Zildjian Avedis Stamp Boot Camp
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- A quick introduction to how to tell the approximate age of a vintage Zildjian Avedis "A" cymbal from looking at slight telltale differences in the stamp.
This method -cobbled together from various more knowledgeable sources- has served me well over my years as a collector and player of these cymbals, and is hopefully a good starting point for someone looking to learn the basics.
The transition stamp from the 40s are the best. I've a pair of trans stamp hats. They're paper thin - something around 550 grams each. They're just the nicest hats.
That is super light!
If you ever want to sell them, let me know!!!
You should also touch on the size of the stamp. I have an 1 7/8 stamp. I believe that is the mid 50s. 22 med/light ride.
I recently bought a second hand 22" ride that was advertised as 70's, but now I know it's actually 60's after watching your video.
Thanks so much for the info 👍
Sweet find. Do you know the gram weight?
@@CodyWeathers Thanks man. Seems to be about 2900 so I'm guessing it's medium weight for a 22"?...but I'm not sure how accurate my scales are 😆
It's got a keyhole but doesn't seem to be an issue. Sounds really nice but I've only just got it so not gigged it yet. Hopefully soon 🤞
Good quick resource reference. I bought a 20" Zildjian (2420g) from one of my pawn broker friends on Saturday and dated it to a 60s model from the 3 dots and the Co. It has some massive sustain compared to my dry heavy 20 Paiste Signature.
Good find, nice weight. 2400 is a nice sweet spot --lot of good Ringo rides around that weight.
th-cam.com/video/55VY2SG7GBM/w-d-xo.html
Thanks man! I was able to figure out a pair of 14” 70s hats, an early 60’s 22” ride and a 60s 16” crash
Great tutorial THANX. FYI i suffered 2 precious cymbal breaks at the hands of well meaning roadies. 2 Ride cymbals both Ks from the 2os and 3os dropped on the bell which cracked. They sat for years after unused useless UNTILL I found a laser tech for the Porsche Audi industry. He restored both with laser precision repair using material siimlar to the cymbals content. They are alive and well. I have documentation. Just sayin!!
Walking through that story and showing the repairs and how the sound now would be a *great* video. Sounds fascinating! Let me know if you have any footage of the cymbals --I'd love to hear how they're doing....
Thanks! I have the three dots with the underlined little o in Co. I didn’t realize mine was an early 60s!
I actually bought a pair of zildjian hats that the seller told me were from the 60s but they don't have the three dots on the arab logo and the stamp is pretty thin, i think they're from the 70s !
Could you help me to know what the exact decade is?
Thank you !
If the stamp is clear and easy to examine, it sounds like you have a pretty good theory, based on the tells you mention. Freeze this video at 2:08 and compare. Is it thin and also uniform without the 3 dots? Does it look a lot like my example? If so, odds are you've got 70's as you suspected.
@@CodyWeathers
Hi Cody !
Yes, i compared and it's definitely a 70s hat !
I also examined the position of the letters..
👍
Thank you ! 🙏
Thank you so much i think i just bought avedis 70’s set with size 22 ride.
Can you help me tell me what mine is
If you get a good picture of your stamp, just refer to the chart at 3:53 and walk through the on-screen examples with the commentary about what distinguishing features to check, and in which order. If it's still unclear having done that, feel free to follow up here for more specific clarification. Good luck!
So it turns out I have a 40's 22 inch Avidis. I wasn't sure of the year, until you talked about the size of the hole.. Although the hole is slightly out of round it is tiny (it will not fit on a cymbal sleeve) I also have another 60's vintage 14, or 15 inch. If either of these are of interest to you, or anyone else, let me know.
What a great find! While those are cymbals that definitely interest me, I'm strictly a bargain hunter, and you'd probably do best to put it up on your local market or Reverb. Before you do, you'll definitely want to weigh it in grams, take a nice clear picture of the stamp, and check it thoroughly for typical kinds of damage (see this video for a primer on that subject th-cam.com/video/gnOS6qgjiWE/w-d-xo.html )
@@CodyWeathers These keyholed look to go for $6-800 on Reverb, but I've yet to see anything over 20 inches.. If $300 + shipping is a bargain, I'd rather do that, than give a %. 22 inch 19040's 2485 gram if you want it. If not, maybe I'll hold on to it. Less than 20 years, it's an antique
@@bubinga_basher Every market is a little different, but the most I think I could get for a 22" vintage A would be $250. At a glance, I do see some higher listings on Reverb --particularly with the very rare "Big Stamp" (block lettering of the word "Zildjian"), but it does seem like the median price bears out my expectations. That said, 22" is a rare size going further back, and you never know until you try it, so go for it. That's a favorable weight, on the medium-light side for a 22", which is more desirable still. I'm not the right buyer at $300, but you have a good shot at getting that online. Good luck!
@@CodyWeathers I'm exactly the same way as a Paiste collector. Bargains are out there. At the beginning being patient was the hard part, but now I know the max on each size, and model before I even look.
What a great tutorial!
There are so many great Zildjian instruments out there that need good homes - happy hunting!
Thanks for the info Cody - all the best.
Planning on putting my 20" Avedis Zildjian cymbal for sale in a couple days, and this video helped me figure out that it was indeed made in the 60's. Thanks a bunch!
The rolled stamp you refer to is usually called the trans stamp. I think they go up until the early 50s. I have a mismatched pair of trans stamp 12" hi-hat cymbals - one has a regular finish, and the other a brilliant finish. A guy on Cymbalholics, who was one of the few guys dating Zildjian stamps back then, said they were made ~3 years apart. They sound nice together, although I think they're both bottom cymbals, and on the heavier side for something that old (I should weigh them - I can't tell which is heavier). I also did the unthinkable and enlarged the center holes. I didn't do that with my early 50s K ride though. 😉
I also have an early 90s 6" splash that does not have a trademark stamp. I bought it new from a dealer, and a few years ago I sent photos to Zildjian to inquire about this anomaly. They didn't offer an explanation as to why there was no stamp (I guess it was just an oversight), but said they said that, as far as they could tell, it was genuine.
Thanks for the additional info!
Hi Cody, so after watching your vid I raced off and checked my Zildjians. I have a 21” (which I’ve always called a Rock Ride) weighs 2600gm. It has two only ‘bottom dots’. With the magnifying glass I am confident that I can’t see where a 3rd dot might have been stamped or worn away. Do you know of such a cymbal? It has the large C and small o.
Do you mean that in the u-shaped location where you might expect to see 3 dots you only see 2? If so I'd treat it as 3 for identification purposes. Stamps can fade, especially if the cymbal endured an abrasive cleaning.
Yes in the U shape section, only 2 dots, thanks for the info mate, cheers.
Can you talk about cymbals that LOOK like Zildjians.... but perhaps were non-stamped?? I've got a 16" hammered that looks SO much like a Z from the 60s... but no stamp. Same patina, same lathing, same hammering, same basic thickness, same sound. MYSTERY CYMBAL! lol.
It's a good question, but a tricky business. First, it's not uncommon for stamps to be faded and difficult to spot, particularly if the cymbals have been polished. When I've been in the position that I absolutely cannot find even a recognizable sliver of the stamp to verify it as a Zildjian, then I look for secondary indicators, all of which I want to be pointing to the same conclusion.
1. Color: as you've noted, the Zildjian B20 alloy has a recognizable hue. However, it's not unique enough to by itself identify a cymbal as Zildjian, but without the hue and without a stamp, that's a big strike against...
2. Lathing: Avedis lathing has a fairly consistent look and spacing in my experience that should be present to continue thinking of the cymbal as potentially Zildjian
3. Shape: while there is some variation, most Zildjians of the era have similar bell height and ratio of bell diameter by type. This is another "looks Zildjian" factor that can't rule something in, but could make it less likely if it doesn't match
4. Taper: related to shape, there's a specific point about 3" from the edge (roughly where my thumb and forefinger can reach inwards to pinch) on rides where the thick inner disc plunges out and tapers to the fine outer edge.
5. Block ink: if you spot telltale Zildjian block lettering for the old cymbal type, that's a rule-in for both Zildjian as the maker and vintage as the era.
Finally, keep in mind that Zildjian B-stocks were branded and released under alternate brands such as Zilco, and these can be for all intents and purposes just as good, and very similar in appearance.
Does anyone else have some points of comparison in this scenario?
@@CodyWeathers I went to your page - no email listed or private way to send you pics. I don't know what ppl see when they go to my page - is there a way to email me from it? I'll send you pics.
@@user-ig7nq7pc7k I'll reach out to you on FB via your musician page
Wow thanks I was finally able to date a Zildjian 15" with rivets cymbal I have to the early 1960's. I found it in somebody's garbage along with a 15" Zenjian heavy hand-hammered cymbal that I use for my best hi-hat pairing.
Where can I sell my 26" Avedis ride with 50s hollow ZILDJIAN mark?
@@johnhawkinshawkins1284 Reverb is a good option
60s here. Needed a powerful magnifying glass since it wasn’t stamped on too hard or possibly a little rubbed off from stick usage from the previous owner.
Been there. More and more I'm using my reading glasses to double check for the dots...
Paul Francis said that before laser engraving they had a couple of different stamping machines and whoever was stamping a cymbal just went to the nearest free machine, so it puts to question a lot of what we know about dating old As...
Excellent!!!! 🤓👌👌👌👌
I have a thin 15 inch small-hole Zildjian that my dad found at a rummage sale back in the 70s. The Nashville session drummer Kenny Malone, who just died recently, told me in the 80s at a Drum shop, that the small hole indicated it was from the 40s or earlier. It has a much "flatter" Bell or Cup. The poor guy doesn't sound that good, though. Suffering from "metal fatigue" I'm sure, even though it is still uncracked. It's worn out! Thanks for the info.
I'd be curious what the weight is on that. Could be orchestral/parade if on the heavier side.
@@CodyWeathers I don't have a digital scale (or an analog for that matter) but I'll look to weigh it when I get the chance. Definitely thin, very flexible, but no "shimmer". Being quite toneless, I use it as a bottom to my closed mounted "trash-hats" (80s K on top with a Roto Tom 'spoxe' nested in between). A bass player once called em' "Stank-Hats"...in a GOOD way! It's an Avedis, with a slightly smaller STAMP compared with one of my 60s era Zildjians.
I have a Zildjian logo AMIR STAR MOON & SABER ANY THOUGHTS ABOUT AGE VALUE. 18" Crash Thanks
I've owned several different examples of three different kinds of Amir: Block letter ink (c.1981-82), script letter ink (c.1984), and script Amir II ink (?86?). I don't know if the stamp is any different between those, I believe they all had the moon & saber and all caps AMIR, but I could be wrong. Amir was the precursor to cymbals like the ZXT. The ones I've seen are B8 alloy bronze as opposed to B20, and will appear more cupric or penny-colored than the Avedis A cymbals. The Block & Script Amirs tend to be well-made and have a nice character depending on weight. 18" is a tricky size without knowing the weight because if intended as a crash-ride, it may --in my limited experience-- have a pretty shallow taper and be hard to light up as a finishing crash. That is certainly a weakness of the B8 Zildjian crash rides to follow, as a rule. Amir II are well made, but taking the same kind of budget-saving steps a ZBT would. Amirs are tricky to price because while they're (IMO) nicer on the whole than their contemporary cousins, they're not in the same class for complexity as the A's, and there isn't a thriving market for them. Market to market will vary, but I think it goes kind of like this for an 18" where I live (Portland, OR):
Block/Script Amir 18": $50-$75, Amir II: $40-$60
That's what I predict I could ultimately sell one for in my market, though if the thing sounded phenomenal, I'd try to get it to sell itself for a little more, maybe $80. I think I'd sit on it forever if I wanted $100. If I were buying, I'd want to find it for less than $40 ($25 for the Amir II)
I have an 18” thin crash with an Arabic stamp that says Zildjan Avedis Genuine Turkish cymbal so I’m trying to figure out more about it. Sounds good
Well I actually learned I have A LOT of old cymbals, and there is one I wonder if you could help tell me what the year is. The stamp is quite large on it and actually looks almost as if the letters and logo were stamped by hand. I do know for sure it is very very old.
Well, my stamp isn't very clear anymore but it looks like a 20 inch ride from the 60s. I didn't know it was a zildjian when I bought it but it sounds very nice.
Nice. Two readily-available magnification tricks I use when stamps ate hard to make out: reading glasses and zooming in with my phone. Not always enough, but often does the trick
@@CodyWeathers Yup, the phone trick sort of did the job. The word Zildijan is almost gone though. At least the important bits were still readable.
Well this is cool and interesting BUT regarding the generational differences of the cymbal were they also using different bronze formulas?
Thanks. Good question. For all intents and purposes, the specific proprietary B20 Zildjian alloy is the same across these decades under discussion. Even if there are slight metallurgical differences, those are undetectable to the naked eye insofar as identification and dating are concerned. Certainly, there are some other lines forged in B8 bronze with different stamps entirely that you can encounter (e.g., the Amir line), and the difference in hue of the more cupric alloy should be apparent even before examining the stamp.
@@CodyWeathers Ahh. Ok,, I have used Zildjians for many years and currently have a set of K hi hats that are nice and My Mini cup ride which is a longtime favorite-- I also had a dark K ride for a while but eventually let that go-- I purchased a Masterworks 20 in Jazz ride just recently and it’s very nice- every bit as good as the K was with a more complex sound -- Also they are using a B25 alloy and I wonder what that is,,, not that I know what B20 is !!! As far as B8 goes,,,, No I just don’t want to have anything to do with that line.
@@ambroulard B8 vs B20 vs B25 refers to the percent of non-copper (mostly tin) in the bronze. B8 is 92% copper, B20 is 80% Cu, B25=75% Cu and so on. Most pro-grade cymbals are some form of B20 (Paiste 2000 lines being a notable exception), and the Zildjian alloy for the A lines is their own B20 recipe. I hadn't heard of anyone making B25 before --I'll have to take a look at that!
Very nice.
I have 70’s cymbals, thx for the info
They started laser etching in 1994.
Thanks! Just identified my hats as an early 60's pair :)
2 dots instead of 3?
Are you asking how to interpret a 2-dot pattern in the location where I'm telling you to look for a triangle of 3 dots?
awesome video! straight to the point. thank you
It seems like mine are from the mid late 60s!
Nice! Sounds like you've got a set? What cymbals are we talking about? Ride/crash/hats?
@@CodyWeathers 2 Avedis 22” ride cymbals!
@@Luisifer_89 jealous --do you know the gram weights? It's funny: 60's 22" are one of those items I've always got an eye out for, and only rarely come across. I guess it's because you and @Ctrain Ugly are hogging the supply ;)
@@CodyWeathers yes sir! 😉 the one made mid 50s is brilliant and weights 2476 grams the Other one made in 60s weights 2481 grams!
Excellent video man. Thanks for taking the time to do this.. It's very useful info to have for the industry. Funny enough, I wasn't even searching for this, but YT used my collected data and it scratched an itch I've had for a while, so I'm not mad. Keep it cool buddy! 🤘
Thanks! Every now and then the algorithm gets it right ;)
Good stuff. Thank you.
Don't forget the Canadian B-stocks branded with the Zilco name.
Great point. I don't come across them often, but you're absolutely right --they're "Zildjians hiding in plain sight"
Talk about double stamps. Where the stamp was struck twice
I've never seen one myself, but they are factory anomalies, so when it comes to dating them, the same guidelines would work. The stamp struck twice should still have the same telltale characteristics as if it was struck once.
@@CodyWeathers i have a pair of signed double stamped k's i bought in 1970. Used them my whole life, along with th a's i bought at the same time. The a's are somewhere about 65-68 i think. Never really thought about it much, they were/are my tools. Then one day i happened across a website about zildian cymbals. Didnt take long to realize just what a treasure i have. Replacing them today would be almost impossible. Both for their rarity and cost.
@@CodyWeathers thanks for this video.
4:05 i have these hihats
Thanks for the info !
Very helpful 👍🏼
Thanks for the video! Actually, according to Paul Francis, both pronunciations are correct.
Whew! I'm doing better than I thought!
@@CodyWeathers Hah! Actually, I just went back and tried to find the video, and I could have been wrong. The video I found talked about the pronunciation of "Kerope". Oh well!
Why does this matter so much, in the end it's all about the sound right?
They're not mutually exclusive: I think both matter (and other considerations as well). I want to know how a cymbal sounds, but I also would like to know how old it is.
Given your comment, I gather you don't have any real interest in the vintage market, which is fine, of course. But I'm sure you also understand that there is a vintage market, and that within that market, the relative values are to some degree determined by age, and therefore it becomes important to accurately identify and verify the age of a cymbal you're evaluating.
And while I don't expect it to be persuasive to you, I will add that one reason to delve into the vintage Zildjian market is that it contains a different variety of sonic options from the contemporary. For example, there are more thin, smoky, crashable rides in the vintage market than in the modern market, in my experience. And in that sense, it does indeed come back around to finding a sound you like.
Good luck out there!
@@CodyWeathers yes, but I don't quite anderstand why the age of the cymbal makes the price vary, unelss for rarity maybe? and to your surprice I'm also interested in vintage stuff, If we can call it that, I use a sonor 2000
@@felix720p yes, that's the short answer: rarity. Vintage gear has a lower ratio of supply to demand. Age, condition, unique/rare features, and characteristics such as weight and diameter all factor into the relative value of a cymbal, but ultimately, most buyers who intend to play the cymbal make their final decision based on how it sounds.
y si lo haces en español??
Creo que acabo de agregar una traducción al español en los subtítulos. Tuve que usar el traductor de Google porque solo hablo un poquito de español, así que avíseme si tiene sentido. ¡Gracias!
After watching your video I just bought three Zildjian cymbals: a 22”, 18” & 13” hi hats from the 50s & 60s.
I paid a very fair price and could not be more happy to have a fantastic lineup for my jazz kit.
Thank you 😊