As a composer (of adventure modules), Gygax loved parallelism and 'variations on a theme'. For the three D-series modules, the first part of each module is an introduction to the Underdark setting and wandering encounter tables. The second part is roughly three 'set piece' planned encounters. The first of the three is an introduction - a 'taste of the villain' for the players to know who they are fighting and foreshadow the climactic battle at the third encounter. In D1, this first taste is the Drow Guardpost at Hex D3, while in D2 it is the river crossing at Hex W27. Unless the party has run into a wandering priest, pilgrim, or war party encounter in the first seven mile hexes of the module, this is likely to be the first time they have encountered a Kuo-Toa and thus sets them up for the climactic third encounter (third-act) battle with Kuo-Toa at the Shrine, just as the Drow outpost at D3 presaged the cavern complex at Hex Q13. The second encounter in both D1 and D2 is the diversion: "here is another underdark race you probably don' know about". Interesting at the very least for atmosphere, and a hook for DMs who wish to expand on it and introduce another faction to the drama playing out, but ultimately it can be played as a one-off or even avoided altogether. In D1, this second planned encounter was the mind flayers in M12, while in D2 it is a group of hidden Deep Gnomes at Hex AA31. I hadn't considered the deep gnomes as a trap and that is an interesting idea. The original text says that upon reaching this intersection, not the first intersection of main passages they have passed, the party "will not see any creatures or hear any noise, but there are 8 Deep Gnomes (as described previously under random encounters) watching them from hiding. If the party stops and searches the area -or calls out in friendly terms- the Svitfnebli leader will show himself and offer the peace sign, recognizing the party as creatures from the upper world." At face value it seems rather unlikely that a party has any within-game reason to either search the area (it's just an intersection) or call out (to whom?). Perhaps what Gygax considered 'good playing' included meta-awareness, like the fact that simply describing "the multitude of openings available to the party, and indicat[ing] that this area is faintly lit by the glowing lichens and phosphorescent streaks of mineral in the walls of the passageway", should have been enough to hint to them that some greater interaction was expected in the area. Or that on the player's map conveniently dropped by the 'fleeing drow' this particular hex has a border around it but no recorded symbol - a clue that they are supposed to investigate? In D3, the "introductory" set piece is the Gates, presaging the third act Vault. The middle, avoidable, encounters are the succubus / vampires and/or spiders.
I mean, that's kind of a running theme. The PCs should avoid the Fane of Lolth and go smear the Eilservs/Tormtor gathered at The Temple of the Eye instead because its that faction, not Lolth's, that started the conflict on the surface. Its the Elder Elemental God that is the threat. Sadly, that thread got completely dropped from both The Temple of Elemental Evil and the G/D-series when we got Q1....
Our party never had a chance to make a deal… our halfling warrior climbed the statue, in full view of stunned, aghast Kuo-Toa, and plucked out the gemstone eyes. Total war ensued of course. My human fighter was the mapper and I took careful note of how many of the fish men we slew. 494 Kuo-Toans paid the price of being in the path of our group. I admit feeling a little remorseful that upon finishing the slaughter, and looking at the map, I realized we could have just walked through the shrine and kept going without a drop of blood shed. Ah well, in the words of Thulsa Doom, must have been when I was younger (this did happen in the mid 80s…). Happily enough and of significance to this video, we did end up adventuring with Trosli Garnetgetter for a while; he’s still a valued friend and ally. He and some of his svirfneblin kin keep watch over some of the deep roads under our holdings, and manage some construction projects. I think a couple of us might also have some gnome healing packets (5- 12 hp - not bad! - but rather dry to the taste) still in pencil on our character sheets.
I'd say that's less of a trap and more of a quest hook, but yeah, it's definitely there to encourage the PCs to make Bad Decisions. But that's a classic part of the fantasy genre; look at how the plot to _The Hobbit_ kicks off.
Look, as with every channel I subscribe to, I absolutely cannot afford to become a channel member, or subscribe to anyone's Patreon. I will never again pay for entertainment-- mostly because I can't afford to. I'm too cheap to even sign up for a streaming service, which is why I sail the High Seas. I download and buy your modules, but I absolutely cannot justify paying a premium for "exclusive content," when have to budget my daily food intake! I know you're just trying to make a living here, but for me, earning money doing a hobby just isn't possible. Somebody's still gotta make the donuts!
He's not asking people in your situation to pay -- he's asking people like me. I'm the one that ought to feel bad. Never you. 'Like' and 'Subscribe' and comment and that helps the channel tremendously. That's all he's hoping from most folks. From Grognards like me, however, well, I blush and avert my eyes each time, hoping he won't call me out by name.
This is an interesting idea, and it's something I never thought about. That said, respectfully, it's not how I would D.M. the module (which is OK, different strokes and all that). I think that, given that the PC's are dealing with drow AND kuo-toa AND mind flayers AND purple worms AND troglodytes AND bugbears AND random liches in caves and so much else, giving them ONE natural ally seems fair. Moreover, as much as the Svirfneblin love gems, they must know it would be near-suicide trying to get the ones right in the middle of the shrine. As I mentioned in another comment, when I D.M.ed this series, by the end of it the PC's led a small army of Svirfneblin mercenaries, grateful escaped slaves, and a couple of unlikely allies, including a beholder that hated the drow. This obviously wasn't enough to conquer the drow completely, but it was enough to harry them and have a reasonable chance of survival.
Hey, just ordered both your new books and the Mad Archmage dungeon. Hoping they are good, cause now I am broke. Lol. Reviews will be upcoming. Thanks Joe!
I don't know about this being a trap, *per se,* so much as providing an additional option for how the party may approach dealing with the Shrine. Let us suppose that the party includes a Paladin. What are the odds he is going to be willing to do anything to the evil Kuo Toa short of slaughtering the lot of them? If the party is bent on mayhem rather than diplomacy, the Svirfneblin can provide some useful muscle, at the cost of some of the treasure. =^[.]^=
As the Kuo Toan Admiral Ackbaripoolpp quoted 'its a trap!'
Gnomes. They belong on lawns. Not the battlefield.
They make great lawn dart targets
As a composer (of adventure modules), Gygax loved parallelism and 'variations on a theme'. For the three D-series modules, the first part of each module is an introduction to the Underdark setting and wandering encounter tables. The second part is roughly three 'set piece' planned encounters. The first of the three is an introduction - a 'taste of the villain' for the players to know who they are fighting and foreshadow the climactic battle at the third encounter. In D1, this first taste is the Drow Guardpost at Hex D3, while in D2 it is the river crossing at Hex W27. Unless the party has run into a wandering priest, pilgrim, or war party encounter in the first seven mile hexes of the module, this is likely to be the first time they have encountered a Kuo-Toa and thus sets them up for the climactic third encounter (third-act) battle with Kuo-Toa at the Shrine, just as the Drow outpost at D3 presaged the cavern complex at Hex Q13.
The second encounter in both D1 and D2 is the diversion: "here is another underdark race you probably don' know about". Interesting at the very least for atmosphere, and a hook for DMs who wish to expand on it and introduce another faction to the drama playing out, but ultimately it can be played as a one-off or even avoided altogether. In D1, this second planned encounter was the mind flayers in M12, while in D2 it is a group of hidden Deep Gnomes at Hex AA31. I hadn't considered the deep gnomes as a trap and that is an interesting idea.
The original text says that upon reaching this intersection, not the first intersection of main passages they have passed, the party "will not see any creatures or hear any noise, but there are 8 Deep Gnomes (as described previously under random encounters) watching them from hiding. If the party stops and searches the area -or calls out in friendly terms- the Svitfnebli leader will show himself and offer the peace sign, recognizing the party as creatures from the upper world."
At face value it seems rather unlikely that a party has any within-game reason to either search the area (it's just an intersection) or call out (to whom?). Perhaps what Gygax considered 'good playing' included meta-awareness, like the fact that simply describing "the multitude of openings available to the party, and indicat[ing] that this area is faintly lit by the glowing lichens and phosphorescent streaks of mineral in the walls of the passageway", should have been enough to hint to them that some greater interaction was expected in the area. Or that on the player's map conveniently dropped by the 'fleeing drow' this particular hex has a border around it but no recorded symbol - a clue that they are supposed to investigate?
In D3, the "introductory" set piece is the Gates, presaging the third act Vault. The middle, avoidable, encounters are the succubus / vampires and/or spiders.
The Party should not want to mess with the Kua-Toa, considering their mission.
I mean, that's kind of a running theme. The PCs should avoid the Fane of Lolth and go smear the Eilservs/Tormtor gathered at The Temple of the Eye instead because its that faction, not Lolth's, that started the conflict on the surface. Its the Elder Elemental God that is the threat. Sadly, that thread got completely dropped from both The Temple of Elemental Evil and the G/D-series when we got Q1....
Our party never had a chance to make a deal… our halfling warrior climbed the statue, in full view of stunned, aghast Kuo-Toa, and plucked out the gemstone eyes.
Total war ensued of course. My human fighter was the mapper and I took careful note of how many of the fish men we slew. 494 Kuo-Toans paid the price of being in the path of our group. I admit feeling a little remorseful that upon finishing the slaughter, and looking at the map, I realized we could have just walked through the shrine and kept going without a drop of blood shed. Ah well, in the words of Thulsa Doom, must have been when I was younger (this did happen in the mid 80s…).
Happily enough and of significance to this video, we did end up adventuring with Trosli Garnetgetter for a while; he’s still a valued friend and ally. He and some of his svirfneblin kin keep watch over some of the deep roads under our holdings, and manage some construction projects. I think a couple of us might also have some gnome healing packets (5- 12 hp - not bad! - but rather dry to the taste) still in pencil on our character sheets.
Ah, brings back memories of Wiglet the Deep Gnome, who became a henchman of one of the PCs when I DM'd this series.
Tricksee little buggers!
We should never forget when Hasbro sic'd the Pinkertons on a FAN OF THEIR OWN PRODUCTS!
I would like to know the whole story on that. There is probably a lot more to it than we know.
The deep gnomes are the effin Pinkertons of the underdark.
I appreciate that you, also, have difficulty pronouncing Svirfneblin on the first try.
Just goes to prove, that no matter how much you think those Gnomes are friendly... .
That is an excellent bit of insight, Grognard! I will certainly remember that if I ever get another chance to DM that module. :)
“It’s gnomes now!”
“They’re organized!”
-Chicken Run
Yeah, but imagine if you did rob the shrine, and got away with it!
Little Gnomish bastards! But, they are Neutral after all... 🤔😁
Neutral Good. ='[.]'=
@@Raycheetah only good TENDENCIES. That's N(g)
Down with the Pinkertons! Thank you for more great content and little tidbits. Love your channel!
I'd say that's less of a trap and more of a quest hook, but yeah, it's definitely there to encourage the PCs to make Bad Decisions.
But that's a classic part of the fantasy genre; look at how the plot to _The Hobbit_ kicks off.
Don't trust the Deep Gnomes. Got it. I may, though, have to change my plans for Tuesday night.
Must have a hot date with a short girl....
Look, as with every channel I subscribe to, I absolutely cannot afford to become a channel member, or subscribe to anyone's Patreon. I will never again pay for entertainment-- mostly because I can't afford to. I'm too cheap to even sign up for a streaming service, which is why I sail the High Seas. I download and buy your modules, but I absolutely cannot justify paying a premium for "exclusive content," when have to budget my daily food intake!
I know you're just trying to make a living here, but for me, earning money doing a hobby just isn't possible. Somebody's still gotta make the donuts!
He's not asking people in your situation to pay -- he's asking people like me. I'm the one that ought to feel bad. Never you. 'Like' and 'Subscribe' and comment and that helps the channel tremendously. That's all he's hoping from most folks. From Grognards like me, however, well, I blush and avert my eyes each time, hoping he won't call me out by name.
This is an interesting idea, and it's something I never thought about. That said, respectfully, it's not how I would D.M. the module (which is OK, different strokes and all that). I think that, given that the PC's are dealing with drow AND kuo-toa AND mind flayers AND purple worms AND troglodytes AND bugbears AND random liches in caves and so much else, giving them ONE natural ally seems fair. Moreover, as much as the Svirfneblin love gems, they must know it would be near-suicide trying to get the ones right in the middle of the shrine.
As I mentioned in another comment, when I D.M.ed this series, by the end of it the PC's led a small army of Svirfneblin mercenaries, grateful escaped slaves, and a couple of unlikely allies, including a beholder that hated the drow. This obviously wasn't enough to conquer the drow completely, but it was enough to harry them and have a reasonable chance of survival.
I’m sure this encounter played out this way to the chagrin of many PCs.
Similar thing with the deep gnomes the night below campaign...
Hey, just ordered both your new books and the Mad Archmage dungeon. Hoping they are good, cause now I am broke. Lol. Reviews will be upcoming. Thanks Joe!
Thanks so much! When the reviews drop, let me know and I can promote them on my social media.
Very interesting.
I don't remember Svirfneblin in the Mighty Ducks sequel, but perhaps I wasn't looking hard enough.
I think they were only in the director's cut.
th-cam.com/video/kO4DPI1hegc/w-d-xo.html
I don't know about this being a trap, *per se,* so much as providing an additional option for how the party may approach dealing with the Shrine. Let us suppose that the party includes a Paladin. What are the odds he is going to be willing to do anything to the evil Kuo Toa short of slaughtering the lot of them? If the party is bent on mayhem rather than diplomacy, the Svirfneblin can provide some useful muscle, at the cost of some of the treasure. =^[.]^=
Couldn’t they just mug a few Drow ?? Asking for a gnome illusionist..
Or building very weird machines.