This is facts. Different reasons &/ incentives for different players. I've maintained 40 plus duals for long time. I play with them and when I'm too busy to do so, they do not haunt me while in there deckbox or binders. Many of us been around since the beginning and our perspective of value have many layers .
Keep doing what you do Bro, i love your content, and you are one of the most informative sources today for old school MTG. THANK YOU!! Edit** I'm one of those 30-40k players of old school MTG
Dan, Rudy and I are still friends, talk almost every day. I still collab with both of them from time to time. As for Unhinged Magi, Dan only needs to make the time to invite me over to film. It will happen I'm sure.
Great point and very true. Kinda sad because we cannot see what that final price was. We just know it was less. Needs to be considered when figuring out prices.
The easiest answer is Ebay from an account with good feedback. There will be some fear about the packs being fake or pre-opened etc. You can mitigate that fear from hitting a sale price by putting more effort into the sale. The more effort options involve contacting people who are trusted and can verify what is being sold or sell it for you. Or perhaps having a middle person as an escrow service to verify the goods before passing on to the buyer. The more effort path could be totally worth it depending on how much you found.
on 2/2 i noticed CK had an alpha timetwister available, i put togeter a buylist order to get the card and before i submitted check h just in case card was no longer available. it wasn't. that was 12k + ask
Ug, that was painful I'm sure. Sorry bro. Well the good news is if you really wanted an Alpha twist that badly I'm sure you could sell 80% of those same cards and pile up enough cash to buy one from a face to face trusted person in one of the FB groups.
Especially great information Edwin!! Wearing a MTGMOXMAN T? Where's your ETME T? :) Yeah, pricing anything with low sales volumes can be difficult. Most sales are essentially a seller finding a buyer willing to pay their sale price. Sometimes it's a buyer finding a seller willing to sell at a buy price. If only the MTG card market was as big as the collectible coin market, we might have more readily available accurate pricing information such as the CDN Greysheet for wholesale pricing. That brings up another nuance. Selling to a "dealer" is quite different than selling to a collector/consumer. Where are you looking to get liquidity from? Great thought-provoking video upload Edwin! Thanks for posting!
Agree, not sure people quite understand how much the old school format affects these card prices. The correlation from when that format took hold and the price spikes is striking. Probably didn’t help much when half of the stock shipped over to Europe around that same time.
Agreed. People seem to commonly attribute the price increases 100% to Bitcoin. I know that played a role, but it was only part of it. My opinion is that Old School format started, and was creating real demand for cards. Bitcoin money came in and threw gas on the already lit fire.
I wish I could find those Old School players. There are no events near me, and if there are, I am not in their FB Groups or Discord groups or however they keep in touch with each other. The big events are always so far away, and I am not so well-off that I can travel to Europe for a tournament. That said, I'm sure there are many more like me who have cards, but don't have the contacts or the time to get games in.
Hello! You can most definitely get involved and get some games in if you want to. I can help you connect with the FB groups and Discord channels. Then all you need is a pc and a webcam and you can play with people over the internet. Time of course you will need, but playing at match at your home is super convenient
The amount of research in pricing older cards is so much more time consuming than newer stuff. Other rare items such as old print sheets and limited edition Magic items like playmats, etc. can take quite a bit of research to get a value assigned as well.
I think it is closer to 2,500-4,000 (likely the lower end of that range) than your 25,000-40,000 claim. I base this primarily on old school magic tournament attendance. You tend to see the same names again and again, even in global online events.
@@hangryherbivore what you are describing is the extremely active players, not how many old schoolers there are. Think of it like this… WoTC claims there are 40 million Magic players around the world. Ever seen 400,000 MTG players at a single event? Because that would be only 1%. No you see 5k to 15k tops at a single event. Most MTG players never enter tournaments. They never attend events. But they still own cards, they still play games, they still watch videos about it. Do they count? YES! Especially when you are trying to gauge demand and they are buying cards. I easily know 10 times more old school players who never attend events than those who do. Or just take my channel for example… 8500 subs… do you really think those are not primarily Old School players who subscribe to me? Is it reasonable to assume less then 25% of old school players know me and subscribe to me? Because that would mean 34k total My own experience matches this too. I have 8500 subs but meet old schoolers all the time who don’t know me. Or think about how many old schoolers have a playset of bazaars? Would you say less than 10%. Because with 20k bazaars printed that is 5000 playsets and 10% owning them would be 50k players total Is it likely that most Old Schoolers are subscribed to Open Boosters or Power9Quest? Because they each have over 60k subs. Point is, every way I look at it seems to come back with numbers in the range I suggested. But it’s not hard facts… it’s more like 30 squishy facts all adding up to a common answer. So I was careful to say it’s my belief and I’m guessing. For you, your primary mistake is overlooking those who play and buy cards but don’t do events
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I buy cards but do not play, i just like to collect, i played long ago. I am not a hoarder, i lose interest after i have one or two copies of a card i really like, but some collectors just never stop, and then there are the investors. I have 48 duals, 9 pieces of power 9 (duplicate lotus, ancestral and ruby, missing sapphire jet and time walk), a library, two workshops, two candelabra, two bazaars. So, 5000 playsets of bazaar, maybe 20% lost forever (fire, water, earthquake, stolen and thief had to ditch the evidence, ...), thats 4000 left. Now i would assume only 30% of these see at least occasional play, thats 1200 left, the rest sitting with collectors, investors and dealers or they are graded and slabbed. Now these 1200 are somehow split between vintage and oldschool, i see more of them in vintage, less of them in oldschool, while some players play both and swap them between decks, but these might also own 2 playsets or have a few extra. So maybe 600 playsets maximum are in oldschool decks, maybe less? Opinions, educated guesses, but i think your guesses are all a bit too rosy. 5000 playsets printed certainly means far less are in oldschool decks, as opposed to being in vintage decks or collections or graded and slabbed or lost to time or sitting with a vendor somewhere.
Active players is not an important data point except to tournament organizers. Just having an active player base is attractive to collectors, since they could go to play, not that they actually will. Like people could track their Ferrari, not that they ever will
@@D0012D13 Honestly, I completely welcome devils advocate perspective. If I cannot defend my positions and beliefs, perhaps it's me who is wrong... right? I'm completely open to critical questions. Which is 100% different from somebody just being a troll and being negative without real substance, or being unwilling to recognize good arguments being made on the other side. So which are you? Honestly negative with valid opposition? Or are you just a troll looking for something to crap all over? If you are serious, bring your best arguments. I'm ready, and I'll give you the best honest answers I can.
Clickbait. Who is this for? If it’s for people whos cards have volume - duh. If it’s for people whose cards don’t then you have misinformation. You said mox sapphire beta is 6-15k. Where’d you get 15 from? Not the sources you mentioned in your video. You got that I expect from private party sales and post info. Why didn’t you talk about those pricing sources?
Clickbait? In what way exactly is the entire video not about what the title stated? I'm making the point that old cards don't have volume of trades, therefore you need to be skeptical and look deeper. I thought that was pretty clearly stated. When I said Mox Sapphire 6k-15k that was off the top of my head from the last numbers I saw. Then when I looked around it ended up being closer to 7k-20k. So my last insight was not that far off, but the data was verified live in the video. What is the problem with that? Talking about private sources of information is a touchy subject.. I tried to walk that line by letting people know where those private sources can be found. But not directly expose anybody or call out names etc. You seem pretty negative and to have missed the many of the points. Since you are the only one giving this feedback I have to wonder if something else is bugging you?
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer maybe bc people who care about the info already know (hopefully) and those who don’t, don’t know they don’t know. I didn’t hear any insight on how to price cards like mox sapphire and when it ended, that’s when I was annoyed to make a post. You explain the problems pricing low volume cards, but give no solutions. eBay is also often way off-even for sold cards. As far as I can tell, the solution is none. The answer is you can’t. Same as pricing art. You put it for auction, and pray. Not really but sort of really. You don’t answer your own question (the hard question not the easy one) but give some maybes which you know aren’t 100% true. That’s why I call clickbait.
@@ken90017 Dude, did you actually pay attention to the video? I summarized the entire message at 22:13 The summary again is this... it's now difficult to price the old cards. There is no simple answer anymore. You have to check many places for prices and be very skeptical of the data you see. You need to understand what makes good and bad data. Most of the video is showing examples and talking about what makes for good and bad data, and what things to watch out for.
@@laneabdulla9748 Yeah this guy seems pretty negative to my video and I'm not sure why. The claims he's making are pretty easily disproven which makes me think he's just irritated about something else and dumping on anything he can.
BOOMSTICK! welcome back Edwin.
Thanks bro, and thanks for continuing all this time making your great content as well.
I found a bunch of unopened packs in a storage unit I wanna know how to sell them and to who?
This is facts. Different reasons &/ incentives for different players.
I've maintained 40 plus duals for long time. I play with them and when I'm too busy to do so, they do not haunt me while in there deckbox or binders.
Many of us been around since the beginning and our perspective of value have many layers .
Great to have you back again! :) keep your content coming!
Thanks for sticking around :)
Thanks for sharing, this info will be important for other collectibles and tcgs in the years to come!
So glad to see more content from you Edwin! Missed you!
Thx bro
Keep doing what you do Bro, i love your content, and you are one of the most informative sources today for old school MTG. THANK YOU!!
Edit** I'm one of those 30-40k players of old school MTG
It's good to see that you are active again on your own channel. What happened to your collaboration channel before?
Dan, Rudy and I are still friends, talk almost every day. I still collab with both of them from time to time.
As for Unhinged Magi, Dan only needs to make the time to invite me over to film. It will happen I'm sure.
On Ebay sold listings there is typically a strikethrough the price with a note that says "best offer accepted" when an item sells for a best offer.
Great point and very true. Kinda sad because we cannot see what that final price was. We just know it was less. Needs to be considered when figuring out prices.
I got a bunch of unopened packs I found in a storage unit, how do I sell them?
The easiest answer is Ebay from an account with good feedback. There will be some fear about the packs being fake or pre-opened etc. You can mitigate that fear from hitting a sale price by putting more effort into the sale.
The more effort options involve contacting people who are trusted and can verify what is being sold or sell it for you. Or perhaps having a middle person as an escrow service to verify the goods before passing on to the buyer.
The more effort path could be totally worth it depending on how much you found.
My neighbor’s kid stuck a black lotus in his bike spokes and now when he rides past it makes a cool brrrrrr sound
Mine are unopened and we’re sitting in a storage unit since 2011 I know nothing about these but the fact that I wanna sell
I love learning everytime with your vids,rmso cool,thanks Ed!
Great detailed explanations on this one 👍. This’ll help some people. Once again, glad you’re back on the hamster wheel 😊
Thanks man, and thanks for sticking around.
on 2/2 i noticed CK had an alpha timetwister available, i put togeter a buylist order to get the card and before i submitted check h
just in case card was no longer available. it wasn't. that was 12k + ask
Ug, that was painful I'm sure. Sorry bro.
Well the good news is if you really wanted an Alpha twist that badly I'm sure you could sell 80% of those same cards and pile up enough cash to buy one from a face to face trusted person in one of the FB groups.
Glad to see some EtME videos back on the board!
Thanks for sticking around bro :)
Especially great information Edwin!! Wearing a MTGMOXMAN T? Where's your ETME T? :)
Yeah, pricing anything with low sales volumes can be difficult. Most sales are essentially a seller finding a buyer willing to pay their sale price. Sometimes it's a buyer finding a seller willing to sell at a buy price. If only the MTG card market was as big as the collectible coin market, we might have more readily available accurate pricing information such as the CDN Greysheet for wholesale pricing. That brings up another nuance. Selling to a "dealer" is quite different than selling to a collector/consumer. Where are you looking to get liquidity from?
Great thought-provoking video upload Edwin! Thanks for posting!
Great to see you Michael, thanks for sticking around!
Agree, not sure people quite understand how much the old school format affects these card prices. The correlation from when that format took hold and the price spikes is striking. Probably didn’t help much when half of the stock shipped over to Europe around that same time.
Agreed. People seem to commonly attribute the price increases 100% to Bitcoin. I know that played a role, but it was only part of it.
My opinion is that Old School format started, and was creating real demand for cards. Bitcoin money came in and threw gas on the already lit fire.
Asking before the video is over, do you ever use price charting?
Can you be a bit more specific what you mean?
@ to price mtg or any other cards, is it a good source?
@@iGoldenWax is which source a good source.. Obviously you are asking about pricing of cards, but which thing are you asking about specifically?
I wish I could find those Old School players. There are no events near me, and if there are, I am not in their FB Groups or Discord groups or however they keep in touch with each other. The big events are always so far away, and I am not so well-off that I can travel to Europe for a tournament. That said, I'm sure there are many more like me who have cards, but don't have the contacts or the time to get games in.
Hello! You can most definitely get involved and get some games in if you want to. I can help you connect with the FB groups and Discord channels. Then all you need is a pc and a webcam and you can play with people over the internet.
Time of course you will need, but playing at match at your home is super convenient
The amount of research in pricing older cards is so much more time consuming than newer stuff. Other rare items such as old print sheets and limited edition Magic items like playmats, etc. can take quite a bit of research to get a value assigned as well.
EXACTLY correct and exactly the point I was not only trying to make, but showing how I do it.
I bought 2 moxen just so I can say I’ve got moxen….
ahha MTGMOXMAN!! GET ME SOME AMBERS!
👌 'Promo sm'
I think your estimate of how many people are actively playing old school magic is off by an order of magnitude.
What do you think it is and what is your evidence?
I think it is closer to 2,500-4,000 (likely the lower end of that range) than your 25,000-40,000 claim. I base this primarily on old school magic tournament attendance. You tend to see the same names again and again, even in global online events.
@@hangryherbivore what you are describing is the extremely active players, not how many old schoolers there are.
Think of it like this… WoTC claims there are 40 million Magic players around the world. Ever seen 400,000 MTG players at a single event? Because that would be only 1%. No you see 5k to 15k tops at a single event.
Most MTG players never enter tournaments. They never attend events. But they still own cards, they still play games, they still watch videos about it. Do they count? YES! Especially when you are trying to gauge demand and they are buying cards.
I easily know 10 times more old school players who never attend events than those who do. Or just take my channel for example… 8500 subs… do you really think those are not primarily Old School players who subscribe to me? Is it reasonable to assume less then 25% of old school players know me and subscribe to me? Because that would mean 34k total
My own experience matches this too. I have 8500 subs but meet old schoolers all the time who don’t know me.
Or think about how many old schoolers have a playset of bazaars? Would you say less than 10%. Because with 20k bazaars printed that is 5000 playsets and 10% owning them would be 50k players total
Is it likely that most Old Schoolers are subscribed to Open Boosters or Power9Quest? Because they each have over 60k subs.
Point is, every way I look at it seems to come back with numbers in the range I suggested. But it’s not hard facts… it’s more like 30 squishy facts all adding up to a common answer. So I was careful to say it’s my belief and I’m guessing.
For you, your primary mistake is overlooking those who play and buy cards but don’t do events
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer I buy cards but do not play, i just like to collect, i played long ago. I am not a hoarder, i lose interest after i have one or two copies of a card i really like, but some collectors just never stop, and then there are the investors. I have 48 duals, 9 pieces of power 9 (duplicate lotus, ancestral and ruby, missing sapphire jet and time walk), a library, two workshops, two candelabra, two bazaars.
So, 5000 playsets of bazaar, maybe 20% lost forever (fire, water, earthquake, stolen and thief had to ditch the evidence, ...), thats 4000 left. Now i would assume only 30% of these see at least occasional play, thats 1200 left, the rest sitting with collectors, investors and dealers or they are graded and slabbed.
Now these 1200 are somehow split between vintage and oldschool, i see more of them in vintage, less of them in oldschool, while some players play both and swap them between decks, but these might also own 2 playsets or have a few extra. So maybe 600 playsets maximum are in oldschool decks, maybe less?
Opinions, educated guesses, but i think your guesses are all a bit too rosy. 5000 playsets printed certainly means far less are in oldschool decks, as opposed to being in vintage decks or collections or graded and slabbed or lost to time or sitting with a vendor somewhere.
Active players is not an important data point except to tournament organizers. Just having an active player base is attractive to collectors, since they could go to play, not that they actually will. Like people could track their Ferrari, not that they ever will
These nerds think the collective market value of all magic cards is just about m1. Price is what you can sell it for to the greater fool.
If you think everybody spending money on these rare collectible cards are fools, why are you watching videos about it?
@EdwintheMagicEngineer because they are funny to me. Also trying to just be some voice of reason/devil's advocate. Sorry to disrupt the circle jerk.
@@D0012D13 Honestly, I completely welcome devils advocate perspective. If I cannot defend my positions and beliefs, perhaps it's me who is wrong... right? I'm completely open to critical questions.
Which is 100% different from somebody just being a troll and being negative without real substance, or being unwilling to recognize good arguments being made on the other side. So which are you? Honestly negative with valid opposition? Or are you just a troll looking for something to crap all over?
If you are serious, bring your best arguments. I'm ready, and I'll give you the best honest answers I can.
@@D0012D13 well?
Where do you play this “Alpha 40?”
I'm posting a link to the Facebook group, please let me know if you can see the link
facebook.com/groups/2545188669040349
Thats a very exclusive group. I dont want to be part of that gang. I know my limitations
@@timothytiu1333 to be clear I avoid that format too. I want to finish my complete Old School collection before spending cash on Alpha Upgrades
Clickbait. Who is this for? If it’s for people whos cards have volume - duh. If it’s for people whose cards don’t then you have misinformation. You said mox sapphire beta is 6-15k. Where’d you get 15 from? Not the sources you mentioned in your video. You got that I expect from private party sales and post info. Why didn’t you talk about those pricing sources?
Clickbait? In what way exactly is the entire video not about what the title stated?
I'm making the point that old cards don't have volume of trades, therefore you need to be skeptical and look deeper. I thought that was pretty clearly stated.
When I said Mox Sapphire 6k-15k that was off the top of my head from the last numbers I saw. Then when I looked around it ended up being closer to 7k-20k. So my last insight was not that far off, but the data was verified live in the video. What is the problem with that?
Talking about private sources of information is a touchy subject.. I tried to walk that line by letting people know where those private sources can be found. But not directly expose anybody or call out names etc.
You seem pretty negative and to have missed the many of the points. Since you are the only one giving this feedback I have to wonder if something else is bugging you?
@@EdwintheMagicEngineer maybe bc people who care about the info already know (hopefully) and those who don’t, don’t know they don’t know. I didn’t hear any insight on how to price cards like mox sapphire and when it ended, that’s when I was annoyed to make a post. You explain the problems pricing low volume cards, but give no solutions. eBay is also often way off-even for sold cards. As far as I can tell, the solution is none. The answer is you can’t. Same as pricing art. You put it for auction, and pray. Not really but sort of really. You don’t answer your own question (the hard question not the easy one) but give some maybes which you know aren’t 100% true. That’s why I call clickbait.
He showed the prices of 6-15k on eBay considering the one sold for 20k or best offer would likely be 15k or higher.
@@ken90017 Dude, did you actually pay attention to the video?
I summarized the entire message at 22:13
The summary again is this... it's now difficult to price the old cards. There is no simple answer anymore. You have to check many places for prices and be very skeptical of the data you see. You need to understand what makes good and bad data. Most of the video is showing examples and talking about what makes for good and bad data, and what things to watch out for.
@@laneabdulla9748 Yeah this guy seems pretty negative to my video and I'm not sure why. The claims he's making are pretty easily disproven which makes me think he's just irritated about something else and dumping on anything he can.