The fact you even have "book I love but can't ethically recommend" in your vocabulary, and that you regularly use it openly, is such a breath of fresh air in online artistic discourse. Not everything deserves a boycott/silencing over one bad element and we can still learn from and actually enjoy things with problematic elements, as long as we acknowledge them.
yes rita!!!!!! don’t get me wrong i do believe in permanent stepping away WHEN it’s necessary + if an individual is just so traumatized they can’t engage with the problematic person in question. that’s valid. but i also believe in not hastily throwing our community members away. of understanding we are healing and trying. that we can, as marginalized folk unlearning our own oppression, all Arrive together if we give each other a hand. maybe it’s my naivety but i’d rather see the whole person than the half. rather love them with their flaws, for as long as i’m able
Isn’t there a whole genre of “romance” that is about traumatized characters being horrible to each other? People looooove their dark romances about white characters.
That genre of book is called The Vampire Chronicles by Anne Rice And when the tv adaption made the mc black suddenly people were concerned about it romantizing abuse
Lack of conversation about consent in BDSM situations in books is one of my biggest pet peeves! Especially since it's even a fundamental principle of the actual BDSM community (safe, sane, consensual), which just tells me that authors that include BDSM without mention of consent need to do more research/actually don't know anything about it
Whenever I come across a book author who does this-leaves out the important consent part- I fee like they discovered BDSM in fan fiction and that is all they know.
the end of this video was so fucking powerful. I really appreciate you saying that marginalized people deserve nuanced representation. I’ve often seen people criticize marginalized people for things they let oppressors get away with all the time, or expect marginalized people to be perfect representations of their group. Thank you for saying this so powerfully & beautifully.
Is it really that people are expecting them to be perfect/model/ specimens though? Or that people are expecting them to somehow always be starting the race with more of a jump out the gate than those handicapped by (so-to-speak) starting outside-of and/or behind the starting gate?? 🤔 😶 That's what I suddenly find myself wondering. ..😅🙃 👀 ((Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that's any better either way, though.))
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 People expect them to behave in an uncivilized way so they find themselves trying to be perfect to fight that prejudice. Like a tiny misdemeanor would be forgiven in any other subject but it would be blown out of proportion with them.
@@marianaamoedo5942 Yes, but I didn't get the impression that the original commenter was referring exclusively to marginalized people being overly criticial of themselves and/or of other fellow marginalized persons? It isn't only marginalized peoples themselves who sometimes judge marginalized creators less forgivingly than they might judge other creators. And I'm not sure if I think it really always is as simple as people just always overexaggerating every infraction due to racist negative-perceptions/expectations quite like that or overcompensating for that and expecting perfection to counteract it. That's what I was contemplating-IF it might be possible that sometimes the imbalanced/unfair/ judgment comes as much or more from people expecting that marginalized persons[ by default of being marginalized themselves] are somehow automatically more in-tune and/or educated and/or informed or something than other people who aren't so marginalized are, so perhaps sometimes they judge marginalized persons like 'you should have already known better' yet judge others more as if it's somehow almost inevitable or more expected or something that that others who aren't marginalized themselves 'might not have already completely known better yet' or whatever(?). It's still really messed up and definitely needs to change, either way, but in comments left under a video specifically highlighting the importance of nuance I just figured the possibility of that distinction could perhaps be fair enough to consider also. What you speak of has its roots in racially-biased discrimination-but the other thing, which I was wondering if might or might not alternatively also be another possibility, could actually be coming from a misguided but well-intentioned oversight. And the way to address or properly remedy both issues would not necessarily be entirely exactly the same. (..If that makes sense?)
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 I think I get you, thank you for clarifying. I thought about the times you try to drive perfectly because whatever you do you'd be told to go back to the kitchen and imagined how oppressive it would be to have your whole existence like that.
From my perspective, The Hate U Give was a Social Justice 101 class that I needed at the time. I’m a biracial Black girl from an upper-middle class background (grew up in Suburbia) who read the book as a teenager. Due to my privilege, I had not directly experienced a lot of the effects of systemic racism in the USA and thus the book allowed me to better understand the experiences of Black oppression that led to the BLM Movement. The book also gave me a voice/the language to really process the experiences of being Black in America. As someone whose childhood was during the Obama Administration, I was raised with a post-racial perspective: Racism was systemic only in history, and individuals today can/are still be racist but they can educated or avoided. By reading the book I was able to begin understanding how racism is still a systemic issue in the USA, and that police violence towards the Black community is a huge problem that I was just lucky enough to avoid due to where I lived. I also related to the main character and her experiences attending predominantly White schools and facing micro-aggressions.
YES especially on the experience of being radicalized + targeted in predominantly white academic institutions. related to that as well. obvs our perspectives are diff on the text overall, but just wanted to say REALLY appreciate your comment and your feelings are 100% valid.
White authors fully k*ll people and still hit bestseller lists but god forbid BIPOC authors and especially Black authors misspeak in an interview or goof on a detail in their books... It's never easy to "fail" in public and every creative ever takes that brave leap whenever they create, and Black authors have to take that courage to the millionth degree simply because there's already folks around waiting to tear them to shreds for Existing While Black. I love this thoughtful, nuanced video, as I always do when y'all pop up in my sub box!! Love the name change, love y'all!
I love that you mention embracing authors in their humanity. I've also noticed this issue with black reviewers in the book community. When a black reviewer has a problematic take, people talk about their hair, call them ashy, and completely villianize them in threads/quote tweets. Sometimes it'll be one poorly worded sentence or a poorly researched opinion. However, people destroy them, and break them apart.
I'm also always cautious to blame authors, especially debut, for some trope-y and stereotypical decisions knowing how much the publishing industry banks on fetishisation/exoticisation and sexist tropes etc. so who knows how much was edited in and wouldn't appear once they're more established and get to have more say against (let's face it, mostly white) editors
I loved listening to your takes, and I definitely agree with them! I loved The Hate U Give when I first read it, but I've definitely read other books on the topic with more nuance. I will say, I've recommended THUG to multiple conservative relatives and it has actually helped to change their perspectives quite a bit. I loved your take on the misunderstood books, I'm so sick of the double standards in the bookish community! Great video as always ❤️
The Hate You Give is taught to the 10th graders every year in the district I work in and from what I’m told by my colleagues, it was a battle to keep it in the curriculum when the local conservative think tank sued the district on behalf of an angry parent 🙄. I’ve only seen the movie and am planning on reading it this Spring to better support my caseload kiddos, but now plan to watch more criticisms like the one suggested in the video to prepare for more nuanced conversations with students and hopefully colleagues. ❤ Thanks y’all!
@Amanda This is my America by Kim Johnson is one of my current favorites and she has a new book coming out this year as well. I'm in college studying to be an English teacher and I'm always like "I wanna teach this" whenever I finish a really good book. This is my America is definitely up there for sure!
I really appreciate y’all’s super nuanced and balanced reviews of books. I trust y’all’s recommendations more than other reviewers because of this and it also inspires me to reflect more on my own assessments. I’m really grateful, this video was very informative and I’m going to be reflecting and making changes because of it.
UGH ikr. HERES SOME UNDERCELEBRATED BIPOC QUEER RECS DOE: - scourge between stars - space between stars - friday im in love - things we couldn't say - vanished birds - black water sister - rainbow milk
Y’all comparison to how people react and praise Evelyn Hugo with the reactions to Queenie is SOO on point! Also y’all comparison to The Name of the Wind and The Rage of Dragons is perfect. I see so many people tear down Dragons but praise Wind and I always sit there confused. How you like one sexist book but hate the other? The critiques are always about the sexism and it gives fake activism! Never about the writing being horrible, the timeline being confusing, nope none of that. I think the criticism that black authors get from white readers/reviewers stem from the fact that these readers always expect black people to be teaching about something or calling out some wrong doing in society. They expect that so much it’s getting to a point where black people are not allowed to make mistakes or have nuance in discussions because we’re suppose to be “perfect” or striving for perfection. I notice that with authors, reviewers, almost any black celebrity that’s been in the hot seat for anything. People are still talking about Jay Z cheating on Beyoncé but no one is talking about Adam Levine cheating anymore. It’s literally everywhere and sooooo annoying.
The Twilight age thing will always get me because how would a 116 year old person fall in love with a 17 year old??? How does that even make sense? I'm 19 and I would be confused if a 21 year old wanted to date me, let alone a hundred year old vampire 🙄 Stephanie it doesn't add up, why aren't their more vampire stories with a newly-made vampire (like a teen who literally just got turned) falling in love with another teen, instead of these super old vampires falling for young people or young looking people.
Mild Spoilers for Fledgling: I've read Fledgling twice and (for context, I'm currently writing a vampire novel) so I feel like I understand what Octavia was trying to do, and I think the relationships between Shori (the 50 yr old vampire in a child's body) and her human familiars, is very intentional. I definitely think you should read it because there's a clear power imbalance between vampires and human familiars that I think Octavia was fully aware of when she wrote the book. To be honest it's hard to explain without giving more spoilers. But its linked to the idea that human-vampire relationships across vampire fiction (Twilight, The Vampire Diaries, etc) are inherently abusive in some way. I hope this makes sense lol.
Thank y’all for this video! I know there’s a lot of nuance to the issue of representation and this idea that people need to be perfect that many marginalized writers push back on, but I hope this video helps to open up this idea that that can be true for authors, while keeping the door open for readers from the target demographic to have diverging opinions. It probably won’t happen on Book Twitter or BookTok, but maybe there’s hope for BookTube?
THUG was the first time I started to actively think about things going on in the world I reread it during the George Floyd protests and wrote my IB final essay using the book and talking about police brutality It definitely is a stepping stone book because despite me being Black before the book I can admit I wasn’t consciously thinking about these things (when I read it I was in high school aka my first time being in a predominantly white space) I have since expanded on discussing these topics (every essay I’ve had in college so far where I can pick the topic I’ve written about has to do with Blackness or the effect of white supremacy and I love doing so because I am one of few Black English majors here) I love the book for where it got me but it is definitely surface level
Akasha shoving her toy into yalls head while yall talked made me laugh so hard 😂 my dog does the same shit and it's frustrating but also so funny to watch
ooooh this is so interesting!! i haven't read Fledgling, but i was recently introduced to Butler through the story story collection Blood Child and each story came with, like, a small author's note that was super insightful and kind of explained where she comes from as a writer when she approaches concepts like this! There's a story there where a girl and her uncle talk in the aftermath of her negligent mother's demise, and it's slowly revealed that the uncle is also her father and it's MESSED up to think about but Butler, like, takes a very Human perspective towards it and tries to like. talk about how even tho these things are horrible, they still happen to people and people will have different reactions to them based on circumstances, you know? it's like. her note was so interesting to me. It essentially boiled down to her picking up uncomfortable concepts and seeing if she could pull off a meaningful and emotionally compelling story within that framework. Which, like, to be really honest, feels like the point of practicing writing as craft. Like she is by no means downplaying the horrible nature of these situations even as she takes an almost clinical outsider perspective to it as a writer and doesn't interfere with her characters' choices. which is like. honestly genius.
Honestly, this is why Butler is, to this day, my favorite sci-fi writer. I wish she were still here, I'd have loved to see how her writing evolved over time.
I don't think I've ever watched a single video of y'alls without thinking "they are right, and they should say it" and ofc y'all did it yet again with this one. I've been following y'all for so many years now and I'm constantly in awe of how y'all can break down really complex issues/situations to something that is fun to watch, easy to follow and still so nuanced and clever. Y'all have this amazing understanding of books and literature etc that I deeply admire and hope that I one day can achieve myself (and I'm saying this as someone almost done with their master's degree in literature).
I agree, now that the cultural discussion has moved forward from "diversifying the police force" to defunding, THUG has become dated. This happens to media all of the time as media is both a reflection and a creator of our realities and cultural discussions. I don't think it's wrong to say it's time to move on from these novels. If anything, that should be a celebration, it means (hopefully) as a society we're thinking more deeply, grappling with more complexities. It's so upsetting to read a novel or watch a movie and see that nothing has changed. Certainly there will be things that are the same, but hopefully our approach grows and matures and includes more voices. When it comes to social justice books, I would be thoroughly depressed if there were "evergreen" books. It means we are not moving forward, and, despite it all, I still have hope for that. I love this series. It's so important to have these discussions. And just to clarify: by cultural discussions I mean what the powerful group is willing to grapple with, not what oppressed groups are advocating for. As Jonathan's video notes: Baldwin was writing about this in the 1960s. Sometimes, these massive, successful books are often the books that only challenge the status quo a little bit (or not at all). So, I commended Angie Thomas for doing her best to get as much as she could in THUG, but ultimately, there's maybe even an unconscious decision to temper it so that the book can reach more people. This could be editors too. Okay, I'm going to stop fussing with this comment, because I clearly have so many thoughts I can't figure them all out haha.
omg i feel you on having too many thoughts and wanting to over explain bc communicating them clearly is hard and you don’t want to misrepresent your point! personally i think ur comment was simply brilliant and full of heart ❤️
Oh yes, the who can be the best ally contest in goodreads reviews that somehow seems to almost always be on a Black author's debut book is so frustrating. The standard that Black authors get held to by a fair number of readers is unrealistic and unfair, especially given the overwhelming whiteness of the publishing world they have to trudge through just to get their book published. Great video, great conversation. Thank y'all for all these problematic book/author videos.
I am so grateful for the recommendation for Lightseekers! It was so good and so important! I was blown away by how Kayode talks about mass manipulation and crowd violence. For me, the mental illness was an important part of the story but not a disrespectful gimmick. I felt like it was introduced at the beginning and then the rest of the book was about trying to understand which character was more than they seemed, which feels -to me- very different from a book where you find out at the end that these two characters were actually just one body all along or something like that. I felt like there was an absolutely masterful exploration of the interplay between sick systems and sick individuals. I felt like the book had a powerful message about how easy it is for insincere actors to manipulate huge numbers of people into believing the worst about each other. There's also the quieter message that people who manipulate others are coming from a place where their needs for attunement and validation have not been met in a safe way. So I absolutely loved the story and the writing. I was really disappointed by the depiction of female characters. I felt like there were only the two women, and they were not fleshed out the way the many men were. It kind of felt like he wrote them as superwomen instead of as people. I hope Kayode can read a bunch of books written by people who are not men and come back with a ton of new stories for us!
I read Fledgling last year, and the whole thing about an old vampire with a young person's body was definitely... not a thing I enjoyed. There were also a LOT of conversations about and explorations of consent that felt half-finished to me. I do wish that Butler had gotten to write the sequel before her death, because IIRC she was outlining it, and I think she could have smoothed out a lot of things, and maybe added a little more nuance to the setting. I will also say, it is definitely a vampire novel for fans of hard sci-fi. I found that it was laying a lot of setting groundwork in a way that reminded me of sci-fi novels where the plot was an excuse for the authors to gush about this cool setting they made up. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's something I need to be in the mood for, and I'm not in the mood for it very often.
I will in no way begin to touch your eloquence and I read Fledgling when it came out so my memory is foggy. But, correct me if I’m wrong, although the vampire in the book was in a child’s body, there was never any infantilization of the character. In comparison with Twilight and Interview, those characters were old, but behaved more in line with their appearances. Fledgling’s character never had the voice of a child. And based on the setting, being more related to a sci-fi/symbiotic relationship, it lent itself to being less creepy as far as the age. Without those two things I don’t know if I could have completed the book. That being said, I totally get how the book is problematic. Butler is my favorite author and she certainly hangs on the fringes of consent, body autonomy that gives you a queasy feeling in many of her works. One thing though, it’s does get addressed in the stories and isn’t completely romanticized.
Definitely want to read Lightseekers now. I can’t say that I have read that many non-Western thrillers. I’ve read mostly sci-fi or fantasy and literary fiction but not thrillers. I’m super curious to see the difference and similarity. Thanks for the great video.
Great video ! I agree we need to open the door for nuanced conversations and call authors in. I actually recently read and essay by Femi Kayode where he discusses writing from a non western lense and now I really want to read Lightseekers
I love the critical lens you bring to literature. Thanks for always posting topics/discussions that encourage people (me!) to think. I agree that readers need to be consistent with the things they don't like. If sexism bothers you it should bother in any book and etcetera.
For Fledgling its a bit more than like, shes an old vampire in a child's body. Even by vampire standards shes considered a child (they do age just very slowly) and has sexual relationships with both adult humans, where arguably she may be older than them (I don't fully remember how old shes supposed to be) but also an adult vampire who knows she is a child both in form and culturally. There's nuance to her human relationships, a symbiosis that comes with her culture that is explored somewhat in text and if Butler had lived I'm sure would have been even further expanded upon. But the sex is pretty graphic with whats essentially an 8yo's body. It was something I had issue with but still liked the book in the end, but then I read Parable of the Sower, which includes a relationship with a barely 18yo and a 60yo, and this being a theme that continued to come up in her work soured my feelings towards Fledgling even farther in hindsight. Before it was a book I liked but wouldn't recommend. Now I'm still parsing my feelings on it. I'm mixed and have black family, but am not black myself, but am a huge fan of black horror by own voices authors, just for context.
This was a great video! As a marginalized writer myself, I think part of the reason I procrastinate finishing my books is because of a fear that something I write will be viewed as problematic or harmful to certain groups, which is why I tend to stay stuck in "research" mode a lot. I kind of wonder how many other marginalized writers feel this way as well. I know my books will never be 100% perfect and something that's fine/ok today, could be viewed as "problematic" a decade from now. Which brings up another interesting question for discussion, should books that were not viewed as problematic when they were written/published, still be considered problematic today or should we view them as a "product of their time"? I've been loving your videos on problematic books you love, but can't ethically recommend as well. Makes me think about what books have I loved, but can't recommend. One of them is Karen McManus' first book, One of Us is Lying (though, I have recommended it in the past when I first read it), but this one has a plot twist using mental illness as well. I haven't read it in a while, but from what I can remember, it does seem like the plot twist was done for shock value, unfortunately. I definitely want to check out Lightseekers from what you've said. I haven't read Fledging yet either, but it's on my list to read. I would love to talk with you about doing some type of collab video on these topics cause I think they would make for a really interesting discussion. Let me know if you're at all interested in this. 😊
@@JesseOnTH-cam Yay! Awesome! Might take me a few days to send that message cause I've got a million things on my to-do list (as always 😅), but super excited to collab on this!
Jesse ! About the THUG book , you talk about the book being written for white people and how black people already know about this . Granted I read it right when it came out and my knowledge about the book is as foggy as my myopia , I’d like to tell you that I’m an Indian and didn’t know much about racism in America and this really explained that to me , not only that but it came out in the right time for it to reach a wide audience that’s not just based in the US. I do get your point, but I’d like to add on with saying that it’s not just black or white in the US. And that Angie has done more than just explaining it to the white US audience in the basic terms. I mean it reached me far on the other side of the world. For further context , racism in India does exist but a lot of the people try not to label it and not labelling it like people in US , kinda leads the issue to be brushed under the rug. People go " that’s rude , but considering other things they’re not TOO bad" but in US you’d be cancelled right away. Obviously not everyone is like that here, but more you read the more you understand . Like you said it’s obviously a stepping stone in the issue .
When I saw Passing in the chapters section I thought y’all meant the book by Nella Larsen and was horrified until I got to that section. I was lukewarm about the book on my first read through but really came to appreciate it upon revisiting.
omfg thank u so much!!!!!!! and lmaooo glad u enjoyed it!!!! she is so ridiculous. also it’s oddly affirming that you complimented the editing in that scene bc i DEFINITELY fussed over editing that part for an embarrassing amount of time just to get it “right”. 😂😂😂
I just feel like there's a difference between "problematic" and "this was not for me" Edit: Also, I have seen other African American readers who have said that "The Hate u Give" did age well. So, to me, it's weird seeing you discuss it in such a way that's more generalized than simply something that's your personal opinion, which you are entirely entitled to of course. Case in point, and not just for the book that I used for as an example, but in how we decide to describe things as if the person being BIPOC or Queer, and its intersectionality's, as part of that community, to somehow represent one's opinion as Gospel, when in reality, life is much more complex, and no one person can speak one everything or represent an entire community. As what one person might find to be, let's say, "problematic" another person may disagree. As another issue is that the word "problematic" is that it fails to demonstrate the different levels of "problematic."* And of course, I am not saying this to defend someone like let's say JKR, as that's a clear extreme example of someone actively promoting harm to a minority community. (Or anyone else for that matter, of course.) I suppose I'm trying to reflect how language is being used with broad scopes. Because while inherently, there are things that are "problematic" I must say that the more the word is being used, the less of an impact it has on the wider cultural aspect of what it's trying to accomplish. Especially since many things or people in life are what someone could consider "problematic." But to be clear, this seems to be more of a phenomenon in the USA, and to a much lesser degree the UK but especially in higher academic social circles there, but still mostly the USA. As in my travels across the world from El Salvador in Central America to Malawi in Africa, or even elsewhere in Europe, I have not seen the ways things which have been discussed here. And what I think it is, is that the USA has this weird relationship with identity politics which is very toxic. Which is tricky as Trans, Queer, and African Americans do suffer transphobia and racism in the USA. But I do think both things can be true at the same time. All that's to say, I'm not sure what the "answer" is per say, but I think this shows me that while things are being called "problematic" our corporate overlords are robbing us which I do think is problematic. *(Continuing to from my point there and above, is it an accurate depiction to say that "politicians accept blood money for never regulating guns and not having Medicare for all, not having access to free medication which other countries have" and "the passing playbook has a bad depiction, according to you, about being in/out of the closet narrative" are both "problematic?" I mean, I guess I could say technically "yes" myself, but to me personally, they seem to be so completely different to me.) I think what I'm trying to say is that: 1. No group is a monolith, and talking about things in absolutes instead of saying "something was not for me" is a bit trite (Again, not saying that I'm defending people like "JKR") 2. To travel and meet and to talk to people of diverse backgrounds and who are not American. At least for myself, you start to see how toxic "identity politics" really is. (Again, this can coexist with the fact that racism, and transphobia exist and are issues in the USA) And to be clear, it's not like you weren't doing these things in the video like in how you were describing "Lightseekers" which fair enough, but the title of this video is a bit clickbait.
i actually talk quite a bit about how no group is a monolith and how other Black folk are more than entitled to disagree with me, that disagreements is what makes us special and are healthy. you’re absolutely right that there’s a difference between not me and problematic :) i, a person who spends an obsessive amount of time thinking about words and their meanings, am incredibly intentional about what language i use and when. also, as i say constantly throughout the video, problematic doesn’t mean evil. something can have problematic or troublesome, concerning elements and still be a valid work worth reading, still be valuable, and so can the author. it seems like you willfully ignored a lot of what i said in order to make these points, some of which i address more than once. also the clickbait comment is just weird and not at all true but go off.
@Jesse On TH-cam I definitely hear you and what you're saying is valid. I apologize if it seemed like I was I was ignoring your points, so for that, I give that aspect to you. I want to say more, but I'll leave this aspect alone. However, what I will say is that I do find the title of your video to be quite clickbatey. Because while I admit that it's hard to summarize this conversation and even in your points you made in the video. I do not feel like even your own points and perspectives are being translated well into the title of the video. So instead of discussing the nuisances of the topic, it personally feels to me, and whether it was on purpose or not, that having a clickbatey title for engagement is more important than accurately describing what message you yourself are saying in the video. Edit: Spelling
Postings like these is why I watch y'all 💜 I will be adding more nonWestern thrillers to my tbr. I just added Felix Ever After to my shelves as I heard good reviews and can't wait to read it. I'm enjoying AND learning from those that follow y'all which is the sign of a thought provoking topic. Thank you for giving us room to dialogue.
Re: The Hate U Give, I feel like there needs to be a category for "social justice 101" novels, like "awareness novels" or something. Because, like, I read True Biz recently, and enjoyed it, but I feel like if I were deaf or HoH I feel like a lot of it would have been obvious/maybe even traumatizing at points.
i have heard awful things about true biz 😭 still own it and am interested but tysm for pointing this out!! as a hearing person i def want to be mindful our ways hearing folk are centered in the novel going into it
I started Fledgling, but I had to DNF it at the first sex scene…I could not stomach it. You see a lot of this trope (old minds stuck in child bodies) in anime, too, but that’s because they really like to sexualize it. I also read Midnight Sun (Twilight in Edward’s pov) and he does think of all the high schoolers as children, so….
I was watching a Japanese drama where the female lead goes back to when she was in high school but she’s still her 30 year old self and I couldn’t watch it 😭. I kept forgetting she didn’t regress in age until all the comments were people realizing it at the same time and pointing out that she was still 30
NEW SUBSCRIBER!! Thank you for your candid review of several books written by Black authors. I love your observance and discussion regarding the problem of many people (Black and other races) not providing Black authors as much grace as is provided for their White and/or other racial cohorts. As an aspiring author, beta and sensitivity reader, and book reviewer, I feel as though Black authors are expected to come to the table as these "perfect" writers (especially, debut authors). As usual, they're told they have to be ten times better for less pay and less exposure. Becoming an author is a LEARNING process (that never ends in my opinion). But when we have Black authors who are only told their work is great (even when certain aspects of the work are NOT, they're rarely given the opportunity to improve on those aspects); and EVERY writer I know thrives to improve their craft. When I review books, I take into consideration the author's experience writing, their culture and race (if they are writing about culture and race), and many other criteria. What I don't do is give an author a "pass" because of their culture, race, and anything else (if that makes sense); I give a high rating because of the quality of the work. The problem comes when the barriers to publishing and industry knowledge are put up for Black authors (thereby making it even harder to receive honest feedback to improve their work). TO ALL READERS AND WRITERS: It makes such a HUGE difference when readers and writers provide Black authors (and ALL authors) with honest, CONSTRUCTIVE critiques so they can improve their work. Jesse, I SINCERELY thank you for being honest and constructive in your book reviews. Your videos have helped me become a better writer AND reader.
Angela!!! tysm for being here!!!!!!!! loved loved this comment. feel so supported. you made me very happy sharing your perspective and I appreciate you.
Akasha, probably: "but I am trying to help you! Cute animal shenanigans boost your views!" I hadn't come across any reviews of Lightseekers at all so this is a really fascinating review with both what you loved and found problematic and also the discussion of books like The Silent Patient that sell copies like the house is on fire while Lightseekers has just...fizzled. Definitely one to add to my TBR (I don't read a lot of mystery/thriller but this would be an interesting one) I'm more familiar with Octavia Butler's SF but your take on Fedgling is pretty spot on - there are a lot of weird sexual "politics" and situations that happen and I feel like it's very much of the era in the 70s and 80s where people were throwing a lot of gender/sex stuff at the wall and seeing where it went no matter what. And, yeah, they get squickier as they age, which is unfortunate because she could write a book with both fantastic plots and fantastic sentences. This is a video that ends in giving us a great TBR list :)
love this comment!! just learned that lightseekers is a series and the second book released in november!!! IT LOOKS SO GOOD!! this one follows a pastor charged w the murder of his wife
I may have already commented this on a different video, but Queenie was my all time favorite book of the month that I ever got. I remember seeing it some online when BotM had it, but I feel like Daisy Jones came out the same month maybe, and had so much more buzz. I feel like a lot of people missed Queenie because of that. So happy to hear it brought up again. ❤❤❤
I tried to read that book. Couldn't get passed the part where the MC says black women are forbidden fruit for Muslim men. As if there aren't black Muslims 🙄
I read Felix Ever After and since it's a story that's different from my experience, I must have missed the conversations around it being problematic (I'll do better here). Because I genuinely loved it. It was emotional and beautiful and sad and thought provoking. Felix's flaws, are all part of the human experience.
I do really think that the sexism in Rage of Dragons was largely not an issue in the sequel. (My only major complaint that I remember is that we're still using women to be the exposition delivery). There's a large increase in the number of women characters which goes a long way to vary their stories/perspectives/personalities/efficacy/etc.
Donna Tartt is my literary nemesis so I resonate with everything y'all are saying here lol. COMPLETELY agree with y'all about "Luster" and "Queenie," those books do not deserve the bile they get, I adore them and they're so well written.
I agree with the tolerance we show white authors and the lack thereof for non-white authors. A lot of the hyper-criticised authors I see are POC. People like to give second chances to white authors books even if they are heavily criticised - like why is twilight having a resurgence? That book is both problematic and bad in many many aspects. But when it comes to a book by a POC with similar themes they are so vocal about why they didn't like this book - even with much less problematic content POC books get more flame. I personally like to read problematic books as well; I like to know what exactly is the issue about these books. I read and then watch/read reviews, try to understand what was the issue that made this problematic. This way I feel like I can broaden my mind and learn. Because we learn from bad examples as much as good examples. Not to mention probelmatic books/authors can have good discussion and depictions at the same time. Nuance is very important. But that is only me and my choice and at the end it comes down to giving your money to people who might not deserve it. I understand why people wouldn't want to do that. I will definitely pick up Lightseekers, I am very interested in it now. But I'll keep the mental health twist in mind. I am yet to read THUG as well, but I am putting it off because of the heavy subject matter (and my crumbling mental health). Now, when I pick it up I will focus on these points as well. I've read two books by black authors about grief and trauma recently and this is why I want to focus on the joy more for a while. One is The Deep and I knew what I was getting into but I wanted to read it anyway. But the other one I didn't know. I picked the other book after Chloe Brown and Honey & Spice and wrongfully thought it was also a romance book. The book is: Someday, Maybe by Onyi Nwabineli. It was about grief over the loss of a loved one and healing. It was heavy but I absolutely loved it. . Have you read it? I am curios of your thoughts. on a side note, i wonder how we Turks process our trauma lol. I should check that.
the resurgence of twilight is baffling also haven’t read someday maybe it sounds vaguely familiar? opening goodreads to add it to the list!!!! thank u ☺️
23:44 oooo! Loved y’all’s bit on Fledgeling- I had to DNF it this month (it was my Octavia Butler pick, I’m trying to read through her works) because of that concept (100 yo vampire in an 11 yo body). It comes pretty quick in the book (
Yes. I agree that white women are complaining about Fledgling but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I’m worried that if we don’t address the very problematic issue of Adultifying black children’s bodies we’re putting our children in danger of continued exploitation from outside our community and from within. It’s not only white society that doesn’t see black female children as innocent but our community doesn’t allow them innocence.
I really enjoy Jonathan’s videos And regarding the hate you give it’s been a while since I read it but I agree. The book “One of the good ones” touched on this topic as well. Regardless of what life the people lead it’s about the fact that they were killed. It’s not worse if he was a “good person” or needing to be shown that he is a “good guy” . Great video as always.
oooo, in the middle of this video still but the recommendation for lightseekers sounds really good!! as someone who is apart of a diagnosed DID system (who also loves mystery/horror/thrillers) i am very intrigued to see how it was handled, and especially excited to see that important representation and perspective for a thriller!! thank you for mentioning this book and giving your perspective
i feel the same about non-western thrillers!! i dont find american thrillers in particular at all compelling, I feel like there's way more variety coming from other places. for example im really interested in japanese detective stories right now, like village of eight graves. Might very well pick up lightseekers shortly!! edit: i loved your thoughts on recurring pedophilic themes in vampire stories. id never thought about it that way.
I love Japanese crime an thrriler books, I read a bit of Corean ones too but it's more miss than hit. You have one classical by Edogava Renpo, where basicly you got a female Moriarty, I loved it. Funny I started rwadingg Keigo Higashino because one of the characters in the blurb on the back was called Inspector Kusanagi. Ghost in the shell just keeps on giving (except for the Scarlett Johansen movie).
"written for white people" - this was my exact thought (as a white person) when I read The Hate U Give. "Social Justice 101" - totally agree. My exact thought was something along the lines of "how nice of Angie Thomas to write this very straightforward story to help clueless white people understand the most basic level of what the BLM movmeent is trying to get us to pay attention to." In terms of meeting a lot of white people where we/they are (especially where a lot of white people were in 2017 when this book came out) I think it's great - but as you said, it's a stepping stone.
I always appreciate y’all’s videos because y’all take such a thoughtful deep dive into what y’all like and don’t like about books. Thank y’all for the honesty.
I was so excited to see you had Cinderella Is Dead as a book you wanted to talk about, and infinitely more glad that your criticism was the exact thing I hated about it and the main reason I didn't finish, because I haven't heard anyone else talk about it. Shaming closeted queer characters may very well be the thing I hate most in queer media and it happens WAY too often. Worse, it's often directed at teenage characters, when queer teens are even more vulnerable than queer adults. The idea that being closeted means someone is inauthentic, a coward, or ashamed is such a dangerous message to send to queer kids. Heartstopper, particularly in the TV show but to a lesser extent in the comics/graphic novels, was the first time I saw a closeted queer character not only not being shamed for being in the closet but actively being encouraged to take all the time he needed to figure himself out, including by his partner, who even made sure after he did tell someone for the first time that he did so because he wanted to and not because he felt pressured to. I haven't read The Wedding Date, but I agree that showing the communication and consent is important, and now I know I wasn't missing anything when I decided not to give Jasmine Guillory's books a second change. I read The Proposal a few years ago and my opinion on it did a 180 in a matter of paragraphs near the end, though the reason was unrelated to your critique of The Wedding Date, aside from arguably a theme of women's feelings being sidelined--in the case of The Wedding Date, with the lack of communication on her boundaries, and in the case of The Proposal, to keep it short and non-spoilery in case you want to read it, the male lead showing romantic entitlement toward the female lead and saying some truly heinous things while lashing out over it. Anyway, incredible video, now subscribed and excited to check out your other content!
I adored how human Queenie is! She is the most real character I’ve ever read. Because you want to shake her, but you want to hug her and help her heal more! But you need to read that book with an understanding that it is a book about mental health not chick lit!
I just finished watching this video (bc I watched your latest where you mentioned this) and not only do I love your content - I am deeply grateful for the nuance you bring to discussions. As a resident defender of Luster, and other books that have cheating and infidelity as themes, I found myself seething at the way moral ambiguity and lenience is something reserved to white people from rich backgrounds. Not only did I find Luster to be a clever and gut wrenching book, it was also so considered in its approach. Every choice made sense and served the thesis of the book - not to mention no one who judges the infidelity talks about how power imbalance played into those specific dynamics. They never talk about the subtleties - and just the results. Frankly, I want to read books about people - and people are nuanced and messy sometimes. Generally, who we give grace to and who we don’t is important to consider when reviewing and I love how you explained it.
I like these takes and I like that you leave room for discussion and open mindedness instead of just boycotting out of principle. I often find that books with with BDSM elements have issues with portraying consent, but at the same time I also find it tedious when people talk about “the BDSM community.” Not everyone who is into BDSM or is exploring BDSM is a part of that community. Not everyone even agrees with the community and the showmanship and pretense it comes with. Sometimes passion is primal and people are into some dark shit. It doesn’t make them bad people as long as the relationship works and both parties are clearly happy. Plus…it’s a book. It’s not meant to be directions on how to build and maintain an ideal and ethical BDSM partnership. It’s a story…it’s about people who perhaps have flaws…it’s sometimes about compromise…it’s sometimes even supposed to be a purely negative relationship. I think people need to stop interpreting what they read as life lessons or something to aspire to. It’s a common issue with fiction readers I find. They want writing to reflect life and life to reflect writing. They’ve never just read a biography or autobiography about an awful person just out of curiosity. Take it for what it is-a story about people who do things and make choices. That’s literally it. The choices can be disagreeable, the themes may be disagreeable, some may even make you feel sick to your stomach. That’s not a bad thing, evoking any reaction so strong, positive or negative, is a good thing. If a book is so triggering for you on an individual level that you can’t handle it, then fine. You don’t need to read it. Sorry for the essay. Long story short, I think you make good points and I hope other readers can be more open minded.
@Trinity M I disagree with your remark that sex isn’t primal and it’s purely psychological. I think there’s both. And I don’t think conflating a want or need to be dominated with past abuse is a good mindset to have. I personally have experienced no abuse, but prefer non-vanilla pleasures. If a book’s entire premise is around BDSM, then sure, explore the psychology of it. But a lot of books just have messy sex scenes that don’t conform to the “BDSM community” guildlines. I don’t think labeling them as problematic is a good idea. Not everyone is a trauma victim, not everyone seeks out sex as some pseudo-therapeutic outlet. Sometimes it’s just preference. I’m gay and my preference of being a top or a bottom is just that…a preference. I don’t want or need people psychoanalyzing it. If I want to be tossed like a ragdoll and demolished into next year, that’s just my preference.
I'm still excited to read Fledeling! It's not at the top of my list of her books but I plan on going through her entire work - I think what y'all said is so spot on. Almost all vampiric content have gross age gaps, it p much comes with the territory, it's not an Octavia problem
That was an incredible video!! I'm ready to lay down my life for Felix Ever After! It was one of the first books we ever gave 5stars to and an all-time favorite!! Also, We've been seeing lately reviewers criticizing You Made A Fool Of Death With Your Beauty because according to some Feyi "destroyed" a family??? Can we talk about the fact that if the protagonist was a white woman, there would be comments like "sugar daddy romance" or a messy protagonist doing everything for love and how brave it is of her to choose her happiness above all else, to "get the man" or something along the lines of she found a second love, a "soulmate" after a painful heartbreak and she's lucky... But Feyi isn't lucky, she's selfish? And they would be the same people reading Colleen Hoover! It makes me furious.
Thank you so much for acknowledging the insensitive way race is represented in The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Similarly I feel like the queer aspects of this book arent handled well at all (the whole rant Evelyn goes on to explain the textbook difference between lesbians and bisexual women felt so weird to me). When I first read it I was so stunned that none of the reviewers that absolutely raved about it mentionned the racist undertones and awkward LGBT lessons in it. How can this book be featured in so many "best books of all time" yet so little people talk about its issues.... Baffling
LITERALLY!!! not sure if you’ve seen the video where i critique Evelyn Hugo in full but here it is if ur interested!! one thing i think i forgot to mention was the annoying weird random line about how she “marched w mlk”😂😂😴 th-cam.com/video/NbOD2GH1WuM/w-d-xo.html
Thank y'all for what y'all said at the end about cheating in books and the critique it does (or doesn't) get. I've never read any of those books so I can't comment on them, but it makes me so uncomfortable the way cheating is so commonly depicted as romantic in shows/books (season 1 of Outer Banks comes to mind) and no one ever seems to say anything! I never realized it was something only white media was getting away with, so thank y'all for bringing that to my awareness. Definitely bullshit that people would complain about Black books but not other media, either critique them all or critique none. I tend to fall into that first category with cheating in media (critique it all) and the points y'all made in this video have me wondering if that's something I should rethink. I love that y'all's videos challenge my point of view sometimes. While I personally wish it was used as a plot device less, I can still enjoy a book with cheating because a) I can enjoy books while also recognizing issues, or b) I can recognize that it's not always being glamorized or romanticized (in which case it generally doesn't bother me at all). But I think I lacked nuance here, y'all's channel has opened my eyes to that a few times now and I appreciate it so much. I genuinely believe that watching y'all's channel has made me a better and more responsible reader. This is a very long winded way of me saying y'all are my favourite booktuber and I appreciate how y'all are so good at bringing nuance into conversations and topics. Y'all've taught me a lot, and y'all don't owe me that but y'all have a forever fan in me.
Also, morally grey characters tend to be my favourite, they always feel the realest and most human to me. So I'll definitely be taking a closer look at why cheating specifically bugs me while I am much more empathetic to other things. Fear of one day cheating is a big OCD theme of mine (actually diagnosed, not throwing it around willy nilly lol) so I'm guessing that's got a lot to do with it.
controversial opinion but this is how we feel about animal deaths in books. many (non Black readers) can comfortably handle scenes of Black bodies being brutalized and tortured and abused both physically and socially but an animal killed off page is too much. we invite readers to question why an animal life matters more than a Black one. why an animals death/abuse is more sad and uncomfortable to witness than a Black human being’s. we want to challenge more ppl to question why that is and sit w the answer which may be uncomfortable 🖤 that being said, we’re in no way saying it’s problematic to not be able to handle animal deaths in books!!! that’s valid, we all have content that we prefer to avoid, and that’s completely ok hope this makes sense?
@Jesse On TH-cam makes total sense! As an environmentalist, it actually drives me bananas how so many people seem to think animals are more important or valuable than people, even in real life. I literally had a friend tell me once that she wishes humans would never build another house (including affordable housing) because we take too much from animals and there should be less of us anyway. And didn't see why that was fucked up even after I explained. It's weird to me how people find animal death or cruelty so much sadder than people, just like the reverse and not caring about animals at all and seeing them almost as objects is also weird to me. I never really understood what motivated people to devalue other humans that way, but what y'all are saying totally makes sense.
I love seeing your very thoughtful information about interesting topics. I just read Fledgling in January and it was my first OB work. It was very unique. Akasha is also way too adorable 😍
the feldgling convo is very interesting because the way authors write child vampires differs so much. in the book 'let the right one in' theres a 200 year old vampire in the body of a 12 year old child, and even though theyre old and smart, theyre brain kind of stopped developing when they turned so they still have a childs brain and act like a weirdo child? if that makes sense? but then books like iwtv have the child vampires mind continuing to develop even as their body remains frozen in time. theres a great episode of batman the animated series featuring a villain named babydoll. shes an adult but has a rare condition that keeps her body looking like that of a small childs. she was a child actor and wanted to progress out of those roles but because she looks like a kid everyone treats her like one. she even starts to have a romance with another villain but he breaks it off cause her childish appearance made him uncomfortable. interesting stuff! i dont know if theres a clear line with characters like this and whether being attracted to them makes their lovers PDF files but its def one that leaves you pondering...
Gosh - I love y'alls content so much. Y'all are always having such interesting conversations and discourse. I genuinely appreciate what y'all bring to this space and to bookstagram. This was a fascinating watch. Thank you Jesse
I have thoughts about Fledging as a big fan of Octavia Butler. As disclaimers, I'm white and I read the book years ago, so I don't remember plot details well and maybe if I reread I would have different opinons, it's possible The protagonist of Fledging is indeed a 50-something vampire in the body of a young child who has sexual/quasi-sexua relationships with adults in adults' bodies. This is indeed very uncomfortable, but it is also far from the only uncomfortable aspect in the vampire dynamic. At the start of the book, the protag feeds on a adult man which very definitely has adult undertones, but--despite the bodies of the two--the power dynamic are actually tilted in the vampire's favor. When a vampire feeds on a human, the human is forced into a bond with the vampire; that first human even reflects that he would be disgusted at what he was doing, but the compulsion by the bite is too strong to resist. So in the book in have contrasting feelings where you're disgusted by the very purposeful appearance of a pedophilic relationship while at the same time you're also discomfitted because a vampire bite basically strips a human of agency. It forces those quasi-sexual/sexual feelings just to the vampire, but also anyone else who was bitten by the vampire (they're called symbiotes). Also, once a human is bitten, they must continue getting blood from their vampire or else they will go through withdrawl and most likely die. Butler has another series Xenogenesis where there are these forced bonds humans have to live in, except it's aliens instead of vampires. In my opinion, anyone who dismisses these books because they're "problematic" is entirely missing the point. Bulter knew what she was doing when she wrote these things; when you read these books of hers, you're *suposed* to be uncomfortable. By choosing to have the protagonist of Fledging be a technical adult who looks exactly like a 10-year-old, she purposefully causes that conflict in the reader's mind and then has that conflict conflict with the other consensual issues in the vampire/human dynamic because she wants to force you to think about these things. Butler doesn't necessarily leave a clearcut answer in any of her books about what is right or wrong; that's left to the reader to grapple with. I definitely think you can take a writer to task for not directly adressing problematic aspects in their texts--for example in stories targeted for younger readers--and I also think that by including contentious elements to their works, writers should recognize that they're inviting discussion, including discussion that may be very critical to them (to the point where they might be called racist, sexist, etc). But I in addition believe that uncomfortable literature is very important, and that to condemn a book for working with very problematic things would stymy a person's/society's growth. (And, as you say, marginalized creators are disproportionately affected by this because their stories not being the "standard" have their messy/controversial bits stand out and threaten an audience more.)
Lots to think about here, thank you for this lengthy, thought provoking comment. would love to hear input on this from others too! what do y'all think of Corey's stance? let's discuss! hehe i feel like a high school english teacher LOL
29:05 this is what makes me so happy about the discourse around legendborn. I've only seen black tiktoker's talk but I love seeing people being so happy that she makes bad decisions.
I haven't even watched the video, nor do I plan to. The word PROBLEMATIC should be stricken from the world's vocabulary - especially in regards to art of any kind.
I actually want to give Lightseekers a read! I appreciate the warnings about the DID rep for sure. I trust it more knowing it's written by someone who is a Psycologist and has done their homework. I really enjoyed this video, keep up the amazing work Jesse!
I'm thinking about the whole "writing unhealthy bdsm practices" thing, as someone who writes erotica. I think there's definitely an appeal in the fantasy of your partner intuitively understanding your desires and needs without having to talk about it beforehand, and I think that's a big part of why it's popular in writing to skip the more realistic (and irl mandatory) negotiation scene. I guess, for my part, I'm a big believer in "allowing" (dislike that word) unhealthy fantasies, as a _general_ rule, as long as they're always kept in the realm of fantasy? I think it's a bad idea to do that in YA, since young readers are less likely to get that nuance, but in adult fiction, a disclaimer of "hey, please use safewords and negotiation and aftercare irl, they're a lot of fun and also not optional" would be enough. It's a shame we so often don't even get that! Also, with the "immortal x non-immortal" romances, I personally like explaining the immortal's age as being sort of, like, stagnant. Like, they can learn stuff, they can develop skills, but they can only access that stuff when they think about it really hard. I figure that living forever could make your relationship to time really screwy, and without mortal affairs to ground you, maybe you really struggle to hold onto things. If a vampire dies at 18, they're generally stuck at 18, never to grow physically _or_ mentally beyond how they were at their time of death. That then, of course, adds a fun element of their love* giving their life more substance and meaning, helping to ground them back in the here and now so they can learn to be human again. *Could be platonic love, too! Anyways! I really liked this video. I think it's always super important to read works in good faith and try to understand what was intended, to try to take what value we can from something flawed, to ensure creators are given the chance to grow and learn when it's a nuanced situation--but _especially_ when those creators are from marginalized groups and therefore going to get hit a hundred times harder for any perceived imperfections. And we need to let minority writers write, like, messy characters and messy situations! There are so many heartbreaking stories of creators who tried to tell stories true to their own experiences and got their lives absolutely upended, had their careers destroyed, or got driven back into the closet, away from their own identifies. It guts me. I really hope we're learning to be better.
@lorelei I agree that it's definitely a weird double standard that does exist for marginalized creators. The expectation that as a POC or any marginalized group, you inherently have to be "ultra woke" and represent every single other marginalized group. Not allowed to have toxic traits or make mistakes. So demotivating and disheartening.
I respect your view entirely and taste is so personal, maybe esp. in romance/erotica because kinks are often kept so secret and shamed, and fiction allows people who otherwise don't feel comfortable sharing their likes/dislikes to have a safe space to fantasize. Now y'all know there's a 'but' coming up, lol. It's not really a disagreement, but I do see a problem with the "vampire is 119 but stops aging mentally at however old he is at death" is that now the human partner is gonna be problematic because once they reach 25 or higher, we're getting into some ick factors with the shoe on the other foot. (Unless the partner gets undead too, I suppose.) I think the author would probably have to use your idea--that it's *possible* for the undead person to mature, but only if they try really hard. Of course then we'd need to know why after 116 years they're fine with remaining in a 16-year-old headspace for a century, because that's kinda weird. (I don't know if that very very common complaint about Edward in Twilight--why the hell is he repeating high school every year?--has been addressed 'cause I've never heard one that makes him seem anything but a groomer.) Ummmm sorry, that was super long and barely on topic. My apologies! I wish you all the best with your career and I love to see a variety of takes on different types of romance subgenres. If I said something offensive please forgive me, it wasn't intentional. Thanks for reading this far if anyone did, lol.
@@kiwilerner Pish posh, you're fine! I agree! I think you probably have to either have a sad short-lived romance or have the vampire become able to age, at least mentally (assuming she's got an adult body--otherwise physically too, because this isn't some sus anime), thanks to their mortal attachments grounding them.
White person here, but from South Africa. I love your discussion and conversation around this topic. I didn't realise black authors were hauled over the coals more than white. My personal stance is that I wish more (white) authors suffered the consequences of their actions - especially those using their fame as a platform - a bit more severely. Nigerian authors are fantastic storytellers! I loved your take on Lightseekers, and I am actually going to see if my local library has it. With regards to Anne Rice: Claudia (the child vampire) is actually a character she created in memory of her daughter who died when she was like 5 or something, due to leukaemia, and so she remains an eternal child. But I want to say there is a difference in how she wrote Claudia and also with having a woman in a kid's body being frustrated with never growing up, vs a man desiring a woman in a kid's body (Interview with a Vampire is one of my favourite books) but I haven't read fledgling yet, so I cannot honestly say. Twilight was an issue for me, for your reason and many others. Anyway, just wanted to drop in and say hi, love what you do.
High key took this as a book rec video, because I really liked being told about why something could be an issue for me, but why I should read it anyways. Hope to see something like this again!
This video was amazing! Do you have any resource recommendations on the psychology regarding different races responding differently to trauma? I had never thought of this before. Your videos are so thought provoking 😊💭
Thank you Jesse for being real and nuanced. You really preached about Rise to the Sun. As for The Hate U Give, I think most woke YA books are kinda preachy, and whiteness and the proximity there to is equated to mainstream. Supposedly Star had a white boyfriend for social commentary, but it was definitely a grab for acceptance. Not that interracial relationships are bad.. and I do still love The Hate U Give. I totally see where you’re coming from, though.
In regards to 'the wedding date'... I get what you're saying about the author introducing deep topics like race without delving into it deeply. Basically pick a lane...either be a fun romance book or be willing to delve into the issues. I will say I kept wanting sweets because she has a wonderful way of describing food :)
This response late, but I only recently discovered your channel. At the time I found this particular video, I was just about to begin Fledgling by Octavia E Butler. When you said it didn’t age well, my first reaction was, “How dare you speak ill of the works of the great Octavia E Butler!” Now I’ve read it. I liked the story, but … wow! There is a cringe factor in the reading. This is exactly the type of book that those DeSantis types would try to ban in Florida. I would support putting a trigger warning on books, but never ban. That’s the same as burning them. Anyway, good luck with your channel. Your video was very well presented. Peace.
You have sold me on the Lightseekers. Appreciate discussion around "this could be problematic, but these things are brilliant". I think being aware that you might find something uncomfortable going in is great. Also appreciate the difference between- plot devise to shock you and have "a twist" vs well thought out story with the it feeling truthful. Loved you thought at the end "it feels like the author's a psychologist,...oh he is!" 😆📚💜 ...now I need to abadon and go to work 🙈. I should have known this was not a "great video enjoy your book" type of comment video, I did this to myself! 😆
@Jesse On TH-cam Finished watching in my lunch break, amazing video - thanks for pushing us all to keep thinking (what a crazy idea!) Will add coherent thoughts later. Also - just wanted to share appreciation that you have a massive channel, but engage in the chat. Just want to let you know your time is appreciated, but equally because I have said this don't feel the pressure to HAVE to. I love your enthusiasm for the community and conversations around books and say viewers appreciate it. But equally you get LOADS of comments so totally understand if you don't get to them. Keep looking after you, Life is hard, books are awesome. 💜📚
I never really put that much thought into the child body in Fledgling because I was so struck by her struggle to survive after leaving the “lab”. But like yall said, it didn’t age well. I’m telling on myself when I say this, but survival, particularly mine, can make it easier to not see other problematic themes in stories.
Will definitely be checking out Jonathan's review. I am very late to the party and only read THUG last month. I am very white and did love it. But I was definitely struck by how 2 white characters were shown as - correct attitude Listen and learn. Incorrect attitude - nope you are racist, accept and apologise. I did appreciate it, as so many people deny or don't get "casual/ institutionalised racisim" But i really appreciate how this can be "well, yeah obviously" My journey does not start and end with Angie Thomas, but I do enjoy her books and although stuff like children growing up with "this is how you interact with the police - show your hands" absolutely shocked me (I live in the UK...and am very white) and spelled out what life can be like it totally makes sense that this was aimed it a way so I (white personnel my rose coloured glasses and cotten wool coat) got it, which does not make the best reading experience for others. Until you said it, I did not see how much effort went into "he's not really a drug dealer" narrative. What was a great reading experience for me was reading if alongside Channel Miller's "Know my Name memoire" so it really brought home the idea of "what is a Life worth" and how victims need to have the image of being "worth" something ti have justice. Which is disgusting and should not matter. As always that's for thought provoking videos and encouraging conversation...now to watch the rest 😆😆😆💜📚
Have enjoyed his video and subscribed. I like how you both had different things to say about it that I could not pick up on not having that experience. I still really enjoyed the book but am glad to have this context to put it in and see it "of it's time" in the history of literature. He recommended another book which I have added to My TBR genuinely so exvited for as it is an author I want to read from! 💜📚
Omg I love y’all’s takes on these books! And honestly there was a whole lot of mess with Twilight and the characters. Also OMG yesssss!!! I didn’t know y’all had a degree in psychology!!! I am HERE for it because so many people do not understand how trauma manifests for others and how those need to be shown without ripping down BIPOC authors and their characters!!! And honestly Taylor Jenkins Reid is my nemesis!!!! I hate her books because she always writes POC characters so wrong by writing them as if they’re yt 😤
Another black author that I really would love to get in to but can't ethically recommend because of their past actions is N.K. Jemison. Like I literally fell in love with her short stories anthology book How Long 'Til Black Future Month. She should understand the amount of power her social media platform yields however I don't think she does and likes to go after small people which results in tragic consequences. One incident is with Isabell Fall (a pseudonym) who wrote a short story called I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. N.K. Jemisin was very vocal about calling out the article and the author despite her admitting to not having read the story in the first place (the article was taken down a week prior to N.K. Jemisin's post due to the attacks and controversies it created). The attacks has forced Isabell Fall to out herself as a trans woman, got hospitalized for suicide attempts and has since detransitioned. N.K. Jemisin has since apologized to Isabell Fall and has written an article about it last year but the article seems to still be making excuses for her actions so it still doesn't sit well with me. I believe in giving people second chances. We're all bound to make mistakes. However, we should all be held accountable to not making those same mistakes especially when we're made aware of them. After this incident however, Jemisin joined other famous authors (Sarah Dessen, Jodi Picoult and others) in bullying a college student for a quote from an article from way back in 2016 that was taken out of context. Even though Jemisin and the others have apologized, it just doesn't sit well with me that these famous authors are using their platform knowing the influence they hold to attack powerless individuals. Bullying is just something I feel really strongly about. These two articles I think explains these two incidents far better than I would: www.vox.com/the-highlight/22543858/isabel-fall-attack-helicopter outwritenewsmag.org/2022/02/isabel-fall-casualty-in-the-fight-for-good-representation/ www.vulture.com/2019/11/famous-authors-drag-student-in-ya-twitter-controversy.html#comments nkjemisin.com/2021/07/statement-on-isabel-fall-comments/
The thing I was side-eyeing in Queenie was her aversion to black men, which is what I thought was gonna come up lol but the non-black ppl who were judging probably weren’t clocking that. more so, it’s the fact that it wasn’t something the author or the main character thought that was something worth dissecting a bit further. Especially when her aversion to black men appeared to be connected to S A from a black father figure (it’s been a while so excuse me if I’m getting some facts wrong). Was hoping they would have explored more nuance there.
i love the nuance! i think this, and your videos in general, bring something really really important to the conversations being had in the book community.
Rage of Dragons and Fledgling are two books which would definitely appeal to me based on synopsis alone. Shame about the problematic aspects. I'll probably add them to my tbr list anyway.
I completely agree with you on Lightseekers! Getting a non-Western, non-white perspective of mental illness is important, especially in moving forward and expanding the conversation. The book itself was interesting and refreshing. It is so different from other white thrillers which tend to run together for me.
You didn't piss me off at all. And yo, you don't have to phrase everything perfectly you're still making great points. This connects so much into other reading I'm doing right now, and it's very helpful to appreciate how much slack (especially white) people will give white authors, and how harshly they will scrutinize any author who isn't white, and it does drive me up the wall that we're not past this yet. Thanks for your great videos.
I don't really comment on TH-cam videos, but I so agree with what you said about The Passing Playbook, and I don't hear a lot of people talk about it. There were other criticisms I had but the closet shaming really rubbed me the wrong way. In general, I felt like the conversation surrounding coming out was questionable, at least to me.
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The fact you even have "book I love but can't ethically recommend" in your vocabulary, and that you regularly use it openly, is such a breath of fresh air in online artistic discourse. Not everything deserves a boycott/silencing over one bad element and we can still learn from and actually enjoy things with problematic elements, as long as we acknowledge them.
yes rita!!!!!! don’t get me wrong i do believe in permanent stepping away WHEN it’s necessary + if an individual is just so traumatized they can’t engage with the problematic person in question. that’s valid.
but i also believe in not hastily throwing our community members away. of understanding we are healing and trying. that we can, as marginalized folk unlearning our own oppression, all Arrive together if we give each other a hand.
maybe it’s my naivety but i’d rather see the whole person than the half. rather love them with their flaws, for as long as i’m able
@@JesseOnTH-cam Nicely put. I agree
Isn’t there a whole genre of “romance” that is about traumatized characters being horrible to each other? People looooove their dark romances about white characters.
OKAY LITERALLY!!! like bully romances are SO POPULAR
That genre of book is called The Vampire Chronicles by Anne Rice
And when the tv adaption made the mc black suddenly people were concerned about it romantizing abuse
This just sounds like Colleen hoover
@@thepinkestpigglet7529 Nonsense. This is a gross oversimplification of her work.
Lack of conversation about consent in BDSM situations in books is one of my biggest pet peeves! Especially since it's even a fundamental principle of the actual BDSM community (safe, sane, consensual), which just tells me that authors that include BDSM without mention of consent need to do more research/actually don't know anything about it
Omg THIS
Whenever I come across a book author who does this-leaves out the important consent part- I fee like they discovered BDSM in fan fiction and that is all they know.
the end of this video was so fucking powerful. I really appreciate you saying that marginalized people deserve nuanced representation. I’ve often seen people criticize marginalized people for things they let oppressors get away with all the time, or expect marginalized people to be perfect representations of their group. Thank you for saying this so powerfully & beautifully.
Say it louder for the ones in the back!
Is it really that people are expecting them to be perfect/model/ specimens though? Or that people are expecting them to somehow always be starting the race with more of a jump out the gate than those handicapped by (so-to-speak) starting outside-of and/or behind the starting gate?? 🤔 😶
That's what I suddenly find myself wondering. ..😅🙃 👀
((Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that's any better either way, though.))
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 People expect them to behave in an uncivilized way so they find themselves trying to be perfect to fight that prejudice. Like a tiny misdemeanor would be forgiven in any other subject but it would be blown out of proportion with them.
@@marianaamoedo5942 Yes, but I didn't get the impression that the original commenter was referring exclusively to marginalized people being overly criticial of themselves and/or of other fellow marginalized persons? It isn't only marginalized peoples themselves who sometimes judge marginalized creators less forgivingly than they might judge other creators. And I'm not sure if I think it really always is as simple as people just always overexaggerating every infraction due to racist negative-perceptions/expectations quite like that or overcompensating for that and expecting perfection to counteract it. That's what I was contemplating-IF it might be possible that sometimes the imbalanced/unfair/ judgment comes as much or more from people expecting that marginalized persons[ by default of being marginalized themselves] are somehow automatically more in-tune and/or educated and/or informed or something than other people who aren't so marginalized are, so perhaps sometimes they judge marginalized persons like 'you should have already known better' yet judge others more as if it's somehow almost inevitable or more expected or something that that others who aren't marginalized themselves 'might not have already completely known better yet' or whatever(?). It's still really messed up and definitely needs to change, either way, but in comments left under a video specifically highlighting the importance of nuance I just figured the possibility of that distinction could perhaps be fair enough to consider also. What you speak of has its roots in racially-biased discrimination-but the other thing, which I was wondering if might or might not alternatively also be another possibility, could actually be coming from a misguided but well-intentioned oversight. And the way to address or properly remedy both issues would not necessarily be entirely exactly the same. (..If that makes sense?)
@@jaginaiaelectrizs6341 I think I get you, thank you for clarifying. I thought about the times you try to drive perfectly because whatever you do you'd be told to go back to the kitchen and imagined how oppressive it would be to have your whole existence like that.
It's so nice to see Akasha loan her channel to Jesse for a video
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Lol - love this comment!
From my perspective, The Hate U Give was a Social Justice 101 class that I needed at the time. I’m a biracial Black girl from an upper-middle class background (grew up in Suburbia) who read the book as a teenager. Due to my privilege, I had not directly experienced a lot of the effects of systemic racism in the USA and thus the book allowed me to better understand the experiences of Black oppression that led to the BLM Movement. The book also gave me a voice/the language to really process the experiences of being Black in America. As someone whose childhood was during the Obama Administration, I was raised with a post-racial perspective: Racism was systemic only in history, and individuals today can/are still be racist but they can educated or avoided. By reading the book I was able to begin understanding how racism is still a systemic issue in the USA, and that police violence towards the Black community is a huge problem that I was just lucky enough to avoid due to where I lived. I also related to the main character and her experiences attending predominantly White schools and facing micro-aggressions.
YES especially on the experience of being radicalized + targeted in predominantly white academic institutions. related to that as well. obvs our perspectives are diff on the text overall, but just wanted to say REALLY appreciate your comment and your feelings are 100% valid.
White authors fully k*ll people and still hit bestseller lists but god forbid BIPOC authors and especially Black authors misspeak in an interview or goof on a detail in their books...
It's never easy to "fail" in public and every creative ever takes that brave leap whenever they create, and Black authors have to take that courage to the millionth degree simply because there's already folks around waiting to tear them to shreds for Existing While Black.
I love this thoughtful, nuanced video, as I always do when y'all pop up in my sub box!! Love the name change, love y'all!
“Who gets to be messy?” Is a great question
e x a c t l y
I love that you mention embracing authors in their humanity. I've also noticed this issue with black reviewers in the book community. When a black reviewer has a problematic take, people talk about their hair, call them ashy, and completely villianize them in threads/quote tweets. Sometimes it'll be one poorly worded sentence or a poorly researched opinion. However, people destroy them, and break them apart.
I'm also always cautious to blame authors, especially debut, for some trope-y and stereotypical decisions knowing how much the publishing industry banks on fetishisation/exoticisation and sexist tropes etc. so who knows how much was edited in and wouldn't appear once they're more established and get to have more say against (let's face it, mostly white) editors
I loved listening to your takes, and I definitely agree with them! I loved The Hate U Give when I first read it, but I've definitely read other books on the topic with more nuance. I will say, I've recommended THUG to multiple conservative relatives and it has actually helped to change their perspectives quite a bit. I loved your take on the misunderstood books, I'm so sick of the double standards in the bookish community! Great video as always ❤️
The Hate You Give is taught to the 10th graders every year in the district I work in and from what I’m told by my colleagues, it was a battle to keep it in the curriculum when the local conservative think tank sued the district on behalf of an angry parent 🙄.
I’ve only seen the movie and am planning on reading it this Spring to better support my caseload kiddos, but now plan to watch more criticisms like the one suggested in the video to prepare for more nuanced conversations with students and hopefully colleagues. ❤ Thanks y’all!
@Amanda This is my America by Kim Johnson is one of my current favorites and she has a new book coming out this year as well. I'm in college studying to be an English teacher and I'm always like "I wanna teach this" whenever I finish a really good book. This is my America is definitely up there for sure!
I really appreciate y’all’s super nuanced and balanced reviews of books. I trust y’all’s recommendations more than other reviewers because of this and it also inspires me to reflect more on my own assessments. I’m really grateful, this video was very informative and I’m going to be reflecting and making changes because of it.
Our pleasure! you cant know how much this comment means to us.
I realllyyyy wish there were more BIPOC books (and also LGBT+ ones as well) in the main booktube literary canon, so I'm so happy I found your channel!
UGH ikr. HERES SOME UNDERCELEBRATED BIPOC QUEER RECS DOE:
- scourge between stars
- space between stars
- friday im in love
- things we couldn't say
- vanished birds
- black water sister
- rainbow milk
Y’all comparison to how people react and praise Evelyn Hugo with the reactions to Queenie is SOO on point! Also y’all comparison to The Name of the Wind and The Rage of Dragons is perfect. I see so many people tear down Dragons but praise Wind and I always sit there confused. How you like one sexist book but hate the other? The critiques are always about the sexism and it gives fake activism! Never about the writing being horrible, the timeline being confusing, nope none of that. I think the criticism that black authors get from white readers/reviewers stem from the fact that these readers always expect black people to be teaching about something or calling out some wrong doing in society. They expect that so much it’s getting to a point where black people are not allowed to make mistakes or have nuance in discussions because we’re suppose to be “perfect” or striving for perfection. I notice that with authors, reviewers, almost any black celebrity that’s been in the hot seat for anything. People are still talking about Jay Z cheating on Beyoncé but no one is talking about Adam Levine cheating anymore. It’s literally everywhere and sooooo annoying.
The Twilight age thing will always get me because how would a 116 year old person fall in love with a 17 year old??? How does that even make sense? I'm 19 and I would be confused if a 21 year old wanted to date me, let alone a hundred year old vampire 🙄 Stephanie it doesn't add up, why aren't their more vampire stories with a newly-made vampire (like a teen who literally just got turned) falling in love with another teen, instead of these super old vampires falling for young people or young looking people.
…literally this
Right like I wouldn’t wanna be back at highschool even after living for +100 years!
Mild Spoilers for Fledgling: I've read Fledgling twice and (for context, I'm currently writing a vampire novel) so I feel like I understand what Octavia was trying to do, and I think the relationships between Shori (the 50 yr old vampire in a child's body) and her human familiars, is very intentional. I definitely think you should read it because there's a clear power imbalance between vampires and human familiars that I think Octavia was fully aware of when she wrote the book. To be honest it's hard to explain without giving more spoilers. But its linked to the idea that human-vampire relationships across vampire fiction (Twilight, The Vampire Diaries, etc) are inherently abusive in some way. I hope this makes sense lol.
i think you wrote this perfectly. it feels like a book that goes in the misunderstood category to me
does make sense! very excited now
Thank y’all for this video! I know there’s a lot of nuance to the issue of representation and this idea that people need to be perfect that many marginalized writers push back on, but I hope this video helps to open up this idea that that can be true for authors, while keeping the door open for readers from the target demographic to have diverging opinions. It probably won’t happen on Book Twitter or BookTok, but maybe there’s hope for BookTube?
THUG was the first time I started to actively think about things going on in the world I reread it during the George Floyd protests and wrote my IB final essay using the book and talking about police brutality
It definitely is a stepping stone book because despite me being Black before the book I can admit I wasn’t consciously thinking about these things (when I read it I was in high school aka my first time being in a predominantly white space)
I have since expanded on discussing these topics (every essay I’ve had in college so far where I can pick the topic I’ve written about has to do with Blackness or the effect of white supremacy and I love doing so because I am one of few Black English majors here)
I love the book for where it got me but it is definitely surface level
Akasha shoving her toy into yalls head while yall talked made me laugh so hard 😂 my dog does the same shit and it's frustrating but also so funny to watch
i’m crying😂😂😂😂😂😂
ooooh this is so interesting!! i haven't read Fledgling, but i was recently introduced to Butler through the story story collection Blood Child and each story came with, like, a small author's note that was super insightful and kind of explained where she comes from as a writer when she approaches concepts like this! There's a story there where a girl and her uncle talk in the aftermath of her negligent mother's demise, and it's slowly revealed that the uncle is also her father and it's MESSED up to think about but Butler, like, takes a very Human perspective towards it and tries to like. talk about how even tho these things are horrible, they still happen to people and people will have different reactions to them based on circumstances, you know? it's like. her note was so interesting to me. It essentially boiled down to her picking up uncomfortable concepts and seeing if she could pull off a meaningful and emotionally compelling story within that framework. Which, like, to be really honest, feels like the point of practicing writing as craft. Like she is by no means downplaying the horrible nature of these situations even as she takes an almost clinical outsider perspective to it as a writer and doesn't interfere with her characters' choices. which is like. honestly genius.
Honestly, this is why Butler is, to this day, my favorite sci-fi writer. I wish she were still here, I'd have loved to see how her writing evolved over time.
I don't think I've ever watched a single video of y'alls without thinking "they are right, and they should say it" and ofc y'all did it yet again with this one.
I've been following y'all for so many years now and I'm constantly in awe of how y'all can break down really complex issues/situations to something that is fun to watch, easy to follow and still so nuanced and clever. Y'all have this amazing understanding of books and literature etc that I deeply admire and hope that I one day can achieve myself (and I'm saying this as someone almost done with their master's degree in literature).
big hugs. truly thank you for these words.
ALSO CONGRATS ON ALMOST FINISHING THAT MASTERS LSJFKLAJSFLK;ASJF
I agree, now that the cultural discussion has moved forward from "diversifying the police force" to defunding, THUG has become dated. This happens to media all of the time as media is both a reflection and a creator of our realities and cultural discussions. I don't think it's wrong to say it's time to move on from these novels. If anything, that should be a celebration, it means (hopefully) as a society we're thinking more deeply, grappling with more complexities. It's so upsetting to read a novel or watch a movie and see that nothing has changed. Certainly there will be things that are the same, but hopefully our approach grows and matures and includes more voices. When it comes to social justice books, I would be thoroughly depressed if there were "evergreen" books. It means we are not moving forward, and, despite it all, I still have hope for that.
I love this series. It's so important to have these discussions.
And just to clarify: by cultural discussions I mean what the powerful group is willing to grapple with, not what oppressed groups are advocating for. As Jonathan's video notes: Baldwin was writing about this in the 1960s. Sometimes, these massive, successful books are often the books that only challenge the status quo a little bit (or not at all). So, I commended Angie Thomas for doing her best to get as much as she could in THUG, but ultimately, there's maybe even an unconscious decision to temper it so that the book can reach more people. This could be editors too.
Okay, I'm going to stop fussing with this comment, because I clearly have so many thoughts I can't figure them all out haha.
omg i feel you on having too many thoughts and wanting to over explain bc communicating them clearly is hard and you don’t want to misrepresent your point! personally i think ur comment was simply brilliant and full of heart ❤️
@@JesseOnTH-cam Thank you so much ❤
Oh yes, the who can be the best ally contest in goodreads reviews that somehow seems to almost always be on a Black author's debut book is so frustrating. The standard that Black authors get held to by a fair number of readers is unrealistic and unfair, especially given the overwhelming whiteness of the publishing world they have to trudge through just to get their book published. Great video, great conversation. Thank y'all for all these problematic book/author videos.
THIS!!!!!! well said
I am so grateful for the recommendation for Lightseekers! It was so good and so important! I was blown away by how Kayode talks about mass manipulation and crowd violence. For me, the mental illness was an important part of the story but not a disrespectful gimmick. I felt like it was introduced at the beginning and then the rest of the book was about trying to understand which character was more than they seemed, which feels -to me- very different from a book where you find out at the end that these two characters were actually just one body all along or something like that. I felt like there was an absolutely masterful exploration of the interplay between sick systems and sick individuals. I felt like the book had a powerful message about how easy it is for insincere actors to manipulate huge numbers of people into believing the worst about each other. There's also the quieter message that people who manipulate others are coming from a place where their needs for attunement and validation have not been met in a safe way.
So I absolutely loved the story and the writing. I was really disappointed by the depiction of female characters. I felt like there were only the two women, and they were not fleshed out the way the many men were. It kind of felt like he wrote them as superwomen instead of as people. I hope Kayode can read a bunch of books written by people who are not men and come back with a ton of new stories for us!
I read Fledgling last year, and the whole thing about an old vampire with a young person's body was definitely... not a thing I enjoyed. There were also a LOT of conversations about and explorations of consent that felt half-finished to me. I do wish that Butler had gotten to write the sequel before her death, because IIRC she was outlining it, and I think she could have smoothed out a lot of things, and maybe added a little more nuance to the setting. I will also say, it is definitely a vampire novel for fans of hard sci-fi. I found that it was laying a lot of setting groundwork in a way that reminded me of sci-fi novels where the plot was an excuse for the authors to gush about this cool setting they made up. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's something I need to be in the mood for, and I'm not in the mood for it very often.
love this, ty✨
I will in no way begin to touch your eloquence and I read Fledgling when it came out so my memory is foggy.
But, correct me if I’m wrong, although the vampire in the book was in a child’s body, there was never any infantilization of the character. In comparison with Twilight and Interview, those characters were old, but behaved more in line with their appearances.
Fledgling’s character never had the voice of a child. And based on the setting, being more related to a sci-fi/symbiotic relationship, it lent itself to being less creepy as far as the age.
Without those two things I don’t know if I could have completed the book.
That being said, I totally get how the book is problematic. Butler is my favorite author and she certainly hangs on the fringes of consent, body autonomy that gives you a queasy feeling in many of her works. One thing though, it’s does get addressed in the stories and isn’t completely romanticized.
Definitely want to read Lightseekers now. I can’t say that I have read that many non-Western thrillers. I’ve read mostly sci-fi or fantasy and literary fiction but not thrillers. I’m super curious to see the difference and similarity. Thanks for the great video.
it’s such a special work
please come chat about it when you get to it :)
Great video ! I agree we need to open the door for nuanced conversations and call authors in. I actually recently read and essay by Femi Kayode where he discusses writing from a non western lense and now I really want to read Lightseekers
omg need to find that essay
I love the critical lens you bring to literature. Thanks for always posting topics/discussions that encourage people (me!) to think. I agree that readers need to be consistent with the things they don't like. If sexism bothers you it should bother in any book and etcetera.
For Fledgling its a bit more than like, shes an old vampire in a child's body. Even by vampire standards shes considered a child (they do age just very slowly) and has sexual relationships with both adult humans, where arguably she may be older than them (I don't fully remember how old shes supposed to be) but also an adult vampire who knows she is a child both in form and culturally. There's nuance to her human relationships, a symbiosis that comes with her culture that is explored somewhat in text and if Butler had lived I'm sure would have been even further expanded upon. But the sex is pretty graphic with whats essentially an 8yo's body. It was something I had issue with but still liked the book in the end, but then I read Parable of the Sower, which includes a relationship with a barely 18yo and a 60yo, and this being a theme that continued to come up in her work soured my feelings towards Fledgling even farther in hindsight. Before it was a book I liked but wouldn't recommend. Now I'm still parsing my feelings on it.
I'm mixed and have black family, but am not black myself, but am a huge fan of black horror by own voices authors, just for context.
This was a great video! As a marginalized writer myself, I think part of the reason I procrastinate finishing my books is because of a fear that something I write will be viewed as problematic or harmful to certain groups, which is why I tend to stay stuck in "research" mode a lot. I kind of wonder how many other marginalized writers feel this way as well. I know my books will never be 100% perfect and something that's fine/ok today, could be viewed as "problematic" a decade from now. Which brings up another interesting question for discussion, should books that were not viewed as problematic when they were written/published, still be considered problematic today or should we view them as a "product of their time"?
I've been loving your videos on problematic books you love, but can't ethically recommend as well. Makes me think about what books have I loved, but can't recommend. One of them is Karen McManus' first book, One of Us is Lying (though, I have recommended it in the past when I first read it), but this one has a plot twist using mental illness as well. I haven't read it in a while, but from what I can remember, it does seem like the plot twist was done for shock value, unfortunately. I definitely want to check out Lightseekers from what you've said. I haven't read Fledging yet either, but it's on my list to read.
I would love to talk with you about doing some type of collab video on these topics cause I think they would make for a really interesting discussion. Let me know if you're at all interested in this. 😊
ummmm YES PLS!!!!!! very interested. maybe a live? dm on ig when u have a sec!!!
@@JesseOnTH-cam Yay! Awesome! Might take me a few days to send that message cause I've got a million things on my to-do list (as always 😅), but super excited to collab on this!
Jesse ! About the THUG book , you talk about the book being written for white people and how black people already know about this . Granted I read it right when it came out and my knowledge about the book is as foggy as my myopia , I’d like to tell you that I’m an Indian and didn’t know much about racism in America and this really explained that to me , not only that but it came out in the right time for it to reach a wide audience that’s not just based in the US. I do get your point, but I’d like to add on with saying that it’s not just black or white in the US. And that Angie has done more than just explaining it to the white US audience in the basic terms. I mean it reached me far on the other side of the world. For further context , racism in India does exist but a lot of the people try not to label it and not labelling it like people in US , kinda leads the issue to be brushed under the rug. People go " that’s rude , but considering other things they’re not TOO bad" but in US you’d be cancelled right away. Obviously not everyone is like that here, but more you read the more you understand . Like you said it’s obviously a stepping stone in the issue .
thanks for your perspective, mini!
When I saw Passing in the chapters section I thought y’all meant the book by Nella Larsen and was horrified until I got to that section. I was lukewarm about the book on my first read through but really came to appreciate it upon revisiting.
lmao lizzie omgggg so sorry! haha we LOVE that book too!!
Always love that y'all are always out to educate, it's so so appreciated!
Akasha with the toy, and y'all impeccable editing of that moment is just amazing, I was on the floor😂
omfg thank u so much!!!!!!! and lmaooo glad u enjoyed it!!!! she is so ridiculous. also it’s oddly affirming that you complimented the editing in that scene bc i DEFINITELY fussed over editing that part for an embarrassing amount of time just to get it “right”. 😂😂😂
I just feel like there's a difference between "problematic" and "this was not for me"
Edit: Also, I have seen other African American readers who have said that "The Hate u Give" did age well. So, to me, it's weird seeing you discuss it in such a way that's more generalized than simply something that's your personal opinion, which you are entirely entitled to of course. Case in point, and not just for the book that I used for as an example, but in how we decide to describe things as if the person being BIPOC or Queer, and its intersectionality's, as part of that community, to somehow represent one's opinion as Gospel, when in reality, life is much more complex, and no one person can speak one everything or represent an entire community. As what one person might find to be, let's say, "problematic" another person may disagree. As another issue is that the word "problematic" is that it fails to demonstrate the different levels of "problematic."*
And of course, I am not saying this to defend someone like let's say JKR, as that's a clear extreme example of someone actively promoting harm to a minority community. (Or anyone else for that matter, of course.)
I suppose I'm trying to reflect how language is being used with broad scopes. Because while inherently, there are things that are "problematic" I must say that the more the word is being used, the less of an impact it has on the wider cultural aspect of what it's trying to accomplish. Especially since many things or people in life are what someone could consider "problematic."
But to be clear, this seems to be more of a phenomenon in the USA, and to a much lesser degree the UK but especially in higher academic social circles there, but still mostly the USA. As in my travels across the world from El Salvador in Central America to Malawi in Africa, or even elsewhere in Europe, I have not seen the ways things which have been discussed here. And what I think it is, is that the USA has this weird relationship with identity politics which is very toxic. Which is tricky as Trans, Queer, and African Americans do suffer transphobia and racism in the USA. But I do think both things can be true at the same time.
All that's to say, I'm not sure what the "answer" is per say, but I think this shows me that while things are being called "problematic" our corporate overlords are robbing us which I do think is problematic. *(Continuing to from my point there and above, is it an accurate depiction to say that "politicians accept blood money for never regulating guns and not having Medicare for all, not having access to free medication which other countries have" and "the passing playbook has a bad depiction, according to you, about being in/out of the closet narrative" are both "problematic?" I mean, I guess I could say technically "yes" myself, but to me personally, they seem to be so completely different to me.)
I think what I'm trying to say is that:
1. No group is a monolith, and talking about things in absolutes instead of saying "something was not for me" is a bit trite (Again, not saying that I'm defending people like "JKR")
2. To travel and meet and to talk to people of diverse backgrounds and who are not American. At least for myself, you start to see how toxic "identity politics" really is. (Again, this can coexist with the fact that racism, and transphobia exist and are issues in the USA)
And to be clear, it's not like you weren't doing these things in the video like in how you were describing "Lightseekers" which fair enough, but the title of this video is a bit clickbait.
i actually talk quite a bit about how no group is a monolith and how other Black folk are more than entitled to disagree with me, that disagreements is what makes us special and are healthy. you’re absolutely right that there’s a difference between not me and problematic :) i, a person who spends an obsessive amount of time thinking about words and their meanings, am incredibly intentional about what language i use and when. also, as i say constantly throughout the video, problematic doesn’t mean evil. something can have problematic or troublesome, concerning elements and still be a valid work worth reading, still be valuable, and so can the author.
it seems like you willfully ignored a lot of what i said in order to make these points, some of which i address more than once. also the clickbait comment is just weird and not at all true but go off.
@Jesse On TH-cam I definitely hear you and what you're saying is valid. I apologize if it seemed like I was I was ignoring your points, so for that, I give that aspect to you. I want to say more, but I'll leave this aspect alone.
However, what I will say is that I do find the title of your video to be quite clickbatey. Because while I admit that it's hard to summarize this conversation and even in your points you made in the video. I do not feel like even your own points and perspectives are being translated well into the title of the video. So instead of discussing the nuisances of the topic, it personally feels to me, and whether it was on purpose or not, that having a clickbatey title for engagement is more important than accurately describing what message you yourself are saying in the video.
Edit: Spelling
Postings like these is why I watch y'all 💜 I will be adding more nonWestern thrillers to my tbr. I just added Felix Ever After to my shelves as I heard good reviews and can't wait to read it. I'm enjoying AND learning from those that follow y'all which is the sign of a thought provoking topic. Thank you for giving us room to dialogue.
✨🥺🥺🥺✨
Re: The Hate U Give, I feel like there needs to be a category for "social justice 101" novels, like "awareness novels" or something. Because, like, I read True Biz recently, and enjoyed it, but I feel like if I were deaf or HoH I feel like a lot of it would have been obvious/maybe even traumatizing at points.
i have heard awful things about true biz 😭 still own it and am interested but tysm for pointing this out!! as a hearing person i def want to be mindful our ways hearing folk are centered in the novel going into it
I started Fledgling, but I had to DNF it at the first sex scene…I could not stomach it. You see a lot of this trope (old minds stuck in child bodies) in anime, too, but that’s because they really like to sexualize it. I also read Midnight Sun (Twilight in Edward’s pov) and he does think of all the high schoolers as children, so….
ok wow that’s a good point about edward
I was watching a Japanese drama where the female lead goes back to when she was in high school but she’s still her 30 year old self and I couldn’t watch it 😭. I kept forgetting she didn’t regress in age until all the comments were people realizing it at the same time and pointing out that she was still 30
NEW SUBSCRIBER!! Thank you for your candid review of several books written by Black authors. I love your observance and discussion regarding the problem of many people (Black and other races) not providing Black authors as much grace as is provided for their White and/or other racial cohorts.
As an aspiring author, beta and sensitivity reader, and book reviewer, I feel as though Black authors are expected to come to the table as these "perfect" writers (especially, debut authors). As usual, they're told they have to be ten times better for less pay and less exposure. Becoming an author is a LEARNING process (that never ends in my opinion). But when we have Black authors who are only told their work is great (even when certain aspects of the work are NOT, they're rarely given the opportunity to improve on those aspects); and EVERY writer I know thrives to improve their craft.
When I review books, I take into consideration the author's experience writing, their culture and race (if they are writing about culture and race), and many other criteria. What I don't do is give an author a "pass" because of their culture, race, and anything else (if that makes sense); I give a high rating because of the quality of the work. The problem comes when the barriers to publishing and industry knowledge are put up for Black authors (thereby making it even harder to receive honest feedback to improve their work).
TO ALL READERS AND WRITERS: It makes such a HUGE difference when readers and writers provide Black authors (and ALL authors) with honest, CONSTRUCTIVE critiques so they can improve their work.
Jesse, I SINCERELY thank you for being honest and constructive in your book reviews. Your videos have helped me become a better writer AND reader.
Angela!!! tysm for being here!!!!!!!! loved loved this comment. feel so supported. you made me very happy sharing your perspective and I appreciate you.
Akasha, probably: "but I am trying to help you! Cute animal shenanigans boost your views!"
I hadn't come across any reviews of Lightseekers at all so this is a really fascinating review with both what you loved and found problematic and also the discussion of books like The Silent Patient that sell copies like the house is on fire while Lightseekers has just...fizzled. Definitely one to add to my TBR (I don't read a lot of mystery/thriller but this would be an interesting one)
I'm more familiar with Octavia Butler's SF but your take on Fedgling is pretty spot on - there are a lot of weird sexual "politics" and situations that happen and I feel like it's very much of the era in the 70s and 80s where people were throwing a lot of gender/sex stuff at the wall and seeing where it went no matter what. And, yeah, they get squickier as they age, which is unfortunate because she could write a book with both fantastic plots and fantastic sentences.
This is a video that ends in giving us a great TBR list :)
love this comment!! just learned that lightseekers is a series and the second book released in november!!! IT LOOKS SO GOOD!! this one follows a pastor charged w the murder of his wife
The dog toy on your shoulder! 🤣💕 what a flawless pup she is!
I cannot wait for whatever Raven Leilani writes next!! Such gorgeous writing and love messy characters ✨
p.s. sad there’s no hay bale emoji
omg is there a second book announcement for her? makes sense if not because her writing is so spectacular it must take a million years
I may have already commented this on a different video, but Queenie was my all time favorite book of the month that I ever got. I remember seeing it some online when BotM had it, but I feel like Daisy Jones came out the same month maybe, and had so much more buzz. I feel like a lot of people missed Queenie because of that. So happy to hear it brought up again. ❤❤❤
I tried to read that book. Couldn't get passed the part where the MC says black women are forbidden fruit for Muslim men. As if there aren't black Muslims 🙄
I read Felix Ever After and since it's a story that's different from my experience, I must have missed the conversations around it being problematic (I'll do better here). Because I genuinely loved it. It was emotional and beautiful and sad and thought provoking. Felix's flaws, are all part of the human experience.
yes katie!!!
I do really think that the sexism in Rage of Dragons was largely not an issue in the sequel. (My only major complaint that I remember is that we're still using women to be the exposition delivery).
There's a large increase in the number of women characters which goes a long way to vary their stories/perspectives/personalities/efficacy/etc.
you just made me so excited for the sequel
Donna Tartt is my literary nemesis so I resonate with everything y'all are saying here lol. COMPLETELY agree with y'all about "Luster" and "Queenie," those books do not deserve the bile they get, I adore them and they're so well written.
we luv u lol
I agree with the tolerance we show white authors and the lack thereof for non-white authors. A lot of the hyper-criticised authors I see are POC. People like to give second chances to white authors books even if they are heavily criticised - like why is twilight having a resurgence? That book is both problematic and bad in many many aspects.
But when it comes to a book by a POC with similar themes they are so vocal about why they didn't like this book - even with much less problematic content POC books get more flame.
I personally like to read problematic books as well; I like to know what exactly is the issue about these books. I read and then watch/read reviews, try to understand what was the issue that made this problematic. This way I feel like I can broaden my mind and learn. Because we learn from bad examples as much as good examples. Not to mention probelmatic books/authors can have good discussion and depictions at the same time. Nuance is very important.
But that is only me and my choice and at the end it comes down to giving your money to people who might not deserve it. I understand why people wouldn't want to do that.
I will definitely pick up Lightseekers, I am very interested in it now. But I'll keep the mental health twist in mind. I am yet to read THUG as well, but I am putting it off because of the heavy subject matter (and my crumbling mental health). Now, when I pick it up I will focus on these points as well.
I've read two books by black authors about grief and trauma recently and this is why I want to focus on the joy more for a while. One is The Deep and I knew what I was getting into but I wanted to read it anyway. But the other one I didn't know. I picked the other book after Chloe Brown and Honey & Spice and wrongfully thought it was also a romance book. The book is: Someday, Maybe by Onyi Nwabineli. It was about grief over the loss of a loved one and healing. It was heavy but I absolutely loved it. . Have you read it? I am curios of your thoughts.
on a side note, i wonder how we Turks process our trauma lol. I should check that.
the resurgence of twilight is baffling
also haven’t read someday maybe
it sounds vaguely familiar? opening goodreads to add it to the list!!!! thank u ☺️
23:44 oooo! Loved y’all’s bit on Fledgeling- I had to DNF it this month (it was my Octavia Butler pick, I’m trying to read through her works) because of that concept (100 yo vampire in an 11 yo body). It comes pretty quick in the book (
Yes. I agree that white women are complaining about Fledgling but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I’m worried that if we don’t address the very problematic issue of Adultifying black children’s bodies we’re putting our children in danger of continued exploitation from outside our community and from within. It’s not only white society that doesn’t see black female children as innocent but our community doesn’t allow them innocence.
I really enjoy Jonathan’s videos And regarding the hate you give it’s been a while since I read it but I agree. The book “One of the good ones” touched on this topic as well. Regardless of what life the people lead it’s about the fact that they were killed. It’s not worse if he was a “good person” or needing to be shown that he is a “good guy” . Great video as always.
literally good lordt. also jonathan is LIFE ITSELF😭😭😭 also also can we have a private stream soon??
@@JesseOnTH-cam of course we can my DMs are open for y’all 😌
oooo, in the middle of this video still but the recommendation for lightseekers sounds really good!! as someone who is apart of a diagnosed DID system (who also loves mystery/horror/thrillers) i am very intrigued to see how it was handled, and especially excited to see that important representation and perspective for a thriller!! thank you for mentioning this book and giving your perspective
i feel the same about non-western thrillers!! i dont find american thrillers in particular at all compelling, I feel like there's way more variety coming from other places. for example im really interested in japanese detective stories right now, like village of eight graves. Might very well pick up lightseekers shortly!!
edit: i loved your thoughts on recurring pedophilic themes in vampire stories. id never thought about it that way.
I love Japanese crime an thrriler books, I read a bit of Corean ones too but it's more miss than hit. You have one classical by Edogava Renpo, where basicly you got a female Moriarty, I loved it. Funny I started rwadingg Keigo Higashino because one of the characters in the blurb on the back was called Inspector Kusanagi. Ghost in the shell just keeps on giving (except for the Scarlett Johansen movie).
female moriarty?!?!🥰🥰🥰 also maybe i should do a video on non western thrillers..
"written for white people" - this was my exact thought (as a white person) when I read The Hate U Give. "Social Justice 101" - totally agree. My exact thought was something along the lines of "how nice of Angie Thomas to write this very straightforward story to help clueless white people understand the most basic level of what the BLM movmeent is trying to get us to pay attention to." In terms of meeting a lot of white people where we/they are (especially where a lot of white people were in 2017 when this book came out) I think it's great - but as you said, it's a stepping stone.
The Queenie review!!!👏🏽👏🏽
Also, love seeing Akasha trying to get you to stop talking to us and go play. 😂
I always appreciate y’all’s videos because y’all take such a thoughtful deep dive into what y’all like and don’t like about books. Thank y’all for the honesty.
thank you janet 🥺💓🙏🏽🎁
I loved Queenie and Candice Carty- Williams as a writer in general.
Thank you for chatting about these books with us Jesse 😊
You're so welcome! love you charlie
"Stephanie Meyer does not fucking count" GOT ME GOOD
LMAOOO just sayinggggg
I was so excited to see you had Cinderella Is Dead as a book you wanted to talk about, and infinitely more glad that your criticism was the exact thing I hated about it and the main reason I didn't finish, because I haven't heard anyone else talk about it. Shaming closeted queer characters may very well be the thing I hate most in queer media and it happens WAY too often. Worse, it's often directed at teenage characters, when queer teens are even more vulnerable than queer adults. The idea that being closeted means someone is inauthentic, a coward, or ashamed is such a dangerous message to send to queer kids. Heartstopper, particularly in the TV show but to a lesser extent in the comics/graphic novels, was the first time I saw a closeted queer character not only not being shamed for being in the closet but actively being encouraged to take all the time he needed to figure himself out, including by his partner, who even made sure after he did tell someone for the first time that he did so because he wanted to and not because he felt pressured to.
I haven't read The Wedding Date, but I agree that showing the communication and consent is important, and now I know I wasn't missing anything when I decided not to give Jasmine Guillory's books a second change. I read The Proposal a few years ago and my opinion on it did a 180 in a matter of paragraphs near the end, though the reason was unrelated to your critique of The Wedding Date, aside from arguably a theme of women's feelings being sidelined--in the case of The Wedding Date, with the lack of communication on her boundaries, and in the case of The Proposal, to keep it short and non-spoilery in case you want to read it, the male lead showing romantic entitlement toward the female lead and saying some truly heinous things while lashing out over it.
Anyway, incredible video, now subscribed and excited to check out your other content!
thank you so much for this insightful comment!!
I adored how human Queenie is! She is the most real character I’ve ever read. Because you want to shake her, but you want to hug her and help her heal more! But you need to read that book with an understanding that it is a book about mental health not chick lit!
I just finished watching this video (bc I watched your latest where you mentioned this) and not only do I love your content - I am deeply grateful for the nuance you bring to discussions. As a resident defender of Luster, and other books that have cheating and infidelity as themes, I found myself seething at the way moral ambiguity and lenience is something reserved to white people from rich backgrounds. Not only did I find Luster to be a clever and gut wrenching book, it was also so considered in its approach. Every choice made sense and served the thesis of the book - not to mention no one who judges the infidelity talks about how power imbalance played into those specific dynamics. They never talk about the subtleties - and just the results. Frankly, I want to read books about people - and people are nuanced and messy sometimes. Generally, who we give grace to and who we don’t is important to consider when reviewing and I love how you explained it.
I like these takes and I like that you leave room for discussion and open mindedness instead of just boycotting out of principle. I often find that books with with BDSM elements have issues with portraying consent, but at the same time I also find it tedious when people talk about “the BDSM community.” Not everyone who is into BDSM or is exploring BDSM is a part of that community. Not everyone even agrees with the community and the showmanship and pretense it comes with. Sometimes passion is primal and people are into some dark shit. It doesn’t make them bad people as long as the relationship works and both parties are clearly happy. Plus…it’s a book. It’s not meant to be directions on how to build and maintain an ideal and ethical BDSM partnership. It’s a story…it’s about people who perhaps have flaws…it’s sometimes about compromise…it’s sometimes even supposed to be a purely negative relationship. I think people need to stop interpreting what they read as life lessons or something to aspire to. It’s a common issue with fiction readers I find. They want writing to reflect life and life to reflect writing. They’ve never just read a biography or autobiography about an awful person just out of curiosity. Take it for what it is-a story about people who do things and make choices. That’s literally it. The choices can be disagreeable, the themes may be disagreeable, some may even make you feel sick to your stomach. That’s not a bad thing, evoking any reaction so strong, positive or negative, is a good thing. If a book is so triggering for you on an individual level that you can’t handle it, then fine. You don’t need to read it.
Sorry for the essay. Long story short, I think you make good points and I hope other readers can be more open minded.
thanks for sharing your perspective.
@Trinity M I disagree with your remark that sex isn’t primal and it’s purely psychological. I think there’s both. And I don’t think conflating a want or need to be dominated with past abuse is a good mindset to have. I personally have experienced no abuse, but prefer non-vanilla pleasures. If a book’s entire premise is around BDSM, then sure, explore the psychology of it. But a lot of books just have messy sex scenes that don’t conform to the “BDSM community” guildlines. I don’t think labeling them as problematic is a good idea. Not everyone is a trauma victim, not everyone seeks out sex as some pseudo-therapeutic outlet. Sometimes it’s just preference. I’m gay and my preference of being a top or a bottom is just that…a preference. I don’t want or need people psychoanalyzing it. If I want to be tossed like a ragdoll and demolished into next year, that’s just my preference.
I'm still excited to read Fledeling! It's not at the top of my list of her books but I plan on going through her entire work - I think what y'all said is so spot on. Almost all vampiric content have gross age gaps, it p much comes with the territory, it's not an Octavia problem
maybe we should have a buddy read situation?
That was an incredible video!! I'm ready to lay down my life for Felix Ever After! It was one of the first books we ever gave 5stars to and an all-time favorite!!
Also, We've been seeing lately reviewers criticizing You Made A Fool Of Death With Your Beauty because according to some Feyi "destroyed" a family??? Can we talk about the fact that if the protagonist was a white woman, there would be comments like "sugar daddy romance" or a messy protagonist doing everything for love and how brave it is of her to choose her happiness above all else, to "get the man" or something along the lines of she found a second love, a "soulmate" after a painful heartbreak and she's lucky... But Feyi isn't lucky, she's selfish? And they would be the same people reading Colleen Hoover! It makes me furious.
Thank you so much for acknowledging the insensitive way race is represented in The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Similarly I feel like the queer aspects of this book arent handled well at all (the whole rant Evelyn goes on to explain the textbook difference between lesbians and bisexual women felt so weird to me). When I first read it I was so stunned that none of the reviewers that absolutely raved about it mentionned the racist undertones and awkward LGBT lessons in it. How can this book be featured in so many "best books of all time" yet so little people talk about its issues.... Baffling
LITERALLY!!! not sure if you’ve seen the video where i critique Evelyn Hugo in full but here it is if ur interested!!
one thing i think i forgot to mention was the annoying weird random line about how she “marched w mlk”😂😂😴 th-cam.com/video/NbOD2GH1WuM/w-d-xo.html
Thank y'all for what y'all said at the end about cheating in books and the critique it does (or doesn't) get. I've never read any of those books so I can't comment on them, but it makes me so uncomfortable the way cheating is so commonly depicted as romantic in shows/books (season 1 of Outer Banks comes to mind) and no one ever seems to say anything! I never realized it was something only white media was getting away with, so thank y'all for bringing that to my awareness. Definitely bullshit that people would complain about Black books but not other media, either critique them all or critique none. I tend to fall into that first category with cheating in media (critique it all) and the points y'all made in this video have me wondering if that's something I should rethink. I love that y'all's videos challenge my point of view sometimes.
While I personally wish it was used as a plot device less, I can still enjoy a book with cheating because a) I can enjoy books while also recognizing issues, or b) I can recognize that it's not always being glamorized or romanticized (in which case it generally doesn't bother me at all). But I think I lacked nuance here, y'all's channel has opened my eyes to that a few times now and I appreciate it so much. I genuinely believe that watching y'all's channel has made me a better and more responsible reader.
This is a very long winded way of me saying y'all are my favourite booktuber and I appreciate how y'all are so good at bringing nuance into conversations and topics. Y'all've taught me a lot, and y'all don't owe me that but y'all have a forever fan in me.
Also, morally grey characters tend to be my favourite, they always feel the realest and most human to me. So I'll definitely be taking a closer look at why cheating specifically bugs me while I am much more empathetic to other things. Fear of one day cheating is a big OCD theme of mine (actually diagnosed, not throwing it around willy nilly lol) so I'm guessing that's got a lot to do with it.
read this comment three times and teared up more with each read.
speechless…thank you
controversial opinion but this is how we feel about animal deaths in books. many (non Black readers) can comfortably handle scenes of Black bodies being brutalized and tortured and abused both physically and socially but an animal killed off page is too much. we invite readers to question why an animal life matters more than a Black one. why an animals death/abuse is more sad and uncomfortable to witness than a Black human being’s.
we want to challenge more ppl to question why that is and sit w the answer which may be uncomfortable 🖤
that being said, we’re in no way saying it’s problematic to not be able to handle animal deaths in books!!! that’s valid, we all have content that we prefer to avoid, and that’s completely ok
hope this makes sense?
@Jesse On TH-cam makes total sense! As an environmentalist, it actually drives me bananas how so many people seem to think animals are more important or valuable than people, even in real life. I literally had a friend tell me once that she wishes humans would never build another house (including affordable housing) because we take too much from animals and there should be less of us anyway. And didn't see why that was fucked up even after I explained. It's weird to me how people find animal death or cruelty so much sadder than people, just like the reverse and not caring about animals at all and seeing them almost as objects is also weird to me. I never really understood what motivated people to devalue other humans that way, but what y'all are saying totally makes sense.
I love seeing your very thoughtful information about interesting topics. I just read Fledgling in January and it was my first OB work. It was very unique.
Akasha is also way too adorable 😍
the feldgling convo is very interesting because the way authors write child vampires differs so much. in the book 'let the right one in' theres a 200 year old vampire in the body of a 12 year old child, and even though theyre old and smart, theyre brain kind of stopped developing when they turned so they still have a childs brain and act like a weirdo child? if that makes sense? but then books like iwtv have the child vampires mind continuing to develop even as their body remains frozen in time.
theres a great episode of batman the animated series featuring a villain named babydoll. shes an adult but has a rare condition that keeps her body looking like that of a small childs. she was a child actor and wanted to progress out of those roles but because she looks like a kid everyone treats her like one. she even starts to have a romance with another villain but he breaks it off cause her childish appearance made him uncomfortable.
interesting stuff! i dont know if theres a clear line with characters like this and whether being attracted to them makes their lovers PDF files but its def one that leaves you pondering...
Gosh - I love y'alls content so much. Y'all are always having such interesting conversations and discourse. I genuinely appreciate what y'all bring to this space and to bookstagram. This was a fascinating watch. Thank you Jesse
I have thoughts about Fledging as a big fan of Octavia Butler. As disclaimers, I'm white and I read the book years ago, so I don't remember plot details well and maybe if I reread I would have different opinons, it's possible
The protagonist of Fledging is indeed a 50-something vampire in the body of a young child who has sexual/quasi-sexua relationships with adults in adults' bodies. This is indeed very uncomfortable, but it is also far from the only uncomfortable aspect in the vampire dynamic. At the start of the book, the protag feeds on a adult man which very definitely has adult undertones, but--despite the bodies of the two--the power dynamic are actually tilted in the vampire's favor. When a vampire feeds on a human, the human is forced into a bond with the vampire; that first human even reflects that he would be disgusted at what he was doing, but the compulsion by the bite is too strong to resist.
So in the book in have contrasting feelings where you're disgusted by the very purposeful appearance of a pedophilic relationship while at the same time you're also discomfitted because a vampire bite basically strips a human of agency. It forces those quasi-sexual/sexual feelings just to the vampire, but also anyone else who was bitten by the vampire (they're called symbiotes). Also, once a human is bitten, they must continue getting blood from their vampire or else they will go through withdrawl and most likely die.
Butler has another series Xenogenesis where there are these forced bonds humans have to live in, except it's aliens instead of vampires. In my opinion, anyone who dismisses these books because they're "problematic" is entirely missing the point. Bulter knew what she was doing when she wrote these things; when you read these books of hers, you're *suposed* to be uncomfortable. By choosing to have the protagonist of Fledging be a technical adult who looks exactly like a 10-year-old, she purposefully causes that conflict in the reader's mind and then has that conflict conflict with the other consensual issues in the vampire/human dynamic because she wants to force you to think about these things.
Butler doesn't necessarily leave a clearcut answer in any of her books about what is right or wrong; that's left to the reader to grapple with. I definitely think you can take a writer to task for not directly adressing problematic aspects in their texts--for example in stories targeted for younger readers--and I also think that by including contentious elements to their works, writers should recognize that they're inviting discussion, including discussion that may be very critical to them (to the point where they might be called racist, sexist, etc). But I in addition believe that uncomfortable literature is very important, and that to condemn a book for working with very problematic things would stymy a person's/society's growth. (And, as you say, marginalized creators are disproportionately affected by this because their stories not being the "standard" have their messy/controversial bits stand out and threaten an audience more.)
Unrelated, but I must defend Akasha, let puppy in video. Also I'm about to watch Jonathan's video and have put Lightseekers on TBR, thank you!
Lots to think about here, thank you for this lengthy, thought provoking comment. would love to hear input on this from others too! what do y'all think of Corey's stance? let's discuss!
hehe i feel like a high school english teacher LOL
29:05 this is what makes me so happy about the discourse around legendborn. I've only seen black tiktoker's talk but I love seeing people being so happy that she makes bad decisions.
I haven't even watched the video, nor do I plan to. The word PROBLEMATIC should be stricken from the world's vocabulary - especially in regards to art of any kind.
ooo what about the word BYE
I actually want to give Lightseekers a read! I appreciate the warnings about the DID rep for sure. I trust it more knowing it's written by someone who is a Psycologist and has done their homework. I really enjoyed this video, keep up the amazing work Jesse!
thank you Bex, completely agree! also its totally possible that Kayode lives with DID himself! forgot to mention that
I'm thinking about the whole "writing unhealthy bdsm practices" thing, as someone who writes erotica. I think there's definitely an appeal in the fantasy of your partner intuitively understanding your desires and needs without having to talk about it beforehand, and I think that's a big part of why it's popular in writing to skip the more realistic (and irl mandatory) negotiation scene.
I guess, for my part, I'm a big believer in "allowing" (dislike that word) unhealthy fantasies, as a _general_ rule, as long as they're always kept in the realm of fantasy? I think it's a bad idea to do that in YA, since young readers are less likely to get that nuance, but in adult fiction, a disclaimer of "hey, please use safewords and negotiation and aftercare irl, they're a lot of fun and also not optional" would be enough. It's a shame we so often don't even get that!
Also, with the "immortal x non-immortal" romances, I personally like explaining the immortal's age as being sort of, like, stagnant. Like, they can learn stuff, they can develop skills, but they can only access that stuff when they think about it really hard. I figure that living forever could make your relationship to time really screwy, and without mortal affairs to ground you, maybe you really struggle to hold onto things. If a vampire dies at 18, they're generally stuck at 18, never to grow physically _or_ mentally beyond how they were at their time of death.
That then, of course, adds a fun element of their love* giving their life more substance and meaning, helping to ground them back in the here and now so they can learn to be human again.
*Could be platonic love, too!
Anyways! I really liked this video. I think it's always super important to read works in good faith and try to understand what was intended, to try to take what value we can from something flawed, to ensure creators are given the chance to grow and learn when it's a nuanced situation--but _especially_ when those creators are from marginalized groups and therefore going to get hit a hundred times harder for any perceived imperfections.
And we need to let minority writers write, like, messy characters and messy situations! There are so many heartbreaking stories of creators who tried to tell stories true to their own experiences and got their lives absolutely upended, had their careers destroyed, or got driven back into the closet, away from their own identifies. It guts me. I really hope we're learning to be better.
appreciate ur nuanced content and perspective. would love to hear what others think of these points if anyone is willing to chime in!
@lorelei I agree that it's definitely a weird double standard that does exist for marginalized creators. The expectation that as a POC or any marginalized group, you inherently have to be "ultra woke" and represent every single other marginalized group. Not allowed to have toxic traits or make mistakes. So demotivating and disheartening.
I respect your view entirely and taste is so personal, maybe esp. in romance/erotica because kinks are often kept so secret and shamed, and fiction allows people who otherwise don't feel comfortable sharing their likes/dislikes to have a safe space to fantasize. Now y'all know there's a 'but' coming up, lol. It's not really a disagreement, but I do see a problem with the "vampire is 119 but stops aging mentally at however old he is at death" is that now the human partner is gonna be problematic because once they reach 25 or higher, we're getting into some ick factors with the shoe on the other foot. (Unless the partner gets undead too, I suppose.) I think the author would probably have to use your idea--that it's *possible* for the undead person to mature, but only if they try really hard. Of course then we'd need to know why after 116 years they're fine with remaining in a 16-year-old headspace for a century, because that's kinda weird. (I don't know if that very very common complaint about Edward in Twilight--why the hell is he repeating high school every year?--has been addressed 'cause I've never heard one that makes him seem anything but a groomer.)
Ummmm sorry, that was super long and barely on topic. My apologies! I wish you all the best with your career and I love to see a variety of takes on different types of romance subgenres. If I said something offensive please forgive me, it wasn't intentional. Thanks for reading this far if anyone did, lol.
@@kiwilerner Pish posh, you're fine! I agree! I think you probably have to either have a sad short-lived romance or have the vampire become able to age, at least mentally (assuming she's got an adult body--otherwise physically too, because this isn't some sus anime), thanks to their mortal attachments grounding them.
White person here, but from South Africa. I love your discussion and conversation around this topic. I didn't realise black authors were hauled over the coals more than white. My personal stance is that I wish more (white) authors suffered the consequences of their actions - especially those using their fame as a platform - a bit more severely. Nigerian authors are fantastic storytellers! I loved your take on Lightseekers, and I am actually going to see if my local library has it. With regards to Anne Rice: Claudia (the child vampire) is actually a character she created in memory of her daughter who died when she was like 5 or something, due to leukaemia, and so she remains an eternal child. But I want to say there is a difference in how she wrote Claudia and also with having a woman in a kid's body being frustrated with never growing up, vs a man desiring a woman in a kid's body (Interview with a Vampire is one of my favourite books) but I haven't read fledgling yet, so I cannot honestly say. Twilight was an issue for me, for your reason and many others. Anyway, just wanted to drop in and say hi, love what you do.
I clicked on this video so fast and it did not disappoint ❤
High key took this as a book rec video, because I really liked being told about why something could be an issue for me, but why I should read it anyways. Hope to see something like this again!
This video was amazing! Do you have any resource recommendations on the psychology regarding different races responding differently to trauma? I had never thought of this before.
Your videos are so thought provoking 😊💭
Thank you Jesse for being real and nuanced. You really preached about Rise to the Sun. As for The Hate U Give, I think most woke YA books are kinda preachy, and whiteness and the proximity there to is equated to mainstream. Supposedly Star had a white boyfriend for social commentary, but it was definitely a grab for acceptance. Not that interracial relationships are bad.. and I do still love The Hate U Give. I totally see where you’re coming from, though.
In regards to 'the wedding date'... I get what you're saying about the author introducing deep topics like race without delving into it deeply. Basically pick a lane...either be a fun romance book or be willing to delve into the issues.
I will say I kept wanting sweets because she has a wonderful way of describing food :)
9:27 the dog said fck what you talkin bout, let's play. lmaoooo.
Lmfao, my German Shepherd does the same thing when I'm trying to record.
Love the video, btw!
Thank you!!!
This response late, but I only recently discovered your channel. At the time I found this particular video, I was just about to begin Fledgling by Octavia E Butler. When you said it didn’t age well, my first reaction was, “How dare you speak ill of the works of the great Octavia E Butler!” Now I’ve read it. I liked the story, but … wow! There is a cringe factor in the reading. This is exactly the type of book that those DeSantis types would try to ban in Florida. I would support putting a trigger warning on books, but never ban. That’s the same as burning them. Anyway, good luck with your channel. Your video was very well presented. Peace.
You have sold me on the Lightseekers. Appreciate discussion around "this could be problematic, but these things are brilliant". I think being aware that you might find something uncomfortable going in is great. Also appreciate the difference between- plot devise to shock you and have "a twist" vs well thought out story with the it feeling truthful.
Loved you thought at the end "it feels like the author's a psychologist,...oh he is!" 😆📚💜
...now I need to abadon and go to work 🙈. I should have known this was not a "great video enjoy your book" type of comment video, I did this to myself! 😆
thank you✨❤️
@Jesse On TH-cam Finished watching in my lunch break, amazing video - thanks for pushing us all to keep thinking (what a crazy idea!) Will add coherent thoughts later.
Also - just wanted to share appreciation that you have a massive channel, but engage in the chat. Just want to let you know your time is appreciated, but equally because I have said this don't feel the pressure to HAVE to. I love your enthusiasm for the community and conversations around books and say viewers appreciate it. But equally you get LOADS of comments so totally understand if you don't get to them. Keep looking after you, Life is hard, books are awesome.
💜📚
Thank you so much for sharing y'alls' perspective! I will definitely be sharing this one around!
I never really put that much thought into the child body in Fledgling because I was so struck by her struggle to survive after leaving the “lab”. But like yall said, it didn’t age well. I’m telling on myself when I say this, but survival, particularly mine, can make it easier to not see other problematic themes in stories.
Will definitely be checking out Jonathan's review. I am very late to the party and only read THUG last month. I am very white and did love it. But I was definitely struck by how 2 white characters were shown as - correct attitude Listen and learn. Incorrect attitude - nope you are racist, accept and apologise. I did appreciate it, as so many people deny or don't get "casual/ institutionalised racisim"
But i really appreciate how this can be "well, yeah obviously"
My journey does not start and end with Angie Thomas, but I do enjoy her books and although stuff like children growing up with "this is how you interact with the police - show your hands" absolutely shocked me (I live in the UK...and am very white) and spelled out what life can be like it totally makes sense that this was aimed it a way so I (white personnel my rose coloured glasses and cotten wool coat) got it, which does not make the best reading experience for others.
Until you said it, I did not see how much effort went into "he's not really a drug dealer" narrative.
What was a great reading experience for me was reading if alongside Channel Miller's "Know my Name memoire" so it really brought home the idea of "what is a Life worth" and how victims need to have the image of being "worth" something ti have justice. Which is disgusting and should not matter.
As always that's for thought provoking videos and encouraging conversation...now to watch the rest 😆😆😆💜📚
Have enjoyed his video and subscribed.
I like how you both had different things to say about it that I could not pick up on not having that experience. I still really enjoyed the book but am glad to have this context to put it in and see it "of it's time" in the history of literature.
He recommended another book which I have added to My TBR genuinely so exvited for as it is an author I want to read from! 💜📚
The perfect combo: having y’all’s live sprints on my TV while watching this video on my phone 😍
squealing!!! ty bb!!!
Omg I love y’all’s takes on these books! And honestly there was a whole lot of mess with Twilight and the characters. Also OMG yesssss!!! I didn’t know y’all had a degree in psychology!!! I am HERE for it because so many people do not understand how trauma manifests for others and how those need to be shown without ripping down BIPOC authors and their characters!!! And honestly Taylor Jenkins Reid is my nemesis!!!! I hate her books because she always writes POC characters so wrong by writing them as if they’re yt 😤
Another black author that I really would love to get in to but can't ethically recommend because of their past actions is N.K. Jemison. Like I literally fell in love with her short stories anthology book How Long 'Til Black Future Month. She should understand the amount of power her social media platform yields however I don't think she does and likes to go after small people which results in tragic consequences. One incident is with Isabell Fall (a pseudonym) who wrote a short story called I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. N.K. Jemisin was very vocal about calling out the article and the author despite her admitting to not having read the story in the first place (the article was taken down a week prior to N.K. Jemisin's post due to the attacks and controversies it created). The attacks has forced Isabell Fall to out herself as a trans woman, got hospitalized for suicide attempts and has since detransitioned. N.K. Jemisin has since apologized to Isabell Fall and has written an article about it last year but the article seems to still be making excuses for her actions so it still doesn't sit well with me.
I believe in giving people second chances. We're all bound to make mistakes. However, we should all be held accountable to not making those same mistakes especially when we're made aware of them. After this incident however, Jemisin joined other famous authors (Sarah Dessen, Jodi Picoult and others) in bullying a college student for a quote from an article from way back in 2016 that was taken out of context. Even though Jemisin and the others have apologized, it just doesn't sit well with me that these famous authors are using their platform knowing the influence they hold to attack powerless individuals. Bullying is just something I feel really strongly about.
These two articles I think explains these two incidents far better than I would:
www.vox.com/the-highlight/22543858/isabel-fall-attack-helicopter
outwritenewsmag.org/2022/02/isabel-fall-casualty-in-the-fight-for-good-representation/
www.vulture.com/2019/11/famous-authors-drag-student-in-ya-twitter-controversy.html#comments
nkjemisin.com/2021/07/statement-on-isabel-fall-comments/
The thing I was side-eyeing in Queenie was her aversion to black men, which is what I thought was gonna come up lol but the non-black ppl who were judging probably weren’t clocking that.
more so, it’s the fact that it wasn’t something the author or the main character thought that was something worth dissecting a bit further. Especially when her aversion to black men appeared to be connected to S A from a black father figure (it’s been a while so excuse me if I’m getting some facts wrong).
Was hoping they would have explored more nuance there.
ok now THIS is a criticism i can mess with! a couple folks mentioned this and i will def keep an eye out for it on my reread. ty for bringing this up
@@JesseOnTH-cam Thank you for reading! Would love to hear your thoughts whenever you get the chance. Thanks and take care!
i love the nuance! i think this, and your videos in general, bring something really really important to the conversations being had in the book community.
🥺 thank you!
Wow, this is the first video I have seen of yours and I think you are having such important conversations. Thank you for making this content!
thank you 🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺
Thank y’all so much for this great video! I really appreciate all the time and energy y’all put into videos like this and I always learn a lot ❤
I heard that off-screen squeak and thought "cute" then HELLO. PLAY PLS HUMAN. hahahah
You’re so far from pissing me off haha. The edits are great, the info top-tier. Just all-around applause. So glad i found ur channel
literally tysm haha someone said my edits are jarring and i was like that’s the point hehe so i’m glad u like them :)
Rage of Dragons and Fledgling are two books which would definitely appeal to me based on synopsis alone. Shame about the problematic aspects. I'll probably add them to my tbr list anyway.
awesome! feel free to come chat about them/your thoughts
Subscribed. Such a great video and honest dialogue about subjects matters, topics, and storylines in books. I hope you a great day!
🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺💓💓💓 thank you
I completely agree with you on Lightseekers! Getting a non-Western, non-white perspective of mental illness is important, especially in moving forward and expanding the conversation. The book itself was interesting and refreshing. It is so different from other white thrillers which tend to run together for me.
You didn't piss me off at all. And yo, you don't have to phrase everything perfectly you're still making great points.
This connects so much into other reading I'm doing right now, and it's very helpful to appreciate how much slack (especially white) people will give white authors, and how harshly they will scrutinize any author who isn't white, and it does drive me up the wall that we're not past this yet.
Thanks for your great videos.
I don't really comment on TH-cam videos, but I so agree with what you said about The Passing Playbook, and I don't hear a lot of people talk about it. There were other criticisms I had but the closet shaming really rubbed me the wrong way. In general, I felt like the conversation surrounding coming out was questionable, at least to me.
thank you so much for commenting! it means a lot :)
Really loved hearing your thoughts on these Jesse! A really interesting discussion - thank you for sharing! ❤