Chinese Speakers 𡦂喃- Understanding The Magic of Vietnamese Chữ Nôm Chinese Characters 越南 漢字
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
- Chinese characters have been used for thousands of years to write Vietnamese. Not only did the Vietnamese use Chinese characters for Chinese loan words, but also used the traditional Chinese 6 書 methods for building brand new 𡨸喃 Chữ Nôm characters to be used especially for Vietnamese words. In this clip I'll show you how to decipher Vietnamese chữ nôm characters and if you speak a language like Chinese, Japanese or Korean which also has a shred history of using Chinese characters, I'll show you how to fast track building up vocabulary in Vietnamese.
#Vietnamese #漢字 #chữnôm
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I am a vietnamese, I can read Chữ Nôm and when I see this video, I say wow. You learned Vietnamese so deep
It's fascinating to see a Westerner taking interest in, and studying this deep about Chữ Nôm.
but he's still incorrect by calling Chữ Nôm "Chinese characters."
He's an Indian from Singapore.
@@trien30 is it wrong to call Quốc Ngữ 'latin' letters?
a roman would barely be able to read lowercase, let alone understand at first glance all the innovations needed to write most languages, especially Vietnamese
Chữ Nôm is a system that uses chữ Hán, chinese characters for writing
all innovations needed to write Vietnamese are still just changes to a system made up of chinese characters
edit: he says 'vietnamese-chinese characters' at the beginning so he's also being somewhat specific
@@bijoydasudiyaAustralia
I’m a chinese indonesian and my family speaks Hakka which is one of the more conservative of chinese dialects. I’ve stayed in japan, vietnam and thailand and it’s wonderful to be able to see links in all these languages, it made it far easier for me to learn them. I wish my Hakka were better, i think it would be even easier.
Bahasa china tdk berlaku di indonesia
@@bigfire6645 jangan rasis!!! ga baik.
Jangan gitu, di pedalaman kutim, jadi kuli pabrik semen aja kudu bisa bahasa mandarin
Ching chen han ji
I love how he’s so fascinated! I’ve been waiting a long time for this topic to surface!!
I'm a native Vietnamese, and frankly, after studying Japanese (with kanji), I've got to know more about my own language.
In fact, whenever I see a new Japanese word with kanji, I always try to figure out the Hán-Việt pronunciation based on the parts of the characters. That's why sometimes although I can read and understand certain Japanese words, I don't even know how to pronounce those in Japanese lol.
For example (taken from a Twitter post of a Japanese celebrity):
"【伊達さゆりの伊達ちゃんは伊達じゃない！！！】
*現在、第6回*を配信中です！"
I would read this as "Date Sayuri no Date-chan wa Date janai!! *Hiện tại, đệ sáu hồi* wo haishinchuu desu".
It came out of my mind quite "natively" right after my eye scanned through the "現在、第6回" [hiện tại, đệ 6 hồi // kenzai, dai-6-kai] because I didn't quite remember the Japanese pronunciation of this part, but I did read the "配信中" [phối tín trung // haishinchuu] which came later, in Japanese (because I had seen it a lot and I knew its pronunciation). I don't know how this even works lol.
Same! It's fascinating how learning a neighbouring country's language can gives you better understanding of your own native language's foundation as well.
You say you are a native Vietnamese, do you mean that you are of Kinh ethnicity or other ethnicities in north Vietnam as: Dao, Mieu, Nung, Tay, Thai, H-mong, Muong, Choang?
@@kimduong2332 通过他的名字可以看出来他是kinh族
@@TrendingNow484 If he be of Kinh ethnicity, not native Vietnamese. Only the ethnicities in north Vietnam( also called An Nam) as: Dao, Mieu, Tay, H-Mong, Muong, Choang are native Vietnamese.
@Chauncey BillupsNo ethnicity of Hmong in China, it is impossible that Hmongers' ancestors came from China.
Vietnamese is fascinating and allows you to get a glimpse of classic Chinese sounds. Study (學）is “học”, pretty much the same sound in Cantonese, Korean and Japanese. However, it has morphed into “Xue” in Mandarin Chinese, far away from its root.
Some Mandarin Chinese words are influenced by Mongolian and Manchu, while southern Chinese languages, such as Cantonese and Hokkien, retain the pronunciation of ancient Chinese.
@@chyuvictor true for the southern dialects part. That’s why Japanese and Korean sounds more similar to the southern dialects than the northern ones
@@chyuvictor retain MOST
really?In Japanese 學校is
gakko がっこ。學 is pronounced as gak.In Korean 學校 is pronounced as hakgyo.
學is pronounced as hak. Cantonese?.唔好認親認戚. Vietnamese
words like
quoc 國 woai外 hoang
黃荒dian電gu古are Northern Chinese
pronunciation. So it's a
mix . Don't know why
some people want
to leave out Northern
Chinese.
@@zl4101 They are not linguistically “dialects”! Calling them dialects are very political. They are seperate languages under Sinitic languages. Min Chinese languages relate to ancient Chinese the most.
As a Vietnamese, learning both Mandarin and Thai I'm really impressed with how you really dig deep down into these parts of our language that even natives might not even know. Btw there's this interesting part that it seems your Vietnamese pronunciation is all based on the Northern accent, which was where Vietnam was based, and then expand but there was also Nom based on Southern Vietnamese pronunciation which shifts some of the word based on how the Southerner pronounced it (like V -> D) during Nguyen Dynasty. And also a lot of Nom words are not standardized so different people can have different uses of the same character or different characters for the same words. Also, the Nom words also reflect the pronunciation of Middle Vietnamese for both Vietnamese or even Chinese, so it can be used to reconstruct Middle Vietnamese or even Middle Chinese, which I think shows how Vietnamese retain much of the old Chinese phonetic that is not disappeared or shifted in Mandarin.
Btw, one thought, have you ever tried to write Vietnamese in the Thai alphabet because as I think this is phonetically possible right? Or maybe Thai in Chinese-make script that is similar to how Nom work?
ซีน จ่าว
You can write Vietnamese in Thai alphabet , we have similar sound enough
Miền bắc nhất là các vùng nằm về phía đông và đông nam bắc bộ như : thái bình, hải phòng, quảng ninh, hà nam, nam định...vv . Phát âm sai giữa âm L và âm N , và trong một số tình huống kể chuyện hài rất là buồn cười , ở đó mà cậu chê bai miền trung và miền nam. Chỉ được hà nội giốc và một số tỉnh nằm về phía tây và tây bắc Của bắc bộ phát âm không bị lẫn giữa N và L.
@@vanphan9318 Cmt mình có gì chê bai giọng Nam hả bạn có vấn đề đọc hiểu tiếng Anh hả? Mình đang nói về khác biệt giữa khẩu miền Nam ảnh hưởng đến cả chữ chữ Nôm chứ chê bai gì?. Mình là người người miền Nam gốc miền Trung nha bạn ơi :)
Vietnam didn't even exist before 1950. It was An Nam before that. In ancient time it was called Van Lang and then Nam Yue. All were Chinese kingdoms ran by Chinese using Chinese language.
Quick note about moon and flesh radicals: you notice that for the words that mean something related to flesh, the two strokes in the middle are tilted (at least in handwriting, kinda like ">". The flesh radical actually comes from 肉 and not 月.
That’s correct! There are quite a few separated origins for this radical. Besides flesh, it can be “moon”, like in 明，朗，朔，望; “Me” in 朕，胜，腾；“boat” in 服; and “phoenix/friends” in朋，鹏，崩。
... Depends he may have mixed it up as Japanese will slap 月 with part of words meaning menustration. ._.
You are correct.
This guy is a genius! I can speak and understand Cantonese, Mandarin. But his pronunciations and writings are way above me. Hats off to you!
Knowing Japanese has made learning Vietnamese so much better for me. It's so interesting to learn the chữ nôm characters when studying new vocabulary and it makes memorizing it so much easier.
Wow This is amazing! Thank you for uploading this video. As a native Cantonese speaker, I've learned a lot, including the sound shifts through time and that Vietnamese actually has such delicate relationships with Chinese. This inspires me to learn some Vietnamese, thanks again.
+ your knowledge on languages totally astounded me!
I have a deep respect for Cantonese. Imagine Cantonese people had their own country. Their economy would tank 4th or 5th in Asia.
Great video! As a native Cantonese speaker I have always wanted to learn Vietnamese (as well as Korean) with my knowledge of Chinese characters but I never find any good resources online and offline. It would be great if there is a table of characters that summarize their connections to Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese and it would make speakers of these four languages easier to learn the other three languages.
welcome to learn Vietnamese
Rieul Korean app has lists of words in Hangul and Hanja
Good point. I usually end up bombarding Wiktionary and Hán Việt Từ Điển Trích Dẫn with queries when I want to look at this stuff.
Vietnamese are very close to Cantonese. I'm speaking as a Teochew person born in Vietnam. I can understand most of Cantonese by comparison to Vietnamese background knowledge.
However it would be difficult for Cantonese to learn Teochew and or Fukien.
My late mother can speak about 6 different dialects of Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese and English. She was a teacher and a business woman. Too bad that she doesn't pass that knowledge to her kids.
@@tr1bes Yah. As a fan of the etymology of these languages (not formally trained), I think Cantonese and most of the Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese came from Middle Chinese around the same time. Teochew and Fukien are from an older branch from Old Chinese, so they're not descended from Middle Chinese, even if they are in a south-China,north-Vietnam sprachbund.
I hope one day they will bring back Hán-Nôm in the education system of Vietnam as a optional side subject of literature. We shouldn't forget our roots.
VN vẫn dạy hán nôm nhưng không bắt buộc!! Nếu bạn k muốn quên nguồn gốc thì tự đăng ký mà học.
@@sw33tsoda It will also be convenient to learn Korean, but unfortunately hanja is rarely seen in Korea now.
I'm sure many Vietnamese will resolutely protest the resumption of hanom's study
I'm Vietnamese. I know very little about Nôm. I don't think it is necessary. It is an intermediary form. Hán > Nôm > Viet. We can eliminate the middle man, the Nôm. And just go Hán > Viet. We can do what the Japanese do, have the On reading and Kun reading.
English example.
cent = French
penny = English.
Lets say I have 3 glyphs. A coin with Lincoln on it. A "pen". and a "knee".
It is very clumsy to express an intermediary form in picto-phonetic form. A coin with Lincoln on it + "pen". + "knee". to express "penny". Very clumsy.
Thôi được rồi, ai thích thì tự học, đừng làm khổ mấy em nhỏ 🤦♀️
As a Vietnamese teacher, I admire you made this video to help people have some positive look abt learning Vietnamese, especially Chinese speakers and Japanese speakers.
Congratulations on such an excellent video. I grew up speaking Vietnamese and Cantonese and this is the best explanation I have seen. I also learnt a few things I didn't know and it confirmed some vague theories I had. As far as I can tell from 1 video, your knowledge is impressively vast.
I'm learning Chinese(for fun) as a Northern Vietnamese and i gotta say, Cantonese is so much easier for me. Only after a few times looking at characters and hearing the sounds, i'm now able to understand some simple product labels and catch lots of words when watching Chinese shows. The reason why i got into learning it was because there are a tons Vietnamese poems that are literally just old Chinese but got written down as Hán Việt by later generations. I just find it fascinating, how the language i was born speaking can help me learn other languages so easily
Maybe it's hard for you as Northener to find and have a chat with Chinese origin - Vietnamese in the North region, but if you live near Chợ Lớn (HCM city, District 5, 6 today) you will have high chance to hear and maybe can learn Cantonese. And one fun fact, Cantonese are also called Yue Yu (Tiếng Việt) in china. The word Yue is different though (in chinese)
Also, you were right, Vietnamese and cantonese today can somehow still fit the Tang Poem rule (thơ Đường luật), and some other facts (like sharing grammar + Vocabulary with cantonese), there's also a Research in USA (I read it like years ago) suggest that, maybe Old chinese (especially in Tang dynasty) were similar with Southern Chinese (Vietnamese, Cantonese, Min....) than Mandarin nowaday (because, there's a fact that Mandarin only became lingua franca since Ming Dynasty only), and the Research stated that, the reason we today call some of our vocabulary words " từ Hán Việt" because the Westerners (who acknowledge chinese before hand) realized the similarity when they learnt Vietnamese, so they thought those words have origin from Chinese, but with some facts (Tang Poem rule, grammar.... etc) we might think Chinese Vocabulary may have origin the other way around
Cantonese is better than Mandarin.
@@huyhan6303 Việt Nam dùng chữ Hán vì trước đây là một nước chư hầu lệ thuộc vào Trung Quốc, như ngày nay.
@@stoggafllik Không riêng Việt Nam, các nước xung quanh Trung Quốc (Nhật Bản, Triều Tiên, Mông Cổ, Mãn Châu, và các dân tộc bị diệt vong khác) cũng lấy chữ Hán làm nền tảng để làm chữ viết.
Một lý do khác, giống tiếng Anh ngày nay, tiếng Trung được xem là ngôn ngữ quốc tế vào thời trung đại ở khu vực Đông Á (bao gồm TQ và các nước xung quanh). Ở Việt Nam, trong cộng đồng người Hoa thì tiếng Quảng Đông được xem là ngôn ngữ chính nhé (không phải tiếng phổ thông).
Cũng như các dân tộc khác, Việt Nam cũng lấy chữ Hán làm gốc để cải tiến thành quốc ngữ, nhưng theo nhiều nhà nghiên cứu, việc hiểu chữ Hán đã khó, chữ Nôm lại là dạng kết hợp (gần như rất ít chữ Nôm có ít nét hơn chữ Hán gốc) nên việc phổ biến chữ Nôm ngay từ xưa đã cực khó khăn, khi bãi bỏ chữ Nôm vào đầu thế kỷ 20 (chấm dứt thi Hội) thì chữ Nôm biến mất là chuyện bình thường.
Lý do TQ không latin hóa chính là TQ quá rộng, ngày nay TQ chính thức công nhận 6-8 ngôn ngữ chính trong chính lãnh thổ của họ, mặc dù họ gọi đó là "tiếng địa phương", nhưng không giống "tiếng địa phương" theo cách hiểu của người Việt Nam, tiếng địa phương của TQ gần như là một ngôn ngữ khác, từ từ vựng đến ngữ pháp. Công nhận là thế, thực tế còn nhiều "tiếng địa phương" hơn, nên không thể latin hóa (xài ABC) một cách triệt để được, họ vẫn dùng Hán tự (đã đơn giản hóa cho bớt nét).
@@huyhan6303 vô lý. Dân tộc Việt Nam là con cháu của Trung Quốc. Nếu Trung Quốc có thể đối phó với chữ Hán, thì người Việt Nam cũng vậy. Người Việt Nam chỉ lười biếng vì đã xa quê hương Trung Quốc quá lâu.
18:22 you can basically just extend the "ng" sound from "bring, sing, ring, cling" and use it as a starter. A lot of people have trouble starting a word with "ng" but once I told them this, it's much easier for them.
Very impressive your knowledge of these languages. I speak Xiang dialect of China. It’s disappearing and I studied my own language just to better understand it. Your work is definitely inspiring to me.
Thanks alot for your dedication! Yes! I consider your video as a dedication to promoting Nom script! I am also a Nom learner, although I know that there will be no chance for Nom to replace Quoc Ngu, but I still hope that it will come back to life and become a part of Vietnamese culture. Thank you again!
Yeah, I hope one day soon Chu Nom will be the main writing system of Vietnam again, and Quoc Ngu can be used like pinyin for translation.
hope u have healthy to keeping cultre , u r guy keep culture, history while new generation just like Western culture
@@Nuhuh130 yes i agree
@@Nuhuh130 No way, the Latin alphabet has been adapted widely& civilizedly & fit to present Vietnamese. Vietnamese is one of SinoSpehereric but they want to uniquely identify themselves to diffirentiate from Chinese.
WOW!! I think I found an amazing channel here!!
I know Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese and some Vietnamese learnt before too.
11:52 17:00 I really like the way you analyse languages and link different languages together.
25:09 I feel same feeling as you do now🤣
Chào anh
Chào anh！广东话常用
你比大多数中国人都精通汉语。 还有也精通越语，日语，韩语，泰语。 非常厉害！
I'm so happy i got to see this video! Really impressive, and I especially appreciate tons of Vietnamese in the comments speaking of their experience. Good job.
It's funny that modern English is so similarly estranged from its historical roots as Mandarin is from old Chinese. So completely and utterly different, but we're both lumbered with a writing system that has inexplicably eccentric quirks until you go back a thousand years to trace the reasons why. And we are both disconnected from our sibling and neighbours languages as a result.
Really nice in depth video, thanks for shining a light on this subject.
As a Hong Konger I remember visiting Hanoi for the first time and found those characters in the Confucius temple, it was super fascinating! Also I realized within the first day that many of the pronunciations are so similar in Vietnamese and cantonese, but it could be confusing sometime haha
So you should learn more about HongKong history or Baiyue, Nanyue. Our Fathers could be a family then before we were used to with Chinese symbols. And similar doesnt mean the same so confusing is acceptable.
@@karitete52 too bad that part of history isn't really written down 😝 but yeah I'd love to learn more about the Baiyue! Since my father's side family has been in the south forever, I'm pretty sure I'm Baiyue as well. And I'm sure you guys realized we look more alike than with our brethren just north of Guangdong 😆
Baiyue has nothing to do with Modern Vietnamese even though they try to claim it
@@karitete52 Yes, people from Guangdong and Guangxi are the same as Vietnamese. The maternal line has a large number of Baiyue genes. The paternal line is the northern Han (including Vietnamese)
@@alexzhangdragonn3438: 🤣😂😉
Chinese family of scripts is such an interesting and complex topic. Except for those studying or interested in history and languages, even most Chinese native speakers are unaware of the diverse range of scripts, which had been created based on core principles of Hanzi and had historically been used by many living and extinct non-Chinese languages.
These living languages include Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, and much lesser know languages spoken by ethnic minorities living in modern PRC, such as Zhuang (Sawndip script), most of which, except for Japanese, later switched to a full phonetic script. However, you can still see the influence of Hanzi in non-Latin phonetic writing systems like Hangul in terms of its distinct way of stacking phonetic components within a square field in comparison to the purely horizontal or vertical patterns often seen in most other writing systems originating outside of East Asia.
The extinct languages having adopted a Hanzi-based script include Khitan and Tanghut languages. Jurchen had also adopted a script based on the Khitan large script until its descendent, the Manchu language, adopted a script based on the old Mongolian alphabet (whose origin can be traced back to the Aramaic alphabet) in the sixteen century.
The influence of Hanzi in East Asia is beyond the scope of Chinese languages themselves in a similar way to the legacy left by the Latin script in Europe, which extends beyond the scope of modern Romance languages. The adoption of the nation-state form of government in East Asia based on the idea of “one people, one state and one language” in response to western colonialism and the gradual collapse of the Chinese Imperial system (or the “tributary” system of multiethnic East Asia Central Empires, more accurately) in the early modern period have created the current circumstance in which Hanzi is viewed in East Asia through a more nationalistic lens.
Comparing Chinese characters to Roman alphabet is a bit, well, overreaching. Quite often, people tend to think too highly of their own cultural heritage.
Very well observed
I think you meant Mandarin speakers, not Chinese native speakers who also happen to speak Cantonese, Hakka, Teochew or Hokkien/Minnanyu at home.
@@trien30 Most native speakers of other Chinese languages are no more aware of the topic that I had discussed than Mandarin speakers.
@@jerrydenggm It's on just the "alphabet". It's Latin, the language itself, gave birth to Latin based languages. Latin means Rome (all hail Ceasar), not Latin as in Living La Vida Loca.
Thanks for interesting video. As my being Japanese, I feel I can read chu nom. It looks very similar to JP pronounciation. In JP, 文字 sounds "mo ji". 文言 sounds "mon gon". Very similar to "mot" 文' (1) of VN. In JP, 障碍(impedance) sounds "shou gai". "gai" sounds similar to "nguoi" 㝵人(person) of VN. I got to know for the first time today!
Probably you can read Chinese too!
@@haidancheng5199 Yes, Japanese feels guessing chinese words by seeing chinese charactors is possible, to some extent! （The guessing accuracy is maybe only about 20%）
I don't know how much you know about the subject but I study an archaic form of Mandarin called 中州音 from the Ming dynasty as detailed in the 洪武正韻 and it really shows the development between middle Chinese spoken during the Sui and Tang in the Central Plains and the early Mandarin spoken during the late Song all the way till now, I speak Yunnanese which is a regional topolect variety of Ming Dynasty Mandarin brought in during the Yuan and Ming conquests of Yunnan in the Middle Ages and by converting Standard Mandarin into 中州音 of the Ming Dynasty which preserves many archaic features not found in modern day Mandarin I find it is easier to understand Sino-Korean, Sino-Vietnamese or Sino-japanese words because many of the sounds are more similar and the vocabulary more archaic with similar meanings. For example the word for gold in Classical Mandarin is pronounced at least in the literary form /kim/ or /kin/ which is closer to the way the word was pronounced during the Middle Chinese period without palatisation and with a bilabial /m/ depending on the reconstruction also other palatisations that hadn't occured yet also help bridge the gap the word 元 was pronounced with a Velar Nasal Initial consonant /Ngyuen/ and also the distinctions between /w/ and /v/ also helped the word for Night 晚 was pronounced with a initial /v/ whilst the word for play 玩 was followed by a higher back vowel after a /w/ being rendered as /won/. These are just a few examples of how I personally use my knowledge of Chinese linguistics to understand Sino-Korean, Japanese or Vietnamese loanwords as 中州音 is relatively archaic and preserves many pronunciations of words that are closer to the Middle Chinese words of the Tang and Suei Dynasties.
That’s really interesting
That’s awesome. You were pretty much in a candy shop. What an incredible experience walking and seeing all the Vietnamese words in Vietnam. Thanks for this lesson Stuart! 👍🏽🙏🏼❤️
形声 type is indeed the most common type of Chinese characters formed.
It's not just Vietnamese Chu Nom that invents such characters, but all Chinese vernacular languages in their written form.
Do note that even for Chinese language, the modern written language is somewhat recent invention. In the past (over centuries ago), most Chinese in ancient China were illiterate. The elites were however literate in Classical Chinese. However, the spoken language (vernacular) is different from written language (classical Chinese). It's only recently when Mandarin is adopted as the common language that the modern written Chinese is based on vernacular (spoken) Mandarin.
Even Mandarin itself also coins many characters that aren't found in Classical Chinese (as in you won't find these characters in Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese or other Chinese language). For instance, 哪 (which, where) as opposed to classical Chinese 何, question particle 吗 is also coined up using 马 for its sound, which has got nothing to do with horse. 爸妈 is also modern term coined by using 巴 马 for their sound, as opposed to classical Chinese 父母 or 爹娘.
In fact, simplified Chinese itself is based heavily on sound radical, as such 認 becomes 认 and 讓 becomes 让.
That's so true
The sound radical system of "Simplified Chinese" is almost exclusively based entirely on modern Mandarin. Speak those in any language that is not Mandarin, and the sound radical system doesn't work at all, like 鬱 vs 郁.
越南人使用汉字作为他们今天仍然讲越南语的方式。越南人在北方被中国人殖民了 1000 年。 1000年来，越南人创造了草书-> nom字符。北方统治之后例如，法国人为了摆脱汉字的统治，接管了越南。今天创建越南国家语言脚本。美国和日本从越南中部入侵到越南南部。分裂成2个北越和南越/北越共产党/南越共和国。
The Vietnamese use Chinese characters as the way they still speak Vietnamese today. The Vietnamese were colonized by the Chinese in the north for 1,000 years. For 1000 years, the Vietnamese created the cursive -> nom character. After the rule of the North, for example, the French took over Vietnam in order to get rid of the rule of Chinese characters. Create the Vietnamese national language script today. The United States and Japan invaded from central Vietnam to southern Vietnam. Split into 2 North Vietnam and South Vietnam/North Vietnam Communist Party/South Vietnam Republic.
@@自由人民共和国 越南和中原的关系可不是什么殖民，那是正儿八经的血缘关系，是自古以来就住在一起吃在一起通婚通商文化交流的结果，就像欧洲国家之间皇室都有别国血统一样。东亚本就是一个巨大的自成一体的文化圈。
真正的殖民者只有西方白人，隔着几个大洋跑过来杀人放火还妄图颠倒黑白说中国殖民。
脸都不要了。
@@StuartJayRaj why you didn't explain and compare Old Vietnamese with Old Khmer and Mon there are tons of published works and catalogues of Old Vietnamese, but keep projecting Chinese and the nonexistent "Cantonese" ? May be its your master or the CCP agenda.
I have a youtube channel comparing sinoxenic pronunciations of Chinese characters and i've included hokkien and cantonese into the comparison as well. I appreciate the similarities but I didn't really know much about why they sounded so similar. But your video has taught me so much. Very insightful video!
Hey, cool channel, one suggestion - could you always put the literal meaning of the characters as well?
@@rob6927 I’ll do my best to include them. Thank you for the suggestion!
@@CJKV thank you, doing a great job already 👍🏼
Thank you for your comment!
Vietnamese has more similarities to Southern Chinese languages than Mandarin.
Cantonese and Vietnamese are my native languages. They're are so many words that sound like Vietnamese when I speak Cantonese.
Oxymoron. Vietnamese is a Viet-Muong language of the Vieto-Katuic branch of the Austroasiatic language family. Look at the Vieto-Katuic branch alone and you see there're 30 actual speaking languages are relatives to Vietnamese.
Chinese or Cantonese, their core vocabulary and grammar are Sinitic, 100% completely different to Vieto-Katuic.
Loanwords are not linguistically basic core defined characteristics of an language.
Claiming that Vietnamese is a "Chinese-like" language because loanwords is compatible of saying "English is a Hellenistic language"
@@cudanmang_theog But your language is 70% chinese words...
@@ChikyuuKun I'm not a Vietnamese speaker but I know that entire Chinese origin lexicons in Vietnamese vocabulary comprises 29-35% of all Vietnamese vocabulary (Alves 2009:2). 70%, 60% or any greater than that were absolutely hoaxes, had been inflated for their agenda.
Another fact: Many so-called "Chinese loanwords" in Vietnamese language are actually turn out to Austroasiatic words, could be found in Mon, Khasi, Mang,.... and the archaic Vietic languages of Krii, Témaeou, Arem,... who have ZERO contact with Chinese.
@@cudanmang_theog Việt Nam dùng chữ Hán vì trước đây là một nước chư hầu lệ thuộc vào Trung Quốc, như ngày nay.
wow this channel is my treasure discovery, your explanation blowing my mind, my family is overseas hakka descendant, when my grandpa still alive, he always talked to me in hakka, and what I found later, it turned out that the Hakka language has a lot of similar sounds to Japanese and Korean vocabularies, thank you very much for your comprehensive explanation
非常有啟發性，謝謝你讓我認識字喃的基本原則。
六書的會意，不是會議。
其他的解說都很精彩。
希望你能弄個手寫筆，示範出來的字會比用滑鼠的順眼八百倍。
Very interesting video about the etymology of Vietnamese words. I am of Sino vietnamese background and I do speak Cantonese and Vietnamese. I can also read and write Chinese. I agree with you that if you know Chinese characters, understanding Vietnamese is very easy, especially reading the Chu Nom. Thanks for the great video!
Here are more things to indicate to the convo in this very 'dead' script at 21:50
Back in the day, the written form of the language is known as「文」is tends to be formal no matter what the writer's background is. To be more subtle, informal, he would use 'simpler', more familiar common words instead of kings' or 'Shakespeare' words.
「𣋚𠉞」totally consists of 26 strokes and there's no way this considered as familiar words for 'writing' to some Viet back in the 19th century. To compare, the modern usages of the word in Chinese「今天」and Japanese「今日」each of both only consists of 8 strokes.
The Nôm was considered as a vulgar unofficial script in poetry in order to create the closest phonetic way to express an idea. Some Nôm is adopted widely in both poet and popular demand. Some Nôm is just one-time-only usage by an exact author meanwhile others just created parallels of it.
Some Nôm is specially created to record some Vietnamese swear or taboo words, or to mimic some 'weirdo' sound like the sound of urine, the sound of fart. Not to create the 'new' clear meaningful notations that can be written in full「文」form a.k.a common Hanzi. Some tried but failed every time they started.
The very case 'Hôm nay' is pretty a modern thing. Back then, lords and kings were to use「今余」in 1284, and 「肆今」in 1850 to indicate king-James-like thing as 'In this sacred/leisured/very day, I be with Ye to talk..'. Then the YY/MM/DD written as the year is the year of the reign of the king and sealed by him as the signature and no more idea of the 'Today' notation.
Then I doubt the both formal and informal writing the word 'Hôm nay' by Hán/Nôm is just「今」pronounced like 'Nay'/'Kim' depending on the context, On/Kunyomi likewise. Yes, both of「𣋚」and「𠉞」appear on the dictionary but no clue someone did use this combination in the past, just the Nôm with extra steps 🤯🤯🤯!
Even if someday Viet tried to restore Hán/Nôm in daily life, It still more likely for them to put「今」or anything other than「𣋚𠉞」, which totally consists of 26 strokes, in some text message. If you have Viet friends, you prob know Vietnamese are already lazy with their version 'Romanji' already. (Vietnamese be like the deep-south 'y'all' people of the States who want to simplify the language the most. 🙉🙉🙉)
I'm Korean with some knowledge of Chinese character. It is pity that Koreans doesn't learn Chinese characters anymore. And there seems so many possibility for Korean speakers learn Vietnamese vocabulary with Chu Nom. Especially since sound of Chinese character in Korean is more closer to Cantonese than Mandarin.
That's due to the connection with middle Chinese.
That's a pity, but I don't think hanja pronunciation in Korean is closer to Cantonese. I am interested in the pronunciation of middle Chinese，in fact, every dialect of Chinese retains many ancient sounds, but Cantonese retains the ptk of the ending of entering tone, and it has nine tones, so some people think that Cantonese rhymes more.
English: student
Vietnamese: học sinh
Cantonese: 學生 hok6 sang1
Korean: 학생, hak saeng
@@quach8quach907 Korean Haksaeng is closer to Minnan (Hakseng) than Cantonese. Why everybody in Anglo-sphere always promote Cantonese as most classic Chinese language? Probably you just brainwashed by Cantonese supremacist that promoted by Pro Independent HK.
wait, i thought south korean students had to learn several hundreds of chinese characters in school. they don't do it anymore?
Good stuff, mate. As a Cantonese and Hokkien speaker, props to you for trying to explain something complex pretty well. Keep it up.
I'm a native Cantonese speaker, i've learned Vietnamese(Northern)by myself in 3 months, although i can't really speak this language, but i can understand about 80% of the speaking. Because the pronunciations between the two are very similar.
this is true
Thanks for the great video~ I'm from Hong Kong speaking Cantonese ~ I always find cantonese resembles sounds of vietnamnese. Mind opening to learn the basic of Chu Nom that is so so so similar to Chinese will sound similar to Cantonese. Keep up the work!
哇!這洋哥們児比漢字文化圈的和、韓、漢、越人都瞭解漢學
I'm Vietnamese American Just discovered think about Vietnamse languages the I did not know.
Fascinating.
As a native teochew and cantonese speaker, I would say middle Chinese influenced many modern Asian Languages, like Japanese and Vietnamese. Traveling to Pho Hue its like living in the past for me. A lots things , especially culture are shared by both the local people and me , just that you have to study a bit history and old Chinese Language in order to have this feeling of connection
It is quite sad that Vietnam didn't keep chunam as a modern way of speaking or writing, as it is part of their history and culture
I speak Cantonese and Mandarin and also know some Korean from kpop. I have always been fascinated by the sound evolution of Hanja and how these Chinese loanwords shaped the Korean culture. Your video is absolutely brilliant -- with my knowledge in Canto+Mando+a bit Korean, I can understand everything you said even though I don't know any Vietnamese (and Thai, since you mentioned it). It's laying the first bit of foundation for my understanding of these two languages. Sometimes I look at Vietnamese words and try to guess what Chunom it represents and what it means; with your explanation the guessing is going to be easier, hopefully. Thank you!
Not sure if it’s true but Cantonese preserves more archaic feature of middle chinese comparing to mandarin (because of its long history) so it’s normal that Cantonese sounds more similar to Vietnamese than Mandarin.
Not really archaic compared to Min Nan.
Awesome intro explaining Vietnamese. With this knowledge, it makes sense for them to reverse back using chu nom
@7D although this video does explain chu nom has a degree of intuitive pronunciation, not all languages need to have intuitive pronunciation. In fact some languages that were written as they are pronounced are illegible to later generations. For ex, English. The solution is actually systematic education.
Odd thing is that I feel a lot of the characters invented specifically for Vietnamese seem very similar to simplified Chinese characters.
Don't forget many French words also came into the Vietnamese language as well.
When they met in Peiking, understanding letters eventhough don't speak their languages about 100 years ago. It was very easy things. Korean soldiers don't speak Vietnam language but can use Chinese letters to Vietnam old people in Vietnam War time.
There was no difficulty to communicate each other.
It's 1965~1974. Nowadays Vietnam old people generally don't know Chinese letters if he is not scholar. Moreover if you learn Japanese languages, there are many Chinese letters in it.
Some Japanese dictionary consist of only Chinese letters. I don't speak Japanese language but no difficulty to read and understanding.
Speaking is always very difficult.
I don't understanding even Korean in my University days.
What do you mean by that? I'm Korean. I don't understand rural Korean dialect. Some students don't pronounced exactly. There is a intonation in Words and stences. I suggest it's a song 🎵.
Languages is a song.
Wow, thank you Stuart.. you’re basically a Asian languages ambassador
16:20 actually một is the simplified form of 沒 một, it didn't derive from 文
Though characters that created from slight sound shift did exist, but they were usually written like 字 + a small diacritic that looks like く on the right
The word "Quoc Ngu" is surprisingly the same as saying "国语" in my hometown Cantonese dialect
As a Japanese who has learned Mandarin Chinese, I wish people still used Chinese characters in Vietnam and Korea so we can understand each other more. Our cultures and values must be similar.
附議！Abolishing 漢字教學 has blocked the possibility of more communication.
太長時間的屈辱史讓韓國越南全方位的想獨立自主 在擺脫桎梏的同時漢字也被丟棄了 實在糊塗 漢字雖然是外來品但已落地生根早以捆绑了本地情懷特色 此時拋棄的不是他人用來束縛自己的枷鎖而是屬於自己的一部分 换句话说他们其实也拥有着汉字的主导权 汉字也是他们的 只不过无法与中国争雄 可能正是因为这一点让他们忽视了很多
As a Vietnamese, I feel lucky that my country adopted “chữ quốc ngữ” as the current writing system. It is very logical & easy to learn. You don’t have to memorize thousands of 汉子to be able to read some simple newspaper. If you learn the spelling principles & know how the words pronounce, you can read and write any words. Similarly, I found the Korean alphabet system is very advanced. The Korean king who invent the Korean writing system is truly smart. 汉子is beautiful to look at, but it is not very efficient as a modern writing system. It is a real challenge for foreigners to learn 汉子and even native Chinese forgot how to write difficult 汉子by hand.
Great idea, I've thought about it too.
Some Vietnamese and Koreans might think it’s hard to learn and memorize Chinese characters, but it’s not that hard. The number of daily used 漢字 is limited, and learning those 漢字 is designed to be fun in school. The reason why some say it’s too many strokes and hard to memorize, they tend to forget that 漢字 is symbolic texts rather than phonetic. It means that a group of 漢字 share part of it to add the shared meaning. This prevents us from forgetting the Chinese characters often. Also, each character has a meaning, when we take a look at a book or a some news article, we may pick more information very fast compared to when reading articles written in alphabet. Most importantly, the reason why 漢字 was brought to Japan, Korea and Vietnam is because there was no writing system in those countries back then. This means we wouldn’t have a way of knowing our own history without knowing 漢字. I don’t know how much Koreans and Vietnamese know or even “care” about this, but Chinese historians wrote a lot about neighbouring countries such as Japan, Korea and Vietnam in those old history books. It’s very important for us to be able to understand what is written in those history books to find out about our own history. Even if they adopt a new writing system, many words are originally from Chinese and if you don’t know what’s the origin of the word or tale, nothing would be more sad than that actually. In Japan, we learn 漢詩(唐詩) in school to understand how people were living and feeling about things a long time ago and how their lifestyle has affected our culture and way of thinking in Japan as well. There is this beautiful phrase as “温故知新” not only Chinese but also Japanese people know. I believe Vietnamese and Korean used to know the meaning, but not any longer. It’s quite sad actually. I feel very thankful that Japan never dropped 漢字. Dropping 漢字 is letting go of the history we have built and discarding the knowledge (学) our ancestors have accumulated and passed from generation to generation.
I’m Vietnamese learning English and Chinese. It’s so interesting to know your channel.
this is such a great watch. I just wanna add a little bit about the vietnamese vocabulary. A lot of words in vietnamese have two versions: chữ nôm version and a chinese pinyin version. For example, the word "person" is "người" most of the time but in some use cases it will be "nhân" which sounds similar to 人 "rén". For "superman", vietnamese will say "siêu nhân" (超人 chaorén) instead of "siêu người".
Because there’s no such thing as sieu nguoi. In a compounded word, if the first word is han, the 2nd word has to be han. You use chu Nom like how you causally speak Vietnamese everyday. Can’t mix match han viet and chu Nom
"người" and "nhân" are 2 different words.
They are "equivalent", but they are 2 different words from 2 different countries.
agree (English) ≈ accord (French)
Almost similar but 2 DIFFERENT words.
a-gree has the word "grace" in it. The agree is to be gracious, to be agreeable. Accord has the "cord" the "heart" in it. Accord means to be of the same heart.
motor (French)
engine (English)
2 different words, almost equivalent.
motor: from "motion". correct.
engine: from "ingenious", not correct.
In most Latin based languages the days of the Week are based on Roman gods (Greek).
In English it is all messed up.
Moon-day
Tuesday
Venus-day
Thor's-day
Frida's-day
Saturn-day
Sun-day
It's all mixed up, like a Frankenstein.
Equivalents, not the same.
tele = distance.
television = distant vison (that is poetic and correct)
telephone = sound from a distance
telemetry = measure from a distance (correct)
telegraph = write from a distance.
The wife of the inventor of television, Elma G. Farnsworth, wrote a book called "Distant Vision". It is a correct TRANSLATION of the word "television".
motion picture = cinematography
cinematography = kinetic + graph (the writing of motion.)
"Man and wife." is not a correct combination.
Man and wo-man.
Wer and wife. (Man and Wife). Wer ≈ man. Werewolf = man-wolf.
He-Man and She-Rah.
Not He-Man and She-Man. (If you ever visited Thailand).
Thank you for this lesson. You are very knowledgable and I had to replay it 3x to understand. My father grew up in Hanoi and can read Chu Nom and Cantonese and this will give us another topic to discuss and be closer! :)
Totally support your ideas. I also want that my country will teach Chu Nom at school.
Chunom needs to be simplified and then implemented in Vietnam on a large scale.I'm interested in it, but I don't understanding Vietnamese.
I think it should only be learned as an elective rather than replacing our alphabet.
Def not chu Nom at school. At this point why not learn Hanzi when most of our ancestors before write Hanzi
Chữ Nôm vẫn còn được dạy bình thường. Nhưng nó là trên cấp bậc đại học nha. Và đương nhiên đó là ở các ngành như sư phạm Ngữ Văn, lịch sử học, Việt Nam học,... Nói chung là chữ Nôm vẫn được dạy như thường á. Việc đem chữ Nôm vào dạy cho lớp trẻ thì sẽ khiến các em bị quá tải. Chương trình hiện tại cũng đã nặng rồi và bộ cũng dần giảm tải để tránh tình trạng học sinh bị stress đến mức trầm cảm. Mình k thông cảm cho bọn trẻ thì thôi chứ sao lại bắt nó học thêm chữ Nôm nữa. Nếu những đứa trẻ ấy thích thì nó sẽ tự tìm tòi hoặc thi vào các ngành liên quan có học chữ Nôm thôi ạ.
Your approach to learning Vietnamese through chu nom is similar to my approach to learning Korean as a Japanese speaker.
The problem I have with mainland Chinese characters is that they’re too simplified. I found that the HK and Taiwanese characters were much easier to read as they’re similar to the Japanese forms.
I had fun in Korea communicating in kanji without knowing how to speak it the first time I went.
Korean is actually derived their modern language quite different from Chinese character. While Japanese and Chu Nom- Vietnamese are still borrowing a lot of Chinese. Like you mentioned Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese have lot of common words and similar sound. You are right!
Dude Vietnamese didn’t borrow Chinese characters. They created the Chinese character and later created Nom Vietnam so that the Chinese can’t read it. Because China was sending spy into Vietnam and also burning Vietnamese history text books. China steals everything just like in this modern day China spy on other countries and try to steal their design , technology, they try to steal vaccines patent because they are too dumb to create their own etc….
.
Why you think their dams are falling apart because they are not that smart to build something reliable…
Only Korean written words are different.
Unrelated to the point of this video, but I see your voice healed completely! IM THRILLED!
Only very few Vietnamese knows (Chữ Nôm) now.
Tbh why learn chu Nom when you can learn Hanzi. Chu Nom is lengthy and seem to be vulgar, while hanzi is a classical literature that you can connect with other countries
@@fujitofusan Chữ Nôm is used to write Vietnamese, if we wanted to write to other countries using Chinese characters, we would need to write to them in Classical Chinese 漢文.
If you know both Vietnamese and Cantonese, you will see these 2 languages have the most common vocabularies (compares to mandarin or other Chinese dialects)
Only in Sino-Vietnamese words, not for Native Vietnamese words, and don't forget Vietnamese put adjective after noun, which is reverse in any variants of Sinitic languages.
@@faustinuskaryadi6610 Who said they have the common grammars? The " Sino-Vietnamese" words are occupying 70% of the Vietnamese words. And Cantonese pronunciation has the most similarity with Vietnamese than other Chinese languages.
As a Filipino Chinese that speaks Hokkien this is an amazing video man! You're really smart!
Very interesting video. As a Cantonese native speaker I have always know we share a lot of pronunciation characteristics with Vietnamese (and perhaps Thai as well?). I imagine Vietnamese and Thai would have the same feeling hearing Cantonese: it's like my language but in gibberish. Seeing the comparison in action is just more intriguing. I wonder how Hokkien or Min is compared to Vietnamese and Thai. They branch off even earlier than Cantonese from the mordern northern Chinese language.
越南语和粤语本就不是一个语系的
Southern Chinese region (south of Yangzi river) were called Hundred of Yue region (Bách Việt 百越), right? It's also in Vietnamese Myth that Cantoneses, Vietnamese, Min Yue... were brothers but separated for exploration. We not even share vocabularies but in some case we also share grammar (compare to Mandarin today)
One fun fact, Cantonese is main language (lingua franca) for Chinese - Vietnameses here in Viet Nam (especially in Southern region).
@@printhelloworld7753 從來沒有人說是同一語系。粵語是漢語族文法和北平官話相近，但發音特點相近是一個很突出的特徵，單就發音而言比北平官話或者其他北方語言還要相似。
@@huyhan6303
> It's also in Vietnamese Myth that Cantoneses, Vietnamese, Min Yue... were brothers but separated for exploration
Lạc Long Quân - Âu Cơ?
@@huyhan6303 Yue in Baiyue and Yue (Việt) in Vietnam are from different Chinese characters. Yue Chinese and Vietnamese were never brother - the former is a native language with a lot of Chinese loanwords, the latter is ancient Chinese moving into unpopulated lands in Southern China replacing native tribes.
Bạn thật giỏi khi hiểu biết được ngôn ngử cổ xưa của chúng tôi, cám ơn bạn, thật hỗ thẹn khi ko hiểu hết được các văn tự của tổ tiên chúng tôi,
Bạn muốn thì có thể đk học mà ._.) các ngành như sư phạm Ngữ Văn hay các môn xã hội học liên quan đến VN thì Hán Nôm là môn bắt buộc đó
Great clip! Just one thing the left part of 脂 (flesh) is not 月. For the flesh, the inside part is a point and a up-lifting stroke; for the moon, it’s two horizontal strokes. Maybe you have already know, just wanna point that out.
Chữ Nôm was created by mandarins in ancient time whose qualifications for the job were to be proficient in the Four Books and the Five Classics so it's no surprise it requires the user to have a thorough grasp of the Han scripts.
Another etymological explanation of the Vietnamese 𠬠 is that it derived from the right part of 沒, which was also written like ⿰氵 𠬠 in the past.
This one makes more sense because 沒 is itself pronounced exactly like the number 1.
I'm Teochew. I often said to the Vietnamese that their closest language is to the Cantonese. I can understand Cantonese very easily but from a Cantonese person, they will have a difficult time with Teochew. Fukien and Taiwanese speaker would be able to understand Teochew easily because base on the history (2000 years ago during the 3 Kingdoms), the same people split from Fujian province to either Teochew or Fukien. Teochew people move close to Guangdong province and learn it easier.
Chữ Nôm is similar to Sawndip (สือดิบ) used in Old Zhuang language. I find some Sawndip in CJK unicode, e.g. 岜 (bya) and 崬 (ndoeng) meaning mountain and forest, equivalent to ผา/ຜາ (pha) and ดง/ດົງ (dong) in Thai/Lao respectively.
I'm waiting till Unicode gets off their asses and ads more Sawndip to learn it, but I'm curious as to your thoughts on Sawndip use for modern Thai (disregarding the mass of Sanskrit/Pali loanwords)? ^^
That’s awesome work! I have Mandarin, Cantonese, and Vietnamese lined-up for me to grapple with them… I’ll remember your insights! 😉👍🏼
Chinese characters when entering Vietnam are called Chữ Hán, Chữ Nho or Hán Tự, in my opinion you should call them according to the Vietnamese way of calling. I find that although Kanji and Hanja are both Chinese characters, they are still referred to by their Japanese and Korean names, so I want in the following videos, when it comes to Vietnamese Chinese characters, I urge you to call them by their Vietnamese names.
Chữ Nôm is entirely different than "Kanji".
It is an INTERMEDIARY evolutionary form between Chinese and Vietnamese.
50% of it is pure Chinese. 50% of it is Chinese in writing, Vietnamese in sound, just like Japanese with its On an Kun reading.
Han Tu is something similar with Hanzi, kanji, or Hanja. While Chu Nom is Vietnamese characteristics Han Tu, based on Vietnamese original sound but combine chinese Han Tu and radical
Haha 50% là chữ hán du nguyên và 50% là chữ nôm nhé
Man, you’re freaking amazing!
真令人惊讶与佩服
I always wondered about why Vietnamese was written in Roman script... The Japanese developed kana, the Koreans hangul, and other cultures devolved their own Bramhic scripts. (Thai, Lao etc.) But why Roman for Vietnam? It sticks out like a sore thumb! Thank you for making this informative video!
I always find it fascinating how different cultures borrowed characters and borrowed them for whatever purpose they saw fit. In Japanese, 空 by itself often means "sky" (そら) but in compounds it often means "vacant" or "vacuum." (E.g. 空気, くうき air, 空車 くうしゃ, car parking vacancy, 空間, くうかん, empty space) It can also be used as a verb, 空く (あく/すく), meaning "be vacant" or "be empty." It is the "empty" in "karate" (空手, からて), meaning "empty hand." (E.g. fighting without weapons.)
We used Nôm as our national script for a while , but then the French came, they did allow some Chinese and Nôm in the beginning as a way to preach Catholicism but then they straight out banned them and forced us to use Latin script. After that, reverting back to Nôm was too difficult to the common peasants, even hardcore Nôm scholars know this, so we went for Latin instead.
@lati long I'm talking about how the French banned Nôm, didn't mention anything about democracy, I might be a bit dull in the head but what's your point?
@lati long Then I guess I misinterpreted your words in the beginning, my fault. I do wish the general Vietnamese public would embrace Nom more. There was a conversation a while back by some scholars saying that there should be a mandatory Chinese/Nom curriculum in high schools, it received a lot of backlash since most Vietnamese people are now so accustomed to Latin.
It was not too difficult to revert back to Nôm, it was too difficult to study to begin with! Back when Nôm was the main language, there were very few people who were literate, one literate per village was not uncommon. After independence, the government encouraged their citizens to study the Quoc Ngu because of its flexibility and ease for beginners, and the time taken as well
@@-VoHungTam-CA Yes "literacy" always seems to be the pretext in separating people from their culture. It was the pretext of the PRC in wanting to replace hanzi with pinyin until they realized they couldn't dispose of it completely. Did you know there were plans to romanize Japanese and Korean too? "For literacy?" "Literacy" wasn't a problem in Taiwan or Hong Kong even though they decided to continue using traditional script. And it isn't a problem in Japan, where Japanese writing is rather complex. If the powers cared about "literacy" and "helping" the Vietnamese out, they would have encouraged the use of Chu Nom, it's refining etc... (because even Japanese script has undergone modifications). In my option, Western powers only wanted to help themselves to gain more control of the people, separating people from their cultural past and identity, with "literacy" and "making it better for the people" as a pretext.
Correction: the radical that looks like 月 that is placed ON THE LEFT of a kanji has nothing to do with 'moon;' instead it's a variation of 肉: 腹, 肺, 臓, 脈, etc. All of these are related to flesh/meat (肉), not moon/month (月)
15:44 ㄅㄆㄇㄈㄉㄊㄋㄌThat is the symbols people in Taiwan use to spell the sound of Chinese characters. Also a lot of people use these symbols to type Chinese.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I think those are a semi-phonetic script for Chinese learners before the days of Pinyin, is that correct?
@@崔莱 倉頡 is a type of Chinese input method that uses radicals to compose Chinese characters. It has nothing to do with the sound of the characters. Bopomofo (or 注音) is the symbols I've typed which is widely use in Taiwan to spell the sound of Chinese characters before one can write the characters. Bopomofo can also be used as an input method but is quite annoying some times since a lot of characters sound the same but write differently which takes time to select the right one you want.
@@vamst9 Yeah it's hard to get around that I guess, pinyin input is similar, compared to Wubi it is easy to learn but takes time to select.
臺灣人自己特有的拼音系統
@@劉秉宸-d7v 大陆的很多字典上也都有那玩意儿的，只不过因为难用所以没人用罢了。
My best friend Nguyễn Việt Khôi added the Nom characters in that learning document you mention.
please more about vietnamese
Btw the radical for moon and flesh is actually different (the bottom stroke on the flesh radical is a tick upwards). Surprised at this inaccuracy since your videos are really reliable.
It's interesting that most Vietnamese nowadays don't understand even a single Chu Nom character. This way of learning the Vietnamese language only works for learners who have some background in Chinese characters.
1. resources to teach chu nom (as in the whole system not just scattered words) is hard to find/lost during colonization. 2. very different from the recent national writing system. going hard to easy is quick but going back from easy to hard is very unlikely. 3. dont think viet communist would want to restore. the new nation writing system is one of their assets and reminder of what they have achieved to unify vietnam and improve literacy rate.
@@human3326 Chữ Nôm is too complex and awkward! How lucky we got Romanization of Vietnamese language. As a Vietnamese who can speak Mandarin and know many Chinese characters, I don't find it useful or necessary to learn Chữ Nôm. Though it is interesting and valuable in some situations, Romanization of Vietnamese language is one of great achievements that we ever had!
Thank you for making these video about long forgotten writing system that was created by the Vietnamese before the western influence. As a Vietnamese my self i dont even see a single soul in Vietnam making this kind of well research video about the Nom's writing like you . What a shame.
Have you ever seen Vietnamese numbers system 1 to 1,000?
It is fascinating to me, they are sounding more similar to Mon language, one of largest minority groups in Myanmar beside Karen & Kachin ethnic.
Kind of interesting because Myanmar is much far away from Viet Nam.
Viet // Mon
1 mot // moa
2 hai (old: hal) // pa (old: pa:r?)
3 ba // poe
4 bon // pon
5 nam // p'eson
6 sau // k'erau
7 bay // h'epoh
8 tam // h'ecam
9 chin // h'echit
10 muoi // choh
100 tram // klom
1,000 nghin // ngim
Another interesting to me is some of these numerals also show similarities to the Aslian in Malaya peninsular.
"Aslian" means simply "Aboriginal" in Malay language, kind of intriguing, because Malaysian language is more similar to Indonesian and Filipino languages, even there are many similarities to Maori in New Zealand.
Yeah because all the numbers in Vietnamese from 1-10 are all Austroasiatic-origin so it'd closely related to languages like Mon or Aslian, which are difference branches of Austroasiatic family
@@ToLeNam Where did you get that list from - I have many Mon resources, but so hard to find old vietnamese
Vietnamese and Mon both belong to Mon-Khmer language family bro. I even found some similarities between Vietnamese and Munda languages (a group of Mon-Khmer languages in Indian)
The Old Viet numeral is much reflected in the Muong language, the 3rd largest ethnic minority group in Viet Nam.
The Muong is likely the closest relative of Kinh language or simply Vietnamese.
The Muong people together with Tay and Hli (now aboriginal in Hai Nam island) live closely each other, built kingdoms and states in present-day Red River Delta or Song Hong.
If you ever heard the Trung Sisters, which is considered as one of greatest heroine in Viet Nam history, the history might resemblances the ethnic Muong, the original inhabitant of Red River Delta before Dai Viet raised up,
but still let the Vietnamese to confirm this.
@@aquielos The Muong and Viet are in the same Viet-Muong group. Amd back in the Hai Ba Trung era, there wasn't a Viet-Muong distinction, the distiction was onlu occurs in 9-10ty Century CE, while Trung Sister was in the year 49 BCE.
The Tay, Thai, Nung, Hlai, Zhuang... was part of the Tai-Kadai group that settled in the region of nowadays Southern China and Northern Vietnam.
Very good episode, got a little typo in (Huiyi), Should be 會意, 會議 means meeting.
That's very interesting! That a westerner can detect these relationship between the sounds of middle Chinese and the logic of behind the construction of the Vietnamese Chu Nom, that not even a native Chinese speaker would know. You're a pro!
Chữ Nôm is also the intermediate way that I used to study Chinese. I consider it is the easy path. Chữ Nôm is very useful.
Well done man! i really don't understand for a long time why "𠬠" is một? you are right, we must pronouce the character by Cantonese, yes, the cantonese is more nearly the ancient Chinese, and the Beijing language is a new language actully it fused ancient chinese and Manchu language. BTW, you guy can speak and write chinese, cantonese, vietnamese, it's Awsome!
i am a hong konger with good writing and reading skill in those Chinese/English. I learned Vietnamese with difficulties in those weird roman scripts at the very first beginning. after knowing chu nom characters linked to Chinese, my memory of those Vietnamese spelling gets much better with the knowledge of original Vietnamese original Chinese writing scripts. 100% agreed on whoever knows original Chinese writing scripts, go learn chu nom for better learning efficiency with original Vietnamese writing script chu nom form.
On a scale of 1-10, how much percentage of hanzi characters are used in chu nom script
I think Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese are closer to Hokkien or Southern Chinese than Mandarin.
Not always true since there are 4 categories for Japanese Onyomi.
@@faustinuskaryadi6610 I just knew that there are four kind of onyomi 🤔
previously I only know 2 kind of onyomi, Kan-On and Go-On..
I'm Cantonese Vietnamese. Vietnamese has 2 systems. Chinese - Vietnamese is 30% -
Original Vietnam is 70%
And I think Chinese - Vietnamese (Han-Viet) same as Cantonese (60-90%)
江 in Cantonese is pronounced gong，with ong as in Hong Kong
yea, for the 月
somewhat is different for the meaning of fresh⺼ from moon ⺝
can see a bit different. the fresh, or the fresh meat ⺼is from the fresh meat 肉，when it becomes part or the word it become simple character and changed to this ⺼
so is different words
If only the Nguyen dynasty never fell to the French, instead Westernising the way the Japanese did, then we'll see an interesting outcome with Chu Nom
Vietnamese writing was Romanized by Christians from first foreign priests to Vietnamese Christian for worship. Then it spreader to everyone. Moreover, later Nguyen and French helped to accomplish it as national writing.
Actually, it wasn't until after independence that the romanised Vietnamese became the official language. The government encouraged the citizens to learn Quoc Ngu because of its flexibility, ease, and less time-consumption
@@-VoHungTam-CA ít started ơn January 1882 all official documents to be written in Vietnamese in lieu of Chinese Han letters in parallel with French. In 1915 it started to stop Chinese exam of Thi Hương. Then Han Chinese was forgotten among the people.
@@vangiaido1285 True true, but wouldn't it happen anyway with rising of the Communist Party of Vietnam?
@@vangiaido1285 both VietMinh and later north Vietnam and south Vietnam govt adapt quoc ngu which then become main writing system
You are amazing... 🙏🏻😅 +1 new fan.
If you translate the Chinese terms you are talking about into Sino-Vietnamese, I would partly understand what you mean. In fact, I'm very unfamiliar with Romaji form of Chinese (and I can't read Hanzi), so as most of Vietnamese people. We call Chinese people's names by Sino-Vietnamese sounds, and won't be able to recognize them with the Hanzi names.
Han-Viet sound is also a pronunciation of hantu
It is so interesting to learn more about my mother tongue. Thank you for this video
I never thought I am learning Vietnamese with a western by using Chinese characters, I guess this is globalisation? Lol
This is culture 嗯嗯
I've studied Chunom by myself and found it is not that difficult. First, learn 214 radicals pronounced in Sino-Vietnamese. Second, learn 3000 Sino-Vietnamese. words. There are poems to learn those radicals and 3000 words. Third, learn basic Nom words. With that, I can read ancient Chu Nom poems with a little pause to look up nonbasic Nom characters. However, it's still difficult to understand ancient Sino-Vietnamese verses, or read modern Chinese texts because the grammar is very different.
As a Vietnamese I can say that Chu Nom characters are almost extinct. Because most Vietnamese only use Roman alphabet Vietnamese nowadays.
If the French people haven't invaded Vietnam, vietnamese might have been using Chu Nom characters today.
@@haidancheng5199 I don't know Chinese; I'm kind of glad that Vietnam got rid of Chu Nom Chinese writing. Because the new Vietnamese writing is so easy to learn. After 5 years of elementary school, one should be able to write whatever they say without misspelling. I am not sure it is the same with English or Chinese.
Nôm deader than dead.
Latin is still alive in scientific nomenclature.
@@haidancheng5199 I don't think so. In order to learn Chunom you should master Hanzi in first place since Chunom isn't phonetic symbol. Probably Vietnamese would invented something like Zhuyin Fuhao aka Bpmf rather than keep the very complicated Chunom.
@@dnguyen787 the comparison you just made is not at all true. Elementary kids can read and write Chinese after going to school for a year, and most will know common words by 5th grade. Vietnamese is just easier to learn since it doesn’t require that much memorization. However, this doesn’t mean that the Vietnamese system is better. Much of our understanding of Vietnamese comes from Chinese. Today, we pretty much stop teaching the Han viet system. This brings a lot of confusions on how our words are derived and what meaning it has
admirable work 👏👏👏👍
Vietnamese=(Chinese: Mandarin, Cantonese (Guangdong,Guangxi), Chaozhou) ) + Siam
漢字 is the common language of the East.
when I learn Japanese and Korean, it's also easier to remember the word when I know the Chinese-root of that word
Giải thích dễ hiểu: Chữ Nôm vốn là chữ Hán, nhưng vì chữ Hán nguyên bản không đủ khả năng đáp ứng đầy đủ các từ ngữ của người Việt, nên người Việt đã cải tiến nó theo cách của mình nhằm dễ phiên âm hơn
Ko dung hoan toan. Nguoi Viet vi muon tu chu, cho nen moi tu lam chu Non. Con chu Han la bao la, chu bai mà ko co.