I admit I don’t play DA but shouldn’t their Primarch get all “-wing” keywords? Or at least Death Wing? I assume he’s in on all the Inner Circle secrets in the lore by now…
Games Workshop: "WE ARE GOING TO OVERWHELM THE FAN-O-SPHERE WITH A CONSTANT STREAM OF HIGH-DETAIL CONTENT! EVERY DAY, A DETACHMENT! THEY'LL NEVER KEEP UP!" Auspex Tactics: "Oh? You're approaching me?!"
It's not the best detachement rule, but I like the idea. The ravenwing have to catch and lock the enemy in place then the deathwing come finish the job.
I feel like some people are underselling how much of a problem desperate escape can be seeing how it forces you to take one if they try to run which could be potentially brutal especially against more gun-lined focused armies
Honestly, it sounds like how the DAs were always supposed to fight back in the day when I got into them. We'll see if people can make it work but I certainly appreciate how fluffy it is )
@@EliteDarkAssassin it’s not even that bad you just wanted advance and charge, your underselling how much value the detachment can give in the right hands
I feel like people are forgetting what all exactly falls under the deathwing and ravenwing family tree now, it’s no longer just terminators and bikes. Stormspeeders I’ve seen do some good work from the back, which works great with illuminating fire. Ravenwing knights are cheap enough IMO, and don’t sleep on the command squad. Deathwing has a whole slew of stuff now. All veteran units (sterngaurd, bladeguard, etc), any unit azrael is attached to will get the keyword (so hellblasters being +1 to wound against the illuminated target 👀), inner circle companions have it, and probably most slept on all DREADNOUGHTS have it. +2 to charge for a brutalis dread, +1 to wound for redemptor dreads, charging in your opponents’ turn with any manner or dread or Judiciar lead companions/bladegaurd, there is some teeth to this detachment. It just needs more brainpower and planning, and I think that’s what people might be turned off by given some armies rules are powerfully simple and can easily combust your plans. But honestly I think it’s a good detachment overall, especially in the hands of a skilled son of the Lion.
It's just more of the same. If they had given Deathwing the desperate escape rule we could've been getting somewhere. DA are plauged by missing or bad rules with keywords.
Like I think others have mentioned... I'd be a lot more enthused if there were more options for Ravenwing... and it wasnt likely that most of their current models will get legends / upgraded come next edition...
Yep. Exactly. I started 40K with dark angels, and seeing how GW has treated em has made me despise them as a company. They don’t want their game to be fun and for every model purchase to feel like a good investment to the buyer. They only care about profits and use their game rules to manipulate purchases of product they want sold that perhaps isn’t selling well.
I like this one, really feels like it should've been in their supplement but at least it's here now. I don't quite know why people are regarding the Ravenwing charge as a 'suicide charge' when you're doing it to get Deathwing Knights or Assault Terminators in to clean up the enemy unit before they hit back. (Not to mention that Ravenwing unit could even just be a cheap Invader) It's going to be interesting to see in the hands of skilled players, because besides Deep Strikes there's the possibility of some big Terminator charges out of Land Raiders which might well then also be picking up +1 to Wound with their own shooting. Armies that like to get close to shoot like Sisters in Firestorm or Tau will also need to respect that counter-charge, which could be especially embarrassing for a unit that just moved within 6" for melta range. It's also potentially really bad news for Aquilons or anyone else pulling a 3" Deep Strike trick and expecting to get some shots off.
nice explained, how things could work, but just calculate, how many APs necessary, you are talking about: just rough calculation. Landraider, 270, 5 knights with char 320, and one ravenwing unit (if not just crap ... so maybe command and 3 ravenwing knights) 220 .. so without any better chars, weapon etc... easyly 850 AP, if you want maybe 2 chars with the knights we are talking about 1000 Ap ... so half of the army ... and having only one RW unit and one DW unit and a landraider. So you fill up with a 5 cheap Termis, and maybe 2 other cheap rw units... another 400. Which makes 600 AP left for shoting, grabing and defending objecitves, grabing VP, chars, bodys, scouting moveblocking etc ... the idea is nice, but I thing it is way to expensive to rely on it. It might be a nice bonus ... from time to time ... but gladius still will be always a much better choice in my eyes ... and with gladius, u always can pick the best units available...
It’s obtusely expensive to pull off, and until we know how they plan to dissuade players from using GTF or Ironstorm, those are strictly better for a list involving the same units.
Dark Angels continue to pay for the sins of the weapons of the dark age stratagem, heaven forbid games workshop do anything with their plasma niche ever again.
We continue to pay for inner circle from 9th edition 😔 that 1-3 always fails on the wound roll was Too Annoying so now we must spend this edition in competitive oblivion
Looks at the bright side. At least you have a codex unlike White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guards, Iron Hands, etc. I doubt any “codex compliant” chapter not named Ultramarine will get anything. Well, I least I have my Eldar. They seem to be eating good lately. 😃
quoting Auspex Tactics conclusio: "Seems better than the core Unforgiven Task Force detachment to me though?" ... no more words needed to describe the strengh of the new datachment to DA Players.
They should have given atleast advance and charge to Ravenwing models for free. Without that, they are not fast enough to always assist the Deathwing part.
Ravenwing are plenty fast though. Especially since you're not deep striking Deathwing in until T2 so even to keep up with the Deep Strike you should get about 20"-30" to play with.
@@Khobainormally I'd agree but he's literally the Primarch, if any unit should be able to be used in any chapter specific detachment it should be that chapter's Primarch.
@DrakonPhD I agree, but still, our primarch needs at least one keyword to work with those strats or both of needed. Perhaps the balance dataslate will add those keywords.
@@DrakonPhDhe doesnt mean it has to be dedicated to The Lion, but the fact that he receives no benefit from the Detachment rule whatsoever is absurd. He should be able to be both Wings in the army or switch between them like in HH
It took a few minutes after reading it to realise the variety of units available now! don't forget STORM RAVENS in hover can now move through terrain with the new strat dropping off dreadnoughts and termis with a nice 20in move!!
I played a couple of games with this at 1K and it is probably the best Dark Angel detachment by far, Belial is a good choice for this Detachment overall, I am not playing competitive so I ran him with a Deathwing Command Squad and he is a menace in the field, thanks to the Champion they get 3 inch bonus to the charge if a Ravenwing unit is already in the melee, he can massacre enemy characters thanks to his Precision on Crit Hits as well as him having Precision on his melee and the Champion's Halberd also having Precision, overall really fun detachment.
An interesting loophole in the Strength in Unity stratagem restriction of not pairing with AoC. You cannot target the same unit to trigger both but given the detachment incentivizes engaging with both ravenwing and deathwing units at the same time, you could choose one of the units to trigger Strength in Unity and the other to be targeted with AoC for additional protection assuming the enemy has targeted at least one attack against each unit. And since both trigger after the opponent has assigned their attacks you can make sure that the AoC is on the unit getting focused or just cause them to disperse their attacks more than they would really want to.
Glad GW finally added the whole turkey for Christmas instead of just the 'wings and the greens. Seemed like a no-brainer but glad it's an official detachment now
dear emperor that would be maddening. Don't get me wrong Greenwing's "I laugh at battleshock" detachment fails the sniff test because battleshock still lacks weight, but if battleshock was relevant I'd actually call it good. Plasma battleline though just feels like asking for another nerf bat.
This feels like a decent detachment. Battleshock strat not being locked to your turn is big and will just be hilarious when someone casually drops 2 tests on a led unit with Asmodai.
Cryhards: NOooooOooOo00 don't tRy iT aS itS tRaSh Keep us posted. It looks like there's some strong play to it. 7" DS charges and numerous desperate escapes are never something to be scoffed at.
@@dalecherrier3930 I'm baffled by the whining and complaining in the comments to be honest. If they said they think it's probably worse than gladius, I'd most likely agree, it probably is, Gladius is after all an absolutely amazing detachment. But claiming there is nothing of interest here is absurd. It requires more setup than gladius, sure, but that's hardly a challenge. GTF is "Assault doctrine, advance, advance, advance and now charge" it requires no brainpower and complex strategy. What were they expecting? A detachment so broken than no one was going to run GTF ever again?
I appreciate how this detachment encourages thematic play but realistically this doesnt really offer up any reason to not just use gladius. Not because Gladius is so good but because there really isnt anything particularly strong about it
Look. I won a 2 day event with Inner Circle detachment. I won a 2 day event with unforgiven detachment. I attempted Ravenwing hunt but that shit was NOT cooking. I am gonna give this detachment a good red hot fucking go
The big problem with ravenwing units is that they are made out of tissue paper and either dont wanna get into melee as they dont have any or hit like a wet fart. Its a very fluffy detachment which is very nice and all but it would be nicer if the dark angels had an actually good detachment as all 4 suck
@@jazeroliversy673yeah but then we’re paying a 60 point tax just to turn on our detachment rules. Which (much like the ICTF) can then be turned off if certain units get taken out.
I'm normally one of the biggest 40k doomers but this is good. They should have been doing this kind of stuff all throughout 10th. This is the kind of cool rules updates to add new detachements is what people want. Not bi-weekly rules changes because mr pee pee poo poo at the highest percentile of ranked play broke something so now we all suffer.
Continuing the dark angels tradition of ignoring their own primarch in their own detachment. He doesnt get the deathwing or ravenwing keyword so 3/4 detachments dont do anything for him
I dunno I have always done very well with Unforgiven Taskforce - I admit I dont go to tournament - but even against meta lists it always does solid for me ?
This is actually a pretty big one it seems. It makes ravenwing genuinely usable and puts a lot of creative and fun threats for people to have to consider for a list with a lot of vehichles and terminators
You know I do wonder that now that the Lion is around if perhaps we’ll end up seeing them bring back older “Wings” of the dark angels where back before the Hersey, there was 6 of them like the espionage centric Firewing or the Dreadwing/destroyer squads.
I rebuilt my 4th/6th edition DW army with old terminators, bought the Christmas box, and I have plenty of Indomitus biker sprues in a box somewhere so I might give this a whirl.
8:55 You cannot use AoC on one of those units, but if the target enemy unit is attacking multiple targets, then only one of those targets cannot get AoC. For example, if you have a Ravenwing and a Deathwing unit, and the big bad threat that you are attacking split attacks (for example, because your ravenwing unit is almost dead), then you can use this strategy, both units get the -1 to hit -1 to wound AND you can use AoC one of the two units (which is the limit on how many times you can use AoC anyway). In the example that I said with the ravenwing unit almost dead, you would use this strat on them, and AoC on the Deathwing unit.
If anything, if just the threat of you being able to use this combo is enough for the enemy to take a suboptimal attack and not kill the ravenwing unit, that is already a win and for free.
We are not going to know the true strength of this detachment until we see the balance data sheet...On the flip side, it gives me a reason to kitbash some Ravenwing Knights
You're right since ouriders look bad in comparison whit the old kit, gonna touch some iron here but I hope that they do not get the sanguinary guard treatment
Except you can win a dime with this. Sure I didn't play it of course but the power level is very low if you compare this with Stormlance. It has to be very fun in order to play this over Gladius or Stormlance.
@@mathiasschulze6148 Not everything is about winning all the time. This looks fun, and encourages people to look at black knights more (which are a slept on and cool unit)
@@DrakonPhD well...just play Stormlance. It's a great detachment for the black knights. Ravenwing Command Squad with 3 Black knights, super tanky with ride hard ride fast and you can resurrect bikes with the apothecary. Can even advance shoot and charge for 1CP. Stormlance is such a great detachment for Ravenwing and Deathwing...
Seems like an interesting detachment. I'm much more of Deathwing guy, so I naturally prefer the Deathwing-focused detachment, but I do like the idea of adding some Ravenwing units to help enhance their combat ability and to zip around to get objectives. I'd love to test it out.
I wish they'd let Sammael attach to Assaults w/ Jump packs and Inceptors like how other units can with other DA heroes to gain keywords. He would get more use simply by adding Ravenwing to other units.
I was discussing with a Friend of mine, who plays DA: i think is super cool: opponents would be super scared of engaging/get engaged by Ravenwing dudes, when they know Deathwing can support them with Deep Strike, Heroic intervention and Rapid ingress too.... Also worth of noting is, IMHO: Captain in Terminatour Armor leadng Deathwing knight looks very hot here: Charge Reroll built in + discountet stratagems for the unit, seem very sinergic
As someone who plays DAngel successors and went in big on Ravenwing, this tempts me. Though it's been ages since I played, I'd have to relearn a whole buncha stuff...
How crazy would it be if the Aeldari got a detachment that's focused around "wraith" units; makes guards/blades into battleline, a new NAMED wraithlord, etc
It's *so* situational. I could see it working with Terminators deep striking and charging in after Ravenwing bikes are already in, but man...that's rough
illuminating fire could be interestign with a block of Ravenwing Dark shroud and 2 Ballistus or Redemptors. Plus 1 to wound and stealth for 2 tanky units. seem like a nicbt brik for the midfield.
This is a good detachment. If you already play, Raven, wing! But particularly with the correct bikes and a lack of other assault vehicles in the line I would invest in it. This is for that tournament player who just has 500 bikes and watch the cheese a battle or at least try. Here’s an idea bring back the old terminator RV from yesteryear.
Love the ideas, a Deathwing Ravenwing joint task force. With the Jump Pack nerfs I've been running black knights instead which has actually been pretty decent and was already going into that theme and ill probably be running this detachment now, maybe. But I really wish plasma was more highlighted for DAs as Plasma specialist, I want to bring Hellblasters so bad, they are some of my favorite models for sure but they don't feel worth the squeeze for me between the point cost and dying by their own hands which doesn't feel cool. Idk if this is a terrible idea but perhaps for DAs the first failed hazard roll is passed automatically (once per turn, maybe per unit??)
LEGENDS UNITS ARE STILL USABLE. Seriously, they're not melted into plastic, in 99% of games they'd still be usable. And anyway, its far more likely that GW will just release new Black knight and biker units for DA in 11th.
@@DrakonPhD They are not. Your opponent needs to agree and in 99% of your games you won't find someone willing to check a PDF and deal with a potentially broken unit that needs multiple houserules to even work with the current version of the game. With friends sure, but not every game at your local store will be against your friend
i'm thinking about calabanite armaments on a techmarine (3 damage base weapon, 4 damage can opener arms is scary) OR the truly scary option, 3 damage precision devestating wounds fights first judiciar.
Strength in unity should come up more often than you would normaly expect in this detatchment. Everytime, you try to get the +2 charge on your terminators, you will have deathwing and ravenwing units in the same fight for one round at least.
There is a fluff in there for some casual games, not gonna lie, but for competetive scene is too much situational, so Dark Green Ultrasmurfs on Gladius still in the play
I hope this is how GW handles all releases for all detachments going forward into 11th. No single army missing out for a whole edition, everyone just gets one every 6 months or so
It’s seeming the detachments are taking a more fluff style with these detachments with the death guard one being a shambling infantry hoard style and this being a synergy of the two specialist wings of the dark angels which is pretty cool Also I think some people are underselling how big of a problem forcing a desperate escape test actually is
Those attempts will not occur a lot though as most raven wing bikes aren't really made to stand up to heavy infantry and they already rip through lighter infantry like butter. It will come in handy sometimes, ain't really a reliable factor though.
@@hal3667You charge a shooting unit that can't hit back, you all but force it to stay in melee for a turn or risk taking some damage. But that's super situational and requires you to play carefully so you don't get overwatched. BA have an enhancement that gives that and nobody takes it
The weapon enhancement seems incredibly underpowered compared to other similar enhancements, but other than that, it looks pretty interesting. It definitely has some weaknesses though... mostly that it's a deep strike reliant detachment that gives no bonuses to help things deep strike through screening attempts like other deep strike detachments do. It'll certainly be a lot of fun in casual play where you can have a Deathwing Command Squad and get +3" to your charge, but it's gonna be really rough making this detachment work when your opponent can screen you out of most of what you want to do and you don't really have a counter to it.
hows the design with 4 dark angels detachments and basically the only thing the lion works with is armour of contempt and in unforgiven task force his oc is reduced from 4-1 instead of 4-0 if he battleshocks. pretty much every strat and 3/4 detach abilities are keyword locked and for some reason he doesnt even have inner circle keyword. I'd like the DA specific detachments to have the lion in mind for some level of synergy please.
I think what would be a cool thing for Tyranids is something that fits Hive Fleet Jormungandr; the fleet that forms nests within the crust of worlds. Jorm is my favorite fleet so I'd like to see it represented. A good detachment rule would be the Grey Knights Army Rule/Necrons: Hypercrypt Legion rule, but maybe with a stipulation that Trygons, Mawlocs, Raveners, and Rippers either don't count towards the limit or receive an additional buff when they do this. Bringing melee warriors straight to the frontline would be terrifying. That's not mentioning dropping OOE with two Carnifexes, the Swarmlord with his Malign Presence rule, either of the Norn units, a Maleceptor, our a Haruspex. Hell, really any melee/short range shooting unit works. Three enhancements could be: 1) +1 to charges/reroll charges for the model and its unit. 2) Back in 5th edition Hive Tyrants could get these Infestation weapons that lived inside them and could shoot out as a flamer attack. They were called Desiccator Larvae, Electroshock Grubs, and Shreddershard beetles (you could choose one). Give something like that where it adds a multi-profile ranged weapon profile to a Hive Tyrant or gives them an ability to do MW to things near them. 3) The ability to give automatic cover to Tyranids within a certain range (or within Synapse range). It would represent the creature controlling the terrain by manipulating tiny Tyranid lifeforms within it. I don't know about stratagems, but having one that allows a 3" deep strike would be perfect for dropping a Maleceptor aura and getting enemies in Synapse range for Shadows of the Warp.
Hmm...its not bad. Speaking as a DA player it would be nicer to plug some gaps in the lists. Like how there are no lance weapons for units like Ravenwing Black Knights. Guess I'll be keeping the Company of Hunters detachment for my Ravenwing.
I love the flavor, it was pretty odd to have your army be essentially locked to either ravenwing or deathwing with the other detachments. Whether or not the rules are good in practice is something we will have to see.
is this a good detatchment to take the Lion himself in? I have been experimenting with him and a full six man Inner Circle as a precision anti monster or character bomb (son plays Chaos and Tyranids, loves his Carnifexes and Deamon), and I like the idea of an Outrider+Melta ATV+Chaplain on Bike squad pinning them down.
Wonder if Ravenwing will get some of their minis refreshed. I'm not sure if buying e.g. 3 sets of Bike Knights + Dark Shroud now is a good option if this gets replaced next year or so.
I wont be so sure considering the best kit they ever made for dark angels (DWC) is gone along with put unique deathwing terminators (keeping a plas cannon is nothing compared to what our unique rules we lost)
Correction for the uppy-downy enhancement: it's just return to strategic reserves, no "then return to the battlefield next turn" so no 1st turn deep strike potential.
This is pretty cool, but I'm on a small playerbase that would love a tri wing version. Why ignore the Greenwing. Yes, it's just generic space marines, but I would love some synergy between all 3 wings
It sounds like you need firstborn bikes to get the most out of it. I don't own any, and those kits have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. I'd say this is not quite dead on arrival. Good if you've got a full collection.
@@starcommander7589 I'm aware of how they look, and they're not to everyone's tastes. And that's fine. Always go rule of cool, if you don't like the models, don't play them.
Chronically Online 40k players when GW gives an completely free extra detachment that is good and fun, but *isn’t* so OP broken it shoots the faction to a 70% winrate: GW hates me personally 😢
Initial impression is gladius is stronger… this one will have a hell of alot of fanagling to make it work right… frankly its possible it gets good if the raven wing points drop… and i mean like alot… outside of that i just don’t think it works well enough. Shame…
i think this has a lot more play than people think right now. desperate escape test rerolls, lets ypu pretty much ignore screening units and dwk with a cpt can charge the chosen target almost always with the reroll and +2. knights of iron can garantee secondaries, which is important in the late game. illuminating fire makes hellblaster with azzy, redemptors and repulsors actually anti tank. the charge in your opponents turn is amazing and absolutly game winning, killing stuff of obkectives, important charges you missed or tagging big damage monsters/vehicles is all great and imo worth 2cp since youll have azzy in the army. lets not even talk about uppy/downy dwk, thats just disgusting if the balance dataslate gives some discounts to rw units, then i can see some high level players having fun with this. in casual play this is amazing
The viability of the detachment will depend on the dataslate. If the Ravenwing units are buffed it could be a very strong, very competitve detachment. If they stay as they are it will be a weak and casual detachment because half of the rules depend on Ravenwing units getting into melee and right now sending a Ravenwing unit into melee is a suicidal move even with a max size Black Knight squad
Full Grotmas Detachment Playlist here - th-cam.com/video/h0sEEOfH_cY/w-d-xo.html
I admit I don’t play DA but shouldn’t their Primarch get all “-wing” keywords? Or at least Death Wing? I assume he’s in on all the Inner Circle secrets in the lore by now…
yeah it’s odd that he doesn’t have them and it makes it really hard to be competitive with the lion in a list
In Horus Heresy he can switch between wings at the start of every turn, it would be cool to have something similar in 40k
@ yeah see that makes fucking sense he’s the primarch it makes no sense to me why he doesn’t have the the wing keywords
even if he did it wouldnt change anything because he still has MONSTER and all the DA strats are locked to INFANTRY
@@JCMiniPainting Not the new ones
Games Workshop: "WE ARE GOING TO OVERWHELM THE FAN-O-SPHERE WITH A CONSTANT STREAM OF HIGH-DETAIL CONTENT! EVERY DAY, A DETACHMENT! THEY'LL NEVER KEEP UP!"
Auspex Tactics: "Oh? You're approaching me?!"
Really wish they released a greenwing plasma-focused detachment tbh
Would make a lot of sense
We all did
Woomp woomp, see you in two years when DA get a codex for 11th
@CatroiOz why do you gotta be that guy
@@annegerber1259 they probably had a bad day at work and no one gave a crap
It's not the best detachement rule, but I like the idea. The ravenwing have to catch and lock the enemy in place then the deathwing come finish the job.
Agreed. Nice idea at the core of it, to bring back 1st & 2nd JTF.
B+ for concept, C- for execution.
I feel like some people are underselling how much of a problem desperate escape can be seeing how it forces you to take one if they try to run which could be potentially brutal especially against more gun-lined focused armies
I like the flavour of it
@@karlwes6273 even when you have toll to make them battle shocked and make the desesperare espace way more deadly
@ exactly there’s so much you can do with the detachment granted probably not as versatile as Gladius it’s still awesome in my opinion
Honestly, it sounds like how the DAs were always supposed to fight back in the day when I got into them. We'll see if people can make it work but I certainly appreciate how fluffy it is )
Exactly. Probably not the best option, but exactly what i want my DAs to be.
As a nids player I hope they give us a shooty nids style detachment, they could call it Bio barrage
So far they're 1 decent detachment (DG)
1 poopoo detachment (DA)
Let's see how our bugs fair tomorrow.
@@EliteDarkAssassin it’s not even that bad you just wanted advance and charge, your underselling how much value the detachment can give in the right hands
Crossing my fingers for ”Star children” detachement, synergizing nids and GSC via the great devourer keyword
@@karlwes6273 all the people who listen to metahead YT channels and never play the game just believe what they're told.
@ honestly I was a bit suprised we never did get something like that or at least vice versa as gsc aren’t strangers for using soup stuff
Being used to secrets, They were given the role to keep the greatest secret in the galaxy safe, Santa's location
Probably imprisoned in the Rock, being interrogated for millennia knowing them...
He’s on Fenris, leading the SW
OMFG the watchers in the dark are Santa elves confirmed.
@@auspextactics We have heard you see all saint nicolas... So tell us what you know of THE FALLEN!
Ability to teleport all across terra in a single night ignoring all security… that’s some warp shenanigans that’s is!! Burn the heretic!!
I feel like people are forgetting what all exactly falls under the deathwing and ravenwing family tree now, it’s no longer just terminators and bikes.
Stormspeeders I’ve seen do some good work from the back, which works great with illuminating fire. Ravenwing knights are cheap enough IMO, and don’t sleep on the command squad.
Deathwing has a whole slew of stuff now. All veteran units (sterngaurd, bladeguard, etc), any unit azrael is attached to will get the keyword (so hellblasters being +1 to wound against the illuminated target 👀), inner circle companions have it, and probably most slept on all DREADNOUGHTS have it. +2 to charge for a brutalis dread, +1 to wound for redemptor dreads, charging in your opponents’ turn with any manner or dread or Judiciar lead companions/bladegaurd, there is some teeth to this detachment. It just needs more brainpower and planning, and I think that’s what people might be turned off by given some armies rules are powerfully simple and can easily combust your plans. But honestly I think it’s a good detachment overall, especially in the hands of a skilled son of the Lion.
Even stormraven gunship going through walls dropping dreadnaughts and termies t1 is wild
@@josedelvalle-km2oystorm raven 350p in next patch confirmed
It's just more of the same. If they had given Deathwing the desperate escape rule we could've been getting somewhere. DA are plauged by missing or bad rules with keywords.
Like I think others have mentioned... I'd be a lot more enthused if there were more options for Ravenwing... and it wasnt likely that most of their current models will get legends / upgraded come next edition...
Ah yes, the “how do we sell overstock of outriders and the remaining stock of Black Knights?” detachment.
Exactly what I was thinking earlier 😂
Yep. Exactly. I started 40K with dark angels, and seeing how GW has treated em has made me despise them as a company. They don’t want their game to be fun and for every model purchase to feel like a good investment to the buyer. They only care about profits and use their game rules to manipulate purchases of product they want sold that perhaps isn’t selling well.
@@joshuachapman59 Yep it's a FOMO, live service, model based game. Not worth our time.
I like this one, really feels like it should've been in their supplement but at least it's here now. I don't quite know why people are regarding the Ravenwing charge as a 'suicide charge' when you're doing it to get Deathwing Knights or Assault Terminators in to clean up the enemy unit before they hit back. (Not to mention that Ravenwing unit could even just be a cheap Invader) It's going to be interesting to see in the hands of skilled players, because besides Deep Strikes there's the possibility of some big Terminator charges out of Land Raiders which might well then also be picking up +1 to Wound with their own shooting. Armies that like to get close to shoot like Sisters in Firestorm or Tau will also need to respect that counter-charge, which could be especially embarrassing for a unit that just moved within 6" for melta range. It's also potentially really bad news for Aquilons or anyone else pulling a 3" Deep Strike trick and expecting to get some shots off.
nice explained, how things could work, but just calculate, how many APs necessary, you are talking about: just rough calculation. Landraider, 270, 5 knights with char 320, and one ravenwing unit (if not just crap ... so maybe command and 3 ravenwing knights) 220 .. so without any better chars, weapon etc... easyly 850 AP, if you want maybe 2 chars with the knights we are talking about 1000 Ap ... so half of the army ... and having only one RW unit and one DW unit and a landraider. So you fill up with a 5 cheap Termis, and maybe 2 other cheap rw units... another 400. Which makes 600 AP left for shoting, grabing and defending objecitves, grabing VP, chars, bodys, scouting moveblocking etc ... the idea is nice, but I thing it is way to expensive to rely on it. It might be a nice bonus ... from time to time ... but gladius still will be always a much better choice in my eyes ... and with gladius, u always can pick the best units available...
It’s obtusely expensive to pull off, and until we know how they plan to dissuade players from using GTF or Ironstorm, those are strictly better for a list involving the same units.
Dark Angels continue to pay for the sins of the weapons of the dark age stratagem, heaven forbid games workshop do anything with their plasma niche ever again.
We continue to pay for inner circle from 9th edition 😔 that 1-3 always fails on the wound roll was Too Annoying so now we must spend this edition in competitive oblivion
Well look at the bright side, it isn't deathwatch and you are stuck with bolters...
Looks at the bright side. At least you have a codex unlike White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guards, Iron Hands, etc. I doubt any “codex compliant” chapter not named Ultramarine will get anything. Well, I least I have my Eldar. They seem to be eating good lately. 😃
I miss the Inner Circle rule of 9th.
@@mk-ultraviolence1760 true, deathwatch have already been put on the sacrificial alter at gw hq for that one mortal wound bomb at the start of 10th
We've got talons of the emperor at home, the detachement...
Hugs copy of Principia Belicosa ‘Empy wrote it for us not you banana boy!’
quoting Auspex Tactics conclusio: "Seems better than the core Unforgiven Task Force detachment to me though?" ... no more words needed to describe the strengh of the new datachment to DA Players.
They should have given atleast advance and charge to Ravenwing models for free. Without that, they are not fast enough to always assist the Deathwing part.
Sammael does that
@@chrisgregory3063 That's quite expensive for a throwaway squad that just suicide charge enemies to tag them for deathwing.
Ravenwing are plenty fast though. Especially since you're not deep striking Deathwing in until T2 so even to keep up with the Deep Strike you should get about 20"-30" to play with.
The move thru walls strat will make a big difference
There's a strat/enh for that
It boggles the mind that the Lion doesn't get both the Ravenwing and Deathwing keywords. If he did, he would function in all three themed detachments
@@Khobainormally I'd agree but he's literally the Primarch, if any unit should be able to be used in any chapter specific detachment it should be that chapter's Primarch.
They'd still have to swap MONSTER for INFANTRY otherwise he'd still be locked out of most of their strats
@Halo003qd is the Lion on a bike or vehicle?
@@JCMiniPainting they wouldn't have to swap anything, they can just add 'primarch' as a targetable keyword lol
Lion has all 6 wing keywords in Horus heresy table top, it baffles me he still doesn’t even have deathwing as a keyword
When LION el jonhson doesnt get any buffs in the LIONs blade detachment
The name existed since at least 7th edition, so it makes sense. Its a nice callback.
@DrakonPhD I agree, but still, our primarch needs at least one keyword to work with those strats or both of needed. Perhaps the balance dataslate will add those keywords.
@@DrakonPhDhe doesnt mean it has to be dedicated to The Lion, but the fact that he receives no benefit from the Detachment rule whatsoever is absurd. He should be able to be both Wings in the army or switch between them like in HH
Its funny how the lion has more synergies in the core codex detachments by having the adeptus astartes keyword, but no synergies with its own chapter
It fits since he still doesn’t have the Lions Blade ? Cypher’s big sword ?
It took a few minutes after reading it to realise the variety of units available now! don't forget STORM RAVENS in hover can now move through terrain with the new strat dropping off dreadnoughts and termis with a nice 20in move!!
I played a couple of games with this at 1K and it is probably the best Dark Angel detachment by far, Belial is a good choice for this Detachment overall, I am not playing competitive so I ran him with a Deathwing Command Squad and he is a menace in the field, thanks to the Champion they get 3 inch bonus to the charge if a Ravenwing unit is already in the melee, he can massacre enemy characters thanks to his Precision on Crit Hits as well as him having Precision on his melee and the Champion's Halberd also having Precision, overall really fun detachment.
This detachment seems super cool. I would be very excited to run it in a game, if I had any more than 3 whole outriders!
An interesting loophole in the Strength in Unity stratagem restriction of not pairing with AoC. You cannot target the same unit to trigger both but given the detachment incentivizes engaging with both ravenwing and deathwing units at the same time, you could choose one of the units to trigger Strength in Unity and the other to be targeted with AoC for additional protection assuming the enemy has targeted at least one attack against each unit. And since both trigger after the opponent has assigned their attacks you can make sure that the AoC is on the unit getting focused or just cause them to disperse their attacks more than they would really want to.
Glad GW finally added the whole turkey for Christmas instead of just the 'wings and the greens. Seemed like a no-brainer but glad it's an official detachment now
Feels like we could have green wings detachment that have Hellblaster as battleline unit
Great idea
dear emperor that would be maddening.
Don't get me wrong Greenwing's "I laugh at battleshock" detachment fails the sniff test because battleshock still lacks weight, but if battleshock was relevant I'd actually call it good.
Plasma battleline though just feels like asking for another nerf bat.
Hellblasters with Azrael get +1 to Wound in this detachment. That's good enough for me.
This feels like a decent detachment. Battleshock strat not being locked to your turn is big and will just be hilarious when someone casually drops 2 tests on a led unit with Asmodai.
Be a lot more interesting if they gave The Lion the Deathwing and Ravenwing keywords 🤔
The exact power is hard to judge, but I like the theme aspect of it. I'll give it a shot.
Cryhards: NOooooOooOo00 don't tRy iT aS itS tRaSh
Keep us posted. It looks like there's some strong play to it. 7" DS charges and numerous desperate escapes are never something to be scoffed at.
@@dalecherrier3930 I'm baffled by the whining and complaining in the comments to be honest. If they said they think it's probably worse than gladius, I'd most likely agree, it probably is, Gladius is after all an absolutely amazing detachment. But claiming there is nothing of interest here is absurd.
It requires more setup than gladius, sure, but that's hardly a challenge. GTF is "Assault doctrine, advance, advance, advance and now charge" it requires no brainpower and complex strategy.
What were they expecting? A detachment so broken than no one was going to run GTF ever again?
Ravenwing: get in dummy we’re gonna charge…
I was really hoping for a plasma based detachment but alas
I appreciate how this detachment encourages thematic play but realistically this doesnt really offer up any reason to not just use gladius. Not because Gladius is so good but because there really isnt anything particularly strong about it
Look. I won a 2 day event with Inner Circle detachment. I won a 2 day event with unforgiven detachment.
I attempted Ravenwing hunt but that shit was NOT cooking.
I am gonna give this detachment a good red hot fucking go
As someone who is just getting into to dark angels on tabletop I like the army as I plan for my bigger lists to have a mix of death and ravenwing.
The big problem with ravenwing units is that they are made out of tissue paper and either dont wanna get into melee as they dont have any or hit like a wet fart. Its a very fluffy detachment which is very nice and all but it would be nicer if the dark angels had an actually good detachment as all 4 suck
Probably just use the ATV as chaff and as a stratagem activator. Cheap, and does the job.
@@jazeroliversy673yeah but then we’re paying a 60 point tax just to turn on our detachment rules. Which (much like the ICTF) can then be turned off if certain units get taken out.
Yeah, why would anyone want to fall back from raven wing? DA is stuck with the dumbest rules, battle shock resistant and anti fall back 🤦♂️
I'm normally one of the biggest 40k doomers but this is good. They should have been doing this kind of stuff all throughout 10th. This is the kind of cool rules updates to add new detachements is what people want. Not bi-weekly rules changes because mr pee pee poo poo at the highest percentile of ranked play broke something so now we all suffer.
Wise words from the Senate
Continuing the tradition of all Dark Angels detachments being hot garbage
Honestly it's getting impressive at this point
Continuing the dark angels tradition of ignoring their own primarch in their own detachment. He doesnt get the deathwing or ravenwing keyword so 3/4 detachments dont do anything for him
I dunno I have always done very well with Unforgiven Taskforce - I admit I dont go to tournament - but even against meta lists it always does solid for me ?
A shockingly poor detachment.
Ahahahaha. That's a very good detachment
This is actually a pretty big one it seems. It makes ravenwing genuinely usable and puts a lot of creative and fun threats for people to have to consider for a list with a lot of vehichles and terminators
You know I do wonder that now that the Lion is around if perhaps we’ll end up seeing them bring back older “Wings” of the dark angels where back before the Hersey, there was 6 of them like the espionage centric Firewing or the Dreadwing/destroyer squads.
I thought the same thing, I would love to see some new firewing inspired units, maybe in phobos armor or just some jump pack models
A pactbound zealots detachment with the wings instead for Dark Angels would go hard and be actually cool and fun to play with
@@frogsterlicous7040
Blood Angels players: "if we've had our wings taken away, you lot don't get them!!"
Very nice of GW to give Auspex his Christmas gifts early by giving him busy all of December
I rebuilt my 4th/6th edition DW army with old terminators, bought the Christmas box, and I have plenty of Indomitus biker sprues in a box somewhere so I might give this a whirl.
8:55
You cannot use AoC on one of those units, but if the target enemy unit is attacking multiple targets, then only one of those targets cannot get AoC.
For example, if you have a Ravenwing and a Deathwing unit, and the big bad threat that you are attacking split attacks (for example, because your ravenwing unit is almost dead), then you can use this strategy, both units get the -1 to hit -1 to wound AND you can use AoC one of the two units (which is the limit on how many times you can use AoC anyway). In the example that I said with the ravenwing unit almost dead, you would use this strat on them, and AoC on the Deathwing unit.
If anything, if just the threat of you being able to use this combo is enough for the enemy to take a suboptimal attack and not kill the ravenwing unit, that is already a win and for free.
We are not going to know the true strength of this detachment until we see the balance data sheet...On the flip side, it gives me a reason to kitbash some Ravenwing Knights
You're right since ouriders look bad in comparison whit the old kit, gonna touch some iron here but I hope that they do not get the sanguinary guard treatment
hey guess what
they're on the same bases as Vertus Praetors
Very fluffy detachments do far. I like this trend.
Except you can win a dime with this. Sure I didn't play it of course but the power level is very low if you compare this with Stormlance. It has to be very fun in order to play this over Gladius or Stormlance.
@@mathiasschulze6148 Not everything is about winning all the time. This looks fun, and encourages people to look at black knights more (which are a slept on and cool unit)
@@DrakonPhD well...just play Stormlance. It's a great detachment for the black knights. Ravenwing Command Squad with 3 Black knights, super tanky with ride hard ride fast and you can resurrect bikes with the apothecary. Can even advance shoot and charge for 1CP. Stormlance is such a great detachment for Ravenwing and Deathwing...
@@DrakonPhDwe need at least one detachment that is plasma this ain’t it.
Seems like an interesting detachment. I'm much more of Deathwing guy, so I naturally prefer the Deathwing-focused detachment, but I do like the idea of adding some Ravenwing units to help enhance their combat ability and to zip around to get objectives. I'd love to test it out.
They did a good job on that detachment. It sounds very fun to play!
I wish they'd let Sammael attach to Assaults w/ Jump packs and Inceptors like how other units can with other DA heroes to gain keywords. He would get more use simply by adding Ravenwing to other units.
I was discussing with a Friend of mine, who plays DA: i think is super cool: opponents would be super scared of engaging/get engaged by Ravenwing dudes, when they know Deathwing can support them with Deep Strike, Heroic intervention and Rapid ingress too....
Also worth of noting is, IMHO: Captain in Terminatour Armor leadng Deathwing knight looks very hot here: Charge Reroll built in + discountet stratagems for the unit, seem very sinergic
As someone who plays DAngel successors and went in big on Ravenwing, this tempts me. Though it's been ages since I played, I'd have to relearn a whole buncha stuff...
not exactly what i was hoping for, but i'll definitely try it out from time to time.
How crazy would it be if the Aeldari got a detachment that's focused around "wraith" units; makes guards/blades into battleline, a new NAMED wraithlord, etc
It's *so* situational. I could see it working with Terminators deep striking and charging in after Ravenwing bikes are already in, but man...that's rough
Setting up for a deadly turn 2 isn't exactly a tough game to play
Tempted to have ICC + Judiciar and Calabanite Armament. Along with DWK and a T Cpt to guarantee charges with the +2 in the detachment rule.
illuminating fire could be interestign with a block of Ravenwing Dark shroud and 2 Ballistus or Redemptors. Plus 1 to wound and stealth for 2 tanky units. seem like a nicbt brik for the midfield.
This is a good detachment. If you already play, Raven, wing! But particularly with the correct bikes and a lack of other assault vehicles in the line I would invest in it. This is for that tournament player who just has 500 bikes and watch the cheese a battle or at least try. Here’s an idea bring back the old terminator RV from yesteryear.
Love the ideas, a Deathwing Ravenwing joint task force. With the Jump Pack nerfs I've been running black knights instead which has actually been pretty decent and was already going into that theme and ill probably be running this detachment now, maybe. But I really wish plasma was more highlighted for DAs as Plasma specialist, I want to bring Hellblasters so bad, they are some of my favorite models for sure but they don't feel worth the squeeze for me between the point cost and dying by their own hands which doesn't feel cool. Idk if this is a terrible idea but perhaps for DAs the first failed hazard roll is passed automatically (once per turn, maybe per unit??)
Looking forward to the new detachment that the Custodes, Guard, and Codex Astartes are getting for Grotmus.
I am tempted to try this, except I only have 1 group of bikers for Ravenwing. May try it once I have enough Ravenwing to try
Oh, gotta sell those bikes before they get squatted into legends.......
LEGENDS UNITS ARE STILL USABLE. Seriously, they're not melted into plastic, in 99% of games they'd still be usable. And anyway, its far more likely that GW will just release new Black knight and biker units for DA in 11th.
@@DrakonPhD They are not. Your opponent needs to agree and in 99% of your games you won't find someone willing to check a PDF and deal with a potentially broken unit that needs multiple houserules to even work with the current version of the game. With friends sure, but not every game at your local store will be against your friend
@@wakito64in what world do you live if you can t find peopel that agree to legend ? i never meet anyone who refused to play against my legend units
@@wakito64 If the opponent disagrees, they are not a worthy opponent.
i'm thinking about calabanite armaments on a techmarine (3 damage base weapon, 4 damage can opener arms is scary) OR the truly scary option, 3 damage precision devestating wounds fights first judiciar.
Strength in unity should come up more often than you would normaly expect in this detatchment.
Everytime, you try to get the +2 charge on your terminators, you will have deathwing and ravenwing units in the same fight for one round at least.
Even if Gladius may be a better detachment, I’m still going to try and make this work and I have some fantastic ideas.
There is a fluff in there for some casual games, not gonna lie, but for competetive scene is too much situational, so Dark Green Ultrasmurfs on Gladius still in the play
Brother we have found the elusive fallen angel Cyper bearer of the Lion’s own blade, the Lion Blade; quickly deploy the lion’s blade task force!
I hope this is how GW handles all releases for all detachments going forward into 11th. No single army missing out for a whole edition, everyone just gets one every 6 months or so
Seems like it could be pretty decent tbf.
If I have to wait the whole month of December for a shite custodes detachment, I'm gonna be pissed.
It’s seeming the detachments are taking a more fluff style with these detachments with the death guard one being a shambling infantry hoard style and this being a synergy of the two specialist wings of the dark angels which is pretty cool
Also I think some people are underselling how big of a problem forcing a desperate escape test actually is
Those attempts will not occur a lot though as most raven wing bikes aren't really made to stand up to heavy infantry and they already rip through lighter infantry like butter. It will come in handy sometimes, ain't really a reliable factor though.
@@hal3667You charge a shooting unit that can't hit back, you all but force it to stay in melee for a turn or risk taking some damage. But that's super situational and requires you to play carefully so you don't get overwatched. BA have an enhancement that gives that and nobody takes it
The weapon enhancement seems incredibly underpowered compared to other similar enhancements, but other than that, it looks pretty interesting. It definitely has some weaknesses though... mostly that it's a deep strike reliant detachment that gives no bonuses to help things deep strike through screening attempts like other deep strike detachments do. It'll certainly be a lot of fun in casual play where you can have a Deathwing Command Squad and get +3" to your charge, but it's gonna be really rough making this detachment work when your opponent can screen you out of most of what you want to do and you don't really have a counter to it.
My sons play DG, DA, and my younger just started a Nids army. I play CSM and Eldar. Sooooo no Grotmas for me yet. Lol
Good, that way you can space out the spending.
hows the design with 4 dark angels detachments and basically the only thing the lion works with is armour of contempt and in unforgiven task force his oc is reduced from 4-1 instead of 4-0 if he battleshocks. pretty much every strat and 3/4 detach abilities are keyword locked and for some reason he doesnt even have inner circle keyword. I'd like the DA specific detachments to have the lion in mind for some level of synergy please.
3 very probable charges for 3 dwk with captains
This sounds familiar. *Looks at a Ravenwing Knight being dragged into a dumpster with SoS.*
First thing I thought to myself when I saw this was, "Need Auspex to tell me if this is any good or not".
I think what would be a cool thing for Tyranids is something that fits Hive Fleet Jormungandr; the fleet that forms nests within the crust of worlds. Jorm is my favorite fleet so I'd like to see it represented.
A good detachment rule would be the Grey Knights Army Rule/Necrons: Hypercrypt Legion rule, but maybe with a stipulation that Trygons, Mawlocs, Raveners, and Rippers either don't count towards the limit or receive an additional buff when they do this. Bringing melee warriors straight to the frontline would be terrifying. That's not mentioning dropping OOE with two Carnifexes, the Swarmlord with his Malign Presence rule, either of the Norn units, a Maleceptor, our a Haruspex. Hell, really any melee/short range shooting unit works.
Three enhancements could be:
1) +1 to charges/reroll charges for the model and its unit.
2) Back in 5th edition Hive Tyrants could get these Infestation weapons that lived inside them and could shoot out as a flamer attack. They were called Desiccator Larvae, Electroshock Grubs, and Shreddershard beetles (you could choose one). Give something like that where it adds a multi-profile ranged weapon profile to a Hive Tyrant or gives them an ability to do MW to things near them.
3) The ability to give automatic cover to Tyranids within a certain range (or within Synapse range). It would represent the creature controlling the terrain by manipulating tiny Tyranid lifeforms within it.
I don't know about stratagems, but having one that allows a 3" deep strike would be perfect for dropping a Maleceptor aura and getting enemies in Synapse range for Shadows of the Warp.
Hmm...its not bad. Speaking as a DA player it would be nicer to plug some gaps in the lists. Like how there are no lance weapons for units like Ravenwing Black Knights. Guess I'll be keeping the Company of Hunters detachment for my Ravenwing.
this detatchment seems fun. i look forward to trying it with my ultramarines.
lol
@@matthewheather6911 they've been stealing our detatchment all edition after all
Top comment
I love the flavor, it was pretty odd to have your army be essentially locked to either ravenwing or deathwing with the other detachments. Whether or not the rules are good in practice is something we will have to see.
is this a good detatchment to take the Lion himself in? I have been experimenting with him and a full six man Inner Circle as a precision anti monster or character bomb (son plays Chaos and Tyranids, loves his Carnifexes and Deamon), and I like the idea of an Outrider+Melta ATV+Chaplain on Bike squad pinning them down.
The Lion gets 0 buff from the detachment, if you want to play him competitively just use GTF
good vid as always
Thanks for the video
I really hope Tyranids have a proper Kronos shooting detachment.
Storm raven is ravenwing and has hover and can go through the walls.
Wonder if Ravenwing will get some of their minis refreshed. I'm not sure if buying e.g. 3 sets of Bike Knights + Dark Shroud now is a good option if this gets replaced next year or so.
I mean it was destiny that inner circle would be the one detachment that is functional.
Wow they gave us a detachment worse than Unforgiven… why? Gladius it is I guess
I fear they are trying to make people buy ravenwing to raise sales and then send those units into legends
100%
They won’t send them into legends, they’ll just update them into primaris size.
I wont be so sure considering the best kit they ever made for dark angels (DWC) is gone along with put unique deathwing terminators (keeping a plas cannon is nothing compared to what our unique rules we lost)
lmao get off your tin foil hat
Correction for the uppy-downy enhancement: it's just return to strategic reserves, no "then return to the battlefield next turn" so no 1st turn deep strike potential.
This is pretty cool, but I'm on a small playerbase that would love a tri wing version. Why ignore the Greenwing. Yes, it's just generic space marines, but I would love some synergy between all 3 wings
Wish they'd just release them all together with the data slate.
Not really a fan of Ravenwings so this detachment does nothing for me lmao
That's the most respectable and based naysaying reason we'll ever see.
I see GW is still desperately trying to make battle shock a good rule
Imagine trying to explain what Grotmas is to medieval person.
It sounds like you need firstborn bikes to get the most out of it. I don't own any, and those kits have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. I'd say this is not quite dead on arrival. Good if you've got a full collection.
Outrider bikes get the ravenwing keyword
@@karlwes6273 And outriders are probably better suited as expendable chargers too. With a chaplain they might even hurt something.
@@dalemallon2924 You are forgetting something the outriders look like hot garbage like a box with wheels and a dude sat on it
@@starcommander7589 I'm aware of how they look, and they're not to everyone's tastes. And that's fine. Always go rule of cool, if you don't like the models, don't play them.
@@dalemallon2924 🗿
Chronically Online 40k players when GW gives an completely free extra detachment that is good and fun, but *isn’t* so OP broken it shoots the faction to a 70% winrate: GW hates me personally 😢
Wow...
Data slate should change unforgiven to make hellblasters battleline. Said what I said :)
Love that the lion can’t benefit from the detachment rule in the lion’s blade detachment
I am a little sad we are not doing indexes first because those armies have so few options. Why not release them earlier?
Initial impression is gladius is stronger… this one will have a hell of alot of fanagling to make it work right… frankly its possible it gets good if the raven wing points drop… and i mean like alot… outside of that i just don’t think it works well enough. Shame…
i think this has a lot more play than people think right now.
desperate escape test rerolls, lets ypu pretty much ignore screening units and dwk with a cpt can charge the chosen target almost always with the reroll and +2.
knights of iron can garantee secondaries, which is important in the late game.
illuminating fire makes hellblaster with azzy, redemptors and repulsors actually anti tank.
the charge in your opponents turn is amazing and absolutly game winning, killing stuff of obkectives, important charges you missed or tagging big damage monsters/vehicles is all great and imo worth 2cp since youll have azzy in the army.
lets not even talk about uppy/downy dwk, thats just disgusting
if the balance dataslate gives some discounts to rw units, then i can see some high level players having fun with this.
in casual play this is amazing
The viability of the detachment will depend on the dataslate. If the Ravenwing units are buffed it could be a very strong, very competitve detachment. If they stay as they are it will be a weak and casual detachment because half of the rules depend on Ravenwing units getting into melee and right now sending a Ravenwing unit into melee is a suicidal move even with a max size Black Knight squad