Panasonic Lumix S1H 5.9K RAW review (S1H / Ninja V beta firmware)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ค. 2020
- I tried out 5.9k RAW video on the Lumix S1H and Ninja V (beta). ProRes RAW approx 300 Gbyte/s.
S1H and Ninja V kit at B&H: bhpho.to/2TuEx4I // WEX: tidd.ly/f2a53ad0
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I tried out the 5.9k RAW video of the Lumix S1H and Ninja V (beta). ProRes RAW approx 300 Gbyte per second.
S1H and Ninja V kit at B&H: bhpho.to/2TuEx4I // WEX: tidd.ly/f2a53ad0
Buy Gordon a coffee: www.paypal.me/cameralabs
Gordon's In Camera book: amzn.to/2n61PfI / Amazon uk: amzn.to/2mBqRVZ
Cameralabs merchandise: redbubble.com/people/cameralabs/shop
Nice job, Gordon. Good news for V-Log users who can expose properly. 👍
I know it wasn't the main point of the video, but I learned so much about how these different formats impact the recorded data. Very informative.
You're very welcome!
the raw video has an issue: lens corrections have to be done on-top. You can see how the distortion changes in RAW vs. Log quite dramatically.
Interesting and revealing comparison of 10bit V-Log vs 12bit Raw ... So the Log profiles do have a real usefulness.
Definitely - log can give you some amazing latitude.
Gordon, based on these tests, the internal V-Log seems like the winner. It offers pretty much all the DR that the RAW delivers, does not require an external recorder, and automatically corrects the lens distortion. You didn't mention it, but I believe V-Log files are smaller than the ProRes RAW files, so easier to manage as well...
Great to see you again Gordon. I just couldn't help but notice the sort of not fully seated HDMI. I hate this connection personally but a necessary evil. I would love SDI instead when connecting to the external recorder. Just me I guess. I have been curious about the RAW for the S1H. Thanks for your post Gordon.
21:18 yes I enjoy this. Quality gear in expert hands is always a pleasure to behold.
Thanks!
It's crazy to think that no one need a 50k camera to produce good quality movies in 2020. With tight budgets and good talent, anything is possible!
Exactly - this gear is relatively cheap for higher-end productions.
Yes, such a pleasing image! If I ever decide to move to full frame for filmmaking then the S1H, a Ninja V and either a suite of vintage Nikon F or Olympus OM lenses or renting a gorgeous set of Leica M0.8 for big projects would be my ideal setup. Small, light and high quality.
finally I get it, that hole thing of vlog... thank!!!!
Thanks for this video and all its detail!
You're welcome!
Nice! Thank you!
To me personally the fact that one can output over hdmi while recording 5.9k is more valuable at the moment and I would love to see the raw output working with bm raw and their video assists... hope for more jobs to come soon to justify a S1H purchase... Funny to see no lens corrections in the raw footage btw
I'm not sure if the S1H crops a little when filming 16:9 4k vs C4k, so the minor coverage variation may be as much to do with that as lens corrections. But yes, the RAW was not corrected in this respect.
Enjoyed your comparison Gordon. Being a GH5 & GH5s owner, I like the look of the S1H picture quality, but holding out in this lockdown for a new job. :) Take care.
Thanks! It's a pretty neat camera. Hope you get some gigs soon.
Thanx Gordon. :)
thanks for sharing!..informative,great!..
There is no such a thing as "highlight recovery". We either clipped or saturated a photosite on the sensor or we did not. In raw, the condition of the photosite or sampling of each pixel well is what is important. If a photosite is saturated, nothing on planet Earth can recover it. Remember, user selectable gain/ISO is recorded along with the raw sensor collection as metadata. Gian/ISO WILL burn and clip in-camera processed video recordings. You will blast your highlights on video and then go back to your raw and think you recovered them but they were never clipped at the sensor level to begin with. When you clip them at the senor photosite level...THAT...is when they are "really" clipped. Raw sensor data is always saved at "0db" gain. If you have a dual gain/ISO camera that has a
"low 0db" and a "high 0db", then your raw sensor data is recorded at whichever stage you are using. The rest of your +3,+6,+9db is only saved as metadata flags for the raw assembly playback to apply for you to watch. Yes, those settings are all reversible in post. You can move them all back to "0db" if you feel like it....because "0db" is always the starting for raw playback display. (with your metadata flags applied)
I understand that, but I was demonstrating the concept of compressing or shifting the viewable tones to give what most would describe as recovering the highlight detail.
@@cameralabs - My comments were not pointed at you, they are more for the viewers so they understand what raw sensor data a little better. You did a great job with this video! Any word yet on when this will be implemented?
More please!😉🙏🏾
Thanks!
Hello Gordon, How do I get the atomos to stop baking in color into my video. I selected Native VLOG but it records in color.
I think RAW will bring, more than colour or exposure latitude, no artifacts in scenes with lots of action. The colour/exposure seems close to LOG, but in cine settings they will profit from no artifacts during such scenes.
prores raw is 300 gb per second ? please compare panasonic s1h vs sigma fp in video raw (low light, detil, high light recovery ) thanks
and I have also heard from TH-cam(The DP Journey) that bit depth doesn't increase DR. More bit depth = more gradual change in color or basically more shades of a color. That's why I always wonder that A7iii has 14+ stops of DR despite having only 8 bit video.
Yes, imagine the total range that a camera can capture from light to dark, then cut it into steps. The more bits, the finer the steps, which helps avoid banding when you stretch them out a lot. As for the A7 III, the 14 bit quote is for stills, although shooting video in s-log can give you a lot of range to play with.
Great review! Thanks! May I have some question ?
1) to record ProresRaw, is it relaying on NinjaV's FW version 2.0 and S1H's latest FW? Are these FW Published already ? or not yet?
2) Do I have to use Ninja SSD Atomos X to record RAW ? or I can also use my Samsung 860 pro SSD ?
my gear are also S1H+NinjaV+Samsung 860 pro, when I switch to ProresRaw recording mode, the "recording button" on my ninjaV is not available. :(
Yes, you'll need the updated firmware for both the Ninja and the Lumix - the Lumix update for RAW is still not publicly available. Atomos recommend certain high speed drives, but I used an Angelbird Atom X with no problems.
Is there a timecode solution for the Ninja V? When you use audio timecode software like Tentacle sync studio doesn't support the prores raw file format to read the timecode imbedded in the audio channel. Thanks
So if I am using strictly VLog and wanting to make similar adjustments should I still setup a HDR library in final cut?
the camera is only v-log, but there is also - WDR (Wide Dynamic Range) ?
The non-raw codecs don’t necessarily have less dynamic range. That’s one of the great myths of raw, that it has more dynamic range. The sensor has a finite range and that’s the ultimate limiting factor. Panasonic can fit that range into a codec like H.264 or H.265 if they want to. Thats basically what they do with VLog, moving the highlights and shadows towards middle gray.
My wording was ambiguous. What I meant was the greater bit depth of RAW allows finer gradations in the tonal range, which in turn lets you stretch more before you see banding. But the bottom line here is v-log seemed to contain pretty much the same information in my own test clips.
Gordon Laing I think 10 bit is probably good enough at this point. The difference between 10 and 12 bit color is probably more significant on paper than in actuality.
Y E S !
Thanks!
16:12 still in beta, so hopefully full wb adjustment can be added later!
I really hope so, but I'm almost certain it won't be offered in the final firmware in its first form. Apple needs to do some updates before Pan-atomos can adopt it.
8 bit v log and 10bit and raw it will be nice to see
Is this footage straight out of camera? Because it seems like there is a lens distortion effect added to the ProRes Raw recording. Most noticeable at 18:55 , the columns are bent. And the V-Log internal version doesn't have that. I don't mind it because you can apply this effect in post and it looks generally better. The field of view of ProRes Raw looks wider but distorted.
The RAW footage doesn't have lens corrections applied - another thing to consider.
@@cameralabs aaaahhh okay, thanks
Looks better without :)
then, still waiting for sony a7s mark 3 ? how about 12 bit Raw video of sigma fp, did you ever compare to panasonic video raw 12 bit ?
FYI, with regard to your white balance test, your result has nothing to do with Atomos. It has to do with ProRes RAW- as of now, that codec does not give the user full control of WB after shooting like R3D files do. It's a current limitation that might be fixed in the future but has nothing to do with the Ninja, the camera or FCPX.
Exactly, it's Apple's decision.
Sorry, novice question what’s the difference/relationship between 30p and 24fps - or is the p in 30p just short for 30fps?
Exactly right, P is the same as frames per second in this instance. Advanced tip: P stands for progressive, which means each frame contains all the lines, versus I for interlaced where each frame only shows every other line to save bandwidth. Most content is P nowadays.
On the other hand, I was looking at the atoms page, some specifications, and I saw that apparently, with angelbird's 500gb ssd hard drive ( atom x ), it can't be recorded in 12 bit, or it hasn't been tested. But it also says that in 10 bit it can't either, or hasn't been tested. What I can say, is that I record in 10 bit, without problems with that hard disk, so it works. Now I'm not sure if it can be recorded with that hard disk in 12 bit or not. And what I find most strange of all, is that atomos, do not have the certainty of whether it works or not. as it is possible that it has not tested to see if it works, or not to specify if it is not tested, or that it does not work. That at least. Here is the link, let's see what you think, capable and interpreted something wrong and you can tell me what you read there: www.atomos.com/drives
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Well, now that Premiere Pro takes ProRes RAW I guess I'll upgrade my Nikon Z6 to do ProRes RAW. Looks pretty dang cool.
You should definitely try it, although be aware that the implementation of RAW on the Z-6 is also different.
Many videographers don't consider ProRess RAW as actual RAW as WB and ISO are baked in and can't be changed in post. The DP Journey explained the benefits and drawbacks of ProRess RAW.
When is the GH6 coming out bdw? :P
I watched his videos too and as I explain in the video, there's no WB adjustment... yet.
so for a hybrid shooter r5 for s1h?
more!
I clicked, I started watching.
I noticed no comments.
I refreshed... still no comments.
Space time fracture discovered.
This is a pretty specialist video that had only been live for five minutes when you commented, so I wouldn't be expecting many yet! Thanks for watching though!
@@cameralabs you're too modest...
I wish the Ninja V didn't have those massive bezels 😞
It's impressive, but 300GB/s? Wow. But, we have 10 bit w lens correction.
My lenses have arrived, but my S1H is still on back order.
I hope it arrives soon!
Your project is set to Wide gamut HDR, but you aren’t grading on a HDR display (13” MacBook Pro). You are basically making Rec709 grading decisions from a color space converted HDR image. You should set you project to SDR instead. You don’t need a HDR project to grade raw footage.
But you do need a wide gamut HDR library enabled for Final Cut to process the adjustments with the full range available. If you set the library to SDR, you lose the benefit of the broader range. But if your output is SDR, then you have the library set to wide and the project set to REC 709. By the way, these aren't my recommendations, they come directly from Panasonic and Atomos regarding RAW workflow on this combination and they know more than I do about their gear and implementation. Plus, I could also have a wide gamut monitor connected to my MacBook - in fact you can use the Ninja V for that.
Gordon Laing I don’t know enough about Final Cut to comment about what mode it needs to be in. I’ve been working in Resolve for a few years now. It allows for independent control over input, timeline, and output color space. It’s a very capable NLE.
Most Macs are unable to output HDR. Native HDR support was only added with a recent Mojave’s update and it’s unclear whether the HDMI output on Macs can support HDMI 2.0. Even if they do, it’s a mystery how Apple’s ColorSync system would affect the HDR output. I bypass all internal color management by using a Blackmagic Decklink card.
Gordon Laing If you edit raw footage in FCP in a non wide gamut project, what does it do to the footage? Does it clip information outside the color space? Does it apply an arbitrary color space transform?
@@musicelect I think BlackMagic does a solution for Macs connected to HDR displays too...
Is ProRes raw 5.9K data rate about 400MB/s?
Hmmm, I meant to say in the video, but it must have been in an earlier clip I didn't use - bah! My ProRes RAW clips worked out at about 1 Gigabyte for three seconds.
Strange that files are so large. That's 13MB per frame and 20GB per minute and 1.200 MB (1TB & 200MB) per hour. That's really a lot. Are you sure? On Prores Raw white paper they talk about having similar bitrate as normal Prores.... Thanks
@@enricoparenti3057 @@enricoparenti3057 I think apple is talking about 4K ProRes raw not 6K... Yes 300-400MB/s it's awful amount of data. Not practical for longer documentaries IMO. No serious WB and no ISO adjustments.
@@enricoparenti3057 remember there are different levels of ProRes. I think they were referring to it being similar to 444 but with 'benefits of RAW'.
@@cameralabs they were talking about normal Prores photos.app.goo.gl/EHwqaRs5BsTsrLJq8
I think ML software to canon was so good why new cameras dont match same things, old canon cameras can internar record raw video.
Ah magic lantern...
@@cameralabs why gordon ?
Before I bought my s1h, I thought about it a lot, because I come from sony, and panasonic really hasn't resolved to make a self approach really worth using. But I thought, ok, in the future they'll release a new firmewere that can do it well, for sure, but it's ok I thought, in any case, I'll sacrifice this point and focus manually. Then I finally decided to buy it, because I'm writing the script for a movie, and I thought it would be great to have raw, with all that implies, like modifying the white balance, the iso, without losing quality. I was about to buy the black magic 6k, but I finally chose the s1h, but now I'm sorry. Because I'm seeing, what panasonic, is playing with us, it doesn't tell us the whole truth, and that makes me lose more confidence in them every day. And for sure, they knew that these things were not going to work, and the fact that 1 day before they said that they were not going to launch it, I'm sure it is and was, a marketing strategy, to boost sales these days. I would tell panasonic, to be very careful what you do, and if you promise raw, to give us real raw, because not a video file that doesn't have a flexibility in changing the white balance and ISO control, is not raw at all, at all. In order for something to be raw, it has to have the same things that raw files have always had, and the cameras that shoot raw. The thing about cheating people, with the release date, and saying something is raw, and it's not really raw, is going to be that everyone will get mad at panasonic and never buy that brand again. Watch out, panasonic, we're not stupid. Please, do your job well, that's why we paid 4000 thousand dollars in the s1h and 1000 dollars with the ninja v atoms and their accessories to have nothing. That's why we bought the black magic 6k, and we got a lot more for a lot less. Serious please panasonic!
I was also frustrated about white balance, but that's apparently Apple's call with ProRes RAW. In theory the format might support it, but Apple need to work with the hardware companies to make it all possible. I would hope that this is resolved in the future.
Not sure what all the white balance in raw is about. After all....raw sensor data is nothing more then three separate RGGB filtered GREY scale channels. True raw sensor data...has NO color in it. The color is assigned on playback. Its assigned and "mixed" in Premiere or in another NLE there and THEN white balance is applied. Raw has no white balance because it has no color inside it.BlackMagic raw "can" have white balance because those guys FLATTEN and mix their colors in-camera and save it to file that way. ProResRAW does not. All three channels stay seperate.
Sixth comment, I guess?
also, how to pronounce your surname?
Lay - ng
Liar, overexposions and shadow details is for DR, not for the Bit Depth ,differing RAW and MP4