You can easily make your own a-b conversion cable. Just get two plugs and a stereo cable then wire tip from one plug to ring on the other and vice versa, sleeve is ground on both.
Some day, audiences and musicians will be nostalgic for the noise induced by that and by unshielded usb cables. 20 years from now, it will be built into boutique pedals.
What gets me is the number of so-called MIDI Controllers that *don't even have MIDI ports* anymore. Just USB. So you can't control a MIDI device without some weird host box or by going via a laptop.
The same company that sells the RK006 also sells TRS to TRS cables which flip the A and B line. (Not to be confused to the TRS to big DIN adapters). The flip adapters are very small since they have TRS on both sides. So I bought a whooooooole bunch of them, 10 at once. And whenever my connection doesn’t work I add one of these (or remove it if it already was on the cable). and the cool thing you don’t have to think about if your device is B and the cable is coming from an A source or tif he device is A and the cable is coming from a B source, the flip adapter works in all scenarios, and it also doesn’t matter on what end you prepend or append the adapter. By having a whooooole bunch of them I also prevent myself from having to search them or running out of them. Ever since I did do this purchase I went from hating TRS midi to absolutely loving it, because it always works, it doesn’t take up desk space and it doesn’t require computers or hosting.
I mentioned that in the video! I didn't end up getting them because it seemed like it would only work one way, but of course the logic you've described there is completely correct. I should have gotten one... Maybe I will.
@@StephenMcLeod He must have fallen asleep at that bit. Just kidding! A really interesting watch. At first I wondered what the gripes were going to be about then found myself swearing as much as you when you highlighted the ridiculous type A/B situation. I have a CME Widi jack that has a handy A/B switch. It's nice some manufacturers are actually thinking about users.
@@StephenMcLeod totally understandable that one can overlook the “works both ways nature” of these adapters. And yes, you should definitely get one or some, because you really might end up liking the TRS connectors, you already mentioned so many plus sides in the video.
Thanks for the mentions Stephen - too bad TRS-B was already out in the wild indeed but the moment the MIDI standard was set to A we just went for it on all our own devices - and because of this standard we could make the RK006 do more than just MIDI on it's TRS outputs 😬
The TRS-X is genius btw. I love them! On the RK-006, the MIDI to gate functionality is awesome in particular (I'm going to talk about that in an upcoming video), but if it was possible to change the channel/note config for that it would be even more awesome.
@@StephenMcLeod yeah, notes are fixed but the channel can be changed by the settings page. We used a shared midi control channel for midi2gate stuff, also used for the polymux setting and clock shift/divider CCs for example
@@RetrokitsDev Gotcha, thanks! I'd love to split it up so I could change the channel per gate... but that's quite a particular use case I'd imagine. Thanks for the reply!
@@StephenMcLeod for really particularirinimities there's the RK002 which you can use as a RK006 midi FX bus as well - it can reroute channels / events to trigger ports or whatever, I can whip you up a RK002/DUY for that.
The important problem is that the MIDI bus is isolated with optocouplers to prevent noise or ground issues. But devices with TRS MIDI don't always have optocouplers. Typically devices with TRS MIDI will also have USB power and they usually don't isolate that, either. So everybody has awesome MIDI devices with great audio quality except who cares because it's got constant interference. The only way you can fix that is getting either an expensive isolated industrial USB hub or a super sketchy USB isolator dongle which will probably die quickly because the device is drawing more power than it can handle (usually about 200 mA). It's not something most people will notice unless you're plugging your USB-powered synth into the same power brick as something else. Then it's crazy how noisy some things get. Guitar pedals have used TRS MIDI (and even TS MIDI) for much longer, and the companies that make guitar pedals seem to not have any of these problems. Even Roland does a better job when they're putting the Boss name on things LOL.
100% agree ... especially if you are new to the scene and were told "oh yea MIDI is the standard how equipment talks to each other" .. ummm what?? THEN you go buy what you THINK is the right TRS to DIN adapter off of amazon but if the vendor did not also show a pick of the wiring diagram you get the wrong thing. ugh.
Yes! I love being able to plug my OG DX7 Mk1 into modern stuff like my Arturia KeyStep Pro. The DX7 came out the year MIDI did. I love that MIDI has remained backwards compatible.
@@jennoscura2381 And I love being able to plug my Oxi One TRS into my Keystep Pro DIN. The Arturia is great, but it's MIDI CC is harder to program. Having two separate sequencers let's you offset the weaknesses of both.
I just recently purchased a Morningstar MIDI Box to make these connections more convenient. You do have to know whether your device is TRS type A or B to set the individual port jumpers but once that’s done you’re good to go. Another good option for 1/4” (6.35mm) TRS MIDI is the Strymon Conduit.
The best (but janky) solution I have found is using TRS to RCA cables and swapping the stereo channels when going A to B. I don’t know why there was no agreement on this until recently.
Midi 2.0 is on its way, and is USB-C connector to USB-C connector, it will solve a bunch of problems while creating some new ones. especially for those of us who occasionally circuit bend stuff. I recently watched a talk on it at a tech conference, software support is well on its way for alot of embedded operating systems then we will probably start to see more devices.
@@rorz999 Operating systems now have drivers, which means that DAW's are now working on support and various manufacturers are starting to release controllers with support for it, so stuff is now actually working and i'd expect it to properly start showing up in the next 2-5 years. Alot of hardware has a 2-5 year development cycle and i'd expect that where it actually makes sense new hardware thats now in early stages of development would probably be targeting using it. Where as stuff that will be released in the next year or two thats been under development for a while may not. Smaller manufacturers will probably still wait a little longer though.
You make good points but this is always an emotive subject . However I think most of us work round to find solutions but as you rightly state - why should we . Great content and delivery as ever 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Totally with you on this, I actually like the trs format (saves space, more variety in cables, cheaper cables) but the lack of labelling is a massive mistake.
I can't believe MIDI 2.0 isn't a wireless system with affordable dongle plugs baked in. It reminds me of Henry Ford saying “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
One kind out of the Force, and another into the FM2, I'm about to have masking tape on everything just like Da, the adoption has been an insane process
@@StephenMcLeod at least it's placed when I won't smack it off flush at surface like on the smaller ones, with the Force I found myself wishing I had more USB synths, def not the line of thought I wanted to be on
One major concern is what the screen of an input jack is connected to. Is it insulated from the chassis and not connected to 0V of the circuitry? On a DIN connector the shell is not connected to the cable screen and pin 2 is not connected at the MIDI In end. On a jack plug the cable screen will be connected to a metal jack bushing and even with a plastic one there is no guarantee that the jack contact is not connected and this will defeat the opto isolation.
I think we can point the finger at one or two influential manufactrers (ahemturia) for jumping the gun before the MIDI assoc decided on the standard. It's not bad in itself, with a lot of gear being smaller it makes sense.
To be fair, I think the MIDI association were painfully slow to adopt a standard... stifling innovation, and ultimately they are just a collection of companies anyway - so it's their own fault!!
The solution is super simple. You don’t need a DIN adapter. You just need a trs to male RCA splitter and a TRS to female RCA splitter. Plug them in to each other and you have a TRS MIDI cable. If the connection doesn’t work just swap the male and female connections : from red-to-red and white-to-white to red-to-white for both connections. It’s fast, simple and about as elegant as it can be.
Yet another dope video! As a dabbler in the hobby I appreciate the help understanding how we got into this mess. One question, when did the mini-jack enter the scene? You mentioned 2018 standard adoption but when did the game start? Roughly start of course:)
I totally agree, one exception trs midi in an analog the things two exceptions and that’s breath control… which just a personal piece of electronic paraphilia for me in modular, like mpe cv control would be for people who’ve done this, the other though is the new 6mod6 module and daw automation…. It generally takes a lot for me to care about gears but it is a wicked out of the box thought.
One of my favorite things about my MPC One, is I have an 8 port USB Hub, and all of a sudden I can plug a large number of midi devices in and everything just works, but yeah there are plenty of other places where USB Midi isn't good enough or useful.
TRS MIDI would have been my favorite type of MIDI with it's small form factor pretty common connector, if there wasn't that confusion with the two sub-types (A & B) that you explain very well. Notice a mini-jack polarity inverter is just enough but yes it remains painful. How cool it would have been if eveything worked with just a standard of TRS (let's say A) ? We would just re-use our good old mini jack-cables. Otherwise, I personally use CME WIDI which works well for small setups, and RK-06 with Retrokits' orange DIN to A/B adapters. CME is also working on a pretty promising hybrid WIDI/MIDI/USB DIN hub.
I love TRS MIDI. I've been working on tabletop setup that fits inside a pedalboard and I need all the space I can get. TRS with angled cables means I can put devices very close together (if the MIDI port is on top then it doesn't really matter if it's DIN). I use a TRS MIDI hub that has switches for each output between type A and B.
@@0Fdigital Interesting. I know my akai force doesn't supply power on its 3.5 trs midi connection, will need to check out more that I have. Thanks for the info!
It can be welcoming if the devices using type-a. I have the nerdeq expander connected to a bitbox by a single trs cable. The Pam expander, stolperbeats, and sp404mk2 all use type a and its been great not having to use dongles, and thick midi cables
dude, this video saved me! I have a faderfox I never used and finally tried to setup and it wasn't working. pulling my hair out. your video and tried a different cable and voila!
THANKS! More Millennials should realize this. (Gen X exists! having used samplers with magnetic discs!) There are so many reasons for DIN MIDI! and still ways to expand it with 2.0 It's a more solid connector for stage use, it has the Opto Isolators that you could easily take for granted... untill you hear the NOIIIISE from USB
Optoisolators aren't exclusive to DIN ports. It's part of the circuit and definitely possible to include if the connector is TRS. It's also part of the MIDI standard, no matter which port is being used, so manufacturers should be following it.
Shootin by a window these days? They allow you out of the synth cave? Nice one, fella! Natural lighting is looking good. Midi frustrates me. CV makes more sense to my brain. I also appreciate Elta Music's take on midi: "Why do you need a midi? You haven't played it yet, but you already need a midi. It's a self-contained instrument with its own keyboard. Plus it has enough CV - Gate inputs and outputs to connect external sources, including midi keyboards, most of which already have CV Gate outputs. I sincerely don't understand what Midi is for in such an instrument. To send sequences ?"
A: "There are at least 3 different competing standards" B: "Let's make a new standard, combining the best of all three!" Result: There are now at least 4 different competing standards.
While most musical instruments have standard and robust Din midi sockets, it can be quite irritating to have to connect certain gear via TRS adapters. The TRS sockets are relatively flimsy and have very thin cables and the socket or plug can easily be damaged if a cable is tugged or someone trips over the cable
I eat gatekeepers for breakfast! 😆And yes.. DIN is KING! I feel you on this, such a pain. I have the correct midi adapters practically glued to my NTS-1 and Volca FM II lol 🐀
I love usb midi… and rtp-midi(Ethernet)… I have the mioXL, usually connected to Force… thekikgen mod adds rtp-midi to mpc… all my computers, akai stuff, iPads can control my synths from a single connection each via a dedicated midi network.
I'd definitely prefer to have good old DIN, but if it's a choice between minijacks or only having USB then I'm glad to have the jacks. Making them extra extra mini like the otherwise great Uno did is annoying, though. As is different companies having different versions, thereby necessitating dongles for your dongles (or making your own cables like I did.
It would be nice if A was just the standard going forward and devices going forward were required to have a software or hardware setting. If there was a circuit that could do auto sensing with a chip you could just buy and easily integrate that would be nice.
Decoupling from excessive complexity… even in eurorack was insane in the beginning…. It’s definitely not like disagreements like what we all waded through to get here❤( I’m remembering wars over u height in Doepfers early days when there was no eurorack agreement yet…) so even if it’s a storm in a teacup it points at other problems standardization has ups and downs as well. ❤
I prefer minijack over DIN and route all my midi through the RK-006, but I get the frustration between A and B. It's easy enough to rewire an aux cable though and keep a few on hand when the situation comes up.
@@StephenMcLeod I can do it, but I'm incapable of doing it neatly. Being able to do something is not the same as wanting to though, or being likely to getting around to doing it.
@@StephenMcLeod Yes, many possibilities - too many. I think the simplest way for a non-solderer, or reluctant solderer, is the TRS to RCA solution. You have to get a bunch of different ones, some with RCA plugs, some with RCA sockets, then decide how many permutations of TRS plug and socket you want, or just stick with one solution. Plugs last a lot longer than sockets but if you have plugs at both ends, you need the right lengths, or buy some TRS extensions. Some adapters and extensions have really bad sockets - really loose and poor connections, which is an argument for sticking with plugs on your adapters, maybe, then find a good source of extensions.
I like DIN MIDI. I love that I can plug my Arturia KeyStep Pro to my DX7 which originally came out in 1983, the yesr MIDI was introduced. Mini jack means I need a Mini plug to DIN adapter. And with the thpe A and B issue, it's even worse. I currently don't have any mini jack MIDI items. I am not sure if I want to get any. I love that Behringer uses DIN on their clones. It makes things much easier to integrate into my setup. In my setup I have a KeyStep Pro connected to two 6 way MIDI through boxes. I had my DX7 plugged into the MIDI in on the KSP. But for some reason it's not working right. One of the through boxes is connected to the MIDI in on a second KSP that I use with my Eurorack. My first KSP is connected to my computer. So I can hit record in the DAW and both KSPs fire up. Anyone have idea why my DX7 doesn't work right as a master keyboard plugged into my KSP? It works fine plugged directly into another synth. If I could get that working right I could use my DX7 to play my modular by running the MIDI through one KSP, into the other KSP, and out through CV and gate. My best guess is latency issues using the KSP as a MIDI router. I am tempted to get one of those Kenton 25 way through boxes. Then I could run the KSP and DX7 i to it with my MIDI merger. Hopefully I will figure something out. I really like the key bed on my DX7. So I really want to be able to use it as a master keyboard.
I don't own a KeyStep Pro and didn't even know they had MIDI in but you can always try MIDI-OX or similar to route from one USB MIDI connection to another. It's in the Options menu, under MIDI Devices.
I love TRS midi, my rules to enjoying midi life are, if its usb only, it serves no purpose to me, and if it's midi type-B I wont even consider it. The worst midi of all though is cursed guitar pedal midi.
ok stephen, already had done two out of the three things you said not to do so here's the third one: well said. it's fine. manufacturers should definitely stop with the non-standard stuff, and certainly not marking it as non-standard is a type of negligence. one of the nice things about the moog m32 is its din midi in. but it's in the wrong place, if all you have is the standard straight din connector
I love the RetroKits hub and their sequencer too so mini jack forms the heart of set-up, so I'm a fan 'cos it's so dead easy to get everything working. Never trust USB anything!
The Retrokits RK006 is great. Got that one too and I thoroughly enjoy it. I use TRS-TRS and TRS-DIN midi cables where applicable and I’m not fussed. But 10 midi outputs and two midi inputs (not including the USB bidirectional port) with all kinds of ways to route and filter in a tiny footprint is perfect for me. I also appreciate the easy TRS-TRS cables to connect my OXY ONE. And the occasional usage of TRS-B, well, I resoldered new 3,5 mm plugs to a long TRS-TRS cable that I halved and got two type B cables in my kit. Just mark it with a colored tiewrap to mark it (I used green for type B) and you always know it’s the type B. So no, I really don’t mind the TRS standard. But let’s get our knickers in a knot about all those pesky audio connectors! 1/4 or 1/8 inch, TR, TRS, TRRS, Balanced, Unbalanced, Cinch, XLR… I mean… when I started out I was bamboozled by all that… And let’s not talk about those 9V psu’s with center pin negative for most fx pedals, except when they are center pin positive and the risk you blow up you pedal (happened to my Eventide H9 Max and it blew up a diode that I luckily was able to replace, who needs reverse polarity protection on an expensive pedal? 😮)… So yeah people are people, always building towers of Babel to make an easy buck. Which shareholder wants standards if it costs them? 😢 Ahwell… All good, cheers man!
Resonates with me, the midi trs a and b etc. TRS to TRS MIDI leads just look like the CV patch cables. aaaargh. 😅 wait a minute…? Are they the same thing? Lol
I recently got an elektron model cycles and even tho it's supposed to automatically detect whether it's trs-a or TRS-B coming in, I can't get any midi at all except over usb, and given that I'm not using usb for my other devices (if I was I'd have to have some massive dongle dangling off my computer) it bothers me to no end. Each usb midi device seems to introduce its own inscrutable amount of latency and each mini jack midi device requires a silly amount of adapters and I have to keep track of which one is sending what on tip and ring. I have enough wires to deal with without that nonsense
I don’t think it automatically detects, I think there’s an option to select A or B type. But it’s a while since I had mine. There may also be an option to select usb midi or 8 pin midi.
Interesting. I have a cycles and have so much trouble with usb midi and noise. The trs works, but the din adapters are so delicate, one broke within a couple of months and have had to replace them.
Amen to this. At least it has the option to select between the two though. I believe it might detect incoming MIDI, but output has to be selected? I've never actually used one though.
@@StephenMcLeod yup. I've gone through the whole troubleshooting wagon of solutions. It is bisexual on the way in and a switch on the out. I believe the actual jack is broken. This isn't as hard to believe as you think. When I bought my circuit OG, it fell off the table as I was playing it with headphones. Ever since, that jack only plays out of one ear. All it takes is a particularly raucous session and those little jacks get murdered by the groove
I hate that I gotta use a TRS-to-TS breakout and a TS-to-TRS female with a TRS cable to swap between type A & B. Especially when I wanna use My Polyend Tracker with my 404MK2. Look how goofy that sentence was to read 😂. And also thats like 3-4 adapters. Wtf lol
Just got a Volca today, it's great except for that big honkin' DIN connecter sticking out of the front panel and getting in the way. Have to say that's the only thing I don't like about it so far.
Are we talking about some brands who don't provide USB MIDI Class compliance (or even audio class compliance) and require proprietary drivers for USB MIDI ? 😉 Even more frustrating than all this TRS debacle.
Ok I think TRS aint too bad, given it has more flex than stock 5 pin din, it is easier to plumb in the rear rather than what I have to do, which is build around the stupid larger sized cables. I shit you not, I have had to make custom wooden racks to be able to lift over the 5 pin din, or aside, in this case I think TRS is better for my use.
Ohh the amount of time I spend trying out a crate full of TRS/midi converters on these ports is really awkward and a dent in any workflow. they should really start labeling MIDI A or MIDI B including the cables. It's hilarious to think that back in the 80s they all agreed on one universal format what worked perfectly fine for the last 40 years. And now since the last 5 years or so they just decided to flush that down the drain for god knows what reason.
I'll take it over USB "MIDI" because at least with minijack I can control other synths. Fuck USB MIDI, fuck USB's host-client system, Firewire should've won. I shouldn't need to pay 80 to 200 dollars for a box to make a cheapo folding amazon keyboard talk to a cheapo Volca. My girlfriend is working on a DIY solution for this and I hope it works.
Anyone who calls a synth they dont like a "toy" is usually pretty toxic. You see it a lot. I personally love 1/8th midi jacks, but i dont really care whether it's 5 pin din or 1/8th socket, as long as it has midi in and/or out :) My big dislike is for USB midi. I absolutely refuse to buy another hunk of plastic just to make it so some small synth that skimped on jacks can get used by my midi controller. I had to pass that 50 dollar behringer thing, even though I love the form factor, for the same reason. Only had USB midi out. Unusable for my purposes!
i think i actually did run into the TRS A/B issue, i didnt realize that was even a thing, I thought maybe I was just too new (it was a year into my synth journey), but I do now remember at one point having to use a type A and type B adapter with a normal midi cable in the middle.
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*What do you think? Is TRS MIDI rubbish? What other gadgets/solutions have I missed?*
You left out Type-C 🙃
You can easily make your own a-b conversion cable. Just get two plugs and a stereo cable then wire tip from one plug to ring on the other and vice versa, sleeve is ground on both.
@@RickardYxelflod 'easily' you say. You've not seen my soldering.
@@StephenMcLeod Oh, I’m far from an expert too haha
No need to solder, just twist and tape. You'll put it together wrong anyway, so that makes it easier to put right.
I'm saving my rage for the ubiquity of USB for power and the endless ground loops that it causes.
This. So much this.
Some day, audiences and musicians will be nostalgic for the noise induced by that and by unshielded usb cables. 20 years from now, it will be built into boutique pedals.
I love my Dreadbox synths but jeez! The cable they sell which is supposed to alleviate this seems to be even noisier too lol
What gets me is the number of so-called MIDI Controllers that *don't even have MIDI ports* anymore. Just USB. So you can't control a MIDI device without some weird host box or by going via a laptop.
100%
The same company that sells the RK006 also sells TRS to TRS cables which flip the A and B line. (Not to be confused to the TRS to big DIN adapters). The flip adapters are very small since they have TRS on both sides. So I bought a whooooooole bunch of them, 10 at once. And whenever my connection doesn’t work I add one of these (or remove it if it already was on the cable). and the cool thing you don’t have to think about if your device is B and the cable is coming from an A source or tif he device is A and the cable is coming from a B source, the flip adapter works in all scenarios, and it also doesn’t matter on what end you prepend or append the adapter. By having a whooooole bunch of them I also prevent myself from having to search them or running out of them. Ever since I did do this purchase I went from hating TRS midi to absolutely loving it, because it always works, it doesn’t take up desk space and it doesn’t require computers or hosting.
I mentioned that in the video! I didn't end up getting them because it seemed like it would only work one way, but of course the logic you've described there is completely correct. I should have gotten one... Maybe I will.
@@StephenMcLeod He must have fallen asleep at that bit. Just kidding! A really interesting watch. At first I wondered what the gripes were going to be about then found myself swearing as much as you when you highlighted the ridiculous type A/B situation. I have a CME Widi jack that has a handy A/B switch. It's nice some manufacturers are actually thinking about users.
@@StephenMcLeod totally understandable that one can overlook the “works both ways nature” of these adapters. And yes, you should definitely get one or some, because you really might end up liking the TRS connectors, you already mentioned so many plus sides in the video.
Thanks for the mentions Stephen - too bad TRS-B was already out in the wild indeed but the moment the MIDI standard was set to A we just went for it on all our own devices - and because of this standard we could make the RK006 do more than just MIDI on it's TRS outputs 😬
The TRS-X is genius btw. I love them! On the RK-006, the MIDI to gate functionality is awesome in particular (I'm going to talk about that in an upcoming video), but if it was possible to change the channel/note config for that it would be even more awesome.
@@StephenMcLeod yeah, notes are fixed but the channel can be changed by the settings page. We used a shared midi control channel for midi2gate stuff, also used for the polymux setting and clock shift/divider CCs for example
@@RetrokitsDev Gotcha, thanks! I'd love to split it up so I could change the channel per gate... but that's quite a particular use case I'd imagine. Thanks for the reply!
@@StephenMcLeod for really particularirinimities there's the RK002 which you can use as a RK006 midi FX bus as well - it can reroute channels / events to trigger ports or whatever, I can whip you up a RK002/DUY for that.
The important problem is that the MIDI bus is isolated with optocouplers to prevent noise or ground issues. But devices with TRS MIDI don't always have optocouplers. Typically devices with TRS MIDI will also have USB power and they usually don't isolate that, either. So everybody has awesome MIDI devices with great audio quality except who cares because it's got constant interference. The only way you can fix that is getting either an expensive isolated industrial USB hub or a super sketchy USB isolator dongle which will probably die quickly because the device is drawing more power than it can handle (usually about 200 mA).
It's not something most people will notice unless you're plugging your USB-powered synth into the same power brick as something else. Then it's crazy how noisy some things get. Guitar pedals have used TRS MIDI (and even TS MIDI) for much longer, and the companies that make guitar pedals seem to not have any of these problems. Even Roland does a better job when they're putting the Boss name on things LOL.
100% agree ... especially if you are new to the scene and were told "oh yea MIDI is the standard how equipment talks to each other" .. ummm what?? THEN you go buy what you THINK is the right TRS to DIN adapter off of amazon but if the vendor did not also show a pick of the wiring diagram you get the wrong thing. ugh.
din-5 for life
Amen.
Yes! I love being able to plug my OG DX7 Mk1 into modern stuff like my Arturia KeyStep Pro. The DX7 came out the year MIDI did. I love that MIDI has remained backwards compatible.
@@jennoscura2381 And I love being able to plug my Oxi One TRS into my Keystep Pro DIN. The Arturia is great, but it's MIDI CC is harder to program. Having two separate sequencers let's you offset the weaknesses of both.
Totally agree - it could have been awesome, but instead it's a constant source of frustration.
What kind of awful timeline are we living in
I stil remember using 5pin din cables to record the Top 40 from the stereo to my ITT tape recorder in the 1970s. Happy days....
That's some dedication to the Top 40.
I just recently purchased a Morningstar MIDI Box to make these connections more convenient. You do have to know whether your device is TRS type A or B to set the individual port jumpers but once that’s done you’re good to go. Another good option for 1/4” (6.35mm) TRS MIDI is the Strymon Conduit.
I've not seen those before. Pretty cool.
The best (but janky) solution I have found is using TRS to RCA cables and swapping the stereo channels when going A to B. I don’t know why there was no agreement on this until recently.
They want us to suffer!!
Midi 2.0 is on its way, and is USB-C connector to USB-C connector, it will solve a bunch of problems while creating some new ones. especially for those of us who occasionally circuit bend stuff. I recently watched a talk on it at a tech conference, software support is well on its way for alot of embedded operating systems then we will probably start to see more devices.
Yeah, when though? It's been "on its way" for nearly 20 years at this point
@@rorz999 and every year that goes by it has less value as there is more and more gear without it.
@@rorz999 Operating systems now have drivers, which means that DAW's are now working on support and various manufacturers are starting to release controllers with support for it, so stuff is now actually working and i'd expect it to properly start showing up in the next 2-5 years. Alot of hardware has a 2-5 year development cycle and i'd expect that where it actually makes sense new hardware thats now in early stages of development would probably be targeting using it. Where as stuff that will be released in the next year or two thats been under development for a while may not. Smaller manufacturers will probably still wait a little longer though.
I like 5 pin MIDI, it's a solid connection like XLR jacks, and reliable.
5PINORDEATH
@@StephenMcLeod 🏆🏆🏆
Good semi-rant. Carry on. :) I prefer 5-pin...but I also collect old synths.
God loves a ranter.
You make good points but this is always an emotive subject . However I think most of us work round to find solutions but as you rightly state - why should we .
Great content and delivery as ever 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks for watching!!
Totally with you on this, I actually like the trs format (saves space, more variety in cables, cheaper cables) but the lack of labelling is a massive mistake.
Even if they just labelled the damn things it'd make things easier.
I really like that Elektron made the mini-jack midi polarity switchable in their model: series
That is a really cool idea and I wish it was more common.
This had me pulling out my hair with the Polyend tracker which uses type b and all my cables where type a
Yuuup
I can't believe MIDI 2.0 isn't a wireless system with affordable dongle plugs baked in.
It reminds me of Henry Ford saying “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
:D
One kind out of the Force, and another into the FM2, I'm about to have masking tape on everything just like Da, the adoption has been an insane process
I hate the Force's TRS MIDI. I hate it.
@@StephenMcLeod at least it's placed when I won't smack it off flush at surface like on the smaller ones, with the Force I found myself wishing I had more USB synths, def not the line of thought I wanted to be on
One major concern is what the screen of an input jack is connected to. Is it insulated from the chassis and not connected to 0V of the circuitry? On a DIN connector the shell is not connected to the cable screen and pin 2 is not connected at the MIDI In end. On a jack plug the cable screen will be connected to a metal jack bushing and even with a plastic one there is no guarantee that the jack contact is not connected and this will defeat the opto isolation.
These are the technical details we need for the revolution!!
I think we can point the finger at one or two influential manufactrers (ahemturia) for jumping the gun before the MIDI assoc decided on the standard. It's not bad in itself, with a lot of gear being smaller it makes sense.
To be fair, I think the MIDI association were painfully slow to adopt a standard... stifling innovation, and ultimately they are just a collection of companies anyway - so it's their own fault!!
usually if I'm not sure I think "Arturia is the one different than all the others"
The solution is super simple. You don’t need a DIN adapter. You just need a trs to male RCA splitter and a TRS to female RCA splitter.
Plug them in to each other and you have a TRS MIDI cable. If the connection doesn’t work just swap the male and female connections : from red-to-red and white-to-white to red-to-white for both connections. It’s fast, simple and about as elegant as it can be.
Educational stuff, thanks
Yet another dope video! As a dabbler in the hobby I appreciate the help understanding how we got into this mess.
One question, when did the mini-jack enter the scene? You mentioned 2018 standard adoption but when did the game start? Roughly start of course:)
Thanks! The MIDI association website suggests that it was in 2010... though I suspect it was used in DIY mod scenes before that.
Good vid great learning for newb ,cables& connections 😱🤘🏴
:*
I totally agree, one exception trs midi in an analog the things two exceptions and that’s breath control… which just a personal piece of electronic paraphilia for me in modular, like mpe cv control would be for people who’ve done this, the other though is the new 6mod6 module and daw automation…. It generally takes a lot for me to care about gears but it is a wicked out of the box thought.
Love your videos Stephen!
Thanks!!
Great info! Thank you
One of my favorite things about my MPC One, is I have an 8 port USB Hub, and all of a sudden I can plug a large number of midi devices in and everything just works, but yeah there are plenty of other places where USB Midi isn't good enough or useful.
Yeah, that feature on the modern Akais is awesome.
TRS MIDI would have been my favorite type of MIDI with it's small form factor pretty common connector, if there wasn't that confusion with the two sub-types (A & B) that you explain very well. Notice a mini-jack polarity inverter is just enough but yes it remains painful.
How cool it would have been if eveything worked with just a standard of TRS (let's say A) ? We would just re-use our good old mini jack-cables.
Otherwise, I personally use CME WIDI which works well for small setups, and RK-06 with Retrokits' orange DIN to A/B adapters. CME is also working on a pretty promising hybrid WIDI/MIDI/USB DIN hub.
Preach!
I love TRS MIDI. I've been working on tabletop setup that fits inside a pedalboard and I need all the space I can get. TRS with angled cables means I can put devices very close together (if the MIDI port is on top then it doesn't really matter if it's DIN). I use a TRS MIDI hub that has switches for each output between type A and B.
Heathen!!! What hub is that?
Not sure if I heard it but I think they also cant pass power to thru boxes etc. right? Lots of midi interfaces supply power on the pins for 5 pin.
The MIDI standard only uses 3 of the 5 pins, so TRS-MIDI provides exactly the same functionality. Power is provided on the SOURCE pin.
The MIDI standard only uses 3 of the 5 pins, so TRS-MIDI provides exactly the same functionality. Power is provided on the SOURCE pin.
@@0Fdigital Interesting. I know my akai force doesn't supply power on its 3.5 trs midi connection, will need to check out more that I have. Thanks for the info!
Hey, the Midihub from Blokas sadly has no Midi Host function. :(
omg wut. Really?! Welp. Thanks for pointing that out. I've not got one myself. I'm using the RK-006. *grimace*.
It can be welcoming if the devices using type-a. I have the nerdeq expander connected to a bitbox by a single trs cable. The Pam expander, stolperbeats, and sp404mk2 all use type a and its been great not having to use dongles, and thick midi cables
That's a big if unfortunately!! But yeah, when it works, it is great.
dude, this video saved me! I have a faderfox I never used and finally tried to setup and it wasn't working. pulling my hair out. your video and tried a different cable and voila!
Oh nice! I am glad that was helpful :D
THANKS! More Millennials should realize this. (Gen X exists! having used samplers with magnetic discs!) There are so many reasons for DIN MIDI! and still ways to expand it with 2.0 It's a more solid connector for stage use, it has the Opto Isolators that you could easily take for granted... untill you hear the NOIIIISE from USB
Optoisolators aren't exclusive to DIN ports. It's part of the circuit and definitely possible to include if the connector is TRS. It's also part of the MIDI standard, no matter which port is being used, so manufacturers should be following it.
1010music Blackbox is definitely no "toy" with it's TRS-B minijack MIDI. Marking all your adapters, is the best advice.
But then I need to check them all :'(
Shootin by a window these days? They allow you out of the synth cave? Nice one, fella! Natural lighting is looking good.
Midi frustrates me. CV makes more sense to my brain. I also appreciate Elta Music's take on midi:
"Why do you need a midi? You haven't played it yet, but you already need a midi.
It's a self-contained instrument with its own keyboard. Plus it has enough CV - Gate inputs and outputs to connect external sources, including midi keyboards, most of which already have CV Gate outputs. I sincerely don't understand what Midi is for in such an instrument. To send sequences ?"
The quack told me I needed some more vitamin D.
@@StephenMcLeod You probably do, living in sunny Scotland, but I prefer it in a bottle. That sunlight stuff is dangerous.
A: "There are at least 3 different competing standards"
B: "Let's make a new standard, combining the best of all three!"
Result: There are now at least 4 different competing standards.
While most musical instruments have standard and robust Din midi sockets, it can be quite irritating to have to connect certain gear via TRS adapters. The TRS sockets are relatively flimsy and have very thin cables and the socket or plug can easily be damaged if a cable is tugged or someone trips over the cable
Down with TRS MIDI!
I eat gatekeepers for breakfast! 😆And yes.. DIN is KING! I feel you on this, such a pain. I have the correct midi adapters practically glued to my NTS-1 and Volca FM II lol 🐀
Maybe super glue is the only real solution!!
@@StephenMcLeod Epoxy would be better. Super glue spreads so well that it creeps inside connectors and can put a layer of insulation onto pins.
I love usb midi… and rtp-midi(Ethernet)… I have the mioXL, usually connected to Force… thekikgen mod adds rtp-midi to mpc… all my computers, akai stuff, iPads can control my synths from a single connection each via a dedicated midi network.
you must be the only person on the planet that uses ethernet midi. ;p
I'd definitely prefer to have good old DIN, but if it's a choice between minijacks or only having USB then I'm glad to have the jacks.
Making them extra extra mini like the otherwise great Uno did is annoying, though. As is different companies having different versions, thereby necessitating dongles for your dongles (or making your own cables like I did.
It would be nice if A was just the standard going forward and devices going forward were required to have a software or hardware setting. If there was a circuit that could do auto sensing with a chip you could just buy and easily integrate that would be nice.
Decoupling from excessive complexity… even in eurorack was insane in the beginning…. It’s definitely not like disagreements like what we all waded through to get here❤( I’m remembering wars over u height in Doepfers early days when there was no eurorack agreement yet…) so even if it’s a storm in a teacup it points at other problems standardization has ups and downs as well. ❤
I prefer minijack over DIN and route all my midi through the RK-006, but I get the frustration between A and B. It's easy enough to rewire an aux cable though and keep a few on hand when the situation comes up.
Is it really though?! Most people can't do this.
@@StephenMcLeod I can do it, but I'm incapable of doing it neatly. Being able to do something is not the same as wanting to though, or being likely to getting around to doing it.
No excuses for the Force having the little shits on them either!
The Force really is a disgrace in that regard.
5 pin is so much more sturdy those unused pins still supplying a nice bit of purchase in the socket.
Gotta get a good grip in there!!
100% It's because they had the chance to make MIDI better but they chose proprietary bs instead.
:'(
I always have a converter cable at the ready, just in case.
Simply TRS AB. Simple.
Tell me more about this cable. Is it male jacks on each side, female? male/female? DIN/minijack? minojack/minijack!?
@@StephenMcLeod It’s the TRS-A to TRS-B Dongle from Retrokits. Plug on one side, jack on the other. Love it.
@@StephenMcLeod Yes, many possibilities - too many. I think the simplest way for a non-solderer, or reluctant solderer, is the TRS to RCA solution. You have to get a bunch of different ones, some with RCA plugs, some with RCA sockets, then decide how many permutations of TRS plug and socket you want, or just stick with one solution. Plugs last a lot longer than sockets but if you have plugs at both ends, you need the right lengths, or buy some TRS extensions. Some adapters and extensions have really bad sockets - really loose and poor connections, which is an argument for sticking with plugs on your adapters, maybe, then find a good source of extensions.
I like DIN MIDI. I love that I can plug my Arturia KeyStep Pro to my DX7 which originally came out in 1983, the yesr MIDI was introduced. Mini jack means I need a Mini plug to DIN adapter. And with the thpe A and B issue, it's even worse. I currently don't have any mini jack MIDI items. I am not sure if I want to get any. I love that Behringer uses DIN on their clones. It makes things much easier to integrate into my setup.
In my setup I have a KeyStep Pro connected to two 6 way MIDI through boxes. I had my DX7 plugged into the MIDI in on the KSP. But for some reason it's not working right. One of the through boxes is connected to the MIDI in on a second KSP that I use with my Eurorack. My first KSP is connected to my computer. So I can hit record in the DAW and both KSPs fire up.
Anyone have idea why my DX7 doesn't work right as a master keyboard plugged into my KSP? It works fine plugged directly into another synth. If I could get that working right I could use my DX7 to play my modular by running the MIDI through one KSP, into the other KSP, and out through CV and gate. My best guess is latency issues using the KSP as a MIDI router. I am tempted to get one of those Kenton 25 way through boxes. Then I could run the KSP and DX7 i to it with my MIDI merger.
Hopefully I will figure something out. I really like the key bed on my DX7. So I really want to be able to use it as a master keyboard.
I don't own a KeyStep Pro and didn't even know they had MIDI in but you can always try MIDI-OX or similar to route from one USB MIDI connection to another. It's in the Options menu, under MIDI Devices.
You'd need a DIN MIDI to USB-MIDI adapter, of course, but you probably already have one.
So true, the akai force is s premium box, why does it have TRS.
It's bizarre.
agreed, extra annoying that there are two (?) standards
It's a pain in the erse! Only one standard now technically, but the confusion persists...
So, um, why the headphones Stephen? Are you listening to ABBA while making a vid?
I can't get by without abba constantly blaring
I love TRS midi, my rules to enjoying midi life are, if its usb only, it serves no purpose to me, and if it's midi type-B I wont even consider it. The worst midi of all though is cursed guitar pedal midi.
Guitar pedal MIDI does take the biscuit tbf
ok stephen, already had done two out of the three things you said not to do so here's the third one: well said. it's fine. manufacturers should definitely stop with the non-standard stuff, and certainly not marking it as non-standard is a type of negligence.
one of the nice things about the moog m32 is its din midi in. but it's in the wrong place, if all you have is the standard straight din connector
Haha what were the three things I said not to do!?
@@StephenMcLeod comment like and subscribe!
I love the RetroKits hub and their sequencer too so mini jack forms the heart of set-up, so I'm a fan 'cos it's so dead easy to get everything working. Never trust USB anything!
Amen!!
The Retrokits RK006 is great. Got that one too and I thoroughly enjoy it. I use TRS-TRS and TRS-DIN midi cables where applicable and I’m not fussed. But 10 midi outputs and two midi inputs (not including the USB bidirectional port) with all kinds of ways to route and filter in a tiny footprint is perfect for me. I also appreciate the easy TRS-TRS cables to connect my OXY ONE. And the occasional usage of TRS-B, well, I resoldered new 3,5 mm plugs to a long TRS-TRS cable that I halved and got two type B cables in my kit. Just mark it with a colored tiewrap to mark it (I used green for type B) and you always know it’s the type B. So no, I really don’t mind the TRS standard. But let’s get our knickers in a knot about all those pesky audio connectors! 1/4 or 1/8 inch, TR, TRS, TRRS, Balanced, Unbalanced, Cinch, XLR… I mean… when I started out I was bamboozled by all that… And let’s not talk about those 9V psu’s with center pin negative for most fx pedals, except when they are center pin positive and the risk you blow up you pedal (happened to my Eventide H9 Max and it blew up a diode that I luckily was able to replace, who needs reverse polarity protection on an expensive pedal? 😮)… So yeah people are people, always building towers of Babel to make an easy buck. Which shareholder wants standards if it costs them? 😢 Ahwell… All good, cheers man!
Valid argument. You also just wanted to say block a$$. Also valid.
You got me. :D
Resonates with me, the midi trs a and b etc. TRS to TRS MIDI leads just look like the CV patch cables. aaaargh. 😅 wait a minute…? Are they the same thing? Lol
They are not! CV is TS. You can tell by whether it has a single or double line on the metal. TS is single line. TRS is double lined.
I recently got an elektron model cycles and even tho it's supposed to automatically detect whether it's trs-a or TRS-B coming in, I can't get any midi at all except over usb, and given that I'm not using usb for my other devices (if I was I'd have to have some massive dongle dangling off my computer) it bothers me to no end. Each usb midi device seems to introduce its own inscrutable amount of latency and each mini jack midi device requires a silly amount of adapters and I have to keep track of which one is sending what on tip and ring. I have enough wires to deal with without that nonsense
I don’t think it automatically detects, I think there’s an option to select A or B type. But it’s a while since I had mine.
There may also be an option to select usb midi or 8 pin midi.
Interesting. I have a cycles and have so much trouble with usb midi and noise. The trs works, but the din adapters are so delicate, one broke within a couple of months and have had to replace them.
You broke a DIN adapter?! You maniac.
Amen to this. At least it has the option to select between the two though. I believe it might detect incoming MIDI, but output has to be selected? I've never actually used one though.
@@StephenMcLeod yup. I've gone through the whole troubleshooting wagon of solutions. It is bisexual on the way in and a switch on the out.
I believe the actual jack is broken. This isn't as hard to believe as you think. When I bought my circuit OG, it fell off the table as I was playing it with headphones. Ever since, that jack only plays out of one ear.
All it takes is a particularly raucous session and those little jacks get murdered by the groove
I'm here for the pink flamingo.🙄
The real star of the show.
This is one of the many reasons I own 4 sampling groove boxes 😄
You tell yourself whatever you have to. :D
(full disclosure; one of those is the Force 😬)
I hate that I gotta use a TRS-to-TS breakout and a TS-to-TRS female with a TRS cable to swap between type A & B. Especially when I wanna use My Polyend Tracker with my 404MK2.
Look how goofy that sentence was to read 😂. And also thats like 3-4 adapters. Wtf lol
It's ridiculous!!
If something has mini jack midi, it’s not for me.
And Eurorack midi is mostly trs
I know. I hate it. I deliberately always buy the big MIDI expanders for the modules that have them.
Next week: Lego Vs Duplo
Why Akai put mini jacks on the Force I will never understand!
Truly bizarre.
Just got a Volca today, it's great except for that big honkin' DIN connecter sticking out of the front panel and getting in the way. Have to say that's the only thing I don't like about it so far.
God bless the big honkin DINs
@@StephenMcLeod Your prospective seems to boil down to "pick a TRS standard". I can respect that, all the stuff I build is type A.
@butsukete1806 it more boils down to... Mini jack midi could have been awesome but is a pain because they didn't agree on a standard in time.
@@StephenMcLeod In time for what? And who is "they"?
@@butsukete1806 In time prior to the format being used on numerous devices with different wirings. The MIDI Association, ergo the manufacturers.
Are we talking about some brands who don't provide USB MIDI Class compliance (or even audio class compliance) and require proprietary drivers for USB MIDI ? 😉 Even more frustrating than all this TRS debacle.
Throwing another cat in amongst the pigeons I see!!
Midi: On Notice!
I think I could take TRS MIDI. Not so sure about DIN mind.
Ok I think TRS aint too bad, given it has more flex than stock 5 pin din, it is easier to plumb in the rear rather than what I have to do, which is build around the stupid larger sized cables.
I shit you not, I have had to make custom wooden racks to be able to lift over the 5 pin din, or aside, in this case I think TRS is better for my use.
That's actually a fair point. DIN can be obnoxiously large and difficult in enclosed spaces.
Ohh the amount of time I spend trying out a crate full of TRS/midi converters on these ports is really awkward and a dent in any workflow.
they should really start labeling MIDI A or MIDI B including the cables.
It's hilarious to think that back in the 80s they all agreed on one universal format what worked perfectly fine for the last 40 years.
And now since the last 5 years or so they just decided to flush that down the drain for god knows what reason.
It's a pain in the erse!!
I'll take it over USB "MIDI" because at least with minijack I can control other synths. Fuck USB MIDI, fuck USB's host-client system, Firewire should've won. I shouldn't need to pay 80 to 200 dollars for a box to make a cheapo folding amazon keyboard talk to a cheapo Volca.
My girlfriend is working on a DIY solution for this and I hope it works.
Preach!
5 pin DIN to the end of time, please
Praise be.
Push 3 is disturbing, being a 2K device without delivering the adapters - maybe it‘s ok in 10 years, not having anymore adapters, but until then..
Yeah, I think adapters should be included generally.
Disappointed that Digitakt 2 don't have usb host
I wish they had added removable/upgradeable storage!!
Yeah me too
Yamaha SEQTRAK
Yanaha Reface
Reface is a crime. Same thing as is on the old Tenori:On.
its annoying yes but labeling a few cords really isnt that big of a deal
I dare say good sir that you are being somewhat reductive your assessment of my frustrations
Why the fuck isnt there a switching trs to midi that doea a and b
Preach!
Was it painful to get those tattoos on the palm of your hands mate ?
Awful. Worst pain I've ever experienced. No word of a lie. But I got both done at once.
@@StephenMcLeod Oofft I bet lol . Great channel btw
I hate midi in gen also pedals 😮 I
Yes TRS MIDI is rubbish
preach
Shite but better than wireless midi, bye bye wires hello latency jitter etc etc !!
Oh yeah, I chose to completely ignore wireless MIDI ha. p.s. I am seeing your face everywhere now because of that D-Box.
@@StephenMcLeod D-Box ?
@@awkwardtom The big beautiful new Dreadbox!!
@@StephenMcLeod haha if my face is on it, it won’t sell well !
Solution: Boycott everything but Type A. Same with USB-C
I am too far down the rabbit hole at this point unfortunately :'(
Good idea. But it sucks if something you really want uses type B.
@@jennoscura2381 We don't negotiate with terrorists.
Rad Sir!
BLOCKASS 😅
I don't know what you mean!!
Anyone who calls a synth they dont like a "toy" is usually pretty toxic. You see it a lot.
I personally love 1/8th midi jacks, but i dont really care whether it's 5 pin din or 1/8th socket, as long as it has midi in and/or out :)
My big dislike is for USB midi. I absolutely refuse to buy another hunk of plastic just to make it so some small synth that skimped on jacks can get used by my midi controller. I had to pass that 50 dollar behringer thing, even though I love the form factor, for the same reason. Only had USB midi out. Unusable for my purposes!
i think i actually did run into the TRS A/B issue, i didnt realize that was even a thing, I thought maybe I was just too new (it was a year into my synth journey), but I do now remember at one point having to use a type A and type B adapter with a normal midi cable in the middle.
It's definitely been used as a pejorative!!