They’re really not that bad. Where did you have an issue with this question? It was really more about timestamps than layers since humility and the factory were both trying to do the same thing.
@@juts89 They're really not. Imagine you have a non-goblin creature that you've mind controlled, an effect that makes all your creatures goblins, and an effect that gives goblins you control haste and +1/+1. Look at the intuitive end result and you've figured out layers 2, 4, and 6/7. Layer 1 is obvious ("what's written on the card", mostly, plus clone stuff), layer 3 is mostly irrelevant, and the order of 4 and 5 matters for like 3 cards in the game so pretend I said "red" instead of "goblin" and you're covered there too. Dependencies are complicated. The rest mostly isn't. Oh, and there are annoying edge cases they put in like basic land type changes and "X becomes an artifact creature" being jank.
Dang, I was so sure it would end up as a 2/2 - I thought something about dependant effects would make the Humility apply later, seeing as it couldn't affect the MF until after the ability was activated.
The important thing here is that the ability has already resolved at this time, and that the P/T setting effect happens "independently" of the (earlier applied) type changing effect. Layer dependencies relate to the number of permanents affected. Hope this reminder helps you in the future ☺️
The problem of knowing just enough (dependencies exist) to get yourself into trouble, but not enough (they don't apply, it's just timestamps) to get yourself out again. :)
Intuitively I do think it should be this way :) They separate out the effects to keep it manageable legally... There's an alternative universe where they printed P/T on all self-animating cards, just like they do on Vehicles. In that case, the self-animate wouldn't set its P/T as an "effect", so even a humility played much earlier would still CHANGE the original P/T.
I had to reread 613.8a several times to convince myself that you're right here, that it's not a dependency... It talks about if applying one effect would change whether the other effect applies, which is definitely happening here... but within the context of 613.8 above it, we're talking _within a layer_ so I guess the rule is supposed to read as "applying just the part of the effect in this layer, would cause the other effect to apply or not apply or etc". Which isn't how the rule is actually _worded_ but... I guess? Compare to the wording in 613.6 which makes very clear the distinction between "an effect" (which might involve multiple layers) vs "parts of an effect" (in each layer). The dependency system is complicated enough already, we don't need ambiguous terminology to add to it...
Trip down memory lane: This is similar to a rules question I wrote to Scrye (or was it the other one?) about back when Humility was new (and print Magic magazines were a thing). It was if I activate a Xanthic Statue with Humility out, does it get to be an 8/8 with trample. They told me the answer had just changed, but I wish I could remember how. Possibly they had just introduced the timestamp system.
Had a game recently where I had a Gravity Sphere with Inkmoth Nexus already on the battlefield-I think the way they interact is the Nexus would lose flying if it was already animated when the Sphere enters, but any future activations of the ability would give it flying again, but I'm not 100% certain.
I knew it was going to be timestamps, but I thought it was going to be from whem Mishras Factory entered vs Humility entering, not the animation effect on the factory.
I thought I was somehow going to get got by the fact that they both have two effects which apply in different layers and somehow that would change the order of the P/T interaction :)
IMO there should be a new category of bannings called 'Gives judges too much grief'. Just ban them in all formats and try not to make cards like them again. Cards like Humility, Panglacial Wurm, Milikin/Selvala. Id call the category 'Dave has too many videos covering it' but that would remove Blood Moon, which is important to have.
They already have these. Shahrazad, Second Sunrise, Yorion, KCI... If those other cards you mentioned were showing up enough that they were causing a problem, they would probably be on the list too.
If you want to test people's layer knowledge, how about the difference between enchanting Bello, Bard of the Brambles with a Song of the Dryad vs enchanting it with Imprisoned in the Moon and how that will affect Bello's ability to animate artifact/enchantments?
I was about to say that they're the same. Tricky tricky layers! Dryad = Layer 4 dependency = Bello doesn't animate anything Imprisoned = Layer 6 = Bello animates things, even though he is a land with "no abilities" Right?
I have a terrible rules interaction question about panglacial wurm and word of command plus extensions upon it that are not clear if they work. Simply put when making a player play a card that tutors with word of command since you control them while resolving that card if it is a spell, can you cast panglacial wurm? Moreover now since the stack has been forcibly opened while the tutor is still resolving and you control the player while said spell is resolving can you then cast instants in their hand and tap out their remaining mana etc? Keep in mind word of command only has limits to what you can do when controlling a player when choosing a card from their hand before it ceases control only to begin a controlling that player like a normal control effect for the second time when the chosen card begins resolving if it is a spell. I find this interaction deeply unsettling personally and want to be told it doesn't work despite knowing it probably does and that sadly sometimes rules abominations exist.
You can have them cast Panglacial Wurm but you can't cast it yourself. Casting Panglacial Wurm doesn't automatically give you priority when you wouldn't otherwise have it. It just goes onto the top of the stack and waits. It's the same as something like Mnemonic Deluge. You can force them to float all their mana while paying for the Wurm though since you can activate mana abilities as much as you want while paying a cost.
Not terribly relevant to this particular video, but I'm asking anyway. One of my opponents is swinging at me with their commander, who has indestructible and three shield counters. I block it with three creatures, one of which has first strike (the attacker had trample and was big enough that not blocking that way would've killed me via commander damage). How many shield counters does it have after combat?
all damage happens simultaneously on their respective steps, so -1 shield on first strike, then -1 on regular damange, so it's left with 1 shield counter and no damage marked on the creature... to add to the answer tho, the indestructible ability does nothing with the damage because it only replaces the effect of the creature been destroyed as a state-based action due to the damage marked on it from combat, whilst shield counters replace destruction OR damage the creature would suffer.. I could be wrong, but I believe there is a fairly recent DDR about this topic
@@waitWAID That's pretty close to how I though it would work (I can't help but think of three blockers as three instances of damage). Kinda funny thing is that the only reason it was indestructible is he flashed in Mithril Coat just to avoid losing the shield counters. Can't remember the commander, but it was able to run Simic Ascendancy and it cared about number of different kinds of counters.
Nope, the humility has a continuous effect that always applies so its timestamp is when the permanent entered, but the factory stat setting is from an activated ability so that’s the relevant timestamp.
I've said it before, it's too bad Magic can't do a total wipe and start over again with streamlined rules. People complain about Dungeons and Dragons having multiple editions, saying it's just a cash grab, but it really isn't. There are so many new supplements / rule books / etc made over the years that the rules just get too bloated and everything needs to be wiped back to basics again.
Mmm...but if you're selling so much supplemental stuff that you have to "wipe it", maybe you shouldn't have kept selling all the supplements. It's not the new editions necessarily, it's the constant more more more product pushing, of which new editions are just a part of the cycle.
Once again, layers are the bane of my existence
They’re really not that bad. Where did you have an issue with this question? It was really more about timestamps than layers since humility and the factory were both trying to do the same thing.
@@Sheer_Falacythey are absolutely that bad. They are extremely unintuitive and hard to determine
@@juts89 They're really not. Imagine you have a non-goblin creature that you've mind controlled, an effect that makes all your creatures goblins, and an effect that gives goblins you control haste and +1/+1. Look at the intuitive end result and you've figured out layers 2, 4, and 6/7. Layer 1 is obvious ("what's written on the card", mostly, plus clone stuff), layer 3 is mostly irrelevant, and the order of 4 and 5 matters for like 3 cards in the game so pretend I said "red" instead of "goblin" and you're covered there too.
Dependencies are complicated. The rest mostly isn't. Oh, and there are annoying edge cases they put in like basic land type changes and "X becomes an artifact creature" being jank.
just wait till you get to dependencies 😂
Humility is the Lex Luthor of this channel.
Fighting it out with Blood Moon and Dress Down, both cards with similar effects.
Humility is a card I've always wished was modern legal.
And then, WotC printed Dress Down...
This is making me want to make a “layers matter” commander deck even more than I already did
Be sure to have mutate and oko
I have a 5 color judge questions edh deck
@@midn8588oh that is aweful
Dang, I was so sure it would end up as a 2/2 - I thought something about dependant effects would make the Humility apply later, seeing as it couldn't affect the MF until after the ability was activated.
The important thing here is that the ability has already resolved at this time, and that the P/T setting effect happens "independently" of the (earlier applied) type changing effect.
Layer dependencies relate to the number of permanents affected.
Hope this reminder helps you in the future ☺️
The problem of knowing just enough (dependencies exist) to get yourself into trouble, but not enough (they don't apply, it's just timestamps) to get yourself out again. :)
Intuitively I do think it should be this way :) They separate out the effects to keep it manageable legally...
There's an alternative universe where they printed P/T on all self-animating cards, just like they do on Vehicles. In that case, the self-animate wouldn't set its P/T as an "effect", so even a humility played much earlier would still CHANGE the original P/T.
I had to reread 613.8a several times to convince myself that you're right here, that it's not a dependency... It talks about if applying one effect would change whether the other effect applies, which is definitely happening here... but within the context of 613.8 above it, we're talking _within a layer_ so I guess the rule is supposed to read as "applying just the part of the effect in this layer, would cause the other effect to apply or not apply or etc". Which isn't how the rule is actually _worded_ but... I guess?
Compare to the wording in 613.6 which makes very clear the distinction between "an effect" (which might involve multiple layers) vs "parts of an effect" (in each layer).
The dependency system is complicated enough already, we don't need ambiguous terminology to add to it...
Eyyy, I got the question right! (I think the hours I've spent learning layers and testing myself on them are paying off)
Trip down memory lane: This is similar to a rules question I wrote to Scrye (or was it the other one?) about back when Humility was new (and print Magic magazines were a thing). It was if I activate a Xanthic Statue with Humility out, does it get to be an 8/8 with trample. They told me the answer had just changed, but I wish I could remember how. Possibly they had just introduced the timestamp system.
Had a game recently where I had a Gravity Sphere with Inkmoth Nexus already on the battlefield-I think the way they interact is the Nexus would lose flying if it was already animated when the Sphere enters, but any future activations of the ability would give it flying again, but I'm not 100% certain.
A similar question was considered in DDR#456: th-cam.com/video/0mwoqcYLcCE/w-d-xo.html
I knew it was going to be timestamps, but I thought it was going to be from whem Mishras Factory entered vs Humility entering, not the animation effect on the factory.
I thought I was somehow going to get got by the fact that they both have two effects which apply in different layers and somehow that would change the order of the P/T interaction :)
IMO there should be a new category of bannings called 'Gives judges too much grief'. Just ban them in all formats and try not to make cards like them again. Cards like Humility, Panglacial Wurm, Milikin/Selvala. Id call the category 'Dave has too many videos covering it' but that would remove Blood Moon, which is important to have.
They already have these. Shahrazad, Second Sunrise, Yorion, KCI...
If those other cards you mentioned were showing up enough that they were causing a problem, they would probably be on the list too.
If you want to test people's layer knowledge, how about the difference between enchanting Bello, Bard of the Brambles with a Song of the Dryad vs enchanting it with Imprisoned in the Moon and how that will affect Bello's ability to animate artifact/enchantments?
I was about to say that they're the same. Tricky tricky layers!
Dryad = Layer 4 dependency = Bello doesn't animate anything
Imprisoned = Layer 6 = Bello animates things, even though he is a land with "no abilities"
Right?
@@CharlotteMimiccorrect.
DDR#787 touched on a similar theme: th-cam.com/video/eGURdvq9RlI/w-d-xo.html
I have a terrible rules interaction question about panglacial wurm and word of command plus extensions upon it that are not clear if they work.
Simply put when making a player play a card that tutors with word of command since you control them while resolving that card if it is a spell, can you cast panglacial wurm?
Moreover now since the stack has been forcibly opened while the tutor is still resolving and you control the player while said spell is resolving can you then cast instants in their hand and tap out their remaining mana etc?
Keep in mind word of command only has limits to what you can do when controlling a player when choosing a card from their hand before it ceases control only to begin a controlling that player like a normal control effect for the second time when the chosen card begins resolving if it is a spell.
I find this interaction deeply unsettling personally and want to be told it doesn't work despite knowing it probably does and that sadly sometimes rules abominations exist.
You can have them cast Panglacial Wurm but you can't cast it yourself.
Casting Panglacial Wurm doesn't automatically give you priority when you wouldn't otherwise have it. It just goes onto the top of the stack and waits. It's the same as something like Mnemonic Deluge.
You can force them to float all their mana while paying for the Wurm though since you can activate mana abilities as much as you want while paying a cost.
Not terribly relevant to this particular video, but I'm asking anyway.
One of my opponents is swinging at me with their commander, who has indestructible and three shield counters. I block it with three creatures, one of which has first strike (the attacker had trample and was big enough that not blocking that way would've killed me via commander damage). How many shield counters does it have after combat?
I would think it has one shield counter left. One removed during the first strike damage step and one removed during the regular combat damage step.
all damage happens simultaneously on their respective steps, so -1 shield on first strike, then -1 on regular damange, so it's left with 1 shield counter and no damage marked on the creature... to add to the answer tho, the indestructible ability does nothing with the damage because it only replaces the effect of the creature been destroyed as a state-based action due to the damage marked on it from combat, whilst shield counters replace destruction OR damage the creature would suffer.. I could be wrong, but I believe there is a fairly recent DDR about this topic
@@waitWAID That's pretty close to how I though it would work (I can't help but think of three blockers as three instances of damage). Kinda funny thing is that the only reason it was indestructible is he flashed in Mithril Coat just to avoid losing the shield counters. Can't remember the commander, but it was able to run Simic Ascendancy and it cared about number of different kinds of counters.
No timestamp weirdness where it cares about when Factory entered rather than when it was animated?
Nope, the humility has a continuous effect that always applies so its timestamp is when the permanent entered, but the factory stat setting is from an activated ability so that’s the relevant timestamp.
This is the kinda stuff that makes me lose interest in this game. I'd rather file my taxes than try to sort this out during a game.
Nerd
I've said it before, it's too bad Magic can't do a total wipe and start over again with streamlined rules. People complain about Dungeons and Dragons having multiple editions, saying it's just a cash grab, but it really isn't. There are so many new supplements / rule books / etc made over the years that the rules just get too bloated and everything needs to be wiped back to basics again.
Mmm...but if you're selling so much supplemental stuff that you have to "wipe it", maybe you shouldn't have kept selling all the supplements. It's not the new editions necessarily, it's the constant more more more product pushing, of which new editions are just a part of the cycle.