This season on Glad You Asked, we explore how racial injustice impacts our society. Watch the full season here: bit.ly/3fCd6lt Want updates on our new projects and series? Sign up for the Vox video newsletter: www.vox.com/video-newsletter For more reading about inequity in the U.S. education system, which we covered in this episode, visit our post on Vox.com: bit.ly/31U8S0J
Not sure if you already did this, but is there a segment that talks about Critical Race Theory that you covered? This may be an interesting part of the over-arching question that CRT is centered around: "How/Why is it that people of different Demographics/Identities face different outcomes from the same systems in the legal Justice System (and any other societal systems)?
Access to a healthy diet and nutrition also has a direct impact on a kids performance and ability to learn and grow as a human being. Poor diet and and nutrition is plaguing our working class and middle class families statistically. This can't end well
Agree, coming from a financially struggling family in a not so decent environment... It definitely takes a toll on you. Those key factors are crucial in influencing ones future
@@thatfroginpeppapig2543 me coming from an immigrant family growing up on welfare can concurr. The goal is to get to a better place than where you come from. You do that and the your children repeat. Eventually you get to a place of financial security. You see that in the US repeated over and over. The "fantasy" stories are few and far between and a lot of those end up going broke. Most of the Billionaires actually come from solid upper middle class families. 🤔🤔
@@ikerivers1795 Yes you are very right, family background and status are huge stepping stones. As we know, wealth comes with privileges and being poor dosent. being in a middle-class state gives you more of an advantage than those who are near the lower class line, also depends on what resources surrounds you and how well off your country is. As they say growth comes from opportunity
I love the concept of having more / less stones. It makes it so much easier to explain how coming from a wealthy background helps out that much more than education alone
The opportunity gap is so layered. It's not only about quality of public education and the resources at certain schools. It's not even about wifi access at home. It comes down to every aspect of life and society. Access to nourishing food so that children grow up healthy, energized, and ready to learn. Access to income supplements so that kids don't need to work after school and can focus that time on studying or curricular activities. Better low income housing standards so that people have healthy, safe places to live and study. Universal healthcare so that kids have access to prescription glasses, speech therapy, and other learning supports. It's tragic how often kids with dyslexia, poor eyesight, malnourishment, or lack of sleep are just labeled stupid and pushed to the side. We need comprehensive social reform and I'm so glad people are having this conversation.
“You start to doubt your abilities as a student in middle school so you begin to act out, take the next detour” oof, I felt this in my bones. Turns out when you have to watch two siblings while your dad works out of state and your mom works night shift, people stop referring to you as “gifted” REAL quick.
do you think people deserve more for being gifted? thats and edge in its self. this video focuses way to much on the economic problems with meritocracies and not on the neurological and psychological problems. my life has been a cases study in psychological and nuerological caused discrepancies within our meritocracy. my brother is a gifted student who was , every day publicly pulled from class for being "smarter". i have adhd and was publicly pulled from class , every day ,for being "dumber". this all started early in elementary school while our brains were still developing. as if living in a society where your told if you dont take medication that cuts off your emotions or you dont get to succeed all while having your self of steam stepped on is bad enough - i was also subject to serious trauma at an early age that my brother was not....well my brother is a civil engineer and im a dishwasher. meritocracies are immoral EVEN IF everybody starts in the same socioeconomic place
Genuine question since I am not familiar with living in US, how do Asian minorities manage to score well (based on the graphs shown here) despite the racism against them? Many Asians have had to build their lives from scratch in the US since the last 3 decades, if I am right, and basically started from 0. How did they manage the access gap is something I am unaware of. Happy to learn from a constructive discussion.
I’m late sorry, Asians like African communities have something that African Americans and native Americans do not. Resources and community backing. The Sudanese community in my back yard is VERY close knit and are there for each other in hard times. They make SURE their children are doing what they need to do to at least GO to college. African Americans still struggle with their communities to this day. Likewise for native Americans. Also, Asians and immigrants from certain places are seen as “model minorities”. They are seen as smarter or more likely to succeed because a lot of them do not go against the grain of supremacy. African Americans and native Americans both have grievances and honest reasons to want to go against the grain of supremacy they face every day. Asians and immigrants of color DO face discrimination and racism but not so much in academia. The US set up certain groups of people to fail and without proper historic education, people can forget how it got like that and literally will blame the descendants of genocide and slavery. Segregation was not long ago. Lots of black people were h*nged if they tried to read or to learn. African Americans and native Americans have only been out of heavy supremacy for three generations. Supremacy is still there for these groups. It’s unequal and Asians didn’t go through the same oppression put on black people and natives. Thanks
You are supposed to ignore that, because the reality is that different population groups behave differently and intelligence is largely genetic. The amount of unearned help blacks get in the US is extreme.
@@tortture3519 hmm. I hear this argument and it kind of makes sense and not at the same time. Extremely different currency values, war torn countries, centuries of colonialism. The difference in situation was freedom since post World War 2 at best. I understand there are institutional issues in America but it is a misnomer that most Asians move have a lot of money. If there are stats or links that prove my perception wrong I am happy to learn more.
This is what inherited wealth looks like for the top 20%,” Reeves said. “You don’t save your money and give it to your kids as a bequest. You spend it on your kids so they don’t need the bequest. It’s an upfront investment.” But as universities tilt their admissions toward the wealthy, Reeves said, they aren’t just leaving talented low-income students behind. They’re also lifting mediocre rich students up. A 2005 study found that wealthy middle-schoolers with the lowest standardized test scores were more likely to graduate from college than poor middle-schoolers with the highest scores. Students with average SAT results are nearly six times more likely to be admitted to top-tier universities if their parents are alumni. One of Reeves’ studies found that 43% of the members of upper-class households had skills and intelligence that predicted lower incomes. The 'Glass Floor' Is Keeping America's Richest Idiots At The Top - HuffPost
Sure, more resources definitely can give an individual an advantage. But I think culture also matters a lot though. I know many poor Asian families whose kids did well at school because of the emphasis they placed on education. Similarly, you see many children of celebrities couldn't care less about school despite having all the wealth to succeed.
It seems the real issue here is wealth inequality and not meritocracy. There is no doubt that better resources might lead to better scores. However, it doesn't mean that hard work and talent are irrelevant. It should be noted that not all rich kids get a perfect score and not all poor kids fail miserably. This shows that there are other factors at play apart from wealth/resources. Meritocracy is important because it provides an incentive to work harder. Overall, I feel serious steps should be taken to improve public schools and wealth distribution.
I know it's not apples to apples, but where I'm from my ethnicity (Chinese-Filipino) was treated as second rate citizens for 400 years yet the majority of the wealthiest families here now are Chinese-Filipino. While the same can't be totally said in the US, Asian-Americans there have been discriminated against, surely, yet they're still finding ways to be the best compared to other ethnicities there. Why is that?
As a 1st gen college student, I really appreciate this take on education b/c the perpetual struggle that is put on you by society to constantly compete to survive can take a toll on your mental health
The stories of "rags to riches" or how anyone can get out of the hood through "hardwork" especially pisses me off, because as you said, now we look at those same kids who suffer from lack of opportunity and we tell them "well, ____ became successful, why can't you?"
Equal is not always fair. A person’s opportunity is heavily influenced by the lives their parents lived. So why should those who lived well be penalized for it? It’s on us while we are young to live better than those who came before us. That is how we become equal. That path is truly fair. I came from a single parent household, I didn’t do the best in grade school either but I still went to college. Granted, I went to a community college first then transferred to a four year after, I still made it, and graduated with honors. Being poor, being black, being from a broken house hold, or having terrible parents doesn’t keep you from being successful. It makes it harder yes. It makes it less likely sure, but those who keep on the path and keep faith will find success. America doesn’t promise fairness, but opportunity. What is fair anyway? I was poor, black, and from a broken home was that fair? Was life fair to me?!? If I was to believe this video I’d say no. No one has a perfect life. Are their easier lives sure, but anyone can make it. Meritocracy has truth to it.
So I'm basically sold on the negative argument that we don't have a meritocracy. But what I never hear is a positive argument for an alternative. Could you ever devise a system where people with more resources won't do better? And what trade-offs would be required to make that happen?
This sounds like advising that we look for ways that cause people we distrust to do worse rather than for us to strive harder. Sounds petty and counterproductive. Shame.
As far as I know, in Finland all schools are the same and are financed equally. Financed quite well, from a big part of country's budget. And all children go to these public schools. Be your parents the reachest in the country, your child will still go to a public school. Not sure though if Finnish model is better than American one. Finland isn't the world economy leader, and doesn't have key impact on European politiques, while USA has all these perks. Is it because of education or other things - don't know
No even in nature the more fortunate will do better. I don’t think we can create a way where everyone starts equal. The more fortunate will ALWAYs have a advantage. I think we can create a good baseline where the less fortunate can do good.
Meritocracy itself isn't the problem; lack of equal opportunity is. Some poorer communities in West Virginia, New York, and other states have to put up with spotty internet access, terrible public schools, a lack of extracurricular activities, and often times drugs and violence on the streets. Meanwhile, public schools in well-off neighborhoods tend to be much better. This problem doesn't discriminate based on race; poor people across all races face this problem.
@@jairopavon11 A poor person will always have less opportunities than a rich one. So a meritocracy is an selffeeding loop. So you have not answered my question.
@@Hektagon7085You don't understand so let me spell it out for you. We simply can't. We are not born equal to begin with some are born smarter, taller, stronger, prettier, faster and etc... All we can say the weak need support but we shouldn't punish the strong.
Are you going to talk about racism towards Americans who are NOT white/black in this Glad You Asked Series? Asian-Americans? Latin-Americans? Native Americans? others? This is episode 4 but no mention of other people yet. Hope you eventually publish videos about them too in the coming episodes! It would be timely.
My perspective is everything can be reframed in terms of privilege. We have a society that rewards achievement, but makes achievement dependent on privilege. Therefore we actually reward privilege, just in an indirect way, which slowly but surely concentrates money and power upwards and creates safety for the people who get there.
I think the biggest common thread from this race series, is that race isn’t necessarily the issue in modern day. The largest issue is finances and wealth. If you have money, whether it be self made or through family, you will have FAR more opportunities than your middle or lower class counterparts. It’s not necessarily a race issue, but rather an equity issue.
Yeah. And since many people whose ancestors were enslaved didn’t have a great foundation and lost the potential to make money for a while, it’s almost like they’re starting from nothing. My ancestors were from Nigeria, then taken to Virginia as slaves. My family historically had nothing bc slavery. And all those years were potential for growth. Everyone else just profited from the slavery and act like it never happened.
the US has an abhorrent history of putting up obstacles for people of color. this trauma trickles down into their offspring and shows up in factors such as lifespan and sat testing
Yes you are right but you’re skipping over a problem. In reality, the issue has ALWAYS been about finances and Wealth- lower income white Americans were also getting thrashed by the system. The thing is that while there were wealthy whites and poor whites, because of Slavery, there was never Wealthy blacks (in America) to begin with.
I have neither great wealth nor political power, but it genuinely seems to me that encouraging people to be great at something and rewarding them for it is good for their own life, their family, their community, and the world in general. This video title is kind of clickbait-y; the video wasn't about whether meritocracy is a myth but was more about the uneven distribution of opportunities and corruption that make meritocracy ineffective.
We definitely get tested in finland, all the time. In middle school the tests are spread out so that you have a test on a subject from every other week to one week. In high school there's weeks (each day you have a test) five times a year. The final exams in high school determine what universities you can get into.
It's a nice well researched episode and I totally agree with the fact that wealthy parents act as catalyst getting into good college but I would also like to point out that one should also look into child efforts. For examples Asian and Indians does not come from rich family background. Forget about wifi, they sometimes come from villages where there is no electricity but they still do better than white. So sometimes a hard work payoff too. If you see background of world renowned Indian their family background is not financially good but they still make up to best collages in USA and UK.
This makes me think of Kim K's statement about how women need to just get off their butts are work hard; but what I'm sure she now realizes isn't the miracle advice that will become the great equalizer. The perfect example of this is the "Rigged" game that was played in the clip.
Considering you could have 2 people go through the same exact program at a college with equal GPA - one at an elite school, the other at a state school and the state school grad would not be able to get in the door at companies that the elite grad would get into, the answer is yes for the most part.
Finally, someone is bringing this attention. Growing up in the NYC public school system, this is so apparent. I'd love to help out and be a part of this in any which way possible
5:29 - 5:36 ...Yes that is how 99% of the world feels... those that are born in W-EU, Japan, S-Korea, even the US can consider themselves lucky... in some ways, unlucky in others...
I told someone meritocracy is like a guy with a bow and arrow can beat someone with a tank. They responded the guy with a bow and arrow still can win but if I feel that there is no chance they would put themselves in that position in the first place.
This comes solely from the perspective of success in a corporatist consumerist lifestyle. There are many different lifestyles to persue. If you think a good life comes from wealth you will never be satisfied even when you obtain that wealth.
Meritocracy is a terrible tactic for resource distribution in situations where everyone is in it together, as we are as a nation. Imagine that you are on a rapidly sinking ship with several holes in it. Say you're the captain and you find that one repair group (Group-X) is doing better than the other (Group-Y). Remember time is of the essence and fixing some holes only slows the sinking. Do you send reinforcements to the 'successful' Group-X so that they can get even more done? That might be a good option, but what if the reason Group-X is doing better is just because the conditions faced by the Group-Y are much more difficult? In that case you should obviously reinforce Group-Y. Even if the difference was that Group-X's members were more experienced it wouldn't make sense to reinforce them either as they don't need additional experienced members or even just additional hands, whereas both would help Group-Y. This is just a simple analogy of course and no doubt it has holes of its own. The point is, we should be doing everything we can to help struggling schools. Improve facilities. Add more teachers and staff, favoring the best qualified by offering higher pay and the social and professional recognition that these jobs are especially valued. Maybe send in tutors for students and offer resources to parents (daycare, preschool). It is in all of our best long term interests that we all are prepared for a future together.
"Meritocracy" when we don't all get the same education, access to the same diets, live with the same level of psychological safety, or even face remotely similar challenges?
I’m so excited for this whole season. These are very important topics that need to be discussed. Editing, research, mixing etc are as always, top notch.
Evaluate your results, if not satisfactory, work harder. Repeat until results improve to the level you want. Meritocracy, by definition, ranks an individual within a cohort, therefore, having the effect of differentiating amongst said individuals and thus at odds with notions of equality.
Good points were made by this video. As a NYC parent, watching this new lottery system where grades don’t count does not make sense. So, I educated my kids with summer school, after school, online courses and workbooks (all free or budgeted) for nothing. Hard work is cheating. Pushing my kids that education is the key to success. How does grades not count for education? I’m sure most people would want their doctors tested and have good grades. Is that also common sense?
Is this issue more to do with race or with wealth opportunity? I know of plenty of wealthy colored folks who are doing very well for themselves because of their wealth which I applaud their parents for, and I see many white kids suffering from many setbacks (unable to pay medical bills, unable to finish school work because they're working to support their parents or taking care of their siblings). How much direct impact does race still play today and how much is correlation between skin color and childhood economic standing? Edit and Disclaimer: this comment is not meant to make incidents of racial bias any less relevant, I really don't wanna come across as hateful, I just want to know what others think about this.
imagine growing up in a third world country, how the hell do you get motivation and willingness to study? you just want to die or run away from your neighborhood
Well for someone from Europe, US is far far away from meritocracy. In Europe i can guarantee system is more fair then in US. In Serbia it doesn't matter if you are black, white or whatever, we all go to public schools. Everything depends of a teacher or a professor. Later on highschools and Universities are also public and your chance really depends from your effort, not from you place of residence or social status. In US they don't like to say or admit but meritocracy is more possible in social democracy or even communist systems.
Why are all of these questions so click-baity and un-nuanced? I subscribed to vox for quality nuanced topics. Asking this question is like asking "is communism a myth? 😱" No. You should ask "does our ideas of meritocracy hold water?" Or "how can we improve our meritocratic systems?"
Well. My parents moved here from Benin with 76USD in their pockets they achieved from selling things. Now they both are mentally stable, make over 100k (approx) and have nice families and live in a safe place. The American dream is exaggerated, but you guys just bash it because you expect too much out of the country. You question what it can give you, instead of what you can give it.
Oh ya meritocracy in the US capitalist society and education system is a joke. I do wish they explored meritocracy in other communities and settings such as the open source community, which have championed the ideals of meritocracy where they only cared about your code submissions while still making the scene extremely accessible.
Really great video, amazing points and I’m glad you touched on how you managed to do well yourself but many people don’t and can’t make it, love from the UK.
So funny how Americans talk about testing while growing up in China we took small tests weekly, monthly and big exams twice a semester, got ranked not only amongst your peers in your class but also in your district. I think we take 100 tests probably every school year lol Being able to test for SAT & apply for colleges not fully based on score was already my escape from meritocracy toxicity.
Equity of chance, equality in treatment, that should be the way to go. Sadly it's not the case in the good ol' USA. Merit in itself is something that must be valued, but in a way that everyone under the same conditions (hence equity) gets a good chance of proving themselves and if not able to prove themselves, they still get good opportunities (enough to get the education that'll lead to a successful life). Not to forget the ability to take the good chance more than one time. It doesn't help that education is so costy there either.
Well yes, meritocracy is a myth but, the current system is still the best system of equality we have so far. Although there are many system that in theory would be better, in reality those system requires resources that is by far unavailable. And it requires a balance that is impossible to achieve with such a great level of human greed. Take the Soviet Union for an example, although Lenin intend on making a land of endless opportunity, in the end he created the most imfamous dystopia in history. And Stalin ended up taking it over and create a cult of personality due to his greed. Okay maybe let's take a less harsh example, Lebanon. What used to be the most promising Arab country, even at one point it's capital is called "The Paris of the east", is now just a hot mess due to difference in religion and human greed.
What is the GOALPOST here? The more I delve into politics and economics, the less I understand what we are aiming for. Do we want everyone to score the same on tests? That's unrealistic. Do we want everyone to have the same income? That's socialism, which doesn't work.
They explicitly said the same opportunities, where the same combination of talent and skill allows excess to the same opportunities, as it supposedly works currently but in actuality doesn’t.
I, as a European, personally don’t believe that the American (and in my views quite extreme) version of capitalism is compatible with a true Meritocracy. I always have to laugh when I hear my friends at the other side of the pond rage about any political proposal that’s not downright immoral 😛
Meritocracy is a problem in Black and Asian communities. "Get every accolade, certificate, and honor. Don't be good enough, be 1000× better than good enough, and then some... or you're unworthy"
This series is amazing and really educational. Great job discussing these issues. Just out of curiosity last season there were a few science videos which I found great, are any such episodes in the works or was that unique to the first season?
The way my public education has worked has always been based upon where you lived. Which means I never went to great schools as someone who has always lived well below the poverty line and as a Latina
This season on Glad You Asked, we explore how racial injustice impacts our society. Watch the full season here: bit.ly/3fCd6lt
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For more reading about inequity in the U.S. education system, which we covered in this episode, visit our post on Vox.com: bit.ly/31U8S0J
.iiijbb v. W
Ok..
Not sure if you already did this, but is there a segment that talks about Critical Race Theory that you covered? This may be an interesting part of the over-arching question that CRT is centered around: "How/Why is it that people of different Demographics/Identities face different outcomes from the same systems in the legal Justice System (and any other societal systems)?
Access to a healthy diet and nutrition also has a direct impact on a kids performance and ability to learn and grow as a
human being. Poor diet and and nutrition is plaguing our working class and middle class families statistically.
This can't end well
Education is a stepping stone to success. But money, family stability, environment, etc provide more stones
Agree, coming from a financially struggling family in a not so decent environment... It definitely takes a toll on you. Those key factors are crucial in influencing ones future
@@thatfroginpeppapig2543 me coming from an immigrant family growing up on welfare can concurr. The goal is to get to a better place than where you come from. You do that and the your children repeat. Eventually you get to a place of financial security. You see that in the US repeated over and over. The "fantasy" stories are few and far between and a lot of those end up going broke. Most of the Billionaires actually come from solid upper middle class families. 🤔🤔
@@ikerivers1795 Yes you are very right, family background and status are huge stepping stones. As we know, wealth comes with privileges and being poor dosent. being in a middle-class state gives you more of an advantage than those who are near the lower class line, also depends on what resources surrounds you and how well off your country is. As they say growth comes from opportunity
And hardships load the stone *on top* of you (i.e. pushing you down).
I love the concept of having more / less stones. It makes it so much easier to explain how coming from a wealthy background helps out that much more than education alone
The opportunity gap is so layered. It's not only about quality of public education and the resources at certain schools. It's not even about wifi access at home. It comes down to every aspect of life and society. Access to nourishing food so that children grow up healthy, energized, and ready to learn. Access to income supplements so that kids don't need to work after school and can focus that time on studying or curricular activities. Better low income housing standards so that people have healthy, safe places to live and study. Universal healthcare so that kids have access to prescription glasses, speech therapy, and other learning supports. It's tragic how often kids with dyslexia, poor eyesight, malnourishment, or lack of sleep are just labeled stupid and pushed to the side. We need comprehensive social reform and I'm so glad people are having this conversation.
“You start to doubt your abilities as a student in middle school so you begin to act out, take the next detour” oof, I felt this in my bones. Turns out when you have to watch two siblings while your dad works out of state and your mom works night shift, people stop referring to you as “gifted” REAL quick.
More like when things get tough your true potential comes out. The "gifted" label has been tossed around too liberally.
do you think people deserve more for being gifted? thats and edge in its self. this video focuses way to much on the economic problems with meritocracies and not on the neurological and psychological problems. my life has been a cases study in psychological and nuerological caused discrepancies within our meritocracy. my brother is a gifted student who was , every day publicly pulled from class for being "smarter". i have adhd and was publicly pulled from class , every day ,for being "dumber". this all started early in elementary school while our brains were still developing. as if living in a society where your told if you dont take medication that cuts off your emotions or you dont get to succeed all while having your self of steam stepped on is bad enough - i was also subject to serious trauma at an early age that my brother was not....well my brother is a civil engineer and im a dishwasher.
meritocracies are immoral EVEN IF everybody starts in the same socioeconomic place
Genuine question since I am not familiar with living in US, how do Asian minorities manage to score well (based on the graphs shown here) despite the racism against them? Many Asians have had to build their lives from scratch in the US since the last 3 decades, if I am right, and basically started from 0. How did they manage the access gap is something I am unaware of. Happy to learn from a constructive discussion.
I’m late sorry, Asians like African communities have something that African Americans and native Americans do not. Resources and community backing.
The Sudanese community in my back yard is VERY close knit and are there for each other in hard times. They make SURE their children are doing what they need to do to at least GO to college.
African Americans still struggle with their communities to this day. Likewise for native Americans.
Also, Asians and immigrants from certain places are seen as “model minorities”. They are seen as smarter or more likely to succeed because a lot of them do not go against the grain of supremacy.
African Americans and native Americans both have grievances and honest reasons to want to go against the grain of supremacy they face every day. Asians and immigrants of color DO face discrimination and racism but not so much in academia.
The US set up certain groups of people to fail and without proper historic education, people can forget how it got like that and literally will blame the descendants of genocide and slavery. Segregation was not long ago. Lots of black people were h*nged if they tried to read or to learn. African Americans and native Americans have only been out of heavy supremacy for three generations.
Supremacy is still there for these groups.
It’s unequal and Asians didn’t go through the same oppression put on black people and natives. Thanks
You are supposed to ignore that, because the reality is that different population groups behave differently and intelligence is largely genetic.
The amount of unearned help blacks get in the US is extreme.
Because most asians moved in voluntarily and to do that you had to have a lot of money compared to europeans. Generational wealth has a large effect.
@@tortture3519 this is so not true. Rich Asian immigrants in the US are a very new thing.
@@tortture3519 hmm. I hear this argument and it kind of makes sense and not at the same time. Extremely different currency values, war torn countries, centuries of colonialism. The difference in situation was freedom since post World War 2 at best. I understand there are institutional issues in America but it is a misnomer that most Asians move have a lot of money. If there are stats or links that prove my perception wrong I am happy to learn more.
This is what inherited wealth looks like for the top 20%,” Reeves said. “You don’t save your money and give it to your kids as a bequest. You spend it on your kids so they don’t need the bequest. It’s an upfront investment.”
But as universities tilt their admissions toward the wealthy, Reeves said, they aren’t just leaving talented low-income students behind. They’re also lifting mediocre rich students up. A 2005 study found that wealthy middle-schoolers with the lowest standardized test scores were more likely to graduate from college than poor middle-schoolers with the highest scores. Students with average SAT results are nearly six times more likely to be admitted to top-tier universities if their parents are alumni. One of Reeves’ studies found that 43% of the members of upper-class households had skills and intelligence that predicted lower incomes.
The 'Glass Floor' Is Keeping America's Richest Idiots At The Top - HuffPost
Sure, more resources definitely can give an individual an advantage. But I think culture also matters a lot though. I know many poor Asian families whose kids did well at school because of the emphasis they placed on education. Similarly, you see many children of celebrities couldn't care less about school despite having all the wealth to succeed.
It seems the real issue here is wealth inequality and not meritocracy. There is no doubt that better resources might lead to better scores. However, it doesn't mean that hard work and talent are irrelevant. It should be noted that not all rich kids get a perfect score and not all poor kids fail miserably. This shows that there are other factors at play apart from wealth/resources. Meritocracy is important because it provides an incentive to work harder. Overall, I feel serious steps should be taken to improve public schools and wealth distribution.
"You can't do the homework because the wifi is out." This hits differently after a year of crawling through remote "learning".
I know it's not apples to apples, but where I'm from my ethnicity (Chinese-Filipino) was treated as second rate citizens for 400 years yet the majority of the wealthiest families here now are Chinese-Filipino.
While the same can't be totally said in the US, Asian-Americans there have been discriminated against, surely, yet they're still finding ways to be the best compared to other ethnicities there. Why is that?
As a 1st gen college student, I really appreciate this take on education b/c the perpetual struggle that is put on you by society to constantly compete to survive can take a toll on your mental health
The stories of "rags to riches" or how anyone can get out of the hood through "hardwork" especially pisses me off, because as you said, now we look at those same kids who suffer from lack of opportunity and we tell them "well, ____ became successful, why can't you?"
A privileged kid born into a rich family favorite line: "If you just work harder, you'll be successful too."
Equal is not always fair. A person’s opportunity is heavily influenced by the lives their parents lived. So why should those who lived well be penalized for it? It’s on us while we are young to live better than those who came before us. That is how we become equal. That path is truly fair. I came from a single parent household, I didn’t do the best in grade school either but I still went to college. Granted, I went to a community college first then transferred to a four year after, I still made it, and graduated with honors. Being poor, being black, being from a broken house hold, or having terrible parents doesn’t keep you from being successful. It makes it harder yes. It makes it less likely sure, but those who keep on the path and keep faith will find success. America doesn’t promise fairness, but opportunity. What is fair anyway? I was poor, black, and from a broken home was that fair? Was life fair to me?!? If I was to believe this video I’d say no. No one has a perfect life. Are their easier lives sure, but anyone can make it. Meritocracy has truth to it.
So I'm basically sold on the negative argument that we don't have a meritocracy. But what I never hear is a positive argument for an alternative. Could you ever devise a system where people with more resources won't do better? And what trade-offs would be required to make that happen?
This! I’ve often wondered the same thing about measuring general intelligence. Could we ever devise a test that would eliminate disparate outcomes?
This sounds like advising that we look for ways that cause people we distrust to do worse rather than for us to strive harder. Sounds petty and counterproductive. Shame.
As far as I know, in Finland all schools are the same and are financed equally. Financed quite well, from a big part of country's budget. And all children go to these public schools. Be your parents the reachest in the country, your child will still go to a public school.
Not sure though if Finnish model is better than American one. Finland isn't the world economy leader, and doesn't have key impact on European politiques, while USA has all these perks. Is it because of education or other things - don't know
Yes it's called communism. Good luck.
No even in nature the more fortunate will do better. I don’t think we can create a way where everyone starts equal. The more fortunate will ALWAYs have a advantage. I think we can create a good baseline where the less fortunate can do good.
based off on how my country (not the US) looks at meritocracy, i'd say that i don't buy into meritocracy when it's preached by the elites
Meritocracy itself isn't the problem; lack of equal opportunity is. Some poorer communities in West Virginia, New York, and other states have to put up with spotty internet access, terrible public schools, a lack of extracurricular activities, and often times drugs and violence on the streets. Meanwhile, public schools in well-off neighborhoods tend to be much better. This problem doesn't discriminate based on race; poor people across all races face this problem.
But how can you have meritocracy and equal opportunity?
@@Hektagon7085 equal opportunity based upon merit
@Daniel Marveggio a good baseline. We can never make it equal it’s just nature. We just need to make sure everyone has the basics.
@@jairopavon11 A poor person will always have less opportunities than a rich one. So a meritocracy is an selffeeding loop. So you have not answered my question.
@@Hektagon7085You don't understand so let me spell it out for you. We simply can't. We are not born equal to begin with some are born smarter, taller, stronger, prettier, faster and etc... All we can say the weak need support but we shouldn't punish the strong.
Are you going to talk about racism towards Americans who are NOT white/black in this Glad You Asked Series? Asian-Americans? Latin-Americans? Native Americans? others?
This is episode 4 but no mention of other people yet. Hope you eventually publish videos about them too in the coming episodes! It would be timely.
Vox need to release that board game as merch STAT.
Or at least make the design printable on Community Members
Yessssssss
My perspective is everything can be reframed in terms of privilege. We have a society that rewards achievement, but makes achievement dependent on privilege. Therefore we actually reward privilege, just in an indirect way, which slowly but surely concentrates money and power upwards and creates safety for the people who get there.
I think the biggest common thread from this race series, is that race isn’t necessarily the issue in modern day. The largest issue is finances and wealth.
If you have money, whether it be self made or through family, you will have FAR more opportunities than your middle or lower class counterparts. It’s not necessarily a race issue, but rather an equity issue.
Yeah. And since many people whose ancestors were enslaved didn’t have a great foundation and lost the potential to make money for a while, it’s almost like they’re starting from nothing. My ancestors were from Nigeria, then taken to Virginia as slaves. My family historically had nothing bc slavery. And all those years were potential for growth. Everyone else just profited from the slavery and act like it never happened.
the US has an abhorrent history of putting up obstacles for people of color. this trauma trickles down into their offspring and shows up in factors such as lifespan and sat testing
Yes you are right but you’re skipping over a problem. In reality, the issue has ALWAYS been about finances and Wealth- lower income white Americans were also getting thrashed by the system. The thing is that while there were wealthy whites and poor whites, because of Slavery, there was never Wealthy blacks (in America) to begin with.
@@gabe1277This seems pretty generalizing of a statement.
@@gabe1277 Don't forget those freedmen who became wealthy enough to buy slaves themselves.
I have neither great wealth nor political power, but it genuinely seems to me that encouraging people to be great at something and rewarding them for it is good for their own life, their family, their community, and the world in general. This video title is kind of clickbait-y; the video wasn't about whether meritocracy is a myth but was more about the uneven distribution of opportunities and corruption that make meritocracy ineffective.
“Your big brother was shot.” That got dark real quick
Joke's on you, I don't have a brother :)
@@MisterTutor2010 not anymore
Finland has the highest test scores IN THE WORLD and they DON'T do test,barely have homework but they DO have equal opportunity schools.
Yeah, but the US has about 50 times more Nobel laureates than Finland. So..🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
@@ikerivers1795 on which they paid a lot for and had connections. 🤷♂️
@@scobedoo4535 OF COURSE!!!! Research NEEDS money. So Finland has the best scores. The USA still runs this🤔🤔😔🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
@@ikerivers1795 Nobel prize winners don't represent the population at large.
We definitely get tested in finland, all the time. In middle school the tests are spread out so that you have a test on a subject from every other week to one week. In high school there's weeks (each day you have a test) five times a year. The final exams in high school determine what universities you can get into.
It's a nice well researched episode and I totally agree with the fact that wealthy parents act as catalyst getting into good college but I would also like to point out that one should also look into child efforts. For examples Asian and Indians does not come from rich family background. Forget about wifi, they sometimes come from villages where there is no electricity but they still do better than white. So sometimes a hard work payoff too. If you see background of world renowned Indian their family background is not financially good but they still make up to best collages in USA and UK.
This makes me think of Kim K's statement about how women need to just get off their butts are work hard; but what I'm sure she now realizes isn't the miracle advice that will become the great equalizer. The perfect example of this is the "Rigged" game that was played in the clip.
Considering you could have 2 people go through the same exact program at a college with equal GPA - one at an elite school, the other at a state school and the state school grad would not be able to get in the door at companies that the elite grad would get into, the answer is yes for the most part.
Didn’t AsapScience do a video on why getting into an elite school may not necessarily matter?
Finally, someone is bringing this attention. Growing up in the NYC public school system, this is so apparent. I'd love to help out and be a part of this in any which way possible
uh... you can start by giving your money to low income kids around you
I can't believe that America is the richest country in the world, and a lot us never went to - or never will - go to college. This is just crazy.
Meritocracy is an ideal. The system we have hasn't reached it yet.
The underlying cause of most issues is socioeconomic inequality.
5:29 - 5:36 ...Yes that is how 99% of the world feels... those that are born in W-EU, Japan, S-Korea, even the US can consider themselves lucky... in some ways, unlucky in others...
I told someone meritocracy is like a guy with a bow and arrow can beat someone with a tank. They responded the guy with a bow and arrow still can win but if I feel that there is no chance they would put themselves in that position in the first place.
Meritocracy is like assuming everybody have the high ground and not on lava.
Whoever does the editing, that transition where the laptop opens is beautiful!
Yes, the answer to the title is yes. And even if society was a true meritocracy it would not be ideal for producing outcomes that are equitable.
Environment and Opportunity are what's amiss about the US education system.
I never give up. I keep pushing.
This video was greatly put. I would play Rigged over Monopoly any day!
It sounds like the issue is just segregation all over again. Only now it is for class instead of race.
This comes solely from the perspective of success in a corporatist consumerist lifestyle. There are many different lifestyles to persue. If you think a good life comes from wealth you will never be satisfied even when you obtain that wealth.
Meritocracy is a terrible tactic for resource distribution in situations where everyone is in it together, as we are as a nation.
Imagine that you are on a rapidly sinking ship with several holes in it. Say you're the captain and you find that one repair group (Group-X) is doing better than the other (Group-Y). Remember time is of the essence and fixing some holes only slows the sinking.
Do you send reinforcements to the 'successful' Group-X so that they can get even more done? That might be a good option, but what if the reason Group-X is doing better is just because the conditions faced by the Group-Y are much more difficult? In that case you should obviously reinforce Group-Y.
Even if the difference was that Group-X's members were more experienced it wouldn't make sense to reinforce them either as they don't need additional experienced members or even just additional hands, whereas both would help Group-Y.
This is just a simple analogy of course and no doubt it has holes of its own.
The point is, we should be doing everything we can to help struggling schools. Improve facilities. Add more teachers and staff, favoring the best qualified by offering higher pay and the social and professional recognition that these jobs are especially valued. Maybe send in tutors for students and offer resources to parents (daycare, preschool).
It is in all of our best long term interests that we all are prepared for a future together.
If we all need education, why do we need it to be a competition? That’s not even education at this point
Agreed. Competition is inherently destructive.
Because the best schools and companies have limited spots. People have to compete for those spots
"Meritocracy" when we don't all get the same education, access to the same diets, live with the same level of psychological safety, or even face remotely similar challenges?
I’m so excited for this whole season. These are very important topics that need to be discussed. Editing, research, mixing etc are as always, top notch.
We would all have so much more of what matters if we helped each other.
Cooperation is better than competition.
Evaluate your results, if not satisfactory, work harder. Repeat until results improve to the level you want.
Meritocracy, by definition, ranks an individual within a cohort, therefore, having the effect of differentiating amongst said individuals and thus at odds with notions of equality.
No state intervention is also called giving a blind eye
Imagine what America would look like if EVERYONE got a chance...
Caste system in India is worse
To my inner child: it's not that you're not as smart as the rest, it's that you don't have the same opportunities.
Good points were made by this video. As a NYC parent, watching this new lottery system where grades don’t count does not make sense. So, I educated my kids with summer school, after school, online courses and workbooks (all free or budgeted) for nothing. Hard work is cheating. Pushing my kids that education is the key to success. How does grades not count for education? I’m sure most people would want their doctors tested and have good grades. Is that also common sense?
Let me know when you drop the game board! I'd love to play this with teenagers when they mature enough to understand the concept.
Is this issue more to do with race or with wealth opportunity? I know of plenty of wealthy colored folks who are doing very well for themselves because of their wealth which I applaud their parents for, and I see many white kids suffering from many setbacks (unable to pay medical bills, unable to finish school work because they're working to support their parents or taking care of their siblings).
How much direct impact does race still play today and how much is correlation between skin color and childhood economic standing?
Edit and Disclaimer: this comment is not meant to make incidents of racial bias any less relevant, I really don't wanna come across as hateful, I just want to know what others think about this.
imagine growing up in a third world country, how the hell do you get motivation and willingness to study? you just want to die or run away from your neighborhood
That board game just made me sad, even though I am not playing.
It's rigged
Well for someone from Europe, US is far far away from meritocracy. In Europe i can guarantee system is more fair then in US. In Serbia it doesn't matter if you are black, white or whatever, we all go to public schools. Everything depends of a teacher or a professor. Later on highschools and Universities are also public and your chance really depends from your effort, not from you place of residence or social status. In US they don't like to say or admit but meritocracy is more possible in social democracy or even communist systems.
Nonsense. You’re from Europe stop with the misinformation about the US. The Asians earn more than whites how is that possible?
But it’s also possible that the government only gives benefits to Serbian citizens or ethnic Serbs with the growing rise of the European right.
2 million views, but only 200 comments? Who’s poor job is it to daily delete comments like this one I’m writing?
Really insightful look into the creaks and cracks of the educational system
Why are all of these questions so click-baity and un-nuanced? I subscribed to vox for quality nuanced topics.
Asking this question is like asking "is communism a myth? 😱" No. You should ask "does our ideas of meritocracy hold water?" Or "how can we improve our meritocratic systems?"
This resonates so much in many problems & aspects we filipino students struggle to trek success.
Meritocracy? In the U.S education system? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂lmaooooo
I still believe in the American Dream, that’s why I’m moving to Chile 🇨🇱.
Well. My parents moved here from Benin with 76USD in their pockets they achieved from selling things. Now they both are mentally stable, make over 100k (approx) and have nice families and live in a safe place. The American dream is exaggerated, but you guys just bash it because you expect too much out of the country. You question what it can give you, instead of what you can give it.
LoL 😅
Oh ya meritocracy in the US capitalist society and education system is a joke. I do wish they explored meritocracy in other communities and settings such as the open source community, which have championed the ideals of meritocracy where they only cared about your code submissions while still making the scene extremely accessible.
What country does code admission?
Excellente chaîne à diffuser le plus largement possible.
I really love the intro music they used, it sounds so familiar yet I have no idea what it is.
I think it's a lot like the music from Return of the Obra Dinn.
Very enlightening video. It has helped prepare me for many conversations to come. Thank you.
I am pleasantly surprised by these comment section.
Meritocracy : Capitalism's favorite lie
Really great video, amazing points and I’m glad you touched on how you managed to do well yourself but many people don’t and can’t make it, love from the UK.
Fair doesn't mean equal. Pain and struggle are our greatest lessons to be better. Now I show my kid do better not walk like I did.
So funny how Americans talk about testing while growing up in China we took small tests weekly, monthly and big exams twice a semester, got ranked not only amongst your peers in your class but also in your district. I think we take 100 tests probably every school year lol Being able to test for SAT & apply for colleges not fully based on score was already my escape from meritocracy toxicity.
That vocal fry guy though. With a voice like that, he should've won that game.
This is a wonderful series, and it's great to see what is basically à Think Tank of Young People, picking at difficult questions in society.
Equity of chance, equality in treatment, that should be the way to go. Sadly it's not the case in the good ol' USA. Merit in itself is something that must be valued, but in a way that everyone under the same conditions (hence equity) gets a good chance of proving themselves and if not able to prove themselves, they still get good opportunities (enough to get the education that'll lead to a successful life). Not to forget the ability to take the good chance more than one time. It doesn't help that education is so costy there either.
Is this game sold somewhere? It makes valuable conversation for game nights.
Well yes, meritocracy is a myth but, the current system is still the best system of equality we have so far. Although there are many system that in theory would be better, in reality those system requires resources that is by far unavailable. And it requires a balance that is impossible to achieve with such a great level of human greed. Take the Soviet Union for an example, although Lenin intend on making a land of endless opportunity, in the end he created the most imfamous dystopia in history. And Stalin ended up taking it over and create a cult of personality due to his greed. Okay maybe let's take a less harsh example, Lebanon. What used to be the most promising Arab country, even at one point it's capital is called "The Paris of the east", is now just a hot mess due to difference in religion and human greed.
Truth is... The game is rigged from the start.
Okay. Where can I get this game? LOL 👍🏽 Brilliant.
Such a thorough and insightful series
What is the GOALPOST here? The more I delve into politics and economics, the less I understand what we are aiming for. Do we want everyone to score the same on tests? That's unrealistic. Do we want everyone to have the same income? That's socialism, which doesn't work.
They explicitly said the same opportunities, where the same combination of talent and skill allows excess to the same opportunities, as it supposedly works currently but in actuality doesn’t.
loving this season!
TL;DW, the guy who coined the term was being sarcastic and didn't think people would be stupid enough to embrace it. So yes, yes it is a myth.
Meritocracy is a myth. It's all about connections and luck.
I urge you to look into meritocracy it was first advocated from plato and aristotle. This is only one side of the coin.
It's rigged.
Wow, this is truly eye opening. Thank you for sharing this important message.
She and her sister both speak "normally".
I.e. they don't say "baffroom" "axe" etc.
I, as a European, personally don’t believe that the American (and in my views quite extreme) version of capitalism is compatible with a true Meritocracy.
I always have to laugh when I hear my friends at the other side of the pond rage about any political proposal that’s not downright immoral 😛
Who determines what is and isn’t moral?
Meritocracy is a problem in Black and Asian communities. "Get every accolade, certificate, and honor. Don't be good enough, be 1000× better than good enough, and then some... or you're unworthy"
So I didn’t get good grades because I studied and sacrificed, I got it because I was somehow privileged
This series is amazing and really educational. Great job discussing these issues. Just out of curiosity last season there were a few science videos which I found great, are any such episodes in the works or was that unique to the first season?
In my country (Brazil) meritocracy is a joke.
Short answer: yes, kinda.
Long answer: lol, definitely.
On what basis did the rigged game determined that being the son of lawyers would make start 3 steps ahead vs 2 steps under another circumstance ?
The way my public education has worked has always been based upon where you lived. Which means I never went to great schools as someone who has always lived well below the poverty line and as a Latina
Maybe do something similar overseas, as racism is probably a bigger issue in the more conservative East and Arabia then the relatively liberal West
#StopAsianHate
Meritocracy is unrealistic, that's why positive action is needed.
the key to success is being born to a rich family.
Finding out the SAT was created by a pro-eugenics guy is not surprising. Our testing system has a very eugenics mindset to it.