A friend has one of these. For a do it all frame, you have to run a 23mm tyre in the back. How the fuck did any of the shill reviewers skim over that? Bike media wankers all spunking into a common gravy boat. Yuck.
These telemarketers are so unintelligent that they can barely read the brochure, don't expect them to actually bother to estimate the tyre clearance using a caliper or, god forbid, to try mounting several tyres to see which of them fit. Most of them probably have "righty tighty lefty loosey" notes next to their hex keys and screwdrivers so as to not be confused.
This was actually my frame and I ran 26mm tyres with plenty of room. Could have possibly run 28's I guess it shows the variation in the frames they were sending out.
@@Andy7846 not sure which bowman, palace i think it was, but we couldn't feasibly fit bigger than a 23mm conti (measured 25+) without rub from wheel flex. A 25mm conti would touch the brake bridge!
"The most dangerous frame I have seen to date" that is literally the most damming certification that can be awarded in the cycling industry isn't it haha.
Great video as per. Thanks Hambini. So, as an Engineer - and I was a welding inspector before that - three main thoughts: 1) Never buy a bike from a company that isn't led by Engineers - witness what happened to Mercedes for a decade or so when the accountants and hipster salespeople ran the place 2) Most of the cycling media is just warmed over advertising nonsense 3) The number of bikes with catastrophic failures is a disgrace, it would never be tolerated in cars. These bikes could kill people - we really need some cycle construction law(s) - but then the UK government doesn't contain a single Engineer so don't hold your breath...
Kudos for calling this out. Received one of their WEALD frame-sets and sent it back as had never seen a worse attempt at welding two triangles together in my life. Dozens of these are popping up new on eBay so consider reporting the items under the product safety heading.
Here’s the thing as a consumer. We don’t have access to the tools that our 5 year old have to look into whether the frame we buy are going to put our lives at risk. Heck, we’re not suppose to in the first place but it almost feels like we have to take it upon ourselves to call out Brands and manufacturers for their shoddy quality. This video make me very appreciative when we get to see tear down of products that shed more light of what we’re getting ourselves into
Hambini says "penetration" only 11 times in this video. He starts with 2 mentions at 11:00, then one at 14:50 and then 8 times after 18:15 - which is why I thought he uses that word a lot. But every time it made sense. Once he called it "fusion".
"frame can collect water" Bowman can return with a new marketing 'scheme'. Sell these frames to the Third World to collect water in the villages, AND to Survival Kits! 😂😂
Mr Arthur and the bike journalists strike again lol!!. Unfortunately these days it's not just bowman it's half the bloody industry!. Make as cheap as possible sell for as much as possible quality control out the window completely. It's amazing what a good paint job can cover up!. Thank you to Hambini and all you guys and girls who sent pics in etc. If people like you didn't speak up about shit manufacturing nothing would change. I was a welder for over 30 years in the oil industry and manufacturing and believe me I have seen a lot of shit like this!. These days time is money and company's are only interested in the amount of frames produced screw the quality!. Same with carbon fibre that can be equally as bad it's a case of are you feeling lucky lol?. A big shout out to companies who still care time. Look. And various others curses to those who don't see previous Hambini episodes!. Curses also to journalists who basically tell us shit just to get free stuff etc. It is us poor bastards who pay the price.
The journalistic side of the cycling industry has always been kinda fake. "company gave me a 1 hour test ride on a bike and I rate its reliability 5 stars". if anything they are actually better now than they used to be. The integrity of these new manufacturers has gone through the floor though. If specialised bought off a review (***example, not accusation), it would be to claim its the best, fastest, coolest thing since sliced bread, and the worst case is that it isn't. Even when Gardin was lying about the tubing they used and put fake columbus SLX stickers on, the bike was still made correctly. These new pop up "trading companies" who sell direct sight unseen make me worry for safety now. So many seem to either sell bad products (at premium prices) or do not stand behind their products.
I am an engineer too with a welding background. I'm normally a bit skeptical of Hambini's 'roastings' as I think he is a bit over judicious in applying aerospace standards to non-aerospace components (bike frames anyway) or perhaps its the need to sensationalize for the sake of TH-cam hits. However in this case, Hambini did not need to exaggerate as the manufacturing quality is truly abysmal. The standard of the welding is about what I would expect on a Walmart $100 bike. It would be good to have seen some of the cut joints polished so the welds extents can be identified. I suspect the tubes had not been mitered to cut the cost of manufacture; mitering is normal practice in order to control the weld penetration through to the root. I note the bike boxes said that the frames were hand welded. In the hands of an expert welder welds can be good and consistent. In this case I suspect the frames were built in a small 'jobbing' shop in Twain and they were hand welded because the numbers they produce are not worth investing in automated welding (robots) equipment and rely on semi-skilled welders to keep the costs down. Personally - give me a 'robot' welded frame any day over a human welded frame - as long as the welding engineers know how to set things up the welding will be consistent from frame to frame. th-cam.com/users/FiveMinuteVelo
Hello, I used to work in welding robotics. I could never understand why manufacturers are still using hand welding for bike frames? And China buy more Japanese robots than the US and EU put together?
Sadly the mass producing factory actually turning out all this crap into the industry is probably still in business. If it's not branded as Bowman, then it will be some other over marketed rubbish. 😔
Those welds are horrendous. I was trained as a micro-miniature electronics repair tech (soldering) and one of my instructors used to make fun of us when we did a very bad job soldering. He would say "The larger the blob, the better the job" was not a good guideline for soldering. It appears the "welder" of that frame thought it was!
I have a lovely 20 year old aluminum GT ZR3.0 which was a tight fit for a 25mm tire on the rear, I wanted to run 28mm, contacted Bowman and asked and they confirmed that their Palace R would not fit 28mm tires so I dodged a bullet there. Took my frame to a frame builder and he moved the rear brake bridge to accept larger than 28mm tires, couldn't be happier.
Neil Webb was one of the inspirations for starting my own bike company, ironic that he may further inspire what NOT to do. But it does highlight the perils in focusing on marketing over sound engineering and manufacturing.
It takes years, sometimes decades, to establish the brand through quality. Many famous brands built their reputation through quality and customer loyalty. Personally I'm not a fan of bike company sponsoring a team or an athlete because it creates a bias for perceived quality.
Marketing takes flash, spiel, smoke and mirrors. Engineering takes actual skills. Given the owner's background it's obvious why they went for the 'sell them first, worry about them later' business strategy..
Great video as always in the usual no-nonsense Hambini style! This is probably the worst workmanship seen on a bike sold in the UK. There are so many defects that something is bound to fail pretty quickly resulting in a very dangerous situation for the rider. I actually contemplated buying one of these frames (The Palace 3c) 18 months ago as they had a real appeal for an old school guy like me: threaded BB, rim brakes, nice classic geometry, etc. but there was a few comments starting to surface in bike forums about the frame poor alignment so I decided to buy a second hand CAAD12 instead. Wise move in retrospect. We all know that bike reviews are biased (I rub your back, you rub my back type of business) and the whole cycling industry is driven by marketing not engineering. However, such a poor level a workmanship raises many questions. How could such a sub-standard product gain the UK Product Safety standard (or CE certification)? Or was the frame submitted to UKCA different from the ones sold in the UK? How could someone miss so many defects? Surely Bowman Cycles must have been aware of the quality issues and, if so selling bikes with known defects is totally irresponsible. You are talking of possible risk of death or serious injuries. I know the company has folded but hopefully an investigation can still take place. There should be a product recall . Hambini, keep up the good work!
Loving the frame cut ups! No escaping crap on display with those. More of cut ups please. Will be interesting when you finally come across some decent ones!
Wow, these frames are a class action lawsuit waiting to happen! Cycling media companies should probably research who they're dealing with before taking money to promote a company... or at the very least inspect the test bike before it's built up.
With few exceptions, enthusiast media are always keen to take the money first and ask questions later - if there are any questions to ask. What the general public may not know is that, when it comes to enthusiast media - whether it's cycling, motorbikes, darts, etc. - what is presented in front of the camera or on the page is usually the result of a publisher's ad sales department, not the editors or presenters. If something bad or unfortunate happens - such as a product that's been poorly designed or manufactured - seldom are any media outlets held accountable if there's litigation of any kind. Media hide behind the shield of editorial integrity and such as if they were a member of the legitimate press - which they aren't. And so the manufacturer is left out to spin in the wind for playing the game and letting it get the best of them.
It’s sad to see there really is no place for technical editors in cycling media these days but imho the entire category is functionally obsolete. Guy who we know nothing about gets a prepared bike for a week (rarely do they show critical power #s, race results, ride data etc) Rides it in the south of France or wherever, and somehow he can really comment on the durability, build quality, or in depth on the characteristics of the bike (and of course the characteristics are always overwhelming improvements). Guy who review the bike also works for a company who sells Ad space to bike companies. See the conflict? May have made sense back in the day before the internet but I’d trust a forum long before I’d trust something like cycling weekly or bike radar. Heck I do the aforementioned before I buy a car, it’s amazing how all those professional reviewers skipped over how much of pain in the ass doing an oil change on the Tacoma is for a home mechanic. Considering it’s the most frequent maintenance item an owner would do you’d think it would be relevant.
@RollinRat Virtually all marketing is BS; there is little profit in telling 100% truth. The bike biz is guilty of mixing marketing and journalism, but the automotive industry here in the US has been guilty of much, much worse over the decades.
I am really concerned at watching this. I had a dreadful accident on my PalaceR on Hardknott Pass when the bike developed a huge speed wobble. I really thought I was about to die! Horrendous. The crash was bad but it could have been far worse. I put it down to rider error. Now I am really concerned that my frame was responsible in part and it could happen again.
I did Hardknott last year on my Motorbike............THAT was bad enough, no way would I attempt that on a cycle, the condition of the road surface is absolutely criminal, as are many other areas, Trough of Bowland etc.
Out of interest are you aware of any misalignment on your frame? on my palace 3 front wheels it a tiny bit off to the right i.e. its not aligned with the back wheel. I've checked it with another wheel to confirm
@@crimson177 I hadn't seen any but I have been really shocked by this video and some of the comments about the frame. My crash was caused by a speed wobble which I could not explain. Now that I see the lack of quality regarding the frame build it makes more sense. My crash was near fatal which is quite chilling really.
I've got a Bowman palace R. It's a stunning bike, really fun to ride. I got sucked in by the marketing, but honestly it didn't disappoint. I've put 14k+ km on it, cycled multiple gran fondos. Bowman used to post videos of trips to witness manufacturing points in Taiwan. I really liked the look of the Palace 3, but I couldn't justify the purchase since I already had the Palace R... Turns out to have been for the best. It's really sad to see how Bowman flared out. I can only speculate what went wrong, but I suspect poor decisions by the manufacturer coupled with the inability to travel to Taiwan for QC due to COVID restrictions. I guess they were too small to be able to financially weather the storm.
Black palace R here, great frameset for sure. Sad to see them go, definitely believe there is a market for threaded bb affordable alu frames with a racey geo.
I recently finished building up a Weald frame with GRX components. It’s a beautiful looking bicycle and rides so nicely and I’m very happy with the bike. Of course I won’t be if the bicycle cracks in half but we’ll see if that happens. I previously purchased a Pilgrims disc frames slightly too small I had intended to put for sale on eBay but it seems now it may just sit in the closet.
I also purchased the black/lt. blue Palace R frameset in 2020. Also sucked in by the marketing. Never even bothered to look at the welds from the inside. I still ride it with no issues, and the BB and head tube alignment "seemed" ok during the build (DA 9000 cranks spun freely after installation). 25mm Gatorskins on Eurus wheelset with decent clearance. I rode it yesterday (4/11) and during the ride it occurred to me that I should check the fork steerer tube for no other reason than curiosity. Then I watched this video. Now I better strip it down and take a peek inside at the weld points. The price was right, they shipped to the US quickly, and everything seemed spot-on. I hope I got lucky.
@@bluefishblitz9577 I looked as much as I could inside the frame at the welds on my 2019 Bowman Pilgrims Disc and pretty much they were exactly as in this video. I’m wondering though if what we’re looking at is brazing rather than welding, and there’s no penetration because there’s not supposed to be. If many hundreds of frames and bicycles were sold like this and they’re all supposedly deadly, then where are all the broken bones? I am 220 pounds for god sakes pounding across typical urban rutted roadways. No visible cracks or damage of any kind on my bike. (Knocking wood nonetheless).
I had a Palace 3 disc and was happy with it up until this week. Just under 9000km under a 61kg rider and both chainstays have cracked through at the same place. Fortunately found in the shop rather than at 70km/hr down a mountain.
I had a cheap P-ecks steel track frame that didn't look entirely dissimilar to this. Seat tube failed and it was heavy 4130. Run around on warranty and gave up eventually. For years the tame cycling press shilled them too.
Could you cut up a frame from a more reputable manufacturer for reference? Without that we don’t really now how much this frame differs from the industry standard.
A good fender setup works amazingly well in the wet. Your feet and ass will stay dry and even chain will stay a lot cleaner, and the the front stays are in the right place where the fender doesn't lock up the front wheel when hit by debris or something in the spokes. Cut up an old water bottle or something to make a flexible front mud flap that gets close to the ground in front to be completely amazed how pleasant a rain ride can be. As far as classic aluminum, it's all many riders need, there are fewer safety concerns with correctly welded aluminum vs complex inspection of CF, aluminum tends to last longer, sometimes forever (Cannondale black lightning), usually easier to identify cracks before a critical failure, failures often give warnings, 100% RECYCLABLE, nontoxic in environment, no fossil fuel material, NO MICROPLASTICS pollution. Just my opinion but for daily use, polished aluminum is just cool. Also much less of a theft concern, damage concern, taking racks or a trailer, etc. Remember, bikes are also supposed to be better transportation than cars and trucks. It's not just about competition. Everyone gets a little older and slower eventually. Aluminum feels appropriate and has class at that point. Old racers never die, they just go back to riding aluminum. 😆
It's not really fair to compare a $36 frame like this to high end carbon. What? Oh. Here's a bit of bike factory background for you all: A top tier bare aluminium hard tail frame, for kona or santa cruz for example costs about $90 - $150 usd at the factory. Min orders vary from 100 to 1000 units depending on if you need custom forgings or hydroformed shapes. The prices may have changed with supply issues, but this is the baseline. They really just don't cost much. Mid grade consumer frames, like my GT Pantera are $50-$60 usd, from lower tier but still reputable factories. My GT has the slightly offset head machining - it is post machined, to get around weld deformations, but there's a point where its out of spec and should be rejected. Mine is fine, but of course, it also has real welds... Walmart / crappy tire bike frames can cost $10-$20 usd and you would still demand correct welding out of them because walmart doesn't take kindly to being sued. Heavy, low grade, low performance to be sure, but still fucking welded together. The reason a santa cruz chameleon then is $999usd is not the cost of the bare welded frame. The fancy paint adds a bit (a lot some times), and then you pile on insurance and liability, shipping, warehousing, warranty stock, engineering and testing (cause they actually do that), marketing, race team expenses, sponsorships, taxes and other overhead. Only then do you get to santa cruz's markup, then the distributors markup, then the retail stores markup. Smaller suppliers will avoid many of those costs, but they can pay a fortune for insurance, $100+ per bike sometimes. Nukeproof can sell the scout - a more or less same frame for about half the price because they strip a lot of those costs away, but it's still $500usd, not $90. Most of the price is not the bare frame. Those carbon forks only run about $60-$80 as well. Even columbus futura forks are well under $200usd to the factory. (Even those el cheapo Chinese carbon frames Hambini has been showing only run about $200 a pop, plus about $3000 per mold size) As you can see, If the cheapest frame is $10, and the expensive one is $150, and your retail prices are set to be in the $700usd range like this Bowman was, there is absolutely no excuse not to spec and sell the best frame you can get made. I could easily start a company tomorrow and sell 1000 frames direct for $700usd, buying the nicest frame caribou can make me, insuring myself, paying my staff, renting a storage facility, doing a little marketing and paying my 3 series lease... and come out rather well. There zero excuse for a badly made frames. ZERO. In the end, There's lots of ways to fail at selling bikes. Right now you can't get any parts, that's legit, but your frames should still be perfect. You could be a complete moron at running a business, but your frames should still be perfect. You could fall for the idea of buying up them $10 frames and hawking them en mass for $199 then losing your shit. I can excuse that kind of naivete, I cannot excuse a bad frame at a premium price. A dangerous frame is criminal. Literally. Just ask Rocky Mountain :)
Bowman claims that the frame is made in Taiwan, it looks like the trash I've seen in mainland China. I've never seen anything so poorly made in Taiwan, maybe I'm wrong, Rocky Mountain had it's frames made in Taiwan for years. Was there some controversy around Rocky Mountain? Bicycles are way overpriced generally. Ridiculous prices, for a product almost entirely made offshore. Bit of a scam.
@@CrapKerouac taiwan vs china vs vietnam (my GT) vs canada (the rocky in question) has nothing to do with it. The bowman in this video is not acceptable from anywhere. The rocky mountain story is near 30 years old at this point, other people who were in the canadian bike industry in the 90's probably know it and can correct me if I've blended it with some other story in my head. Basically head tube on a vertex(?) came off due to bad welding/heat treating, rider was impaled by the downtube. Rocky apparently did a LOT to ensure the rider was taken care of because they knew this accident could make their company go away. Point is, even the best builders fuck up, and those fuckups can literally kill someone. YOU DO NOT BUILD UNSAFE FRAMES! This isn't the typical hambini "oh this bike isn't perfect to spec so its crap", this bike should never have been sold (It never should have gotten to paint).
Why don't you do this? I'd buy one. BSA, 27.2mm post, band-on front derailleur, external cabling, raw aluminium finish with a clear coat. Maybe some subtle hydroforming where it make sense to do so. Endurance geometry with clearance for 35mm (measured) tyres.
@@thedownunderverse Can't get any parts :P I actually do have a design I want to build (the reason I know all this shit), but I am nowhere near ready to commit to it. As I said it's one thing to drop $100k to commission 1000 top notch frames, it's another to get people to buy them, and yet another to support them properly afterwards.
The chainstay failure indicates to me, that the frame was not heat treated. On steel frames this is no problem, but on crap aluminium frames this is a problem. Look at the place of the failure. Right behind the bottom bracket where the frame should be flexible, but it is hardened because of welding. A bad welder also means a lot of heat input. The more heat you put in, the bigger the weld impacted zone becomes. The bigger the chance of failure. There is a reason not a lot of custom frame builders use aluminium....
A thought provoking video which highlights serious safety issues. That frame is a death trap. I do wonder what qualifies some journalists to be described as 'The Technical Editor'. Have they got the required technical background or are they just churning manufacturers technical spec? They are are in a position of influence and therefore need to consider the consequences of what they write.
I doubt they have a relevant technical qualifications to be a credible technical editor. Like you said, they're just churning manufacturer's tech specs. Think about it. Do they even make decent OBJECTIVE reviews based on build quality or stress & wear test result? No, they just make SUBJECTIVE reviews of how the ride feels with adjectives such as how fast, how comfortable, or how aero. Only objective review I see is light weight, but that's pointless if the rest of the bike is in poor quality.
You have to check titanium "premium frames" from Van Nicholas. The one I rode had a vertical misalignment of 10 mm between the rear dropouts... Some nice welding as well :)
I had a Palace R a few years ago, rear end geometry all of of whack, skipped all over the place when putting power down. Got a warranty replacement and sold it. Shame, really wanted to support a ‘British’ bike brand
Re chainstay failure: it could be through lack of stress relief through annealing, but I reckon it might be heat affect from that (wonky) reinforcement bridge. Too much welding in a small area. The heat affected zone might also be away from the internal butting. Just a thought.
Curious why the random plug for Waltly? I do have a Waltly Ti frame and rode it recently on a long gravel race and it was perfect, but I don't have the technical expertise to assess the frame weld quality. I just built it up and rode it. What a relief to hear they, at least through hearsay, do things right.
I've a 2 year old Bowman Palace R that has, fortunately for one reason or another, not had much use since Covid arrived. It's probably done about 1,000 miles so basically as good as new. And given what we are now aware of (thanks H), clearly good as new doesn't mean much. I've taken the liberty of stripping the forks, bearings, bottom bracket and seat post down to get a look at the internal frame tube surfaces: something I was barely conscious of when I built the frame up. However I did qualify as a welder a long time ago; not coded, but I know enough to be dangerous. I wanted to gauge whether the earlier bikes might be tarnished with the same brush as the later batches. They can. I'm currently uploading a short video on my quick diagnosis. Almost no weld penetration, as Hambini already highlighted. And in the heat affect zone, where there should have been weld penetration, there are visible hairline cracks marking the radius of the top and bottom tube and their join to the head tube. So, long story short; I wont be riding that bike again. I got burnt. I got suckered in by the media coverage and wanted to support the little, local company. Given almost nothing is made in the UK anyway, I don't feel inclined to do that at all now and I will steer clear of the pop-up UK brands selling marketing rather than UK product. If you want, Hambini, I'll post the link on here. Cheers for the heads-up. Not something you want to find out about, but better to know.
Yep please post the link, just be aware that TH-cam may remove your message if you do. I'm not sure why they do it, but if they do just ping me an email and i'll circulate it
I have one of the first Pilgrims frames from 2016. It’s got a stupid pressfit BB that’s clicking constantly and the rear brake bridge that holds the mudguard is a piece of 3D printed crap. But, the build isn’t that bad. I love the geometry and the way it rides. Done thousands of miles on it without issue. Saying that, after watching this video, I’m ordering a Mason. I recently found a Weald on ebay but sent it back. It wasn’t straight but the main thing was that the fork steerer was so undersized the compression ring couldn’t grip it. I broke a stem trying to tighten it. They didn’t deserve to stay in business but what about the frames out there that are death traps?
When you can still find well thrashed GT zaskars still going strong and many other Aluminium bike frames you have to wonder. There's different grades of weld and you have the less critical standard for tack welding of non load bearing ornamental products etc. I did some Aluminium tig welding on a personal interest college course years ago and i remember the tutor talking about the different wire grade, preheated and post treated before and after welding for certain applications. They even xray some welds especially for pressure vessels and mil spec. I suspect that this frame was knocked up on the mainland by a low level company. I've got a 650b alloy frame, Made in China and it was hammered to hell and back and still true. A decent owner would have cut up a sample frame and had it scanned before doing a production contract. I don;t know what the consumer laws in the UK say about selling frames as it can be quite a grey area with low volume sales. Most countries have to submit and show that a bicycle is safe to use, fit for purpose and a standards sticker is affixed to the seat tube. Maybe low volume frame and forks don't need to get compliances. I like David Arthur and if i was him i'd be choosing his friends wisely as this malarkey could be unfavourable especially if he's endorsed such crap.
I own one of these and this is so dismaying and infuriating. I bought a Palace:R when Cannondale denied my warranty on my Super Six Evo which was out of alignment and had wheel rub/shifting issues that got worse over time as the dropouts wore into a more asymmetrical condition. The Palace:R cracked on the drive side chainstay after 3 years 28,000 miles and they warrantied with a Palace 3:C. Whole process was bizarre they agreed to send me a frameset, then went radio silent for a month and wouldn’t give me an update (at the time I had an opportunity to buy one of the last rim brake Allez Sprints go through my fingers) luckily the frameset did show up and has been fine but I have a -18% grade near my house that I regularly descend at >50mph and it’s terrifying to think what could happen if one of these tubes separated. Thanks for exposing this absolute shit industry, it’s outrageous how much stuff I’ve bought that is expensive but poorly made and the companies who make it take almost no responsibility. Oddly enough does anyone know of a good aluminum or entry priced carbon frame with similar geo to this? It may be made like shit but holy fuck this bike is actually amazingly stable in descents.
look at italian manufacturers, a lot of them still produce more entry level aluminium and carbon frames with the traditional italian race geometry of larger fork rake, longer chainstays. That is what gives the steering input more weight and slows down the responsiveness. Dedacciai are a good example.
this reminds me of the Klein Mountainbikes which were boutique welded by people who love their jobs at first and after being bought up by trek you could see the quality drop in welds as well as finishing. when the flex in the material is strong enough to make the coating have gaps in places next to welds it for sure is a cheapo creapo money maker with a lovely brand name on it. so if you consider buying a vvintage klein frame, make sure it´s not blue and produced after 96.
Those old Kleins were legendary. Never knew what became of them. Effing Trek. What the hell did Trek ever make of note back then other than the Y-frame?
Wow, what a piece of shite frame that somebody dares to sell as a respectable piece of kit. That said, the cycling press's handling of these sort of things is a very longtime practice as part of the overall consumer enthusiast media (virtually all outdoor sports, including motos, bicycles, etc.) that has gone on for *decades.* The reason why constantly positive press is published is to 1.) keep encouraging new participants in whatever sport or activity that's being promoted; and 2.) to make money, especially from small companies or manufacturers, no matter how good or bad their products may be (and there have been a few small companies over the years that made some very outstanding products, but died because of the overwhelming floods of copies, etc.). And the enthusiast media industry overall wants to be in a position to reap the monetary benefits it thinks it's owed when the next Trek or Specialized emerges. The danger of this is when a company collapses under its own BS when it creates a horrible POS, even though the press gleefully promotes the hell out of it. Classic example of this was when Cannondale decided to make motocross bikes over 20 years ago, which forced the company into bankruptcy because the product was shite - despite showers of positive press from certain motorcycle press, a move because Cannondale most likely purchased heavy amounts of advertising in said press's magazines. Aside from that, while it may be unbelievable that a supposedly "respectable" bike company would churn out such poorly made product, I think the most likely answer to this is if said company purchased "seconds" from whoever made the frames for them. That, or the frame manufacturer misrepresented the quality of its product. To me, these can be the only two logical answers. Because who in their right mind would want to take a bunch of obviously shite frames/bikes and sell them as quality product? Unless they didn't give a crap, which, if so, would take this atrocity to a wholly different level altogether. So, there are two scenarios here: The brand's frame manufacturer lied about how its frames were made, or the brand knew the frames were crap. A situation this bad can't happen unless the possibility of subterfuge is involved.
Even if the frame manufacturer is at fault, so too is the marketer since it's their brand name at stake and they should be doing due diligence. So in that case it's still massive incompetence at the very least if not actively malicious.
If you put your name on a product then the onus is on you to select a reputable manufacturer who doesn't cut corners and to perform your own due diligence, for example by getting a third party to perform QA/QC. Anything less is simply being irresponsible or negligent
I don’t buy the idea that the marketer is faultless if the manufacturer lies about the quality. I bought a Bowman and paid more than what I would have paid for an open mould frame and part of the reason I did was because it had some semblance of name brand behind it (as well as fabulous reviews). I’m not stupid and I know that our boy Neil isn’t over there in Taichung welding up the frame’s himself but I assume a registered brand would do basic QC/QA checks on the product they order in. If they’d gone belly up because the supplier sent them shit frames that they pulled for safety reasons (essentially unsellable inventory) then I’d shed a tear but they had to know these things going out were not up to spec.
@@philipk4475 Here in the US, if you purchase a container of bikes, frames, etc. from a manufacturer in Taiwan or China, and your brand name is on the product - *you* are the manufacturer of record. So, any problems, defects, etc., that arise come down on your shoulders, not the supplier on the other side of the world. This is especially the case if the federal government gets involved, then it can be very bad news if you're ordered to make a recall and take everything back.
Wow. That is shocking. I have seen lots of poor welds on department store bikes but this is next level. I would like to see a deep dive on the Vaast magnesium frame. Lots of great claims. Lots of wonderful reviews from usual suspects. But what is the reality? I’m trying to decide between a Vaast and one of the carbon frames you’ve reviewed and found to be pretty good, maybe even great for the price.
It sucks because for every mid box brand like this there is one like state that is trying to give you something functional for the dollar that is good platform to upgrade
That craftsmanship is so piss poor it's unbelievable. I have just recently started building frames as a hobby. By no means do I consider myself accomplished or capable of making a product I would feel comfortable selling, but everything I have made so far is miles ahead of this. All of these mistakes just send a clear message that the manufacturer does not care.
Agreed, it’s inconceivable a professional reviewer who’s seen hundreds of bikes could miss key details in the construction like shown here. Which leaves him buying into the Emperor’s New Clothes bullshit of Bowman’s marketing. Either way, atrocious work.
I am a welder and also a welding inspector. Yes, this is a bad frame bad alignment, and some burn through in there .But I want to say If the weld size enough , full penetration in not necessary in fillet weld .The Specialized flame is butt weld ,they are different with fillet weld, butt weld need full penetration, but fillet weld not. even a high end flame you will not see full penetration in fillet weld, but they may be double weld make it stronger.
Interestingly, one of the cheapest semi-decent road bikes you can buy right now is nicely welded. We have a Decathlon RC520 here, no complaints. Looks exactly like the pics on their website.
The big suppliers have to be much more careful. Decathlon has had a lot of frame recalls for frame failures but I guess you have to link that to their very low load ratings which I'm sure many people exceed. They typically have a total load of 100kg including bike weight, luggage etc which means very easy to overload if over 80kg. Halfords in the UK have sold a huge number of bikes and have had almost no recalls but then their bikes are rated at up to 160kg total load with 120kg allowed for the rider and offer a lifetime warranty on frame and forks. However they will typically have fractionally heavier frames than Decathlon because they are stronger. Most cyclists are obsessed with low weight bikes. I'd rather have a stronger frame that was 90g heavier. Cannondale used to have the joke name of Crack'n'fail because so many of their frames failed. So frame failures are an issue in the industry but those Bowman frames take it to a whole new level of danger.
It would be interesting to know which factory manufactured the frames. My guess is the owner went with whichever company quoted the lowest to do the work, and then when the frames arrived in the UK he was so desperate to complete outstanding orders he either didn't check them or hoped that nobody would notice the poor quality.
The Framesets are like Hunt wheels Cero wheels etc etc purchased on mass then imported and sold without inspection or if they do it'll be only one checked over quickly out of the batch!
@@thedownunderverse yes chap that's why they have batch/availability dates on their website, they will use OEM factory in say China Taiwan or similar some of the parts will be private molds for rims or programs for hubs, some will be open mold picked out of the factories catalogue of parts etc, then they simply click the amount they need, same as Prime Cosine Scribe Selcof Cero Zuus Bax etc etc etc. If however you wanted modern wheels built by I pro ide look at Borg Zed Pacenti or a local builder, but just be aware their parts will still be coming from similar factories in China etc. Unless you say order Hope hubs or Royce Chrisking etc etc then you know they are made in the UK/USA or Borg use Miche hubs basically the French version of Hope. Enve on the other hand make their Rims in house and use their own hubs or Chrisking hence the price! Your paying for products from manufacturers who pay their staff a good wage not Factories in China with extremely low low wages!
I can't see that being a certified frame. I also have my doubts whether that came from Taiwan and I even doubt if its actually 6069 aluminium. I think that is from a very low quality cheap manufacturer perhaps in mainland China, Vietnam, Cambodia etc and then packaged/finished in Taiwan. Alternatively its a factory that bid for a 6069 frame contract and just wasn't capable of making them properly. These frames have to be tested and certified before they are sold in the EU and UK and I cannot see that frame getting past certification so I suspect the certification is fake. If they were selling fake wheels it will be no surprise if its a fake frame too. Should be pointed out if you paid for a bike using a credit card you should have section 75 protection even if years old. I can't see how anyone wouldn't get fully refunded for this who paid for it with a credit card. Even if they don't have that credit card anymore the credit card company is still liable I believe. I don't claim to be an expert of aluminium frames but I've seen enough to know that is complete garbage from a third rate ultra low quality factory. I've seen some low end Bangladesh aluminium frames where the internal seat tube wasn't smooth and minor weld defects etc but those frames are incredibly high quality compared to that frame. I've never ever seen such an appalling aluminium frame in all my life. I'm a bit shocked to be honest. To think I watched some videos where they actually reviewed Bowman bikes well. My view of David Arthur has dropped considerably unless his review bike was made by a completely different factory. In fact I shall now think of him as David 'Bowman bikes' Arthur.
@RollinRat It's a legal requirement for bicycles sold in the US and Europe and many other countries to be certified so test examples of frames and forks and other components are tested to make sure they comply with the certification. I'm sure its not on the same basis you have stated but they still have to be tested and certified. However there are a lot of fake certs from China. Most reputable brands will validate their certs and push for independent test houses rather than inhouse testing. I don't know the full details of bicycle certification because that wasn't my industry but we had a site license for certification so did look at bicycles certs a few years ago. I honestly can't see that Bowman bike being genuinely tested and certified.
I liked the comparison with the Specialized frame. Could you please keep showing examples of good welds, jobs etc. I didn't really know what you were talking about until I saw the comparison. Learned loads from this video
I have one of these albeit a disc brake version. Loads needed to be faced off the BB shell to make them square. Rear brake mounts also needed loads of facing and also need a shim. Seat tube flares out just where you would want to fix the front mech band. Seat tube also non standard size at this point. Fork tube (CF) also splintered badly when cutting with a CF specific saw blade. Voids in fork steerer. Seat tube reamed with a butter knife. After seeing this I am never riding it again. It’s going on eBay - parts not working.
@RollinRat thanks for your comment. I’ve successfully cut about 5 carbon forks in mytime and trimmed a few carbon seatposts. This was the only one that splintered. There were visible voids in the post and uneven wall thickness. I used a specific carbon cutting blade. No matter how careful you are if the carbon is laid up badly you’re going to have problems. Thanks. Ian Lamb B.Eng
Fantastic, Hambini is literally single handedly transforming the bike industry for the better! Manufacturers and the bike media know that they can't get away with BS or a Hambini roast will haunt them!
Bikes will only be sent to magazines that the manufacturer know they’ll get a good review from 🤷🏼♂️, so most reviews aren’t worth the paper they’re written on. Was it a coincidence that Mr Bowman was ex Evans and the review was (I believe) in Cycling Weekly, where another ex Evans employee resides….
Thanks Hambini. Great work exposing the scam called Bowman. NUMBER ONE QUESTION I WANT TO ASK: WHAT BODY or AUTHORITY IN THE UK IS CHECKING THE MINIMUM QUALITY STANDARDS FOR BIKES or BIKE FRAMES? Hundreds of Bowman branded bikes were sold in this country so far. VERY VERY DANGEROUS !!! Are there other brands like this?
When Hambini does a calm video you know that it must be really bad. Not the usual jokes and piss taking but a serious warning. Obviously wants us to take his words VERY seriously!!!
Recently worked on a gen 1 Palace. Didn't look to close at welds but at a mechanic spotted a few issues. Bb cups (bsa) not threaded the best and facing wasn't great, rear triangle fairly wonky, not terrible but certainly not straight. Rear brake bridge made wrong so had to fit a spacer so that the pads wouldn't touch the frame and get jammed on under heavy braking. Seat tube clearance very tight, front mech band worn down by a lot from tyre rubbing it. Cable guides not ideal but not as bad as a bunch of well known brands. Fork, not sure if a catalogue fork or they got something made for them but had a non standard brake nut in it, that after only a few years looked like something from the bottom of a canal, proper rotten, not made from any decent metal that's for sure. Rode fine though, didn't notice anything, guess its the newer gens that were the real stinkers.
Great as always. It is always so enjoyable hearing an engineer taking the marketing waffle apart so succinctly, with the visual evidence of wrong doing. Have you considered going into teaching? Kids today could do with learning the appropriate words for such precise engineering terms! Keep up the good work, you always entertain as well as educate. 😁
Yes, the scream of "HELLO HAMBINI FANS!" is entertaining, but you're providing a real value here too. It's a shame the actual journalists seem to lack a critical eye.
Had one of their frames crack in under 4 months. Then told me I could have to ship back to them and cover VAT to confirm the 4 cracks in the frames that were visible to naked eye
A video like this makes you realise that going with a bigger company frame, even a scavenging one like Specialized, at least gives you some guarantee that you might ride a frame that's safe to use. That Bowman must have been someone's learning project that got mislabeled...
Hambini says "penetration" only 11 times in this video. He starts with 2 mentions at 11:00, then one at 14:50 and then 8 times after 18:15 - which is why I thought he uses that word a lot. But every time it made sense. Once he called it "fusion".
@@Hambini I did as you suggested and it doesn't look half as bad as the example that you showed. Still a little concerned that the welds haven't got full penetration as there's not much evidence of heat penetration within the head tube. Externally the welds look very tidy, no pin holes that I could see, and most things look aligned. The fork steerer appears straight and the wall thickness around the headtube appears uniform. Maybe the welder who worked on my frame had both his eyes and all his fingers??
So that's look at sample size Vs big issues the frame Hambini cut up was my 60kg mates bike he done 300 miles then the bike fell over hitting his calf denting it beyond repair! My palace is the one that snapped along with two other I know of! Only one of mates gen 3 Bowman's is okay! But after 100 miles of use and our issues he has binned it! Life ain't worth the risk especially at 50mph when wearing Lycra
Made in Taiwan doesn't mean a thing though. A lot of proper bikes are manufactured there. They do have the know how. It's all up to "How much is the brand paying" and "How much are name brands checking that they get what they paid for". QC is key in any field when outsourcing. Frames like this shouldn't pass to a consumer, let alone consistently reach consumers. They should be sent back to factory. But, with covid going around, I guess delivering goods to customers became more important than their safety. Then again, all of us, being impatient played a part in that.
I keep looking for negative things about Fairlight, and so far all I've found is a lack of rust proofing on the older models (They now apply treatment to all their frames), and some guy who didn't like that it didn't ride like a colnago race bike. Very reassuring.
@@Rikcey agreed, it’s been stressed over and over again by the 5 y/o. Just that I’ve been looking at bikes from that brand. On top of that, I got to know about them through yours truly DA’s channel which also happened to get similar kind of exposure as Bowman. Another point is their bikes are also on pre-order just like Bowman. Like damn, call me superstitious. Jokes aside, I hope they actually deliver instead of what’s happening here.
@@thegrowl2210 me too, but there aren’t much info out there. Glad you found some. Well, that guy is definitely looking at the wrong place if he wanted it to ride like a CF race bike, that bike is almost 9kg built.
Wow that is dreadful there was no QC/QA done prior to the frame being shipped. As a MD of a company you would of thought he would of taken time to check where your products are being made and be confident that the quality of thier work matches your expectations and marketing bullshit. Basically he was just wanting to make a quick buck and was willing to pay youtubers and publications to make the bike sound great.
Hi Hambini. My BB is fucked. I can see it with the naked eye. Its PF41, and the face of bb hole isnt flat. Where do I go to fix this? Bike shop? Machine shop? How important is the width of the bb shell? As in, do I even have the option of taking material off to flatten it?
Keep an eye on rear chain stays for cracks, I sold mine then the guy who brought it off had the chain stay snap in two! I. Fact that pic is my old frame
@@lovecycling193 I'll get on and build the fairlight, bowman was a bit of a panic purchase when I couldn't get my hands on anything else when my Rose frame cracked...
Two comments: 1- I understand 6069 requires full heat treatment, including aging, to develop mechanical properties. That is not just stress relieve but a bigger issue. 2- I do not know if specialized asks for full penetration in their welds or if other brands ask for it too. Otherwise a fillet weld is supposed not to have full penetration. But either you have once or the other but you can't have both at the same time. And the seat tube to the bb has not been welded at all.
1. Agree 2. The issue here is the weld bead is much thicker than the tube that is being joined, You can't "not" have full penetration in this instance because the material is thin, the throat of the weld is so large that if you don't get full pen, you won't have put enough heat into the joint. And agree, there are some joints that have no welding whatsoever.
If I had a bike manufacturing company I'd want Hambini heading the QC department. Might not get any bikes out the door but any that did you'd be sure they were top notch.
I like this new incarnation of Hambini. Calm and collected in the middle at least! 😂 I was thinking of buying one of these frames too! Hope my Caad12 is a bit better than this.
You missed that the parts that seem to be misaligned are designed this way. It took years of development and testing to find angles that don't stress the frame at all. Together with the patented geometry this results in a frame that hardly needs to be welded. This explains why the welds are only optical. Still these welds are extremely strong. Notice that the weld of the chainstay is even stronger than the chainstay itself!
My holier is not working, it needs a new gas valve, probably fixed next couple of days. Sitting here cold and a bit fed up, Hambuni heats me up with a roasting.
I'm a highly skilled fabricator etc. I used to weld to the highest possible standards. This is without a shadow of doubt the most dangerous THING I have ever seen created out of metal. It looks likey used a knife and fork as the welding station using a 9 Volt dry cell to power the fucking rig. I also have my suspicion they my have implemented a can opener to cut the aluminium alloy material. Blue Peter could have easily fashioned a more trustworthy bike frame out of an empty bog rolls. 😂
@RollinRat Bless you mate. I originally trained as a coded welder working on fabricating huge internal crane systems. I then trained and worked in a engineering firm that made high spec fastening solutions for NASA, Rolls Royce, Pratt and Whitney, Cosworth to name a few. I then went to Art School and got an MA Fine Art (Sculpture). I then dabbled in Film as a Art Director and production set designer. Only low budget art house stuff, arty boloxs stuff. For my hobbies since a nipper I raced BMX, XC, then DH and got a small sponsorship. I retired from racing at 40. Im now 54, I have built my own bikes since the age of 12, it the was the only way I could get a bike because I came from a poor background. I only have two bikes now. Dolan track frame built up to a strong 7.5 kg to take the tuff Berlin shitty roads. I also have another single speed bike, All City Nature Boy SSCX pimped up with lovely Ritchey WCS etc. I sport commute in rain wind and snow 5 days a week a round trip of only 31 Kilometres in dangerous as fuck Berlin. At the weekend If my old racer bones let me,I take the Nature Boy in the forest and I start to smile. A simple, budget 4130 double butted frame that's well makes for an unpretentious bike that has withstood 11 years of being punished. She still looks like new. The cheapest frame I've ever had and one I actually love the most. Weird eh... I really feel sorry for people getting into the many wonderful worlds of cycling, they really do get mugged off the quality has taken a profound nose dive in recent years. Now we see shit like that frame set which is down right dangerous marketed as the dogs bollox. We should count ourselves lucky my friend that we have had quality cycling for most of our cycling days.
@RollinRat Bless you mate, I'm a Brit I moved to Berlin in 2008. The underground electronic music scene and fine art scene is what brought me here. I wish you all the best mate, keep safe and spin to win. 👍💪😁
Suggestion for a video: Buy the cheapest aliexpress aluminium frame you can find. Should be some under $50. Don't try to find some discounted higher end frame or a counterfeit name brand, just the basic bottom of the line from any seller that is trustworthy enough to actually deliver. Most likely it will be a fixie frame. Then get the paint stripped off it, as well as off this bowman, and perhaps a "quality" giant, or merida made frame if someone wants to donate a crashed one to science. Also a frame actually sold by walmart retail stores or whatever the UK equivalent is would be good to compare. The point is of course, not just to harp on the bowman being bad (we know that already), but to show what the state of the industry really is. We "expect" a frame made by giant to have perfect welding, but honestly I would expect both the Walmart bike and even the aliexpress cheapo to also have perfect (if not pretty) welding. I would be very curious to see if my faith is misplaced that the bowman is an exception in an otherwise good industry. I haven't been around low end bikes much since the 90's, my GT pantera is my el cheapo winter bike, and that's not actually that cheap.
The walmart owners quite like mtb and also quite like not being in court, so wood hope that since the trash of the 90s stuff they used to sell, they've picked up their game. Decathlon are a load of scum bags (tip, never work for them) but their bikes are mostly pretty good, many low end being manufactured in Portugal or France, maybe a bit heavier but can't remember ever seeing a failure due to defect.
A friend has one of these. For a do it all frame, you have to run a 23mm tyre in the back. How the fuck did any of the shill reviewers skim over that? Bike media wankers all spunking into a common gravy boat. Yuck.
These telemarketers are so unintelligent that they can barely read the brochure, don't expect them to actually bother to estimate the tyre clearance using a caliper or, god forbid, to try mounting several tyres to see which of them fit. Most of them probably have "righty tighty lefty loosey" notes next to their hex keys and screwdrivers so as to not be confused.
This was actually my frame and I ran 26mm tyres with plenty of room. Could have possibly run 28's
I guess it shows the variation in the frames they were sending out.
There were multiple British bike review companies that gave these British "based" companies a lot of good press
That’s odd, to my knowledge they will take a 25C/26C no problem.
@@Andy7846 not sure which bowman, palace i think it was, but we couldn't feasibly fit bigger than a 23mm conti (measured 25+) without rub from wheel flex. A 25mm conti would touch the brake bridge!
There is no way that this frame could collect water. Any liquid would just leak through the cracks!
"The most dangerous frame I have seen to date" that is literally the most damming certification that can be awarded in the cycling industry isn't it haha.
Usually Hambini complains about bottom bracket precision which is bad and annoying but no safety hazard.
Great video as per. Thanks Hambini. So, as an Engineer - and I was a welding inspector before that - three main thoughts: 1) Never buy a bike from a company that isn't led by Engineers - witness what happened to Mercedes for a decade or so when the accountants and hipster salespeople ran the place 2) Most of the cycling media is just warmed over advertising nonsense 3) The number of bikes with catastrophic failures is a disgrace, it would never be tolerated in cars. These bikes could kill people - we really need some cycle construction law(s) - but then the UK government doesn't contain a single Engineer so don't hold your breath...
Chainstays are “asymmetrical” and that is a feature, not a fault. Sincerely, the Marketing Department.
Just FYI, if you pay Cycling Weekly they’ll add you to the Editor’s Choice list
How much to have one of these cum stained shillsters added to the Editor's ride of choice?
Cycling, weakly.
Sounding like they ard all tories ovef at CW
Wait, what Cannondale wins again despite all the synapse feeling like a wet noodle and super six have terrible headsets? How did that happen?
Kudos for calling this out. Received one of their WEALD frame-sets and sent it back as had never seen a worse attempt at welding two triangles together in my life. Dozens of these are popping up new on eBay so consider reporting the items under the product safety heading.
The irony of calling a frame "WEALD"
@@docmccoy9813 Epic comment, lolz
I imagine you mail: "I have a not well welded weald I'd like to return"
Here’s the thing as a consumer. We don’t have access to the tools that our 5 year old have to look into whether the frame we buy are going to put our lives at risk. Heck, we’re not suppose to in the first place but it almost feels like we have to take it upon ourselves to call out Brands and manufacturers for their shoddy quality.
This video make me very appreciative when we get to see tear down of products that shed more light of what we’re getting ourselves into
Buy COLUMBUS !
He should start a new Bicycle Company and calling thm "BenDover" Bikes
Made from recycled dildo’s.😂
The welder would obviously be Phil Mc Gaping Crevice.
How about playing a drinking game? Take a shot every time Hambini says penetration!
Hambini says "penetration" only 11 times in this video. He starts with 2 mentions at 11:00, then one at 14:50 and then 8 times after 18:15 - which is why I thought he uses that word a lot. But every time it made sense. Once he called it "fusion".
"frame can collect water" Bowman can return with a new marketing 'scheme'. Sell these frames to the Third World to collect water in the villages, AND to Survival Kits! 😂😂
Third world will buy from China. Those crap quality, cost you around 200usd per frameset only if its made in China.
This child has to ride 5miles everyday to collect water….
….now they can do it without a bucket 😂
Mr Arthur and the bike journalists strike again lol!!. Unfortunately these days it's not just bowman it's half the bloody industry!. Make as cheap as possible sell for as much as possible quality control out the window completely. It's amazing what a good paint job can cover up!. Thank you to Hambini and all you guys and girls who sent pics in etc. If people like you didn't speak up about shit manufacturing nothing would change. I was a welder for over 30 years in the oil industry and manufacturing and believe me I have seen a lot of shit like this!. These days time is money and company's are only interested in the amount of frames produced screw the quality!. Same with carbon fibre that can be equally as bad it's a case of are you feeling lucky lol?. A big shout out to companies who still care time. Look. And various others curses to those who don't see previous Hambini episodes!. Curses also to journalists who basically tell us shit just to get free stuff etc. It is us poor bastards who pay the price.
The journalistic side of the cycling industry has always been kinda fake. "company gave me a 1 hour test ride on a bike and I rate its reliability 5 stars". if anything they are actually better now than they used to be. The integrity of these new manufacturers has gone through the floor though. If specialised bought off a review (***example, not accusation), it would be to claim its the best, fastest, coolest thing since sliced bread, and the worst case is that it isn't. Even when Gardin was lying about the tubing they used and put fake columbus SLX stickers on, the bike was still made correctly.
These new pop up "trading companies" who sell direct sight unseen make me worry for safety now. So many seem to either sell bad products (at premium prices) or do not stand behind their products.
@@littleshopofrandom685 of
@@garyboyle695 ?
David Arthur is, without doubt, the biggest cycling shill in the UK.
I am an engineer too with a welding background. I'm normally a bit skeptical of Hambini's 'roastings' as I think he is a bit over judicious in applying aerospace standards to non-aerospace components (bike frames anyway) or perhaps its the need to sensationalize for the sake of TH-cam hits. However in this case, Hambini did not need to exaggerate as the manufacturing quality is truly abysmal. The standard of the welding is about what I would expect on a Walmart $100 bike.
It would be good to have seen some of the cut joints polished so the welds extents can be identified. I suspect the tubes had not been mitered to cut the cost of manufacture; mitering is normal practice in order to control the weld penetration through to the root.
I note the bike boxes said that the frames were hand welded. In the hands of an expert welder welds can be good and consistent. In this case I suspect the frames were built in a small 'jobbing' shop in Twain and they were hand welded because the numbers they produce are not worth investing in automated welding (robots) equipment and rely on semi-skilled welders to keep the costs down. Personally - give me a 'robot' welded frame any day over a human welded frame - as long as the welding engineers know how to set things up the welding will be consistent from frame to frame.
th-cam.com/users/FiveMinuteVelo
it was totally crap. I can't believe they let that out of the door.
Hello, I used to work in welding robotics. I could never understand why manufacturers are still using hand welding for bike frames? And China buy more Japanese robots than the US and EU put together?
@@reginaldscot165 The reason is the up-front investment and the 'fact' that hand welded is best!
@@FiveMinuteVeloFor small batch production of any kind, human welding is fine, but I rather invest on robot for big production.
@@reginaldscot165 I think robots are for large factories that can afford one, but bike industry is never big enough to afford one in first place.
It's a £49,99 frame set from King Dong in Tie one...... What an Absolute betrayal to REAL frame builders. Thank god they've gone out of business.
Utterly pathetic. The marketing around this was the worst bit
Sadly the mass producing factory actually turning out all this crap into the industry is probably still in business. If it's not branded as Bowman, then it will be some other over marketed rubbish. 😔
In the welding community we call this “pigeon poo”
i thought it was pigeon shit but there you go.
hey. I am well offended!
Haha, that’s too funny
I need a Hambini t-shirt so when I walk into my local bike shop and watch everybody run for the doors.
Remember to shout out HELLO HAMBINI FANS!!!
Those welds are horrendous. I was trained as a micro-miniature electronics repair tech (soldering) and one of my instructors used to make fun of us when we did a very bad job soldering. He would say "The larger the blob, the better the job" was not a good guideline for soldering. It appears the "welder" of that frame thought it was!
Grinder and paint makes me the welder I aint'
@@dallasantolovich6747 Can I borrow that saying for all my future projects?
I have a lovely 20 year old aluminum GT ZR3.0 which was a tight fit for a 25mm tire on the rear, I wanted to run 28mm, contacted Bowman and asked and they confirmed that their Palace R would not fit 28mm tires so I dodged a bullet there. Took my frame to a frame builder and he moved the rear brake bridge to accept larger than 28mm tires, couldn't be happier.
Neil Webb was one of the inspirations for starting my own bike company, ironic that he may further inspire what NOT to do.
But it does highlight the perils in focusing on marketing over sound engineering and manufacturing.
It takes years, sometimes decades, to establish the brand through quality. Many famous brands built their reputation through quality and customer loyalty. Personally I'm not a fan of bike company sponsoring a team or an athlete because it creates a bias for perceived quality.
Marketing takes flash, spiel, smoke and mirrors. Engineering takes actual skills. Given the owner's background it's obvious why they went for the 'sell them first, worry about them later' business strategy..
Great video as always in the usual no-nonsense Hambini style! This is probably the worst workmanship seen on a bike sold in the UK. There are so many defects that something is bound to fail pretty quickly resulting in a very dangerous situation for the rider. I actually contemplated buying one of these frames (The Palace 3c) 18 months ago as they had a real appeal for an old school guy like me: threaded BB, rim brakes, nice classic geometry, etc. but there was a few comments starting to surface in bike forums about the frame poor alignment so I decided to buy a second hand CAAD12 instead. Wise move in retrospect. We all know that bike reviews are biased (I rub your back, you rub my back type of business) and the whole cycling industry is driven by marketing not engineering. However, such a poor level a workmanship raises many questions. How could such a sub-standard product gain the UK Product Safety standard (or CE certification)? Or was the frame submitted to UKCA different from the ones sold in the UK? How could someone miss so many defects? Surely Bowman Cycles must have been aware of the quality issues and, if so selling bikes with known defects is totally irresponsible. You are talking of possible risk of death or serious injuries. I know the company has folded but hopefully an investigation can still take place. There should be a product recall . Hambini, keep up the good work!
This Bowman guy is an absolute criminal. Excellent dismantling video by Hambini.
I reckon if I tried to make a frame it would look something similar to that.
Loving the frame cut ups! No escaping crap on display with those. More of cut ups please. Will be interesting when you finally come across some decent ones!
I'm really looking forward to you getting hold of the new Allez Sprint.
There are 3C Bowman frames being ridden out there this very minute! Makes me sick. Good job posting this video, Hambini 👏🏻👌🏻
Wow, these frames are a class action lawsuit waiting to happen! Cycling media companies should probably research who they're dealing with before taking money to promote a company... or at the very least inspect the test bike before it's built up.
Too honest for me, would rather just learn how they can bring me to new levels of stiffness
The point is he use to be part of the media who reviewed it! So basically he sent off bikes to be tested by people he knew 🤷♂️
With few exceptions, enthusiast media are always keen to take the money first and ask questions later - if there are any questions to ask. What the general public may not know is that, when it comes to enthusiast media - whether it's cycling, motorbikes, darts, etc. - what is presented in front of the camera or on the page is usually the result of a publisher's ad sales department, not the editors or presenters. If something bad or unfortunate happens - such as a product that's been poorly designed or manufactured - seldom are any media outlets held accountable if there's litigation of any kind. Media hide behind the shield of editorial integrity and such as if they were a member of the legitimate press - which they aren't. And so the manufacturer is left out to spin in the wind for playing the game and letting it get the best of them.
It’s sad to see there really is no place for technical editors in cycling media these days but imho the entire category is functionally obsolete. Guy who we know nothing about gets a prepared bike for a week (rarely do they show critical power #s, race results, ride data etc) Rides it in the south of France or wherever, and somehow he can really comment on the durability, build quality, or in depth on the characteristics of the bike (and of course the characteristics are always overwhelming improvements). Guy who review the bike also works for a company who sells Ad space to bike companies. See the conflict? May have made sense back in the day before the internet but I’d trust a forum long before I’d trust something like cycling weekly or bike radar. Heck I do the aforementioned before I buy a car, it’s amazing how all those professional reviewers skipped over how much of pain in the ass doing an oil change on the Tacoma is for a home mechanic. Considering it’s the most frequent maintenance item an owner would do you’d think it would be relevant.
@RollinRat Virtually all marketing is BS; there is little profit in telling 100% truth. The bike biz is guilty of mixing marketing and journalism, but the automotive industry here in the US has been guilty of much, much worse over the decades.
I am really concerned at watching this. I had a dreadful accident on my PalaceR on Hardknott Pass when the bike developed a huge speed wobble. I really thought I was about to die! Horrendous. The crash was bad but it could have been far worse. I put it down to rider error. Now I am really concerned that my frame was responsible in part and it could happen again.
I did Hardknott last year on my Motorbike............THAT was bad enough, no way would I attempt that on a cycle, the condition of the road surface is absolutely criminal, as are many other areas, Trough of Bowland etc.
Out of interest are you aware of any misalignment on your frame? on my palace 3 front wheels it a tiny bit off to the right i.e. its not aligned with the back wheel. I've checked it with another wheel to confirm
@@crimson177 I hadn't seen any but I have been really shocked by this video and some of the comments about the frame. My crash was caused by a speed wobble which I could not explain. Now that I see the lack of quality regarding the frame build it makes more sense. My crash was near fatal which is quite chilling really.
"One massive weld defect" This video could've been four words long.
I've got a Bowman palace R. It's a stunning bike, really fun to ride. I got sucked in by the marketing, but honestly it didn't disappoint. I've put 14k+ km on it, cycled multiple gran fondos. Bowman used to post videos of trips to witness manufacturing points in Taiwan. I really liked the look of the Palace 3, but I couldn't justify the purchase since I already had the Palace R... Turns out to have been for the best. It's really sad to see how Bowman flared out. I can only speculate what went wrong, but I suspect poor decisions by the manufacturer coupled with the inability to travel to Taiwan for QC due to COVID restrictions. I guess they were too small to be able to financially weather the storm.
Black palace R here, great frameset for sure. Sad to see them go, definitely believe there is a market for threaded bb affordable alu frames with a racey geo.
I recently finished building up a Weald frame with GRX components. It’s a beautiful looking bicycle and rides so nicely and I’m very happy with the bike. Of course I won’t be if the bicycle cracks in half but we’ll see if that happens. I previously purchased a Pilgrims disc frames slightly too small I had intended to put for sale on eBay but it seems now it may just sit in the closet.
I also purchased the black/lt. blue Palace R frameset in 2020. Also sucked in by the marketing. Never even bothered to look at the welds from the inside. I still ride it with no issues, and the BB and head tube alignment "seemed" ok during the build (DA 9000 cranks spun freely after installation). 25mm Gatorskins on Eurus wheelset with decent clearance. I rode it yesterday (4/11) and during the ride it occurred to me that I should check the fork steerer tube for no other reason than curiosity. Then I watched this video. Now I better strip it down and take a peek inside at the weld points. The price was right, they shipped to the US quickly, and everything seemed spot-on. I hope I got lucky.
@@bluefishblitz9577 I looked as much as I could inside the frame at the welds on my 2019 Bowman Pilgrims Disc and pretty much they were exactly as in this video. I’m wondering though if what we’re looking at is brazing rather than welding, and there’s no penetration because there’s not supposed to be. If many hundreds of frames and bicycles were sold like this and they’re all supposedly deadly, then where are all the broken bones? I am 220 pounds for god sakes pounding across typical urban rutted roadways. No visible cracks or damage of any kind on my bike. (Knocking wood nonetheless).
I had a Palace 3 disc and was happy with it up until this week. Just under 9000km under a 61kg rider and both chainstays have cracked through at the same place. Fortunately found in the shop rather than at 70km/hr down a mountain.
I had a cheap P-ecks steel track frame that didn't look entirely dissimilar to this. Seat tube failed and it was heavy 4130. Run around on warranty and gave up eventually. For years the tame cycling press shilled them too.
Stresses will relief as soon as it breaks in pieces no worries
Could you cut up a frame from a more reputable manufacturer for reference? Without that we don’t really now how much this frame differs from the industry standard.
I'm sure he will, if you have one to donate.
A good fender setup works amazingly well in the wet. Your feet and ass will stay dry and even chain will stay a lot cleaner, and the the front stays are in the right place where the fender doesn't lock up the front wheel when hit by debris or something in the spokes. Cut up an old water bottle or something to make a flexible front mud flap that gets close to the ground in front to be completely amazed how pleasant a rain ride can be.
As far as classic aluminum, it's all many riders need, there are fewer safety concerns with correctly welded aluminum vs complex inspection of CF, aluminum tends to last longer, sometimes forever (Cannondale black lightning), usually easier to identify cracks before a critical failure, failures often give warnings, 100% RECYCLABLE, nontoxic in environment, no fossil fuel material, NO MICROPLASTICS pollution. Just my opinion but for daily use, polished aluminum is just cool. Also much less of a theft concern, damage concern, taking racks or a trailer, etc.
Remember, bikes are also supposed to be better transportation than cars and trucks. It's not just about competition. Everyone gets a little older and slower eventually. Aluminum feels appropriate and has class at that point. Old racers never die, they just go back to riding aluminum. 😆
It's not really fair to compare a $36 frame like this to high end carbon.
What? Oh.
Here's a bit of bike factory background for you all:
A top tier bare aluminium hard tail frame, for kona or santa cruz for example costs about $90 - $150 usd at the factory. Min orders vary from 100 to 1000 units depending on if you need custom forgings or hydroformed shapes. The prices may have changed with supply issues, but this is the baseline. They really just don't cost much.
Mid grade consumer frames, like my GT Pantera are $50-$60 usd, from lower tier but still reputable factories. My GT has the slightly offset head machining - it is post machined, to get around weld deformations, but there's a point where its out of spec and should be rejected. Mine is fine, but of course, it also has real welds...
Walmart / crappy tire bike frames can cost $10-$20 usd and you would still demand correct welding out of them because walmart doesn't take kindly to being sued. Heavy, low grade, low performance to be sure, but still fucking welded together.
The reason a santa cruz chameleon then is $999usd is not the cost of the bare welded frame. The fancy paint adds a bit (a lot some times), and then you pile on insurance and liability, shipping, warehousing, warranty stock, engineering and testing (cause they actually do that), marketing, race team expenses, sponsorships, taxes and other overhead. Only then do you get to santa cruz's markup, then the distributors markup, then the retail stores markup. Smaller suppliers will avoid many of those costs, but they can pay a fortune for insurance, $100+ per bike sometimes. Nukeproof can sell the scout - a more or less same frame for about half the price because they strip a lot of those costs away, but it's still $500usd, not $90. Most of the price is not the bare frame.
Those carbon forks only run about $60-$80 as well. Even columbus futura forks are well under $200usd to the factory. (Even those el cheapo Chinese carbon frames Hambini has been showing only run about $200 a pop, plus about $3000 per mold size)
As you can see, If the cheapest frame is $10, and the expensive one is $150, and your retail prices are set to be in the $700usd range like this Bowman was, there is absolutely no excuse not to spec and sell the best frame you can get made. I could easily start a company tomorrow and sell 1000 frames direct for $700usd, buying the nicest frame caribou can make me, insuring myself, paying my staff, renting a storage facility, doing a little marketing and paying my 3 series lease... and come out rather well. There zero excuse for a badly made frames. ZERO.
In the end, There's lots of ways to fail at selling bikes. Right now you can't get any parts, that's legit, but your frames should still be perfect. You could be a complete moron at running a business, but your frames should still be perfect. You could fall for the idea of buying up them $10 frames and hawking them en mass for $199 then losing your shit. I can excuse that kind of naivete, I cannot excuse a bad frame at a premium price. A dangerous frame is criminal. Literally. Just ask Rocky Mountain :)
Bowman claims that the frame is made in Taiwan, it looks like the trash I've seen in mainland China. I've never seen anything so poorly made in Taiwan, maybe I'm wrong, Rocky Mountain had it's frames made in Taiwan for years. Was there some controversy around Rocky Mountain? Bicycles are way overpriced generally. Ridiculous prices, for a product almost entirely made offshore. Bit of a scam.
@@CrapKerouac taiwan vs china vs vietnam (my GT) vs canada (the rocky in question) has nothing to do with it. The bowman in this video is not acceptable from anywhere.
The rocky mountain story is near 30 years old at this point, other people who were in the canadian bike industry in the 90's probably know it and can correct me if I've blended it with some other story in my head. Basically head tube on a vertex(?) came off due to bad welding/heat treating, rider was impaled by the downtube. Rocky apparently did a LOT to ensure the rider was taken care of because they knew this accident could make their company go away. Point is, even the best builders fuck up, and those fuckups can literally kill someone. YOU DO NOT BUILD UNSAFE FRAMES!
This isn't the typical hambini "oh this bike isn't perfect to spec so its crap", this bike should never have been sold (It never should have gotten to paint).
Why don't you do this? I'd buy one. BSA, 27.2mm post, band-on front derailleur, external cabling, raw aluminium finish with a clear coat. Maybe some subtle hydroforming where it make sense to do so. Endurance geometry with clearance for 35mm (measured) tyres.
@@thedownunderverse Can't get any parts :P
I actually do have a design I want to build (the reason I know all this shit), but I am nowhere near ready to commit to it. As I said it's one thing to drop $100k to commission 1000 top notch frames, it's another to get people to buy them, and yet another to support them properly afterwards.
@@littleshopofrandom685 Making stuff is easy, but selling them is really hard. I get it.
It's like a high school metal shop student turned in his project and instructor Hambini had no choice but to give it an "F". 😁
This channel is absolutely essential viewing for every cyclist. Excellent work!
The chainstay failure indicates to me, that the frame was not heat treated. On steel frames this is no problem, but on crap aluminium frames this is a problem. Look at the place of the failure. Right behind the bottom bracket where the frame should be flexible, but it is hardened because of welding. A bad welder also means a lot of heat input. The more heat you put in, the bigger the weld impacted zone becomes. The bigger the chance of failure. There is a reason not a lot of custom frame builders use aluminium....
I've got zero interest in bikes but can't stop watching these videos!
A thought provoking video which highlights serious safety issues.
That frame is a death trap.
I do wonder what qualifies some journalists to be described as 'The Technical Editor'.
Have they got the required technical background or are they just churning manufacturers technical spec?
They are are in a position of influence and therefore need to consider the consequences of what they write.
I doubt they have a relevant technical qualifications to be a credible technical editor. Like you said, they're just churning manufacturer's tech specs.
Think about it. Do they even make decent OBJECTIVE reviews based on build quality or stress & wear test result? No, they just make SUBJECTIVE reviews of how the ride feels with adjectives such as how fast, how comfortable, or how aero.
Only objective review I see is light weight, but that's pointless if the rest of the bike is in poor quality.
So anyone with one of these frames should def stop riding immediately
You have to check titanium "premium frames" from Van Nicholas. The one I rode had a vertical misalignment of 10 mm between the rear dropouts... Some nice welding as well :)
I had a Palace R a few years ago, rear end geometry all of of whack, skipped all over the place when putting power down. Got a warranty replacement and sold it. Shame, really wanted to support a ‘British’ bike brand
Best brittish frame brand used to be Reynolds back in the day
Re chainstay failure: it could be through lack of stress relief through annealing, but I reckon it might be heat affect from that (wonky) reinforcement bridge. Too much welding in a small area. The heat affected zone might also be away from the internal butting. Just a thought.
Curious why the random plug for Waltly? I do have a Waltly Ti frame and rode it recently on a long gravel race and it was perfect, but I don't have the technical expertise to assess the frame weld quality. I just built it up and rode it. What a relief to hear they, at least through hearsay, do things right.
Because they are a very competent frame manufacturer who do OEM work for lots of western companies
I've a 2 year old Bowman Palace R that has, fortunately for one reason or another, not had much use since Covid arrived. It's probably done about 1,000 miles so basically as good as new. And given what we are now aware of (thanks H), clearly good as new doesn't mean much. I've taken the liberty of stripping the forks, bearings, bottom bracket and seat post down to get a look at the internal frame tube surfaces: something I was barely conscious of when I built the frame up. However I did qualify as a welder a long time ago; not coded, but I know enough to be dangerous. I wanted to gauge whether the earlier bikes might be tarnished with the same brush as the later batches. They can. I'm currently uploading a short video on my quick diagnosis. Almost no weld penetration, as Hambini already highlighted. And in the heat affect zone, where there should have been weld penetration, there are visible hairline cracks marking the radius of the top and bottom tube and their join to the head tube. So, long story short; I wont be riding that bike again. I got burnt. I got suckered in by the media coverage and wanted to support the little, local company. Given almost nothing is made in the UK anyway, I don't feel inclined to do that at all now and I will steer clear of the pop-up UK brands selling marketing rather than UK product. If you want, Hambini, I'll post the link on here. Cheers for the heads-up. Not something you want to find out about, but better to know.
Yep please post the link, just be aware that TH-cam may remove your message if you do. I'm not sure why they do it, but if they do just ping me an email and i'll circulate it
@@Hambini try this. Cheers. th-cam.com/video/Ha7GI2cC_CQ/w-d-xo.html
Appreciate the work Hambini. This seems more like a scam then a bike… Thank fuck I didn’t buy one of them, I’d be furious ✊
Thank-you Hambini! Now I know what every weld defect looks like.
I have one of the first Pilgrims frames from 2016. It’s got a stupid pressfit BB that’s clicking constantly and the rear brake bridge that holds the mudguard is a piece of 3D printed crap. But, the build isn’t that bad. I love the geometry and the way it rides. Done thousands of miles on it without issue. Saying that, after watching this video, I’m ordering a Mason.
I recently found a Weald on ebay but sent it back. It wasn’t straight but the main thing was that the fork steerer was so undersized the compression ring couldn’t grip it. I broke a stem trying to tighten it. They didn’t deserve to stay in business but what about the frames out there that are death traps?
"and the rear brake bridge that holds the mudguard is a piece of 3D printed crap"
you sure it's 3D printed?
Yep. Definitely 3D printed. It’s been around for a while. Read the reviews for it.
When you can still find well thrashed GT zaskars still going strong and many other Aluminium bike frames you have to wonder. There's different grades of weld and you have the less critical standard for tack welding of non load bearing ornamental products etc. I did some Aluminium tig welding on a personal interest college course years ago and i remember the tutor talking about the different wire grade, preheated and post treated before and after welding for certain applications. They even xray some welds especially for pressure vessels and mil spec. I suspect that this frame was knocked up on the mainland by a low level company. I've got a 650b alloy frame, Made in China and it was hammered to hell and back and still true. A decent owner would have cut up a sample frame and had it scanned before doing a production contract. I don;t know what the consumer laws in the UK say about selling frames as it can be quite a grey area with low volume sales. Most countries have to submit and show that a bicycle is safe to use, fit for purpose and a standards sticker is affixed to the seat tube. Maybe low volume frame and forks don't need to get compliances. I like David Arthur and if i was him i'd be choosing his friends wisely as this malarkey could be unfavourable especially if he's endorsed such crap.
Keep roasting these merchants Hambo!
Presented with such maturity and composure - I’d swear you’re at least age 8 now.
I own one of these and this is so dismaying and infuriating. I bought a Palace:R when Cannondale denied my warranty on my Super Six Evo which was out of alignment and had wheel rub/shifting issues that got worse over time as the dropouts wore into a more asymmetrical condition. The Palace:R cracked on the drive side chainstay after 3 years 28,000 miles and they warrantied with a Palace 3:C. Whole process was bizarre they agreed to send me a frameset, then went radio silent for a month and wouldn’t give me an update (at the time I had an opportunity to buy one of the last rim brake Allez Sprints go through my fingers) luckily the frameset did show up and has been fine but I have a -18% grade near my house that I regularly descend at >50mph and it’s terrifying to think what could happen if one of these tubes separated. Thanks for exposing this absolute shit industry, it’s outrageous how much stuff I’ve bought that is expensive but poorly made and the companies who make it take almost no responsibility.
Oddly enough does anyone know of a good aluminum or entry priced carbon frame with similar geo to this? It may be made like shit but holy fuck this bike is actually amazingly stable in descents.
look at italian manufacturers, a lot of them still produce more entry level aluminium and carbon frames with the traditional italian race geometry of larger fork rake, longer chainstays. That is what gives the steering input more weight and slows down the responsiveness. Dedacciai are a good example.
CAAD
Difficult to believe a UK company would market this crap of a frame.
this reminds me of the Klein Mountainbikes which were boutique welded by people who love their jobs at first and after being bought up by trek you could see the quality drop in welds as well as finishing. when the flex in the material is strong enough to make the coating have gaps in places next to welds it for sure is a cheapo creapo money maker with a lovely brand name on it. so if you consider buying a vvintage klein frame, make sure it´s not blue and produced after 96.
Those old Kleins were legendary. Never knew what became of them. Effing Trek. What the hell did Trek ever make of note back then other than the Y-frame?
Wow, what a piece of shite frame that somebody dares to sell as a respectable piece of kit.
That said, the cycling press's handling of these sort of things is a very longtime practice as part of the overall consumer enthusiast media (virtually all outdoor sports, including motos, bicycles, etc.) that has gone on for *decades.* The reason why constantly positive press is published is to 1.) keep encouraging new participants in whatever sport or activity that's being promoted; and 2.) to make money, especially from small companies or manufacturers, no matter how good or bad their products may be (and there have been a few small companies over the years that made some very outstanding products, but died because of the overwhelming floods of copies, etc.). And the enthusiast media industry overall wants to be in a position to reap the monetary benefits it thinks it's owed when the next Trek or Specialized emerges. The danger of this is when a company collapses under its own BS when it creates a horrible POS, even though the press gleefully promotes the hell out of it. Classic example of this was when Cannondale decided to make motocross bikes over 20 years ago, which forced the company into bankruptcy because the product was shite - despite showers of positive press from certain motorcycle press, a move because Cannondale most likely purchased heavy amounts of advertising in said press's magazines.
Aside from that, while it may be unbelievable that a supposedly "respectable" bike company would churn out such poorly made product, I think the most likely answer to this is if said company purchased "seconds" from whoever made the frames for them. That, or the frame manufacturer misrepresented the quality of its product. To me, these can be the only two logical answers. Because who in their right mind would want to take a bunch of obviously shite frames/bikes and sell them as quality product? Unless they didn't give a crap, which, if so, would take this atrocity to a wholly different level altogether.
So, there are two scenarios here: The brand's frame manufacturer lied about how its frames were made, or the brand knew the frames were crap. A situation this bad can't happen unless the possibility of subterfuge is involved.
Even if the frame manufacturer is at fault, so too is the marketer since it's their brand name at stake and they should be doing due diligence. So in that case it's still massive incompetence at the very least if not actively malicious.
If you put your name on a product then the onus is on you to select a reputable manufacturer who doesn't cut corners and to perform your own due diligence, for example by getting a third party to perform QA/QC.
Anything less is simply being irresponsible or negligent
I don’t buy the idea that the marketer is faultless if the manufacturer lies about the quality. I bought a Bowman and paid more than what I would have paid for an open mould frame and part of the reason I did was because it had some semblance of name brand behind it (as well as fabulous reviews). I’m not stupid and I know that our boy Neil isn’t over there in Taichung welding up the frame’s himself but I assume a registered brand would do basic QC/QA checks on the product they order in. If they’d gone belly up because the supplier sent them shit frames that they pulled for safety reasons (essentially unsellable inventory) then I’d shed a tear but they had to know these things going out were not up to spec.
@@philipk4475 Here in the US, if you purchase a container of bikes, frames, etc. from a manufacturer in Taiwan or China, and your brand name is on the product - *you* are the manufacturer of record. So, any problems, defects, etc., that arise come down on your shoulders, not the supplier on the other side of the world. This is especially the case if the federal government gets involved, then it can be very bad news if you're ordered to make a recall and take everything back.
@@David.. Exactly !
Such a shame. Because a well made alloy frame can be light and stiff enough for anyone who isn’t a pro, and at a reasonable price.
Wow. That is shocking. I have seen lots of poor welds on department store bikes but this is next level.
I would like to see a deep dive on the Vaast magnesium frame. Lots of great claims. Lots of wonderful reviews from usual suspects. But what is the reality? I’m trying to decide between a Vaast and one of the carbon frames you’ve reviewed and found to be pretty good, maybe even great for the price.
It sucks because for every mid box brand like this there is one like state that is trying to give you something functional for the dollar that is good platform to upgrade
That craftsmanship is so piss poor it's unbelievable. I have just recently started building frames as a hobby. By no means do I consider myself accomplished or capable of making a product I would feel comfortable selling, but everything I have made so far is miles ahead of this. All of these mistakes just send a clear message that the manufacturer does not care.
My respect for David Arthrthur has plumeted. I had a feeling that he was spouting bs somewhere
All the reviewers are as bad as each other. They won't get paid if they actually spoke the truth
@@abedfo88 true but we can hope oneday someone comes along
Agreed, it’s inconceivable a professional reviewer who’s seen hundreds of bikes could miss key details in the construction like shown here. Which leaves him buying into the Emperor’s New Clothes bullshit of Bowman’s marketing. Either way, atrocious work.
I've been on a Hambini binge for days...love the guy is clearly smart and wonderfully insulting and self deprecating.
I am a welder and also a welding inspector. Yes, this is a bad frame bad alignment, and some burn through in there .But I want to say If the weld size enough , full penetration in not necessary in fillet weld .The Specialized flame is butt weld ,they are different with fillet weld, butt weld need full penetration, but fillet weld not. even a high end flame you will not see full penetration in fillet weld, but they may be double weld make it stronger.
Interestingly, one of the cheapest semi-decent road bikes you can buy right now is nicely welded. We have a Decathlon RC520 here, no complaints. Looks exactly like the pics on their website.
The big suppliers have to be much more careful. Decathlon has had a lot of frame recalls for frame failures but I guess you have to link that to their very low load ratings which I'm sure many people exceed. They typically have a total load of 100kg including bike weight, luggage etc which means very easy to overload if over 80kg. Halfords in the UK have sold a huge number of bikes and have had almost no recalls but then their bikes are rated at up to 160kg total load with 120kg allowed for the rider and offer a lifetime warranty on frame and forks. However they will typically have fractionally heavier frames than Decathlon because they are stronger. Most cyclists are obsessed with low weight bikes. I'd rather have a stronger frame that was 90g heavier. Cannondale used to have the joke name of Crack'n'fail because so many of their frames failed. So frame failures are an issue in the industry but those Bowman frames take it to a whole new level of danger.
It would be interesting to know which factory manufactured the frames. My guess is the owner went with whichever company quoted the lowest to do the work, and then when the frames arrived in the UK he was so desperate to complete outstanding orders he either didn't check them or hoped that nobody would notice the poor quality.
The Framesets are like Hunt wheels Cero wheels etc etc purchased on mass then imported and sold without inspection or if they do it'll be only one checked over quickly out of the batch!
@@lovecycling193 Hunt wheels get imported built-up? I didn't realise that.
@@thedownunderverse yes chap that's why they have batch/availability dates on their website, they will use OEM factory in say China Taiwan or similar some of the parts will be private molds for rims or programs for hubs, some will be open mold picked out of the factories catalogue of parts etc, then they simply click the amount they need, same as Prime Cosine Scribe Selcof Cero Zuus Bax etc etc etc.
If however you wanted modern wheels built by I pro ide look at Borg Zed Pacenti or a local builder, but just be aware their parts will still be coming from similar factories in China etc. Unless you say order Hope hubs or Royce Chrisking etc etc then you know they are made in the UK/USA or Borg use Miche hubs basically the French version of Hope. Enve on the other hand make their Rims in house and use their own hubs or Chrisking hence the price! Your paying for products from manufacturers who pay their staff a good wage not Factories in China with extremely low low wages!
I literally LOLed here on my couch with your "pen is working"
Scrap the damn thing and let it become dozens of well made, high quality beverage cans.
I'd be interested to know which factory produced this frame so I can avoid them!
I can't see that being a certified frame. I also have my doubts whether that came from Taiwan and I even doubt if its actually 6069 aluminium. I think that is from a very low quality cheap manufacturer perhaps in mainland China, Vietnam, Cambodia etc and then packaged/finished in Taiwan. Alternatively its a factory that bid for a 6069 frame contract and just wasn't capable of making them properly. These frames have to be tested and certified before they are sold in the EU and UK and I cannot see that frame getting past certification so I suspect the certification is fake. If they were selling fake wheels it will be no surprise if its a fake frame too.
Should be pointed out if you paid for a bike using a credit card you should have section 75 protection even if years old. I can't see how anyone wouldn't get fully refunded for this who paid for it with a credit card. Even if they don't have that credit card anymore the credit card company is still liable I believe.
I don't claim to be an expert of aluminium frames but I've seen enough to know that is complete garbage from a third rate ultra low quality factory.
I've seen some low end Bangladesh aluminium frames where the internal seat tube wasn't smooth and minor weld defects etc but those frames are incredibly high quality compared to that frame. I've never ever seen such an appalling aluminium frame in all my life. I'm a bit shocked to be honest.
To think I watched some videos where they actually reviewed Bowman bikes well. My view of David Arthur has dropped considerably unless his review bike was made by a completely different factory. In fact I shall now think of him as David 'Bowman bikes' Arthur.
Wait, Bowman was selling fake wheels???
@RollinRat It's a legal requirement for bicycles sold in the US and Europe and many other countries to be certified so test examples of frames and forks and other components are tested to make sure they comply with the certification. I'm sure its not on the same basis you have stated but they still have to be tested and certified. However there are a lot of fake certs from China. Most reputable brands will validate their certs and push for independent test houses rather than inhouse testing. I don't know the full details of bicycle certification because that wasn't my industry but we had a site license for certification so did look at bicycles certs a few years ago. I honestly can't see that Bowman bike being genuinely tested and certified.
I liked the comparison with the Specialized frame. Could you please keep showing examples of good welds, jobs etc. I didn't really know what you were talking about until I saw the comparison. Learned loads from this video
I have one of these albeit a disc brake version. Loads needed to be faced off the BB shell to make them square. Rear brake mounts also needed loads of facing and also need a shim. Seat tube flares out just where you would want to fix the front mech band. Seat tube also non standard size at this point. Fork tube (CF) also splintered badly when cutting with a CF specific saw blade. Voids in fork steerer. Seat tube reamed with a butter knife. After seeing this I am never riding it again. It’s going on eBay - parts not working.
@RollinRat thanks for your comment. I’ve successfully cut about 5 carbon forks in mytime and trimmed a few carbon seatposts. This was the only one that splintered. There were visible voids in the post and uneven wall thickness. I used a specific carbon cutting blade. No matter how careful you are if the carbon is laid up badly you’re going to have problems. Thanks. Ian Lamb B.Eng
Fantastic, Hambini is literally single handedly transforming the bike industry for the better! Manufacturers and the bike media know that they can't get away with BS or a Hambini roast will haunt them!
Even worse, the bike press giving the reviews and testing of Bowman bikes, such a good write up.
I know. top shilling.
The media prob got a good frame lol
I doubt they would have even checked
Bikes will only be sent to magazines that the manufacturer know they’ll get a good review from 🤷🏼♂️, so most reviews aren’t worth the paper they’re written on.
Was it a coincidence that Mr Bowman was ex Evans and the review was (I believe) in Cycling Weekly, where another ex Evans employee resides….
@@Hambini I do recall back in the day some magazines would do a complete build of the bikes but not anymore
Thanks Hambini. Great work exposing the scam called Bowman. NUMBER ONE QUESTION I WANT TO ASK: WHAT BODY or AUTHORITY IN THE UK IS CHECKING THE MINIMUM QUALITY STANDARDS FOR BIKES or BIKE FRAMES? Hundreds of Bowman branded bikes were sold in this country so far. VERY VERY DANGEROUS !!! Are there other brands like this?
When Hambini does a calm video you know that it must be really bad. Not the usual jokes and piss taking but a serious warning. Obviously wants us to take his words VERY seriously!!!
Recently worked on a gen 1 Palace. Didn't look to close at welds but at a mechanic spotted a few issues. Bb cups (bsa) not threaded the best and facing wasn't great, rear triangle fairly wonky, not terrible but certainly not straight. Rear brake bridge made wrong so had to fit a spacer so that the pads wouldn't touch the frame and get jammed on under heavy braking.
Seat tube clearance very tight, front mech band worn down by a lot from tyre rubbing it.
Cable guides not ideal but not as bad as a bunch of well known brands.
Fork, not sure if a catalogue fork or they got something made for them but had a non standard brake nut in it, that after only a few years looked like something from the bottom of a canal, proper rotten, not made from any decent metal that's for sure.
Rode fine though, didn't notice anything, guess its the newer gens that were the real stinkers.
Great as always. It is always so enjoyable hearing an engineer taking the marketing waffle apart so succinctly, with the visual evidence of wrong doing. Have you considered going into teaching? Kids today could do with learning the appropriate words for such precise engineering terms! Keep up the good work, you always entertain as well as educate. 😁
I do lecture in advanced mechanics and thermofluids.
@@Hambini hope you don’t swear as much 😂😂😂
Do you give lectures on material swear stress🤗
@@Hambini whereabouts? Whatever uni/ school that is they are lucky
@@assaultedpeanut9 skillshare!
Yes, the scream of "HELLO HAMBINI FANS!" is entertaining, but you're providing a real value here too. It's a shame the actual journalists seem to lack a critical eye.
Had one of their frames crack in under 4 months. Then told me I could have to ship back to them and cover VAT to confirm the 4 cracks in the frames that were visible to naked eye
A video like this makes you realise that going with a bigger company frame, even a scavenging one like Specialized, at least gives you some guarantee that you might ride a frame that's safe to use. That Bowman must have been someone's learning project that got mislabeled...
If David Arthur endorsed it, then that is evidence enough to steer well clear of it.
The king of cash for comment.
The fact that he has started his own YT channel shows how profitable it is to be a yes man.
Drinking challenge for this video: down a shot every time Hambini says "penetration" and post your results.
Hambini says "penetration" only 11 times in this video. He starts with 2 mentions at 11:00, then one at 14:50 and then 8 times after 18:15 - which is why I thought he uses that word a lot. But every time it made sense. Once he called it "fusion".
I'm thoroughly depressed now as my frame, Palace 3C, is a a year old and I'm wondering if i should throw it in the skip and start again??
i would take the headset out and have a look, that's the most obvious place to see.
@@Hambini I did as you suggested and it doesn't look half as bad as the example that you showed. Still a little concerned that the welds haven't got full penetration as there's not much evidence of heat penetration within the head tube. Externally the welds look very tidy, no pin holes that I could see, and most things look aligned. The fork steerer appears straight and the wall thickness around the headtube appears uniform. Maybe the welder who worked on my frame had both his eyes and all his fingers??
god, will be carefully checking my palace 3 tomorrow. 😩
So that's look at sample size Vs big issues the frame Hambini cut up was my 60kg mates bike he done 300 miles then the bike fell over hitting his calf denting it beyond repair! My palace is the one that snapped along with two other I know of! Only one of mates gen 3 Bowman's is okay! But after 100 miles of use and our issues he has binned it! Life ain't worth the risk especially at 50mph when wearing Lycra
Interested to see a Fairlight Cycle frame, preferably recent models get inspected. Also a UK brand, now made in Taiwan 👀
Made in Taiwan doesn't mean a thing though. A lot of proper bikes are manufactured there. They do have the know how. It's all up to "How much is the brand paying" and "How much are name brands checking that they get what they paid for". QC is key in any field when outsourcing. Frames like this shouldn't pass to a consumer, let alone consistently reach consumers. They should be sent back to factory. But, with covid going around, I guess delivering goods to customers became more important than their safety. Then again, all of us, being impatient played a part in that.
I keep looking for negative things about Fairlight, and so far all I've found is a lack of rust proofing on the older models (They now apply treatment to all their frames), and some guy who didn't like that it didn't ride like a colnago race bike. Very reassuring.
@@Rikcey agreed, it’s been stressed over and over again by the 5 y/o. Just that I’ve been looking at bikes from that brand. On top of that, I got to know about them through yours truly DA’s channel which also happened to get similar kind of exposure as Bowman. Another point is their bikes are also on pre-order just like Bowman. Like damn, call me superstitious. Jokes aside, I hope they actually deliver instead of what’s happening here.
@@thegrowl2210 me too, but there aren’t much info out there. Glad you found some. Well, that guy is definitely looking at the wrong place if he wanted it to ride like a CF race bike, that bike is almost 9kg built.
I think Bowman wants to be as British as possible - I mean as British as Austin Allegro with this infamous build quality
Wow that is dreadful there was no QC/QA done prior to the frame being shipped. As a MD of a company you would of thought he would of taken time to check where your products are being made and be confident that the quality of thier work matches your expectations and marketing bullshit. Basically he was just wanting to make a quick buck and was willing to pay youtubers and publications to make the bike sound great.
Maybe bowman is trying to one up pinarello with their asymmetrical frame design.😆
I love how it says "made by Neil Webb" on the Bike sticker but on the box literally says welded in Taiwan. Wtf
You walk into that chop shop in Tawain, shout Neil...them you'll see.
Hi Hambini. My BB is fucked. I can see it with the naked eye. Its PF41, and the face of bb hole isnt flat. Where do I go to fix this? Bike shop? Machine shop? How important is the width of the bb shell? As in, do I even have the option of taking material off to flatten it?
Can you get your hands on a 2022 Specialized Allez Sprint frameset and do a review?
Dodged a bullet there. Nearly bought one of those because the reviews in the cycling mags rated Bowman. Phew !
Yup. Me too. When I went to buy they had just closed down, at the time I was really disappointed. Ended up with an aluminium Ridley.
@@andrewrainey291 Oh nice one. I went for a Fairlight Strael & apart from the long wait for it, well pleased
Got a Weald, done about 3000km on it and it's still in one piece so far, might pop fork and BB out for a look before riding again...
Keep an eye on rear chain stays for cracks, I sold mine then the guy who brought it off had the chain stay snap in two! I. Fact that pic is my old frame
@@lovecycling193 I'll get on and build the fairlight, bowman was a bit of a panic purchase when I couldn't get my hands on anything else when my Rose frame cracked...
@@hectorkidds9840 the Fairlight is at least made out of extremely nice steel formed 100% for the job each tube needs! Fantastic frames 👌
Two comments:
1- I understand 6069 requires full heat treatment, including aging, to develop mechanical properties. That is not just stress relieve but a bigger issue.
2- I do not know if specialized asks for full penetration in their welds or if other brands ask for it too. Otherwise a fillet weld is supposed not to have full penetration. But either you have once or the other but you can't have both at the same time. And the seat tube to the bb has not been welded at all.
1. Agree
2. The issue here is the weld bead is much thicker than the tube that is being joined, You can't "not" have full penetration in this instance because the material is thin, the throat of the weld is so large that if you don't get full pen, you won't have put enough heat into the joint. And agree, there are some joints that have no welding whatsoever.
If I had a bike manufacturing company I'd want Hambini heading the QC department. Might not get any bikes out the door but any that did you'd be sure they were top notch.
I like this new incarnation of Hambini. Calm and collected in the middle at least! 😂 I was thinking of buying one of these frames too! Hope my Caad12 is a bit better than this.
You missed that the parts that seem to be misaligned are designed this way. It took years of development and testing to find angles that don't stress the frame at all. Together with the patented geometry this results in a frame that hardly needs to be welded. This explains why the welds are only optical. Still these welds are extremely strong. Notice that the weld of the chainstay is even stronger than the chainstay itself!
Grinder and paint, make you the weler you ain't!
Betcha there are literally millions of bikes and motorcycles with the same 'quality' coming out of Asia.
My holier is not working, it needs a new gas valve, probably fixed next couple of days. Sitting here cold and a bit fed up, Hambuni heats me up with a roasting.
I'm a highly skilled fabricator etc. I used to weld to the highest possible standards.
This is without a shadow of doubt the most dangerous THING I have ever seen created out of metal. It looks likey used a knife and fork as the welding station using a 9 Volt dry cell to power the fucking rig. I also have my suspicion they my have implemented a can opener to cut the aluminium alloy material.
Blue Peter could have easily fashioned a more trustworthy bike frame out of an empty bog rolls. 😂
@RollinRat Bless you mate. I originally trained as a coded welder working on fabricating huge internal crane systems. I then trained and worked in a engineering firm that made high spec fastening solutions for NASA, Rolls Royce, Pratt and Whitney, Cosworth to name a few. I then went to Art School and got an MA Fine Art (Sculpture). I then dabbled in Film as a Art Director and production set designer. Only low budget art house stuff, arty boloxs stuff. For my hobbies since a nipper I raced BMX, XC, then DH and got a small sponsorship. I retired from racing at 40. Im now 54, I have built my own bikes since the age of 12, it the was the only way I could get a bike because I came from a poor background. I only have two bikes now. Dolan track frame built up to a strong 7.5 kg to take the tuff Berlin shitty roads. I also have another single speed bike, All City Nature Boy SSCX pimped up with lovely Ritchey WCS etc. I sport commute in rain wind and snow 5 days a week a round trip of only 31 Kilometres in dangerous as fuck Berlin. At the weekend If my old racer bones let me,I take the Nature Boy in the forest and I start to smile. A simple, budget 4130 double butted frame that's well makes for an unpretentious bike that has withstood 11 years of being punished. She still looks like new. The cheapest frame I've ever had and one I actually love the most. Weird eh...
I really feel sorry for people getting into the many wonderful worlds of cycling, they really do get mugged off the quality has taken a profound nose dive in recent years. Now we see shit like that frame set which is down right dangerous marketed as the dogs bollox. We should count ourselves lucky my friend that we have had quality cycling for most of our cycling days.
@RollinRat Bless you mate, I'm a Brit I moved to Berlin in 2008. The underground electronic music scene and fine art scene is what brought me here. I wish you all the best mate, keep safe and spin to win. 👍💪😁
Suggestion for a video: Buy the cheapest aliexpress aluminium frame you can find. Should be some under $50. Don't try to find some discounted higher end frame or a counterfeit name brand, just the basic bottom of the line from any seller that is trustworthy enough to actually deliver. Most likely it will be a fixie frame. Then get the paint stripped off it, as well as off this bowman, and perhaps a "quality" giant, or merida made frame if someone wants to donate a crashed one to science. Also a frame actually sold by walmart retail stores or whatever the UK equivalent is would be good to compare.
The point is of course, not just to harp on the bowman being bad (we know that already), but to show what the state of the industry really is. We "expect" a frame made by giant to have perfect welding, but honestly I would expect both the Walmart bike and even the aliexpress cheapo to also have perfect (if not pretty) welding. I would be very curious to see if my faith is misplaced that the bowman is an exception in an otherwise good industry. I haven't been around low end bikes much since the 90's, my GT pantera is my el cheapo winter bike, and that's not actually that cheap.
The walmart owners quite like mtb and also quite like not being in court, so wood hope that since the trash of the 90s stuff they used to sell, they've picked up their game.
Decathlon are a load of scum bags (tip, never work for them) but their bikes are mostly pretty good, many low end being manufactured in Portugal or France, maybe a bit heavier but can't remember ever seeing a failure due to defect.
“ on the piss” although very technical lingo, it’s universally understood 😀