This interview is really fantastic in all senses. Van Lommel`s theory of non-location of counsciousness is a paradigm shift which will force revisions and substantial changes in science and medicine, it take some years to be assimilated. Thanks a lot for posting it!
I feel the music in the beginning detracts from the feel of authenticity of a doctor talking about his serious findings, and gives more of a feel of "ooooh this is paranormal/horror movie"
Yet you cannot prove that the music at the beginning detracts from the video content,..because it doesn’t., it enhances it. You choose to limit your consciousness with your familial, cultural, societal, educational, academic programmed bias. Try offloading that restrictive programming,…maybe it will allow you to hear, see, and even speak free of the chains of your stereotypical software.
There is one known case where they stopped the brain activity and withdrew all blood to the brain to stop a fatal brain anurism, while they performed surgery. She had no brain activity confirmed 3 seperate ways. During this time she had the most amazing out of body experience. She described the proceedure, and things that happened during the whole proceedure as well as the experience will all her loved ones. Check out the C2C episode where Ian Punetter reads paragraphs from the book.
I have a friend that mentioned to me that her mother had an NDE (she didn't call it this, this was in the early 1970's before NDE went by this term) at an early age. She said she was among relatives that she did not know. They asked about living relatives. I know that she was a very kind lady. She did not speak about this and I am sorry I had never asked . Ted, I too have to share these beliefs.
@@wantabwriter wow, can't believe I wrote this comment 7 yrs ago now. I have since had a friend just get in a bad car accident. Hit the rear end of a stalled 18 wheeler on i-96 in Detroit. His accident is on TH-cam for WDIV in Detroit news channel. Just happened about 6 months ago. But he died 3 times that night. His son had committed suicide about 5 months earlier. He says his son met him on the other side and told him he had to go back. My friend told him there ain't no way look at my body! It's done. His son said "don't worry I'll take care of that. You'll be OK. You have unfinished work to do." And now he's alive and still recovering today. Broken back, broken neck, punctured lungs, his heart stopped 3 times altogether that night. Legs were broken. But he's not paralyzed and will have a long recovery. Also I have another friend who was at home with his mom and they were waiting for a phone call from the hospital to tell them when his Mom's cousin passed away. They got a call at 11:30 at night. This was when caller ID first came out. The caller ID displayed a number from Rockwood Michigan where we live. It displayed the name of Edith Rose. My friend answered it and he said it sounded like static with chirping sounds but he said that doesn't even describe it. It was a sound he never heard before. But he hung up and his mom asked who called? He said I don't know. Some Edith Rose from a Rockwood number. His mom turned white. She said that was her cousins name before she got married and that number was her number when she lived in Rockwood 9 years earlier. My friend called the number back and a recording said that number was no longer in use and he then called the telephone company and the operator told him that number hasn't been in use since it was Ediths number. The call came at the very minute Edith passed away that night. Somehow she was able to make her old number and name show up on my friends caller ID. I believe every word my friend told me because he said look at the goosebumps on my arm. He gets goosebumps whenever he tells that story. I'm kinda bummed out because I almost died in June of 2018. Spent 16 days in the hospital with a liver infection. I waited to long to go to hospital and my organs were shutting down. But I didn't have an NDE. The cause of my liver infection was an infected tooth. Can you believe that? A damn tooth almost killed me. Take care of your teeth. They're kind of a big deal.
@@tedwlkr8 Enjoyed reading your comment. It may be wishful thinking by me that a part of us survives death. I cannot argue with intelligent people that counter my thinking. They have their science and articulate their points well.Personally I just feel there are too many instances that are outside of the logic that we adhere to. Honest people wanting to convey what has happened to them. By the way, the friend I mentioned: her Mother's name was Edith. Just another coincidence. Take care Ted; brush twice a day.
It is not possible to be unconscious. Consciousness is forever moving and alive. Not remembering dreams or having awareness of a different experience during sleep is choice of the soul. You are immortal! Remember remember remember
We also have the ability within ourselves to heal ourselves, it's called remission and really all it is is a change of heart soul and mind. If a man can cure himself of stage 4 lung cancer anything is possible.!
There is no such thing as death we are energy we were energy before we entered the human body energy also leaves the human body just as it enters it there is no such thing as death
@nickallah: Take the Higgs Boson for example. Searching for the Higgs Boson was one of the major reasons why the LHC was built. Yet the Higgs Boson has never been observed, and in fact the only way we can in theory see it is by the effect it has on things we can observe. Understanding consciousness will have to be done in a similar way, through subjective experience.
It's not impossible.. If They confirm brain death at 12:00pm and confirm it 3 different ways.. No brain activity.. Then when the person is brought back they describe all the activities and they correlate with those who were in the room at the time, that is empirical proof %100.
It seems like "nonlocal" would suggest that time or space are optional, more than not present, and independent options, or space-time oriented, all optionally, along with other optional characteristics or tangents, like mass with or without space, and all the other coo coo quanta behavior...
One possible theory I would like to explore is whether the perception of time passage is slowed as life leaves the brain, then as life re enters the brain, time perception returns to normal. Then explore what brain activity occurs not during the period of cardiac arrest, but just before and after. Another study I would like to see the results of are a comparison of the NDEs of born again christians with other religions and athiests.
@Elhardt Re the Pam Reynolds case, because of the low temperatures used, oxygen usage is slowed. If oxygen is ever completely depleted from the brain then the brain dies. And once it dies, it can't be brought back to life again. The damage is permanent.
His findings are very consistent with the eastern philosophies such as advaita vedanta and buddhism which have always claimed that our true nature is consciousness and that our brain is not the producer of consciousness but just a receiver.
I'm sure it's been considered, but it seems like they're ruling out the possibility that NEDs could be taking place at the onset of cardiac arrest, just before the brain becomes inactive, or perhaps immediately upon resuscitation. I'm intuitively inclined to believe the non-local consciousness interpretation, but I still think it's important to consider all the possibilities in any kind of scientific research.
In my response to the personal message you sent me to I gave you the link of a speaker who proposed a model that was just as simple as the materialist model, and conflicted with none of the things that I mentioned. The view that consciousness is fundamental simply fits the totality of what we know better than the materialist model does. I believe that it should be the preferred scientific model unless new evidence surfaces and changes things.
@darkprose From my own experience with losing consciousness I also know that it really screws up your sense of time and space. In a very real sense, I have first person experience of time travel and teleportation due to fainting. However, I understand enough of how the brain works to realize that my brain just made up about half a minute of experience when I was out. Why? Because I don't remember fainting. I just remember opening my eyes lying on my back and had eye witnesses seeing me collapse.
One question I have is, why isn't this experience more global in terms of resuscitated patients? Just as we would expect to see it more often if it was a purely physiological experience, we should expect to see it in most of the cases of those who were resuscitated after cardiac arrest, no? Yet it still seems to be 10-20% of the cases. There are still so many unanswered questions and problems with this model (as well as the conventional one).
“even IF veridical perception is accurate, what makes you think its not temporary?” If veridical perception was accurate, then what it demonstrates is a fundamental breakdown in mind=brain. At that point by Occam's razor the default position is that it is not temporary and that consciousness endures until we have a reason to believe otherwise.
This is simple to answer but I also struggled with this. If the brain does not create consciousness, then it exists outside the brain. If it is just temporary then it would be hard for people during a near death experience to come back with informaiton about someone's death that would be impossible to know. Some people seen people during their NDE they hadn't even known existed or had even died. I struggled to understand how consciousness can last forever, but if consciousness is quantum process, then we know from quantum mechanics there is no time or space anymore at all. A man had a NDE and met his son who died. The man didn't have contact with the woman who he unknowing got pregnant until he had his NDE and met his son who told him details of what happened and how abandoned he felt. The man didn't know his son existed. was years after he left the woman, implying time doesn't exist and consciousness must last forever.
"Study the law, history, cultural anthropology, communications concentrating on active listening, but most of important of all, be a thoughtful, compassionate, and understanding human being - always be yourself too." ~ Max Rafael Waller
His English and clarity is superb...his consciousness is outside of time and space...is consciousness non locality of time?? Hoe is het mogelijk?? Tot ziens 😊😊 it's time! But not the way we perceive time..oh Jesus!😅😅
“veridical perception has NOT been shown to be happening during complete brain death.” Veridical perception is a subjective experience so in theory it is impossible to 'prove' when exactly it happens, but if somebody can describe what is happening while their brain is inactive, and what they describe can be correlated with reality by others, then we have a ‘timestamp’ for the experience and that is very strong evidence.
@nickallah: In other words inducing the experience through physical means does not invalidate the experience itself or prove that the experience is purely physical in nature. Especially when the experience produces accurate veridical perception, for example, at a time when the brain is inactive, then the view that consciousness is a product of the brain simply fails.
@nickallah: I don't think your physical explanation for reincarnation memories cuts it. If memories are physical as you suggest then you have to explain how something that is supposedly physical endures (sometimes for years) when the brain has long since rotted and decayed, before being transferred to a child (that can live far away).
What started my fascination of this subject was from wondering what are dreams? Clearly we don't "go anywhere" physically so why do some dreams feel and seem so real just like being there? Now the NDE and OBE i am being told are even more real than this real. Meaning NDE patients say that other side felt more real than this reality? They say this feels more like dreaming compared to when they have the NDE/OBE. I honestly don't understand how anyone could not be interested in this subject?
Many many millions of people are brainwashed by authorities whether friends or religious or “scientific” or media or indoctrinating by schools. Most humans are blinded to any potential of realizing the truth very early in life by older deluded souls and it cycles through generations, but truth never really leaves or changes.
it's the most fascinating subject on this planet! it's just many gormless people cannot get their heads around it..until they have an experience themselves and then it all makes sense :)
@nickallah: Frankly the physical model survives by dismissing most of these things, or classifying them as a 'mystery to be solved in the future, before physicalism is proven correct'. This is a form of faith. It's called "promissory materialism". If we look at all the evidence we have as a whole, then I think clearly the dominant model involves consciousness being fundamental.
@nickallah: This is summed up well by Cyril Burt: “The brain is not an organ that generates consciousness, but rather an instrument evolved to transmit and limit the processes of consciousness and of conscious attention so as to restrict them to those aspects of the material environment which at any moment are crucial for the terrestrial success of the individual”
Yes, if the aware study shows accurate perception in a controlled experiment, then materialism is dead. Of course, I already think that materialism is dead because there's been plenty of studies already done on the subject.
Alma 40:11 "11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection-Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life." A verse in the Book of Mormon
@nickallah: The filter model of consciousness can explain everything the classical physicalist model can and more, because it conflicts with none of what we have observed while the physicalist model has. Ex: Accurate veridical perception during NDEs and OBEs, terminal lucidity where people with severe brain damage seemingly transcend that brain damage as they near death, severe hydrocephalus in general, shared near death experiences, psilocybin studies, and much more...
@nickallah: I don't see why it would be any more plausible that such an experience would be that of someone else, and I don't see that as a safe assumption at all. Keep in mind that I favor the filter view of consciousness. My view here is not necessarily that memories before birth were 'erased' at all. The memories still exist, but they are filtered out by the brain. I think that such a mechanism might be needed to live a physical life.
@nickallah: You pointing out that changes in the brain alter consciousness leads me to believe that maybe you do not understand the filter view of consciousness. It works perfectly well with changes in the brain giving rise to changes in conscious experience. The filter view sees the brain as the kind of controller of consciousness. It controls what we are able to experience by filtering conscious experience and thereby structures our experience.
I say that if physical explanations fail to explain consciousness, and accurate veridical perception occurs, then that is all the proof I need for my default position to be that consciousness transcends the brain. Until a physical explanation comes along that does not dismiss accurate veridical perception and other such findings, then I won't even consider physical "explanations" to be a real contender.
I believe our memories are stored in our DNA, which is always growing. Our DNA is our computer; however it is open ended and our memories blend with that of others. Our DNA does not seem to die, IMO. Correct, the brain is the projector, for the movie of life being run through consciousness to the projector (brain).
1 Corinthians 15:55-58 King James Version (KJV) 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
@nickallah: How do you know that consciousness does not predate birth? I don't think that it can be stated that our consciousness began in infancy. Absence of memory does not prove absence of experience. Ex, the fact that you don't remember your dreams when you wake up in the morning does not prove that you had no dreams during the night.
But how do you know that the near death experience, which the patients reported related to that particular time, when their brain was not functioning, and not to the time, let's say, immediately after their brain restarted its functioning?
@nickallah: I hold that this is not something that science can't investigate. In fact I would liken it to quantum physics. There are many theorized particles and dimensions that we have never seen or observed directly, whose existence is merely hypothesized because they're necessary to explain reality.
@nickallah: On the other hand if I say that the brain behaves as a filter, and that consciousness is fundamentally separate from the brain, then there can be evidence for such a statement in the form of reportable experience that correlates with the real world at a time when the brain is not functioning (among other things I have already listed). It’s not a meaningless view, even though it is essentially unfalsifiable if no evidence is shown for it.
@nickallah: The fact that consciousness is altered by changes in the brain (and the other examples you've stated) are just as compatible with the view that the brain acts as a filter for consciousness, not the producer of consciousness. So I don't think such can be taken as evidence for only the mind=brain model, what you speak of is simply a correlation. Correlation does not equal causation.
@nickallah: You've made a lot of assumptions about me. I am not impatiently jumping into anything. In fact I have given this area a great deal of time and thought. There are many differences between the NDE and a DMT experience, but even if you hypothetically found a chemical that could induce a NDE it still would not change the nature of the debate at all. All it would mean is the experience has a physical trigger, but we already knew that as death itself is a physical trigger.
@nickallah: What does the brain filter? Consciousness. How does it support dualism? It views consciousness to be fundamental and separate from the brain. I don’t take the view that subjective experiences are unreliable or to be discounted. The experiences of people do matter when they can correlate those experiences with the real world, as is the case in veridical perception.
@nickallah: There are other ways to show evidence that consciousness is not limited to the brain as well - such as cases of terminal lucidity. Particularly in people with severe brain damage who can’t even remember the names and faces of family members, or hold a coherent conversation.
@KevinSolway You really missed the point. He is referring to physical brain unconsciousness by medical definition but during that time a person is still conscious because their consciousness has left their body. Consciousness is something different than the material body. A brain is clinically dead when there is no electrical activity. Without that, there is no thinking, remembering, experiencing, etc. It doesn't matter if there is "still oxygen in the brain" or whether cells are not dead yet.
If consciousness is not even somewhat a product of a functioning brain, then what is it a product of? Disturbing ideas here, but fascinating, and absolutely necessary. There is so much about the relationship between the brain, body, mind and world that is simply not accounted for by a dogmatically materialist ontology...
@nickallah: Yes it can be proven, at least beyond a reasonable doubt. Ex: If veridical perception during an NDE yields information during the time when the brain was shown to be inactive, then that makes a pretty strong case for consciousness still existing and being able to perceive during the time when the brain is inactive.
@Gnomefro I used to think the same way, but I don't anymore. There is an uncomfortable amount of conscious, cognitive activity in some cases when there shouldn't be according to the paradigm of brain-dependent neuroscience. That can't be explained by recourse to operating processes in the brain similar to drug-induced experiences of oxygen deprivation. I think a Kuhnian shift may be on the horizon.
@nickallah: Something like brain damage which results in reduced cognitive ability or amnesia would be viewed as damaging the filter of consciousness, not damaging consciousness itself. The brain is unable to allow consciousness to be experience in the same way. In this model brain activity correlates with thought by viewing brain activity as the brain’s response to consciousness, not the producer of consciousness.
@nickallah: If somebody makes an unfalsifiable statement that can be shown to be true, then it is not meaningless. Unfalsifiable statements are only pointless when there is no way to gather evidence for them. For example, if I said the world blinks in and out of existence constantly, but we have no way to measure this because any tools we use to measure this also blink out of existence, and thus won’t be able to make the measurement, then it’s a meaningless statement that can never be shown.
@Pilgrim1411 Everything we can see around us is conditional, the world outside, our bodies, in that way our soul would be too, if all things disappear the only things that remains is space, because all other things are impermanent. And space - that is the very essence of everything. Space=awareness.
@nickallah: "the whole point of my "quantum" explanation is to show that I can come up with UNLIMITED unfalsifiable models" It's easy to make unfalsifiable models, my point here is that the value of an unfalsifiable model is equal to how much evidence points towards it. I too (as I've already stated) could make a model that the world blinks in and out of existence, but there can be no evidence for such and the model would be worthless.
@DStrike0083: You're 100% correct, there is NO evidence that specifically points to the mind=brain model of consciousness, and plenty that conflicts with it ;)
Wonderful...to know what is said is also to discriminate the content from the language itself and to see would be to have experience of space and light, relative forms, and even time if movement is involved!
@darkprose "...is simply not accounted for by a dogmatically materialist ontology." We don't even know what anyone means when they say "non-material", nor is there any indication that people who use such terms know what they're talking about. We do know that the virtual machine paradigm can explain why no amount of introspection gives us access to neuron activity though. We also know that the brain does massive information processing and that this is critical to subjective experience.
Wonderful illustration from the Doctor, greatly appreciated. I personally assume that consiousness is meta to material, and resulting brain; But, we still are forced to maintain the ASSUMPTION that our NONLOCAL experiences are real time to the flat lined brain. As insightful as it all is time is still not explained. In meditation with mind turning "inward" clock time will pass faster than experienced time. During OBE with extreme "exspansion" of consiousness the opposite is experienced; clock time will pass slower than experienced time. This means it is possible to have an elaborate experience very quickly before flat lining, and having a memory recall that lines up with a "real-time" experience effect (delusion of time sync). *I do not believe this is what is happening. I feel like Occam's Razor supports the Doctor here, but time is still not explained, per se.
Check out Eben Alexander’s story if time and flatlining blur the lines for you. His brain was flatlined for 8 days and his whole memory was wiped by amnesia right before flatlining and he had an immense conscious awareness during the flatline. His doctors can’t even tell him he’s wrong or hallucinating at all, he had not a damn thing active in his body or brain and he was still existing. Souls are real
@KevinSolway ... And besides NDE's, there's other phenomena that also come into play proving consciousness is separate from the physical body and survives physical death, like past life memories and even the transfer of physical injuries in the form of birth marks or defects from one life to another. That's another big field of research with tons of youtube videos on the subject. A good introduction to that research is discussed by Dr. Jim Tucker in this video --> watch?v=YLKT5UsKoqM
@nickallah: Also, if you discount things such as veridical perception during the NDE, severe hydrocephalus with normal cognition, and terminal lucidity then I would suggest that the physical model is in fact unfalsifiable (to you at least), because everything that would normally falsify it you might declare to be the result of some unknown physical mechanism we have yet to discover before the model is proven correct. This is what I speak of when I say 'faith in materialism'.
nickallah, the things I have listed are not just mysteries, they are gaping holes in the model, and I am not the one arguing for ignorance here. What you argue for is in fact a form of religious faith in materialism. You have branded everything that conflicts with materialism and would be evidence against the materialist hypothesis as a 'mystery to be solved before materialism is proven correct'. This is entirely a belief system of yours that materialism must be correct.
@mrfiddler123 Also, the OBEs experienced during NDE are very similar to those of conventional OBEs. No OBE has ever been proven to demonstrate an accurate detailing of the experience. For example, the Tart studies failed to ever prove accuracy in induced OBEs. If someone can refer me to anything but anecdote concerning veridical experiences, I would be interested to see it.
@mrfiddler123 It has been proven that it is not happening before anoxia because operating room medical staff can corroborate recalled specific information such as when certain comments were said and the medical state of the body. Regarding your second comment on the variety of experiences, going down a path or up a tunnel, are very similar experiences that may be described differently. For example, when you walked down the hallway in your home, was it a tunnel or a path to the bathroom?
@infoment1 The idea of a timeless self is still a difficult one. Consciousness during clinical death does not demonstrate immortality. In my very next comment, I included philosophical solutions as well as religious ones. I just don't think we know enough to rush into it philosophically. I did mention religion first, because that is often the common source of explanation for such anomalies or phenomenon.
@DStrike0083 im afraid there is no way of SHOWING that the dreams or the experiences are indeed happening at the moment of 0 BP and 0 EEG. perhaps EEG is partly responsible for consciousness, and the other part may in fact be a PHYSICAL mystery. EEG may not be the underlying factor for con. I think its a leap to conclusion to say underlying factor for con. is indeed immaterial. it means we need to do MORE research. adresss the q. though, where was con. before the brain? y no memory
@Germanboy567 the truth is unknown, perhaps you mean to say, he is willing to put his career on the line for the pursuit of truth. and THAT I respect him for. and for the fact that he is withholding judgment until results are in. but keep hoping, just dont let wishful thinking override logic.
@AnduinX by your line of logic, everything is a form of faith. we should, with reason, continue to make "physical" assumptions because if not, scientific progress would halt. literally. and miss out on highly probable physical explanations. if we approach every mystery with a supernatural, immaterial conclusion, we can kiss science goodbye all together. so far, our "assumptions" have proven very useful, no reason to stop now, scientific horizons are beyond our vision, we will have to wait. :P
the answer to the mystery of terminal lucidity is something that science will eventually discover.I know this sounds like a classic case of scientism, but take a look around you and compare it to year 1. scientific boundaries are well beyond our vision, weve only begun to unravel the mysteries of the "physical".the "physical" actually refers to everything that exists."non-physical" only describes what it is not.the answer to lucidity lies in the dying process and it holds the key to mental cure.
@nickallah: How would the belief that consciousness is fundamental hinder scientific progress? It wouldn’t even hinder neuroscience, let alone the other branches of science that have absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. The view that the brain acts as a filter acknowledges correlations between mind and brain, and as such the study of such correlations would go on. Science is not dependent on your belief system.
"you are enthusiastically jumping to a conclusion that aligns against your fears of annihilation" This is your assumption, but my position is not fear based. If one thinks about the situation, non-existence is nothing to be feared at all. Your idea of death is not scary, it's dying that is scary. What I and most other people fear - the dying experience, will happen whether consciousness persists after death or not.
@DStrike0083 as far as I know, the study is underway, but you seemed to claim that the study was conclusive and that the patients indeed saw and confirmed the objects placed in a way only visible top view. so far, nothing of the sort, well have to wait and see, Im excited to know the results, but even IF the experiments are successful, we still have a long way to the conclusion for mind brain dualism.
@nickallah: 'Somehow through quantum means' memories travel through time and space from the dead to children. Riiiight. If that's what you're reduced to to defend your views then frankly I have nothing more to say. "res ipsa loquitur" Sometimes I think you mind=brain proponents will accept anything as long as it doesn't allow for survival of consciousness after death. What's the allure here? I don't get it. The glass is either half empty or it's half full, and you're choosing half empty
"so, youre flirting with a possibility that con. might be constructed of NOTHING!" No, I'm flirting with the idea that consciousness is a fundamental element of the universe, probably similar to how you perceive matter to be a fundamental element of the universe. If somebody were to ask you what matter was constructed of, what would you say?
if you could somehow detect con. activity DURING complete and utter brain death, then I may see your point. but it is impossible because the activity is not material. how can you know if the dead brain is experiencing anything since the experience itself is UNdetectable? simply assuming that the experience is happening during brain death is just that, an assumption. besides, shortly after death, the brain is still revivable,it may not be fully dead.try detecting activity during decaying process
@infoment1 I can't agree with either you or Gnomefro -- nothing about this is simple. It is quite simply not simple -- a mystery, anomaly, for present neuroscience. I have no doubt that our paradigms and theoretical frameworks will shift in the future, but to what, I don't know yet. All I think that is certain at this point is that, one, much more rigorous research (and that means PR, political will and funding) is needed, and, two, we can't simply give in to a religious interpretation, either.
If you think it impossible to demonstrate a reality that is not physical through physical means, then you must also think quantum physics to be a pretty silly science. We're spending enormous amounts of money to try to find the Higgs Boson, and yet we will never be able to directly observe it. We can only assume its existence based on the effect it has on what we can observe.
@darkprose "If consciousness is not even somewhat a product of a functioning brain, then what is it a product of?" Of course it's a product of the brain. The entire phenomenology of consciousness reduces to sensory experiences and how these are processed into higher level percepts such as objects and colors. You can even produce such percepts by electrically manipulating the brain. Because we know the source of the content of conscious experience it is easy to dismiss NDEs as hallucination.
When people have see accurately what occurs during a near death experience in a different room to where their body is and medical personnel confirm it as accurate later on it can not be a hallucination
@Elhardt It's easily explainable how people can know what is happening within earshot of where they are laying, but it's wouldn't be so easy to explain people accurately describing details of things happening, say, kilometres, or thousands of miles away. I don't believe there is any convincing evidence to support such things, but I have an open mind about it.
This interview is really fantastic in all senses. Van Lommel`s theory of non-location of counsciousness is a paradigm shift which will force revisions and substantial changes in science and medicine, it take some years to be assimilated. Thanks a lot for posting it!
A lot of these testimonies will come. We are eternal. No time no space.
"Death is the veil which those who live call life: They sleep and it is lifted." - - - Percy Bysshe Shelley
I feel the music in the beginning detracts from the feel of authenticity of a doctor talking about his serious findings, and gives more of a feel of "ooooh this is paranormal/horror movie"
Yet you cannot prove that the music at the beginning detracts from the video content,..because it doesn’t., it enhances it.
You choose to limit your consciousness with your familial, cultural, societal, educational, academic programmed bias. Try offloading that restrictive programming,…maybe it will allow you to hear, see, and even speak free of the chains of your stereotypical software.
There is one known case where they stopped the brain activity and withdrew all blood to the brain to stop a fatal brain anurism, while they performed surgery. She had no brain activity confirmed 3 seperate ways. During this time she had the most amazing out of body experience. She described the proceedure, and things that happened during the whole proceedure as well as the experience will all her loved ones. Check out the C2C episode where Ian Punetter reads paragraphs from the book.
Pam Reynolds was her name
I believe in this. How can someone die and see a relative they never knew of? People have been told were to find a lost family heirloom.
I have a friend that mentioned to me that her mother had an NDE (she didn't call it this, this was in the early 1970's before NDE went by this term) at an early age. She said she was among relatives that she did not know. They asked about living relatives. I know that she was a very kind lady. She did not speak about this and I am sorry I had never asked . Ted, I too have to share these beliefs.
@@wantabwriter wow, can't believe I wrote this comment 7 yrs ago now. I have since had a friend just get in a bad car accident. Hit the rear end of a stalled 18 wheeler on i-96 in Detroit. His accident is on TH-cam for WDIV in Detroit news channel. Just happened about 6 months ago. But he died 3 times that night. His son had committed suicide about 5 months earlier. He says his son met him on the other side and told him he had to go back. My friend told him there ain't no way look at my body! It's done. His son said "don't worry I'll take care of that. You'll be OK. You have unfinished work to do." And now he's alive and still recovering today. Broken back, broken neck, punctured lungs, his heart stopped 3 times altogether that night. Legs were broken. But he's not paralyzed and will have a long recovery.
Also I have another friend who was at home with his mom and they were waiting for a phone call from the hospital to tell them when his Mom's cousin passed away. They got a call at 11:30 at night. This was when caller ID first came out. The caller ID displayed a number from Rockwood Michigan where we live. It displayed the name of Edith Rose. My friend answered it and he said it sounded like static with chirping sounds but he said that doesn't even describe it. It was a sound he never heard before. But he hung up and his mom asked who called? He said I don't know. Some Edith Rose from a Rockwood number. His mom turned white. She said that was her cousins name before she got married and that number was her number when she lived in Rockwood 9 years earlier. My friend called the number back and a recording said that number was no longer in use and he then called the telephone company and the operator told him that number hasn't been in use since it was Ediths number. The call came at the very minute Edith passed away that night. Somehow she was able to make her old number and name show up on my friends caller ID. I believe every word my friend told me because he said look at the goosebumps on my arm. He gets goosebumps whenever he tells that story.
I'm kinda bummed out because I almost died in June of 2018. Spent 16 days in the hospital with a liver infection. I waited to long to go to hospital and my organs were shutting down. But I didn't have an NDE. The cause of my liver infection was an infected tooth. Can you believe that? A damn tooth almost killed me. Take care of your teeth. They're kind of a big deal.
@@tedwlkr8 Enjoyed reading your comment. It may be wishful thinking by me that a part of us survives death. I cannot argue with intelligent people that counter my thinking. They have their science and articulate their points well.Personally I just feel there are too many instances that are outside of the logic that we adhere to. Honest people wanting to convey what has happened to them. By the way, the friend I mentioned: her Mother's name was Edith. Just another coincidence. Take care Ted; brush twice a day.
@@wantabwriter yep, it's not something that can be explained. Can you prove we dream? Everyone does it but can you prove it?
"Who knoweth if to die be but to live….and that called life by mortals be but death?"--- Euripides
It is not possible to be unconscious. Consciousness is forever moving and alive. Not remembering dreams or having awareness of a different experience during sleep is choice of the soul. You are immortal! Remember remember remember
We are !! 😀
Good luck, dr. van Lommel! Never give up! Never.
Free Will is what has allowed my soul to come here to Earth and experience being a human
We also have the ability within ourselves to heal ourselves, it's called remission and really all it is is a change of heart soul and mind. If a man can cure himself of stage 4 lung cancer anything is possible.!
There is no such thing as death we are energy we were energy before we entered the human body energy also leaves the human body just as it enters it there is no such thing as death
Wonderful study of NDE sufferers, I am one of them , thank you so much for understanding us.
i sense great narcissism
God is not the cause of suffering.
@nickallah: Take the Higgs Boson for example. Searching for the Higgs Boson was one of the major reasons why the LHC was built. Yet the Higgs Boson has never been observed, and in fact the only way we can in theory see it is by the effect it has on things we can observe. Understanding consciousness will have to be done in a similar way, through subjective experience.
No problem, glad to hear somebody liked what I wrote :P
Good answers AnduinX ( especially the last one, i.e. the last sentence! )! Thank you, for your contribution.
It's not impossible.. If They confirm brain death at 12:00pm and confirm it 3 different ways.. No brain activity.. Then when the person is brought back they describe all the activities and they correlate with those who were in the room at the time, that is empirical proof %100.
It seems like "nonlocal" would suggest that time or space are optional, more than not present, and independent options, or space-time oriented, all optionally, along with other optional characteristics or tangents, like mass with or without space, and all the other coo coo quanta behavior...
after reading some of the comments I ask myself how many of these people have actually read Van Lommel's article in the Lancet.
Bravo Dr I apriciate your research,keep going.
One possible theory I would like to explore is whether the perception of time passage is slowed as life leaves the brain, then as life re enters the brain, time perception returns to normal. Then explore what brain activity occurs not during the period of cardiac arrest, but just before and after.
Another study I would like to see the results of are a comparison of the NDEs of born again christians with other religions and athiests.
@Elhardt Re the Pam Reynolds case, because of the low temperatures used, oxygen usage is slowed. If oxygen is ever completely depleted from the brain then the brain dies. And once it dies, it can't be brought back to life again. The damage is permanent.
His findings are very consistent with the eastern philosophies such as advaita vedanta and buddhism which have always claimed that our true nature is consciousness and that our brain is not the producer of consciousness but just a receiver.
I'm sure it's been considered, but it seems like they're ruling out the possibility that NEDs could be taking place at the onset of cardiac arrest, just before the brain becomes inactive, or perhaps immediately upon resuscitation. I'm intuitively inclined to believe the non-local consciousness interpretation, but I still think it's important to consider all the possibilities in any kind of scientific research.
I see no inconsistency beteen Pin van Lommel's postions and quantum mechanics
That is still a broad allocation, with more mystery than explanation.
In my response to the personal message you sent me to I gave you the link of a speaker who proposed a model that was just as simple as the materialist model, and conflicted with none of the things that I mentioned. The view that consciousness is fundamental simply fits the totality of what we know better than the materialist model does. I believe that it should be the preferred scientific model unless new evidence surfaces and changes things.
@darkprose From my own experience with losing consciousness I also know that it really screws up your sense of time and space. In a very real sense, I have first person experience of time travel and teleportation due to fainting. However, I understand enough of how the brain works to realize that my brain just made up about half a minute of experience when I was out. Why? Because I don't remember fainting. I just remember opening my eyes lying on my back and had eye witnesses seeing me collapse.
One question I have is, why isn't this experience more global in terms of resuscitated patients? Just as we would expect to see it more often if it was a purely physiological experience, we should expect to see it in most of the cases of those who were resuscitated after cardiac arrest, no? Yet it still seems to be 10-20% of the cases. There are still so many unanswered questions and problems with this model (as well as the conventional one).
“even IF veridical perception is accurate, what makes you think its not temporary?” If veridical perception was accurate, then what it demonstrates is a fundamental breakdown in mind=brain. At that point by Occam's razor the default position is that it is not temporary and that consciousness endures until we have a reason to believe otherwise.
This is simple to answer but I also struggled with this. If the brain does not create consciousness, then it exists outside the brain. If it is just temporary then it would be hard for people during a near death experience to come back with informaiton about someone's death that would be impossible to know. Some people seen people during their NDE they hadn't even known existed or had even died. I struggled to understand how consciousness can last forever, but if consciousness is quantum process, then we know from quantum mechanics there is no time or space anymore at all. A man had a NDE and met his son who died. The man didn't have contact with the woman who he unknowing got pregnant until he had his NDE and met his son who told him details of what happened and how abandoned he felt. The man didn't know his son existed. was years after he left the woman, implying time doesn't exist and consciousness must last forever.
"There is no death. Only a change of worlds." - - - Seattle
"Study the law, history, cultural anthropology, communications concentrating on active listening, but most of important of all, be a thoughtful, compassionate, and understanding human being - always be yourself too." ~ Max Rafael Waller
thank you dr van lommel. thank you.
His English and clarity is superb...his consciousness is outside of time and space...is consciousness non locality of time?? Hoe is het mogelijk?? Tot ziens 😊😊 it's time! But not the way we perceive time..oh Jesus!😅😅
“veridical perception has NOT been shown to be happening during complete brain death.” Veridical perception is a subjective experience so in theory it is impossible to 'prove' when exactly it happens, but if somebody can describe what is happening while their brain is inactive, and what they describe can be correlated with reality by others, then we have a ‘timestamp’ for the experience and that is very strong evidence.
@nickallah: In other words inducing the experience through physical means does not invalidate the experience itself or prove that the experience is purely physical in nature. Especially when the experience produces accurate veridical perception, for example, at a time when the brain is inactive, then the view that consciousness is a product of the brain simply fails.
@nickallah: I don't think your physical explanation for reincarnation memories cuts it. If memories are physical as you suggest then you have to explain how something that is supposedly physical endures (sometimes for years) when the brain has long since rotted and decayed, before being transferred to a child (that can live far away).
What started my fascination of this subject was from wondering what are dreams?
Clearly we don't "go anywhere" physically so why do some dreams feel and seem so real just like being there? Now the NDE and OBE i am being told are even more real than this real. Meaning NDE patients say that other side felt more real than this reality? They say this feels more like dreaming compared to when they have the NDE/OBE. I honestly don't understand how anyone could not be interested in this subject?
Many many millions of people are brainwashed by authorities whether friends or religious or “scientific” or media or indoctrinating by schools. Most humans are blinded to any potential of realizing the truth very early in life by older deluded souls and it cycles through generations, but truth never really leaves or changes.
it's the most fascinating subject on this planet! it's just many gormless people cannot get their heads around it..until they have an experience themselves and then it all makes sense :)
@@Dion_Mustard j
@nickallah: Frankly the physical model survives by dismissing most of these things, or classifying them as a 'mystery to be solved in the future, before physicalism is proven correct'. This is a form of faith. It's called "promissory materialism". If we look at all the evidence we have as a whole, then I think clearly the dominant model involves consciousness being fundamental.
@nickallah: This is summed up well by Cyril Burt: “The brain is not an organ that generates consciousness, but rather an instrument evolved to transmit and limit the processes of consciousness and of conscious attention so as to restrict them to those aspects of the material environment which at any moment are crucial for the terrestrial success of the individual”
I have a question. I had an NDE in my sleep, everything what others described but did not see my body apart from my eyes half closed. Why?
Yes, if the aware study shows accurate perception in a controlled experiment, then materialism is dead. Of course, I already think that materialism is dead because there's been plenty of studies already done on the subject.
Alma 40:11 "11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection-Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life." A verse in the Book of Mormon
@nickallah: The filter model of consciousness can explain everything the classical physicalist model can and more, because it conflicts with none of what we have observed while the physicalist model has. Ex: Accurate veridical perception during NDEs and OBEs, terminal lucidity where people with severe brain damage seemingly transcend that brain damage as they near death, severe hydrocephalus in general, shared near death experiences, psilocybin studies, and much more...
@nickallah: I don't see why it would be any more plausible that such an experience would be that of someone else, and I don't see that as a safe assumption at all. Keep in mind that I favor the filter view of consciousness. My view here is not necessarily that memories before birth were 'erased' at all. The memories still exist, but they are filtered out by the brain. I think that such a mechanism might be needed to live a physical life.
@nickallah: You pointing out that changes in the brain alter consciousness leads me to believe that maybe you do not understand the filter view of consciousness. It works perfectly well with changes in the brain giving rise to changes in conscious experience. The filter view sees the brain as the kind of controller of consciousness. It controls what we are able to experience by filtering conscious experience and thereby structures our experience.
I say that if physical explanations fail to explain consciousness, and accurate veridical perception occurs, then that is all the proof I need for my default position to be that consciousness transcends the brain. Until a physical explanation comes along that does not dismiss accurate veridical perception and other such findings, then I won't even consider physical "explanations" to be a real contender.
I believe our memories are stored in our DNA, which is always growing. Our DNA is our computer; however it is open ended and our memories blend with that of others. Our DNA does not seem to die, IMO. Correct, the brain is the projector, for the movie of life being run through consciousness to the projector (brain).
1 Corinthians 15:55-58 King James Version (KJV)
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
@nickallah: How do you know that consciousness does not predate birth? I don't think that it can be stated that our consciousness began in infancy. Absence of memory does not prove absence of experience. Ex, the fact that you don't remember your dreams when you wake up in the morning does not prove that you had no dreams during the night.
But how do you know that the near death experience, which the patients reported related to that particular time, when their brain was not functioning, and not to the time, let's say, immediately after their brain restarted its functioning?
one nice little experiment could involve the people who are said to no longer have a fear of death. bridge - two bungee chords.
@nickallah: I hold that this is not something that science can't investigate. In fact I would liken it to quantum physics. There are many theorized particles and dimensions that we have never seen or observed directly, whose existence is merely hypothesized because they're necessary to explain reality.
@nickallah: On the other hand if I say that the brain behaves as a filter, and that consciousness is fundamentally separate from the brain, then there can be evidence for such a statement in the form of reportable experience that correlates with the real world at a time when the brain is not functioning (among other things I have already listed). It’s not a meaningless view, even though it is essentially unfalsifiable if no evidence is shown for it.
@nickallah: The fact that consciousness is altered by changes in the brain (and the other examples you've stated) are just as compatible with the view that the brain acts as a filter for consciousness, not the producer of consciousness. So I don't think such can be taken as evidence for only the mind=brain model, what you speak of is simply a correlation. Correlation does not equal causation.
@AlphaSigma10 Two?? How did you pull that off? Are you talking about NDE's assoiated with medical emergencies or OBE's that were similar to NDE's?
Fascinating.
@nickallah: You've made a lot of assumptions about me. I am not impatiently jumping into anything. In fact I have given this area a great deal of time and thought. There are many differences between the NDE and a DMT experience, but even if you hypothetically found a chemical that could induce a NDE it still would not change the nature of the debate at all. All it would mean is the experience has a physical trigger, but we already knew that as death itself is a physical trigger.
@nickallah: What does the brain filter? Consciousness. How does it support dualism? It views consciousness to be fundamental and separate from the brain. I don’t take the view that subjective experiences are unreliable or to be discounted. The experiences of people do matter when they can correlate those experiences with the real world, as is the case in veridical perception.
Thanks very much for finding these facts
@nickallah: There are other ways to show evidence that consciousness is not limited to the brain as well - such as cases of terminal lucidity. Particularly in people with severe brain damage who can’t even remember the names and faces of family members, or hold a coherent conversation.
@KevinSolway You really missed the point. He is referring to physical brain unconsciousness by medical definition but during that time a person is still conscious because their consciousness has left their body. Consciousness is something different than the material body.
A brain is clinically dead when there is no electrical activity. Without that, there is no thinking, remembering, experiencing, etc. It doesn't matter if there is "still oxygen in the brain" or whether cells are not dead yet.
If consciousness is not even somewhat a product of a functioning brain, then what is it a product of? Disturbing ideas here, but fascinating, and absolutely necessary. There is so much about the relationship between the brain, body, mind and world that is simply not accounted for by a dogmatically materialist ontology...
@nickallah: Yes it can be proven, at least beyond a reasonable doubt. Ex: If veridical perception during an NDE yields information during the time when the brain was shown to be inactive, then that makes a pretty strong case for consciousness still existing and being able to perceive during the time when the brain is inactive.
@Gnomefro I used to think the same way, but I don't anymore. There is an uncomfortable amount of conscious, cognitive activity in some cases when there shouldn't be according to the paradigm of brain-dependent neuroscience. That can't be explained by recourse to operating processes in the brain similar to drug-induced experiences of oxygen deprivation. I think a Kuhnian shift may be on the horizon.
@nickallah: Something like brain damage which results in reduced cognitive ability or amnesia would be viewed as damaging the filter of consciousness, not damaging consciousness itself. The brain is unable to allow consciousness to be experience in the same way. In this model brain activity correlates with thought by viewing brain activity as the brain’s response to consciousness, not the producer of consciousness.
@nickallah: If somebody makes an unfalsifiable statement that can be shown to be true, then it is not meaningless. Unfalsifiable statements are only pointless when there is no way to gather evidence for them. For example, if I said the world blinks in and out of existence constantly, but we have no way to measure this because any tools we use to measure this also blink out of existence, and thus won’t be able to make the measurement, then it’s a meaningless statement that can never be shown.
Pimp van Lommel is definitely on to something interesting
@Pilgrim1411
Everything we can see around us is conditional, the world outside, our bodies, in that way our soul would be too, if all things disappear the only things that remains is space, because all other things are impermanent. And space - that is the very essence of everything. Space=awareness.
@nickallah: "the whole point of my "quantum" explanation is to show that I can come up with UNLIMITED unfalsifiable models" It's easy to make unfalsifiable models, my point here is that the value of an unfalsifiable model is equal to how much evidence points towards it. I too (as I've already stated) could make a model that the world blinks in and out of existence, but there can be no evidence for such and the model would be worthless.
@DStrike0083: You're 100% correct, there is NO evidence that specifically points to the mind=brain model of consciousness, and plenty that conflicts with it ;)
Wonderful...to know what is said is also to discriminate the content from the language itself and to see would be to have experience of space and light, relative forms, and even time if movement is involved!
Anyone know when this interview took place?
2013
So interesting.
Interesting But Not Reel............... That's Superstitions................
@@JHNBK go fish
@@stevenmoyers3586 The fish have a consciousness too.............
@darkprose "...is simply not accounted for by a dogmatically materialist ontology."
We don't even know what anyone means when they say "non-material", nor is there any indication that people who use such terms know what they're talking about. We do know that the virtual machine paradigm can explain why no amount of introspection gives us access to neuron activity though. We also know that the brain does massive information processing and that this is critical to subjective experience.
Wonderful illustration from the Doctor, greatly appreciated.
I personally assume that consiousness is meta to material, and resulting brain; But, we still are forced to maintain the ASSUMPTION that our NONLOCAL experiences are real time to the flat lined brain. As insightful as it all is time is still not explained.
In meditation with mind turning "inward" clock time will pass faster than experienced time. During OBE with extreme "exspansion" of consiousness the opposite is experienced; clock time will pass slower than experienced time.
This means it is possible to have an elaborate experience very quickly before flat lining, and having a memory recall that lines up with a "real-time" experience effect (delusion of time sync). *I do not believe this is what is happening. I feel like Occam's Razor supports the Doctor here, but time is still not explained, per se.
Check out Eben Alexander’s story if time and flatlining blur the lines for you. His brain was flatlined for 8 days and his whole memory was wiped by amnesia right before flatlining and he had an immense conscious awareness during the flatline. His doctors can’t even tell him he’s wrong or hallucinating at all, he had not a damn thing active in his body or brain and he was still existing. Souls are real
Like his doctors have no idea how he came back at all. Check out Eben Alexander
@KevinSolway ... And besides NDE's, there's other phenomena that also come into play proving consciousness is separate from the physical body and survives physical death, like past life memories and even the transfer of physical injuries in the form of birth marks or defects from one life to another. That's another big field of research with tons of youtube videos on the subject. A good introduction to that research is discussed by Dr. Jim Tucker in this video --> watch?v=YLKT5UsKoqM
EN ESPAÑOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL COMO LO PUEDO VER EN ESPAÑOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL GRACIAS
@nickallah: Also, if you discount things such as veridical perception during the NDE, severe hydrocephalus with normal cognition, and terminal lucidity then I would suggest that the physical model is in fact unfalsifiable (to you at least), because everything that would normally falsify it you might declare to be the result of some unknown physical mechanism we have yet to discover before the model is proven correct. This is what I speak of when I say 'faith in materialism'.
nickallah, the things I have listed are not just mysteries, they are gaping holes in the model, and I am not the one arguing for ignorance here. What you argue for is in fact a form of religious faith in materialism. You have branded everything that conflicts with materialism and would be evidence against the materialist hypothesis as a 'mystery to be solved before materialism is proven correct'. This is entirely a belief system of yours that materialism must be correct.
@mrfiddler123 Also, the OBEs experienced during NDE are very similar to those of conventional OBEs. No OBE has ever been proven to demonstrate an accurate detailing of the experience. For example, the Tart studies failed to ever prove accuracy in induced OBEs. If someone can refer me to anything but anecdote concerning veridical experiences, I would be interested to see it.
@mrfiddler123 It has been proven that it is not happening before anoxia because operating room medical staff can corroborate recalled specific information such as when certain comments were said and the medical state of the body.
Regarding your second comment on the variety of experiences, going down a path or up a tunnel, are very similar experiences that may be described differently. For example, when you walked down the hallway in your home, was it a tunnel or a path to the bathroom?
@infoment1 The idea of a timeless self is still a difficult one. Consciousness during clinical death does not demonstrate immortality. In my very next comment, I included philosophical solutions as well as religious ones. I just don't think we know enough to rush into it philosophically. I did mention religion first, because that is often the common source of explanation for such anomalies or phenomenon.
@DStrike0083 im afraid there is no way of SHOWING that the dreams or the experiences are indeed happening at the moment of 0 BP and 0 EEG. perhaps EEG is partly responsible for consciousness, and the other part may in fact be a PHYSICAL mystery. EEG may not be the underlying factor for con. I think its a leap to conclusion to say underlying factor for con. is indeed immaterial. it means we need to do MORE research. adresss the q. though, where was con. before the brain? y no memory
@Germanboy567 the truth is unknown, perhaps you mean to say, he is willing to put his career on the line for the pursuit of truth. and THAT I respect him for. and for the fact that he is withholding judgment until results are in. but keep hoping, just dont let wishful thinking override logic.
@AnduinX by your line of logic, everything is a form of faith. we should, with reason, continue to make "physical" assumptions because if not, scientific progress would halt. literally. and miss out on highly probable physical explanations. if we approach every mystery with a supernatural, immaterial conclusion, we can kiss science goodbye all together. so far, our "assumptions" have proven very useful, no reason to stop now, scientific horizons are beyond our vision, we will have to wait. :P
the answer to the mystery of terminal lucidity is something that science will eventually discover.I know this sounds like a classic case of scientism, but take a look around you and compare it to year 1. scientific boundaries are well beyond our vision, weve only begun to unravel the mysteries of the "physical".the "physical" actually refers to everything that exists."non-physical" only describes what it is not.the answer to lucidity lies in the dying process and it holds the key to mental cure.
@nickallah: How would the belief that consciousness is fundamental hinder scientific progress? It wouldn’t even hinder neuroscience, let alone the other branches of science that have absolutely nothing to do with consciousness. The view that the brain acts as a filter acknowledges correlations between mind and brain, and as such the study of such correlations would go on. Science is not dependent on your belief system.
"you are enthusiastically jumping to a conclusion that aligns against your fears of annihilation" This is your assumption, but my position is not fear based. If one thinks about the situation, non-existence is nothing to be feared at all. Your idea of death is not scary, it's dying that is scary. What I and most other people fear - the dying experience, will happen whether consciousness persists after death or not.
What do you think people would say if they were never shown magnets before and you tried to tell them about them.
please explain further. I dont understand what youre getting at.
@DStrike0083 as far as I know, the study is underway, but you seemed to claim that the study was conclusive and that the patients indeed saw and confirmed the objects placed in a way only visible top view. so far, nothing of the sort, well have to wait and see, Im excited to know the results, but even IF the experiments are successful, we still have a long way to the conclusion for mind brain dualism.
@nickallah: 'Somehow through quantum means' memories travel through time and space from the dead to children. Riiiight. If that's what you're reduced to to defend your views then frankly I have nothing more to say. "res ipsa loquitur" Sometimes I think you mind=brain proponents will accept anything as long as it doesn't allow for survival of consciousness after death. What's the allure here? I don't get it. The glass is either half empty or it's half full, and you're choosing half empty
No it's right where it's supposed to be.
"so, youre flirting with a possibility that con. might be constructed of NOTHING!" No, I'm flirting with the idea that consciousness is a fundamental element of the universe, probably similar to how you perceive matter to be a fundamental element of the universe. If somebody were to ask you what matter was constructed of, what would you say?
if you could somehow detect con. activity DURING complete and utter brain death, then I may see your point. but it is impossible because the activity is not material. how can you know if the dead brain is experiencing anything since the experience itself is UNdetectable? simply assuming that the experience is happening during brain death is just that, an assumption. besides, shortly after death, the brain is still revivable,it may not be fully dead.try detecting activity during decaying process
This guy reminds me that US president from GI Joe: Retallation, lol
i subscribed. I want to have NDE-i want to be happy again. I feel so bad.
@infoment1 I can't agree with either you or Gnomefro -- nothing about this is simple. It is quite simply not simple -- a mystery, anomaly, for present neuroscience. I have no doubt that our paradigms and theoretical frameworks will shift in the future, but to what, I don't know yet. All I think that is certain at this point is that, one, much more rigorous research (and that means PR, political will and funding) is needed, and, two, we can't simply give in to a religious interpretation, either.
whats avp?
If you think it impossible to demonstrate a reality that is not physical through physical means, then you must also think quantum physics to be a pretty silly science. We're spending enormous amounts of money to try to find the Higgs Boson, and yet we will never be able to directly observe it. We can only assume its existence based on the effect it has on what we can observe.
When You Pass By Near A Cemetery You Don't See Too Much Consciousness and Activity..................
Just because you don't doesn't mean nobody does
@darkprose "If consciousness is not even somewhat a product of a functioning brain, then what is it a product of?"
Of course it's a product of the brain. The entire phenomenology of consciousness reduces to sensory experiences and how these are processed into higher level percepts such as objects and colors. You can even produce such percepts by electrically manipulating the brain. Because we know the source of the content of conscious experience it is easy to dismiss NDEs as hallucination.
When people have see accurately what occurs during a near death experience in a different room to where their body is and medical personnel confirm it as accurate later on it can not be a hallucination
@Elhardt It's easily explainable how people can know what is happening within earshot of where they are laying, but it's wouldn't be so easy to explain people accurately describing details of things happening, say, kilometres, or thousands of miles away. I don't believe there is any convincing evidence to support such things, but I have an open mind about it.