I can't believe that this hasn't got more views, it's a really good explanation of why we don't like ABA, but said in a much nicer way than I could ever say it.
Thank you again. I am 60, and grew up like that; without the shock therapy, (but with occasional spankings.) Being conditioned, like Pavlov's dogs. It's like your every move is being watched and judged. Every second, you are being watched by others. It teaches you to 'act right' for the other people, but really increases your stress; particularly social stress. Every movement/action is judged. The way you walk, the way you talk, no rocking/stimming. Every interaction with people gives you the intense feeling that everything you do must be perfect. I can't speak to someone for more than 2 minutes, without hearing in my head someone yelling 'look at me when I am talking to you!' You must not embarrass the family. I think this may be why some of us react negatively to even slight criticism. As a child, my whole existence was constant criticism. I am done with acting for everyone else. I retired and am rarely going out of the house. It's the only way for me to relax and not have to pretend to be something I am not.
The only issue is that even those of us who have never received ABA might've received this very same message at home, school, or other places where we are supposed to feel safe being ourselves. The message is that we are not ok just as we are.
I appreciate this video as ABA is being offered for my youngest child. He doesn’t have any destructive stims and we are not looking to change any of his stims. We are only considering working with the organization so as to take advantage of their social groups. You’ve given us more info to consider. Thanks! Side note, my eldest is in the process of getting an Autism Service Dog to include behavior interruption for his skin picking stim. Some of your older videos helped with our research into this option for him.
Hello Nathan. I managed to stumble onto your channel while doing some research on Autism. Oddly enough, I believe you may have gone to school with my son. Anyway I am raising my grandson, who was recently dx, and ABA therapy was one of the many therapies suggested by his physician. My research into it left me confused. This video was so very informative and helpful. Thank you so much.
I was wondering what happened to you. Glad your back. While you were gone, I graduated from my university with computer science degree. Took 26 years but got it
I'm happy to finally see this video! Like I've said before, I have strong feelings on ABA as an autistic myself (although, like you, I was never put through it), and I basically entirely agree with your argument. One aspect of ABA I would like to add is the fact that it -- whether it be implicitly or explicitly -- encourages autistics to mask their identities, which obviously can lead to massive psychological problems. Also, when you have organizations like Autism Speaks -- which have made it their mission to treat autism as a disease that must be eradicated -- supporting it, that says a lot about the practice itself. Anyway, fantastic video, and well worth the wait! I hope to see you soon!
Hey Nathan welcome back! Just wanted to offer some encouragement getting back to making videos with everything else that you've been fighting and working through isn't easy. It will take a while for the algorithm to catch up with you. As someone who's just recently self diagnosed and am realizing how to accommodate myself and rethink how I approach life in a way that doesn't spur me towards burnout I find the advice and validation immeasurably helpful. Thank you
I'm in kind of a unique situation, being both autistic (found out way after college) and having taken both introductory EBA and ABA at university, also having gone through the RBT (registered behavior technician) process after college. No surprise that I left the field after getting that certification because of the second thoughts I was having towards the program and training, but it had me for while. You're right. No matter how much the field tries to eliminate banning punishments and working to cover up the history, the result is the same. The goal is using science to shape a child into what society and their caregivers would deem acceptable and easier to handle. And that's a problem. Well done 👏 and thanks for bringing more attention to this There are a few inaccuracies with your video, but they are so small that it doesn't really matter or take away from the message and main arguments (like pronouncing it behavioral instead of behavior analysis, behavioral analysis is actually something else in the criminal justice field I believe, and describing negative reinforcement as what is actually called positive punishment. Negative reinforcement is taking a negative thing away to increase a behavior, positive punishment is adding a stimuli that decreases a behavior)
The worst thing is that we don't even train DOGS to behave or communicate in ways that are more appealing to humans. Yes, we do teach dogs to respond to commands such as "sit," "stay," "lay down," "leave it, "drop it," "quiet," etc., and then only offer a treat or other desired item once the dog complies with the command. But we don't work with dogs on learning to tolerate being petted, or at the very least, learning to verbalize that it doesn't want to be petted.
Thanks. Clearly identifying that adults’ desires are the basis of their drives for behavior control is a key understanding of what’s actually happened to the behaviorally-modified brain.
I get why people might have issues with ABA, because of its history and also because not all professionals use the techniques properly. But there are skills taught in this method that really help make life easier for autistic individuals themselves, and can even prevent dangerous behaviors (like this one time I helped a girl who ended up in the hospital with a head injury because she'd hit her head on the floor when she didn’t get what she wanted; had behavioral intervention started earlier, it might never have come to that). Those criticizing ABA should really look into the Denver model of early intervention and realize that these days, the best-trained professionals are looking out for the autistic person’s best interests first. Sometimes, they need extra support to pick up skills that will make life easier and are necessary for future tasks. The goal isn't (or at least shouldn't be) to force the kid to be something they're not, to make them mask their autism or anything like that. It's really about expanding their abilities to their fullest potential and reducing behaviors that are harmful to them or others. We're talking about encouraging alternative behaviors that serve the same purpose but don’t hurt anyone.
I want to share about a herbal recommendations I got about Dr Oyalo on TH-cam and his herbal remedy which work perfectly on my sons autism. speech and social skill has improved till now.
This is super interesting! My mom wanted to put me through ABA when she found out I was autistic, but we never got around to it. I always wondered what it actually was
I went from chewing my hand/wrist, to chewing my shirt or sweatshirt sleeve, to chewing my hair, to chewing the inside of my cheeks (still have a habit of doing this), and then finally accomodating myself by chewing gum or a chewy necklace
So I've heard people say like autistic men have trouble reading signals on dates. I've also heard women complain about some (not all) autistic men saying sexually inappropriate things on dates. I've also heard people say autistic men are much happier when they focus on a career, or a hobby, or forming friendships and give up on dating. I don't think harassing women is okay, but we've been taught this way of interacting by the media and culture. I had a situation happen when I had to apologize for saying something inappropriate on a date. So far as I could tell the apology was accepted. I became like obsessive and texted her every minute of the day, and then our relationship (even our friendship) was over. I have not had another relationship since.
nice to see you back doing videos. yeah, i always thought that electric shock therapy was always brutal and totally unacceptable as a therapy treatment. i always thought that it would do more harm then good. when therapists use conversion therapy on gay people, the therapists are making a mockery out of themselves and their profession.
Negative reinforcement is a removal of an unpleasant stimuli from the envierment in order to encrease the frequency of a certain behaveour. On the other hand there are both pos. and neg. punisment, that are not a punisment in the regular vocabulary sence. Speaking of pos. P, it is an addition of such a stimuli as a consiquence of behaveour, that lowers the frequency of the behaveour. Neg. P is, apparenly is a removal of some pleasent stimuli from the enviroment in order to decreace the frequency of the behaveour. Basically nothing specifically about spanking, shocking, yelling, or kicking.
Yes this video is so true! Besides for just 1 little thing, your -R example 😅 The example u gave, telling a dog to sit, they don't sit, so u smack them, would be a +P (positive punishment). Because you're Adding a negative stimulus. -R is when something unpleasant/uncomfortable/painful is taken way to increase desired behavior & decrease the negative behavior. So this example would be, a dog pulls on a prong, it hurts or is uncomfortable, so therefore the dog comes back to a heel & stops pulling taking away the unpleasant feeling. (It's negative reinforcing because the pain/discomfort only stops when they do what is wanted) It's just a little thing u got mixed up, the dog trainer in me just needed to clarify it tho 😅 and example with people (this isn't a real situation bc I can't think of one I work with dogs lol 😅), but would be if like u pitched a person for doing something unwanted, but the moment they start doing what u want, u release the pinch. A smack would be a +P, which is adding in a negative stimulus in hopes to decrease a negative behavior or physically correct or punish an unwanted behavior. But great video!
My son (stepson technically but not emotionally) did the chewing thing on his blanket. The thing was nothing but a huge hole by the time he gave it up. lol
I want to share about a herbal recommendations I got about Dr Oyalo on TH-cam and his herbal remedy which work perfectly on my sons autism. speech and social skill has improved till now.
Wish my child had never done it. I feel awful about it. It was the gold standard…the only therapy we could get covered. Everyone said it would be really important. It did teach my child how to be in a classroom (sort of) but my god just let people be who they are. No need to fix anything when your child is absolutely perfect just the way they are. Keep in mind, parents want what’s best for their child and we don’t always trust our instinct. I think deep within us, at least for me, our instinct is to let our child just be. I think a lot of parents of autistic children also know deep down that when our children do something that seems inappropriate or unkind that he/she learned it from the messed up neurotypical world. So much of what the mainstream puts out is so toxic. My child was harmed by school and the world and the ridiculous expectations placed on him. If your child is just being diagnosed, I caution you against ABA. There are other ways. But the world won’t make it easy no matter what route you choose.
This isn't what positive and negative reinforcements are defined as in psychology. Hitting is positive reinforcement because you are giving something to them. Not getting a treat is negative reinforcement because you took away something
I assume what u meant to say, is hitting is a positive punishment (u said positive reinforcement which is rewarding for desired behaviors)... And not getting a treat is a -P (negative punishment) because you are taking away a reinforcer in hopes to increase desired behavior which then they get the +R... For dogs this example would be, they bolt out the door as soon as u open, so u put them on a leash, slowly open the door, the moment they try to bolt out u shut the dog (-P, taking away the desired outcome for the dog), but then the moment they sit u reopen the door, this time they don't bolt out, so u let them go for the walk which in return turns to the +R. Neather +R or -P touch or correct a dog physically unlike +P and -R... Looks like u need to reread those psychology books some... But I assume when u said positive reinforcement u meant to say positive punishment. The last bit is still incorrect though.
Also for good measure, a -R is taking away a unpleasant stimulus in hopes to increase good behavior. So this example would be, a dog pulls on a prong, it hurts, therfor they come back to heel, taking away the discomfort & negatively reinforcing that they can't pull. An example for humans (although not a real life one bc I work with dogs 😂), would be u pinch someone bc they won't do what u want or bc they're doing an unwanted behavior, and u only release the pinch once they do what u want.
@@ChronicallyRollingWithIt Nope, using a prong is punishment. Remember, Negative and positive reinforcement both are use to INCREASE behavior. Punishment is to REDUCE a behavior. The addition of an aversive stimulus to get pulling to stop is PUNISHMENT, not negative reinforcement. It is positive punishment. The REMOVAL of the aversive stimulus (prong) happens to get the heel behavior to INCREASE is Negative reinforcement. And yes, both can happen in such a short span of time. That is why timing is so important. But remember, Punishment has been shown not to work. It would be better to use negative reinforcement WITHOUT the punishment.
Actually you confused Negative Reinforcement with Punishment. They are two different things. Negative reinforcement is the *removal* of a stimulus to get a behavior to INCREASE. Punishment is the addition or removal of an aversive stimulus to get a behavior to DECREASE. The term positive is the addiction of a stimulus and the term negative is the removal of a stimulus and both are to get a behavior to increase. Positive punishment is the addition of a stimulus to get a behavior to decrease, and negative punishment is the removal of a stimulus to get a behavior to decrease. The key is the INCREASE or DECREASE of the behavior. (this is oversimplified, but important) The Shock was punishment , NOT negative reinforcement.
@@Rae-eu1zb Yes, you can break punishment down into positive and negative punishment. Not writing the entire method in a comment changes nothing. The shock was still punishment and nothing I said was incorrect.
When you are on the receiving end, the semantics aren't really much comfort to the victims as they are to the abusers. Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.
The only thing that could actualy works is things that measures brain connectivity thst could cause those behaviours in infancy. Neurofeedback improve my symptoms drastically because of that. ABA doesn't improve how your brain is wired.
I can't believe that this hasn't got more views, it's a really good explanation of why we don't like ABA, but said in a much nicer way than I could ever say it.
Thank you again. I am 60, and grew up like that; without the shock therapy, (but with occasional spankings.) Being conditioned, like Pavlov's dogs. It's like your every move is being watched and judged. Every second, you are being watched by others. It teaches you to 'act right' for the other people, but really increases your stress; particularly social stress. Every movement/action is judged. The way you walk, the way you talk, no rocking/stimming. Every interaction with people gives you the intense feeling that everything you do must be perfect. I can't speak to someone for more than 2 minutes, without hearing in my head someone yelling 'look at me when I am talking to you!' You must not embarrass the family. I think this may be why some of us react negatively to even slight criticism. As a child, my whole existence was constant criticism. I am done with acting for everyone else. I retired and am rarely going out of the house. It's the only way for me to relax and not have to pretend to be something I am not.
The only issue is that even those of us who have never received ABA might've received this very same message at home, school, or other places where we are supposed to feel safe being ourselves. The message is that we are not ok just as we are.
It is a very problematic practice
I appreciate this video as ABA is being offered for my youngest child. He doesn’t have any destructive stims and we are not looking to change any of his stims. We are only considering working with the organization so as to take advantage of their social groups. You’ve given us more info to consider. Thanks! Side note, my eldest is in the process of getting an Autism Service Dog to include behavior interruption for his skin picking stim. Some of your older videos helped with our research into this option for him.
Hello Nathan. I managed to stumble onto your channel while doing some research on Autism. Oddly enough, I believe you may have gone to school with my son. Anyway I am raising my grandson, who was recently dx, and ABA therapy was one of the many therapies suggested by his physician. My research into it left me confused. This video was so very informative and helpful. Thank you so much.
I was wondering what happened to you. Glad your back.
While you were gone, I graduated from my university with computer science degree. Took 26 years but got it
I'm happy to finally see this video! Like I've said before, I have strong feelings on ABA as an autistic myself (although, like you, I was never put through it), and I basically entirely agree with your argument. One aspect of ABA I would like to add is the fact that it -- whether it be implicitly or explicitly -- encourages autistics to mask their identities, which obviously can lead to massive psychological problems. Also, when you have organizations like Autism Speaks -- which have made it their mission to treat autism as a disease that must be eradicated -- supporting it, that says a lot about the practice itself.
Anyway, fantastic video, and well worth the wait! I hope to see you soon!
Hey Nathan welcome back! Just wanted to offer some encouragement getting back to making videos with everything else that you've been fighting and working through isn't easy. It will take a while for the algorithm to catch up with you. As someone who's just recently self diagnosed and am realizing how to accommodate myself and rethink how I approach life in a way that doesn't spur me towards burnout I find the advice and validation immeasurably helpful. Thank you
I'm in kind of a unique situation, being both autistic (found out way after college) and having taken both introductory EBA and ABA at university, also having gone through the RBT (registered behavior technician) process after college. No surprise that I left the field after getting that certification because of the second thoughts I was having towards the program and training, but it had me for while.
You're right. No matter how much the field tries to eliminate banning punishments and working to cover up the history, the result is the same. The goal is using science to shape a child into what society and their caregivers would deem acceptable and easier to handle. And that's a problem. Well done 👏 and thanks for bringing more attention to this
There are a few inaccuracies with your video, but they are so small that it doesn't really matter or take away from the message and main arguments (like pronouncing it behavioral instead of behavior analysis, behavioral analysis is actually something else in the criminal justice field I believe, and describing negative reinforcement as what is actually called positive punishment. Negative reinforcement is taking a negative thing away to increase a behavior, positive punishment is adding a stimuli that decreases a behavior)
The worst thing is that we don't even train DOGS to behave or communicate in ways that are more appealing to humans. Yes, we do teach dogs to respond to commands such as "sit," "stay," "lay down," "leave it, "drop it," "quiet," etc., and then only offer a treat or other desired item once the dog complies with the command. But we don't work with dogs on learning to tolerate being petted, or at the very least, learning to verbalize that it doesn't want to be petted.
Thanks.
Clearly identifying that adults’ desires are the basis of their drives for behavior control is a key understanding of what’s actually happened to the behaviorally-modified brain.
The carrot becomes the stick in positive behaviour therapy. It's damaging no matter what people try to say positively!
I get why people might have issues with ABA, because of its history and also because not all professionals use the techniques properly. But there are skills taught in this method that really help make life easier for autistic individuals themselves, and can even prevent dangerous behaviors (like this one time I helped a girl who ended up in the hospital with a head injury because she'd hit her head on the floor when she didn’t get what she wanted; had behavioral intervention started earlier, it might never have come to that). Those criticizing ABA should really look into the Denver model of early intervention and realize that these days, the best-trained professionals are looking out for the autistic person’s best interests first. Sometimes, they need extra support to pick up skills that will make life easier and are necessary for future tasks.
The goal isn't (or at least shouldn't be) to force the kid to be something they're not, to make them mask their autism or anything like that. It's really about expanding their abilities to their fullest potential and reducing behaviors that are harmful to them or others. We're talking about encouraging alternative behaviors that serve the same purpose but don’t hurt anyone.
I want to share about a herbal recommendations I got about Dr Oyalo on TH-cam and his herbal remedy which work perfectly on my sons autism. speech and social skill has improved till now.
This is super interesting! My mom wanted to put me through ABA when she found out I was autistic, but we never got around to it. I always wondered what it actually was
This is a very articulate and concise explanation of the problem with ABA. Thank you sir.
I went from chewing my hand/wrist, to chewing my shirt or sweatshirt sleeve, to chewing my hair, to chewing the inside of my cheeks (still have a habit of doing this), and then finally accomodating myself by chewing gum or a chewy necklace
Great to see the show back! Been with the channel since Cap Obvious.
So I've heard people say like autistic men have trouble reading signals on dates. I've also heard women complain about some (not all) autistic men saying sexually inappropriate things on dates. I've also heard people say autistic men are much happier when they focus on a career, or a hobby, or forming friendships and give up on dating. I don't think harassing women is okay, but we've been taught this way of interacting by the media and culture. I had a situation happen when I had to apologize for saying something inappropriate on a date. So far as I could tell the apology was accepted. I became like obsessive and texted her every minute of the day, and then our relationship (even our friendship) was over. I have not had another relationship since.
nice to see you back doing videos. yeah, i always thought that electric shock therapy was always brutal and totally unacceptable as a therapy treatment. i always thought that it would do more harm then good. when therapists use conversion therapy on gay people, the therapists are making a mockery out of themselves and their profession.
Negative reinforcement is a removal of an unpleasant stimuli from the envierment in order to encrease the frequency of a certain behaveour. On the other hand there are both pos. and neg. punisment, that are not a punisment in the regular vocabulary sence. Speaking of pos. P, it is an addition of such a stimuli as a consiquence of behaveour, that lowers the frequency of the behaveour. Neg. P is, apparenly is a removal of some pleasent stimuli from the enviroment in order to decreace the frequency of the behaveour. Basically nothing specifically about spanking, shocking, yelling, or kicking.
Very nicely explained, matey! Except it is not electroshock therapy, it is shock torture now.
Yes this video is so true! Besides for just 1 little thing, your -R example 😅 The example u gave, telling a dog to sit, they don't sit, so u smack them, would be a +P (positive punishment). Because you're Adding a negative stimulus. -R is when something unpleasant/uncomfortable/painful is taken way to increase desired behavior & decrease the negative behavior. So this example would be, a dog pulls on a prong, it hurts or is uncomfortable, so therefore the dog comes back to a heel & stops pulling taking away the unpleasant feeling. (It's negative reinforcing because the pain/discomfort only stops when they do what is wanted) It's just a little thing u got mixed up, the dog trainer in me just needed to clarify it tho 😅 and example with people (this isn't a real situation bc I can't think of one I work with dogs lol 😅), but would be if like u pitched a person for doing something unwanted, but the moment they start doing what u want, u release the pinch. A smack would be a +P, which is adding in a negative stimulus in hopes to decrease a negative behavior or physically correct or punish an unwanted behavior. But great video!
OT (occupational therapy) can be helpful for sensory input, and for certain stimulatory behaviors. My parents put me in OT when I was growing up.
👏👏👏👏 everyone should watch this
Welcome back, Nathan! I don't have anything else to say in this comment, but it would feel awkward if it were just three words, so here you go.
Holy shite you're back
My son (stepson technically but not emotionally) did the chewing thing on his blanket. The thing was nothing but a huge hole by the time he gave it up. lol
I want to share about a herbal recommendations I got about Dr Oyalo on TH-cam and his herbal remedy which work perfectly on my sons autism. speech and social skill has improved till now.
Your shirt - do you live in Iowa? Because same and I am also being held captive in this state full of miles and miles of corn
Wish my child had never done it. I feel awful about it. It was the gold standard…the only therapy we could get covered. Everyone said it would be really important. It did teach my child how to be in a classroom (sort of) but my god just let people be who they are. No need to fix anything when your child is absolutely perfect just the way they are. Keep in mind, parents want what’s best for their child and we don’t always trust our instinct. I think deep within us, at least for me, our instinct is to let our child just be. I think a lot of parents of autistic children also know deep down that when our children do something that seems inappropriate or unkind that he/she learned it from the messed up neurotypical world. So much of what the mainstream puts out is so toxic. My child was harmed by school and the world and the ridiculous expectations placed on him. If your child is just being diagnosed, I caution you against ABA. There are other ways. But the world won’t make it easy no matter what route you choose.
thank you for sharing
This isn't what positive and negative reinforcements are defined as in psychology.
Hitting is positive reinforcement because you are giving something to them.
Not getting a treat is negative reinforcement because you took away something
Punishment and Reward is the dichotomy being talked about in this vid
I assume what u meant to say, is hitting is a positive punishment (u said positive reinforcement which is rewarding for desired behaviors)... And not getting a treat is a -P (negative punishment) because you are taking away a reinforcer in hopes to increase desired behavior which then they get the +R... For dogs this example would be, they bolt out the door as soon as u open, so u put them on a leash, slowly open the door, the moment they try to bolt out u shut the dog (-P, taking away the desired outcome for the dog), but then the moment they sit u reopen the door, this time they don't bolt out, so u let them go for the walk which in return turns to the +R. Neather +R or -P touch or correct a dog physically unlike +P and -R... Looks like u need to reread those psychology books some... But I assume when u said positive reinforcement u meant to say positive punishment. The last bit is still incorrect though.
Also for good measure, a -R is taking away a unpleasant stimulus in hopes to increase good behavior. So this example would be, a dog pulls on a prong, it hurts, therfor they come back to heel, taking away the discomfort & negatively reinforcing that they can't pull. An example for humans (although not a real life one bc I work with dogs 😂), would be u pinch someone bc they won't do what u want or bc they're doing an unwanted behavior, and u only release the pinch once they do what u want.
@@ChronicallyRollingWithIt thanks
@@ChronicallyRollingWithIt Nope, using a prong is punishment. Remember, Negative and positive reinforcement both are use to INCREASE behavior. Punishment is to REDUCE a behavior. The addition of an aversive stimulus to get pulling to stop is PUNISHMENT, not negative reinforcement. It is positive punishment. The REMOVAL of the aversive stimulus (prong) happens to get the heel behavior to INCREASE is Negative reinforcement. And yes, both can happen in such a short span of time. That is why timing is so important. But remember, Punishment has been shown not to work. It would be better to use negative reinforcement WITHOUT the punishment.
Wow i had no idea this was a thing. The world truly is in shambles with no chance of getting better
Actually you confused Negative Reinforcement with Punishment. They are two different things. Negative reinforcement is the *removal* of a stimulus to get a behavior to INCREASE. Punishment is the addition or removal of an aversive stimulus to get a behavior to DECREASE. The term positive is the addiction of a stimulus and the term negative is the removal of a stimulus and both are to get a behavior to increase. Positive punishment is the addition of a stimulus to get a behavior to decrease, and negative punishment is the removal of a stimulus to get a behavior to decrease. The key is the INCREASE or DECREASE of the behavior. (this is oversimplified, but important) The Shock was punishment , NOT negative reinforcement.
Punishment is the addition of aversive stimuli or the removal of a positive one to decrease a behaviour.
@@Rae-eu1zb Yes, you can break punishment down into positive and negative punishment. Not writing the entire method in a comment changes nothing. The shock was still punishment and nothing I said was incorrect.
When you are on the receiving end, the semantics aren't really much comfort to the victims as they are to the abusers. Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.
Thank you.
how do you communicate wiith non-veerbal children?
The only thing that could actualy works is things that measures brain connectivity thst could cause those behaviours in infancy. Neurofeedback improve my symptoms drastically because of that.
ABA doesn't improve how your brain is wired.
hi spirit :)
Should we celebrate Autistic Pride day on June 18th? Why or why not?