As some one who has a music degree and has also written jingles and pop songs, I can answer the question, why do the academics get angry at you for doing deep-dive videos? Because you’re so much better at teaching it than they are. You’re showing them up. People like you, Ryan Leach, Rick Beato, Paul Thompson - I’ve learned far more, far better from you than I did in college or even OTJ in Nashville studios. The cream rises to the top, and there’s no longer anyone to hold you down so they can keep their vaunted position which they earned by playing the academic game rather than by being great teachers.
Rick beato is an actual legend. If it wasn't for him I wouldn't understand musical keys or modes or even chord structure. The man is a wonderful resource. And so is this person I just found her channel today while I'm at work lol so I got my headphones and and just learning as I go xD
They also want success to be dictated by their (supposedly high) standards and it is not. It is talent/originality/creativity (and timing) driven, no formal education required.
It's because they showed up to the live gig 15 mins before the show starts, after the house has opened and an hour after the sound check was supposed to be complete. They don't have time to bring the root notes in from their car/van.
That root note is usually imagined by the listener and that's what engages and rewards them. This quality is also what allows Jazz and other similar (world) music to have longer shelf life.
I live by Rick Beato's philosophy of music theory being simply a way to name the things you hear. Another wise thing I heard from a music school colleague once: "music dictates music theory but music theory doesn't dictate music."
Not to sum up anything else you said in your video, but I like to hear that message every so often of (more or less bluntly) "always be humble and check your ego at the door" - one of the most valuable lessons I learned in academia honestly. Side note: thanks for speaking up for us millennials there near the end!
It's insane how mature you are while being so young. I might have needed half of my life to get near your wisdom. Please spread it around and never stop. It's incredibly refreshing.
I love how you're not only in a power position, but you're using your experience and platform to break down the system one myth at a time.🔥 I wish your videos were around 20 years ago. Would have saved my sanity in music school. I remember saying that I liked 50 Cent and a violinist was like, 'I didn't know the symphony orchestra was lowering their standards for good brass players'. I cold turkeyed on music after graduating. Thank you for this F the system video 🤘🙏
About 5 years ago I went into piano store and discussed with the owner (guy who was about 55) about electric piano and played him a Piano peace I composed from My MP3 player. He was impressed saying "This is very good" but then asked what university did I go to and I said "none I'm self tought" and His face dropped in shock and said "Right well I cant help you, piano is not for you, goodbye" and waved his hand to the door, for Me to leave.
“Who decides what’s good?” The listener. It doesn’t matter if it is a music theory masterpiece or the biggest mess of theory to ever exist. If people like it then it is good
Tristan like you I’m deeply impressed. But by that wonderful combination of experience and (controlled but real) feelings. Yeah, the presentation is great. AK is a Professorin now.
The problem with most film music academics is that it's more about your arguments for why you write something than the real thing you're expressing in music. The latter ensures that it is more about the technique than the music. You are right that expensive education is no guarantee of success. What you do in practice, including the awards, makes you.
Very well said! When I first got into classical music I went through a phase of evaluating all music based on qualities of Stravinsky - but that was such an adolescent and foolish way to look at music. There's a heart within most music that goes well beyond any theory. I would say one big thing "theory" has helped me with is being able to understand and dissect other people's music, and quickly - which has definitely helped me massively with composing and conducting. You can learn more from studying other people's music than any textbook can teach you! Loving this channel, thanks for sharing
Simply not true. Both methods are worthwhile. To say that textbooks and courses have no value is just as close minded as the people and institutions you are disparaging.
Well said, Oscar! I think you are saying that textboook theory helps with the more important learning from other people's music. I'm struck though, by Anne-Kathrin's point about using modal interchange intuitively. Inspiration and intuition are even more important. I wonder if music theory or listening to other peoples music helps with that?
here goes a token of my appreciation, and a middle finger to all those elitists that told you that you can't give it away for free. For me music is a hobby for which I wouldn't pay the price of a degree, both in time and money. I'm learning so much with resources like your channel and other similar ones. My contribution is just a small thing to encourage you to continue. I assume there are young people who are also learning with your channel and have a brilliant future in music. Thanks Anne-Kathrin!
OMG this is a must watch for everyone not just students not just musicians. I already appreciated and respected you but this takes you to another level. Thank you so much for doing this for all of us.
I suppose it's just in my generation's nature to challenge the systems in place... The more people speak up, the sooner things can evolve into something better.
"I have a problem with that." Anyone with a shred of human decency should have a problem with that. Cheers for this video, elitism and gate-keeping are such out-moded mentalities. Write what you want to write, like what you want to like, and just let the bitter people fade into oblivion. 💙
I was an above average technical player when I was 18. I went for an audition for a scholarship at Berkeley. The people at that table were condescending and dismissive. The head of the guitar department wanted to get me in, but was overruled. It set up this false narrative in my head for years that I wasn't good enough. I can't help but think how different things might have gone if I'd been able to get the education. Ps... I'm really enjoying your videos. Thank you for making them.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. When I went to college (back in the 70's) I started with a double major...music (voice and piano) and psychology. The very first class I went to in the music department was for all music students, and the subject was basically "Are you good enough to be here?" The professor made it clear that many of us were not talented enough to major in music (even though he hadn't a clue of what we were capable of). Turned out the name of the department should have been "Music and Egotism". The level of elitism was suffocating. And to make it worse, my male voice teacher sexually harassed me during EVERY voice lesson with constant innuendo and off-color comments. He was possibly three times my age, and even invited me to his home (not as part of a group). I dropped the music major after the third semester and continued with psychology, eventually getting degrees in both Clinical and School Psychology, and having a great career. I've written music all my life, and now that I'm retired I'm learning music production from you and many other wonderful people sharing their knowledge and experience on YT. Thank you!!
Thank you so much for this video, it‘s very inspirational. My dreams of becoming a Tonmeister and creating Music in general shattered at the entrance exams and I turned my back on music for many years. With your content and the way you present it, you inspire and motivate me to be creative again. Which is the most important thing for me with any teacher. And on top of that, there is brilliant information, structured in a way that makes the topics more accessible to me.
Wow! Your major poins are so true in almost any of so called academic art education. Not just music. Coming from field of architecture this sounds almost too familiar. Small group of elitists defines what's good and what's not. When at university in our first year, we were kind of separated in two groups: those who are bad and those who had "talent". The judgement was not done regarding Your skills. It was done looking at Your personal style: do You look like an architect? and speak like an architect? It kind of opened my eyes about academic art education. I have witnessed it too many times, if You serve the elitist continuum and fit in that or if You have connections, You can publish anything that has difficult words and complicated sentences as an academic paper even if there's no sense in it and no one can understand your thinking. The ones who speak clearly and can make the common understand their point are considered heretic and dangerous by the elite. Sometimes it has even qualities of a religious cult. I think there's not one sacred truth in what's art, music or architecture. There are many of truths in all of those. There are many ways of looking at things or hearing things. This is why I don't want to teach at academic level.
Hi Anne-Kathrin. I live in Italy and here everybody can freely have access to every kind of school, conservatory, university. In Italy the school is 90% public and in the public school you can find the highest level teachers. Nobody in Italy has never been told "you are too poor to study with us". I'm a "jazz composition" teacher in the italian conservatory and, obviously, we have entrance tests, but we also have pre-academic classes in order to offer education even at a basic level. And I can say without any doubt that most of our students reach a very good level when they complete their "academic journey" with us and some of them have already become wonderful professional musicians (both instrumentalists and arrangers-composers). I'm so sorry when I hear that academic educations kills creativity. It's the exact opposite! Me, as a teacher, I always try to find ways to encourage my students in being creative! Academics absolutely don't kill creativity; I'd better say bad teachers kill creativity! Thank you for your very good and interesting videos! All the best! Vito Andrea Morra from Bari (Italy).
I've only been composing for about 5 years, but I've developed a passion for it. However, at the age of 60 I'll not be going back to University, so I rely on channels like yours to fill in the gaps in my knowledge. Your channel is by far the best in my opinion - you just tell it like it is. I watch other channels, such as Rick Beato, but he can be somewhat elitist - he has his conceptions about what a "proper" song is and if it doesn't meet his criteria then it's garbage. I believe that music is more than the sum of it's parts and that if a piece of music makes you feel something, then it's done it's job. I'm not completely ignorant when it comes to music theory, I've been a gigging musician for over 40 years. When I look back at my earlier work, I often prefer it to what I'm currently doing. When I first started, I went out of my way to break as many musical rules as I could get away with and still have it sound coherent. Most of it didn't work, but every now and again I'd come up with something amazing. I know a lot more now and the overall quality of my work has improved dramatically, but I find it harder to recreate the raw inspiration of the music I created at the beginning when my knowledge was limited. Thanks for the amazing work you do with your channel.
Thanks for posting this. I actually went to U of MD school and got a music degree. There definitely felt like there was a fair amount of gate keeping in certain aspects of things. When I was there they were leaning heavily into the Avant Garde side of music and it was sort of looked down upon if you didn't take part in that ( or at least it felt that way) There was a big focus on what they called "new music" and it was kinda just weird and sometimes off the wall stuff ( a friend performed a piece where he dissassembled his trumpet as it went on which was pretty amusing) But ultimately they definitely focused more on the experimental side of things. I definitely appreciate this video. You made some excellent points. We certainly had some super well trained people who couldn't write music to save their life. And some others who were not as good at things like theory, who were able to just write some amazing things. But if you didn't know your theory? Pssshhh what a peasant. Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. This definitely needed to be said. Keep the awesome videos coming
@@StrengthandSanity I've been discovered! Yeah it was UMBC. At the time I was there I didn't have many interactions with him because of my track in music. In general though you could definitely feel the influence around the dept. ( I've edited this comment cause my previous one made no sense)
@@DJKennethA Billions of people on the planet and here we are: I also have a music degree from UMBC. Small world. Haha! I didn't study with Stuart because of this same attitude. It was clear that Stuart and I were not of the same mindset - I was forced to do an avant garde performance at one point as he rejected the piece I asked to play (which fit his criteria perfectly, but who needs facts getting in the way). My buddy and I did an admittedly terrible performance sort of mocking the entire thing and he wasn't happy. I remember him saying "you have offended the music gods." Whatever... that's just gatekeeping and it further soured me to "new" music (which that John Cage stuff was old AF by the late 90's when I was there) . I wanted to study composition, but opted to get my education from the jazz legends I studied under (Tom and Rick). Regardless, I think everything Ann says here is spot on. I didn't end up becoming a professional musician, but I still use my music skills daily and don't regret the path I chose.
@Strength and Sanity for me, it looks like they are afraid of talented people, who have the potential to compose actually good music. Probably they were also afraid of Anne. The "avant garde" ... well this "music" is not really music.
@@StrengthandSanity Waaaaait a minute I might actually remember that performance. Was this during one of the forums and you guys went up with electrical tape and one of you was shirtless? (A lot of us thought it was hilarious and really enjoyed you guys poking fun at them)
This is a testimony to persistence and not giving up. I learned more about music after I left university than I ever did during the years I studied it there. As you said, everyone learns differently and a classroom isn’t always conducive for all. Plus, I found the level of teaching was much better In faculty of arts compared to fine arts.
All the great classical composers were graduates? The influence, discovering the self and the eager to learn and self improve comes from the poor class people. everyone struggled succeeded and left a legacy in a way or other. You are the greatest example and the BRAVE Anne! behind your words I felt the pain and the struggle and probably the hidden tears that led you to success. You are blessed, keep spreading wisdom and knowledge to all of us.
Genuinely thank you for your shared thoughts! I do hope that these video will help someone who need them in the right moment to decide and not give up music creation just because they don't have formal degree or have been rejected. Also thank you for sharing your personal story. I'm pretty sure you already making difference. Real one.
(You're probably going to get quite a number of comment notifications from me; I've just discovered your channel and I'm so thrilled to have found a composer who is in my age group that I can really relate with -- so I'm basically going through and watching so many of your videos while I work). Truly appreciated this video and discussions. I have been composing orchestral music for about 15 years, but it's almost entirely been done "by ear" because I've never had the money for music education, despite trying multiple times over the years. I also have ADHD so I often have a difficult time retaining information, so this makes school settings more difficult for me, so there's been a legitimate question mark over whether or not an education would've even been good for me or if it would basically just shatter my poor fragile brain and body. I don't really know how to read or write music (though I've been very slowly trying to learn over the last two years). I did start getting REALLY interested in Music Theory during the pandemic and it quickly became a favorite topic. And similarly to you, it was interesting finding that I had already been using a lot of Music Theory "techniques" without even realizing it, I just hadn't known what to call them. Instead I was just composing and drawing from years of listening to composers like Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams, and implementing stuff I had heard them do. But to your point(s) on the problem of elitism, I have had a lot of trouble getting music gigs over the years because of my lack of education credentials. And this isn't just an issue in Music, but it's really part of a systemic issue especially in America where you have so many jobs that don't even want to see your application unless it has college credentials attached to it, even if the job in question doesn't even require skills learned from college. But yeah, unfortunately I've lost a number of gigs over the years because the client did some deeper digging on my background/portfolio and didn't find any kind of music education credentials. I have no idea how widespread this issue is in the music community, I'm hoping it's not THAT big of a an issue, generally, for composers like me. But in my little slice of the universe it's definitely been an issue. But I just carry on and do my thing and keep composing my own music, because ultimately I feel my "portfolio" should just speak for itself to any interested parties. But even aside from that, I just feel so much passion for music that not even the lack of an actual music career can keep me from just composing in my own time as a hobby. Thank you so much for your videos, and your very down-to-earth approach to the whole thing, instead of taking a more "ivory tower" approach. It truly means a lot, and I know not just to me.
What a great video. I really appreciate your words here. It's basically the same reason, I didn't study music at a school. My education was basically to low, to even set a foot on the campus of music universities. So I just did my own research, read books, took a few classes from udemy, and luckily found your TH-cam Channel, which actually gave me all informations to build my career up to now. I'm very happy to have the chance accessing videos by professional content creators and industry professionals like you here on TH-cam. Thank you for this video and your inspiring words Anne-Kathrin ☺
As someone who got a degree in a different field and didn’t really delve into music composition until later in life I find channels like yours invaluable. With a family and a career going back to college right now isn’t an option and I can read the same textbooks that you read in college but getting a practical perspective isn’t easy to come by. Even teachers in colleges might have great academic knowledge but may have never worked as a professional composer so channels like this are a great educational resource even for those getting a degree in music.
I do indeed find that except for a handful of colleges, most of the teachers have either very little experience actually working in the field or their experience is very outdated. Some colleges bypass this problem by inviting a lot of guest lecturers but it doesn't really make up for the lack of practical knowledge in the day to day teaching. While school taught me a lot of useful things, I was quite shocked how little hands on knowledge I had when I started my first job.
I love music. I want to learn more about it, write it, make it. I want to support my son, who wants to do the same. Those are reasons enough for me. I doubt either of us will go to school to do any of that, particularly me at this point in my life and yet...I don't think that will end up limiting us...particularly him. Some of the things he writes...it just amazes me, but we are both teaching ourselves and each other. We find communities and other resources to educate ourselves outside of academia and we are patient. You, Anne, are one such resource for me. Both what you say in your videos and how you say it are indeed a spark of inspiration and I'm sure many of your subscribers feel the same...not just me.
"I am convinced half of their chords are just clusters" ..cracked me up! Very thoughtful and genuine perspectives throughout the whole video.. thank you so much for sharing your experience!!
What you are describing is basically what goes on everywhere in all areas of life. People try and protect their jobs and salaries by making out that they are unique. The best example is in the professions, like law and medicine. It’s simply everyone just protecting their jobs and income
I love this argument. Snobbery and exclusion doesn’t further Art. Also, the only way for art to progress is for artists to blend the sum total of their experience to the music or art. If you’ve heard Mozart, Duke Ellington, The Beatles and Danny Elfman, bring all of that influence through your music. Whether you formally analyze and study or just depend on your ears and taste, it’s all good. It’s all the same. Nobody needs the approval of academia to make art. Educate yourself to the degree it helps you to express something that you are thinking and hearing but can’t get to. Thank you Anne!!
You are so right, I am being told I can not study because Im not worthy or I am not privileged enough financially. I already have a degree and have learnt more on youtube or private classes. thank you for sharing your knowledge
I had fun watching this - so many thanks! :-) Only one hint from a physicist - even in math there is no "right" or "wrong", since like music theory math is but a human made abstraction, not a natural science. And the reason why we are using one mathematical formulation or other is simply this: It just works well with some physics or other science to bring their models on a sheet of paper and it allows you to communicate on it and explain it. So math is very much like music, as a matter of fact. And as you know - even a tritonus may sound "right", if it fits the situation. ;-)
I was great at school and could play guitar well, but I was self taught. Music classes were the hardest classes in college and had a pretty brutal environment. I still play music, study theory, and write songs, but it was clear that the classroom was not right for me and many others. Glad you found a home at UCLA and a career in music. You are such a fighter. Really enjoying your videos.
I just discovered you through the AWFC newsletter (hello fellow female film composer!). I love your thoughts and couldn't agree with you more. I have also struggled so much in my career with the classical world as well. Your video felt so validating. ❤️ Thank you!
If we have to call "controversy" what should actually be the norm, then so be it 😉 I 100% agree with you, Anne-Kathrine, and have a few thoughts of my own, particularly with regards to gatekeeping: one can always (often?) hear that knowledge should be accessible to all, yet the majority of "providers" actually do everything they can to prevent access to knowledge. I certainly appreciate there are costs associated with learning, like providing infrastructures, materials, staff, etc., but I feel like that the norm is that knowledge is reserved to only a few selected ones, who, as you mentioned, do not accept a vision or perspective different to theirs ("elitism"). Also, they clearly see the Internet as an enemy, because it facilitates self-learning. Also, having to go into massive debt, thus affecting one's well-being, too, that too I cannot fathom why it is an acceptable practice. I truly hope we can rid of those old dinosaurs sooner than later, it will eventually happen, and we can only hope we have made more progress by then, so that we can keep moving forward in a direction that is fair for everybody
knowledge has never been more easily and cheaply available before in history. Yes, universities are ridiculously overpriced (esp in art in relation to average the income prospects). But - and that's not just in reply to you - stop the complaining! So many other options available nowadays: buy books; go on TH-cam or similar and watch thousands and thousands of tutorials FOR FREE!; go on one of the many online course platforms and buy courses for fractions of the cost of universities (lots of great stuff out there). Things are really quite awesome today (I started learning before the internet; I've lived the changes it brought). oh, and: some knowledge has to be earned. It doesn't just come to one for free just because one fancies it. And: you can only make proper use of it if you actually earn it. also, some of your statements are blatantly false.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts an knowledge with the world - This is highly appreciated, at least by me! As music goes, I am but a self-taught amateur, but I still strive to learn as much as I can, even as I am approaching my sixties... 'Right' music is what feels right to you, what you feel tells a story or paints a landscape or evokes a particular feeling. The elitism actually made me reconsider and back off when I contemplated joining the music industry in one way or another back in my early days. Instead I got a degree in electronics and today I work as a patent attorney, but I have never given up music - I play, and listen, and learn as much as I can whenever I have the time to do so.
I'm slowly learning about composition, orchestration (even playing the piano) on my free time. I have a good career, but it is not my passion. I don't have the energy to do formal studies on the side, and I certainly don't feel comfortable giving up my very well paid job, and not be able to support my family on the hope that I become successful at creating music one day. I hope I can create good music one day, and I appreciate all the help that people like Anne-Kathrin provides to people like me.
For folks in the United States who feel compelled towards a formal education - consider junior/community colleges! Low or no cost, dedicated faculty, and usually small enough class sizes to allow for individualized attention.
Your channel us honestly incredibly underrated. You deserve way more subscribers. I follow some other composing channels and they don't talk about stuff this and it's really important.
I'm a professional artist with no formal art education. But I never stop learning. People have been buying my art for almost 20 years now, and noone has complained that I'm not 'qualified'. They enjoy what they see and are inspired to open their wallets. There's a mutual satisfaction. And yes, I can expound on the interpretation of a piece laced with all the isms verbiage much like an art critic, flashing my pseudo intellectual prowess... but it's not necessary when the work can speak for itself.
Watching your videos and implementing your advice, I've learned in one month more than since I started learning music 2 years ago. None courses and\or TH-cam videos are even close to what you share! Keep it up🔥
Gatekeeping is probably the thing I abhor the most about my music profession. Thank you so much for this video. I had a similar journey as you, luckily eventually getting a partial scholarship. But I learned as much, if not more, outside of academia as inside. I just found you and I am fan.
I recently had an Master class at my Uni(where I study music) with Tom Holkengborg (aka Junkie XL) and he said “with all the respect I believe education should be free and that it was an unhealthy environment charging so much for education ”, you should of seen the professors’ faces. Their souls left their bodies. And pretty much everything you said about education, same views, no matter where you get it youtube, books, friends in the field, tutors, anythings is a good source and it should be free. sharing knowledge to the world will make it better, so Thank you for sharing not just your knowledge, but your experiences and help the community grow!
Excellent video - thanks for sharing your views! In my case the classical elitism actually discouraged me from studying music after the Abitur. I always had the impression that in Germany it was particularly bad, but over time I saw that's it's pretty universal. With some twists and turns I ended up becoming a musician anyway, just instead of classical Western music I'm now doing classical Japanese music now (and some quite idiosyncratic stuff). So, I completely agree with what you're saying: The gatekeepers are losing their power; the floodgates have opened. There are more avenues to music than formal education, now more than ever! (I'm tempted to say: "Power to the people", but that's so melodramatic .... 😁)
Thanks a lot for this video! I feel this so much. Though I have been writing and playing music for most of my life, I often felt excluded by "real" musicians. Studying music always felt to me like it was something for "the other kids", not the trash kid from a trash family that I thought myself of. I therefore assumed, despite having learned a bit of music theory in school, playing in a youth orchestra for a while and having played in two bands with class mates AND writing my own songs, that I would never be accepted in music school (in addition, my parents urged me to pursue a "real" career). So I didn't follow my passion in this way. Instead, I continued writing, playing and producing music on the side, as a hobby. It is only now that I have found people who appreciate what I am doing and support me enough that I have gained the confidence to put a little bit more thought and effort into it, but it took me so long to get here. Sorry for the wall of text. Again, thank you for making this video. Just one more thing: did you watch Tantacrul's video on elitism in music? It is also a great video on this topic.
So sorry to hear that! Stories like this break my heart and really make me wish the status quo was different. I watched Tantacrul's video just now after you pointed it out. Really interesting thoughts that I very much agree with - plus his production value is way higher than mine. 🙂 Funny that this is being discussed so much right now. Something must be in the air...
Hello Anne-Kathrin, I can share your opinion 100 percent. I also listen to a wide variety of music genres and create my own songs, which sometimes sound rocky, sometimes pop, sometimes orchestral and often just mixed. I love classical instruments as well as synthesizers or distorted guitars. I play acoustic and electric guitar as an autodidact. I like analogue and I like digital, even a mixture of both. If there's one thing I hate, it's the arrogance of some professional musicians, musicologists and other know-it-alls. Music is there to be enjoyed, whether as a musician or as a listener. Even supposedly unprofessionally arranged music can be loved. It's all a matter of taste and not of the artificially imposed tape measure. I'm really happy to have subscribed to your channel. Warm greetings from Germany!
Katrin,You are a true inspiration as usual! I have a high education diploma in classical music in Romania but...lots of things I'm self-taught even in My field. But the education system is poorly and if want to learn something higher need to go in Western countries academies to get a higher level. In the internet era TH-cam became the next University with such great teachers who make Me learn lots of things in minutes for We have to go to school years to listen a bad teacher and ending to not learn too much.. Academy education has to reconcider the attitude and learn to adapt because lots of higher education programs are scams giving students poor training with no practice and experience and with lots of debt. Good work Katrin...Alles Gut! :)
Sorry you had such a bad experience in academia. I totally understand you and here's my little rant about it. I am an ex-academic and have worked in a top 10 university globally. I left academia for good because my experience with the community in telecoms was horrible. I have seen professors in telecommunications who didn't know what a network switch looks like. Postdocs in radio communications who thought the S1 interface in LTE is a physical cable type. Heads of telecoms departments with PhD in TCP/IP who didn't know if there is a QoS field in the IP header. Celebrity professors going around giving speeches on virtualisation while texting me late at night to show them what a virtual machine looks like. Yeah, technical examples that many won't get but rather elementary things for people in this field, let alone for professors in a top 10 university who go around advising businesses and governments. And because they are trapped in this bubble, isolated from the real world, they like to think themselves as experts and science elite. I had colleagues who refused to work with professors from a 'lesser' university despite the fact that they were actually far more knowledgeable than them. And I am not even going into more serious matters such as plagiarism and misrepresentation of involvement. The academic community has very few people who are actually competent researchers and educators. Bottom line, if you can't do, teach. If you can do, go out there and do it, the money will be much better also.
Thank you very much for sharing so openly your experience. I like your human perspective, i.e. talking real things and knowing the diversity of people. btw a big respect for your eloquence. You and Jürgen (Klopp, FC Liverpool) are my motivators in learning languages. Cheers from Freiburg.
As an academic (not in the field of music) I am glad you clarified that theory is not 'a thing' per se but merely a way to explain and name the phenomenon in question, in this case music. There is far too much confusion, not just in music but in general, that theory precedes the phenomenon it is supposed to explain and thus lots of people think you cannot make music if you don't know theory, which is just nonsense. Having said that, not having studied music in a traditional sense has always been my biggest regret, not so much because I cannot learn those ideas anywhere else (your channel is proof that I can) but because it would have been, maybe, a great opportunity for networking and working with other musicians, orchestras etc. and maybe the best way to get a foot in what is already a narrow door. Alas, at the age of 33, I think that ship has sailed for me. Most MAs in music require a Bachelor's degree, and I don't think I can afford to spend another three years of my life in education at this point. But watching your video has made me question whether I would even enjoy doing a degree in composition. I have always hated academic elitism, and I saw my fair share of that while at university. Theory that is completely detached from practice also puts me off, though I seem to understand many universities now are integrating theory and practice and give the students opportunities to actually make music rather than just burying their noses in dusty old books all the time, or at least that is what many curricula online would suggest. Certainly, it might have been possibly the only way for me to ever get to work with an orchestra, something which mostly likely will remain just a dream at this point. Oh well, I suppose I am grateful for living in an age in which we have this amazing technology plus so much free information online. Thanks for these excellent videos. Feel free to check out my small channel, if you like: th-cam.com/video/XG_FjB4XHq4/w-d-xo.html
I went to University of North Texas for the music composition program but was severely let down. It seemed like all they cared about was the most abstract and avant-garde music that was notated with pictures of clouds and bunny rabbits. I realized I would never learn how to score a film in the program. The director had more of an ego about looking intellectual and sophisticated and cutting edge than caring about teaching practical skills to make a living. Berklee had a totally different vibe. They actually talked about music business and it was so much more relevant to the real world.
I agree and resonate. In a way i'm happy that I studied a lot by myself and from private tutoring rather than going to a music school. It made me understand things independently, albeit slower, but on a much deeper and personal level. Thank you for your channel, information and liberating views.
Thank you Anne-Kathrin for sharing your story with us. It's showing again that we desperately need a new system of education (worldwide). It reminds me of some comments made by Sir Ken Robinson in Paradigm of Education. Putting people in a box and limiting/restraining education all started during the Age of Enlightenment and we still suffer from those decisions up today! When you think about it, what a paradox it is to choose a path of education, a job, or a skilled trade at 17-18 years old and been told that you'll do it for the rest of your working years. It's truly a blessing to have access to education at our fingertips and the elitism is soon to be over. Keep up your great work and sharing insights with us: peasants! haha! :)
I completely agree with you on every point. What you say applies not only to music, but to the entire school and university system. I grew up making music, in very different genres. However, I never became a professional musician, but continued to work in the natural sciences. But even there, it has to be said that the establishment has completely shot itself in the foot. Science, just like the music world, has to completely reinvent itself. And I think music has even made a good deal of progress on the right path.
Just dropped in to say that me and three of my mates make this decision at Friday night beersies, but anyone can write in, we always try to take the public's opinions into consideration.
Your experience in music academia is so similar to mine, but mine was all in the US. Basically, I was too poor to afford out-of-state tuition to go to California or New York, and while I was a very talented performer, my main instrument (bass clarinet) is not often found in orchestras and I'm not a good enough pianist to get into Berkley on just that. This left me stuck in Florida where (at the time I was first in school) there were no composition programs, only performance and education. So I ended up leaving music all together for about 10 years. Ended up going into health sciences. Now I'm doing music again, but on my own terms. I'm much happier this time around, not giving a crap about what anyone else thinks.
Like you, I took issue with the elitism in music school. I noticed a fascinating trend, however, among the students. For all of the elitism, there seemed to be an equal amount of sophomoric attitude among a number of the students. So there was a dichotomy of professors that kept the gates and a group of students that foolishly thought that the profs didn't know what was best. I came to realize that these students were merely tomorrow's elitist professors! Fortunately, there were many great teachers at my school that gave their knowledge liberally while also pushing themselves to evolve. I also had a circle of friends that were willing to listen and contribute rather than critique everything out of very little experience. Academia is often very toxic and it can be challenging to sanely navigate. Great video!
I add my voice to those of all the others here who appreciate and applaud your thinking. There is too much gatekeeping in so many artistic and scholastic areas-too much elitism, too much attempt to be the sole arbiter of what is good and what is not good, who is worthy of access to the sacred knowledge and who is not. The already great respect and esteem I had for you, your art, and your expression just doubled with this video. Thank you so much for posting this!
6:20 about this topic I’d like to add that a genius of composer such as Jerry Goldsmith learned almost everything privately (excluding few classrooms), with great teachers of course, but outside any form of college and conservatory…
I have independent concerns about the ready availability of putative information and the difficulty in developing the skills to evaluate and critique that putative information. It makes it too easy to think that one knows something that one does not, or to be overwhelmed by conflicting ideas without being able to get some foothold to begin making progress. But, it is better than no information being available. It's just that hearing/reading something, knowing that it is true, and knowing how to do things, are all very different. But that's much less specific than what you were addressing; and I really enjoyed hearing your views and experience. Thank you!
I do understand what you mean - now that absolutely everyone can put information out there, people need to develop skills to critically evaluate the source. Personally, I like to consume multiple resources about a topic I'm researching and then I see where the overlaps are. I will also look up the person who is presenting the information - if there is no work history to be found in the field, then I'll be more careful. But at the end of the day it's all about trying things out. I can watch 20 different videos about how to brew coffee with the Aeropress but I'll have to try out all those recipes and methods presented to actually find out what works for me personally.
Music Education can really be a detriment to creativity. I have a Bachelor's in music and a Master's in education and all of that knowledge makes you second (and triple and quadruple) guess everything you write. You are essentially writing for your professors and former educators because you feel compelled to use the knowledge you gain from them. I'm constantly reminding myself that music doesn't have to look correct, it has to sound good. If it sounds good, it's correct. No explanations needed. Leave the theory to the people that want to analyze your music.
I'm starting the Film Scoring program at UCLA Extension in a couple of weeks. If anyone reading this wants what looks like an amazing program with great faculty, this seems to be the spot. Full program is about $15,000 and you can pay for the courses as you go. Great for busy adults with jobs who want to transition into the craft. Love this channel.
Loved this video! I have been saying this in the UK for years. A very insightful look into a world that is changing slowly for the better. Great work and well said!
I knew I wasn´t an interpreter, nor a composer, but I wanted to work something related to music and or arts. So, I changed my business major to music because I wanted to be an arts manager. I was very clear with my goals, and I told everyone including my teachers. While I wasn't a brilliant student, I did Ok with theory, history, etc. I was terrible though at ear training, sight reading and playing. I played guitar before, I tried percussion, I tried piano...I didn't do well in those. But the worse part was that one of the teachers told me early on in his office that he thought I was no better than a leech, and that I wanted to live off of the talent of others. He added that he would do whatever he could to get me kicked out of there. Although I couldn't pursue what I wanted to do, now I'm interested in music production for my own sake. It took me well over 10 years to pick up a guitar again, and a few years to even think about writing anything. Most of all, I wish to enjoy whatever I can learn and do in music. I wish the best to anyone who wants to pursue this professionally. It's a tough road.
I have just recently discovered your channel and I am in awe at the level of insight you posses regarding music. This video in particular is a master class in what music making should be about-life affirming creative expression. I have been a victim of gate keeping in academia and its soul destroying arbitrary judgements about talent. Thank you for making your experience and knowledge available for all of us.
the gate keepers (often wrong; still needed at times) the critics (they really shouldn't) the client (they're always right - even when they're wrong) the customers (they're always right)
I believe that each individual person decides what is good. Some music might be more technically advanced than others, but it doesn't make it any better than a punk rock song that consists of the same three chords repeated over and over. That's the great thing about music! There is no good or bad.
To me, music is a natural wonder. Academics study, nature, trees, plants, oceans, etc.. But these things exist entirely without the academics and book writers. As does music. It's an innate part of the human experience. IMO 😊 And I love your channel, it is excellent. What you teach, and how you present it, enriches the experience of and deepens the skills and appreciation of others. Very well done.
Extremely well formulated, Anne-Kathrin! I sincerely hope that young people do take your advice to not get into serious depth to get a chique degree, but will follow their instincts instead, and just do what they’re best at (and enjoy most). I understand your personal frustration (from my own experience, although in the field of engineeing -music is “just” a serious hobby for me) and it took me a long time to get over it. I now just laugh at the mediocracy of the gatekeepers: its all about self-interest to remain in power, afraid that more talented people burst their bubble of self-protection. Anyone with talent can be successful. We can’t say the same of anyone with a degree…. Je videos zijn super-interessant en top kwaliteit. Ga zo door!!!
I highly recommend Caustic 3, a $10 app that's like a scaled-down Ableton or FL Studio. It's changed my life. Even though I don't compose professionally yet, I love that the ability to compose has been unlocked and continues to grow.
Ok, I know I'm late to the party, but I want to share my experience/point of view. I have a background in classical guitar, and I've never given a rat's ass about my studies. All I wanted to do at the beginning of my education was to play the electric guitar. Still, because of my parents, I had to study classical guitar since Italian Conservatories hadn't jumped yet on the Jazz and Pop performance degrees bandwagon when I started my education (approximately 2004/05). It was around my last 4 years that "classical" music (the proper term would be western music tradition), as my interest in composition blossomed out of the Music Theory classes. Once I got my degree (2016), I started looking around for a school that taught Composition for Films and Video Games. I had to rule out Canada and US for budgetary reasons (my parents told me right away we couldn't afford it). The UK schools I'd evaluated seemed approachable, though some were steep in price. The schools located in Scotland were more affordable, but I was unsure about the curriculum. In Italy, the situation was dire. Before 2010, Conservatories in Italy only had "vecchio ordinamento" courses. That meant your studies could span from 5 to 15 years. From 5 to 10 for instrument courses or the first 5 years of the piano course (or equivalent education) followed by other 10 years for composition, orchestral conducting, composition for marching band, composition for choir or choir conducting. The reform that standardized the courses to the Bachelor + Master's Degree formula kept in place the admission requirements of the old system without maintaining the same efficiency. With the old system, you would attend class from October to June/July of the following year, but the changes brought by the reform reduced classes to 30 hours per semester. That meant 3 months top of lessons per subject. So, I was a bit sceptical about going back and studying anything in any Italian Conservatory or music school. Since 2014 I have been studying composition privately and, in 2019, I felt prepared enough to enrol for a Master's Degree in Applied Composition, where I later graduated in 2021. Still, I genuinely wish I had endured the hard labour of the old system because it indeed was a make-it-or-break-it education system. When I see what composers with a traditional education can write, my jaw systematically hits the floor as I wish I had studied how to write with that level of proficiency or had learned how to orchestrate so masterfully. Whether we like it or not, knowing what happened in music centuries before leaves more room for experimentation, as you know what has been already done in the past, what's proven to work and what's not
the Beatles famously talked about music and composition using very general terms and not music theory terms, because they didn't study theory but instinctively knew stuff about music. music is a very instinctive art form, but since it's a language, like all languages, it helps a lot to learn the vocabulary and grammar, and will make you more eloquent. but like all languages, you don't need to know the theory behind it to be able to speak it well.
You rock. I come from a lower class family that possessed music as a very strong family tradition...( Like really your mom doesn't play every instrument) to be shocked that modern westerners do not utilize music beyond a hobby for the rich. It was quite shocking to say the least and the questions "how did you afford to learn all that" was very similar to "how do you afford to have blonde hair (in my ethnicity blonde hair is natural yet uncommon due to darker skin and eyes) which just happened. It's very very sad that music was culturally implemented as a categorical activity utilized to enhance the social status of wealthy people vicariously through their children. Who eventually grow to despise such. In 2003, I was the only female in a room of 100 men at the international music convention and in a world that is already all but virtually inaccessible by half the population, tacking on class just placed it further from the reaches of those who need it most. Thank you thank you thank you for presenting this topic.
I've been in the musical academia world my whole adult life but i've personally encountered more elitism from jazz bros than anywhere else. Glad you pointed that out
I have no degrees past high school. 25 years. Music is beautiful thank you for your videos. Always thought how orchestras are written. And it appears that it really is complicated. Internet slowly erases the gatekeepers that's damn right.
Thanks for posting this. You are so correct on the student loan issue. It is a travesty and should be done away with. There are so many ways to get education now. Your channel is among those I would recommend to anyone looking to further their training.
I continue to be shocked how some schools can charge an annual middle class income per year and get away with it, knowing fully well the average income after graduation is usually around the poverty line. It should be illegal, especially without an explicit disclaimer for every applicant.
I love this. So true. I’m a generation older but I’m totally inspired by young people who really want something so much that they will make the most interesting and exciting art and if they need to learn something they can find it on TH-cam
I spent this video pointing at the screen in fervent agreement but keeping quiet bc I didn't want to miss the next sentence. You preach it, Ms. Dern! Yes! I can personally attest to many points made here.
Without doubt - probably the single, BEST explanation of why people make music. I too, have always decried the issue of Academia - who stifle creativity, innovation and advancement of music. You have made so many good arguments that in my humble estimation could not ever be refuted, denied or as in so many cases - admitted to by those who would deny it. Brilliant commentary Anne-Kathrin - I TOTALLY agree with it. I was a vocalist all my life. I'm degreed, taught voice for a time and always felt that even we are put into a box of specific control by the elite who think that you should do it their way. Granted, it IS a PHYSICAL issue that must be preserved, cared for, seriously controlled for your own vocal life. But don't tell me that one type of vocal music is the ONLY way that's worth listening to. And it relates to your comments about music in general. Even my college theory teacher - said during first year - that we MUST do it according to the book. Second year (and this is why I LOVED my college theory teacher) - but second year he said essentially, just compose music, from the heart, what you love, whatever style MOVES you to create. I think that's what you're saying - at least I think I get the gist of it. And frankly I don't think in my 75 years I've ever heard it stated any better than you just did in this video. You, young lady, have your finger on the pulse of what music is, can be, should be - unrestrained, not hindered by convention, not criticized by self-appointed demeaning so-called experts EVER ANY TIME AT ALL!! BY ANYBODY!! Good for you. An artist friend of mine always said - and he was a potter, a writer and a musician doing what he wanted - but he always said art is so SUBJECTIVE but "if it's art with you, it's art with me"!! And that's how I have done anything I do creatively - my way whether it's good, bad or anywhere in between. I do what pleases me and try to make good music. And there is always someone who appreciates it out there. And that's all we can expect - even if it's only ONE!! THANKS for this great commentary. Brilliant indeed.
Liebe Anne-Kathrin, vielen vielen Dank für deine Videos, deine Meinung und deine Expertise. Ich kann so gut nachfühlen, was Du in diesem Video sagst. Ich habe selbst mit 20 zur Musik gefunden und bin auf dem Weg Medien Komposition zu studieren, entweder an einer Uni oder eben auf eigenem Wege, wenn es nicht anders gehen sollte. Danke für all dein großzügiges Wissen - du bist auf diese Art eine Bereicherung und tolle Begleitung. Roman aus Marburg in Hessen :)
In my adolescence, my classical guitar teacher/mentor had a profound impact on my view of art that I carry with me to this day. He was a flawed individual, and not every lesson was a good one. But he really impressed upon me the idea that good art is good art, whether it's 20th century avante garde classical music, or indie Memphis rock. One day he would have me listen to Bach, then classical Indian music, then the Replacements. And he had deeply held opinions about all of it, but never was something discounted because it fell into a certain style that wasn't seen as respectable by academia. So I always roll my eyes and question their judgment whenever someone elevates their opinion to be the arbiter of what is considered "art."
Thanks for that...as someone who never got a college degree, I resonate with your remarks. A lack of formal education did not stop me from becoming a professional writer, a broadcasting professional, an ad agency executive, a recording engineer, a music composer, and other roles I have assumed over the past 6.5 decades. It all was about self-education, passion, determination, practice, and repetition.
One of Debussy's teachers told him his harmonic ideas only work '...if you're a genius.' ...WELL ;) Frank Zappa is a great example of genius without the formal conservatory education, as well.
I like your comment that people should be allowed access to learn what they want to the depth that they want. I am an engineer by training, and music came from playing when I was young, and listening and enjoying it later. I have read a few books, but that was enough so that I would have a language to express what I was thinking and feeling. As an adult, I wrote on the audience facing blog of my local symphony, they also had musicians and academic trained musicologists writing for them to help educate the audience, I was the non-professional writing so the audience could feel free to feel and think as they did while they listened and enjoyed the music. As a side benefit, I could carry a conversation with my now wife, who is a conservatory trained pianist. :-)
Very excellent video Anne, I've encountered a variety of prejudices that I find tiresome with the elite. For instance, they imagined that since I'm Cuban, I knew how to create Caribbean music XD, and during an interview, a member of the audience questioned whether I was scared by Hollywood composers from the past. Are you serious? I think the so-called elitists, whom I refer to as the boys' club, are disgruntled because thanks to technology, education, and, let's be honest, TH-cam, we no longer need to attend schools and rely on them. That is essentially the point made. I am extremely happy of having begun my education as a self-learner since I was willing to learn as much as possible from wherever resource I find to make me happier.
The worst thing an academic can do to a student, is to cut off his/her wings, even when the learning curve is quite flat, while on the other hand the student is willing to devote and try hard and try harder. And if you think more about it and are able to begin a conversation about these issues, you'll end up speaking about regulations, politics and then economic systems. :)
Absolutely agree with 100% you said. I’m in my fifties and I recently learned cinematography, film editing and now I will start learning music scoring and composition. Im watching all your videos. Thanks for sharing and music lessons. You are very much appreciated by many.
You're totally right! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences.. Life is life and you have to live it with your own means as well as with your own madness and creativity.. See Egberto Gismonti who started is mastering of music first by going from Brazil to France and studying with the great Nadia Boulanger.. then going back to Brazil and immerse himself in the life and culture of Brazilian indian forest people to understand their relation to music, sounds, nature and universe.. he then came out with a profound and highly personnal music style which will stand up the changes of times..
Anne, you probably know the story: Tchaikovsky was not admitted to the Moscow Conservatory that now bears his name ;-) Thank you for your insights and teachings! Warm greetings from one of your preferred countries, The Netherlands.
Jumping on the jazz talk - we are playing those chords without the roots to give the bass players chance to transform the changes - all the fun in a jazz combo starts from the "rootless voicings". Great channel BTW!
"Why are you playing chords without the root note? Are you looking for trouble??" LMFAO 🤣 I never understood why my teacher put so many red marks on my assignments when we were analyzing cadences. Turns out, he and I just looked at things differently.
When it comes to education, my thoughts are very simple: There needs to be more "Free and open educational resources." In ICT, there's a term called FOSS, comes from Free and Open Source Software. We are very willing to pour our hearts and souls with years of our time in FOSS development so others can use those tools and software in their own projects, work and whatever, without any expectations of reimbursement of any kind. This mentality should be even more prevalent in developing educational resources.
Thank you for being so generous with your time to share. I agreed. It is sad. Unfortunately, things will remain “paid to play,” and without those documents, there is no job available. It would be high-level professionals like you who would have to hire or provide opportunities for people without those documents to shine. Some people always feel, “I had to do it, so do you,” and those people know that the value of that education was limited, and it was primarily self-taught. The subject of formal education is significant and will require decent, kind-hearted people to change things on different levels and in other professions
I honestly, genuinely wouldn't have guessed there would be people criticising you for giving away information for the sole reason they had to pay for it. Who does that? Who has so little self reflection that this impulse makes it from your subconscious, passes your conscious mind and results in the decision to type it in AND THEN send the comment? Thank you for your channel!
The thing is that what is not traditional depends on a tradition of thought about music to be developed. Example : Stockhausen’s music, and Schoenberg. They dialogue with traditional categories, opposing or recontextualizing them. The key of learning traditional syles is that they are easier to conceive in some extent (for ex. a menuet) and there you have oportunity to think about universal categories of musical perception already . Now: of course university today is most concerned with gender than with beauty/expression… So you are right if studying alone, or being cautious about sources.
Back in the day I wanted to go to school for music. I was really good on trumpet, but wanted to learn composition. Anyway, mostly due to the compettiveness of the music school near me (Cincinnati) I ended up just going into liberal arts (history), and just kept music as a hobby. I got a synthesizer with a sequencer, a 4 track, a computer, and later various DAWs. I got some theory books from my aunt (who went to school to be a music teacher), and gradually bought books on theory and orchestration, taught myself by going through them and experimenting on the synth. I've been composing for fun for decades now, but really haven't done anything with it. I tend to make up stuff on the spot with the intent of polishing it later, but tend to never get back to it. Oh well. In the last few years, TH-cam has really become a resource I would've killed for back in the 90's. There are so many more resources for learning theory and getting a realistic description of the music business now from channels like yours and Rick Beato, etc.. . It feels like there's more opportunity to learn from a community without all the siloed resources and gatekeepers that were always there. I really appreciate what you're doing on your channel. Please keep it up.
As some one who has a music degree and has also written jingles and pop songs, I can answer the question, why do the academics get angry at you for doing deep-dive videos? Because you’re so much better at teaching it than they are. You’re showing them up. People like you, Ryan Leach, Rick Beato, Paul Thompson - I’ve learned far more, far better from you than I did in college or even OTJ in Nashville studios. The cream rises to the top, and there’s no longer anyone to hold you down so they can keep their vaunted position which they earned by playing the academic game rather than by being great teachers.
@aaron singer, if you're better than Rick at teaching ear training and music theory, start a channel. I'll sub.
YES
As someone also with a music degree and who is also writing pop songs, I completely agree!
Rick beato is an actual legend. If it wasn't for him I wouldn't understand musical keys or modes or even chord structure. The man is a wonderful resource. And so is this person I just found her channel today while I'm at work lol so I got my headphones and and just learning as I go xD
They also want success to be dictated by their (supposedly high) standards and it is not. It is talent/originality/creativity (and timing) driven, no formal education required.
"Why are you playing chords without the root note?!? Are you looking for trouble?" Love it!! Your perspective is mine.
Those jazz players are ALWAYS looking for trouble... ;-P
This was classic!!!
@@AnneKathrinDernComposer HAHAH!!! you got it!!! TROUBLE is where the fun is . . . !!!
It's because they showed up to the live gig 15 mins before the show starts, after the house has opened and an hour after the sound check was supposed to be complete. They don't have time to bring the root notes in from their car/van.
That root note is usually imagined by the listener and that's what engages and rewards them. This quality is also what allows Jazz and other similar (world) music to have longer shelf life.
As a disabled composer, I cannot express enough how much I appreciate this discourse.
I live by Rick Beato's philosophy of music theory being simply a way to name the things you hear. Another wise thing I heard from a music school colleague once: "music dictates music theory but music theory doesn't dictate music."
Oh I like that quote! It basically sums up the first half of my video in a way more efficient and eloquent way.
Not to sum up anything else you said in your video, but I like to hear that message every so often of (more or less bluntly) "always be humble and check your ego at the door" - one of the most valuable lessons I learned in academia honestly. Side note: thanks for speaking up for us millennials there near the end!
It's insane how mature you are while being so young. I might have needed half of my life to get near your wisdom. Please spread it around and never stop. It's incredibly refreshing.
I love how you're not only in a power position, but you're using your experience and platform to break down the system one myth at a time.🔥
I wish your videos were around 20 years ago. Would have saved my sanity in music school.
I remember saying that I liked 50 Cent and a violinist was like, 'I didn't know the symphony orchestra was lowering their standards for good brass players'.
I cold turkeyed on music after graduating.
Thank you for this F the system video 🤘🙏
About 5 years ago I went into piano store and discussed with the owner (guy who was about 55) about electric piano and played him a Piano peace I composed from My MP3 player. He was impressed saying "This is very good" but then asked what university did I go to and I said "none I'm self tought" and His face dropped in shock and said "Right well I cant help you, piano is not for you, goodbye" and waved his hand to the door, for Me to leave.
he was terrified of your raw power :D
20 years ago there wasn’t internet on today’s means yet :-) BTW : I forwarded this video to all ... parents of my students !
why are black people obsessed with "f-ing the system"? are the stereotypes true after all?
“Who decides what’s good?”
The listener. It doesn’t matter if it is a music theory masterpiece or the biggest mess of theory to ever exist. If people like it then it is good
You're not only a composer, you're a speaker. You can blow me away in a voice without any emotion. You are so great.
Tristan like you I’m deeply impressed. But by that wonderful combination of experience and (controlled but real) feelings. Yeah, the presentation is great. AK is a Professorin now.
absolutely agree tristan. she can blow me (and she does!) all the time.
The problem with most film music academics is that it's more about your arguments for why you write something than the real thing you're expressing in music. The latter ensures that it is more about the technique than the music. You are right that expensive education is no guarantee of success. What you do in practice, including the awards, makes you.
Very well said! When I first got into classical music I went through a phase of evaluating all music based on qualities of Stravinsky - but that was such an adolescent and foolish way to look at music. There's a heart within most music that goes well beyond any theory.
I would say one big thing "theory" has helped me with is being able to understand and dissect other people's music, and quickly - which has definitely helped me massively with composing and conducting. You can learn more from studying other people's music than any textbook can teach you!
Loving this channel, thanks for sharing
Simply not true. Both methods are worthwhile. To say that textbooks and courses have no value is just as close minded as the people and institutions you are disparaging.
Well said, Oscar! I think you are saying that textboook theory helps with the more important learning from other people's music. I'm struck though, by Anne-Kathrin's point about using modal interchange intuitively. Inspiration and intuition are even more important. I wonder if music theory or listening to other peoples music helps with that?
here goes a token of my appreciation, and a middle finger to all those elitists that told you that you can't give it away for free.
For me music is a hobby for which I wouldn't pay the price of a degree, both in time and money. I'm learning so much with resources like your channel and other similar ones.
My contribution is just a small thing to encourage you to continue. I assume there are young people who are also learning with your channel and have a brilliant future in music.
Thanks Anne-Kathrin!
OMG this is a must watch for everyone not just students not just musicians. I already appreciated and respected you but this takes you to another level. Thank you so much for doing this for all of us.
I suppose it's just in my generation's nature to challenge the systems in place... The more people speak up, the sooner things can evolve into something better.
"I have a problem with that." Anyone with a shred of human decency should have a problem with that.
Cheers for this video, elitism and gate-keeping are such out-moded mentalities. Write what you want to write, like what you want to like, and just let the bitter people fade into oblivion.
💙
I was an above average technical player when I was 18. I went for an audition for a scholarship at Berkeley. The people at that table were condescending and dismissive. The head of the guitar department wanted to get me in, but was overruled. It set up this false narrative in my head for years that I wasn't good enough. I can't help but think how different things might have gone if I'd been able to get the education. Ps... I'm really enjoying your videos. Thank you for making them.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. When I went to college (back in the 70's) I started with a double major...music (voice and piano) and psychology. The very first class I went to in the music department was for all music students, and the subject was basically "Are you good enough to be here?" The professor made it clear that many of us were not talented enough to major in music (even though he hadn't a clue of what we were capable of). Turned out the name of the department should have been "Music and Egotism". The level of elitism was suffocating. And to make it worse, my male voice teacher sexually harassed me during EVERY voice lesson with constant innuendo and off-color comments. He was possibly three times my age, and even invited me to his home (not as part of a group). I dropped the music major after the third semester and continued with psychology, eventually getting degrees in both Clinical and School Psychology, and having a great career. I've written music all my life, and now that I'm retired I'm learning music production from you and many other wonderful people sharing their knowledge and experience on YT. Thank you!!
Thank you so much for this video, it‘s very inspirational.
My dreams of becoming a Tonmeister and creating Music in general shattered at the entrance exams and I turned my back on music for many years.
With your content and the way you present it, you inspire and motivate me to be creative again. Which is the most important thing for me with any teacher. And on top of that, there is brilliant information, structured in a way that makes the topics more accessible to me.
Wow! Your major poins are so true in almost any of so called academic art education. Not just music. Coming from field of architecture this sounds almost too familiar. Small group of elitists defines what's good and what's not. When at university in our first year, we were kind of separated in two groups: those who are bad and those who had "talent". The judgement was not done regarding Your skills. It was done looking at Your personal style: do You look like an architect? and speak like an architect? It kind of opened my eyes about academic art education. I have witnessed it too many times, if You serve the elitist continuum and fit in that or if You have connections, You can publish anything that has difficult words and complicated sentences as an academic paper even if there's no sense in it and no one can understand your thinking. The ones who speak clearly and can make the common understand their point are considered heretic and dangerous by the elite. Sometimes it has even qualities of a religious cult. I think there's not one sacred truth in what's art, music or architecture. There are many of truths in all of those. There are many ways of looking at things or hearing things. This is why I don't want to teach at academic level.
Hi Anne-Kathrin. I live in Italy and here everybody can freely have access to every kind of school, conservatory, university. In Italy the school is 90% public and in the public school you can find the highest level teachers. Nobody in Italy has never been told "you are too poor to study with us". I'm a "jazz composition" teacher in the italian conservatory and, obviously, we have entrance tests, but we also have pre-academic classes in order to offer education even at a basic level. And I can say without any doubt that most of our students reach a very good level when they complete their "academic journey" with us and some of them have already become wonderful professional musicians (both instrumentalists and arrangers-composers). I'm so sorry when I hear that academic educations kills creativity. It's the exact opposite! Me, as a teacher, I always try to find ways to encourage my students in being creative! Academics absolutely don't kill creativity; I'd better say bad teachers kill creativity! Thank you for your very good and interesting videos! All the best! Vito Andrea Morra from Bari (Italy).
I've only been composing for about 5 years, but I've developed a passion for it. However, at the age of 60 I'll not be going back to University, so I rely on channels like yours to fill in the gaps in my knowledge. Your channel is by far the best in my opinion - you just tell it like it is. I watch other channels, such as Rick Beato, but he can be somewhat elitist - he has his conceptions about what a "proper" song is and if it doesn't meet his criteria then it's garbage. I believe that music is more than the sum of it's parts and that if a piece of music makes you feel something, then it's done it's job. I'm not completely ignorant when it comes to music theory, I've been a gigging musician for over 40 years. When I look back at my earlier work, I often prefer it to what I'm currently doing. When I first started, I went out of my way to break as many musical rules as I could get away with and still have it sound coherent. Most of it didn't work, but every now and again I'd come up with something amazing. I know a lot more now and the overall quality of my work has improved dramatically, but I find it harder to recreate the raw inspiration of the music I created at the beginning when my knowledge was limited. Thanks for the amazing work you do with your channel.
Thanks for posting this. I actually went to U of MD school and got a music degree. There definitely felt like there was a fair amount of gate keeping in certain aspects of things. When I was there they were leaning heavily into the Avant Garde side of music and it was sort of looked down upon if you didn't take part in that ( or at least it felt that way) There was a big focus on what they called "new music" and it was kinda just weird and sometimes off the wall stuff ( a friend performed a piece where he dissassembled his trumpet as it went on which was pretty amusing) But ultimately they definitely focused more on the experimental side of things. I definitely appreciate this video. You made some excellent points. We certainly had some super well trained people who couldn't write music to save their life. And some others who were not as good at things like theory, who were able to just write some amazing things. But if you didn't know your theory? Pssshhh what a peasant. Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. This definitely needed to be said. Keep the awesome videos coming
Kenneth: was this UMBC under Stuart Saunders Smith by any chance?
@@StrengthandSanity I've been discovered! Yeah it was UMBC. At the time I was there I didn't have many interactions with him because of my track in music. In general though you could definitely feel the influence around the dept. ( I've edited this comment cause my previous one made no sense)
@@DJKennethA Billions of people on the planet and here we are: I also have a music degree from UMBC. Small world. Haha! I didn't study with Stuart because of this same attitude. It was clear that Stuart and I were not of the same mindset - I was forced to do an avant garde performance at one point as he rejected the piece I asked to play (which fit his criteria perfectly, but who needs facts getting in the way). My buddy and I did an admittedly terrible performance sort of mocking the entire thing and he wasn't happy. I remember him saying "you have offended the music gods." Whatever... that's just gatekeeping and it further soured me to "new" music (which that John Cage stuff was old AF by the late 90's when I was there) . I wanted to study composition, but opted to get my education from the jazz legends I studied under (Tom and Rick). Regardless, I think everything Ann says here is spot on. I didn't end up becoming a professional musician, but I still use my music skills daily and don't regret the path I chose.
@Strength and Sanity for me, it looks like they are afraid of talented people, who have the potential to compose actually good music. Probably they were also afraid of Anne. The "avant garde" ... well this "music" is not really music.
@@StrengthandSanity Waaaaait a minute I might actually remember that performance. Was this during one of the forums and you guys went up with electrical tape and one of you was shirtless? (A lot of us thought it was hilarious and really enjoyed you guys poking fun at them)
This is a testimony to persistence and not giving up. I learned more about music after I left university than I ever did during the years I studied it there. As you said, everyone learns differently and a classroom isn’t always conducive for all. Plus, I found the level of teaching was much better In faculty of arts compared to fine arts.
All the great classical composers were graduates? The influence, discovering the self and the eager to learn and self improve comes from the poor class people. everyone struggled succeeded and left a legacy in a way or other. You are the greatest example and the BRAVE Anne! behind your words I felt the pain and the struggle and probably the hidden tears that led you to success. You are blessed, keep spreading wisdom and knowledge to all of us.
Q: "Who Decides What's Good?"
A: Wagner
I actually wrote this before watching the video, and it was funny because she mentioned Wagner 🤣
Genuinely thank you for your shared thoughts! I do hope that these video will help someone who need them in the right moment to decide and not give up music creation just because they don't have formal degree or have been rejected. Also thank you for sharing your personal story. I'm pretty sure you already making difference. Real one.
Thank you! I hope this helps someone in a moment of need.
"The joke's on them now!" Indeed Anne-Kathrin! Another great, inspirational video, thank you so much for sharing :)
(You're probably going to get quite a number of comment notifications from me; I've just discovered your channel and I'm so thrilled to have found a composer who is in my age group that I can really relate with -- so I'm basically going through and watching so many of your videos while I work). Truly appreciated this video and discussions. I have been composing orchestral music for about 15 years, but it's almost entirely been done "by ear" because I've never had the money for music education, despite trying multiple times over the years. I also have ADHD so I often have a difficult time retaining information, so this makes school settings more difficult for me, so there's been a legitimate question mark over whether or not an education would've even been good for me or if it would basically just shatter my poor fragile brain and body. I don't really know how to read or write music (though I've been very slowly trying to learn over the last two years). I did start getting REALLY interested in Music Theory during the pandemic and it quickly became a favorite topic. And similarly to you, it was interesting finding that I had already been using a lot of Music Theory "techniques" without even realizing it, I just hadn't known what to call them. Instead I was just composing and drawing from years of listening to composers like Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams, and implementing stuff I had heard them do.
But to your point(s) on the problem of elitism, I have had a lot of trouble getting music gigs over the years because of my lack of education credentials. And this isn't just an issue in Music, but it's really part of a systemic issue especially in America where you have so many jobs that don't even want to see your application unless it has college credentials attached to it, even if the job in question doesn't even require skills learned from college. But yeah, unfortunately I've lost a number of gigs over the years because the client did some deeper digging on my background/portfolio and didn't find any kind of music education credentials. I have no idea how widespread this issue is in the music community, I'm hoping it's not THAT big of a an issue, generally, for composers like me. But in my little slice of the universe it's definitely been an issue.
But I just carry on and do my thing and keep composing my own music, because ultimately I feel my "portfolio" should just speak for itself to any interested parties. But even aside from that, I just feel so much passion for music that not even the lack of an actual music career can keep me from just composing in my own time as a hobby.
Thank you so much for your videos, and your very down-to-earth approach to the whole thing, instead of taking a more "ivory tower" approach. It truly means a lot, and I know not just to me.
What a great video. I really appreciate your words here. It's basically the same reason, I didn't study music at a school. My education was basically to low, to even set a foot on the campus of music universities. So I just did my own research, read books, took a few classes from udemy, and luckily found your TH-cam Channel, which actually gave me all informations to build my career up to now. I'm very happy to have the chance accessing videos by professional content creators and industry professionals like you here on TH-cam. Thank you for this video and your inspiring words Anne-Kathrin ☺
As someone who got a degree in a different field and didn’t really delve into music composition until later in life I find channels like yours invaluable. With a family and a career going back to college right now isn’t an option and I can read the same textbooks that you read in college but getting a practical perspective isn’t easy to come by. Even teachers in colleges might have great academic knowledge but may have never worked as a professional composer so channels like this are a great educational resource even for those getting a degree in music.
I do indeed find that except for a handful of colleges, most of the teachers have either very little experience actually working in the field or their experience is very outdated. Some colleges bypass this problem by inviting a lot of guest lecturers but it doesn't really make up for the lack of practical knowledge in the day to day teaching. While school taught me a lot of useful things, I was quite shocked how little hands on knowledge I had when I started my first job.
I love music. I want to learn more about it, write it, make it. I want to support my son, who wants to do the same. Those are reasons enough for me. I doubt either of us will go to school to do any of that, particularly me at this point in my life and yet...I don't think that will end up limiting us...particularly him. Some of the things he writes...it just amazes me, but we are both teaching ourselves and each other. We find communities and other resources to educate ourselves outside of academia and we are patient. You, Anne, are one such resource for me. Both what you say in your videos and how you say it are indeed a spark of inspiration and I'm sure many of your subscribers feel the same...not just me.
"I am convinced half of their chords are just clusters" ..cracked me up! Very thoughtful and genuine perspectives throughout the whole video.. thank you so much for sharing your experience!!
What you are describing is basically what goes on everywhere in all areas of life. People try and protect their jobs and salaries by making out that they are unique. The best example is in the professions, like law and medicine. It’s simply everyone just protecting their jobs and income
I love this argument. Snobbery and exclusion doesn’t further Art. Also, the only way for art to progress is for artists to blend the sum total of their experience to the music or art. If you’ve heard Mozart, Duke Ellington, The Beatles and Danny Elfman, bring all of that influence through your music. Whether you formally analyze and study or just depend on your ears and taste, it’s all good. It’s all the same. Nobody needs the approval of academia to make art. Educate yourself to the degree it helps you to express something that you are thinking and hearing but can’t get to. Thank you Anne!!
You are so right, I am being told I can not study because Im not worthy or I am not privileged enough financially. I already have a degree and have learnt more on youtube or private classes.
thank you for sharing your knowledge
I had fun watching this - so many thanks! :-) Only one hint from a physicist - even in math there is no "right" or "wrong", since like music theory math is but a human made abstraction, not a natural science. And the reason why we are using one mathematical formulation or other is simply this: It just works well with some physics or other science to bring their models on a sheet of paper and it allows you to communicate on it and explain it. So math is very much like music, as a matter of fact. And as you know - even a tritonus may sound "right", if it fits the situation. ;-)
My whole life has been a lie!!! 😅 Thank you for the clarification though, much appreciated!
I was great at school and could play guitar well, but I was self taught. Music classes were the hardest classes in college and had a pretty brutal environment. I still play music, study theory, and write songs, but it was clear that the classroom was not right for me and many others. Glad you found a home at UCLA and a career in music. You are such a fighter. Really enjoying your videos.
I just discovered you through the AWFC newsletter (hello fellow female film composer!). I love your thoughts and couldn't agree with you more. I have also struggled so much in my career with the classical world as well. Your video felt so validating. ❤️ Thank you!
If we have to call "controversy" what should actually be the norm, then so be it 😉
I 100% agree with you, Anne-Kathrine, and have a few thoughts of my own, particularly with regards to gatekeeping: one can always (often?) hear that knowledge should be accessible to all, yet the majority of "providers" actually do everything they can to prevent access to knowledge. I certainly appreciate there are costs associated with learning, like providing infrastructures, materials, staff, etc., but I feel like that the norm is that knowledge is reserved to only a few selected ones, who, as you mentioned, do not accept a vision or perspective different to theirs ("elitism"). Also, they clearly see the Internet as an enemy, because it facilitates self-learning. Also, having to go into massive debt, thus affecting one's well-being, too, that too I cannot fathom why it is an acceptable practice.
I truly hope we can rid of those old dinosaurs sooner than later, it will eventually happen, and we can only hope we have made more progress by then, so that we can keep moving forward in a direction that is fair for everybody
knowledge has never been more easily and cheaply available before in history. Yes, universities are ridiculously overpriced (esp in art in relation to average the income prospects). But - and that's not just in reply to you - stop the complaining! So many other options available nowadays: buy books; go on TH-cam or similar and watch thousands and thousands of tutorials FOR FREE!; go on one of the many online course platforms and buy courses for fractions of the cost of universities (lots of great stuff out there). Things are really quite awesome today (I started learning before the internet; I've lived the changes it brought).
oh, and: some knowledge has to be earned. It doesn't just come to one for free just because one fancies it. And: you can only make proper use of it if you actually earn it.
also, some of your statements are blatantly false.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts an knowledge with the world - This is highly appreciated, at least by me! As music goes, I am but a self-taught amateur, but I still strive to learn as much as I can, even as I am approaching my sixties... 'Right' music is what feels right to you, what you feel tells a story or paints a landscape or evokes a particular feeling. The elitism actually made me reconsider and back off when I contemplated joining the music industry in one way or another back in my early days. Instead I got a degree in electronics and today I work as a patent attorney, but I have never given up music - I play, and listen, and learn as much as I can whenever I have the time to do so.
I'm slowly learning about composition, orchestration (even playing the piano) on my free time. I have a good career, but it is not my passion. I don't have the energy to do formal studies on the side, and I certainly don't feel comfortable giving up my very well paid job, and not be able to support my family on the hope that I become successful at creating music one day. I hope I can create good music one day, and I appreciate all the help that people like Anne-Kathrin provides to people like me.
For folks in the United States who feel compelled towards a formal education - consider junior/community colleges! Low or no cost, dedicated faculty, and usually small enough class sizes to allow for individualized attention.
Your channel us honestly incredibly underrated. You deserve way more subscribers. I follow some other composing channels and they don't talk about stuff this and it's really important.
I'm a professional artist with no formal art education. But I never stop learning. People have been buying my art for almost 20 years now, and noone has complained that I'm not 'qualified'. They enjoy what they see and are inspired to open their wallets. There's a mutual satisfaction. And yes, I can expound on the interpretation of a piece laced with all the isms verbiage much like an art critic, flashing my pseudo intellectual prowess... but it's not necessary when the work can speak for itself.
Love the start of this video.. buckling up!
Watching your videos and implementing your advice, I've learned in one month more than since I started learning music 2 years ago. None courses and\or TH-cam videos are even close to what you share! Keep it up🔥
I'm so glad to hear that! That's what this is all about!
Gatekeeping is probably the thing I abhor the most about my music profession. Thank you so much for this video. I had a similar journey as you, luckily eventually getting a partial scholarship. But I learned as much, if not more, outside of academia as inside. I just found you and I am fan.
I recently had an Master class at my Uni(where I study music) with Tom Holkengborg (aka Junkie XL) and he said “with all the respect I believe education should be free and that it was an unhealthy environment charging so much for education ”, you should of seen the professors’ faces. Their souls left their bodies.
And pretty much everything you said about education, same views, no matter where you get it youtube, books, friends in the field, tutors, anythings is a good source and it should be free.
sharing knowledge to the world will make it better, so Thank you for sharing not just your knowledge, but your experiences and help the community grow!
Excellent video - thanks for sharing your views! In my case the classical elitism actually discouraged me from studying music after the Abitur. I always had the impression that in Germany it was particularly bad, but over time I saw that's it's pretty universal. With some twists and turns I ended up becoming a musician anyway, just instead of classical Western music I'm now doing classical Japanese music now (and some quite idiosyncratic stuff). So, I completely agree with what you're saying: The gatekeepers are losing their power; the floodgates have opened. There are more avenues to music than formal education, now more than ever! (I'm tempted to say: "Power to the people", but that's so melodramatic .... 😁)
Thanks a lot for this video! I feel this so much. Though I have been writing and playing music for most of my life, I often felt excluded by "real" musicians. Studying music always felt to me like it was something for "the other kids", not the trash kid from a trash family that I thought myself of. I therefore assumed, despite having learned a bit of music theory in school, playing in a youth orchestra for a while and having played in two bands with class mates AND writing my own songs, that I would never be accepted in music school (in addition, my parents urged me to pursue a "real" career). So I didn't follow my passion in this way. Instead, I continued writing, playing and producing music on the side, as a hobby. It is only now that I have found people who appreciate what I am doing and support me enough that I have gained the confidence to put a little bit more thought and effort into it, but it took me so long to get here.
Sorry for the wall of text. Again, thank you for making this video. Just one more thing: did you watch Tantacrul's video on elitism in music? It is also a great video on this topic.
So sorry to hear that! Stories like this break my heart and really make me wish the status quo was different. I watched Tantacrul's video just now after you pointed it out. Really interesting thoughts that I very much agree with - plus his production value is way higher than mine. 🙂 Funny that this is being discussed so much right now. Something must be in the air...
Hello Anne-Kathrin, I can share your opinion 100 percent. I also listen to a wide variety of music genres and create my own songs, which sometimes sound rocky, sometimes pop, sometimes orchestral and often just mixed. I love classical instruments as well as synthesizers or distorted guitars. I play acoustic and electric guitar as an autodidact. I like analogue and I like digital, even a mixture of both. If there's one thing I hate, it's the arrogance of some professional musicians, musicologists and other know-it-alls. Music is there to be enjoyed, whether as a musician or as a listener. Even supposedly unprofessionally arranged music can be loved. It's all a matter of taste and not of the artificially imposed tape measure. I'm really happy to have subscribed to your channel.
Warm greetings from Germany!
Katrin,You are a true inspiration as usual! I have a high education diploma in classical music in Romania but...lots of things I'm self-taught even in My field. But the education system is poorly and if want to learn something higher need to go in Western countries academies to get a higher level. In the internet era TH-cam became the next University with such great teachers who make Me learn lots of things in minutes for We have to go to school years to listen a bad teacher and ending to not learn too much.. Academy education has to reconcider the attitude and learn to adapt because lots of higher education programs are scams giving students poor training with no practice and experience and with lots of debt. Good work Katrin...Alles Gut! :)
Sorry you had such a bad experience in academia. I totally understand you and here's my little rant about it. I am an ex-academic and have worked in a top 10 university globally. I left academia for good because my experience with the community in telecoms was horrible. I have seen professors in telecommunications who didn't know what a network switch looks like. Postdocs in radio communications who thought the S1 interface in LTE is a physical cable type. Heads of telecoms departments with PhD in TCP/IP who didn't know if there is a QoS field in the IP header. Celebrity professors going around giving speeches on virtualisation while texting me late at night to show them what a virtual machine looks like. Yeah, technical examples that many won't get but rather elementary things for people in this field, let alone for professors in a top 10 university who go around advising businesses and governments. And because they are trapped in this bubble, isolated from the real world, they like to think themselves as experts and science elite. I had colleagues who refused to work with professors from a 'lesser' university despite the fact that they were actually far more knowledgeable than them. And I am not even going into more serious matters such as plagiarism and misrepresentation of involvement. The academic community has very few people who are actually competent researchers and educators. Bottom line, if you can't do, teach. If you can do, go out there and do it, the money will be much better also.
Thank you very much for sharing so openly your experience. I like your human perspective, i.e. talking real things and knowing the diversity of people. btw a big respect for your eloquence. You and Jürgen (Klopp, FC Liverpool) are my motivators in learning languages. Cheers from Freiburg.
As an academic (not in the field of music) I am glad you clarified that theory is not 'a thing' per se but merely a way to explain and name the phenomenon in question, in this case music. There is far too much confusion, not just in music but in general, that theory precedes the phenomenon it is supposed to explain and thus lots of people think you cannot make music if you don't know theory, which is just nonsense. Having said that, not having studied music in a traditional sense has always been my biggest regret, not so much because I cannot learn those ideas anywhere else (your channel is proof that I can) but because it would have been, maybe, a great opportunity for networking and working with other musicians, orchestras etc. and maybe the best way to get a foot in what is already a narrow door. Alas, at the age of 33, I think that ship has sailed for me. Most MAs in music require a Bachelor's degree, and I don't think I can afford to spend another three years of my life in education at this point. But watching your video has made me question whether I would even enjoy doing a degree in composition. I have always hated academic elitism, and I saw my fair share of that while at university. Theory that is completely detached from practice also puts me off, though I seem to understand many universities now are integrating theory and practice and give the students opportunities to actually make music rather than just burying their noses in dusty old books all the time, or at least that is what many curricula online would suggest. Certainly, it might have been possibly the only way for me to ever get to work with an orchestra, something which mostly likely will remain just a dream at this point. Oh well, I suppose I am grateful for living in an age in which we have this amazing technology plus so much free information online. Thanks for these excellent videos. Feel free to check out my small channel, if you like: th-cam.com/video/XG_FjB4XHq4/w-d-xo.html
I went to University of North Texas for the music composition program but was severely let down. It seemed like all they cared about was the most abstract and avant-garde music that was notated with pictures of clouds and bunny rabbits. I realized I would never learn how to score a film in the program. The director had more of an ego about looking intellectual and sophisticated and cutting edge than caring about teaching practical skills to make a living. Berklee had a totally different vibe. They actually talked about music business and it was so much more relevant to the real world.
I agree and resonate. In a way i'm happy that I studied a lot by myself and from private tutoring rather than going to a music school. It made me understand things independently, albeit slower, but on a much deeper and personal level.
Thank you for your channel, information and liberating views.
Thank you Anne-Kathrin for sharing your story with us. It's showing again that we desperately need a new system of education (worldwide). It reminds me of some comments made by Sir Ken Robinson in Paradigm of Education. Putting people in a box and limiting/restraining education all started during the Age of Enlightenment and we still suffer from those decisions up today! When you think about it, what a paradox it is to choose a path of education, a job, or a skilled trade at 17-18 years old and been told that you'll do it for the rest of your working years. It's truly a blessing to have access to education at our fingertips and the elitism is soon to be over. Keep up your great work and sharing insights with us: peasants! haha! :)
I completely agree with you on every point. What you say applies not only to music, but to the entire school and university system. I grew up making music, in very different genres. However, I never became a professional musician, but continued to work in the natural sciences. But even there, it has to be said that the establishment has completely shot itself in the foot. Science, just like the music world, has to completely reinvent itself. And I think music has even made a good deal of progress on the right path.
Just dropped in to say that me and three of my mates make this decision at Friday night beersies, but anyone can write in, we always try to take the public's opinions into consideration.
Your experience in music academia is so similar to mine, but mine was all in the US. Basically, I was too poor to afford out-of-state tuition to go to California or New York, and while I was a very talented performer, my main instrument (bass clarinet) is not often found in orchestras and I'm not a good enough pianist to get into Berkley on just that. This left me stuck in Florida where (at the time I was first in school) there were no composition programs, only performance and education. So I ended up leaving music all together for about 10 years. Ended up going into health sciences. Now I'm doing music again, but on my own terms. I'm much happier this time around, not giving a crap about what anyone else thinks.
Like you, I took issue with the elitism in music school. I noticed a fascinating trend, however, among the students. For all of the elitism, there seemed to be an equal amount of sophomoric attitude among a number of the students. So there was a dichotomy of professors that kept the gates and a group of students that foolishly thought that the profs didn't know what was best. I came to realize that these students were merely tomorrow's elitist professors! Fortunately, there were many great teachers at my school that gave their knowledge liberally while also pushing themselves to evolve. I also had a circle of friends that were willing to listen and contribute rather than critique everything out of very little experience. Academia is often very toxic and it can be challenging to sanely navigate. Great video!
I add my voice to those of all the others here who appreciate and applaud your thinking. There is too much gatekeeping in so many artistic and scholastic areas-too much elitism, too much attempt to be the sole arbiter of what is good and what is not good, who is worthy of access to the sacred knowledge and who is not. The already great respect and esteem I had for you, your art, and your expression just doubled with this video. Thank you so much for posting this!
6:20 about this topic I’d like to add that a genius of composer such as Jerry Goldsmith learned almost everything privately (excluding few classrooms), with great teachers of course, but outside any form of college and conservatory…
I have independent concerns about the ready availability of putative information and the difficulty in developing the skills to evaluate and critique that putative information. It makes it too easy to think that one knows something that one does not, or to be overwhelmed by conflicting ideas without being able to get some foothold to begin making progress. But, it is better than no information being available. It's just that hearing/reading something, knowing that it is true, and knowing how to do things, are all very different. But that's much less specific than what you were addressing; and I really enjoyed hearing your views and experience. Thank you!
I do understand what you mean - now that absolutely everyone can put information out there, people need to develop skills to critically evaluate the source. Personally, I like to consume multiple resources about a topic I'm researching and then I see where the overlaps are. I will also look up the person who is presenting the information - if there is no work history to be found in the field, then I'll be more careful. But at the end of the day it's all about trying things out. I can watch 20 different videos about how to brew coffee with the Aeropress but I'll have to try out all those recipes and methods presented to actually find out what works for me personally.
Music Education can really be a detriment to creativity. I have a Bachelor's in music and a Master's in education and all of that knowledge makes you second (and triple and quadruple) guess everything you write. You are essentially writing for your professors and former educators because you feel compelled to use the knowledge you gain from them. I'm constantly reminding myself that music doesn't have to look correct, it has to sound good. If it sounds good, it's correct. No explanations needed. Leave the theory to the people that want to analyze your music.
I'm starting the Film Scoring program at UCLA Extension in a couple of weeks. If anyone reading this wants what looks like an amazing program with great faculty, this seems to be the spot. Full program is about $15,000 and you can pay for the courses as you go. Great for busy adults with jobs who want to transition into the craft. Love this channel.
Loved this video! I have been saying this in the UK for years. A very insightful look into a world that is changing slowly for the better. Great work and well said!
I knew I wasn´t an interpreter, nor a composer, but I wanted to work something related to music and or arts. So, I changed my business major to music because I wanted to be an arts manager. I was very clear with my goals, and I told everyone including my teachers. While I wasn't a brilliant student, I did Ok with theory, history, etc. I was terrible though at ear training, sight reading and playing. I played guitar before, I tried percussion, I tried piano...I didn't do well in those. But the worse part was that one of the teachers told me early on in his office that he thought I was no better than a leech, and that I wanted to live off of the talent of others. He added that he would do whatever he could to get me kicked out of there.
Although I couldn't pursue what I wanted to do, now I'm interested in music production for my own sake. It took me well over 10 years to pick up a guitar again, and a few years to even think about writing anything. Most of all, I wish to enjoy whatever I can learn and do in music.
I wish the best to anyone who wants to pursue this professionally. It's a tough road.
I have just recently discovered your channel and I am in awe at the level of insight you posses regarding music. This video in particular is a master class in what music making should be about-life affirming creative expression. I have been a victim of gate keeping in academia and its soul destroying arbitrary judgements about talent. Thank you for making your experience and knowledge available for all of us.
the gate keepers (often wrong; still needed at times)
the critics (they really shouldn't)
the client (they're always right - even when they're wrong)
the customers (they're always right)
I believe that each individual person decides what is good. Some music might be more technically advanced than others, but it doesn't make it any better than a punk rock song that consists of the same three chords repeated over and over. That's the great thing about music! There is no good or bad.
To me, music is a natural wonder. Academics study, nature, trees, plants, oceans, etc.. But these things exist entirely without the academics and book writers. As does music. It's an innate part of the human experience. IMO 😊 And I love your channel, it is excellent. What you teach, and how you present it, enriches the experience of and deepens the skills and appreciation of others. Very well done.
Extremely well formulated, Anne-Kathrin!
I sincerely hope that young people do take your advice to not get into serious depth to get a chique degree, but will follow their instincts instead, and just do what they’re best at (and enjoy most).
I understand your personal frustration (from my own experience, although in the field of engineeing -music is “just” a serious hobby for me) and it took me a long time to get over it. I now just laugh at the mediocracy of the gatekeepers: its all about self-interest to remain in power, afraid that more talented people burst their bubble of self-protection.
Anyone with talent can be successful.
We can’t say the same of anyone with a degree….
Je videos zijn super-interessant en top kwaliteit. Ga zo door!!!
I highly recommend Caustic 3, a $10 app that's like a scaled-down Ableton or FL Studio. It's changed my life. Even though I don't compose professionally yet, I love that the ability to compose has been unlocked and continues to grow.
I’ve never said “F@$% YEA” so many times whilst watching a TH-cam video. Thank you for what you’re doing Anne, love everything about it, God speed!
Ok, I know I'm late to the party, but I want to share my experience/point of view. I have a background in classical guitar, and I've never given a rat's ass about my studies. All I wanted to do at the beginning of my education was to play the electric guitar. Still, because of my parents, I had to study classical guitar since Italian Conservatories hadn't jumped yet on the Jazz and Pop performance degrees bandwagon when I started my education (approximately 2004/05). It was around my last 4 years that "classical" music (the proper term would be western music tradition), as my interest in composition blossomed out of the Music Theory classes. Once I got my degree (2016), I started looking around for a school that taught Composition for Films and Video Games. I had to rule out Canada and US for budgetary reasons (my parents told me right away we couldn't afford it). The UK schools I'd evaluated seemed approachable, though some were steep in price. The schools located in Scotland were more affordable, but I was unsure about the curriculum. In Italy, the situation was dire. Before 2010, Conservatories in Italy only had "vecchio ordinamento" courses. That meant your studies could span from 5 to 15 years. From 5 to 10 for instrument courses or the first 5 years of the piano course (or equivalent education) followed by other 10 years for composition, orchestral conducting, composition for marching band, composition for choir or choir conducting. The reform that standardized the courses to the Bachelor + Master's Degree formula kept in place the admission requirements of the old system without maintaining the same efficiency. With the old system, you would attend class from October to June/July of the following year, but the changes brought by the reform reduced classes to 30 hours per semester. That meant 3 months top of lessons per subject. So, I was a bit sceptical about going back and studying anything in any Italian Conservatory or music school. Since 2014 I have been studying composition privately and, in 2019, I felt prepared enough to enrol for a Master's Degree in Applied Composition, where I later graduated in 2021. Still, I genuinely wish I had endured the hard labour of the old system because it indeed was a make-it-or-break-it education system. When I see what composers with a traditional education can write, my jaw systematically hits the floor as I wish I had studied how to write with that level of proficiency or had learned how to orchestrate so masterfully. Whether we like it or not, knowing what happened in music centuries before leaves more room for experimentation, as you know what has been already done in the past, what's proven to work and what's not
the Beatles famously talked about music and composition using very general terms and not music theory terms, because they didn't study theory but instinctively knew stuff about music. music is a very instinctive art form, but since it's a language, like all languages, it helps a lot to learn the vocabulary and grammar, and will make you more eloquent. but like all languages, you don't need to know the theory behind it to be able to speak it well.
You rock. I come from a lower class family that possessed music as a very strong family tradition...( Like really your mom doesn't play every instrument) to be shocked that modern westerners do not utilize music beyond a hobby for the rich. It was quite shocking to say the least and the questions "how did you afford to learn all that" was very similar to "how do you afford to have blonde hair (in my ethnicity blonde hair is natural yet uncommon due to darker skin and eyes) which just happened. It's very very sad that music was culturally implemented as a categorical activity utilized to enhance the social status of wealthy people vicariously through their children. Who eventually grow to despise such. In 2003, I was the only female in a room of 100 men at the international music convention and in a world that is already all but virtually inaccessible by half the population, tacking on class just placed it further from the reaches of those who need it most. Thank you thank you thank you for presenting this topic.
I've been in the musical academia world my whole adult life but i've personally encountered more elitism from jazz bros than anywhere else. Glad you pointed that out
I have no degrees past high school. 25 years. Music is beautiful thank you for your videos. Always thought how orchestras are written. And it appears that it really is complicated. Internet slowly erases the gatekeepers that's damn right.
Thanks for posting this. You are so correct on the student loan issue. It is a travesty and should be done away with. There are so many ways to get education now. Your channel is among those I would recommend to anyone looking to further their training.
I continue to be shocked how some schools can charge an annual middle class income per year and get away with it, knowing fully well the average income after graduation is usually around the poverty line. It should be illegal, especially without an explicit disclaimer for every applicant.
I love this. So true. I’m a generation older but I’m totally inspired by young people who really want something so much that they will make the most interesting and exciting art and if they need to learn something they can find it on TH-cam
I spent this video pointing at the screen in fervent agreement but keeping quiet bc I didn't want to miss the next sentence. You preach it, Ms. Dern! Yes! I can personally attest to many points made here.
Without doubt - probably the single, BEST explanation of why people make music. I too, have always decried the issue of Academia - who stifle creativity, innovation and advancement of music. You have made so many good arguments that in my humble estimation could not ever be refuted, denied or as in so many cases - admitted to by those who would deny it. Brilliant commentary Anne-Kathrin - I TOTALLY agree with it. I was a vocalist all my life. I'm degreed, taught voice for a time and always felt that even we are put into a box of specific control by the elite who think that you should do it their way. Granted, it IS a PHYSICAL issue that must be preserved, cared for, seriously controlled for your own vocal life. But don't tell me that one type of vocal music is the ONLY way that's worth listening to. And it relates to your comments about music in general. Even my college theory teacher - said during first year - that we MUST do it according to the book. Second year (and this is why I LOVED my college theory teacher) - but second year he said essentially, just compose music, from the heart, what you love, whatever style MOVES you to create. I think that's what you're saying - at least I think I get the gist of it. And frankly I don't think in my 75 years I've ever heard it stated any better than you just did in this video. You, young lady, have your finger on the pulse of what music is, can be, should be - unrestrained, not hindered by convention, not criticized by self-appointed demeaning so-called experts EVER ANY TIME AT ALL!! BY ANYBODY!! Good for you. An artist friend of mine always said - and he was a potter, a writer and a musician doing what he wanted - but he always said art is so SUBJECTIVE but "if it's art with you, it's art with me"!! And that's how I have done anything I do creatively - my way whether it's good, bad or anywhere in between. I do what pleases me and try to make good music. And there is always someone who appreciates it out there. And that's all we can expect - even if it's only ONE!! THANKS for this great commentary. Brilliant indeed.
Liebe Anne-Kathrin, vielen vielen Dank für deine Videos, deine Meinung und deine Expertise. Ich kann so gut nachfühlen, was Du in diesem Video sagst. Ich habe selbst mit 20 zur Musik gefunden und bin auf dem Weg Medien Komposition zu studieren, entweder an einer Uni oder eben auf eigenem Wege, wenn es nicht anders gehen sollte. Danke für all dein großzügiges Wissen - du bist auf diese Art eine Bereicherung und tolle Begleitung. Roman aus Marburg in Hessen :)
In my adolescence, my classical guitar teacher/mentor had a profound impact on my view of art that I carry with me to this day. He was a flawed individual, and not every lesson was a good one. But he really impressed upon me the idea that good art is good art, whether it's 20th century avante garde classical music, or indie Memphis rock. One day he would have me listen to Bach, then classical Indian music, then the Replacements. And he had deeply held opinions about all of it, but never was something discounted because it fell into a certain style that wasn't seen as respectable by academia. So I always roll my eyes and question their judgment whenever someone elevates their opinion to be the arbiter of what is considered "art."
Thanks for that...as someone who never got a college degree, I resonate with your remarks. A lack of formal education did not stop me from becoming a professional writer, a broadcasting professional, an ad agency executive, a recording engineer, a music composer, and other roles I have assumed over the past 6.5 decades. It all was about self-education, passion, determination, practice, and repetition.
One of Debussy's teachers told him his harmonic ideas only work '...if you're a genius.' ...WELL ;)
Frank Zappa is a great example of genius without the formal conservatory education, as well.
I like your comment that people should be allowed access to learn what they want to the depth that they want. I am an engineer by training, and music came from playing when I was young, and listening and enjoying it later. I have read a few books, but that was enough so that I would have a language to express what I was thinking and feeling. As an adult, I wrote on the audience facing blog of my local symphony, they also had musicians and academic trained musicologists writing for them to help educate the audience, I was the non-professional writing so the audience could feel free to feel and think as they did while they listened and enjoyed the music. As a side benefit, I could carry a conversation with my now wife, who is a conservatory trained pianist. :-)
Very excellent video Anne, I've encountered a variety of prejudices that I find tiresome with the elite. For instance, they imagined that since I'm Cuban, I knew how to create Caribbean music XD, and during an interview, a member of the audience questioned whether I was scared by Hollywood composers from the past. Are you serious? I think the so-called elitists, whom I refer to as the boys' club, are disgruntled because thanks to technology, education, and, let's be honest, TH-cam, we no longer need to attend schools and rely on them. That is essentially the point made. I am extremely happy of having begun my education as a self-learner since I was willing to learn as much as possible from wherever resource I find to make me happier.
The worst thing an academic can do to a student, is to cut off his/her wings, even when the learning curve is quite flat, while on the other hand the student is willing to devote and try hard and try harder.
And if you think more about it and are able to begin a conversation about these issues, you'll end up speaking about regulations, politics and then economic systems. :)
Absolutely agree with 100% you said.
I’m in my fifties and I recently learned cinematography, film editing and now I will start learning music scoring and composition. Im watching all your videos. Thanks for sharing and music lessons. You are very much appreciated by many.
You're totally right! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences.. Life is life and you have to live it with your own means as well as with your own madness and creativity.. See Egberto Gismonti who started is mastering of music first by going from Brazil to France and studying with the great Nadia Boulanger.. then going back to Brazil and immerse himself in the life and culture of Brazilian indian forest people to understand their relation to music, sounds, nature and universe.. he then came out with a profound and highly personnal music style which will stand up the changes of times..
Anne, you probably know the story: Tchaikovsky was not admitted to the Moscow Conservatory that now bears his name ;-)
Thank you for your insights and teachings! Warm greetings from one of your preferred countries, The Netherlands.
Jumping on the jazz talk - we are playing those chords without the roots to give the bass players chance to transform the changes - all the fun in a jazz combo starts from the "rootless voicings". Great channel BTW!
"Why are you playing chords without the root note? Are you looking for trouble??" LMFAO 🤣 I never understood why my teacher put so many red marks on my assignments when we were analyzing cadences. Turns out, he and I just looked at things differently.
When it comes to education, my thoughts are very simple: There needs to be more "Free and open educational resources."
In ICT, there's a term called FOSS, comes from Free and Open Source Software. We are very willing to pour our hearts and souls with years of our time in FOSS development so others can use those tools and software in their own projects, work and whatever, without any expectations of reimbursement of any kind. This mentality should be even more prevalent in developing educational resources.
Thank you for being so generous with your time to share. I agreed. It is sad. Unfortunately, things will remain “paid to play,” and without those documents, there is no job available. It would be high-level professionals like you who would have to hire or provide opportunities for people without those documents to shine. Some people always feel, “I had to do it, so do you,” and those people know that the value of that education was limited, and it was primarily self-taught. The subject of formal education is significant and will require decent, kind-hearted people to change things on different levels and in other professions
I honestly, genuinely wouldn't have guessed there would be people criticising you for giving away information for the sole reason they had to pay for it. Who does that? Who has so little self reflection that this impulse makes it from your subconscious, passes your conscious mind and results in the decision to type it in AND THEN send the comment?
Thank you for your channel!
The thing is that what is not traditional depends on a tradition of thought about music to be developed. Example : Stockhausen’s music, and Schoenberg. They dialogue with traditional categories, opposing or recontextualizing them. The key of learning traditional syles is that they are easier to conceive in some extent (for ex. a menuet) and there you have oportunity to think about universal categories of musical perception already . Now: of course university today is most concerned with gender than with beauty/expression… So you are right if studying alone, or being cautious about sources.
Back in the day I wanted to go to school for music. I was really good on trumpet, but wanted to learn composition. Anyway, mostly due to the compettiveness of the music school near me (Cincinnati) I ended up just going into liberal arts (history), and just kept music as a hobby. I got a synthesizer with a sequencer, a 4 track, a computer, and later various DAWs. I got some theory books from my aunt (who went to school to be a music teacher), and gradually bought books on theory and orchestration, taught myself by going through them and experimenting on the synth. I've been composing for fun for decades now, but really haven't done anything with it. I tend to make up stuff on the spot with the intent of polishing it later, but tend to never get back to it. Oh well. In the last few years, TH-cam has really become a resource I would've killed for back in the 90's. There are so many more resources for learning theory and getting a realistic description of the music business now from channels like yours and Rick Beato, etc.. . It feels like there's more opportunity to learn from a community without all the siloed resources and gatekeepers that were always there. I really appreciate what you're doing on your channel. Please keep it up.