Ive done this throw in many different martial arts, its super common everywhere. All of them have variations on focus and exactly where and how to break ballance using it, all of them work, all of them have pros and cons. In my fencing ive done all of them. Reading the german sources it is still unclear to me exactly which version is explained. There may be several different or one and the same. To little details and often ambigious explanations
Very cool, any technical names for this technique in the other martial arts? Specifically the arm/weapon wrap + the outside wind/crank to the neck? (I'll also be looking at what's specifically documented in terms of variations & counters in the medieval tradtions in Part 2 next week...)
@@forteswordplay in sundanese silat this technique is known as kenjit or kenjit siko, kenjit means compression or to compress, siko means elbow, so to compress through the elbow. It is most often used in a less rotational manner, more like a vertical compression. In malaysian buahpukul it is known as sebarang, which I dont know what means but think is a reference to turning. In buahpukul it is less about throwing and more about establishing an offballanced position from which you can freely deliver blows.
I hope the Frequens Motus drill framework (and liveliness drills in general) will help more complex / interesting techniques like this occur more and more regularly. It's all about good reps.
Thanks, having specific technical names is super valuable! So kinjit is specifically the backward throw component? th-cam.com/users/shortsk1Qoyv2_dT4?si=M-1H-JliipxTcgmn
@@forteswordplay kenjit, means to compress, often specificly called kenjit siko, to compress through the elbow, as opposed to kenjit kaki, which means to compress the knee. Ive learned it in 3 different heights and 2 different directions, as well as both on the outside and the inside of the opponents arm. What you do wit the opponents weaponhands depends on the weapon and where and how you ended up there
@@shotgunridersweden Yep. Fundamental principle in Silat - What you can do high you can do low. What you can do inside you can do outside. It's just movement
Probably a good idea to learn a bit of basic falling and not just rely on a thick mat to save you. Primary thing is to put your chin on your chest to protect the head and neck when falling backwards. Maintain a rounded back so you don't fall like a dead tree. To practice sit in the ground and hold your knees to your chest, chin on your chest then roll backwards. Your pack should be rounded so you roll back into the fall rather than just flopping. When you are comfortable with that, rise up to a squat and do the same maneuver. Then from standing- stand- bend knees, squat, roll back. You need to receive the throw when practicing and not try to block it. As your partner applies it- chin on chest, bend knees, rounded back, roll backwards.
There are a couple similar throws in Judo (suki name, Tani otoshi). One of the mis conceptions of these ( even among Judo people) is that you are blocking with the leg and pushing your opponent over the leg. This approach will work, but it allows your opponent to push back against it and there is a risk io injury to you knee if things go wrong. The Judo throws actually rely on getting your opponents butt past his heels and then dropping weight to apply the technique. In the position illustrated in the video, both of these ends can be achieved by the attacker bending his knees to drop his weight ( kind of like sitting in a chair). It can actually be done quite slowly and still work. This approach is also very difficult to resist as there really isn't much to push back into. Absolutely no clue if this is the original way it was done, but this is an effective and efficient method and I suspect lots of people figured it out.
Much appreciated! Having the terminology references from other arts is super helpful, as well as insights on the nuances of how related techniques are executed in other arts. HEMA has a long and fun path ahead in integrating dcoumented grappling techniques into regular armed fencing, every bit of constructive advice welcome
Yeah, that is why I did at my "school". I've done 15+ years of Judo and wrestling before going into HEMA. realized right away that most of the students couldn't fall at all. Safety first, so we changed that
I don't know much about sword fighting, but what would happen if your opponent would just pull back their sword, wouldn't you run the risk of having the inside of your arm cut?
It's a deceptively strong lock, there's not much chance of getting cut when its engaged. If they do try to pull there sword back from that position then the agent initiating the throw responds as needed.
First, a compliment. I really like the camera you are using. Ok, now the bad part, What you are describing for almost all of the video is not what the manual is describing. It is close enough that I am fine with calling it a variation, but please don't present this as the "by the book" play application. I mean you more or less do the actual by the book technique at the 5:00 mark, so why are you presenting this not manual thing, as a manual thing. That's it, just say: "here is this manual play (show that), but we think that it is a little hard/whatever, to pull off in actual sparring/a real fight, so we like this slight alternative better". then proceed with everything else in the video, which is actually fine information.
Yeah, when I stared out years ago that kind of stuff confused me quite a bit too. When cut with the proper edge alignment, appropriate force etc a well executed cut can do a lot of damage. But if those elements are missing, for example when a sword gets trapped like that so you can't really do any slicing motions directed against the target, the edge won't do anything. Especially since wool and linen are actually quite hard to cut through. Much more than our modern t-shirt are.
Similar to tani otoshi (valley drop) in Judo.
Ive done this throw in many different martial arts, its super common everywhere. All of them have variations on focus and exactly where and how to break ballance using it, all of them work, all of them have pros and cons. In my fencing ive done all of them. Reading the german sources it is still unclear to me exactly which version is explained. There may be several different or one and the same. To little details and often ambigious explanations
Very cool, any technical names for this technique in the other martial arts? Specifically the arm/weapon wrap + the outside wind/crank to the neck?
(I'll also be looking at what's specifically documented in terms of variations & counters in the medieval tradtions in Part 2 next week...)
@@forteswordplay in sundanese silat this technique is known as kenjit or kenjit siko, kenjit means compression or to compress, siko means elbow, so to compress through the elbow. It is most often used in a less rotational manner, more like a vertical compression. In malaysian buahpukul it is known as sebarang, which I dont know what means but think is a reference to turning. In buahpukul it is less about throwing and more about establishing an offballanced position from which you can freely deliver blows.
Great to see it demonstrated in a livelyness drill to learn to be able to pull it off in sparring.
I hope the Frequens Motus drill framework (and liveliness drills in general) will help more complex / interesting techniques like this occur more and more regularly. It's all about good reps.
This throw in several variations is known as a kinjit in Indonesian martial arts against an armed or unarmed opponent
Thanks, having specific technical names is super valuable! So kinjit is specifically the backward throw component? th-cam.com/users/shortsk1Qoyv2_dT4?si=M-1H-JliipxTcgmn
@@forteswordplay kenjit, means to compress, often specificly called kenjit siko, to compress through the elbow, as opposed to kenjit kaki, which means to compress the knee.
Ive learned it in 3 different heights and 2 different directions, as well as both on the outside and the inside of the opponents arm. What you do wit the opponents weaponhands depends on the weapon and where and how you ended up there
@@forteswordplay It is although the person being thrown can be facing either direction.
Thanks @toddellner5283 & @shotgunridersweden, always good to learn more, you'll get a mention in the next vid...!
@@shotgunridersweden Yep. Fundamental principle in Silat - What you can do high you can do low. What you can do inside you can do outside. It's just movement
The throw yes...nice.
I see that first I'll try to realy get this Zwerch from the upper bind done well. There I'm lacking...I get to the throw later 😛
I've heard war wresteling was done with weapons at hand unlike modern counter-part.😇 And it is interesting, for sure🎉
Probably a good idea to learn a bit of basic falling and not just rely on a thick mat to save you. Primary thing is to put your chin on your chest to protect the head and neck when falling backwards. Maintain a rounded back so you don't fall like a dead tree. To practice sit in the ground and hold your knees to your chest, chin on your chest then roll backwards. Your pack should be rounded so you roll back into the fall rather than just flopping. When you are comfortable with that, rise up to a squat and do the same maneuver. Then from standing- stand- bend knees, squat, roll back. You need to receive the throw when practicing and not try to block it. As your partner applies it- chin on chest, bend knees, rounded back, roll backwards.
There are a couple similar throws in Judo (suki name, Tani otoshi). One of the mis conceptions of these ( even among Judo people) is that you are blocking with the leg and pushing your opponent over the leg. This approach will work, but it allows your opponent to push back against it and there is a risk io injury to you knee if things go wrong. The Judo throws actually rely on getting your opponents butt past his heels and then dropping weight to apply the technique. In the position illustrated in the video, both of these ends can be achieved by the attacker bending his knees to drop his weight ( kind of like sitting in a chair). It can actually be done quite slowly and still work. This approach is also very difficult to resist as there really isn't much to push back into. Absolutely no clue if this is the original way it was done, but this is an effective and efficient method and I suspect lots of people figured it out.
Much appreciated! Having the terminology references from other arts is super helpful, as well as insights on the nuances of how related techniques are executed in other arts. HEMA has a long and fun path ahead in integrating dcoumented grappling techniques into regular armed fencing, every bit of constructive advice welcome
Yeah, that is why I did at my "school". I've done 15+ years of Judo and wrestling before going into HEMA. realized right away that most of the students couldn't fall at all. Safety first, so we changed that
Very similar to Goyang throw of Pencak Silat
I don't know much about sword fighting, but what would happen if your opponent would just pull back their sword, wouldn't you run the risk of having the inside of your arm cut?
It's a deceptively strong lock, there's not much chance of getting cut when its engaged. If they do try to pull there sword back from that position then the agent initiating the throw responds as needed.
First, a compliment. I really like the camera you are using. Ok, now the bad part, What you are describing for almost all of the video is not what the manual is describing. It is close enough that I am fine with calling it a variation, but please don't present this as the "by the book" play application. I mean you more or less do the actual by the book technique at the 5:00 mark, so why are you presenting this not manual thing, as a manual thing. That's it, just say: "here is this manual play (show that), but we think that it is a little hard/whatever, to pull off in actual sparring/a real fight, so we like this slight alternative better". then proceed with everything else in the video, which is actually fine information.
I was thinking basically the same thing and going to say that as well.
I know nothing of sword fighting but won't an actual sword cut u with this technique?
Not if you're wearing clothes. Even with bare skin, when you do the arm wrap properly and you don't let the opponent's blade slide, it won't cut.
Yeah, when I stared out years ago that kind of stuff confused me quite a bit too.
When cut with the proper edge alignment, appropriate force etc a well executed cut can do a lot of damage. But if those elements are missing, for example when a sword gets trapped like that so you can't really do any slicing motions directed against the target, the edge won't do anything. Especially since wool and linen are actually quite hard to cut through. Much more than our modern t-shirt are.