I would be happy with an EV if it can properly simulate a ICE part-throttle torque curve while the vehicle is experiencing wheel spin. One of the nice things of ICEs with simplistic throttle body control and a manual transmission is that when the wheel start spinning with moderate throttle, the engine torque would naturally plummet and can even reduce to engine braking. This makes it very easy to modulate wheel spin without the intervention of traction control. Many manufacturers kept on linearizing the throttle, making it a true torque request pedal instead of an airflow controller. BeamNG has an excellent write up on part-throttle torque curves and why it's important. Also, a third pedal or a lever to quickly disable regen is also important, in case I need the drivetrain to free wheel to stabilize the vehicle in a slide.
I don't understand what you're saying: an ICE car engine doesn't reduce its torque output when wheelspin occurs, let alone then start engine braking. Also, no need to disable regen to free wheel in a slide - just don't back off so far.
@@JulianEdgar on cable throttle bodies, and DBW systems that doesn't use torque modeling, the accelerator pedal directly controls the amount of area that can flow through the throttle body, directly limiting the max airflow the engine can draw, controlling torque. However, the maximum airflow the engine can draw is dictated by the engine's RPM and volumetric efficiency curve, which increases as the RPM rises. So at idle, older performance ICEs with large throttle bodies have a tendency to feel "jumpy", as it doesn't take much throttle input to reach maximum airflow at a low RPM. However, at high RPMs where the engine is drawing much more air, the full throttle range can be used to control the amount of torque produced or even to control overrun. Now, take the concept of free revving an engine. An engine idling in neutral is effectively producing zero torque. Quickly apply and hold light throttle in neutral. The engine would start producing torque, which would cause the RPM to increase. The airflow demand would increase, which would eventually slow the RPM rise until it settles where the engine can't produce more torque to overcome typical engine and accessory drag. The engine RPM is higher, but it's still technically producing zero torque. Now, applying these concepts to a vehicle lightly accelerating, when it suddenly breaks traction. Upon breaking traction, the engine RPM would increase, demanding more airflow. Assuming that the transmission is locked in gear, there's no traction control intervention, and the driver isn't applying heavy throttle, the engine RPM would rise until it can't accelerate from airflow limitations. The wheel speed has increased, but the wheel torque has dropped. This makes it very easy for an experienced driver to modulate wheel spin, as the engine would naturally produce less torque as the engine RPM rises with part-throttle, and produces more torque as the engine RPM drops. Compare that to a linearized torque model, where the accelerator pedal commands a specific torque value, independent of wheel speed or engine RPM (for ICE vehicles). When the vehicle breaks traction, the wheel speed would increase, but the wheel torque would be held constant. Combined with how the tire traction would reduce as wheel slip increases, this would cause the wheel speed to quickly accelerate with almost no end. It's very frustrating that most manufacturers are pushing towards this torque model, as this is ideal for street driving, especially since they can always rely on traction control intervention instead of driver intervention. But with performance driving, where many stability control systems do not allow excessive vehicle yaw, it becomes a hindrance. But with traction control disabled, the linear torque model really becomes an issue with controlling wheel spin.
@@JulianEdgar and as for regen, one scenario I can think of was one track drive POV cam with Sasha's Hybrid 350Z. There was an incident where the vehicle started fishtailing in the track from excessive regen torque. On a normal vehicle, one can simply apply the clutch, or shift into neutral to quickly disconnect the powertrain. Unfortunately, neither options were available, as the clutch and h-pattern transmission was replaced with a sequential and direct drive motor. While yes, it is possible to freewheel the drivetrain by holding the accelerator at the specific position, this is very difficult to perform in the heat of the moment, as the driver also had to keep the vehicle from spinning out. Fortunately, he did not crash, but it's a major concern I have with the transition to soft touch shift controls.
I have to agree throttle control is great, however I do believe that is the second best thing; the first is the center of gravity being usually being under the driver's feet, and spot on the middle of the car. that white MG ? It has that (I have one too. losts of software issues bu t dynamics are ok). Added bonus: not making much sound makes them pretty immune to handheld speed cameras. Depending on the EV, you can also select the throttle response curve, from completely linear to similar to a regular petrol car. There is also a one pedal mode that engage brakes once regen is maxed out and your foot is off the pedal. Note: not an integrist. I have a highly modded euro S13.
I think off throttle/regenerative braking is one of the best features of an EV. I love ICE cars with relatively light rotating assemblies/flywheels/wheels etc, for the engine braking. Being able to slow down significantly to without using the brakes is something hard to get across to other enthusiasts.
That's funny, because any experienced driving enthusiast would demand strong engine braking action. FWD engine braking would help point the front wheels into the corner and perform lift-off oversteer. RWD engine braking would lock the 2-way LSD and straighten out the rear end (if equipped).
Once again great video. And I totally agree with Julian on this one. All cars are nice. I don't understand those folks who are "against evs" or those "against hybrids ", or "against hatchbacks", or "against v8s", "against trucks", "against asian made", "against euro cars" , etc etc. All cars serve a purpose and I think a true enthusiast is cool with all kinds of power powertrain, body type, made etc. Also tuning and modifying a car for soft ride or fuel economy is as cool and interesting as doing it for looks or track use.
That white MG has 200hp, is RWD and weights 1.6 tons, with 50/50 weight distribution. It also costs less than any petrol car with similar power (heck where I live, it costs less than any petrol car with half the power. it costs 10k less than a model 3, for the luxury version). I know, because i have one :D it is cheap though. You get what you pay for. Chassis wise though, it just needs stiffer compression and rebound. For 7000€ more you get the AWD, 450hp version. cant beat that.
Never been anti ev, I just prefer lightweight and manual. Obviously manual won't be around much longer, and the current new car trend doesn't inspire confidence when it comes to weight either. Keeping an open mind though.
My MG4 X-Power weighs 1800kg (3960lb). I have had quite a few ICE cars that weigh that or more. Manual trans - I can take it or leave it; probably more the case of leave it these days. The PDK trans in the Porsche is quicker than any manual.
@@JulianEdgar My only car ownership experience is a 2015 manual corolla and a manual gr86. I've driven lots of other cars but nothing has gelled with me except that archetype (keeping in mind I haven't driven an EV yet). Realistically I could see myself getting a cheap ev hatchback later down the line. I would much rather something like you described in the video over the new ICE vehicles I've driven.
I was reading about a test on the Nurburgring of the Tesla Plaid, from the telemetry it was visible that car was accelerating better than it was braking, because the motors can be controlled faster than the ABS hydraulics. About regen while stepping off the "gas" pedal: I feel it can be a safety feature too.
As a driving instructor I should add: 1) Instant throttle response of EV are good only for experienced enthusiasts and very bad (dangerous) for novice drivers and bad drivers; 2) One pedal driving is very bad for beginners. They do not learn to use brakes properly. Do we need drivers who are not trained to brake in case of emergency? (in everyday driving they have very little time operating a brake pedal) Do we need drivers who are not trained to use brakes for weight transfer? I have experience of driving and teaching clients in a few EV’s - Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, VW e-Golf. VW is far better than everything else and can be driven without regenerative braking. Tesla is terrible
While I agree with you that 1-pedal driving is very bad for learner drivers, I would say that the instant throttle response is actually a good thing. Back when I was a student driver, my school had 2 cars, one gas and one electric. Using the accelerator pedal in the electric car felt very intuitive for me and other students, because there was no lag in the pedal and you always got what you asked for from the vehicle. By contrast, the accelerator pedal in the gas car had some delay in it, which made driving a bit scarier because there was a moment of uncertainty every time I pressed the pedal. And this uncertainty was even worse if the car decided to shift gears when the driver pressed the pedal.
I don't think the arguments against EVs were ever anything much more than excuses for those that don't like change, there's been "too slow", "too quiet" "no vibration" "no gears" "charging speeds" "limited range" a host of environmental fallacies, each of which have been answered. I can appreciate a view that driving enjoyment for engines is about trying to extract the best from an imperfect drivetrain, selecting / changing gears at just the right time not be caught in the wrong gear etc and if it's too easy it loses the enjoyment. The "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow" kind of thing. I think like handling, a drivetrain that communicates with the driver is more involving. I would be interested to hear you're thoughts on the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N and it's virtual gearbox, it sounds gimmicky yes, but if it's what people want and brings driving enjoyment why not?
@@JulianEdgar I think we could make the same case if autonomous cars became a reality and steering wheels became obsolete. Sure then we can say they were not needed if all cars drove themselves. But that's not an argument to get rid of it if it brings driving enjoyment. I understand some people hate on EVs and anything new, but it is objectively a much less engaging experience. Once all cars are EVs this is a serious threat to how sportscars differentiate themselves. Now you have all the different power delivery, sounds, weight distribution etc of different ICE layouts, what happens when a Porsche 911 has basically the same motor and batteries all located in the same position as a Tesla? Basically all car reviewers have praised the Ioniq 5N as the most fun EV and have mentioned the simulated gears and sound actually help with judging corner entry speeds and engagement. If engineers don't copy this approach I think the whole fun-car segment is doomed, when you can get a 2.5ton family suv that feels broadly the same as a compromised 'sportscar'.
It seems a very theoretical argument. Do you own an EV? Have you driven one? I don't find it any less engaging an experience - in fact I find it a very exciting experience indeed. I also can't see how being an EV lessens car differentiation any more than any other cars with similar engines - eg those with six cylinder turbos. If your enjoyment of a car is predicated on how cars once had to be made, rather than how they can be made now (eg presence or absence of a gearbox), then we're on different wavelengths entirely. (And incidentally it's just the same argument that was once used against EFI versus carbies - EFI just took away all the enjoyment. And against AWD. And against turbos. And against....)
@@JulianEdgar yes i have driven a Model3. Im not saying EVs aren’t fun, they’re still a bit of a novelty now. My argument is once everything is EV premium/sporty brands will face a huge differentiation problem. They all feel broadly the same in everyday driving. How can you differentiate a Mustang from an M3 from an AMG? Now you can even when just commuting in traffic. When these things are EVs they’ll all be the same, unless they find a way to fake a unique experience. It’s certainly true this has already happened in most mainstream ordinary cars as everything is a turbo inline 4 automatic nowadays. Going back to the 70s brands in that segment were offering more of a variety of layouts, now it’s all the same. Difference now is you can’t sell sportscar experience if 95% of the time your ev Mustang feels exactly the same as a 30k ev hatchback.
We'll agree to disagree then. I find every new car I drive different - often hugely so. Steering response, ergonomics, throttle mapping, grip, balance, ride quality... they're all different. To me it's like saying that all diesel engine cars drive the same... obviously false! I can't see any faking is necessary in EVs - except to persuade motoring writers who invariably scorn anything new.
What kind of click bait is this? You just can’t keep toting out clearly reasoned and thought out views. It’s just not how this stuff works! Seriously - another great video. Thank you. 👍
Click bait? I expected the video to rate poorly and it certainly is - very few views. But it's something I thought needed to be said. It's one of the frustrating things about car enthusiasts and modification - so many people remain 10-20 years behind where they could be in their understandings and applications.
@@JulianEdgar It's an awesome video. I have a Lotus and a tesla MY. I'd never thought about it like that. The tesla has brutal throttle response. It also has very good DSC and I haven't played with it. But it's the family car. :o
I get what you are saying , but as an enthusiast, I would rather have something lightweight with excellent handling and steering feel and mild power that you have to work to keep it in the rev range so that you can drive enthusiastically on normal roads without doing go to jail speeds .
I've driven electric vehicles, I was a hyundai tech. I knew what you were going to say before you said it as I've been there, but the minus with their throttle control is the regen braking or coasting. it's hard to coast without extra manipulations, and the regen is set by (usually) a steering wheel pedal.
Not sure what you mean? Nearly all EVs have adjustable regen, so if you like coasting, set it like that. Anyway, even with high regen, if you want to coast, you just don't back off so far.
@@JulianEdgar you can't go from one to the other without extra manipulations, that's my point. The backing off slightly to coast is not as smooth with every EV (or none I drove or currently drive)
I don't get it. If you want to coast, set the regen to coast. You can still regen by putting your foot gently on the brake, just as you brake with an ICE car. If you want regen, set the regen to give it. I can't see how this is all a disadvantage over an ICE car. In one mode, you use two pedals (just like an ICE car - so no disadvantage there). In the other mode, you use one pedal (so no disadvantage there). What is the issue? - I don't understand.
The instantaneous-ness of EV torque is one of my favorite aspects. Though some automakers do so much smoothing that they lose a decent amount of responsiveness, Mustang Mach-E comes to mind. I can initiate a drift, cancel, and initiate that drift again all within a single turn with the accelerator in my IONIQ 5, it would be challenging to do that in an ICE. I had a supercharged 3.0T Audi A6 Quattro before and while that was a wonderful & responsive drivetrain you really had to plan-ahead (downshifting) if you wanted healthy torque in a corner. I understand that a lot of folks like that aspect, but I always found it to be a hassle. As you mentioned driving spiritedly with one-pedal-driving enabled can also be quite fun. I'd love to try an IONIQ 5N with it's strong regen but admittedly I'm probably not a good enough driver to handle that potential liftoff-oversteer on public roads lol.
the problem I have with the ev's ive driven is that they just feel kind of dead. Objectivley they handle better and have more power than anything I could ever afford, but I like cars are a bit ratty and inefficient. Maybe theres something wrong with me but I like a car thats janky, thats why I only drive garbage. I feel the same way about newer cars in general, EV's just take it to another level
@@JulianEdgar It does, at least in my mind, as I dont like how precise the throttle control is on electric vehicles. I just wanted to elaborate a bit on it and my reasoning. Guess I just didnt word it well
@@JulianEdgar I think what he might be getting at is this: Certain turbo gasoline engines can feel exponential in their power output, which makes them easier on the driver compared to an electric car's throttle which require more fine muscle control compared to the turbo gasoline one. For certain turbo gasoline cars it can feel like we are either on power or not on power with little play which can make the driver feel safer I suppose. I know that modern EVs and Automatic gasoline engines alike have ECO modes that can imitate that behavior for easier driving around the city. Though I think most enthusiasts enjoy the fine motor control required to drive cars with quicker torque output. Maybe he is just an economy focused driver.
Good point. I think also that regenerative breaking is a great substitute for engine breaking.
Regen braking is far more linear, and greater in magnitude, than any engine braking I have experienced.
I would be happy with an EV if it can properly simulate a ICE part-throttle torque curve while the vehicle is experiencing wheel spin. One of the nice things of ICEs with simplistic throttle body control and a manual transmission is that when the wheel start spinning with moderate throttle, the engine torque would naturally plummet and can even reduce to engine braking. This makes it very easy to modulate wheel spin without the intervention of traction control. Many manufacturers kept on linearizing the throttle, making it a true torque request pedal instead of an airflow controller. BeamNG has an excellent write up on part-throttle torque curves and why it's important.
Also, a third pedal or a lever to quickly disable regen is also important, in case I need the drivetrain to free wheel to stabilize the vehicle in a slide.
I don't understand what you're saying: an ICE car engine doesn't reduce its torque output when wheelspin occurs, let alone then start engine braking. Also, no need to disable regen to free wheel in a slide - just don't back off so far.
@@JulianEdgar on cable throttle bodies, and DBW systems that doesn't use torque modeling, the accelerator pedal directly controls the amount of area that can flow through the throttle body, directly limiting the max airflow the engine can draw, controlling torque. However, the maximum airflow the engine can draw is dictated by the engine's RPM and volumetric efficiency curve, which increases as the RPM rises. So at idle, older performance ICEs with large throttle bodies have a tendency to feel "jumpy", as it doesn't take much throttle input to reach maximum airflow at a low RPM. However, at high RPMs where the engine is drawing much more air, the full throttle range can be used to control the amount of torque produced or even to control overrun.
Now, take the concept of free revving an engine. An engine idling in neutral is effectively producing zero torque. Quickly apply and hold light throttle in neutral. The engine would start producing torque, which would cause the RPM to increase. The airflow demand would increase, which would eventually slow the RPM rise until it settles where the engine can't produce more torque to overcome typical engine and accessory drag. The engine RPM is higher, but it's still technically producing zero torque.
Now, applying these concepts to a vehicle lightly accelerating, when it suddenly breaks traction. Upon breaking traction, the engine RPM would increase, demanding more airflow. Assuming that the transmission is locked in gear, there's no traction control intervention, and the driver isn't applying heavy throttle, the engine RPM would rise until it can't accelerate from airflow limitations. The wheel speed has increased, but the wheel torque has dropped. This makes it very easy for an experienced driver to modulate wheel spin, as the engine would naturally produce less torque as the engine RPM rises with part-throttle, and produces more torque as the engine RPM drops.
Compare that to a linearized torque model, where the accelerator pedal commands a specific torque value, independent of wheel speed or engine RPM (for ICE vehicles). When the vehicle breaks traction, the wheel speed would increase, but the wheel torque would be held constant. Combined with how the tire traction would reduce as wheel slip increases, this would cause the wheel speed to quickly accelerate with almost no end. It's very frustrating that most manufacturers are pushing towards this torque model, as this is ideal for street driving, especially since they can always rely on traction control intervention instead of driver intervention. But with performance driving, where many stability control systems do not allow excessive vehicle yaw, it becomes a hindrance. But with traction control disabled, the linear torque model really becomes an issue with controlling wheel spin.
@@JulianEdgar and as for regen, one scenario I can think of was one track drive POV cam with Sasha's Hybrid 350Z. There was an incident where the vehicle started fishtailing in the track from excessive regen torque. On a normal vehicle, one can simply apply the clutch, or shift into neutral to quickly disconnect the powertrain. Unfortunately, neither options were available, as the clutch and h-pattern transmission was replaced with a sequential and direct drive motor. While yes, it is possible to freewheel the drivetrain by holding the accelerator at the specific position, this is very difficult to perform in the heat of the moment, as the driver also had to keep the vehicle from spinning out. Fortunately, he did not crash, but it's a major concern I have with the transition to soft touch shift controls.
I have to agree throttle control is great, however I do believe that is the second best thing; the first is the center of gravity being usually being under the driver's feet, and spot on the middle of the car. that white MG ? It has that (I have one too. losts of software issues bu t dynamics are ok). Added bonus: not making much sound makes them pretty immune to handheld speed cameras. Depending on the EV, you can also select the throttle response curve, from completely linear to similar to a regular petrol car. There is also a one pedal mode that engage brakes once regen is maxed out and your foot is off the pedal.
Note: not an integrist. I have a highly modded euro S13.
I think off throttle/regenerative braking is one of the best features of an EV. I love ICE cars with relatively light rotating assemblies/flywheels/wheels etc, for the engine braking. Being able to slow down significantly to without using the brakes is something hard to get across to other enthusiasts.
A bit sketchy on older vehicles that don't activate brake lights under engine braking though
That's funny, because any experienced driving enthusiast would demand strong engine braking action. FWD engine braking would help point the front wheels into the corner and perform lift-off oversteer. RWD engine braking would lock the 2-way LSD and straighten out the rear end (if equipped).
Once again great video. And I totally agree with Julian on this one. All cars are nice. I don't understand those folks who are "against evs" or those "against hybrids ", or "against hatchbacks", or "against v8s", "against trucks", "against asian made", "against euro cars" , etc etc. All cars serve a purpose and I think a true enthusiast is cool with all kinds of power powertrain, body type, made etc. Also tuning and modifying a car for soft ride or fuel economy is as cool and interesting as doing it for looks or track use.
I'd happily have a performance EV , but at the moment I can't justify the price .
That white MG has 200hp, is RWD and weights 1.6 tons, with 50/50 weight distribution. It also costs less than any petrol car with similar power (heck where I live, it costs less than any petrol car with half the power. it costs 10k less than a model 3, for the luxury version). I know, because i have one :D it is cheap though. You get what you pay for. Chassis wise though, it just needs stiffer compression and rebound. For 7000€ more you get the AWD, 450hp version. cant beat that.
Never been anti ev, I just prefer lightweight and manual. Obviously manual won't be around much longer, and the current new car trend doesn't inspire confidence when it comes to weight either. Keeping an open mind though.
My MG4 X-Power weighs 1800kg (3960lb). I have had quite a few ICE cars that weigh that or more. Manual trans - I can take it or leave it; probably more the case of leave it these days. The PDK trans in the Porsche is quicker than any manual.
@@JulianEdgar My only car ownership experience is a 2015 manual corolla and a manual gr86. I've driven lots of other cars but nothing has gelled with me except that archetype (keeping in mind I haven't driven an EV yet).
Realistically I could see myself getting a cheap ev hatchback later down the line. I would much rather something like you described in the video over the new ICE vehicles I've driven.
I was reading about a test on the Nurburgring of the Tesla Plaid, from the telemetry it was visible that car was accelerating better than it was braking, because the motors can be controlled faster than the ABS hydraulics.
About regen while stepping off the "gas" pedal: I feel it can be a safety feature too.
I have never driven EV. I'm looking forward to give it a try.
As a driving instructor I should add:
1) Instant throttle response of EV are good only for experienced enthusiasts and very bad (dangerous) for novice drivers and bad drivers;
2) One pedal driving is very bad for beginners. They do not learn to use brakes properly. Do we need drivers who are not trained to brake in case of emergency? (in everyday driving they have very little time operating a brake pedal) Do we need drivers who are not trained to use brakes for weight transfer?
I have experience of driving and teaching clients in a few EV’s - Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, VW e-Golf. VW is far better than everything else and can be driven without regenerative braking. Tesla is terrible
While I agree with you that 1-pedal driving is very bad for learner drivers, I would say that the instant throttle response is actually a good thing. Back when I was a student driver, my school had 2 cars, one gas and one electric. Using the accelerator pedal in the electric car felt very intuitive for me and other students, because there was no lag in the pedal and you always got what you asked for from the vehicle.
By contrast, the accelerator pedal in the gas car had some delay in it, which made driving a bit scarier because there was a moment of uncertainty every time I pressed the pedal. And this uncertainty was even worse if the car decided to shift gears when the driver pressed the pedal.
I don't think the arguments against EVs were ever anything much more than excuses for those that don't like change, there's been "too slow", "too quiet" "no vibration" "no gears" "charging speeds" "limited range" a host of environmental fallacies, each of which have been answered. I can appreciate a view that driving enjoyment for engines is about trying to extract the best from an imperfect drivetrain, selecting / changing gears at just the right time not be caught in the wrong gear etc and if it's too easy it loses the enjoyment. The "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow" kind of thing. I think like handling, a drivetrain that communicates with the driver is more involving. I would be interested to hear you're thoughts on the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N and it's virtual gearbox, it sounds gimmicky yes, but if it's what people want and brings driving enjoyment why not?
I think a virtual gearbox in an EV is exactly like horse noises in a first car. No car would ever have had a gearbox if it weren't needed.
@@JulianEdgar I think we could make the same case if autonomous cars became a reality and steering wheels became obsolete. Sure then we can say they were not needed if all cars drove themselves. But that's not an argument to get rid of it if it brings driving enjoyment.
I understand some people hate on EVs and anything new, but it is objectively a much less engaging experience. Once all cars are EVs this is a serious threat to how sportscars differentiate themselves. Now you have all the different power delivery, sounds, weight distribution etc of different ICE layouts, what happens when a Porsche 911 has basically the same motor and batteries all located in the same position as a Tesla? Basically all car reviewers have praised the Ioniq 5N as the most fun EV and have mentioned the simulated gears and sound actually help with judging corner entry speeds and engagement. If engineers don't copy this approach I think the whole fun-car segment is doomed, when you can get a 2.5ton family suv that feels broadly the same as a compromised 'sportscar'.
It seems a very theoretical argument. Do you own an EV? Have you driven one? I don't find it any less engaging an experience - in fact I find it a very exciting experience indeed. I also can't see how being an EV lessens car differentiation any more than any other cars with similar engines - eg those with six cylinder turbos. If your enjoyment of a car is predicated on how cars once had to be made, rather than how they can be made now (eg presence or absence of a gearbox), then we're on different wavelengths entirely. (And incidentally it's just the same argument that was once used against EFI versus carbies - EFI just took away all the enjoyment. And against AWD. And against turbos. And against....)
@@JulianEdgar yes i have driven a Model3. Im not saying EVs aren’t fun, they’re still a bit of a novelty now. My argument is once everything is EV premium/sporty brands will face a huge differentiation problem. They all feel broadly the same in everyday driving. How can you differentiate a Mustang from an M3 from an AMG? Now you can even when just commuting in traffic. When these things are EVs they’ll all be the same, unless they find a way to fake a unique experience.
It’s certainly true this has already happened in most mainstream ordinary cars as everything is a turbo inline 4 automatic nowadays. Going back to the 70s brands in that segment were offering more of a variety of layouts, now it’s all the same. Difference now is you can’t sell sportscar experience if 95% of the time your ev Mustang feels exactly the same as a 30k ev hatchback.
We'll agree to disagree then. I find every new car I drive different - often hugely so. Steering response, ergonomics, throttle mapping, grip, balance, ride quality... they're all different. To me it's like saying that all diesel engine cars drive the same... obviously false! I can't see any faking is necessary in EVs - except to persuade motoring writers who invariably scorn anything new.
What kind of click bait is this? You just can’t keep toting out clearly reasoned and thought out views. It’s just not how this stuff works! Seriously - another great video. Thank you. 👍
Click bait? I expected the video to rate poorly and it certainly is - very few views. But it's something I thought needed to be said. It's one of the frustrating things about car enthusiasts and modification - so many people remain 10-20 years behind where they could be in their understandings and applications.
@@JulianEdgar It's an awesome video. I have a Lotus and a tesla MY. I'd never thought about it like that. The tesla has brutal throttle response. It also has very good DSC and I haven't played with it. But it's the family car. :o
@@JulianEdgar and I was remarking how it's not click bait. So refreshing! I hope it gets watched as much as it should be.
I get what you are saying , but as an enthusiast, I would rather have something lightweight with excellent handling and steering feel and mild power that you have to work to keep it in the rev range so that you can drive enthusiastically on normal roads without doing go to jail speeds .
where you could found it in the last 20 years?
@@vercingetorige400 mx5
I've driven electric vehicles, I was a hyundai tech. I knew what you were going to say before you said it as I've been there, but the minus with their throttle control is the regen braking or coasting. it's hard to coast without extra manipulations, and the regen is set by (usually) a steering wheel pedal.
Not sure what you mean? Nearly all EVs have adjustable regen, so if you like coasting, set it like that. Anyway, even with high regen, if you want to coast, you just don't back off so far.
@@JulianEdgar you can't go from one to the other without extra manipulations, that's my point. The backing off slightly to coast is not as smooth with every EV (or none I drove or currently drive)
I don't get it. If you want to coast, set the regen to coast. You can still regen by putting your foot gently on the brake, just as you brake with an ICE car. If you want regen, set the regen to give it. I can't see how this is all a disadvantage over an ICE car. In one mode, you use two pedals (just like an ICE car - so no disadvantage there). In the other mode, you use one pedal (so no disadvantage there). What is the issue? - I don't understand.
@@JulianEdgar it would mean constant setting,, corners are often less than 100m apart, and are all different.
You still haven't explained why this is a deficiency of EVs over ICE engines.
The instantaneous-ness of EV torque is one of my favorite aspects. Though some automakers do so much smoothing that they lose a decent amount of responsiveness, Mustang Mach-E comes to mind.
I can initiate a drift, cancel, and initiate that drift again all within a single turn with the accelerator in my IONIQ 5, it would be challenging to do that in an ICE.
I had a supercharged 3.0T Audi A6 Quattro before and while that was a wonderful & responsive drivetrain you really had to plan-ahead (downshifting) if you wanted healthy torque in a corner. I understand that a lot of folks like that aspect, but I always found it to be a hassle. As you mentioned driving spiritedly with one-pedal-driving enabled can also be quite fun. I'd love to try an IONIQ 5N with it's strong regen but admittedly I'm probably not a good enough driver to handle that potential liftoff-oversteer on public roads lol.
the problem I have with the ev's ive driven is that they just feel kind of dead. Objectivley they handle better and have more power than anything I could ever afford, but I like cars are a bit ratty and inefficient. Maybe theres something wrong with me but I like a car thats janky, thats why I only drive garbage. I feel the same way about newer cars in general, EV's just take it to another level
That doesn't seem to relate to the topic of the video - throttle control...
@@JulianEdgar It does, at least in my mind, as I dont like how precise the throttle control is on electric vehicles. I just wanted to elaborate a bit on it and my reasoning. Guess I just didnt word it well
@@JulianEdgar I think what he might be getting at is this: Certain turbo gasoline engines can feel exponential in their power output, which makes them easier on the driver compared to an electric car's throttle which require more fine muscle control compared to the turbo gasoline one. For certain turbo gasoline cars it can feel like we are either on power or not on power with little play which can make the driver feel safer I suppose. I know that modern EVs and Automatic gasoline engines alike have ECO modes that can imitate that behavior for easier driving around the city.
Though I think most enthusiasts enjoy the fine motor control required to drive cars with quicker torque output. Maybe he is just an economy focused driver.