I don't understand why people keep saying that Elgin saved the marbles from destruction as if his motive was honorable. He cherry-picked the bits and pieces he liked for his own use, and when he found he couldn't afford to transport all of those he had pillaged, he simply dumped the excess off in Italy. If he truly respected the marbles, he wouldn't have hacked off heads and torsos and left the Parthenon in such a deplorable state. His motive was personal gain, not preservation.
What a load of rubbish. If he HADN’T done that they’d be dust now. The Marbles were not protected by the Greeks themselves, they should be grateful they still exist unlike all the other ones that were destroyed by the Ottoman invaders
Stephen Fry has my absolute respect! What a perfect speech that was! The Parthenon marbles will sooner or later return to their birthplace, to Athens, their place of origin.
Fun fact: I know about these marbles because of an Alex Rider novel with a plot where a dying Greek billionaire hires a terrorist organization to blackmail the British into sending the Elgin Marbles back to Greece
@@TheRealBarbDwyer They weren’t stolen they were bought legally to save them from destruction by the Ottomans. This myth needs to stop- the Greeks should be fecking grateful they still exist and have been preserved so well. Maybe they could buy them back - I wonder what Elgin paid for them and what that would be in todays money? 🤔
The British pillaged every nation their empire they could oppress with arms. They give white people a bad name. They need a debate to even see the wrong they have done.
I am British and patriotic, but I firmly believe that the Parthenon Marbles should be returned to their original home on the Acropolis. Wouldn’t they look better, restored to their former glory?
I agree but it’s the lack of gratitude and the historical illiteracy that pisses me off. The Ottomans would have destroyed the marbles, Elgin recognised their importance and struck a deal to let him take them to Britain. They would not exist today if Elgin hadn’t done what he did. The lack of gratitude from Greeks makes me not want to give them back.
@@mogznwaz I urge you to make a parallel comparison to you , as a Brit would feel if we Greeks had a piece of Stonehenge and wouldn’t give it back. These sculptures are part of our soul. Our heritage. It’s who we are. It’s our identity. And you must understand that the temple still stands, even after Lord Elgin left .
@@msanna9365 London Bridge, a part of our heritage, was sold to an American and is now in Arizona. That move is now part of our history and you won’t hear any Brit whining about it.
@@msanna9365 Elgin saved the marbles from almost certain destruction. I think Elgin should have left them there and let them be destroyed so that you would now have nothing to whine about . The Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues of Barniyan. If that destruction had been prevented by moving the statues to Germany would you have preferred they stay in Germany or that they had never been moved? . . .
As a Turkish person, maybe I should not open my mouth on this subject, but I find this appalling. Another Ottoman A-holery, basically. It is clear who the artifacts are belong to. They should be returned. If the British cares so much about them, they can help the Greek government to care for them. Although my direct ancestors were not related to Ottoman family, I personally apologize from this horrible situation, and if I was in Turkish Government, I would have tried to pressure the British for their return. Again, I am so sorry. This is terrible. I hope it will be return to their rightful place one day.
+Emine Dilek You are one of the smart progressive Turks. But you have to know, Greece lost its glory and progres, thanks to the Turkish occupation for 400 years. I'm sorry if this offends you but the Greeks are now suffering thanks to your then Barbarick Country.
+Emine Dilek I am greek, and I really find your opinion touching :) And the how turkish managed those ages doesnt mean that he should be told that ... There will always be some hard feelings between turkish and greeks, but there are always smart and not so smart people in both sides.
No, greeks are now suffering because every fucking president is a selfish basdard! :P The war with Turkey was a problem that kept Greeks out of the picture and damaged its progress but it's not the reason why Greece is suffering today.
Greek here. Lots of audacity from the "against" side, but the one at 36:50 ish from the snake oil selling sounding gentleman takes the cake. "Every culture thinks their own cultural artefacts are of supreme importance". The audacity! I'm speechless. If you don't think they are important, *return them to those who think they are!*
The marbles were NOT STOLEN. Elgin recognised their importance and struck a deal to rescue them from destruction by the Ottomans - at great personal cost. The historical illiteracy is staggering. Even Stephen Fry is coming from a place of pure virtue signalling emotion, shame on him as he is an educated man and should know better.
Elgin didn't respect such a unique monument. Taking pieces out of the Parthenon was an act of adventurism not an act of respect towards an ancient civilization and definitely not an effort to preserve, keep safe and use the marbles as the cornerstone of international interchange of ideas....Elgin's son , James Bruce, 8th Earl of Elgin and 12th Earl of Kincardine was the one who ordered the destruction and looting of the Summer Palace in China during the opium war. It's a historical fact that this family indeed respected human civilization, I guess destruction of ancient monuments runs in the Elgin family.
@@harrier331 With respect, he did leave some behind. They were left in the rain and sun for 200 years and are in terrible condition. There is NO debate that he, intentionally or not, saved them by taking them. That is a fact. That said, you are absolutely correct: it's entirely irrelevant. Whether they were saved by taking them or whether they would have been neglected otherwise- neither of these is an argument for or against their return.
@@harrier331 The Greeks Would Have Never Been and Have Never Been in a Position to Preserve the Elgin marbles! Safe inside of a world - Class Museum, more people have viewed them in England than if they were left in place. Reproductions instead should be Installed made of a weather resistant material. But if returned, they Could be Vandalized, Destroyed by the Salty Winds.
@@tomvalveede6808 This isnt even an argument. By the same logic i can steal your house and your property if you don't take care of it. What you are doing is basically dropping out speculations only and nothing else . No one knows what would happen and no one will ever know, since you are plain thieves and will never return them.
I was told the Turks were going to destroy the marbles to break Greek culture. Suddenly the Ottomen had great respect for Greek culture... revisionist history just never stops revising
@@tomvalveede6808 It is true that common Greeks of that time didn’t care about ancient monuments. Elgin might have saved them then. The British museum, however, damaged the marbles in 1930’s when they tried to bleach them to make them whiter, having forgotten that this specific type of marble is tawny. Also, reports have been made (and myself I also witnessed that when I visited the museum in 2010) that the ceiling of the room where the marbles are exhibited is leaking after heavy rain. Since 2009 Greece has built an amazing world-class museum equipped with the best technology where the marbles can be preserved and presented there at their natural environment. Greece is also way advanced in antiquity preservation. You can’t compare Greece nowadays with that of 50/100 years ago. The preservation argument has thus lost its meaning.
No. The Greeks should be grateful to Elgin and the British for rescuing the marbles from the Ottomans before they were destroyed. In the BM they have been seen and appreciated by millions of people who now understand that the British inherited the mantle of western civilisation from Ancient Greece, understood its importance and took action at a time when the Greeks themselves could not
@mogznwaz unfortunately Britain lost the mantle of western civilization shortly after the second world war, as the USA took over. But we don't send the marbles, along with all of the other treasures, over to the US just because they have a larger economy than Britain. It's a strawman argument that tries to justify the theft on grounds of benevolent altruism and preservation, when it was in fact the warped legal pillaging of an occupied country.
Stephen Fry’s argument was vivid and human while Armesto’s one arrogant was so full of the glory of the British Museum that I honestly feel sorry for the guy 🙁
Fry’s argument was full of emotional virtue signalling. The fact is if Elgin had not struck a deal with the Ottomans the marbles would no longer exist for you to whine about them.
Stephen Fry put tears in my eyes. Thank you for your support sir. Come on England, be classy, be proud and courageous, give them back to us , let them come back to where they belong.
The marbles only exist because Elgin legally acquired them from the Ottomans before they DESTROYED THEM. If the Greeks expressed more gratitude for that fact I’d be more disposed to sending them back .
Anyone who doubts the safety of the Parthenon marbles is wellcome to visit the Acropolis museum and see by him/her-self how this ancient monuments are being taken care of and how empty the sacred temple of Athena is without them!
Pan Dran, perhaps a little gratitude to the people who saved them from destruction is in order? What do you want to do, sell them to pay for your economic crisis?
I'm not even Greek or British. I'm from the Philippines, a country who suffered 3 occupations (Spanish, Japanese, and American) and I'm so moved by the decency, the gentleness, and the ethics of Stephen Fry. It's not merely an appeal to emotion, as people may point out, but an appeal to ethics and human conscience which, when considered, could touch the hearts of many. Stephen Fry is an amazing soul.
@@mogznwaz The British pillaged every nation their empire they could oppress with arms. They give white people a bad name. They need a debate to even see the wrong they have done.
Yes, regrettably one of the last vestiges of decency in the world it seems. The other 99.99999% seem to only be concerned with how rich and/or influential they can get. It's a shame to see a Professor get up on stage and blather on about the intellectual superiority of his side. Ignoring the origin of the subject and instead praising the British have taken care of what they basically stole. WELL THEY BETTER BE! But let's do what the Professor suggest: We make the British museum international territory and put it under the direction of an internationally elected group. Entry to the museum will be free and travel to and from paid by the British government. Britain's responsibility will be to perpetually fund the museum, travel and accomodations. It's for the people of the world of course or do the poor not count? If this is the argument "It's for the good of the world at the cost of the British." then let's actually make that so! O and pulling another Brexit isn't an option, you want this? Then commit or shut up!
The kid at the end made the best argument for it out of them all. Its a like art in a rich persons house, anyone coming over couldn't care less if its an original... they just look and think that's nice. In a natural history museum I can still appreciate the replica dinosaur sculptures.
@@edwardd652 Modern Greeks arrived with spaceship,they speak a language that a crazy man would say it is ancient Greek evolved in 2500 but no this is crazy it is Martian,and Greeks look like Turkish so they are Turks,but the crazy man would again note that the Turkish don't look like the original Turks in central Asia where they came from like Uzbekistan,so your logic would be olive oil and Mediterranean breeze changed their DNA in a few centuries.
Several years ago I was strolling through a narrow street in the fascination mountain village of Karpathos and as I passed a local lady she stared at me and said 'When will you return our marbles?' I felt ashamed.
I am Greek myself, and also an internationalist. Therefore, I am in favour of institutions like the British Museum exhibiting various national treasures of the world to international audiences. However, I still fail to see why it is so vital for them to legally "own" the marbles of the parthenon. I don't believe they should be permanently displayed in the Acropolis museum, they can certainly be loaned to any major museum, but the opposite strikes me as strange to say the least.
Yes, this was on my mind too. What a strange position to defend with genuine conviction, that Greece should be happy to have the marbles loaned to them by the British Museum
I never really listened to arguements about the return of the Parthenon Marbles, I always thought they should be returned, but listening to the British Museum's perspective just showed an arrogance and a sense of privilege and colonialism thinking that belongs in the past
Wrong. Elgin rescued the marbles from destruction by the Ottomans. Perhaps he should have just let them be destroyed. I note that the anger is at Britain for rescuing and preserving the marbles for the world to see, rather than at the Turks for selling them and destroying so much else when they were in Greece. Why is that?!
@@mogznwaz Well as we saw in the video, even a Turkish woman claimed the marbles should be returned. Notably, many Greeks appreciate the support of people like Mr Fry and Mr. George, Mr Fry making a case that the British museum could open an extraordinary exhibit, classy as he described it, that would show how the marbles were preserved and then returned to where they belonged. I have not seen a single comment that contest this idea of the exhibit, how it would be an outrageous notion, so as to your claim that people would be angered at Britain, well.. that's just nonsense.
The head of a statue is in London and the rest of the statue in Athens. Imagine "Mona Lisa" being half in Paris and half in Rome. All the pieces of the statues must be reunited and since Parthenon is in Athens and these marbles are part of the Greek history, the British have to do what's morally right and return them.
***** Elgin only wanted the marbles to decorate his estate. He sold them to the BM to pay his debts. Instead of selling his family's heritage he sold the Greek's.
Yeah there exists one slight problem though. There exists no record that says Elgin took them lawfully. He claims he had permission from the sultan, but the firman he claimed doesn't exist, nor Britain has some sort of proof of ownership or any sort of transaction by Elgin. Furthermore, even British eye witnesses that were with him, had written back then that he had been given permission to go up the hill in order to paint and get casts of them to recreate them. They freaked out when he started hacking them and were calling him a vandal and the troops he ordered to hack them away disagreed with this action. Moreover, Elgin didn't excavate and find them, but removed them from the Parthenon itself, damaging the monument irreparably. Finally, the debate is not about whether Britain or Greece should own them, but whether they should be where they were made. If you look at what Greece says, they don't want the ownership of the marbles. They just want them to be displayed there, with the BM retaining the ownership of the marbles. What they propose is a long-term loan and a coalition between the museums and there is a proposal for other antiquities to be lent from Greece to the BM so that they are displayed there.
I am so touched to see people, British people like the young man in the audience who spoke in the end, that care and want the restoration of marbles.. It's truly amazing and heartwarming, thank you so much! Love from a Greek who lives in Bonny Scotland!
Actually that young man comment made me emotional, Yes! I would rather see all the pieces together, and it be replaced with cast copies, and see greeks restore their culture, than keeping them just because of legalities
I have no issue with putting them back but I do take issue with this narrative that they were stolen. They weren’t. They were bought legally by Elgin in order to save them from destruction by the Ottomans. The Greeks should be damn well grateful that the British understood their importance and preserved them so beautifully for all to see.
To the lady that said the Ottomans ruled with a light hand unlike the nazis, I would recommend she studies some history! Her statement is as ignorant and insulting as the claims of a holocaust denier!
They even no worse than any other empures such as Russian and Austro-Hungarian. The west has demonized the Ottoman Empire too much. Does not matter what Greek nationalists say.
So true. By holding the marbles back and attempting to make excuses for why they "borrowed" the marbles and the "problems" they face if they return them they are only worsening the situation they are in and causing more tension between themselves and Greece. #BringThemBack!
The Jedi Train Spotter Weeeell... that's debatable. Greece is one of the countries that didn't seek compensation for WWII deaths and destruction from.... Germany, so that the country could start from scratch. Otherwise Germany would not exist today, because it should have paid tons of money in many countries after WWII. So, you could say that Greece owes absolutely nothing to Germany, because Germany was always on the other side every time Greece took part in a war and despite that Greece agreed to let Germany stand back on its feet after WWII.
@@roundhousetrainspotting Talking about Greek debt to Germany, one could also consider the number of executions and the amount of destroyed industry, buildings, ports, bridges, roads, forests, etc etc inflicted by Nazi Germany to Greece, contrasted to the petty amount of reparations Germany paid Greece for this destruction. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations
Evil Scotsman he is a popular leftist gay who everyone jumps to agree with whenever he opens his mouth. Do not confuse that with making a truly valid argument.
@@4gazofonias Countries aren't people, my poor deluded man. England is no more beholden to return the marbles to Greece than Greece is beholden to give Macedonia reparations - that is to say, not at all.
@@xandercorp6175 Macedonia? You call Vardarska Banovina, as it was known 80 years ago to the Bulgarians and Albanians that populate it, "Macedonia"? By what right? Since when are the made up, propagandist stories of the Yugoslavian and Soviet communists who created the fake Macedonian nation to cut off the influence of the Bulgarian state to the ethnic Bulgarians living in FYROM, something that we ought to accept as the truth? Modern historians teaching in American and English universities like Yale and Oxford teach that ancient Macedonians were a Hellenic (Greek) people, and therefore have nothing to do with modern "Macedonians" or ethnic brainwashed Bulgarians of FYROM. So yes, the marbles belong to Greece because they were stolen, and no Greece does not owe reparations to the Bulgarian people of FYROM because nothing was stolen from them, dear uneducated and ignorant fellow.
@@Proud2bGreek1 I refer to _Macedonia_ as Macedonia, as you do - though you would rather hide it behind an acronym. By what right do I refer to a country by its chosen name? I am not sure what right a free person needs to refer to a country by the name it uses, so you will have to educate me there. But you present no arguments, merely make empty points about what a country was called 80 years ago, or whether or not the Hellenics are related to the modern Balkans (you and I both know the answer to that). But please, if it makes you feel superior to do so, feel free to assume that I don't know what I'm talking about and to "support" your assertions with red herrings. Its banal, but you seem to need the diversion and I would never deny an idiot his simple pleasures.
Why are they called Elgin"s marbles ? Did he make them ? They were part of the acropolis for over 2000 years.He came along took them and now they are refered as Elgin's marbles? Ridicule...A side note: In the Greek war of independence, the Turkish garrisons on the acropolis, ran out of cannon balls & started firing pieces of marble instead. When the Greeks found out they made a deal with the Turkish garrisons that they would supply canon balls in the morning for the Turks to be able to fire them !!! This is the importance the Greeks place on the acropolis, and still do today....
No,not pieces of marble. They took apart the columns, and they stole the led reinforcement that were between the " spondylee" ,to make balls for canons. They broke many columns....the Greek captens offered to give Tham balls, as not to destroy the temple........then, here comes count Morosini he bombarded Parthenon the black powder stocks blu up to the sky,and it's a real miracle that most of the monument is still standing.
Lord Elgin was looking for ornaments to decorate his garden as was fashionable at the time, so he obtained authority to remove some, in doing so he became bankrupt and sold them to the British museum. The British should do the decent thing and send them back to Greece.
Ive been to both museums, i spent 10-15 looking at the marbles in Britain and don’t remember a single thing the plaques said. I spent a full day at the acropolis/museum and learned every year of their history. To say they have better context in london as opposed to looking up at Parthenon behind them is pathetic.
Just because you were too obtuse to get anything out of your viewing is hardly an argument and says a lot more about and your virtue signaling than the merits of the case.
@@marctempler3250 it’s a personal anecdote that is very relevant to the topic. I was 13 when I visited and 14 when I visited Athens. So I was very ignorant. Much like other kids that visit these places. But that’s exactly the point. Where is the best place for ignorant people to go to view the marbles and learn.
@@marctempler3250 That's a very weak argument. I too saw the Parthenon sculptures as a young child on a school trip, and as a Londoner, one who loves especially the Horse of Selene, I think they need to be returned to their rightful home in Greece. Nothing about 'Virtue signalling', but by doing what is right. Greece was stripped of them illegally, and they need returning.
@@Wowowowowowowowowowowowow I was about 10 when I first saw the Marbles, on a school trip. Loved the Horse of Selene, bought a postcard of that magnificent wild equine head, straining against it's bridle, but agree 100% that they need to go Home, to Athens.
Interesting discussion. As a Greek who believes that the Parthenon Marbles should be in Parthenon I would like to thank the turkish woman from the audience who clarified that Greece was under occupation when the marbles were taken.
They weren’t taken, they were sold to Britain legally. If the ottomans had not agreed to this they would no longer exist for the Greeks to whine about it. Show some gratitude ffs that Elgin understood the importance of the marbles and took steps to preserve them before it was too late.
@@mogznwaz By your logic to quote Stephen Fry, when the Netherlands were under Nazi occupation then it would have been legitimate for an English ambassador to go and ''purchase'' a painting of Rembrandt from the Nazi authority in Amsterdam. We both know it doesn't stand. As for your argument that Elgin took them to save them, it is also false. The true reason he removed the sculptures was for personal profit. They were brutally sawn off and transported to the UK. Also bear in mind that during their initial preservation process in the British Museum, they were brushed with metal wire resulting in irreversible damage on their surface. The main reason the British Museum is refusing to give them back is because they are a major attraction. We can argue all day with superficial statements, but the fact of the matter is that the British Museum is holding artefacts that are simply not theirs and not of their cultural heritage. The descent thing to do is to return them to their rightful owners.
@@johnioannou7578The Ottoman Empire had stood for over 400 years, to compare them to the Nazis especially consuming out of blood Britain shed liberate Greece in world war II I think is more than little insulting.
Stephen Fry. Now THERE is a national treasure! Legally, the Parthenon marbles belong to the British Museum. But, the law is an ass! Morally, they belong to Greece. Send them home!
@@herodotus6235 It was the Ottoman Empire which was in control of Greece and which didn't care for the historical treasures of Greece. Elgin paid the Turks to take the treasures. It's like paying someone who has broken into a house for its contents! If you think that's 'moral' there's no hope for you!
@@marius7098 That's true. Most things are 'safer' when looked after by us (The British), rather than Johnny Foreigner. We're just more... British! However, The Elgin Marbles 'fell off the back of a lorry'; we can't pretend otherwise - although, we've endeavoured to do so for the last 200 years and rather successfully. Get them 3-D printed; display the copies and send the originals back where they belong. Put a condition on the return. ie if you're holding a British passport, entrance to view the originals, once they're back where they belong, is free. National museums are free in the UK, after all, whereas Johnny Foreigner charges people to be culturally enriched. Philistines!
@@harrier331 They weren't 'stolen'. I don't think Elgin was a bad guy. Umpteen people had mapped the site of the Acropolis and each new survey found that antiquities were disappearing, goodness knows where. I think he did the right thing - protecting the antiquities of Greece. At least, that was his excuse, at the time, when everyone was appalled by their acquisition. Greece is capable of protecting them, now. To keep them is morally indefensible.
Stephen Fry is amazing. A simple man with a brilliant mind, a true philhellen, a talented actor and speecher... Make him Prime Minister of England. Or Greece for thst matter (for although he's British, he's a 1000+ times better than any Greek politician out there).
The only thing is Silver Doe, we really want someone who looks after British interests as Prime minister, not some popular leftist who will help to destroy our identity.
The Zionist Brits (Rothschilds, Soros) are the architects of the destruction of Greece and they have planted every corrupt Greek Government for the past one hundred years.
26:00 his reasoning why the marbles shouldn't return is that HE personally didn't like the architecture of the Akropolis museum. Nobody asked you, Patrice!
@BRIAN WONG That's actually closer to the correct transliteration of the word. The Greek word Ἀκρόπολις is usually rendered in the Latin script as 'Acropolis', but a more accurate transliteration would be 'Akrópolis'.
@BRIAN WONG They are actually both equally correct as forms so your argument that this is is not the propert way to be spelled is foiled. It can be spelled both ways as it happens to be possible with many latin languages, english included.
This was a fantastic debate, absolutely loved the passionate speech given by Mr. Fry. Made me feel so proud to be of Greek heritage. The Parthenon really is the centrepiece of Athens and when you stand in Athens and look up at it, it takes you back thousands of years. I think the integrity of the building and the culture it represents demands the respect of everybody enjoying the wonders of Western Civilisation today!
It raises the wider question of whether all items held in museums should be returned to their place of origin. Should the Ishtar Gate be returned from Berlin to Iraq, should the Codex Gigas be returned from Stockholm to Prague.... the list is endless and both impractical and impossible. That is why the British Museum is under no moral obligation because huge amounts of the content of the rest of the worlds museums would have to be repatriated.
@@TS-gh3xv They weren’t stolen. Elgin bought them legally from the ottomans who at that time were in charge in Greece in order to preserve them from inevitable destruction. You should be GRATEFUL to him
@@nicoangel690 What may have been true at the dawn of time may no longer be. Today, wars of aggression and expansion are illegal under international law. As you surely know, the occupations of Gaza and the West Bank have also been declared violations of international law.
Greeks did care about the marbles. When our forfathers sarrounded the Turcks at the acropolis they started to break the marbels to get lead in order to make bullets. The Greeks offer the Turcks buletts to stop them from destroying the marbles. So they cared, they cared about them more than they lives!
Regardless of the fact that I am Greek I have always admired Stephen Fry! He is an amazing human being and I love his way of thinking, his wit, his intelligence, his logic.....Thank you Mr. Fry!
He's a little more Greek than many Greeks, and far more English than your average Englishman. A gem of a man, our national treasure, defending your national treasure :D
@@pseudonayme7717 Elgin defended Greece’s national heritage by saving it from destruction by the Ottomans - at considerable personal difficulty and cost . Greece is so effing ungrateful it makes me want to puke
I am so pleased to have come across this video and to hear a discussion like this taking place in London. Of course it is time to send them back, they should have never been removed in the first place.... what a savage deed that was. On moral and artistic grounds and in the name of 'Cultural Heritage' The British Museum must do the right thing... the marbles must be reunited with the Parthenon. I believe this is the popular outcry world wide.
The marbles were rescued from destruction by the Ottomans. The Ottomans sold the marbles to Elgin legally and thank goodness they didn’t care much about them and just took the money - but Elgin recognised their importance and wanted to save them. The lack of gratitude for this is staggering and extremely bad mannered
To the gentleman who compared the new Acropolis museum to Stansted airport : of course the British Museum might be more pleasing to the eye. After all it was built in the GREEK Revival style with features from classical GREEK architecture.
Ancient Greece is the progenitor of Western civilisation and Britain was the inheritor. That historical understanding is what made Elgin recognise the importance of the marbles and he struck a deal with the ottomans to remove them before they were destroyed. Perhaps he should have just let them be destroyed. You are so ungrateful, historically ignorant and bad mannered towards the people who saved your historical artefacts from destruction it’s disturbing
I would also like to express my respect for Mr Andrew George! People like Mr Adrew George and Mr Stephen Fry honor their country and the society in general.
Bring the marbles back to where they belong. The new Acropolis museum is their Home, there is special place waiting for them. Please do the right thing, it's our Heritage that was taken from us.
@@sc-iu8jq You? Barbarians.... Barbarian is a Greek ancient word that means the language that sounds to our ears like bar.. bar.. bar.. bar..🗣 ( ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ ) 😵 😵😵😵
No your heritage was treated like crap for centuries then rescued by the British who spent money time and effort saving what they could before the Ottomans destroyed everything. A bit more gratitude should be shown frankly.
Arguments like this make it less likely for anything to be ‘given back’. You’re advocating for the slippery slope argument which Stephen Fry says doesn’t exist,
I think the "slippery slope" they're all so afraid of should be a very serious consideration. The Rosetta stone does in fact belong in Egypt, and all the other items that were procured during colonialism belong to their regions of origin. If the artifacts were treated morally, the British Museum would definitely lose a huge portion of the works inside (and other museums around the world.) Eventually though, these actions would inspire better relationships and dialogues between cultures, and once moral ownership was reestablished, the topics of loaning and touring could be addressed. I'm absolutely in favour of a cosmopolitan, encyclopedic museum concept... and I think that there are a huge amount of artworks and artifacts around the world that can lend to this concept. These museums need to be less clingy to what's in their collections right now. There's a very shortsighted mentality that just seems to scream "mine mine mine" like they're so desperate not to lose these things. In order to support the cosmopolitan museum concept, there MUST be a positive relationship established between all the cultures that the works originate from. Once the relationship is there, then the proper and morally legal transactions of selling or loaning the works can take place. Trying to keep such works that are in such a shady situation is just going to make you look bad. I agree with Stephen Fry, that the act of returning the marbles (and other works) would make the British Museum look very good. And, like seriously... people these days can make such good replicas, there could still be a "Parthenon Marbles" display for people to view, and then just a disclaimer that the originals are back in Athens. Hell, most of the pieces you see in the museums aren't even the real thing anyways! The real works are usually tucked in the back so they won't get damaged.... So what's the point of keeping the originals? It's just a stupid ego issue that doesn't serve anyone.
Send them back: The Parthenon Marbles should be returned to Athens 0859am 5.12.23 indeed. this situation is enough to bring various academics to the brink of nervous exhaustion and/or a mental breakdown... i bet a few high-minded chaps have died worrying about them going back...
26:12 Is this man really claiming, that the Acropolis meseum, that has been globaly awarded for its design and its treatment of our precious works of art that once plated the Parthenon and the rest of the Acropolis, that has been ranked in the top 10 museums in the world consistantly since 2012, isn't fit enough to handle OUR marbles, cause he didn't like the architecture?
Not your marbles. Sold legally to Elgin by the Ottomans who ruled Greece at the time then rescued and preserved in Britain to prevent them being destroyed forever and giving you nothing to whine about. You’re welcome.
Elgin did an act of Vandalism by looting Parthenon , so this action cannot be justified by any argument of denying the cosmopolitan image of the British museum or denying the spread of historic knowledge . Elgin actually Destroyed one Caryatid in order to remove and stole the Caryatid that is in British museum nowdays . Elgin put in its place a huge stone in order the monument not fall down . Such acts of Vandalism and Barbarism cannot be justified by anything .
What excavation? The marbles were taken from the building. It was not an excavation. Elgin's workers climbed on the top of the Parthenon and hammered them off. One sculpture even felt down from the hight and smashed into tiny marble pieces.
How do you know, were you there? And besides, time was of the essence - the Ottomans were a military force intent on destroying any ‘idolatrous’ artefacts. If Elgin had not moved fast none of the marbles would have survived at all. Greece should be GRATEFUL that Elgin preserved an artefact when the Greeks were in no position to.
@@mogznwaz I know it because Elgin documented the entire operation. The ottomans conquered Athens in 1458. They had plenty time to destroy those "idols" before Elgin was even born. And they did not destroy what Elgin left behind either such as the remaining metopes of the Parthenon or the caryatides of the nearby temple. We are not grateful. Thanks.
@@Uppernorwood976 The museums are free but travelling and staying in the country isn't. Even if the museum is free, those who travel to see artifacts and the like will stay in England and spend money. Tourism equals money
@@giorgosx5838Its not just tourism, museums get huge wealthy donors, hell the British museum has a please donate box almost like every 10 meters for the visitors.
We must note the fact that at the Olympics games opening ceremony instead of Great William Shakespeare, King Arthour and things about the history of England, England chose to show in front of millions of people Mr Bean, JAmes bond the queen the prince/princes, some rave electronics stupid parties in the club and cyber chatting sex stuff and facebook! So who wants to speak about history and how appreciate it?
Everyone knows about Shakespeare already. Because the British have the most successful and globally influential culture in history. If there are any criticisms it’s that Britain has been colonised by a left wing mindset that celebrates ‘diversity’ and ‘modernity’ because apparently that’s always better. Not in my eyes of course. But in the eyes of the kinds of virtue signallers who demand things like the return of the legally acquired marbles
As far as I know when Elgin (he was nor is not my Lord) was given the marbles he pried them off their place and many of them fell from the the friezes to the ground many meters below and were damaged, and even more so than the ones left there… Many were lost and some abandoned to their fate in Italy.. How can anybody argue "responsibility" ? Pillage rather… Then there is the question of price. How much did he bribe the Turk who was in charge of Athens. The argument that this was a legitimate purchase is as well utterly ridiculous. If the Greek revolution and liberation from the Turks was recognized and applauded by the whole world it was not a legitimate occupation therefore there can be no legitimate sale..During the Nazi occupation of France there was a French Vichi government. Had they sold part of the Tuilleries would that be legitimate? A piece of art was broken in pieces not by an accident, not by a war but by a pillaging act by Elgin. He was not stupid. He knew perfectly well that the Turks were not the legal owners nor did they care for the Parthenon… He did not go there to save the marbles else he would have taken good care of them. He was an opportunist as was Colonialism minded England at the time. The professor and the historian should go back to school and learn Ethics and Logic and History. They lack dramatically in that respect.
You weren’t there so you are speaking from a position of ignorance based on tittle tattle. The fact is that Elgin struck a deal with the Ottomans which allowed him to rescue as much of the marbles as he could before they were destroyed. The Ottomans were known to destroy anything they considered idolatrous- just like the Taliban who destroyed the Buddha statues in Afghanistan
The Ottomans were the ones in power therefore were in the position to allow or deny the sale. The fact is if Elgin had not removed as much as he could they would have been destroyed. The Ottomans conquered Greece, modern definitions of legal or illegal ‘occupation’ did not apply - and even if they did Elgin could not strike a deal with the Greeks who were in no position to deny or grant such a request. The historical revisionism and arguing from emotion are signs of low IQ and brainwashing by leftist universities.
Today in Amphipolis a Royal Macedon tomb is being excavated. On top of this tomb there was a statue of a Lion, which at some point in time it was moved to another place, near the tomb. During the 2st Balkan Wars, Greek soldiers caught a group of British soldiers *who were trying* to load the staute of the Lion on a British ship, with destination a Museum in Great Britain. Most possibly the British Museum. *This is how historically the British Empire treated CULTURALLY* those who were in their darkest moments. This policy and way of thinking can't be *justified nor continue* in the 21st century...
Brits have always made up their own rules of theft and this is why they lost their country to the Arabs, Afghanis, Africans, Pakistanis, the same ones they once occupied and now they are not occupying they just took over of what is left of England.
The British have excavated more sites and translated more documents and inscriptions than anybody - you wouldn't know who anyone was before George Washington without them.
They should have protected them better. Neglected for centuries, let the Ottomans destroy loads, the only way they survived was because Elgin recognised their importance and saved them before they were gone forever by holding his nose and buying them from the Ottoman rulers when the Greeks were in no position to . The Greeks should be showing far more gratitude for that frankly. If they did I think conversations about returning them would get a better reception. Calling us thieves and colonisers is just simply insulting untrue and not how to influence the outcome. If you want them either pay for them or come and get them if you dare .
@@mogznwaz No, the emotional non-argument comes from the pointless British nationalist side that refuses to send back artifacts to their countries of origin. We know your museums would be near empty without those ill-gotten gains, but that's not our problem.
respect to Stephen Fry.This is the all truth and more many more.greece was occupied from turkey for 400 years.But he survive.But nothing were finished there, germany and franch attack to greece and then germany occupied greece for years.Now greece is in economic crisis but he will survive like at old ages.THIS IS GREECE and i say it only with respect.
Greece has had its fair share of upheaval. All the more reason to acknowledge that Elgin bought the marbles from the Ottomans before they were destroyed. The Greeks should be very grateful
The argumentation for sending them back was full of progress, imagination, friendship. The opposition used what ifs, deflection, legalities and defensiveness. Perhaps there are good arguments to keep them but if there is, they never used them.
Everyone feels defensive nowadays about asserting historical truths about the British empire that are not fashionable today. The fact is that Elgin saved the marbles from destruction by the Ottomans at a time when the Greeks could not. They should be more grateful frankly
Today, the only argument for keeping the Greek Marbles in the British Museum lies inside an excel sheet, the one for tourism, where you can see numbers with a £ symbol next to them.
The argument about having obtained the marbles 'legally' is flimsy as it chooses to apply a false notion of 'sovereignty' to the Ottoman sultan. The sultan who sold these marbles was only in the 'sovereign' position to sell them because his forebears had invaded, conquered and subjugated the Greek people by force 350 years before. He was not in any way a legal representative of the people, the culture, or the peoples' will - he was their oppressor. Ask yourself this. Would the sultan have ever sold marbles from the Blue Mosque or Topkapi to a visiting Englishman? Would a sovereign Greek ruler have ever sold the Parthenon marbles?
"Would a sovereign Greek ruler have ever sold the Parthenon Marbles?" Do you mean a Greek CHRISTIAN ruler whose government had seized a pagan temple? ...That's like asking whether the prime minister of Italy can sell pieces of the Vatican, or whether an Indian Mughal ruler can sell bits and sculpture work of Hindu temples. So, what if a Communist government of Italy were using the seized Vatican as an ammunition magazine? ...Could Christians from abroad RESCUE its treasures by buying them from a hostile Communist government and transporting the pieces to their own museums? ...That's more like what in fact happened with regard to the Elgin Marbles. The Greek CHRISTIANS hardly valued them any more than the Turks. The Greeks of the early 19th Century had to be taught to value their classical heritage by the classically-educated Western European teachers. ...They even had to be taught that they were "Hellenes" and not "Romaioi".
But that's answering to a completely different thing. I was refuting the defense of Elgins' actions as 'legal', a favorite Museum position. They were not for reasons mentioned. Now you come along with this other position about salvaging treasure from certain harm - ironically by causing more harm than was prevented and leaving behind a relic that plainly bears the marks of that harm. Appreciate the effort, I guess. We will have them back now and you can have the copies we have in Athens, thank you very much. As to the boneheaded rest of your point about classical appreciation. It's true that it begins with Western Europe, or let's say it does. Advances made in the field by Brits, Germans and others are immeasurable, I have nothing but admiration. But since you want to be a prick about it, fine. Walk by a London bank. What does it look like? That's right, a Greek temple. Greeks left behind for the Brits not only treasures to try and salvage or imitate, they gave them the very notion of a classical education by which to know their value.
"...answering to a completely different thing"?!? What? I answered your last question DIRECTLY. "Would a sovereign Greek ruler have ever sold the Parthenon marbles?" ....Does a Greek CHRISTIAN ruler who even disavows the identity as a "Hellene" have a greater (or lesser) claim on those marbles than a Turkish Muslim ruler? ....Or a nominally Christian Englishman, such as Elgin? ...(And, I remind you that Elgin and his peers were only NOMINALLY Christian because they've leavened their Christianity with ancient Greco-Roman humanism - which was the humanist legacy of the Renaissance on their educations. Something the Greeks didn't have at the time. ....Gee, they might make them MORE worthy of the Marbles, spiritually and morally speaking, than the other two claimants, mightn't it?) I'm "a prick" because I point out to you that the "Latin" West RESCUED THE ANCIENT GREEK LEGACY and handed it back to the Greeks in the late 19th century?!? ....If a London bank has classical architectural motifs, it's because the WEST appreciated the Greek classical legacy, and NOT the Greeks (at the beginning of the 19th century). ....Oh, the Greeks - the CHRISTIAN Rhomaioi - "left behind" this legacy, you say? ....They threw most of it ....INTO THE LIME KILNS !!!! ...This is why most of the classical marble statuary we have today are Roman copies (or statues which the Romans thankfully PLUNDERED during their initial conquests of Greece) which have been recovered from places like Pompeii, etc. (Some of it has been recovered from the sea floor. And a few statues have been dug up in Greece or Asia Minor.) The Parthenon on the Acropolis, like the Pantheon in Rome, was preserved because those buildings were converted into churches. This spared them for a while. When the Turks took control of Athens, they used the Parthenon as a store house for GUNPOWDER!! ...THAT is the reason for most of its damage, you fucking idiot! ...The Greeks - oops! Sorry! "Rhomaioi" - weren't even in a position to protect their legacy. Hardly any Greeks by the late Second Millennium A.D. had any real appreciation of this legacy anyway. (They were still medieval Christians, untouched by any Renaissance, or "rebirth" of the classical Greek heritage.) No, Bodhidharma, it wasn't the Christian Rhomaioi who bequeathed the classical educational ideal upon the Western Europeans; it was the West Europeans themselves who re-discovered this legacy from the ancient Greco-Roman world (with much help from Arab scholars and, yes, a few Greek scholar-refugees from the collapsing Byzantine world - Greek scholars who went under-appreciated in Byzantium itself and were more appreciated in Florence, Padua, Venice and Rome than by their fellow Greeks - I mean, Rhomaioi). If ANY modern-day Greek appreciates this heritage, it is because 19th century West Europeans (mainly from Germany, France, Britain, and Italy) TAUGHT them to re-appreciate this heritage. ...I'll tell you what, maybe the British can make some copies of these Marbles, and send those to the Acropolis museum in Athens. The Greeks are not so stupid as to want to put the ORIGINAL Marbles back up on the actual Parthenon, do they? (Where they would be exposed to the atmospheric pollution?) ....No. The Marbles, whether in London or in Athens will be in a climate-controlled museum. Copies would work just as good! You can go to the Albert & Victoria Museum (in London) and see superior-looking copy of marble reliefs from Trajan's Column than you would see on the actual Column in Rome (because of the pollution damage to the reliefs on the actual column). ...I'm sorry, but there's just no SUFFICIENT reason to move the Elgin Marbles to Athens. They are fine right where they are at! If the British have ANY BACKBONE, they will successfully resist demands to return them. You don't see the Italians returning all of their "acquisitions" from the sack of Constantinople of 1204, do you? Those four horses at St. Mark's Basilica, in Venice, which used to grace the Hippodrome in Constantinople, they are not going back, are they? ....And, a lot of other goodies from Constantinople - you don't hear anything about that, do you? They are staying where they are at! Because the Italians won't entertain the idea of "returning" them! ...The only reason Greeks keep harping on these Marbles is because of a gaggle of self-hating Brits joining in the chorus to plunder the museum collections of Great Britain to "restore" the artifacts and anthropological remains to where they were dug up or liberated from. In most cases, these items were dug up in places where the natives were not in a position to care for them, or they under-appreciated them, or just plain didn't care about their existence. They didn't appreciate the value of these things until the British (or German or French) scholars, anthropologists, or archaeologists discovered or re-discovered them and explained the significance of the relevant items! ...Only then do they shout, "Give those things back!" These things have VALUE to humanity because of the work of these very same scholars and scientists who are accused of "plundering" them. The persons who appreciate the value of these things, and can show the rest of humanity the SIGNIFICANCE of these items to our heritage, and can demonstrate the ability to conserve them - THEY are the ones most deserving of keeping them - NOT people whose only claim to these items is merely that they are the blood descendants of the creators of those artifacts (but forgot their value and significance later, and were neglecting them). ETHNIC IDENTITY is not the basis of ownership claims on artifacts or even ancient human remains. (Edit to add: If the ancient human remains are beyond the memory of your family or community, then your claim of custody over those remains is baseless. The competent scientist who can give those remains historical significance - and thus value to the knowledge of humanity - has the stronger claim to those human remains. You wouldn't have known about them or what they really were until the competent scientist came along and explained their identity and significance.) Rather it is the scholars and scientists who can discover and explain to the rest of humanity the VALUE of those items, the historical and scientific SIGNIFICANCE of these items, and can also most successfully CONSERVE these items for posterity, ...who are most deserving to have POSSESSION of those items as a trust for the benefit of human knowledge and inspiration. When THAT is the standard in determining who has the right to possess them, then the argument for returning them to Athens simply lacks merit.
Please. You're either too young and immature or have a tremendously poor grasp of history, both the history of the Greco-Roman East in particular and how history takes its shape in general. In either case there's no reason for you to be going on with these tirades. Yes, it was the Byzantine Greek scholars fleeing the fall of Constantinople, carrying with them what they could salvage from the libraries of Constantinople, who ignited the passion with classical lore in the West of Europe. The University of Constantinople (let's not forget, the largest and most prestigious of its kind in Europe for centuries) housed for example the most comprehensive collection of Aristotle's writings Europe had seen. It figures. Greek-speaking scholars would have been the best equipped to copy and preserve the work. The only Aristotle West Europe had seen before that time were the Arabic commentaries of Avicenna. Western Europeans 're-discovered the legacy of ancient Greece' because Greeks had continuously preserved and curated that legacy for a few hundred years, even while, yes, simultaneously differing between themselves about what that legacy meant, because, surprise, that is how society and identity work. Did every single Greek peasant in medieval Athens swell with pride at the sight of the Parthenon or identified themselves as direct descendants of Socrates? But that's neither here nor there. They didn't have to. An American from Mississippi of the 1870s, 1920s or 1980s might see Lincoln as tyrant and Washington DC as monument to his oppression but that makes neither him nor a Northerner from Boston any less part of the same society of peoples. The rest of your points are flimsy. No, you do not deserve to keep the Marbles because a British aristo lopped them off with the trivial consent of a foreign occupying force. No, the world did not sit on its thumbs waiting for traveling Brits to point out to them the importance of their cultural legacy. But some countries have been luckier than others and managed to avoid invasion, plunder, ruin and systemic oppression for a few centuries.History took this, that and the other turn, producing the world as it has come to be. I understand the difficulty of precedent for the Museum and personally am fine with the Marbles staying in either place. But the mental gymnastics performed by the likes of you in the attempt to delegitimize modern day Greeks as custodians of their own history would be laughed out of any room.
And i ask you British protectors of the Ancient Greek History.... IF the marbles owner was the United States of America, would this video , this debate exist???? I'm waiting for your answers.
There are American paintings in the British Museum,stop pretending the ancients have anything to do with you.You have more in common with your Turkish masters.
Sylvester-The Piano Man thank you for your support. Unfortunately, its quite obvious to me that the actual reason for not sending the marbles back to where they belong has to do with money. If they send them back, its pretty sure that other requests from countries will follow too, so eventually the museum will start to lose glow and money.. Money is always a serious reason., i cant disagree. But a priceless piece of civilization is even more serious and it will always be. And yes, if the owner was the USA and not "weak" Greece, the marbles would have already been returned. Thanks. Nick (the Greek)
***** why don't you answer to Sylvester's question?cause you have nothing to say and you got owned?first you say your nonsense to look cool and then you don't answer to a simple question?i will answer for you.if Americans were to ask for their paintings to be returned to America, Great Britain would have given them back in the next day.but since we Greeks aren't as powerful as Americans are, Great Britain says "fuck off, we don't give them back".if you come see these marbles in our museum their view is going to be thousand times better and more astonishing than the cold grey background view you see in the British Museum
Well, let's split Stonehenge to many different museums in different countries. It would be safer and also would serve the international ideas that were mentioned by the side which was against the return of the Parhtenon marbles.
Cold is the heart, fair Greece, that looks on thee, Nor feels as lovers oer the dust they loved; Dull is the eye that will not weep to see Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed By British hands, which it had best behovd To guard those relics neer to be restored. Curst be the hour when their isle they roved, And once again thy hapless bosom gored, And snatchd thy shrinking Gods to northern climes abhorrd. Lord Byron.
The Greek Ministry of Culture addressed a request to the British Museum for the return of the Parthenon Sculptures to Greece. Once again, the British showed us how much they hate Greece and the Greeks. Their museum, with the audacity of an occupier and pirate state, replied NO: "The British Museum has no intention of removing controversial sections from the public exhibition." What does the British Museum mean? Did the British create these sculptures or set out to distort history because of globalization? Shame on them. God sees and will judge them accordingly.
Then the marbles....Now the Macedonia!!I feel angry about what other coutries did to a peaceful country with a brilliant history and people... The country that NEVER attack other country in the new history.They know only what defensive war is because they fought for freedom .The country who saved europe with their resistance to Nazis!!Million dead Greeks died for freedom and justice and nobody paid about these crimes.. STAY STRONG GREECE...AS ALWAYS!!!!!!!
plain logic says that as long as Greece has the infrastructure to keep the marbles safe (which is done, it is the new acropolis museum) then i dont see anything wrong to have them back here in Athens.They can use copies in UK for example like in Nashville, Tennessee where they have built a nice copy of the parthenon. :)
The British Museum has many stolen artifacts from all over the world, including (if I am not mistaken) the Benin Bronzes which the people and government of Benin have petitioned for the return of for years but no one seems to want to debate or publicize this because it’s an African country being taken advantage of. Sad.
I am Greek that was in London a few years ago, they had a whole leaflet in the room trying to justify it.Still have it.Anyway I am mostly watching this because I love Fry.The boy in the end was the best in the room.Some things are simple,yet still nothing has been done.
Arrived here due to Covid 19. I thoroughly enjoyed the debate and was personally very pleased the end result was a unanimous vote for returning the artefacts back to Greece. However, having lost every artistic, historical, moral and legal argument over the subsiding years, the pompous arrogance of Empire and colonialism prevails. The British Museum and British scholars must do the only honourable thing, this lengthy provocation is an embarrassment and an ethical sadness to culture, international friendship and democracy.
"Oh look at me I'm coming down to speak among the people--I'm one of you not one of them" This Armesto Professor is like a wannabe politician. Stephen Fry's expressions perfectly mirrored mine.
THE GREEKS HAD A FECKING EMPIRE TOO. The marbles represent the colonial wealth and grandeur of the Greek empire. How does that figure in your virtue signalling? The Parthenon was built by slaves - pretty much like everything else in the ancient world. And the only reason you think that was bad is BECAUSE THE BRITISH EMPIRE WAS THE FIRST IN HISTORY TO MAKE THAT PROFOUNDLY MORAL LEAP. The ingratitude and historical illiteracy is staggering.
@@mogznwaz are you freaking serious? Should we thank you that you STOLE our stuff??? GTFO , you should embarrased, you thieves. But i see you dont mention the colinazation by british. Did those countries had prosperity under your boot or they were just slaves to british empire and stole their natural resources (see India). Get lost because i have so much more to tell and roast your beer drunk arse. THIEEEVES.....
I doubt that the Elgin marbles would still exist in their current form if it weren't for Lord Elgin and the British. That being said, I think that the marbles should be sent back to Athens as a cultural gift. And while you're at it, send back Egyptian artifacts and mummies to Egypt, Indian artifacts and skeletons to the tribes from which they were taken, etc., etc. There is a lot more that could be changed in the relations between nations, but this would be a nice start.
Why do you believe this myth? the remaining sculptures that were not looted look in pretty good condition to me, you don't have to take my word for it go and see them in the Acropolis Museum
Peregrine1946 so you mean, give us OUR heritage back, that elgin stole, as a cultural gift? are you high?? get that into your thick head. They are STOLEN, they shouldn't be here. Get another thing into your thick head: how dare you say they wouldn't exist when it was elgin who first damaged them?? he CUT THEM OFF the Parthenon. Enough with this stupid crap. Another idiot said elgin excavated them!!!! You don't even know how the Parthenon is, what was on it, where the Marbles were, you think they were some separate item, that's how little you know about the subject and still you want to open your big mouths and talk about the heritage OF ANOTHER NATION. Bigoted idiots. WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE????REALLY??? Who appointed you policemen of the Greek antiquities?? if they were worthless and did not generate any revenue for you you'd have given them back by now, so don't bullshit us that you care about whether the Marbles exist or not or the state they're in. FUCK OFF, they were made by Greeks, they've got nothing to do with you. If Greeks hadn't made them, you wouldn't have made them either, they wouldn't exist, so GET OUT OF THE WAY!!
Xenia d Actually, I've walked the hill where the Parthenon stands and I've been to the Tate; I have always loved Greece. Perhaps you'd have rather relied upon the kindness of the Turks when they were breaking down the marbles for their armament? If you'd read what I wrote, rather than have reacted out of anger and emotion at someone who doesn't agree with you, you'd have seen that I believe these beautiful images should be returned to Greece, where they of course belong. This does not excuse your crude rudeness, however.
I'm British and have been o the British museum a couple of time in my life. I can't remember seeing the marbles. I'm sure they're fantastic and very important but to the average Brit it would make absolutely no difference if they were moved back to Greece.
a good quote has been known to get people to accept ideas with unintended consequences. So if the marbles go back what are you going to do with everything on the British Museum ? Or the Commonwealth... How about Northern Ireland ? You see where this is going ? How many things have Englishmen sold from their colonies ? Do the current owners now have to return them ? Sounds good on paper but as soon as you go down that road, by your own admission of historical guilt over an act you had nothing to do with, you now owe me money. Indians want their gems, Canadians want their beaver pelts and a million Irishmen want their lives back. We will drive ourselves insane trying to right the wrongs of the past. The only way forward is to forgive and forget. Live in the past if you want but I will expect my payment if everybody else is getting one.
@@seanfaherty I say that the EU blockades the UK until they give the marbles back and they stop occ*pying part of Cyprus. The British are the reason why Turkey inv*ded Cyprus in the first place.
Emotionally incontinent virtue signalling. Elgin bought the marbles legally from the Ottomans and prevented their destruction. You can only whine about the marbles today BECAUSE ELGIN SAVED THEM
@@mogznwaz They would also most likely exist today without Elgin just like the Parthenon. Look at the rest of the Parthenon which wasn’t taken by Elgin, it still exists
Stephen Fry has my absolute respect! What a perfect speech that was! The Parthenon marbles will sooner or later return to their birthplace, to Athens, their place of origin.
the argument about these particular sculptures is as intense as it is because it represents the last vestiges of British colonial arrogance. The patronizing arguments given to support the retention of these stolen goods is revolting to me. and I'm English by birth.
Mr. Fry's speech was incredible! He didn't even take a sneak peek at any papers, he just KNEW what was right and and couldn't do otherwise but just argue with the true facts.
He didn't refer to facts because this is an argument based on emotion. Facts say if you send back one thing you will have to send back everything. I'll be waiting for my fiver
@@seanfaherty Yeah, I think his speech was oratorically very good, but there's very little argument of substance in it. It's emotion dressed up in words. He doesn't do it to as an extreme degree such as some of the people in the audience (e.g. the lady), but I was surprised to see how many commenters were actually convinced by him.
I’m so glad other commenters recognise Fry’s speech for what it is - emotionally incontinent, historically illiterate virtue signalling. The marbles would not exist today if Elgin hadn’t recognised their importance and struck a deal with the Ottomans to remove them before they were DESTROYED. The Greeks should be grateful to Britain for preserving their history when they themselves could not.
NOT thieves. Elgin bought the marbles legally from the ruling power of the time. This historical revisionism and ignorance needs to be challenged because I’m sick of it. Go read some actual history books instead of whining about historical realities.
Parthenon is a building and a building it is not meant to be moved. You can't move the Stonehenge or the Big Ben to an another country it was build for the British and the rest of the world to adore them in Great Britain and so was the Parthenon, it was build by the Greeks for the Greeks and the rest of the world to adore it on top of the Acropolis hill in Greece.
Tristan Hunt comes off as disingenuous, and not of someone who is emotionally invested in his position in the slightest. His constant chuckling is laced with an air of arrogance. For all his dismissal of nationalism, what other reason would he have other than Anglo-centric nationalist aspirations. He's arguing in favour of the "British" Museum after all. His demeanour is one of indifference and ridicule. His lack of understanding about the marbles significance to the Greeks is best illustrated when he compares the Parthenon marbles to fancy British teacups and plates. In the same breath, he heaps praise on the Greek's abilities and manages to mumble an insult about Athenian smog. (Smog over Athens has all but been eradicated in the last decade. Even in the dead of August Summer heat, the skies over Athens are almost always blue. They radiate with 300 days of sunshine every year.) As for Felipe Armesto's slurred babblings... His false assertion that Modern Greece is unrelated to Ancient Greece is offensive and reveals a veiled disdain and dismissal of modern greek society. He's attempting to undermine and strip the Greeks of their achievements and culture through his retoric and his denial of the Marble's restitution.
...so true... ...by the way...try telling the Chinese or the Hindu's, the Mexicans or the Jews or Iranians or ANY other ancient culture ... that they have nothing to do with their ancestors...lol...this guy seems to forget about EVOLUTION of cultures and languages and art etc.... ...
Give them back they don't belong to England, they are part of a country that has been around for thousands & thousands of years, have respect it is appalling, this is not legal to keep them doesn't matter what ever excuses they come up with.
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I can tell you most assuredly that Greece as a country has *not* existed for thousands of years
Keeping a pillaged artwork that is clearly wanted back, just reeks of the worst parts of old Britain. The time of empire was what it was, you can’t change history but you can repeat it. Holding onto the Marbles signals a country stuck looking backwards, instead of accepting change and moving with it.
Honestly, the Britain Government is looking like a petulant child in this ongoing debate between two historically friendly countries who fought together in two world wars.
No. Greece is being the petulant child trying to get something back that is long lost to them thanks to the Ottomans who sold them legally to Elgin (and it is fortunate that they were as they would probably have been destroyed otherwise like so much else was under Ottoman rule - take that up with Turkey). If Greece wants them back they need to drop the self righteousness and insults. Or they can pay to reacquire them. Or they can invade Britain and take them as war booty. The Mona Lisa is in the Louvre not in Rome. London Bridge is in Arizona not in London. The original Winnie the Pooh is in New York. And so on and so on. The British Museum is really the museum of the world and has saved so much from destruction - it educates millions of people about the importance of Ancient Greece to Britain and to western civilisation.
This makes me think of the stone of scone argument. It was returned to Scotland, right? It is obvious on the face of it that the marbles were stolen and need to be returned. Copies can be made in a full exhibit as Stephen suggested.
The marbles were NOT stolen they were bought legally from the Ottomans who were the ruling power. Why not criticise them for selling them?? And if Elgin hadn’t done so they would no longer exist because the Ottomans destroyed idolatrous artefacts .
Return the stolen Marbles back to their birthplace. At last show some respect to the country that created 2500 years ago the modern Western Civilisation!!!
100% send them back. These are the artifacts of a people who are still around today. Their culture may have changed some, but its not like the English or Turkish who are a different people today than 2000 years ago. They're asking for *their* artifacts back.
I don't understand why people keep saying that Elgin saved the marbles from destruction as if his motive was honorable. He cherry-picked the bits and pieces he liked for his own use, and when he found he couldn't afford to transport all of those he had pillaged, he simply dumped the excess off in Italy. If he truly respected the marbles, he wouldn't have hacked off heads and torsos and left the Parthenon in such a deplorable state. His motive was personal gain, not preservation.
What a load of rubbish. If he HADN’T done that they’d be dust now. The Marbles were not protected by the Greeks themselves, they should be grateful they still exist unlike all the other ones that were destroyed by the Ottoman invaders
He vandalised it more than Venetians and Turks
And today we see the vandalators talking about giving them back 😢😂
Sad Europe
Yet the ultimate effect is preservation regardless of his motives. The fact is, if the marbles had been left there, they would have been ruined.
Stephen Fry has my absolute respect! What a perfect speech that was! The Parthenon marbles will sooner or later return to their birthplace, to Athens, their place of origin.
i'd love to read some day they were 'stolen back' in the dead of night
Fun fact: I know about these marbles because of an Alex Rider novel with a plot where a dying Greek billionaire hires a terrorist organization to blackmail the British into sending the Elgin Marbles back to Greece
@@TheRealBarbDwyer They weren’t stolen they were bought legally to save them from destruction by the Ottomans. This myth needs to stop- the Greeks should be fecking grateful they still exist and have been preserved so well. Maybe they could buy them back - I wonder what Elgin paid for them and what that would be in todays money? 🤔
The British pillaged every nation their empire they could oppress with arms. They give white people a bad name.
They need a debate to even see the wrong they have done.
I am British and patriotic, but I firmly believe that the Parthenon Marbles should be returned to their original home on the Acropolis. Wouldn’t they look better, restored to their former glory?
I agree but it’s the lack of gratitude and the historical illiteracy that pisses me off. The Ottomans would have destroyed the marbles, Elgin recognised their importance and struck a deal to let him take them to Britain. They would not exist today if Elgin hadn’t done what he did. The lack of gratitude from Greeks makes me not want to give them back.
@@mogznwaz I urge you to make a parallel comparison to you , as a Brit would feel if we Greeks had a piece of Stonehenge and wouldn’t give it back. These sculptures are part of our soul. Our heritage. It’s who we are. It’s our identity. And you must understand that the temple still stands, even after Lord Elgin left .
@@msanna9365 London Bridge, a part of our heritage, was sold to an American and is now in Arizona. That move is now part of our history and you won’t hear any Brit whining about it.
@@msanna9365 Elgin saved the marbles from almost certain destruction. I think Elgin should have left them there and let them be destroyed so that you would now have nothing to whine about . The Taliban destroyed the Buddhist statues of Barniyan. If that destruction had been prevented by moving the statues to Germany would you have preferred they stay in Germany or that they had never been moved? . . .
@@mogznwaz under which rule?
I really hope I live to see the marbles returned to Greece. And I live 2.5 miles from the British museum.
@Parker Murry and who won?
Hats off to you sir!!
Εύγε φίλε!
échete díkio!
I do, too...Love the Horse of Selene, but would so happily see her galloping across the skies in a plane to her rightful Home in Athens.
As a Turkish person, maybe I should not open my mouth on this subject, but I find this appalling. Another Ottoman A-holery, basically. It is clear who the artifacts are belong to. They should be returned. If the British cares so much about them, they can help the Greek government to care for them. Although my direct ancestors were not related to Ottoman family, I personally apologize from this horrible situation, and if I was in Turkish Government, I would have tried to pressure the British for their return. Again, I am so sorry. This is terrible. I hope it will be return to their rightful place one day.
Emine Dilek Respect for your comment and your way of thinking my friend.
+Emine Dilek You are one of the smart progressive Turks. But you have to know, Greece lost its glory and progres, thanks to the Turkish occupation for 400 years. I'm sorry if this offends you but the Greeks are now suffering thanks to your then Barbarick Country.
+Emine Dilek I am greek, and I really find your opinion touching :) And the how turkish managed those ages doesnt mean that he should be told that ... There will always be some hard feelings between turkish and greeks, but there are always smart and not so smart people in both sides.
No, greeks are now suffering because every fucking president is a selfish basdard! :P The war with Turkey was a problem that kept Greeks out of the picture and damaged its progress but it's not the reason why Greece is suffering today.
Yeh, I think so too... :P
Greek here. Lots of audacity from the "against" side, but the one at 36:50 ish from the snake oil selling sounding gentleman takes the cake. "Every culture thinks their own cultural artefacts are of supreme importance".
The audacity! I'm speechless. If you don't think they are important, *return them to those who think they are!*
As a Greek I respect the fact that they conducted a debate about the marbles. Stephen Fry is the best face of Britain. He belongs to all of us !!!
Yeah, return Stephen Fry! - or no, hang on, he wasn't stolen from us...
oh the irony of your statement
The marbles were NOT STOLEN. Elgin recognised their importance and struck a deal to rescue them from destruction by the Ottomans - at great personal cost. The historical illiteracy is staggering. Even Stephen Fry is coming from a place of pure virtue signalling emotion, shame on him as he is an educated man and should know better.
I also respect you for having Captain Harlock as your profile.
@@jacoblehrer4198 Cut him some slack, he also said in the previous sentence that Stephen Fry is the best representative of Britain.
Elgin didn't respect such a unique monument. Taking pieces out of the Parthenon was an act of adventurism not an act of respect towards an ancient civilization and definitely not an effort to preserve, keep safe and use the marbles as the cornerstone of international interchange of ideas....Elgin's son , James Bruce, 8th Earl of Elgin and 12th Earl of Kincardine was the one who ordered the destruction and looting of the Summer Palace in China during the opium war. It's a historical fact that this family indeed respected human civilization, I guess destruction of ancient monuments runs in the Elgin family.
@@harrier331 With respect, he did leave some behind. They were left in the rain and sun for 200 years and are in terrible condition. There is NO debate that he, intentionally or not, saved them by taking them. That is a fact.
That said, you are absolutely correct: it's entirely irrelevant. Whether they were saved by taking them or whether they would have been neglected otherwise- neither of these is an argument for or against their return.
@@harrier331
The Greeks Would Have Never
Been and Have Never Been in a
Position to Preserve the Elgin marbles! Safe inside of a world -
Class Museum, more people have viewed them in England than if they were left in place.
Reproductions instead should be
Installed made of a weather resistant material. But if returned, they Could be Vandalized, Destroyed by the Salty Winds.
@@tomvalveede6808 This isnt even an argument. By the same logic i can steal your house and your property if you don't take care of it. What you are doing is basically dropping out speculations only and nothing else . No one knows what would happen and no one will ever know, since you are plain thieves and will never return them.
I was told the Turks were going to destroy the marbles to break Greek culture. Suddenly the Ottomen had great respect for Greek culture... revisionist history just never stops revising
@@tomvalveede6808 It is true that common Greeks of that time didn’t care about ancient monuments. Elgin might have saved them then. The British museum, however, damaged the marbles in 1930’s when they tried to bleach them to make them whiter, having forgotten that this specific type of marble is tawny. Also, reports have been made (and myself I also witnessed that when I visited the museum in 2010) that the ceiling of the room where the marbles are exhibited is leaking after heavy rain. Since 2009 Greece has built an amazing world-class museum equipped with the best technology where the marbles can be preserved and presented there at their natural environment. Greece is also way advanced in antiquity preservation. You can’t compare Greece nowadays with that of 50/100 years ago. The preservation argument has thus lost its meaning.
If Stephen Fry says we should send them back - Send them back.
No. The Greeks should be grateful to Elgin and the British for rescuing the marbles from the Ottomans before they were destroyed. In the BM they have been seen and appreciated by millions of people who now understand that the British inherited the mantle of western civilisation from Ancient Greece, understood its importance and took action at a time when the Greeks themselves could not
you are obviously a Fryist
@mogznwaz unfortunately Britain lost the mantle of western civilization shortly after the second world war, as the USA took over. But we don't send the marbles, along with all of the other treasures, over to the US just because they have a larger economy than Britain. It's a strawman argument that tries to justify the theft on grounds of benevolent altruism and preservation, when it was in fact the warped legal pillaging of an occupied country.
Stephen Fry’s argument was vivid and human while Armesto’s one arrogant was so full of the glory of the British Museum that I honestly feel sorry for the guy 🙁
Fry’s argument was full of emotional virtue signalling. The fact is if Elgin had not struck a deal with the Ottomans the marbles would no longer exist for you to whine about them.
@@mogznwaz 🤦
Stephen Fry put tears in my eyes. Thank you for your support sir.
Come on England, be classy, be proud and courageous, give them back to us , let them come back to where they belong.
everything your country has was gained legally and morally right?
@@leebirchenough8890 Don't quite get it do you.
@@kingy002 what don’t I get mark? Enlighten me
The marbles only exist because Elgin legally acquired them from the Ottomans before they DESTROYED THEM. If the Greeks expressed more gratitude for that fact I’d be more disposed to sending them back .
@@kingy002 Your arrogant virtue signalling is only matched by your historical illiteracy
As a Greek, I was really moved by Stephen Fry
Were you born in Greece and live in Greece? Or are you abroad too?
Anyone who doubts the safety of the Parthenon marbles is wellcome to visit the Acropolis museum and see by him/her-self how this ancient monuments are being taken care of and how empty the sacred temple of Athena is without them!
@@DranPan Been there. Absolutely loved the museum.
Well, that shows you are not that intelligent.
Pan Dran, perhaps a little gratitude to the people who saved them from destruction is in order? What do you want to do, sell them to pay for your economic crisis?
I'm not even Greek or British. I'm from the Philippines, a country who suffered 3 occupations (Spanish, Japanese, and American) and I'm so moved by the decency, the gentleness, and the ethics of Stephen Fry. It's not merely an appeal to emotion, as people may point out, but an appeal to ethics and human conscience which, when considered, could touch the hearts of many. Stephen Fry is an amazing soul.
I would be ok with it if the Greeks weren’t so aggressively rude and insulting about British people while making their demands
@@mogznwaz If those are legitimate demands of which they have been denied for so long, I think I could forgive their rudeness.
@@mogznwaz The British pillaged every nation their empire they could oppress with arms. They give white people a bad name.
They need a debate to even see the wrong they have done.
Yes, regrettably one of the last vestiges of decency in the world it seems. The other 99.99999% seem to only be concerned with how rich and/or influential they can get.
It's a shame to see a Professor get up on stage and blather on about the intellectual superiority of his side. Ignoring the origin of the subject and instead praising the British have taken care of what they basically stole.
WELL THEY BETTER BE!
But let's do what the Professor suggest:
We make the British museum international territory and put it under the direction of an internationally elected group. Entry to the museum will be free and travel to and from paid by the British government. Britain's responsibility will be to perpetually fund the museum, travel and accomodations. It's for the people of the world of course or do the poor not count?
If this is the argument "It's for the good of the world at the cost of the British." then let's actually make that so!
O and pulling another Brexit isn't an option, you want this? Then commit or shut up!
Stephen Fry is the universal rebuttal to the religion based claim that all homosexuality and homosexuals are immoral degenerates.
The kid at the end made the best argument for it out of them all. Its a like art in a rich persons house, anyone coming over couldn't care less if its an original... they just look and think that's nice. In a natural history museum I can still appreciate the replica dinosaur sculptures.
I am Bulgarian and Stephen Fry almost made me cry. I can only imagine how much that speech would mean to people from Greece. SEND THEM BACK!
Hi neighbour
You said it!
@@edwardd652 Modern Greeks arrived with spaceship,they speak a language that a crazy man would say it is ancient Greek evolved in 2500 but no this is crazy it is Martian,and Greeks look like Turkish so they are Turks,but the crazy man would again note that the Turkish don't look like the original Turks in central Asia where they came from like Uzbekistan,so your logic would be olive oil and Mediterranean breeze changed their DNA in a few centuries.
Yes - virtue signalling based on emotion and historical revisionism is always a big seller
@@mogznwaz I don't get the point. I mean how would you think about it if russia dismatled Big Ben and sent it Moscow... or did the same to
Stonehenge
Several years ago I was strolling through a narrow street in the fascination mountain village of Karpathos and as I passed a local lady she stared at me and said 'When will you return our marbles?' I felt ashamed.
I am Greek myself, and also an internationalist. Therefore, I am in favour of institutions like the British Museum exhibiting various national treasures of the world to international audiences. However, I still fail to see why it is so vital for them to legally "own" the marbles of the parthenon. I don't believe they should be permanently displayed in the Acropolis museum, they can certainly be loaned to any major museum, but the opposite strikes me as strange to say the least.
Yes, this was on my mind too. What a strange position to defend with genuine conviction, that Greece should be happy to have the marbles loaned to them by the British Museum
agreed
Λυπάμαι που θέλεις να λέγεσαι Έλληνας; η μήπως τελικά δεν είσαι; η προπαγάνδα υπάρχει παντού
I never really listened to arguements about the return of the Parthenon Marbles, I always thought they should be returned, but listening to the British Museum's perspective just showed an arrogance and a sense of privilege and colonialism thinking that belongs in the past
Wrong. Elgin rescued the marbles from destruction by the Ottomans. Perhaps he should have just let them be destroyed. I note that the anger is at Britain for rescuing and preserving the marbles for the world to see, rather than at the Turks for selling them and destroying so much else when they were in Greece. Why is that?!
@@mogznwaz Well as we saw in the video, even a Turkish woman claimed the marbles should be returned. Notably, many Greeks appreciate the support of people like Mr Fry and Mr. George, Mr Fry making a case that the British museum could open an extraordinary exhibit, classy as he described it, that would show how the marbles were preserved and then returned to where they belonged. I have not seen a single comment that contest this idea of the exhibit, how it would be an outrageous notion, so as to your claim that people would be angered at Britain, well.. that's just nonsense.
The head of a statue is in London and the rest of the statue in Athens. Imagine "Mona Lisa" being half in Paris and half in Rome. All the pieces of the statues must be reunited and since Parthenon is in Athens and these marbles are part of the Greek history, the British have to do what's morally right and return them.
***** Elgin only wanted the marbles to decorate his estate. He sold them to the BM to pay his debts. Instead of selling his family's heritage he sold the Greek's.
Yeah there exists one slight problem though. There exists no record that says Elgin took them lawfully. He claims he had permission from the sultan, but the firman he claimed doesn't exist, nor Britain has some sort of proof of ownership or any sort of transaction by Elgin.
Furthermore, even British eye witnesses that were with him, had written back then that he had been given permission to go up the hill in order to paint and get casts of them to recreate them. They freaked out when he started hacking them and were calling him a vandal and the troops he ordered to hack them away disagreed with this action.
Moreover, Elgin didn't excavate and find them, but removed them from the Parthenon itself, damaging the monument irreparably.
Finally, the debate is not about whether Britain or Greece should own them, but whether they should be where they were made.
If you look at what Greece says, they don't want the ownership of the marbles. They just want them to be displayed there, with the BM retaining the ownership of the marbles. What they propose is a long-term loan and a coalition between the museums and there is a proposal for other antiquities to be lent from Greece to the BM so that they are displayed there.
I totally agree. I belong to a large group of British people who want the Marbles returned to the Hellenic Republic.
That’s more a reflection of Greek failings than British ones, wouldn’t you say?
@@herodotus6235 Might is right?
I am so touched to see people, British people like the young man in the audience who spoke in the end,
that care and want the restoration of marbles.. It's truly amazing and heartwarming, thank you so much!
Love from a Greek who lives in Bonny Scotland!
Actually that young man comment made me emotional, Yes! I would rather see all the pieces together, and it be replaced with cast copies, and see greeks restore their culture, than keeping them just because of legalities
I have no issue with putting them back but I do take issue with this narrative that they were stolen. They weren’t. They were bought legally by Elgin in order to save them from destruction by the Ottomans. The Greeks should be damn well grateful that the British understood their importance and preserved them so
beautifully for all to see.
That young man gave an extra solid reason! The friendship of the Greeks!
To the lady that said the Ottomans ruled with a light hand unlike the nazis, I would recommend she studies some history!
Her statement is as ignorant and insulting as the claims of a holocaust denier!
They even no worse than any other empures such as Russian and Austro-Hungarian. The west has demonized the Ottoman Empire too much. Does not matter what Greek nationalists say.
"We will never, ever be able to repay the debt we owe Greece" Bring them back!
So true. By holding the marbles back and attempting to make excuses for why they "borrowed" the marbles and the "problems" they face if they return them they are only worsening the situation they are in and causing more tension between themselves and Greece. #BringThemBack!
yes!!!!
And Greece will never ever be able to repay it's debts to Germany.
The Jedi Train Spotter Weeeell... that's debatable. Greece is one of the countries that didn't seek compensation for WWII deaths and destruction from.... Germany, so that the country could start from scratch. Otherwise Germany would not exist today, because it should have paid tons of money in many countries after WWII. So, you could say that Greece owes absolutely nothing to Germany, because Germany was always on the other side every time Greece took part in a war and despite that Greece agreed to let Germany stand back on its feet after WWII.
@@roundhousetrainspotting Talking about Greek debt to Germany, one could also consider the number of executions and the amount of destroyed industry, buildings, ports, bridges, roads, forests, etc etc inflicted by Nazi Germany to Greece, contrasted to the petty amount of reparations Germany paid Greece for this destruction. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations
Stephen Fry . MY RESPECT
Why? He makes no valid argument.
@@andrewcarson5850 Explain?
@@andrewcarson5850 for u maybe yes.
Evil Scotsman he is a popular leftist gay who everyone jumps to agree with whenever he opens his mouth. Do not confuse that with making a truly valid argument.
It's a part work of art and should be restored for that fact alone.
Why a debate? They belong to Greece.
They were sold. You don't get to beg for their return.
@@xandercorp6175 They were stolen*. and then sold by Elgin to the british government... so yeah they were sold
@@4gazofonias Countries aren't people, my poor deluded man. England is no more beholden to return the marbles to Greece than Greece is beholden to give Macedonia reparations - that is to say, not at all.
@@xandercorp6175 Macedonia? You call Vardarska Banovina, as it was known 80 years ago to the Bulgarians and Albanians that populate it, "Macedonia"? By what right? Since when are the made up, propagandist stories of the Yugoslavian and Soviet communists who created the fake Macedonian nation to cut off the influence of the Bulgarian state to the ethnic Bulgarians living in FYROM, something that we ought to accept as the truth?
Modern historians teaching in American and English universities like Yale and Oxford teach that ancient Macedonians were a Hellenic (Greek) people, and therefore have nothing to do with modern "Macedonians" or ethnic brainwashed Bulgarians of FYROM. So yes, the marbles belong to Greece because they were stolen, and no Greece does not owe reparations to the Bulgarian people of FYROM because nothing was stolen from them, dear uneducated and ignorant fellow.
@@Proud2bGreek1 I refer to _Macedonia_ as Macedonia, as you do - though you would rather hide it behind an acronym. By what right do I refer to a country by its chosen name? I am not sure what right a free person needs to refer to a country by the name it uses, so you will have to educate me there. But you present no arguments, merely make empty points about what a country was called 80 years ago, or whether or not the Hellenics are related to the modern Balkans (you and I both know the answer to that).
But please, if it makes you feel superior to do so, feel free to assume that I don't know what I'm talking about and to "support" your assertions with red herrings. Its banal, but you seem to need the diversion and I would never deny an idiot his simple pleasures.
11 years later and Sunak saw this as a reason to not meet the Greek PM.
Speechless.
Why are they called Elgin"s marbles ? Did he make them ? They were part of the acropolis for over 2000 years.He came along took them and now they are refered as Elgin's marbles? Ridicule...A side note: In the Greek war of independence, the Turkish garrisons on the acropolis, ran out of cannon balls & started firing pieces of marble instead. When the Greeks found out they made a deal with the Turkish garrisons that they would supply canon balls in the morning for the Turks to be able to fire them !!! This is the importance the Greeks place on the acropolis, and still do today....
No,not pieces of marble. They took apart the columns, and they stole the led reinforcement that were between the " spondylee" ,to make balls for canons. They broke many columns....the Greek captens offered to give Tham balls, as not to destroy the temple........then, here comes count Morosini he bombarded Parthenon the black powder stocks blu up to the sky,and it's a real miracle that most of the monument is still standing.
Lord Elgin was looking for ornaments to decorate his garden as was fashionable at the time, so he obtained authority to remove some, in doing so he became bankrupt and sold them to the British museum.
The British should do the decent thing and send them back to Greece.
Greek orthodox destroyed parthenon and morozini the italian not elgin !!!! British they just bought some parts of this ruins....
Ive been to both museums, i spent 10-15 looking at the marbles in Britain and don’t remember a single thing the plaques said. I spent a full day at the acropolis/museum and learned every year of their history. To say they have better context in london as opposed to looking up at Parthenon behind them is pathetic.
Just because you were too obtuse to get anything out of your viewing is hardly an argument and says a lot more about and your virtue signaling than the merits of the case.
@@marctempler3250 it’s a personal anecdote that is very relevant to the topic. I was 13 when I visited and 14 when I visited Athens. So I was very ignorant. Much like other kids that visit these places. But that’s exactly the point. Where is the best place for ignorant people to go to view the marbles and learn.
@@marctempler3250 That's a very weak argument.
I too saw the Parthenon sculptures as a young child on a school trip, and as a Londoner, one who loves especially the Horse of Selene, I think they need to be returned to their rightful home in Greece.
Nothing about 'Virtue signalling', but by doing what is right.
Greece was stripped of them illegally, and they need returning.
@@Wowowowowowowowowowowowow I was about 10 when I first saw the Marbles, on a school trip.
Loved the Horse of Selene, bought a postcard of that magnificent wild equine head, straining against it's bridle, but agree 100% that they need to go Home, to Athens.
@@Oakleaf700 They weren’t stripped or stolen - Elgin bought them legally and saved them from destruction. The Greeks should be GRATEFUL.
Interesting discussion. As a Greek who believes that the Parthenon Marbles should be in Parthenon I would like to thank the turkish woman from the audience who clarified that Greece was under occupation when the marbles were taken.
They weren’t taken, they were sold to Britain legally. If the ottomans had not agreed to this they would no longer exist for the Greeks to whine about it. Show some gratitude ffs that Elgin understood the importance of the marbles and took steps to preserve them before it was too late.
Τι τραγικο να ζηταν πισω πραγματα που εχουν αγοραστει απο αγγλους και οχι κλεμενα !!!! Ας πληρωσουν να τα παρουν αλλιως δεν εχει κουφετο μαγκες ...
@@mogznwaz By your logic to quote Stephen Fry, when the Netherlands were under Nazi occupation then it would have been legitimate for an English ambassador to go and ''purchase'' a painting of Rembrandt from the Nazi authority in Amsterdam. We both know it doesn't stand. As for your argument that Elgin took them to save them, it is also false. The true reason he removed the sculptures was for personal profit. They were brutally sawn off and transported to the UK. Also bear in mind that during their initial preservation process in the British Museum, they were brushed with metal wire resulting in irreversible damage on their surface. The main reason the British Museum is refusing to give them back is because they are a major attraction. We can argue all day with superficial statements, but the fact of the matter is that the British Museum is holding artefacts that are simply not theirs and not of their cultural heritage. The descent thing to do is to return them to their rightful owners.
@@johnioannou7578The Ottoman Empire had stood for over 400 years, to compare them to the Nazis especially consuming out of blood Britain shed liberate Greece in world war II I think is more than little insulting.
you cant in law sell something that not yours @@mogznwaz
I fail to understand why anyone would even agree to debate against Stephen Fry. You know he'll wipe the floor with you.
Fry is an idiot's impression of what intelligence is.
@@andrewcarson5850 Are you serious?
@@jayjay-dr9pr Yes.
@@andrewcarson5850 you must be quite stupid then
@@jayjay-dr9pr How so?
at 41:01. Then Mr. Hunt please share the Crown Jewels with the rest of the world so we can enlighten the world by exchanging these artifacts...
Well said!
He's a leftist he probably would.
Also stolen from India
@@iz723 “stolen” it’s had various owners
AMEN !!! See how the Royals, & their supporters like that !!!!!
Felipe sounds like a caricature of an 18th century powdered wig. Can't take him seriously.
DarKool81 Imagine this guy being your teacher at uni... my god some people have to have him every day
Felipe looks and sounds drunk
casual class snobbery isn't ok just because you've reversed the usual direction.
Listening to his voice for any length of time would be (for me anyway) a test of endurance.
Listening to his voice for any length of time would be (for me anyway) a test of endurance.
Stephen Fry. Now THERE is a national treasure!
Legally, the Parthenon marbles belong to the British Museum. But, the law is an ass!
Morally, they belong to Greece. Send them home!
I would think “morally” gracey they should stay here. Greece has not been a good parent.
@@herodotus6235 It was the Ottoman Empire which was in control of Greece and which didn't care for the historical treasures of Greece.
Elgin paid the Turks to take the treasures. It's like paying someone who has broken into a house for its contents! If you think that's 'moral' there's no hope for you!
@@graceygrumble What if history repeats again? These marbles are safer in London from Turkish attacks.
@@marius7098 That's true. Most things are 'safer' when looked after by us (The British), rather than Johnny Foreigner. We're just more... British! However, The Elgin Marbles 'fell off the back of a lorry'; we can't pretend otherwise - although, we've endeavoured to do so for the last 200 years and rather successfully.
Get them 3-D printed; display the copies and send the originals back where they belong. Put a condition on the return. ie if you're holding a British passport, entrance to view the originals, once they're back where they belong, is free.
National museums are free in the UK, after all, whereas Johnny Foreigner charges people to be culturally enriched. Philistines!
@@harrier331 They weren't 'stolen'. I don't think Elgin was a bad guy. Umpteen people had mapped the site of the Acropolis and each new survey found that antiquities were disappearing, goodness knows where.
I think he did the right thing - protecting the antiquities of Greece. At least, that was his excuse, at the time, when everyone was appalled by their acquisition.
Greece is capable of protecting them, now.
To keep them is morally indefensible.
Stephen Fry is amazing. A simple man with a brilliant mind, a true philhellen, a talented actor and speecher... Make him Prime Minister of England. Or Greece for thst matter (for although he's British, he's a 1000+ times better than any Greek politician out there).
YES! Wouldn't that be a dream come true? Let me milk this in my imagination :)
The only thing is Silver Doe, we really want someone who looks after British interests as Prime minister, not some popular leftist who will help to destroy our identity.
And look after every other country except our own. That will not help us.
"We will never ever EVER be able to repay the debt that we owe Greece " THANK YOU AND ALL MY RESPECT TO YOU STEPHAN FRY
It was beautifully put and absolutely spot on.
The Zionist Brits (Rothschilds, Soros) are the architects of the destruction of Greece and they have planted every corrupt Greek Government for the past one hundred years.
He was talking about Ancient Greece, like Ancient Egypt and Ancient Rome, a nation that no longer exists.
It was stolen
It was stolen
26:00 his reasoning why the marbles shouldn't return is that HE personally didn't like the architecture of the Akropolis museum. Nobody asked you, Patrice!
@BRIAN WONG Lol really ? That's not the point here. And it could refer to Kappa
@BRIAN WONG Well there aren't "c's" in Greek so he's technically correct...
@BRIAN WONG That's actually closer to the correct transliteration of the word. The Greek word Ἀκρόπολις is usually rendered in the Latin script as 'Acropolis', but a more accurate transliteration would be 'Akrópolis'.
@BRIAN WONG They are actually both equally correct as forms so your argument that this is is not the propert way to be spelled is foiled. It can be spelled both ways as it happens to be possible with many latin languages, english included.
@BRIAN WONG because thtas how they spell this word in greeklish and he propably got confused. It happrens to me many times
This was a fantastic debate, absolutely loved the passionate speech given by Mr. Fry. Made me feel so proud to be of Greek heritage. The Parthenon really is the centrepiece of Athens and when you stand in Athens and look up at it, it takes you back thousands of years. I think the integrity of the building and the culture it represents demands the respect of everybody enjoying the wonders of Western Civilisation today!
It raises the wider question of whether all items held in museums should be returned to their place of origin. Should the Ishtar Gate be returned from Berlin to Iraq, should the Codex Gigas be returned from Stockholm to Prague.... the list is endless and both impractical and impossible. That is why the British Museum is under no moral obligation because huge amounts of the content of the rest of the worlds museums would have to be repatriated.
@@catinthehat906 if it was stolen, it should be send back!
@@catinthehat906 If it’s safe to return them then yes.
So you should be grateful for the cost and work involved in Elgin rescuing them from destruction by the Ottomans
@@TS-gh3xv They weren’t stolen. Elgin bought them legally from the ottomans who at that time were in charge in Greece in order to preserve them from inevitable destruction. You should be GRATEFUL to him
Send the marbles back to Athens
When u steal something u should have to give it back.
Tell Israel that...
@@jamescarr4662 Funny one.
@@jamescarr4662 lol
@@jamescarr4662 Tell me what Israel stole. When you win land in War.....it's yours....from the dawn of Time !
@@nicoangel690 What may have been true at the dawn of time may no longer be. Today, wars of aggression and expansion are illegal under international law. As you surely know, the occupations of Gaza and the West Bank have also been declared violations of international law.
Greeks did care about the marbles. When our forfathers sarrounded the Turcks at the acropolis they started to break the marbels to get lead in order to make bullets. The Greeks offer the Turcks buletts to stop them from destroying the marbles. So they cared, they cared about them more than they lives!
Ap Cris bullshit
Stephen Fry : Thanks mate ... You're right 100% ! P.S. From a Greek citizen ...
Regardless of the fact that I am Greek I have always admired Stephen Fry! He is an amazing human being and I love his way of thinking, his wit, his intelligence, his logic.....Thank you Mr. Fry!
He's a little more Greek than many Greeks, and far more English than your average Englishman. A gem of a man, our national treasure, defending your national treasure :D
You should watch his talk on ancsestry.
Why _regardless_ of being Greek?
Surely _because_
of being Greek would be a more appropriate statement.
Why would being Greek preclude you from admiring another human being? What a weird way of thinking.
@@pseudonayme7717 Elgin defended Greece’s national heritage by saving it from destruction by the Ottomans - at considerable personal difficulty and cost . Greece is so effing ungrateful it makes me want to puke
Thank you Stephen Fry.
I am so pleased to have come across this video and to hear a discussion like this taking place in London. Of course it is time to send them back, they should have never been removed in the first place.... what a savage deed that was. On moral and artistic grounds and in the name of 'Cultural Heritage' The British Museum must do the right thing... the marbles must be reunited with the Parthenon. I believe this is the popular outcry world wide.
The marbles were rescued from destruction by the Ottomans. The Ottomans sold the marbles to Elgin legally and thank goodness they didn’t care much about them and just took the money - but Elgin recognised their importance and wanted to save them. The lack of gratitude for this is staggering and extremely bad mannered
To the gentleman who compared the new Acropolis museum to Stansted airport : of course the British Museum might be more pleasing to the eye. After all it was built in the GREEK Revival style with features from classical GREEK architecture.
Ancient Greece is the progenitor of Western civilisation and Britain was the inheritor. That historical understanding is what made Elgin recognise the importance of the marbles and he struck a deal with the ottomans to remove them before they were destroyed. Perhaps he should have just let them be destroyed. You are so ungrateful, historically ignorant and bad mannered towards the people who saved your historical artefacts from destruction it’s disturbing
I really can’t understand how is this possible the most British are positive to return the marbles and marbles are still there.
I would also like to express my respect for Mr Andrew George! People like Mr Adrew George and Mr Stephen Fry honor their country and the society in general.
Bring the marbles back to where they belong. The new Acropolis museum is their Home, there is special place waiting for them. Please do the right thing, it's our Heritage that was taken from us.
r91976 Bravo the Greeks !
Never they are now British 🤣🤣
@@sc-iu8jq You? Barbarians.... Barbarian is a Greek ancient word that means the language that sounds to our ears like bar.. bar.. bar.. bar..🗣 ( ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ ) 😵 😵😵😵
@@sc-iu8jq Is that what you say about every artifact displayed in the british museums that was stolen?
No your heritage was treated like crap for centuries then rescued by the British who spent money time and effort saving what they could before the Ottomans destroyed everything. A bit more gratitude should be shown frankly.
Stephen Fry should join Tom Hanks on becoming an honorary Greek citizen
Not comparable??? Lmao.
I can't believe the black lady, have you heard of the Armenian Genocide?
You can compare the Ottoman Empire with the Nazis.
Give EVERYTHING back.
Arguments like this make it less likely for anything to be ‘given back’. You’re advocating for the slippery slope argument which Stephen Fry says doesn’t exist,
I think the "slippery slope" they're all so afraid of should be a very serious consideration. The Rosetta stone does in fact belong in Egypt, and all the other items that were procured during colonialism belong to their regions of origin. If the artifacts were treated morally, the British Museum would definitely lose a huge portion of the works inside (and other museums around the world.)
Eventually though, these actions would inspire better relationships and dialogues between cultures, and once moral ownership was reestablished, the topics of loaning and touring could be addressed. I'm absolutely in favour of a cosmopolitan, encyclopedic museum concept... and I think that there are a huge amount of artworks and artifacts around the world that can lend to this concept. These museums need to be less clingy to what's in their collections right now. There's a very shortsighted mentality that just seems to scream "mine mine mine" like they're so desperate not to lose these things.
In order to support the cosmopolitan museum concept, there MUST be a positive relationship established between all the cultures that the works originate from. Once the relationship is there, then the proper and morally legal transactions of selling or loaning the works can take place.
Trying to keep such works that are in such a shady situation is just going to make you look bad. I agree with Stephen Fry, that the act of returning the marbles (and other works) would make the British Museum look very good.
And, like seriously... people these days can make such good replicas, there could still be a "Parthenon Marbles" display for people to view, and then just a disclaimer that the originals are back in Athens. Hell, most of the pieces you see in the museums aren't even the real thing anyways! The real works are usually tucked in the back so they won't get damaged.... So what's the point of keeping the originals? It's just a stupid ego issue that doesn't serve anyone.
Yes! How does this not get discussed more in the comments? The Benin Bronzes clearly belong back in Nigeria too
Send them back: The Parthenon Marbles should be returned to Athens 0859am 5.12.23 indeed. this situation is enough to bring various academics to the brink of nervous exhaustion and/or a mental breakdown... i bet a few high-minded chaps have died worrying about them going back...
26:12 Is this man really claiming, that the Acropolis meseum, that has been globaly awarded for its design and its treatment of our precious works of art that once plated the Parthenon and the rest of the Acropolis, that has been ranked in the top 10 museums in the world consistantly since 2012, isn't fit enough to handle OUR marbles, cause he didn't like the architecture?
Not your marbles. Sold legally to Elgin by the Ottomans who ruled Greece at the time then rescued and preserved in Britain to prevent them being destroyed forever and giving you nothing to whine about. You’re welcome.
Elgin did an act of Vandalism by looting Parthenon , so this action cannot be justified by any argument of denying the cosmopolitan image of the British museum or denying the spread of historic knowledge . Elgin actually Destroyed one Caryatid in order to remove and stole the Caryatid that is in British museum nowdays . Elgin put in its place a huge stone in order the monument not fall down . Such acts of Vandalism and Barbarism cannot be justified by anything .
What excavation? The marbles were taken from the building. It was not an excavation. Elgin's workers climbed on the top of the Parthenon and hammered them off. One sculpture even felt down from the hight and smashed into tiny marble pieces.
How do you know, were you there? And besides, time was of the essence - the Ottomans were a military force intent on destroying any ‘idolatrous’ artefacts. If Elgin had not moved fast none of the marbles would have survived at all. Greece should be GRATEFUL that Elgin preserved an artefact when the Greeks were in no position to.
@@mogznwaz I know it because Elgin documented the entire operation. The ottomans conquered Athens in 1458. They had plenty time to destroy those "idols" before Elgin was even born. And they did not destroy what Elgin left behind either such as the remaining metopes of the Parthenon or the caryatides of the nearby temple. We are not grateful. Thanks.
@@mogznwaz ok, so now GIVE THEM BACK!
The real thing is money. If the Greek and Egyptian collections are gone. Do you know how many tourists they will lose?
FJ Kong the museums are free
@@Uppernorwood976 The museums are free but travelling and staying in the country isn't. Even if the museum is free, those who travel to see artifacts and the like will stay in England and spend money. Tourism equals money
@@giorgosx5838Its not just tourism, museums get huge wealthy donors, hell the British museum has a please donate box almost like every 10 meters for the visitors.
We must note the fact that at the Olympics games opening ceremony instead of Great William Shakespeare, King Arthour and things about the history of England, England chose to show in front of millions of people Mr Bean, JAmes bond the queen the prince/princes, some rave electronics stupid parties in the club and cyber chatting sex stuff and facebook! So who wants to speak about history and how appreciate it?
EXACTLY!!!
I think they already did the history theme before though
Spice Girls !
Everyone knows about Shakespeare already. Because the British have the most successful and globally influential culture in history. If there are any criticisms it’s that Britain has been colonised by a left wing mindset that celebrates ‘diversity’ and ‘modernity’ because apparently that’s always better. Not in my eyes of course. But in the eyes of the kinds of virtue signallers who demand things like the return of the legally acquired marbles
As far as I know when Elgin (he was nor is not my Lord) was given the marbles he pried them off their place and many of them fell from the the friezes to the ground many meters below and were damaged, and even more so than the ones left there… Many were lost and some abandoned to their fate in Italy.. How can anybody argue "responsibility" ? Pillage rather… Then there is the question of price. How much did he bribe the Turk who was in charge of Athens. The argument that this was a legitimate purchase is as well utterly ridiculous. If the Greek revolution and liberation from the Turks was recognized and applauded by the whole world it was not a legitimate occupation therefore there can be no legitimate sale..During the Nazi occupation of France there was a French Vichi government. Had they sold part of the Tuilleries would that be legitimate? A piece of art was broken in pieces not by an accident, not by a war but by a pillaging act by Elgin. He was not stupid. He knew perfectly well that the Turks were not the legal owners nor did they care for the Parthenon… He did not go there to save the marbles else he would have taken good care of them. He was an opportunist as was Colonialism minded England at the time. The professor and the historian should go back to school and learn Ethics and Logic and History. They lack dramatically in that respect.
That was the exact way he pried the sculptures off the wall. No respect for the art,or the age of the sculptures....
You weren’t there so you are speaking from a position of ignorance based on tittle tattle. The fact is that Elgin struck a deal with the Ottomans which allowed him to rescue as much of the marbles as he could before they were destroyed. The Ottomans were known to destroy anything they considered idolatrous- just like the Taliban who destroyed the Buddha statues in Afghanistan
The Ottomans were the ones in power therefore were in the position to allow or deny the sale. The fact is if Elgin had not removed as much as he could they would have been destroyed. The Ottomans conquered Greece, modern definitions of legal or illegal ‘occupation’ did not apply - and even if they did Elgin could not strike a deal with the Greeks who were in no position to deny or grant such a request. The historical revisionism and arguing from emotion are signs of low IQ and brainwashing by leftist universities.
The fact that you think an actor with a posh voice knows more than a professor and an historian says a lot about you
@@mogznwaz huh? The ottomans agreed to let lord Elgin rescue what they didn’t care about? Oxymoron here
Today in Amphipolis a Royal Macedon tomb is being excavated. On top of this tomb there was a statue of a Lion, which at some point in time it was moved to another place, near the tomb. During the 2st Balkan Wars, Greek soldiers caught a group of British soldiers *who were trying* to load the staute of the Lion on a British ship, with destination a Museum in Great Britain. Most possibly the British Museum. *This is how historically the British Empire treated CULTURALLY* those who were in their darkest moments. This policy and way of thinking can't be *justified nor continue* in the 21st century...
franknwalters WELL SAID!
Brits have always made up their own rules of theft and this is why they lost their country to the Arabs, Afghanis, Africans, Pakistanis, the same ones they once occupied and now they are not occupying they just took over of what is left of England.
The British have excavated more sites and translated more documents and inscriptions than anybody - you wouldn't know who anyone was before George Washington without them.
Having been to the acropolis I felt a deep sense of shame that my country denies Greece these cultural important sculptures. Send then back now.
They should have protected them better. Neglected for centuries, let the Ottomans destroy loads, the only way they survived was because Elgin recognised their importance and saved them before they were gone forever by holding his nose and buying them from the Ottoman rulers when the Greeks were in no position to . The Greeks should be showing far more gratitude for that frankly. If they did I think conversations about returning them would get a better reception. Calling us thieves and colonisers is just simply insulting untrue and not how to influence the outcome. If you want them either pay for them or come and get them if you dare .
Holy cow, Stephen Fry dominated the other side.
Stephen Fry is an actor arguing from emotion. Don’t confuse that with actual argument.
@@mogznwaz No, the emotional non-argument comes from the pointless British nationalist side that refuses to send back artifacts to their countries of origin. We know your museums would be near empty without those ill-gotten gains, but that's not our problem.
respect to Stephen Fry.This is the all truth and more many more.greece was occupied from turkey for 400 years.But he survive.But nothing were finished there, germany and franch attack to greece and then germany occupied greece for years.Now greece is in economic crisis but he will survive like at old ages.THIS IS GREECE
and i say it only with respect.
Greece has had its fair share of upheaval. All the more reason to acknowledge that Elgin bought the marbles from the Ottomans before they were destroyed. The Greeks should be very grateful
The argumentation for sending them back was full of progress, imagination, friendship. The opposition used what ifs, deflection, legalities and defensiveness. Perhaps there are good arguments to keep them but if there is, they never used them.
Everyone feels defensive nowadays about asserting historical truths about the British empire that are not fashionable today. The fact is that Elgin saved the marbles from destruction by the Ottomans at a time when the Greeks could not. They should be more grateful frankly
so many gaslighting done by the people who do not want to return the Parthenon marbles back to Greece.
Today, the only argument for keeping the Greek Marbles in the British Museum lies inside an excel sheet, the one for tourism, where you can see numbers with a £ symbol next to them.
The argument about having obtained the marbles 'legally' is flimsy as it chooses to apply a false notion of 'sovereignty' to the Ottoman sultan. The sultan who sold these marbles was only in the 'sovereign' position to sell them because his forebears had invaded, conquered and subjugated the Greek people by force 350 years before. He was not in any way a legal representative of the people, the culture, or the peoples' will - he was their oppressor. Ask yourself this. Would the sultan have ever sold marbles from the Blue Mosque or Topkapi to a visiting Englishman? Would a sovereign Greek ruler have ever sold the Parthenon marbles?
"Would a sovereign Greek ruler have ever sold the Parthenon Marbles?"
Do you mean a Greek CHRISTIAN ruler whose government had seized a pagan temple? ...That's like asking whether the prime minister of Italy can sell pieces of the Vatican, or whether an Indian Mughal ruler can sell bits and sculpture work of Hindu temples.
So, what if a Communist government of Italy were using the seized Vatican as an ammunition magazine? ...Could Christians from abroad RESCUE its treasures by buying them from a hostile Communist government and transporting the pieces to their own museums? ...That's more like what in fact happened with regard to the Elgin Marbles. The Greek CHRISTIANS hardly valued them any more than the Turks. The Greeks of the early 19th Century had to be taught to value their classical heritage by the classically-educated Western European teachers. ...They even had to be taught that they were "Hellenes" and not "Romaioi".
MrJm323 Disrespectful piece of shit and disgusting robber shut your mouth. Your cheap propaganda not persuade anyone.
But that's answering to a completely different thing. I was refuting the defense of Elgins' actions as 'legal', a favorite Museum position. They were not for reasons mentioned. Now you come along with this other position about salvaging treasure from certain harm - ironically by causing more harm than was prevented and leaving behind a relic that plainly bears the marks of that harm. Appreciate the effort, I guess. We will have them back now and you can have the copies we have in Athens, thank you very much.
As to the boneheaded rest of your point about classical appreciation. It's true that it begins with Western Europe, or let's say it does. Advances made in the field by Brits, Germans and others are immeasurable, I have nothing but admiration. But since you want to be a prick about it, fine. Walk by a London bank. What does it look like? That's right, a Greek temple. Greeks left behind for the Brits not only treasures to try and salvage or imitate, they gave them the very notion of a classical education by which to know their value.
"...answering to a completely different thing"?!? What? I answered your last question DIRECTLY. "Would a sovereign Greek ruler have ever sold the Parthenon marbles?" ....Does a Greek CHRISTIAN ruler who even disavows the identity as a "Hellene" have a greater (or lesser) claim on those marbles than a Turkish Muslim ruler? ....Or a nominally Christian Englishman, such as Elgin? ...(And, I remind you that Elgin and his peers were only NOMINALLY Christian because they've leavened their Christianity with ancient Greco-Roman humanism - which was the humanist legacy of the Renaissance on their educations. Something the Greeks didn't have at the time. ....Gee, they might make them MORE worthy of the Marbles, spiritually and morally speaking, than the other two claimants, mightn't it?)
I'm "a prick" because I point out to you that the "Latin" West RESCUED THE ANCIENT GREEK LEGACY and handed it back to the Greeks in the late 19th century?!? ....If a London bank has classical architectural motifs, it's because the WEST appreciated the Greek classical legacy, and NOT the Greeks (at the beginning of the 19th century).
....Oh, the Greeks - the CHRISTIAN Rhomaioi - "left behind" this legacy, you say? ....They threw most of it ....INTO THE LIME KILNS !!!! ...This is why most of the classical marble statuary we have today are Roman copies (or statues which the Romans thankfully PLUNDERED during their initial conquests of Greece) which have been recovered from places like Pompeii, etc. (Some of it has been recovered from the sea floor. And a few statues have been dug up in Greece or Asia Minor.)
The Parthenon on the Acropolis, like the Pantheon in Rome, was preserved because those buildings were converted into churches. This spared them for a while. When the Turks took control of Athens, they used the Parthenon as a store house for GUNPOWDER!! ...THAT is the reason for most of its damage, you fucking idiot! ...The Greeks - oops! Sorry! "Rhomaioi" - weren't even in a position to protect their legacy. Hardly any Greeks by the late Second Millennium A.D. had any real appreciation of this legacy anyway. (They were still medieval Christians, untouched by any Renaissance, or "rebirth" of the classical Greek heritage.)
No, Bodhidharma, it wasn't the Christian Rhomaioi who bequeathed the classical educational ideal upon the Western Europeans; it was the West Europeans themselves who re-discovered this legacy from the ancient Greco-Roman world (with much help from Arab scholars and, yes, a few Greek scholar-refugees from the collapsing Byzantine world - Greek scholars who went under-appreciated in Byzantium itself and were more appreciated in Florence, Padua, Venice and Rome than by their fellow Greeks - I mean, Rhomaioi). If ANY modern-day Greek appreciates this heritage, it is because 19th century West Europeans (mainly from Germany, France, Britain, and Italy) TAUGHT them to re-appreciate this heritage.
...I'll tell you what, maybe the British can make some copies of these Marbles, and send those to the Acropolis museum in Athens. The Greeks are not so stupid as to want to put the ORIGINAL Marbles back up on the actual Parthenon, do they? (Where they would be exposed to the atmospheric pollution?) ....No. The Marbles, whether in London or in Athens will be in a climate-controlled museum. Copies would work just as good! You can go to the Albert & Victoria Museum (in London) and see superior-looking copy of marble reliefs from Trajan's Column than you would see on the actual Column in Rome (because of the pollution damage to the reliefs on the actual column).
...I'm sorry, but there's just no SUFFICIENT reason to move the Elgin Marbles to Athens. They are fine right where they are at! If the British have ANY BACKBONE, they will successfully resist demands to return them. You don't see the Italians returning all of their "acquisitions" from the sack of Constantinople of 1204, do you? Those four horses at St. Mark's Basilica, in Venice, which used to grace the Hippodrome in Constantinople, they are not going back, are they? ....And, a lot of other goodies from Constantinople - you don't hear anything about that, do you? They are staying where they are at! Because the Italians won't entertain the idea of "returning" them! ...The only reason Greeks keep harping on these Marbles is because of a gaggle of self-hating Brits joining in the chorus to plunder the museum collections of Great Britain to "restore" the artifacts and anthropological remains to where they were dug up or liberated from.
In most cases, these items were dug up in places where the natives were not in a position to care for them, or they under-appreciated them, or just plain didn't care about their existence. They didn't appreciate the value of these things until the British (or German or French) scholars, anthropologists, or archaeologists discovered or re-discovered them and explained the significance of the relevant items! ...Only then do they shout, "Give those things back!" These things have VALUE to humanity because of the work of these very same scholars and scientists who are accused of "plundering" them. The persons who appreciate the value of these things, and can show the rest of humanity the SIGNIFICANCE of these items to our heritage, and can demonstrate the ability to conserve them - THEY are the ones most deserving of keeping them - NOT people whose only claim to these items is merely that they are the blood descendants of the creators of those artifacts (but forgot their value and significance later, and were neglecting them).
ETHNIC IDENTITY is not the basis of ownership claims on artifacts or even ancient human remains. (Edit to add: If the ancient human remains are beyond the memory of your family or community, then your claim of custody over those remains is baseless. The competent scientist who can give those remains historical significance - and thus value to the knowledge of humanity - has the stronger claim to those human remains. You wouldn't have known about them or what they really were until the competent scientist came along and explained their identity and significance.)
Rather it is the scholars and scientists who can discover and explain to the rest of humanity the VALUE of those items, the historical and scientific SIGNIFICANCE of these items, and can also most successfully CONSERVE these items for posterity, ...who are most deserving to have POSSESSION of those items as a trust for the benefit of human knowledge and inspiration.
When THAT is the standard in determining who has the right to possess them, then the argument for returning them to Athens simply lacks merit.
Please. You're either too young and immature or have a tremendously poor grasp of history, both the history of the Greco-Roman East in particular and how history takes its shape in general. In either case there's no reason for you to be going on with these tirades.
Yes, it was the Byzantine Greek scholars fleeing the fall of Constantinople, carrying with them what they could salvage from the libraries of Constantinople, who ignited the passion with classical lore in the West of Europe. The University of Constantinople (let's not forget, the largest and most prestigious of its kind in Europe for centuries) housed for example the most comprehensive collection of Aristotle's writings Europe had seen. It figures. Greek-speaking scholars would have been the best equipped to copy and preserve the work. The only Aristotle West Europe had seen before that time were the Arabic commentaries of Avicenna.
Western Europeans 're-discovered the legacy of ancient Greece' because Greeks had continuously preserved and curated that legacy for a few hundred years, even while, yes, simultaneously differing between themselves about what that legacy meant, because, surprise, that is how society and identity work.
Did every single Greek peasant in medieval Athens swell with pride at the sight of the Parthenon or identified themselves as direct descendants of Socrates? But that's neither here nor there. They didn't have to. An American from Mississippi of the 1870s, 1920s or 1980s might see Lincoln as tyrant and Washington DC as monument to his oppression but that makes neither him nor a Northerner from Boston any less part of the same society of peoples.
The rest of your points are flimsy. No, you do not deserve to keep the Marbles because a British aristo lopped them off with the trivial consent of a foreign occupying force. No, the world did not sit on its thumbs waiting for traveling Brits to point out to them the importance of their cultural legacy. But some countries have been luckier than others and managed to avoid invasion, plunder, ruin and systemic oppression for a few centuries.History took this, that and the other turn, producing the world as it has come to be.
I understand the difficulty of precedent for the Museum and personally am fine with the Marbles staying in either place. But the mental gymnastics performed by the likes of you in the attempt to delegitimize modern day Greeks as custodians of their own history would be laughed out of any room.
And i ask you British protectors of the Ancient Greek History.... IF the marbles owner was the United States of America, would this video , this debate exist???? I'm waiting for your answers.
There are American paintings in the British Museum,stop pretending the ancients have anything to do with you.You have more in common with your Turkish masters.
The Americans didn't ask them back did they? You do not answer my question. I am not Greek, i am American.
Sylvester-The Piano Man
thank you for your support. Unfortunately, its quite obvious to me that the actual reason for not sending the marbles back to where they belong has to do with money. If they send them back, its pretty sure that other requests from countries will follow too, so eventually the museum will start to lose glow and money.. Money is always a serious reason., i cant disagree. But a priceless piece of civilization is even more serious and it will always be. And yes, if the owner was the USA and not "weak" Greece, the marbles would have already been returned. Thanks. Nick (the Greek)
***** why don't you answer to Sylvester's question?cause you have nothing to say and you got owned?first you say your nonsense to look cool and then you don't answer to a simple question?i will answer for you.if Americans were to ask for their paintings to be returned to America, Great Britain would have given them back in the next day.but since we Greeks aren't as powerful as Americans are, Great Britain says "fuck off, we don't give them back".if you come see these marbles in our museum their view is going to be thousand times better and more astonishing than the cold grey background view you see in the British Museum
And... yes, i am still waiting for an answer. None? Is there ANYBODY that has a straight answer to my question?
Well, let's split Stonehenge to many different museums in different countries. It would be safer and also would serve the international ideas that were mentioned by the side which was against the return of the Parhtenon marbles.
If Stonehenge had been sold by the Romans to another country, now that would be an actual proper analogy.
Cold is the heart, fair Greece, that looks on thee,
Nor feels as lovers oer the dust they loved;
Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behovd
To guard those relics neer to be restored.
Curst be the hour when their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatchd thy shrinking Gods to northern climes abhorrd. Lord Byron.
The Greek Ministry of Culture addressed a request to the British Museum for the return of the Parthenon Sculptures to Greece. Once again, the British showed us how much they hate Greece and the Greeks. Their museum, with the audacity of an occupier and pirate state, replied NO: "The British Museum has no intention of removing controversial sections from the public exhibition." What does the British Museum mean? Did the British create these sculptures or set out to distort history because of globalization? Shame on them. God sees and will judge them accordingly.
Then the marbles....Now the Macedonia!!I feel angry about what other coutries did to a peaceful country with a brilliant history and people... The country that NEVER attack other country in the new history.They know only what defensive war is because they fought for freedom .The country who saved europe with their resistance to Nazis!!Million dead Greeks died for freedom and justice and nobody paid about these crimes.. STAY STRONG GREECE...AS ALWAYS!!!!!!!
Our flag literally means "Freedom or Death"
plain logic says that as long as Greece has the infrastructure to keep the marbles safe (which is done, it is the new acropolis museum) then i dont see anything wrong to have them back here in Athens.They can use copies in UK for example like in Nashville, Tennessee where they have built a nice copy of the parthenon. :)
The British Museum has many stolen artifacts from all over the world, including (if I am not mistaken) the Benin Bronzes which the people and government of Benin have petitioned for the return of for years but no one seems to want to debate or publicize this because it’s an African country being taken advantage of. Sad.
I am Greek that was in London a few years ago, they had a whole leaflet in the room trying to justify it.Still have it.Anyway I am mostly watching this because I love Fry.The boy in the end was the best in the room.Some things are simple,yet still nothing has been done.
Arrived here due to Covid 19. I thoroughly enjoyed the debate and was personally very pleased the end result was a unanimous vote for returning the artefacts back to Greece. However, having lost every artistic, historical, moral and legal argument over the subsiding years, the pompous arrogance of Empire and colonialism prevails. The British Museum and British scholars must do the only honourable thing, this lengthy provocation is an embarrassment and an ethical sadness to culture, international friendship and democracy.
What a class act from Steven Fry
"Oh look at me I'm coming down to speak among the people--I'm one of you not one of them" This Armesto Professor is like a wannabe politician. Stephen Fry's expressions perfectly mirrored mine.
He was a poor representative. Perhaps deliberately so, so strong is the need to virtue signal in academia
Stephen Fry nailed it!!!
THE GREEKS HAD A FECKING EMPIRE TOO. The marbles represent the colonial wealth and grandeur of the Greek empire. How does that figure in your virtue signalling? The Parthenon was built by slaves - pretty much like everything else in the ancient world. And the only reason you think that was bad is BECAUSE THE BRITISH EMPIRE WAS THE FIRST IN HISTORY TO MAKE THAT PROFOUNDLY MORAL LEAP. The ingratitude and historical illiteracy is staggering.
@@mogznwaz are you freaking serious? Should we thank you that you STOLE our stuff??? GTFO , you should embarrased, you thieves.
But i see you dont mention the colinazation by british. Did those countries had prosperity under your boot or they were just slaves to british empire and stole their natural resources (see India). Get lost because i have so much more to tell and roast your beer drunk arse. THIEEEVES.....
I doubt that the Elgin marbles would still exist in their current form if it weren't for Lord Elgin and the British. That being said, I think that the marbles should be sent back to Athens as a cultural gift. And while you're at it, send back Egyptian artifacts and mummies to Egypt, Indian artifacts and skeletons to the tribes from which they were taken, etc., etc.
There is a lot more that could be changed in the relations between nations, but this would be a nice start.
Why do you believe this myth? the remaining sculptures that were not looted look in pretty good condition to me, you don't have to take my word for it go and see them in the Acropolis Museum
Peregrine1946 so you mean, give us OUR heritage back, that elgin stole, as a cultural gift? are you high?? get that into your thick head. They are STOLEN, they shouldn't be here. Get another thing into your thick head: how dare you say they wouldn't exist when it was elgin who first damaged them?? he CUT THEM OFF the Parthenon. Enough with this stupid crap. Another idiot said elgin excavated them!!!! You don't even know how the Parthenon is, what was on it, where the Marbles were, you think they were some separate item, that's how little you know about the subject and still you want to open your big mouths and talk about the heritage OF ANOTHER NATION. Bigoted idiots. WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE????REALLY??? Who appointed you policemen of the Greek antiquities?? if they were worthless and did not generate any revenue for you you'd have given them back by now, so don't bullshit us that you care about whether the Marbles exist or not or the state they're in. FUCK OFF, they were made by Greeks, they've got nothing to do with you. If Greeks hadn't made them, you wouldn't have made them either, they wouldn't exist, so GET OUT OF THE WAY!!
Xenia d Actually, I've walked the hill where the Parthenon stands and I've been to the Tate; I have always loved Greece. Perhaps you'd have rather relied upon the kindness of the Turks when they were breaking down the marbles for their armament? If you'd read what I wrote, rather than have reacted out of anger and emotion at someone who doesn't agree with you, you'd have seen that I believe these beautiful images should be returned to Greece, where they of course belong.
This does not excuse your crude rudeness, however.
your stupid talk incites anger, you do it on purpose and are provocative, so fuck off.
Xenia d you really need to calm down.. Making ridiculous sweeping statements doesn't do much for your cause.
Oh, how convenient that cosmopolitism lives in London, it seems.
I'm British and have been o the British museum a couple of time in my life. I can't remember seeing the marbles. I'm sure they're fantastic and very important but to the average Brit it would make absolutely no difference if they were moved back to Greece.
the elgin marbles should be returned for further restoration of the parthenon
If the Greeks asked nicely I think we’d be open to it. But telling lies and calling us thieves when we are not, makes us not want to do it.
"I urge you to be moved by the marbles" is literately the most amazing quote ever
a good quote has been known to get people to accept ideas with unintended consequences. So if the marbles go back what are you going to do with everything on the British Museum ? Or the Commonwealth... How about Northern Ireland ? You see where this is going ?
How many things have Englishmen sold from their colonies ? Do the current owners now have to return them ?
Sounds good on paper but as soon as you go down that road, by your own admission of historical guilt over an act you had nothing to do with, you now owe me money. Indians want their gems, Canadians want their beaver pelts and a million Irishmen want their lives back.
We will drive ourselves insane trying to right the wrongs of the past.
The only way forward is to forgive and forget. Live in the past if you want but I will expect my payment if everybody else is getting one.
@@seanfaherty I say that the EU blockades the UK until they give the marbles back and they stop occ*pying part of Cyprus. The British are the reason why Turkey inv*ded Cyprus in the first place.
@@seanfaherty Είσαι Μαλάκας.
Emotionally incontinent virtue signalling. Elgin bought the marbles legally from the Ottomans and prevented their destruction. You can only whine about the marbles today BECAUSE ELGIN SAVED THEM
@@mogznwaz They would also most likely exist today without Elgin just like the Parthenon. Look at the rest of the Parthenon which wasn’t taken by Elgin, it still exists
Stephen Fry has my absolute respect! What a perfect speech that was! The Parthenon marbles will sooner or later return to their birthplace, to Athens, their place of origin.
the argument about these particular sculptures is as intense as it is because it represents the last vestiges of British colonial arrogance.
The patronizing arguments given to support the retention of these stolen goods is revolting to me. and I'm English by birth.
Mr. Fry's speech was incredible! He didn't even take a sneak peek at any papers, he just KNEW what was right and and couldn't do otherwise but just argue with the true facts.
He didn't refer to facts because this is an argument based on emotion.
Facts say if you send back one thing you will have to send back everything.
I'll be waiting for my fiver
@@seanfaherty Yeah, I think his speech was oratorically very good, but there's very little argument of substance in it. It's emotion dressed up in words. He doesn't do it to as an extreme degree such as some of the people in the audience (e.g. the lady), but I was surprised to see how many commenters were actually convinced by him.
@@seanfaherty Είσαι Μαλάκας.
I’m so glad other commenters recognise Fry’s speech for what it is - emotionally incontinent, historically illiterate virtue signalling. The marbles would not exist today if Elgin hadn’t recognised their importance and struck a deal with the Ottomans to remove them before they were DESTROYED. The Greeks should be grateful to Britain for preserving their history when they themselves could not.
Have you seen the newer Museum of the Acropolis ? It's freaking great
Agreed
I always found it odd that they would call these marbles and so many other plunderedtreasures by the names of their thieves.
NOT thieves. Elgin bought the marbles legally from the ruling power of the time. This historical revisionism and ignorance needs to be challenged because I’m sick of it. Go read some actual history books instead of whining about historical realities.
The Pathernon marble sculptures belong to Greece 🇬🇷, return them!
Nothing like proudly displaying the stuff you stole from other places. Must feel nice
Parthenon is a building and a building it is not meant to be moved. You can't move the Stonehenge or the Big Ben to an another country it was build for the British and the rest of the world to adore them in Great Britain and so was the Parthenon, it was build by the Greeks for the Greeks and the rest of the world to adore it on top of the Acropolis hill in Greece.
London Bridge is in Arizona.
If the Romans had moved Stonehenge from Britain to Rome it would now be part of Roman history as much as ours - and you know it
@@omnipitous4648 And as a Brit I think that’s a hilarious and interesting story from history - we don’t need it back thanks
It was built for the glory of the GREEK EMPIRE and built by slaves
Tristan Hunt comes off as disingenuous, and not of someone who is emotionally invested in his position in the slightest. His constant chuckling is laced with an air of arrogance. For all his dismissal of nationalism, what other reason would he have other than Anglo-centric nationalist aspirations. He's arguing in favour of the "British" Museum after all.
His demeanour is one of indifference and ridicule. His lack of understanding about the marbles significance to the Greeks is best illustrated when he compares the Parthenon marbles to fancy British teacups and plates. In the same breath, he heaps praise on the Greek's abilities and manages to mumble an insult about Athenian smog. (Smog over Athens has all but been eradicated in the last decade. Even in the dead of August Summer heat, the skies over Athens are almost always blue. They radiate with 300 days of sunshine every year.)
As for Felipe Armesto's slurred babblings... His false assertion that Modern Greece is unrelated to Ancient Greece is offensive and reveals a veiled disdain and dismissal of modern greek society. He's attempting to undermine and strip the Greeks of their achievements and culture through his retoric and his denial of the Marble's restitution.
...so true...
...by the way...try telling the Chinese or the Hindu's, the Mexicans or the Jews or Iranians or ANY other ancient culture ... that they have nothing to do with their ancestors...lol...this guy seems to forget about EVOLUTION of cultures and languages and art etc....
...
Give them back they don't belong to England, they are part of a country that has been around for thousands & thousands of years, have respect it is appalling, this is not legal to keep them doesn't matter what ever excuses they come up with.
I can tell you most assuredly that Greece as a country has *not* existed for thousands of years
Keeping a pillaged artwork that is clearly wanted back, just reeks of the worst parts of old Britain.
The time of empire was what it was, you can’t change history but you can repeat it.
Holding onto the Marbles signals a country stuck looking backwards, instead of accepting change and moving with it.
Host said: "but the Ottoman Empire governed their lands with a light touch".
Excuse me!?
Tell it to these guys - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Tower
A great debate settled on the side of justice. This gives me hope for this world.
Not justice. Emotion.
Honestly, the Britain Government is looking like a petulant child in this ongoing debate between two historically friendly countries who fought together in two world wars.
No. Greece is being the petulant child trying to get something back that is long lost to them thanks to the Ottomans who sold them legally to Elgin (and it is fortunate that they were as they would probably have been destroyed otherwise like so much else was under Ottoman rule - take that up with Turkey). If Greece wants them back they need to drop the self righteousness and insults. Or they can pay to reacquire them. Or they can invade Britain and take them as war booty. The Mona Lisa is in the Louvre not in Rome. London Bridge is in Arizona not in London. The original Winnie the Pooh is in New York. And so on and so on. The British Museum is really the museum of the world and has saved so much from destruction - it educates millions of people about the importance of Ancient Greece to Britain and to western civilisation.
This makes me think of the stone of scone argument. It was returned to Scotland, right? It is obvious on the face of it that the marbles were stolen and need to be returned. Copies can be made in a full exhibit as Stephen suggested.
The marbles were NOT stolen they were bought legally from the Ottomans who were the ruling power. Why not criticise them for selling them?? And if Elgin hadn’t done so they would no longer exist because the Ottomans destroyed idolatrous artefacts .
Return the stolen Marbles back to their birthplace. At last show some respect to the country that created 2500 years ago the modern Western Civilisation!!!
100% send them back. These are the artifacts of a people who are still around today. Their culture may have changed some, but its not like the English or Turkish who are a different people today than 2000 years ago. They're asking for *their* artifacts back.