Nikon Z9 Initial Thoughts from a Bird Photographer
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- Updated with using firmware version 2.1 at this video • Final Thoughts in the ...
I share my thoughts on using the Nikon Z9 for bird photography over the past couple of weeks, including showing footage through the viewfinder of how the camera tracks using 3d tracking and animal-eye/bird-eye detection.
See my final thoughts on the Z9 after using it for over 6 months here • Almost Final Thoughts ...
Also watch this additional video for more on the close subject focus issue with mirrorless cameras. • Close Subject Focus Is...
I use the 3d tracking as a single point AF mode and it is equally as good as the single point in grabbing the subject from my experience. Still sucks compared to the Dslr like you demonstrated. the one thing the AF does incredibly well is track the birds in flight regardless of where it is in frame especially in video mode. I'd say 100% better than the Z6ii and maybe 50% more than the D850. Either way, It is definitely the best camera Nikon has ever made.
Yeah I've definitely had far better results with BIF than my D4s. What do you mean by 3d tracking as a single point? Is there a way to change the initial acquisition point 3d tracking uses?
@@RayHennessy I think he might be using the tracking box as a single point to acquire focus and then letting it do it's tracking thing. You can do something like that on the Z6ii also but obviously I think the Z6ii AF is inferior in every way to the Z9 ... in my experience the Z6ii doesn't even compare to a D850's tracking mode so I can't imaging it could hold up to a Z9 at all.
Excellent honest and balanced review - Thank You. Ian (UK)
Thank you for the honest test and your experiences.
My pleasure!
Nice honest review. Good job Ray!👍
Thanks
A great honest review, thanks!
Awesome review Ray it was honest and straight to the point.
Thanks.
You need to watch Hudson Henry’s setup guide for the Z 9 especially his bank B autofocus settings. You can have the shutter button set to wide area AF and in custom settings have the AF On button set up for both AF and 3D tracking and it overrides the shutter button.
I have my D500 set up like that for BIF (without the 3D tracking of course). Even though I prefer BBF, it’s like having a hybrid set up.
Ron, I've watched Hudson Henry's setup and his Hybrid mode shooting was something I took to heart (because I need three focus modes quickly available - single point, Wide area Large, and 3D). For me, so far, and my type of wildlife shooting (birds mostly) I find that my muscle memory does better with Wide area large mapped to back button and single point to Fn1 (two quick lock on modes) and 3D tied to the half press shutter (something I've never done in the past). For me, typically, WAL or Single point will catch focus, but not always. As Ray mentions, I've had to manually rack focus more than a handful of times when the lens just won't focus on a subject in front of me. All this said, the Z9 for me has been amazing and while probably not as sticky as Canon, I've been able to capture a very high keeper rate of BIF images that I could not do on my DSLR because of two things, black out and autofocus. Now, if you are fast enough, you can frame the shot as well. Birds at the edge of the frame are in focus as well (and that is something you couldn't recover with a DSLR either.
Thanks for the suggestion, I've already got buttons mapped to different focus modes which I've been doing for a while on the Z6ii, which is certainly a nice feature.
@@RayHennessy Can you give an example how you did it on the Z6 II? Wich buttons and wich AF or AF-Area modes you programm? Thanks in advance
@@dance2jam I set the focus button on the lens to somewhere near, I found this works for the situation where the camera is focussed on the background and not seeing the bird.
Thank you for your honest review. My overall experience with the camera so far has been positive coming from a nikon d500 and d750. Love the 20 fps for action and the blackout free VF.
Amen
Nice! I have mine set to 5fps most of the time, the 20 seems nuts hahaha. But sometimes if I'm shooting action I could see the use.
Great review man I appreciate your insight on this camera.
Thanks Brad
wow...Thanks a ton for this video. Quite helpful in deciding between Z9 & D6
Sure thing.
Great sharing of initial observations on using Z9...i have similar experiences with my Z9/200-500mm for bird photography (in winter Canada), especially water level shots with ripple distractions, and also branches distraction for locking focus in trees. Looking forward to more of your content, Ray.
Neil, I alluded to this above in one of my first comments. I have to keep three AF modes at the ready. Single point on Fn1, WA-L on AF-On, and 3D with half button shutter release. You're correct, 3D can jump to the water (eye in water or elsewhere) and WA-L can jump to the poorly defined eye in the water despite a nice eye on the bird (unless you keep the box above the water line). So yes, these are the quirky issues that still have to be resolved.
@Photo Bunny Okay, you have my attention and appreciate the answer. My issue with Wide Area (any size) - which works great for me as well - is that sometimes I want quick focus on a bird in between branches in a tree (for a static shot) and then have 3D track it if it flies off. Single point does better for me here than Wide Area S/L which tends to get distracted by branches. Now I get the way you've set your function buttons up except for Fn1. I understand the shutter speed 1/3200 but I'm not sure what you have programmed there? 3D? and what is on your Back button? Thanks for your setup. I'm always experimenting and appreciate the time you took to explain it.
@Photo Bunny Thanks. I'm going to check out your suggestions (always enjoy trying on new ways of doing something). As for DX mode, I use it mainly to get better exposure reading and quicker focus if it is needed. How do and why do you like Capture One compared to LR/PS?
Wonderful suggestions from everyone for different ways to map the focus methods and I'm sure as I continue I'll get better and better with the camera and figuring out what works well!
Hey Ray, it's cool to see you have the Z9 and you didn't complain about it being heavy and bulky, it's a pro body with a built-in vertical grip! What would you expect....
I do admit the jittery image would drive me nuts I do hope that could be changed in a update. Great first thoughts I am looking forward to hearing how you feel in a few weeks. Greg
Thanks man, yeah haha, complaining about the size would be super strange! The jumpy image is odd but we'll see.
Thanks for coment u hv given clear picture about focusing problems and u hv consulted friends reg focus other cameras
Sure thing, glad you enjoyed!
Great video, your 100% right, hopefully they can fix this issue !
From everything I understand it's a hardware issue with how the focusing systems currently work on mirrorless cameras so hopefully upgraded focus technologies will solve the issue down the road.
So glad to finally see a Z9 video of shooting warblers in woodlands. That is my primary focus (pun intended), or interest. I track the warbler migration in April and May and almost all of my shooting is in woodlands or at the edge of woodlands in NWRs. I'm using a D850 with a 500mm F 4 G lens and wondered if it would be worthwhile to change to the Z9. From what I saw in your video I would say that from this single point of interest it would not be worthwhile for me to change. However, if I my interest eventually changes or broadens more toward BIF then I will do another evaluation and determine if I might be better off with a Z9. My mind is not closed. Thank you for this informative video, Ray.
If that is the main thing you do then you may be frustrated I would agree. For all other scenarios the camera seems far superior.
Thom Hogan the Nikon expert said in a Q&A that only change from your D850 or D500 to the Z9 if you find you are missing something regular.
Hey Man
Great Video
I've heard somewhere that background focus issue is because MirrorLess doesn't have cross type focus point . All mirrorless cameras are more responsive to horizontal lines rather than vertical . That do cause issue while pulling back focus. Focus recall button might help a bit.
Yup, I've heard the same and I've used all the workarounds which help, just trying to point out to others that it's an issue is all.
I have the same camera as you and experienced the same frustration with the scenarios you describe. It is important to understand which AF mode works best under certain conditions. Please give Wide Area AF (L) a try. I found it resolved the busy background problem in particular.
I've tried them all and they don't solve the issue. I'll be sharing a video showing that shortly.
The thing is, if one mode isn't working you try another, then if that doesn't work you try another but by then my puffin in flight with sand eels is long gone. Another example, hirundines( Swift's, swallows etc), easily one of the hardest birds to photograph, the Z9 was struggling to get a lock on, the A9 blew me away at how good it locked and tracked.
Interesting, it will help me prepare for when my camera finally arrives!🙏🏾
Glad it was helpful!
I've loved it so far, but really am liking the Wide Area AF. Very good for BIF but also perched birds.
Nice, glad that's working out for you!
Small tip for leave all your AF setting in display set to on that will help us better understand how the AF is setup in your shown scenarios.
Thanks for the suggestion, I should have done that and will in future videos.
One of the more truthful reviews, I'm experiencing the same thing and why I will still have my D5 for a while to come along side. AF and subject recognition still needs a fairly major tweak to be great. I'm really happy with it overall but wasn't blown away initially. I do believe that Nikon will come to the party with firmware that will significantly improve it. I shoot side be side with a mate and his R5 (both of us are using adapted big primes) and I merely hope it's as good as the Canon soon in the initial subject recognition.
Amen (firmware update). That said, the combination of no black out and animal eye AF has allowed me to get small BIF photos I have struggled to get in the past.
@Photo Bunny I saw a review from DP review that said the Eye AF on the Canon R3 was a bit hit and miss. I'm sure it will improve over time like the AF on the Z9.
@Photo Bunny Amen again. I toyed with the setup you mention, but found I really wanted Fn2 for quickly swapping in/out of FX/DX mode and Fn3 accessible to area types (so far) so it is accessible if camera is turned to portrait mode. It all could change and in fact I have my banks different depending on what I am shooting. I have the record button for playback so I don't have to remove my eye from the viewfinder. I find WA-L or Single point does that best as well for initial focus. 3D is currently on the shutter release. I would like the Canon magic as well imported to Nikon.
@Photo Bunny Yeah seems that's what most of us have landed on in quick time. Shutter to Wide area L, BBAF to 3D for the takeover and FN1 & 3 to single point if all else fails. I seen in your comment to the other person re:foxes, it is interesting that some subject just work. The Z9 seems good with Osprey, a Deer not so much!
@Photo Bunny yeah agree with the FW updates and time... although hopefully not that long or they'll continue to play catch-up. Unsure what Deer it was here (Queensland, Australia) but my Z9 didn't want a bar of them as opposed to my mates R5 was tracking them. They were in a field a distance away so not frame filling by any stretch but zero identification of the subject vs the R5 who was on them.
I am glad to see someone else who is seeing some issues with the Z9. In my case I only have F glass so far with the exception of the 24-70 4.0 Z. I have had situations where the 300mm pf simply refuses to focus even when restarting the focus acquisition. I had to point the camera at something else and focus on it then it would refocus on the original bird. On my D850/500's if you are in AFC and you move the focus point to something else after the blocked shot timer expires it refocuses. I can duplicate the issue with the Z9 where it will think its focused i.e. green indicator but clearly be OOF and will not retry while holding down the focus button. I suspect that its something to do with camera/lens communication but not sure yet. There are so many awesome things that I love about the camera too like WYSIWYG viewfinder and 20 fps. But you really have to be careful with the shutter button to prevent a lot of extra shots. :)
Yes, from what I know this is simply a mirrorless issue and not specific to Nikon or this camera.
I’ve seen quite a few photographers now say that about the AF struggling to regain focus on small birds and it’s not just with busy backgrounds. Duane Paton reported it happening on his Canon R6 with blurred backgrounds and he had to point the camera at the floor under the bird to refocus. Scott Keys also experiences it with his Nikon Z6 and he said when he reverts to his D4S it feels like a jump in technology. I’ll be sticking with my D500 for sometime because I photograph small birds.
Yeah, I know it's a somewhat known issue, just wanted to mention it again here.
Ray I agree with your focus observations, I would love a programable button to force the lens to close focus. Your comments regarding visible noise, i think is more to do with the raw engine used to interpret the file. ADobe at the moment is not up to scratch. The Nikon NX studio gives a much cleaner start point and I suspect that when Capture one provides HE support and when DXO provide any support for the camera the noise will ‘clean up’. I think its worth waiting and revisiting this part of the post at a future date. The raw files clean up remarkably well and retain good dynamic range, so I am hopeful for improvement on the RAW front. THe back focusing issue is a pain, i resort to touch screen focus then back to 3D. The autofocus is sticky when it acquires a subject but for songbirds esp in dar environments you still need to work for an image
That would be wonderful to have a program button on the camera to do a focus preset, would be much easier but still just a workaround. As for noise in the files that's a great observation about the raw converter not being the best yet and can clean it up. I'm still happy with the files and I never expected them to be as good being nearly double the resolution as what I was previously shooting.
Curious what your tracking locking sensitivity was when you did this test (setting a3) might this impact the quickness of refocusing? Or doesn’t this impact single point?
I've tried them all and it doesn't make a difference for the stuck on the background issue. I'm not positive but I believe it applies to all settings except I would guess the animal tracking since that works so differently?
Hi Ray, can you share your experience with the editing / Codec side of things. I am a windows/ Premier Pro user and have heard that these modern cameras cause issues in the edit stage.
I don't know much at all about that stuff so can't help you there. I haven't had a chance to edit video shot on the Z9. I will say the MacBook Pro I'm using seems to fly through anything I throw at it though!
@@RayHennessy Ok, much appreciated. I will keep digging.
FYI, here's how pre-exposure centering works:
Any VR / IBIS system has a limited range through which it can shift the image. As the camera moves, you can bump up against the edge of this range. This is what causes the stabilization to "jump" as you pan the camera (outside of sport mode) - as it fights the panning, it reaches a point where it can't physically shift the image any farther, and then it has no choice but to re-center, resulting in a jump.
If the camera were to begin an exposure when it was already right at the edge of its VR / IBIS range, it wouldn't be able to stabilize the image against further movement in that direction. To avoid that, it snaps everything back to center just as it starts the exposure. This is a bit annoying, but it's hopefully less annoying than having VR just not work seemingly at random, based on where exactly the VR / IBIS systems were within their ranges when you happened to press the shutter button.
Makes sense and I get how I wouldn't have noticed it when shooting on previous cameras due to the mirror moving and the viewfinder blackout of the Z6II
That was very useful Ray. I've been a Nikon shooter since the F3 days and I have hope again😅 As a hobbyist it would be tough to convince my wallet to cough up the asking price for a Z9. I'm hoping Nikon will release a body priced more like the Z7ii that incorporates some of the better features of the Z9. A successor to the now discontinued D500. I'll be watching for your followup Z9 review.
It's amazing how many people have stated the same, i.e. a D500 replacement but some of the techies in Nikon seem to think that everybody wants full frame cameras these days. Like many have mentioned in other conversations, to have an APS-C Mirrorless camera with many of the Z9 features would be cheaper and would also place it within reach of a massive amount of photographers.
@@Gazzab6 Yeah, I wonder if that is something that will ever be made again since the current sensors are so high res they somewhat negate the need for a crop sensor body, other than the lower price you mentioned.
Glad you worked it out, hopefully its uphill from here. Please tell me WHAT LENS did you use for this ? Also I just think with mirrorless, AF is a think different approach, I’m so used to my D850 but I quickly learnt to use various focusing techniques within a sequence even on the DSLR to get more keepers. Cant wait for your full review Ray.
I was shooting a Nikon 500mm f/4 G, which is admittedly quite the beat up lens at this point :) As mentioned I know I'll get more used to it and already am each day so I know I'll enjoy it more and more as time goes on.
Thanks for this. Does the evf jumping happen when using single point?
It does and is apparently normal behavior, just something to get used to.
The issue with getting the bird in focus in busy environments between branches/trees, like in your clip with the yellow songbird. I had the exact same issue with the Sony A9II, it just could not gain focus on the bird in between the branches, although it could clearly see the bird out of focus like in your example. As you say, i think it is a mirrorless issue in general across all the brands. It is really annoying.
Perhaps there is a way around this? I just got the Z9 so i will have to test it out and see.
I've tried every setting I can and nothing solves that issue, I believe it's just a mirrorless issue.
Looking at the apparent size of your bird subjects here I would say the Z9 tracking here is on par with my A7 IV if not better. First rule of autofocus is apparent size in viewfinder/proximity to subject.
I'm comparing it to how I've shot for years with birds roughly that size, which is my style. It's certainly better when closer to subjects.
I appreciate your initial thoughts, Ray. You say that you don't feel the Z9 helped you acquire any shots in these first three weeks that you could not have acquired with the DSLR. Now for me, who already moved on from DSLR to the z6ii, the question is: have you acquired any shots with the Z9 that you could not have acquired with the z6ii? For those of us who have already jumped to mirrorless, and to the z6ii/z7ii in particular, is there a reason here to jump to the Z9?
Great question. Again I would say for me the answer is more that it makes getting shots easier for sure, but not anything I couldn't have managed with the Z6ii. I think I can easily say at this point though it does make capturing the compositions I want easier and those were certainly more difficult with the Z6ii so it's certainly a worthy upgrade.
I just checked my Z9 with the 70-200 2.8S lens and in single shot it jumps as well, so this is not fixed with the new lenses. I noticed it last night while learning the camera. Good to know that it is an expected (if unnecessary) result.
I just want those sweet 120fps in 4K :) maybe also in a Z8, I want a smaller and lighter body. Nice demonstration, Ray!
haha, 120fps is nuts!
You mentioned that you are using High Efficiency Raw format. Which software are using for the same ? Capture one does not support it as of now. I am curious on the same.
Adobe Lightroom currently.
Id suggest switching to DX mode for such long distances. Certainly would help with lock on tracking if the subject is larger in the frame
That would take away the full frame perspective that I specifically try to shoot for with a lot of space in my images so while it may help, for me it would defeat the purpose of shooting this camera in the first place.
It’s the VR centering the sensor between each shot so that it can stabilize to the maximum that it can stabilize.
Thanks, a few have mentioned that and now I understand it.
I notice the same focus lock issues with my z7ii with the 500 PF. Other lenses don't do it. What lens are you using? does it happen with Z and non Z lenses?
I have the native 400mm f/2.8 TC lens now and the issue still exists, it's not a lens thing, it's a mirrorless technology issue.
There are a couple of points to add here. I’ve noticed that with longer telephoto lenses when the DOF becomes so shallow, the camera can’t find anything to focus on. Instead of hunt like DSLRs do, it sort of just gives up. I would have hoped Nikon would have fixed that with the Z 9. A quick twist of the focus ring to get something with contrast helps. I believe this has to do with the mostly transparent AF sensors on top of the imaging sensors. The dSLR sensors were below the mirror and didn’t need to be so thin giving them more photons to work with.
Nature has camouflage for a reason. Your nuthatch was hard to see anyway. When the background gets busy, the camera simply can’t figure out what’s an eye or bird. I don’t think many cameras.
The AF isn’t magic. If it was we would only have one AF mode. We still have the others because there are times it’s needed.
Yes, the honeymoon with the Z9 is over. It turns out the Autofus of the Z9 is behind Canon and Sony. What a bummer.
@@Stefan1968ful I don’t believe that this should be the conclusion at all. Now full disclosure, I’m still waiting on my Z 9 and I photograph a lot of birds so I can validate these findings or see it in action.
However, only a couple of people have come out with negative opinions on the AF. Most people are having a great experience or struggle at first until they get the camera tuned to their specific needs.
At the end of the day the person behind the camera still should be in control and pick the right tool for the job: i.e. single point when there are no distinct eyes or too many eyes or your bird is hiding behind a bunch of interference.
@@yophotodude7693 Yes, I also don't want to draw this final conclusion like this yet. But I m not yet happy with my Z9, and I can compare it with other cameras, not just the A1 but also a D850 and D5. The 'big' moment is not yet there, the Z9 does maybe the job in most of the times but a D5 did it without any issues before and so does the A1. Yes, have to see.
@@Stefan1968ful Steve Mattheis said he got more in focus shots of his dog running towards him and other subjects with his Z9 than his A1.
Yes, I fully agree with you that it's simply a mirrorless tech issue, not a camera specific issue with the focus being stuck on the background. I'll be sharing a video shortly showing more about the issue.
Hey Ray, try using small/wide area and then 3D tracking might help with acquisition, with my D850 I had to occasionally move the manual ring to initiate a branch area.
I will be giving it a shot, thanks!
I have tried it and regarding the stuck on the background issue it doesn't solve anything there.
Hey Ray, I've been shooting with the Z9 for a bit more than a week (wildlife). I have it coupled to either the 200-500mm f/5.6 or 600mm f/4 VR FL ED. Like you, I am still experimenting with what is mapped where. Currently, instead of mapping two banks to wildlife, I've done something I have never done before. I mapped Wide Area L to BB AF, single point to Fn1, and 3D to half pressed shutter release (previously never used for AF). Everyone has their reasons and needs. For me, sometimes WA Large and 3D just won't find focus with the 600mm yet if I single point it, it quickly locks on. Then I can either use 3D or WAL. If the bird has a reflection, 3D can jump to the eye in the reflection (or anywhere else for that matter) where as WAL with the box above the neck tends to stay on the real bird. That said, I went to the shore with the explicit purpose of practicing fast small BIF. In two sequences I had a willet screaming down the shoreline (hour before sunset) and the hit rate on about 15 photos on each was about 95 percent. I could never do that with my DSLR (so hats off to you). If I have a small bird between branches about to launch, I find single point much faster to locate focus and then 3D to lock on (hopefully stay on) for flight. Sometimes, as you mentioned, it just jumps randomly elsewhere. I am hoping Nikon will fix this as I've noticed if I've taken a photo when it jumps, they aren't usually in focus. I have had to manually rack focus on many occasions as well. Felt yours was a completely honest evaluation in the field (and something I've experienced). I'll keep in touch to check out your progress. I see Josh has also chimed in. QUICK QUSTION: I noticed for the video you where in aperture priority. Not sure if you shoot that way, but if you do, Nikon has a feature I did not have on my previous DSLRs called ISO Sensitivity with minimum shutter speed. This is where you pick a shutter speed, that when you go below it, Auto ISO kicks in. My question is, assuming you shoot in this mode, so you set your ISO if you are shooting above or at that Shutter Speed, and then the camera takes over below? What is the scenario that would make this setting helpful?
I’m pretty sure that Wide-L subject detection failures got introduced by firmware 1.11. Unfortunately there is no going back to check this.
@@rolandrick You're a wealth of information and I very much thank you for your thoughts!
@@dance2jam thanks ☺️. I’m above all a mega-nerd 😆.
@@rolandrick Again, you're preaching to the choir. You've got a home here, that's for sure!
Yeah, I've basically done the same things as you but with slightly different choices, but super nice to be able to pick different focus modes on the fly.
Refreshing to see this camera is finally in the hands of some non-Nikon ambassadors. I've no doubt that it's an excellent camera, but I've seen little in terms of complaints or criticism thus far, with the exception to comparing to Sony's faster frame rate or Canon's stickier eye AF. Thanks for your honest initial assessment. I'm curious to see how you feel about it after another month or more of use in the field.
It is an excellent camera and I'm liking it more and more each day. I'll certainly share more in the near future!
I honestly believe Nikon still have improvements to make when it comes to AF compared to some other brands, no doubt it will improve as it has done from Z7 and Z ii cameras to the Z9 and feel the AF of the Z7ii should have been what we are seeing in the Z9, not to say the Z9 is not a fantastic camera,
I'm sure we will continue to see improvements from all companies, certainly one of the nice things about mirrorless and the firmware upgrades. I don't however believe anything will solve the stuck on the background issue since that seems to be a mirrorless tech issue, not firmware.
The picture jumping with VR lenses... This happened even with DSLRs... Happens with my Z6 as well... Only way I have found to turn it off is to turn the VR off...
I think as there is a mechanical shutter in the Z6 and my D750 hence the slight blackout... Hence the effect isn't that pronounced???
Its very annoying... I didn't know what it's called... Thanks for helping me out with that...
Makes sense you would never see it because of the mirror or viewfinder blackout on other cameras.
You mentioned that you are using High Efficiency Raw format. Which software are using, Lr still not support now.
I use Lightroom it's been supported since January when I got the camera.
Thanks for the info, why dont you get some native Nikon Z lenses?
I do have them now, I have the 400mm f/2.8 TC, the 100-400mm and 24070mm f/4 I'll be putting out info about them as soon as I get some free time.
What camera do you recommend to a hobbyist- non pro. I have a D5500 now and it takes a nice pic but what could be a good next step D500 or D850 or other?
It's very hard to recommend a specific camera as it really depends on how you take photos and what your goals are. I recommend currently investing your money into mirrorless since that is the direction the entire industry is moving!
@@RayHennessy Thanks. Mostly landscapes. Looked into mirrorless but just to expensive as is the glass. My D5500 seems good enough for now. Got some new lenses but the D850 is tempting me.
@@UTAH100 The Z6 used or Z6ii isn't that expensive new at $2k and for landscapes using your existing lenses would be perfect. The mirrorless cameras are almost an ideal landscape camera I would say.
@@RayHennessy Thanks.
What about the zoom does it zoom really good too distance or heights
I'm not sure what you mean?
Hope you get a quick recovery … well for VR , for casual Walk around shooting … you can keep in sports mode . That’s helps and you don’t get any issues . Non sports is for still subjects that doesn’t move.
Another option .. when you shoot shore birds … sometimes you can try wide area modes … you will have to move it around when the bird goes out … but it gets consistent results … even avoid focusing on its reflection as long as you keep the box above the reflection.. I guess you will like it over the time .
There is many setting that you might have to explore to get to your liking … have a good day ..
Bummer I don't have sport mode on my 500mm f/4 G. I could see limiting the tracking to wide area would certainly help, it's less for the camera to keep track of but sort of defeats the purpose of total free composition in some ways. Focusing on the reflection wasn't bad as it kept the bird in focus anyway hah!
I notice that you use Aperture priority, even though your background is variable and changing constantly. I think that is why you are experiencing some of the focus issues. Try switching to Manual, and see if that helps. Aperture is great for Landscape, where you are framing a static subject. When I switched from DSLR to Mirrorless, I found that I had to try some different methods to see what was more effective and provided more consistent results from what I had been experiencing and trained on before.
Andrew, how would the exposure help out with focus? Are they tied together in some way?
@@RayHennessy You are asking the camera to adjust the ISO and shutter speed to get the fixed Aperture that you want. But since you have a fixed Aperture lens, why have the camera do that extra work? You also have Auto ISO, so the camera is already adjusting on the fly for that. Since the subject is moving and the background changes with it, using Shutter priortiy would seem more appropriate, or Manual. What I have found, even in these powerful cameras, is that the less work they do with adjustments, the better the focus works.
@@andrewsmith3121 interesting, I've not heard that focus slows down when the camera is doing other calculations. I do often flip back and forth between full manual settings and aperture priority with Auto ISO. I use that because when using Auto ISO I'm already letting the camera determine the exposure so why should I bother paying attention to the shutter speed as well? I set the camera to give me a minimum shutter speed and then it doesn't go below that and additionally raises the shutter speed when the lighting allows. I still maintain exposure control with exposure compensation and even easier I get to enable easy exposure compensation which lets me focus, track and shoot all while adjusting my exposure with my thumb wheel. When lighting conditions are changing often I've never been fast enough with manual exposure to keep up but have for years found it much simpler to tell the camera lighter or darker with exposure comp. I probably shoot about 50/50 full manual control and Aperture priority/Auto ISO.
Definitely a common problem with Mirrorless. Even canon R6 and R5. I had this with the A7r3 as well but I was surprised to see it on the R6 and R5.
And it’s an issue most aren’t talking about. Duade Paton has a video about it as well.
It’s not a set up problem for everyone in the comment section saying it is. It’s a flaw in mirrorless cameras.
Kudos for the honest info :)
Duade Paton has done two videos on the issue and Scott Keys from Wildlife Inspired has also reported it and he said he hears it all the time from photographers with mirrorless cameras from all the brands when he is running his workshops.
@@Gazzab6 thanks a lot. I think the manufacturers need some time to fine-tune it. There is no need to rush to replace the D500 😀
Yes, same issue across all cameras, hopefully next gen mirrorless can eventually solve that issue. Everything else about them is wonderful!
12:13 yup, I shoot Sony and have the exact same problem. It’s so frustrating. Like you said, it seems to be something across the board with mirrorless. Love the honest review. I hear so many people (not just with Nikon) who have bought the flagship camera and say it’s “changed their lives” 😆 - probably trying to justify having spent so much. I don’t feel so bad now…I can’t afford the flagship. (You still have your “out-on-the-town” hair for this video lol)
Thank for the honest info 👍
Yes, from what I can tell it's entirely a mirrorless tech issue. Not the end of the world of course and the camera is still wonderful but frustrating in those situations for sure.
I'll be very interested to hear what you think when you have a chance to really learn how to use the camera.
Yeah, no doubt I'll enjoy it more, which is what I tried to state in the beginning.
Did the firmware help at all with the problems you experienced with focus and tracking?
It didn't solve the problem exactly, the focusing issues still exist but the firmware did allow a fix which is focus recall tied to a function button on the camera which has basically made the issue a non-issue for me now so I'm very pleased! Also I've gotten much better with the camera now.
@@RayHennessy thank you so much for the reply! I have the Z9 and 800mm pf on order so this makes me feel much better!
Ray, how does the Z9 compare against the Z6?
Much improved and many nicer features. It's a whole different level of camera which is what I expected.
Pl manufacture the camera two in one mirrorles and DSLR
Have the same experience with my 500mm f4 and Z9 ! My d500 was better at this. Other than that the camera is great but that is frustrating and I have lost a couple of shots that would have been great since the bird was really close. I will try a hybrid focusing mode ; shutter = single point focus + af-on = 3d focusing + Af-on. So when juste using the shutter you can nail the focus where you want and then press the af-on button to activate 3d focusing (and overriding the shutte single point focus). I am use to bbf though. Thx for the videos !
For now though i use wide area instead of single point focusing on the shutter to use with bird in flight. Fn buttons will help but more this summer as for now with mittens they are not that useful here in Quebec city 😝
Can you compare the D500 with the Z 9? I mean, in terms of AF speed, focus acquisition and tracking as well (reliability...). Thanks :)
@@prokremelskidezolati1426 z9 3d tracking is really great for me and work well in most situations, fast and snappy. The situation in this video is the only drawback I saw for now. z9 will stay on the background in some situations if you dont move the focus ring or focus nearer on something bigger. The d500 would have hunt more to try to refind focus on the near object.
@@1sim2clo thanks a lot 👍
I basically do the same but in reverse of you. I'm sure it will be nicer when it's less cold for you!!!
Good to see you showing an unbiased opinion of the cameras functions. I think it's easy for someone that just spent 6000$ on a camera to just say "it's a game changer" so they feel good about their purchase haha. I know it's a good camera but it's obviously not a magic wand (no camera is).
Yup, still a great camera but just missing that one great thing from dSLRs with their ability to pick up focus on closer out of focus subjects.
@@RayHennessy I shot DSLR in the past but I've been shooting with mirrorless for about 5 years now. first I was using Sony for a few years but as I got more into wildlife I wanted to move to Nikon for access to a wider range of used long lenses. I bought a Z6ii with adapter and it is good for a lot of things but it's only okay to slightly poor when it comes to action stuff. focus when objects are coming at the camera is the biggest weakness I found and also the focus wanting to get stuck to the background sometimes too when subjects are closer. I had a Z9 on order but the reality that it would likely take 6 months to get it in my hands had me questioning my purchase, then I found a deal on a D850 and grip that I couldn't pass up and honestly I am really glad I went "backward". The D850 really grabs focus well and I forgot how much I missed seeing reality through the view finder. I've been considering just investing deeper in DSLR because honestly as long as I get the shot I want it doesn't really matter to me if the camera is 5 years old especially when the image quality is on par with the present day offerings. The images from the D850 sensor are stellar in my opinion. I think it's only weakness is the smaller buffer size but it's rare that I fire off so many shots that the buffer clogs up.
@@Raevenswood Wonderful to hear the D850 is working out so well for you!
Hey, I don't shoot Nikon, but I have seen in another video that having an external recorder impacted the performance of the camera. Try your testing without the external recorder. See if you get different results
Yes I saw that too. It was Steve Mattheis
I've had the exact same focus issues plenty of times without the atomos connected.
@@RayHennessy yea as I said I dont shoot Nikon, just trying to be helpful for those who do ✌
Thanks for your interesting thoughts. What lenses have you tried and have you noticed any difference with a Z lens. Cheers
I don't own any tele Z lenses so haven't tested them yet.
Try wide eye autofocus and small eye auto too. A lot of people are going with that over 3d tracking.
Mike, thanks for the feedback, please see my video on the focus getting stuck on the background here, changing settings doesn't help in any way for this issue. th-cam.com/video/-H-g8odE2v0/w-d-xo.html
For me, as a D4 user, its the unrepeatable wildlife stuff that is important. Sure you can eventually get the shot with many cameras if its birds feeding or moving about, but the best wildlife moments you only get one go. When you says 'it makes it easier', that's a huge deal, because it means you may get those one-chance shots where otherwise you might not.
I see what you are saying no doubt. I guess for my photography I rarely have those one chance opportunities occur in front of my lens so it never feels like I'm missing things too often. But when I do have those moments I would want my camera to perform then!
Have you tried using a Z lens instead of an adapted F-mount lens? I've heard reports that the Z lenses are more consistent.
I have tried it with the Z mount 400mm f/2.8 TC and the 100-400mm Z mount and don't see any difference with this issue in my experience.
Thanks for this initial review Ray. In all honesty (not trying to start a brand war here!) I'd be really disappointed in the cameras AF tracking ability you're presenting in this video. What I'm seeing is maybe 60% of what I get out of my a1 and I suspect would be a similar comparison to the Canon R5. Perhaps it's because you don't have the camera fully optimized yet and it can do considerably better than this. But if this is the best the Z9 can do I wouldn't be happy knowing what I know about the a1's AF abilities. And that little movement at the beginning of each burst would really annoy me.
There's no jumping with the image stabilisation set to Sport Mode.
I'm not disappointed overall, just working on figuring out the camera and where it works and where it doesn't.
Just so you know. All F Nikon lenses jump like that on the first frame in full VR but don't in sport mode. Did it on my D300s, D500, D850 and now my Z9. I have no idea how you didn't know or see this in the past
Been shooting for over 20 years and never once saw it prior to this camera. As someone else pointed out it's maybe due to mirror or viewfinder blackout hiding it, which makes sense.
@@RayHennessy i can reproduce this every single shot when a lens is in normal VR with every camera i mentioned. The AF point doesn't jump when in sport mode. Everyone i know that shoots with Nikon sees the same thing and no black out hooded it. It's plain as day
@@RayHennessy Steve Perry explains it with some detail and I think it was in his review video of the 500mm PF lens.
Also note that it apparently doesn’t focus as well when you’re also outputting to an atomos.
It has the exact same issues when I'm not.
Very good video, thanks a lot. It shows me the issues of the Z9 in terms of Autofocus. Never had something like this with my A1. And I say that with having both flagship models. The Z9 is from autofocus simply premature and not there where Sony and Canon are.
I've not shot the others so can't compare personally but have heard that from a few people. Overall it's certainly an improvement for Nikon.
Set your AF-C to Animals only and use Wide area small you’ll find it 100% better with small song birds at your focal length. Similar to your 3D on your D4
It won't even solve the problem with AF-C and single point AF so I'm not sure how anything else would help this issue. And I never used or liked 3D on the D4s for how I shoot. I'll give it a shot and see when I get into songbirds season in a couple months.
@@RayHennessy that's how the AF on the Z9 is designed. Single point is for focus and recompose or a stationary subject. My D5 and D6 had exactly the same results that you showed with single point and the Z9 with small subjects in both background and foreground clutter. And I own a Z9 and have had it since the first shipment in December.
@@RayHennessy what settings do you use for birds in flight?
@@hankdinardo4308 I've shot the D4s for 7 years and never had an issue with this.
Bunch of different things I've been playing with, no set thing yet.
I loved the D850 but the shutter noise was too loud it was spooking close subjects and hunting Barn Owls . I tried the Z6 and 7ii but found I was getting a poor hit rate compared to my D850 . In the end I got the Sony A1 when it first came out with the 200-600. Since its release I've been thinking about changing to the Z9 + 500mm PF , I like the 500mm PF and feel its better than the 200-600 . I no longer have the PF but know how well it performed regards IQ . After watching this video I think I'll stick with the A1 and just save up for the 600mm f4 . The A1 sometimes does the issue at 12mins in your vid but definitely not as bad as that, not that ive noticed anyway . Thank you for this video Ray, the actual footage showing these issues is extremely helpful
Nice man, I think sticking with whatever works for you and what you shoot is the way to go!
7:50, Sony a1 sticks straight to the eye and remains there. Z9 does not. It also struggles by almost zero subject detection as soon birds sits behind branches, what is totally no issue on the a1 or a9ii. However, me, Nikon shooter since 1980's, I sold all my Sony gear and all my hopes are laying in the next firmware update. Currently I'm on 1.11.
Hope it works out for you, I'm never going to count on firmware fixing things or adding things but if it does I'll be thrilled!
@@RayHennessy you may of course not count on them, but if it will be equivalent to the Z7 3.31 to 3.40, that will become awesome. However: if nothing is between lens and subject, the detection works perfectly. But if the bird/dog/animal is obscured only about 1% or so by branches, the eye tracking AF prefers that tiny thin branch between lens and bird
Sold my Sony a9ii and all the gear for the Z9, Big mistake. No matter what af mode it has a problem focusing on say a small bird on a busy background, by the time it gets focus the shot has gone, many missed opportunities. Amazing camera for everything else.
@@moosehead10 That’s unfortunately the truth. Made the same mistake. a1 + 200-600 sold because of propaganda. In comparison to Sony’s subject detection, the Z9 has literally none. Well, it the bird fills half of the frame it’s OK. But for bifs, which should be already detected far away for proper panning it’s 🙈. I wait for the 2.1 update before I switch to Sony.
@@moosehead10 The D500 does a better job with the AF-S 500 5.6 PF or 200-500 5.6 as the Z9 with the Z400 2.8
😉👍
I have the Z9, love it, but if it comes to subject and eye detection, it can by far not keep up with the Sony a1 or a9s. In situations like about 6:50, the a1 and a9s do not misfocus a single image and eye AF is always spot on.
Yes, can we say "firmware update" coming in 2022?
@@dance2jam It’s if course complaining at high level. Z9 is awesome, I’ll never give it back or exchange it for a Sony. If upcoming firmware updates will be like 3.31 to 3.40 on my Z7, making literally a new camera of the Z7, AF improved by factors in comparison to 3.31, I can wait for that update. 😉
@@rolandrick Quick question Roland RIck as I do not possess a Sony a1/a9ii. What was the reason you said "I'll ...never exchange it for a Sony". Just curious what you find is the biggest sticking point there. I'm always learning and open minded. I shoot with friends who have the R5/R3, and a7iV, but not a1so I have nothing to go by.
@@dance2jam I’m not only shooting wildlife and/or well lit sport events, I do also a lot of photo journalism, most of it is due to its nature indoor, where you normally use on camera flash, bouncing off walls to avoid harsh ugly shadows. For that you shoot at ISO 1600 to 6400, 1/160 shutter speed, aperture 5.6 to 8.0. At those ISO values, the Sonys add an orange-reddish tint to all shadows like of wrinkles and also to all other skin imperfections such as birth marks etc. Each imperfection is emphasised, making the people looking 20 years older. For such jobs, the Sonys are totally unusable. No such problems with Nikon delivering perfect jpgs. On jobs like that, you have no time for correction of raw files. If you shoot with the Sonys at ISO 100 in a studio, this orange-reddish problem does not occur, it’s only on high ISO values. The a9 and a9ii as well as a7r4 don’t have lossless compressed raw option, if you’re on the verge to switch, go a1. The a1 is definitely “the one”, kinda mix of a9ii + a7r4 + a7r3. - If your also interested in night sky, the bigger the sensor pixels (the larger the pixel pitch), the better. In this case, the Z6ii is your choice, I do night sky with the D6 having only 20.8 megapixels. Portrait I shoot only D6 or Z6/Z6ii. Full frame sensors at 24 or less megapixel all have an anti alias filter, making the skin smoother straight out of camera. Please be aware, high res portrait cameras like Fuji GFX 50, Hasselblad X1D/X1Dii or H4D, H5D or H6D where you can exchange the back have up to 50 megapixel also an AA filter. No AA filter on the GFX 100’s or Hasselblad’s 100c or 400c MS backs. Believe me, that clinical sharpness you want to avoid on portraits, specially the female models are grateful for shootings with sensors having an AA filter. Last but not least: I generally don’t like the Sony colours, so, I sacrifice the 35% out of focus images. But one thing Nikon must urgently fix: the subject detection failures on the Z9, specially if Wide-L is used it works worst, focus is always on branches in front of e.g. tiny birds or stains in the trees bark are detected as bird, but not the birds sitting next to it (within the Wide-L frame). In real world situations like that, the Z9 detects zero birds, where the a1 jumps instantly to the birds eye. I have no Ninja 5 or so, otherwise I would make a video what’s going on in the Z9 EVF and post it, it’s reproducible. I already sold all my Sony gear, but believe me, it is exactly as I’m describing it. If nothing is in front of the bird and as long there is no distracting background, the Z9 perfectly detects the subject as expected. In situations like that, the best Nikon is the - unfortunately discontinued - D500. If you set in the Custom Setting Menu a4 to ON, a5 to WIDE and b5 to ON, you may shoot the D500 in AF-C Auto-area and you get 95% picks birds in flight. For birds between branches you need S or 3D, that’s my default setting on the shutter button. AF-ON I have set in f1 to AF-area, so, I can use S or 3D (whatever is dealt in) and by simply pressing AF-ON, I get AF-area. Setting of a8 must be of course set to ON (what is the default). All values from the D500 menu. - If it comes to filming, the Z9 is the camera of your choice. ProRes directly to the cards, no external recorder needed. That’s as good as it gets. Strangely, the AF-F when filming has less problems with distracting background as in stills mode, that’s an inheritance from the Z6/Z7.
@@rolandrick OMG: Roland you are preaching to the choir. This information is SO HELPFUL. I own the D700 (12 megapixel, AA filter, pixel pitch 8.4 microns if I remember right) and the D500, and now the Z9. No plans on changing all my glass for Sony/Canon at the moment. I've experienced with the Z9/WAL/3D EXACTLY what you are saying after one week of use. I agree with Nikon needing to fix Wide Area AF mode. It's very helpful to hear your detailed explanation, description of the larger format cameras, etc. Much appreciated! You have been incredibly helpful and provided awesome insight. I'm a relatively new photographer (4 years), and I can not tell you how helpful the information is and I am very appreciative of you sharing your knowledge and experience with me. I may have over 30 years experience in the medical field, but photography has been a wonderful outlet during the pandemic. Thank you for helping my knowledge base grow enormously in just a few paragraphs! BTW: I just grabbed by D500 out of the car and changed my settings to match your recommendations. Now to test the new setup. MUCH APPRECIATED.
I have to say I am not at all impressed with that Nikon eye tracking, it's inconsistent. The animal tracking seems worse. I have an R5 and have set it at single point focus, then set a button for my thumb to hold eye tracking on, when I take thumb off it goes back to single point. So if the bird is lost I just take my thumb off, get bird back, put eye tracking back on with my thumb. This works well for tracking and eye focus in any scenario for me, busy bushes and small birds. Maybe that's something you can try. To get a bird in flight I point at it with my thumb on the eye tracking button and it grabs on. I have a second thumb button to lock focus. Then I have a tracking setting where it sticks to the bird longer than the default, even if it goes behind branches etc briefly or something goes in front of the subject or it turns away. And another tracking setting for the speed or erratic behaviour of the bird. Maybe these suggestions have already been made but if not I hope I have given you a couple of ideas to look into. I have to say the thing I don't like about mirrorless is the viewfinder and having to wake it up!
For Nikon it's easy to configure similar settings as you mentioned, none of them solve the "stuck on the background" issue though.
My dream about the best camera is gone 😂😂
loool
why post a review when the first thing you say is you are not as familiar with the camera as you would like to be?
I titled it "initial thoughts" and not review as that's exactly what I was sharing. Many people have been asking for my thoughts recently so I decided to share them. I'll share a more thorough review once I've had more time with the camera as I mentioned in the video.
Never seen footage of the Godwit’s puttin their straws in the sand like that!
Pretty fun right!
"It won't even solve the problem with AF-C and single point AF so I'm not sure how anything else would help this issue." It is clear that your head and heart are firmly stuck in DSLR loss-mode. You have been handed some great advise below from those who have been successful with the Z9 autofocus system, which functions completely differently from that found in a DSLR. Your response has been that you have tried everything and you didn't have this problem with your DSLR. I have had my Z9 for about 2 weeks and have autofocus setup exactly like outlined by others and have had no problem capturing bluebirds in the thickets of my local wildlife sanctuary using my 500mm PF. If this 75 year old can do it, I am sure you can, if you bother to try.
He isnt wrong. That AF issue is a Mirrorless problem I have with my old Sony gear and my R6 and now R5. The DSLR in THAT scenario is just better. But that’s almost the only scenario.
👍👍👍
The rest of the comment you quoted above I said I would be giving it a shot when I get a chance. I would not say it's clear that I'm stuck in dSLR mode.
I'm sorry to be the bad boy/troll/a*&&^le/whatever, but, as you state at the beginning, you don't know what you're doing, as you don't know the camera yet, WHY you make the video just for clickbait? Learn first the camera and be sure that we would love to hear the bad or the good results doesn't matter when you will do it... But 100 bucks it is a 100 bucks, right?
As stated it's my initial thoughts. I figured that was pretty self explanatory but I guess it wasn't. I'll try again for you. These are my initial thoughts on the camera shortly after I received it. That means I haven't fully worked with it and was simply sharing how I felt about the camera and what I liked and didn't like. Also as stated in the video I will be sharing my thoughts on the camera again once I've had more time with it. I will say overall now that I have had more time many of my first impressions still stand but some have changed. I'll be sharing them soon. Was that more clear for you Terry? Thanks for watching!
Ray's experience mimics my own and apparently that of many others. Frankly I've grown quite frustrated with my Z9, to the point where I've gone back to shooting my D500+PF500mm for distance shots of birds, and using my Z9+Sigma135mm for close ups (such as hummingbirds) as the Sigma lens lacks VR and the Z9's IBIS really helps with that. I was hoping v2 firmware would fix the problem with small target focus acquisition but it did not. Ironically, I've become incredibly proficient at using manual focus on the Z9 (for initial focus acquisition, after which I switch to one of the AF modes such as 3D). Just wish I could keep focus peaking on at all times (like when in AF->MF, vs. being forced to use MF).
@@robertoslin6489 Thankfully I've been getting more and more used to the Z9 and now don't have much of an issue with the focus on it. Sorry to hear you have had such a bad time with it, I hope it grows on you as it did with me.