David goes out test riding in the pouring rain in winter so that we don't have to.... another way to look at it is, ride big tyres in winter so you put out more power and don't have to be out so long in the muck to achieve the same effect... then jump on your summer bike when it perks up and boom, you fly. My own testing has somewhat confusingly shown that go even bigger and there is negligible difference in speed between a fast 40c gravel tyre (Conti TS) and a 2.1 Thunderburt (48C), some tyres seem to defy the laws of physics if supple enough...
Seems incredible to think that back in the mid-70s Pros were riding 23mm tubulars in Paris-Roubaix. Steel frames and skinny aluminium rims would have taken a little of the sting out of it, but not much.
I've been riding the Pirelli 40s for a couple months and they're wonderful. No, not the fastest, but they make up for it in a number of other ways - grip, ride quality, puncture resistance.
Thanks for the great work as always, David! I believe you missed out on the true grail width: 35mm! The P Zeros come in 700x35 and don’t suffer from the same weight penalties as the 40s, and just feel faster overall than the 28s I was riding previously. I’d be interested to get your perspective on the 35s as compared to the 30s and 40s.
I’m actually riding the Goodyear VectorR Z35s designed for Zipp wheels. I couldn’t wait for my desired PZero 35s to be launched, so I took a flyer on the Goodyear’s and am surprisingly happy with them! I think your comment and my experience point even further to 35s being the true sweet spot with a growing number of options.
I have started riding vittoria corsa n.ext 700x34s (the clincher version) with TPU tubes. They are only 315g which is pretty good for a tyre that big. Ride really nicely and don't feel too slugish.
As someone who has decided to go the gravel bike serving as both my road and gravel solution, Im pumped to see the wider road tires so my bike handling wont change too much when swapping on road wheels
do you notice your gravel bike becomes 'twitchier' with a road tire vs. gravel tire? I ask 'cause I'm trying to pin down the best tire size for an all-road/light gravel bike to be used purely as a dedicated road bike. though I figure 32mm is probably the Goldilocks size for that.
I would think that 30 to 32 mm on road bikes hits the sweet spot on road bikes. I pretty much ride the widest tires I can fit: 28 mm on my road bike; limited by the brake calipers. I'm tempted to try 30 mm on my next tire. 45 mm on my gravel bike; limited by the fork legs. My Gravelking X1-R inflate to almost 48 mm. 2.4" on my XC bike; limited by the fork legs and rear stays.
On 28c I wish I could lower the psi more for maximum comfort but scared of getting pinch flat. I hope 30c could fix issue. The downside would be the weight?
@@thelmaviaduct It's hard to tell as wheels and frames flex when you ride, especially when riding out of the saddle. My gravel bike seemed to clear the gravelking tires while in the bike stand. But I recently noticed that the front tire rubbed into the right fork leg; so I will sand down the side knobs.
I have a pair of these exact tire coming in today for road use on my Revolt. Mounting on 303s wheels, coming off 28's it should be interesting. Thanks for you review, can't wait to see how they feel myself!
wide tyres like this is extremly picky on tire pressure + - 3 PSI you will feel something is off. Either too mushy no corner grip or too highpressure slow and vibrations. Keep in mind some 35mm road tires measure 37mm or so, for me 35-37mm is sweet spot and for some 32mm that actual is 34mm. I guess you run tubeless. I find Sram calculator to be spot on maybe add 2-3more psi in front tire then calculator tells
@@allemyr yeah, I figure on the 23mm inside diameter, they should be right around 40mm. I haven't checked rims pressure chart yet, but on my 28th I've been running about 50 to 55 PSI with good luck.
Merry Christmas! Be interesting to see how the 35mm go. Clearly 40 is too wide for most of us, but maybe 30 is not the sweet spot? But I hate heavy wheels, so I’ll stick to 25 or 28mm for most of my road riding, especially if it’s hilly. Maybe 30 in the winter…
@@cricanwa dumb would be running 26mm tires and having 1mm of tire extend beyond the rim width. Think of the aero man. This is serious, I have places to be, I can't jeopardize my times for that extra tire width.
I'm riding 35 mm G-One RS for all road stuff as well as group rides with pur road bikes. I've seen my share of flat tires but never had one. I hit potholes that took out the rider in front of me with no problem. What's 0.2 more kph, when you lose 10 minutes changing tubes?
5% difference for greater safety. Not a bad trade off. Having hit road debris in amongst autumn leaves on gone over the handle bars! I have 3 dropbar bikes 27mm, 35mm, 40mm. Nothing fancy!
Can you test new Hutchinson Caracal Race TLR 40 against these? They're 4w faster according to bicyclerollingresistance while being semislick gravel tire.
I have the Pirrellis , Caracals Race, and Terra Speeds in 45…the Caracals and Terra Speeds feel the most supple and speedy. If you want a fast big road tire get the Rene Herse 44c slick, or the Conti GP5K ASTR in 35.
100%. My local roads here in the California desert are straight up garbage. I’ve been riding a track bike with 28 touring tires and slime tubes for years, but much prefer my “road rides” on my cx bike with 45c gravel tires. My next road bike build will be with 35s to split the difference. Tried 30 and 32 tires and they were fast, but they get eaten up by the road conditions here.
@@davidarthurlove to see you compare the G- One RS in 35mm with these. From what the Schwalbe rep told me they are as fast as the Schwalbe Pro One tyres but the side lugs may affect speed/grip in the wet on the road. Be interesting to see. Always fancied a set on an Allroad style bike!
A couple of comments: what tire width you select has to be dependent on your road or trail conditions. A wider tire has to have very rough roads to justify its width. I would say it’s similar to how you would approach the amount of suspension you need in your mtb. Rough trails need more, smooth trails need less. Re your reference to the Plus tire movement with MTB’s: lots of journalist tested the plus tires and repeatedly proved that they were better especially in rougher conditions yet they didn’t sell well. I think the failure of the Plus tires was down to consumer rejection rather than a lack of merit. Most consumers felt that they ‘looked’ heavy and slow and that was enough to kill that movement. The industry was quick to bail on it also because they didn’t want to stock yet another tire size. It’s easier for them if everyone was on the same tire and wheel size. PS: hat off for riding in such shit conditions!
I think rider weight is going to have an impact on this as well. At 250lbs I like 32mm and I want to try something in the 35mm range next as that the max size i can stuff into the frame. Another thing is the effort to get the bike up to speed from a stop and lighter tires help with that.
My experience is that super wide tyres feel a lot slower than they are. I swapped some 32mm Sworks Mondo tyres for 42mm Sworks Pathfinders, and the bike felt sort of sluggish / slower to accelerate etc on good roads , but the data over a whole range of my normal rides was very similar only slightly slower in average. Some rides were actually faster over the same course at the same average power.. But whilst the wide tyres are amazing on bad roads / gravel etc, I definitely prefer the feel of the 32mm tyres - just feels more lively and fun, so they’ll go back on when the weather is better.
I agree. I've ridden the same tires on 42c and currently 32c. The 32c is faster. I think 32c is the best all rounder for tarmac riding. If you're gonna ride through dirt then 35c at the minimum would be better.
At 50kmph I can see how aero factors more into the 40mm but speed is a function of how hard the rider can pedal as well. On a 5 hour ride the absorbing of shocks, much of that energy going into the riders muscles and fatiguing them, might result in higher power output capability vs the thinner ones.
9:20 and thereabouts, you're testing these tires in terrible weather, what a champ! what do you wear to stay (reasonably) dry and warm in this weather?
good comparison!! I wonder why you put the picture of the Propain in, when discussing switching between narrower and wider tires for road vs gravel; from your review of the Propain i concluded this was a semi-MTB. Not really an ideal bike to use narrower tires on then for road riding right? or did I not draw the right conclusion from your Propain video?
On your test lap you rode at 30kph, at that speed would the aero delta really be significant? I would assume the 25% higher mass is probably a bigger factor
Something everyone missed: these Pirelli 40's are actuality 38's. Dave measured the width as 39.7mm, on Zipp 353 the internal width is 25mm which adds about 2mm to every tire after being mounted. I'm sure Pirelli do this to keep the weight down and to capitalize on the "wider is better" trend lately. So to me, these tires are seriously overweight for their size. I run both GP5000STR in a 30 and 32 {2 bikes} and the Panaracer GK+ Slicks 35mm. All appear to be a better choice than these Pirelli 40's.
maybe more about the aerodinamics than anithing else. It may be harder to accelerate but it should be easear to maintain the speed and these should compensate one another and rolling resistance should be better with the wider one actualy.
Interesting comparison. It seems that weight and aerodynamics have more of an effect beyond a certain width than lower rolling resistance. Pirelli has a 35 mm in that tire. It would be interesting to see how they perform. Could be the sweet spot. I have a titanium gravel bike with two sets of wheels. One set has 32mm Conti GP 5000 clinchers with TPU tubes and the other set has 35mm Pirelli Cinturado gravel H tires. These are my daily ride choice. The first set are my fast ride choice. They feel quite fast and are comfortable. I recently did my fastest 100k ride in several years on them. It seems they are fast. The question is, where is the sweet spot? At what size does aerodynamics and weight have more of an effect than rolling resistance? Rolling resistance is generally less with wider tires.
I'm riding the Pirelli 40mm in my commuter gravel bike comming from Schwalbe G-one bite 45mm. No gravel on my daily commute and therefore ideal for the purpose. Fast in comparison with the gravel tyres. For speed I have my aero bike in the weekends.
I also ride the 38c Barlow pass in extralight compound. So, based on your experience of trying all, unless you were racing, would you ever run 30c instead of the RH?
Not a surprise to see these results really - those roads don't look too bad and 40mm is definitely too wide for optimal speed, even if they might have other advantages. It would be really interesting to see exactly the same test with the Pirelli 30mm vs 26mm. I bet the 26mm would be faster still.
For the last 16 years the old faithful Scott addict R2 has run 19mm, fast light and GP 5000 are a good combo of hardness and speed and lightweight. At 58 I can still chase Hill climbs KOMs
No one mentions the change in trail and handling characteristics going to 40mm tires? Steering response will be slower. Bottom line is the geo of these roadbikes weren't designed for these wide tires.
@davidarthur too bad! If one plays around with online trail calculators, can see how tire change alone can lengthen trail by several mm, which is not insignificant. Recently, I had to update my fork for different rake on my 25yo titanium road bike when putting on 28c tires to reconcile the intended trail.
I personally use a 40 x 1 5/8" on the front wheel with an inner tube and a 80mm Hookless carbon rim and on the back a 700x19c Panaracer clincher with a Mavic GP4 rim, but I can't quite understand why the clincher tire won't stay on the TUB rim? maybe I've got the wrong tub glue / cement?
I know it's tires comparition, but I would like to see you David reviewing quite interesting gravel racing bike. Bianchi Impulso RC with Shimano GRX 825 Di2 groupset. Unfortunately no reviews about this bike.
23mm clincher was just simply wrong because the tube inside hold very low volume of air compared to even a 23mm tubular. I rode both so I can compare. I would choose 25mm any day of the week compared to 23. I will buy some 28mm in January. Looking forward to testing them out. 35mm is what I ride on my cyclocross bike. Cant imagine riding a 40mm lol. Great video tho.
yes they are quite different. I have the P Zero RS 32mm and they are a rather thin tire. but!! how he calculated 33 psi? thats way too low. 43-50 psi I would go for. idk if I can watch further then that.
why 35 psi? I run 59 and 57 psi back and front on GP5000 AS TR 35mm that measure 37mm on a 21mm Shimano carbon hooked rim. If I run them at 52 psi they are super muchy and 5 psi above, too stiff. rest of video gonna be nightmare I feel
I agree with you, I prefer 32mm max tyre size on my gravel, 28 on my racing and 25mm on my daily commute bike. Why 25mm on my daily commute!? Because it’s an old Cannondale Synaps and can only take 25mm 😂! But my favourite sweet spot for tyres is between 28-32 mm. really nice video by the way - thank you ☺️
I ride a 23mm in the front and 25-28 in the rear. The wide tires are good for training and skinnier tires are faster in my book. The extra weight in the wider tires will slow you up. The skinner tires in the front give better steering abilities and I have found skinny tires are better in the wet!!! Yes skinny is better in the wet find and believe this is because the smaller contact patch does better in displacing the water vs the wider is more likely aquaplane. This may be why it appears to be more crashing on the pro circuit even with disc brakes. I have been racing since 1988 when the best tires were 19mm and I miss them!!! Depending on the road surface and rider+bike weight 23mm-25 should be the best tire width range to work with.
Just bought a Salsa Journeyer Claris 700c ….. rode the Washburn Teravail 38s for 400 miles, upgraded to Vittoria Mezcal tubeless 44s and I think I am a bit faster with them, and I lost 4/10ths of a pound. Totally love the wider tires
I've got one on the back, but with the 40mm tyres there's annoyingly not enough space between the tyre and down tube :( So dry bum wet feet it is sadly
I think 32 mm on road bikes could be the sweet spot regarding speed. I use 40mm in the road but I also do gravel. I think that Pirelli is not the fastest 40mm tire. I think the Hutchinson Caracal 40mm can be as fast as the 30mm Pirelli.
The increased rotating mass of the heavier tires will have a larger penalty over any aero losses. I think 35mm would be the optimal all season tire width. Have you ever tried schwalbe g one speed tires? I run them all year round and they superb, fast rolling, hard wearing, amazing grip in the wet and excellent puncture resistance.
On chip seal and cracked pavement I seem to like 30 better than either 28 or 32. All Pirelli on wheels with 30 mm external width. 40 wouldn't fit on my road frames.
A deeper gravel wheel or say the number 6 wheels would offer better aero benefits. Obviously the weight is a factor but a wide external and internal wheel will be better
40 mm tyres may well feel more comfortable than 30mm ,but when you’ve got a big stripe of road spray up your back and crack, because your bike has no mudguards, notions of ride ‘comfort’ become a bit academic.
David, please get an aero sensor so you can control for environmental factors. Also, the Pirellis in 40c are not the same as the 30c and have significantly higher rolling resistance
David, if you ever get the chance; I would love to see you do a piece on Xentis High X wheels. I'm trying to figure out if I can run 28mm tires on a carbon mag wheel with a 25mm internal width. And I can't decide if 30mm tires would make my new SuperSix too slow. Thank you 🙂
Nice and timely video. I will be waiting on the follow on. For full road I have been running 28mm front and 30mm rear on my Aeolus Pro 51 wheels I use on my Domane and on my Checkpoint. The wheels have 23mm internal width and with a few month riding the tires are about 1.9mm wider than their labels. I used to run 25mm which are more aero but I have not fast so the low pressure shock absorbance with low rolling resistance makes more since for me. I may not be fast but if I can reduce the time for a century ride that makes me happy. I think next I'll put a 32mm on the rear but keep the 28 on front. I think maybe the 30mm to 35mm would be optimal. The 40mm just getting too heavy. Hope you can add more incite. I'll need new tires in a few months. :)
Where is that "proven"? If the tyre is equally well matched to the rim in both cases, 23mm will be more aerodynamic. Total drag (CdA) is a product of drag coefficient (Cd) and frontal area (A). Frontal area is always greater with a wider tyre. How would drag coefficient be significantly greater with a narrower tyre if the tyre/rim combination is the same shape?
Merry Xmas to you and the viewers :) Can you make a video on what rim-width values do we need to look for? For eg 19mm internal width is optimal between certain values, but over that the shape of the tyre does not give any positive rolling resistance, by being "too much" for the rim, etc. I found that 32mm is perfect for my cheap 19mm width wheelset, but the same branded tire with 38mm width doesnt fit so well?! Also this 38mm tyre is a Panaracer Gravelking Slick - just like the Rene Herse Barlow PAss presented in the video
So sick of this ridiculousness! Just go ahead and buy a mountain bike already! At 220 lbs, I still ride 25’s at 120 psi. Yes they are a little uncomfortable, and rattle my fillings out of my teeth, but they are hard as diamonds. Which in turn gives me zero rolling resistance, and almost zero flats. Sure wider with lower psi is more comfy, but on my road bike, I look for speed first, and comfort a distant second. The very widest anybody would ever need is 28mm. I always get a kick when somebody rolls up next to me with 32’s running like 50psi, riding on their rims, Expecting to hang, then getting their doors blown off!😳😂🤣🚴♀️🚴♀️
I was an amateur racer from 1980 to 2008, and back then the widest road tire anyone used was 23's. At one time I even tried 18's, which turned out to be not a good idea. But this whole switch to tires of 28 and even 30 width for racing seems really weird to me.
Just noticed I have 25 mm front, 23 mm rear on my older bike... and I have been riding this combo for several years, probably didn't see they were not the same size when I bought the tyres! On my newer bike I tried to mount 26 mm front and 28 mm rear, but couldn't see any difference with 2 x 28 mm. I guess I'm too slow.
I run the GravelKing Slick R-Line TLR in 40 mm. They are lighter than the Pirelli, quick, reasonably priced, hold pressure well when run tubeless, and are holding up pretty well.
@@mmpbandYes, the 2024 model. I lose around 10psi over three to four weeks. I’ve only had one puncture and it self sealed. No sealant seeps through the tyre either.
Do you live in a southern (warm) climate where roads are relatively smooth? For those of us that live in climates that experience harsh winters which destroys roads, you'd have to be a glutton for punishment to ride anything narrower than a 700x28.
Tubeless doesn’t work on 23mm. Been there, done that. The pressure is too high, the tyres tend to fail in a big way, and the sealant can’t deal with it. For me, 28 in min for tubeless
Dude.. The way to test the difference in speed of the tire is to ride at the SAME power output on both tires and see which is faster over a given distance. Go do it again the right way. 1) Get the bike up to a given speed and watt output, THEN cross a line at that wattage output and CONTINUE to the finish line. 2) repeat with the second tire. Then compare times at the same watt output. Much more accurate. And make sure you use the same tire pressure. Then after that, you can try various tire pressures like a bit lower with the wider tire with SAME wattage output. maybe vary the wider tire pressure by intervals of 5 psi for several runs. Go do it again and lets see the real differences.
Need to lower the pressure in the bigger tyre to give the equivalent tyre contact pressure. Need to do at least 5 tests of each ABA to give any credible statistical significance.
The best way to test tyres is with a roll down test, but the one time I did that loads of people moaned... I wanted to test on a course that allowed me to assess the tyres not only for power difference but also for general ride feedback like comfort, grip etc over a road of surfaces, and to test at the actual pressures you would use
David goes out test riding in the pouring rain in winter so that we don't have to.... another way to look at it is, ride big tyres in winter so you put out more power and don't have to be out so long in the muck to achieve the same effect... then jump on your summer bike when it perks up and boom, you fly. My own testing has somewhat confusingly shown that go even bigger and there is negligible difference in speed between a fast 40c gravel tyre (Conti TS) and a 2.1 Thunderburt (48C), some tyres seem to defy the laws of physics if supple enough...
Seems incredible to think that back in the mid-70s Pros were riding 23mm tubulars in Paris-Roubaix.
Steel frames and skinny aluminium rims would have taken a little of the sting out of it, but not much.
I've been riding the Pirelli 40s for a couple months and they're wonderful. No, not the fastest, but they make up for it in a number of other ways - grip, ride quality, puncture resistance.
Thanks for the great work as always, David! I believe you missed out on the true grail width: 35mm! The P Zeros come in 700x35 and don’t suffer from the same weight penalties as the 40s, and just feel faster overall than the 28s I was riding previously. I’d be interested to get your perspective on the 35s as compared to the 30s and 40s.
Or a 35mm P Zero vs a 35mm Schwalbe G-One RS 🎉
I’m actually riding the Goodyear VectorR Z35s designed for Zipp wheels. I couldn’t wait for my desired PZero 35s to be launched, so I took a flyer on the Goodyear’s and am surprisingly happy with them! I think your comment and my experience point even further to 35s being the true sweet spot with a growing number of options.
@@Sb23global Def. a sweet spot with a mix of fast gravel tyres and pure slicks. Quite a lot of manufactures as well.
@ArnageLM is there a 35mm Schwable? I have the 34mm One pro haven't seen a 35mm size. Maybe Europe only?
35mm RH slicks tires would be perfect. Or 38mm(really 40mm) if the frame can fit it in the supple casing.
I have started riding vittoria corsa n.ext 700x34s (the clincher version) with TPU tubes. They are only 315g which is pretty good for a tyre that big. Ride really nicely and don't feel too slugish.
Merry Christmas, David!! I really appreciate your efforts in creating great content that’s very enjoyable to watch!! Looking forward to 2025 content!!
Thanks! :)
As someone who has decided to go the gravel bike serving as both my road and gravel solution, Im pumped to see the wider road tires so my bike handling wont change too much when swapping on road wheels
do you notice your gravel bike becomes 'twitchier' with a road tire vs. gravel tire?
I ask 'cause I'm trying to pin down the best tire size for an all-road/light gravel bike to be used purely as a dedicated road bike.
though I figure 32mm is probably the Goldilocks size for that.
Would be great to see the 40mm slick vs g-one rs!
Both in 35mm would be interesting!
I would think that 30 to 32 mm on road bikes hits the sweet spot on road bikes.
I pretty much ride the widest tires I can fit:
28 mm on my road bike; limited by the brake calipers. I'm tempted to try 30 mm on my next tire.
45 mm on my gravel bike; limited by the fork legs. My Gravelking X1-R inflate to almost 48 mm.
2.4" on my XC bike; limited by the fork legs and rear stays.
On 28c I wish I could lower the psi more for maximum comfort but scared of getting pinch flat. I hope 30c could fix issue. The downside would be the weight?
@@diegoeleazar9154 I doubt you'll be able to notice the weight difference between 28 and 30 mm tires.
Would 30mm definitely not fit? I'm wondering what to buy 28 or 30 on R8000 cantis.
@@thelmaviaduct It's hard to tell as wheels and frames flex when you ride, especially when riding out of the saddle. My gravel bike seemed to clear the gravelking tires while in the bike stand. But I recently noticed that the front tire rubbed into the right fork leg; so I will sand down the side knobs.
@hansschotterradler3772 Cheers 👍🏿
I have a pair of these exact tire coming in today for road use on my Revolt. Mounting on 303s wheels, coming off 28's it should be interesting. Thanks for you review, can't wait to see how they feel myself!
wide tyres like this is extremly picky on tire pressure + - 3 PSI you will feel something is off. Either too mushy no corner grip or too highpressure slow and vibrations. Keep in mind some 35mm road tires measure 37mm or so, for me 35-37mm is sweet spot and for some 32mm that actual is 34mm. I guess you run tubeless. I find Sram calculator to be spot on maybe add 2-3more psi in front tire then calculator tells
@@allemyr yeah, I figure on the 23mm inside diameter, they should be right around 40mm. I haven't checked rims pressure chart yet, but on my 28th I've been running about 50 to 55 PSI with good luck.
Merry Christmas! Be interesting to see how the 35mm go. Clearly 40 is too wide for most of us, but maybe 30 is not the sweet spot? But I hate heavy wheels, so I’ll stick to 25 or 28mm for most of my road riding, especially if it’s hilly. Maybe 30 in the winter…
Split the difference! I’ve been riding 35mm Panaracers and loving it.
I have as well!
Me too. Tserv ProTite in 35mm are great.
Happily riding 25mm to maintain aero performance with my wheels. I'm not giving up 2 watts. Nowai.
dumb
@@cricanwa dumb would be running 26mm tires and having 1mm of tire extend beyond the rim width. Think of the aero man. This is serious, I have places to be, I can't jeopardize my times for that extra tire width.
I'm riding 35 mm G-One RS for all road stuff as well as group rides with pur road bikes.
I've seen my share of flat tires but never had one. I hit potholes that took out the rider in front of me with no problem. What's 0.2 more kph, when you lose 10 minutes changing tubes?
5% difference for greater safety. Not a bad trade off. Having hit road debris in amongst autumn leaves on gone over the handle bars! I have 3 dropbar bikes 27mm, 35mm, 40mm. Nothing fancy!
35mm is sweet spot for all road - x road / light- aero gravel
No.
Yes.
Can you test new Hutchinson Caracal Race TLR 40 against these? They're 4w faster according to bicyclerollingresistance while being semislick gravel tire.
Seconded!!
I tried them last summer on my gravel paths, and got new PRs. Yeah, I was using Hutchinson Overide 38mm before, so, the gain was obvious.
I have the Pirrellis , Caracals Race, and Terra Speeds in 45…the Caracals and Terra Speeds feel the most supple and speedy. If you want a fast big road tire get the Rene Herse 44c slick, or the Conti GP5K ASTR in 35.
100%. My local roads here in the California desert are straight up garbage. I’ve been riding a track bike with 28 touring tires and slime tubes for years, but much prefer my “road rides” on my cx bike with 45c gravel tires. My next road bike build will be with 35s to split the difference. Tried 30 and 32 tires and they were fast, but they get eaten up by the road conditions here.
Would love to see the comparison between this tire and the g-one!
Cool, I'll get on that in the new year - I'm really intrigued to see what the difference is as well
@@davidarthurlove to see you compare the G- One RS in 35mm with these.
From what the Schwalbe rep told me they are as fast as the Schwalbe Pro One tyres but the side lugs may affect speed/grip in the wet on the road.
Be interesting to see.
Always fancied a set on an Allroad style bike!
You need to try the Hutchinson Caracal race tyres, stupidly quick for a 40mm semi slick gravel tyre, very supple as well
Seriously low RR 🎉🎉
A couple of comments: what tire width you select has to be dependent on your road or trail conditions. A wider tire has to have very rough roads to justify its width. I would say it’s similar to how you would approach the amount of suspension you need in your mtb. Rough trails need more, smooth trails need less. Re your reference to the Plus tire movement with MTB’s: lots of journalist tested the plus tires and repeatedly proved that they were better especially in rougher conditions yet they didn’t sell well. I think the failure of the Plus tires was down to consumer rejection rather than a lack of merit. Most consumers felt that they ‘looked’ heavy and slow and that was enough to kill that movement. The industry was quick to bail on it also because they didn’t want to stock yet another tire size. It’s easier for them if everyone was on the same tire and wheel size.
PS: hat off for riding in such shit conditions!
I think rider weight is going to have an impact on this as well. At 250lbs I like 32mm and I want to try something in the 35mm range next as that the max size i can stuff into the frame. Another thing is the effort to get the bike up to speed from a stop and lighter tires help with that.
My experience is that super wide tyres feel a lot slower than they are.
I swapped some 32mm Sworks Mondo tyres for 42mm Sworks Pathfinders, and the bike felt sort of sluggish / slower to accelerate etc on good roads , but the data over a whole range of my normal rides was very similar only slightly slower in average.
Some rides were actually faster over the same course at the same average power..
But whilst the wide tyres are amazing on bad roads / gravel etc, I definitely prefer the feel of the 32mm tyres - just feels more lively and fun, so they’ll go back on when the weather is better.
I agree. I've ridden the same tires on 42c and currently 32c. The 32c is faster. I think 32c is the best all rounder for tarmac riding. If you're gonna ride through dirt then 35c at the minimum would be better.
I love my Continental GP5000 AS 700X35
32mm Conti 5000 TR is perfect for my riding.
At 50kmph I can see how aero factors more into the 40mm but speed is a function of how hard the rider can pedal as well. On a 5 hour ride the absorbing of shocks, much of that energy going into the riders muscles and fatiguing them, might result in higher power output capability vs the thinner ones.
@davidarthur My hands would freeze riding in that cold and rain. Don't know how you ride gloveless in those conditions...
9:20 and thereabouts, you're testing these tires in terrible weather, what a champ! what do you wear to stay (reasonably) dry and warm in this weather?
good comparison!! I wonder why you put the picture of the Propain in, when discussing switching between narrower and wider tires for road vs gravel; from your review of the Propain i concluded this was a semi-MTB. Not really an ideal bike to use narrower tires on then for road riding right? or did I not draw the right conclusion from your Propain video?
On your test lap you rode at 30kph, at that speed would the aero delta really be significant? I would assume the 25% higher mass is probably a bigger factor
Bang on. At 31kph he's not getting any aero differential
Something everyone missed: these Pirelli 40's are actuality 38's. Dave measured the width as 39.7mm, on Zipp 353 the internal width is 25mm which adds about 2mm to every tire after being mounted.
I'm sure Pirelli do this to keep the weight down and to capitalize on the "wider is better" trend lately.
So to me, these tires are seriously overweight for their size.
I run both GP5000STR in a 30 and 32 {2 bikes} and the Panaracer GK+ Slicks 35mm. All appear to be a better choice than these Pirelli 40's.
Is the power difference due to rolling resistance or the extra energy required to accelerate the extra weight?
maybe more about the aerodinamics than anithing else. It may be harder to accelerate but it should be easear to maintain the speed and these should compensate one another and rolling resistance should be better with the wider one actualy.
Interesting comparison. It seems that weight and aerodynamics have more of an effect beyond a certain width than lower rolling resistance. Pirelli has a 35 mm in that tire. It would be interesting to see how they perform. Could be the sweet spot. I have a titanium gravel bike with two sets of wheels. One set has 32mm Conti GP 5000 clinchers with TPU tubes and the other set has 35mm Pirelli Cinturado gravel H tires. These are my daily ride choice. The first set are my fast ride choice. They feel quite fast and are comfortable. I recently did my fastest 100k ride in several years on them. It seems they are fast. The question is, where is the sweet spot? At what size does aerodynamics and weight have more of an effect than rolling resistance? Rolling resistance is generally less with wider tires.
I'm riding the Pirelli 40mm in my commuter gravel bike comming from Schwalbe G-one bite 45mm. No gravel on my daily commute and therefore ideal for the purpose. Fast in comparison with the gravel tyres. For speed I have my aero bike in the weekends.
I also ride the 38c Barlow pass in extralight compound.
So, based on your experience of trying all, unless you were racing, would you ever run 30c instead of the RH?
Not a surprise to see these results really - those roads don't look too bad and 40mm is definitely too wide for optimal speed, even if they might have other advantages. It would be really interesting to see exactly the same test with the Pirelli 30mm vs 26mm. I bet the 26mm would be faster still.
For the last 16 years the old faithful Scott addict R2 has run 19mm, fast light and GP 5000 are a good combo of hardness and speed and lightweight. At 58 I can still chase Hill climbs KOMs
My best all-around for speed and comfort is 38mm
would love to see you try a 34 vs a 30 see if it gets faster or not
Agree would be interesting to see if that’s the Goldilocks
28C tires work great for me,Happy Festive season and don't eat to much Turkey.💯🎅🎄🎄
No one mentions the change in trail and handling characteristics going to 40mm tires? Steering response will be slower. Bottom line is the geo of these roadbikes weren't designed for these wide tires.
This one was. And I ran out of time to talk about that in this video though did film a whole section , it’s an interesting topic though for sure
@davidarthur too bad! If one plays around with online trail calculators, can see how tire change alone can lengthen trail by several mm, which is not insignificant. Recently, I had to update my fork for different rake on my 25yo titanium road bike when putting on 28c tires to reconcile the intended trail.
I personally use a 40 x 1 5/8" on the front wheel with an inner tube and a 80mm Hookless carbon rim and on the back a 700x19c Panaracer clincher with a Mavic GP4 rim, but I can't quite understand why the clincher tire won't stay on the TUB rim? maybe I've got the wrong tub glue / cement?
I know it's tires comparition, but I would like to see you David reviewing quite interesting gravel racing bike. Bianchi Impulso RC with Shimano GRX 825 Di2 groupset. Unfortunately no reviews about this bike.
23mm clincher was just simply wrong because the tube inside hold very low volume of air compared to even a 23mm tubular. I rode both so I can compare. I would choose 25mm any day of the week compared to 23. I will buy some 28mm in January. Looking forward to testing them out. 35mm is what I ride on my cyclocross bike. Cant imagine riding a 40mm lol. Great video tho.
Need to get to the Zipp 303 xplr and wider rim width than 25mm internal. Rims are coming out to optimize a 40mm tire.
375gr for the 30mm? Is that for a TLR option? I have 30mm PZeros at 245 grams ❤
I'm looking for slicks in 45mm....any suggestions? Turning my gravelbike into beachracer the cheap way
Rene Herse, but no cheap.
Did he compare the normal Race TLR with the RS version? The 40mm has a much higher casing thickness and puncture protection.
yes they are quite different. I have the P Zero RS 32mm and they are a rather thin tire. but!! how he calculated 33 psi? thats way too low. 43-50 psi I would go for. idk if I can watch further then that.
why 35 psi? I run 59 and 57 psi back and front on GP5000 AS TR 35mm that measure 37mm on a 21mm Shimano carbon hooked rim. If I run them at 52 psi they are super muchy and 5 psi above, too stiff. rest of video gonna be nightmare I feel
32 for endurance and 38 for my gravelbike 👌
I agree with you, I prefer 32mm max tyre size on my gravel, 28 on my racing and 25mm on my daily commute bike. Why 25mm on my daily commute!? Because it’s an old Cannondale Synaps and can only take 25mm 😂! But my favourite sweet spot for tyres is between 28-32 mm. really nice video by the way - thank you ☺️
형님 수고가 많습니다. 최근에 추세를 보면, 타이어의 발전이 튜블리스 휠셋의 발전과 함께 진행 되는 것 같습니다. 이번에 테스트한 40mm 타이어도 나중에 더 완성된 기술로 만들어지게 되고 와트 차이와 무게 차이는 더 줄어들겠죠
I ride a 23mm in the front and 25-28 in the rear. The wide tires are good for training and skinnier tires are faster in my book. The extra weight in the wider tires will slow you up. The skinner tires in the front give better steering abilities and I have found skinny tires are better in the wet!!! Yes skinny is better in the wet find and believe this is because the smaller contact patch does better in displacing the water vs the wider is more likely aquaplane. This may be why it appears to be more crashing on the pro circuit even with disc brakes. I have been racing since 1988 when the best tires were 19mm and I miss them!!! Depending on the road surface and rider+bike weight 23mm-25 should be the best tire width range to work with.
of course they are slower, no need tests, just like a 28 or a 30 is slower than a 25... it is physiscs.
I run the Schwalbe G-One Speed 40mm tires on my Trek Checkmate SLR 9. Roll well.
Surely the rider weight should be a factor.
A 100kg (220 lbs) rider would benefit more from 40mm than a 70kg rider
Just bought a Salsa Journeyer Claris 700c ….. rode the Washburn Teravail 38s for 400 miles, upgraded to Vittoria Mezcal tubeless 44s and I think I am a bit faster with them, and I lost 4/10ths of a pound. Totally love the wider tires
Think you need to invest in a set of mudguards for the Sika. See what Father Christmas brings you 🧑🏻🎄
I've got one on the back, but with the 40mm tyres there's annoyingly not enough space between the tyre and down tube :( So dry bum wet feet it is sadly
I think 32 mm on road bikes could be the sweet spot regarding speed.
I use 40mm in the road but I also do gravel.
I think that Pirelli is not the fastest 40mm tire.
I think the Hutchinson Caracal 40mm can be as fast as the 30mm Pirelli.
Check Tufo Speedero. Even lighter, good rolling res and can last 5000 + kms
For speed alone on a road bike on good roads, the sweet spot is a lot narrower than that - 25mm probably if you are reasonably light.
Caracal Race 40 are fast, the normal TLR less
I’ve been using Barlow pass for 10 years😊
Links to the studies?
The increased rotating mass of the heavier tires will have a larger penalty over any aero losses.
I think 35mm would be the optimal all season tire width. Have you ever tried schwalbe g one speed tires? I run them all year round and they superb, fast rolling, hard wearing, amazing grip in the wet and excellent puncture resistance.
i wonder if actual suspension would be more efficient because larger tire adds alot of frontal area so i think it's not very good for aerodynamics.
just something simple as having thicker saddle might do it.
Unless you're racing, why would you care about aero?
@@Andy_ATB Yes aero is for 40+ km/h and even at this point rolling resistance is probably more important.
375g for a 30mm road tyre is insane
Narrow is only more aero if you don't have the right rims, Unfortunately there are no rims that would smooth the air from these 40mm tyres
I’m riding 700x40mn Hutchinson caracals on my gravel bike ,they are really fast for a gravel tyre ,unfortunately they don’t get a lot of coverage
Caracal Race.
On chip seal and cracked pavement I seem to like 30 better than either 28 or 32. All Pirelli on wheels with 30 mm external width. 40 wouldn't fit on my road frames.
Ride what feels good to you. 38’s and 40’s feel damn good to me….
A deeper gravel wheel or say the number 6 wheels would offer better aero benefits. Obviously the weight is a factor but a wide external and internal wheel will be better
40 mm tyres may well feel more comfortable than 30mm ,but when you’ve got a big stripe of road spray up your back and crack, because your bike has no mudguards, notions of ride ‘comfort’ become a bit academic.
almost nobody talks about the higher weight of these wider tires, where are all the weight weenies at????
Continental GP5000 AS 700X35 is the best tire I've ever ridden.
Now we are go crazy.
30 are more than enough on a roadbike
DJ wants his thumbnail back
David, please get an aero sensor so you can control for environmental factors. Also, the Pirellis in 40c are not the same as the 30c and have significantly higher rolling resistance
David, if you ever get the chance; I would love to see you do a piece on Xentis High X wheels. I'm trying to figure out if I can run 28mm tires on a carbon mag wheel with a 25mm internal width. And I can't decide if 30mm tires would make my new SuperSix too slow. Thank you 🙂
Bullshit. 23 to 28 is faster!
Nice and timely video. I will be waiting on the follow on. For full road I have been running 28mm front and 30mm rear on my Aeolus Pro 51 wheels I use on my Domane and on my Checkpoint. The wheels have 23mm internal width and with a few month riding the tires are about 1.9mm wider than their labels. I used to run 25mm which are more aero but I have not fast so the low pressure shock absorbance with low rolling resistance makes more since for me. I may not be fast but if I can reduce the time for a century ride that makes me happy. I think next I'll put a 32mm on the rear but keep the 28 on front. I think maybe the 30mm to 35mm would be optimal. The 40mm just getting too heavy. Hope you can add more incite. I'll need new tires in a few months. :)
And 28mm with fairly wide rims is proven more aero than 23 with skinny rims, aero is never that simple as skinny wins. Especially with wheels.
Where is that "proven"? If the tyre is equally well matched to the rim in both cases, 23mm will be more aerodynamic. Total drag (CdA) is a product of drag coefficient (Cd) and frontal area (A). Frontal area is always greater with a wider tyre. How would drag coefficient be significantly greater with a narrower tyre if the tyre/rim combination is the same shape?
I don’t know how people want more comfort than speed . People have become so weenies .
Interesting video Arthur. But when are you uploading the seka spear review? I'm hyped😂😂
Merry Xmas to you and the viewers :) Can you make a video on what rim-width values do we need to look for? For eg 19mm internal width is optimal between certain values, but over that the shape of the tyre does not give any positive rolling resistance, by being "too much" for the rim, etc. I found that 32mm is perfect for my cheap 19mm width wheelset, but the same branded tire with 38mm width doesnt fit so well?!
Also this 38mm tyre is a Panaracer Gravelking Slick - just like the Rene Herse Barlow PAss presented in the video
Well, most of us don’t have road bikes that can take a 40mm tyre, so it’s a moot point
What about 28 vs 30mm and 32mm? Is 30 and 32mm slower or faster?
Hi David
Very informative video as always and well worth a watch 👍👍
🎄happy Christmas 🎄
Thanks 👍
I want a 33mm.
So sick of this ridiculousness! Just go ahead and buy a mountain bike already! At 220 lbs, I still ride 25’s at 120 psi. Yes they are a little uncomfortable, and rattle my fillings out of my teeth, but they are hard as diamonds. Which in turn gives me zero rolling resistance, and almost zero flats. Sure wider with lower psi is more comfy, but on my road bike, I look for speed first, and comfort a distant second. The very widest anybody would ever need is 28mm. I always get a kick when somebody rolls up next to me with 32’s running like 50psi, riding on their rims, Expecting to hang, then getting their doors blown off!😳😂🤣🚴♀️🚴♀️
23mm is fine
28-30 mm max are sweet spot
On smooth roads, yes. On rougher roads, 32-34mm can be the superior choice.
I was an amateur racer from 1980 to 2008, and back then the widest road tire anyone used was 23's. At one time I even tried 18's, which turned out to be not a good idea. But this whole switch to tires of 28 and even 30 width for racing seems really weird to me.
V.interesting. Excellent work Dave. If poss,can you also do this with the other sizes in-between.
Keep the good work up.
🎉🎉🎉
Great suggestion!
In 2027... "Why 60mm tires are the future"...
Inflated with helium...
Still using 20 year old alu wheel/bike, 25 feels more agile than 28, stick with 25. Before that using 23 for 15 years!.
Just noticed I have 25 mm front, 23 mm rear on my older bike... and I have been riding this combo for several years, probably didn't see they were not the same size when I bought the tyres!
On my newer bike I tried to mount 26 mm front and 28 mm rear, but couldn't see any difference with 2 x 28 mm. I guess I'm too slow.
I run the GravelKing Slick R-Line TLR in 40 mm. They are lighter than the Pirelli, quick, reasonably priced, hold pressure well when run tubeless, and are holding up pretty well.
Do you run the 2024 model? I’ve seen they have been updated recently. The old model was useless tubeless. The new one should be better.
@@mmpbandYes, the 2024 model. I lose around 10psi over three to four weeks. I’ve only had one puncture and it self sealed. No sealant seeps through the tyre either.
To me, even 30mm is too wide for the road. I'd still run 23's if they were available in tubeless!
Do you live in a southern (warm) climate where roads are relatively smooth? For those of us that live in climates that experience harsh winters which destroys roads, you'd have to be a glutton for punishment to ride anything narrower than a 700x28.
@@buster.keaton I've still got my race bike from the 80s and it feels okay with 23c tyres. My newer bikes however, hurt with anything less than 28c.
Tubeless doesn’t work on 23mm. Been there, done that. The pressure is too high, the tyres tend to fail in a big way, and the sealant can’t deal with it. For me, 28 in min for tubeless
@@paulwoodward8265 didn't matter in the 80s it wasn't a thing, did I mention anything about tubeless? I do know a bit about bicycle tyres and wheels.
@@harryrowland4734 He's not replying to you.
Dude.. The way to test the difference in speed of the tire is to ride at the SAME power output on both tires and see which is faster over a given distance. Go do it again the right way. 1) Get the bike up to a given speed and watt output, THEN cross a line at that wattage output and CONTINUE to the finish line. 2) repeat with the second tire. Then compare times at the same watt output. Much more accurate. And make sure you use the same tire pressure. Then after that, you can try various tire pressures like a bit lower with the wider tire with SAME wattage output. maybe vary the wider tire pressure by intervals of 5 psi for several runs. Go do it again and lets see the real differences.
Wrong channel to expect that type of testing 😂
Your method doesn't take into account the extra power required to get a heavier tyre up to speed .
Need to lower the pressure in the bigger tyre to give the equivalent tyre contact pressure. Need to do at least 5 tests of each ABA to give any credible statistical significance.
The best way to test tyres is with a roll down test, but the one time I did that loads of people moaned... I wanted to test on a course that allowed me to assess the tyres not only for power difference but also for general ride feedback like comfort, grip etc over a road of surfaces, and to test at the actual pressures you would use
40 mm tyres are not considerd gravel tyres its only called a gravel tyre when its has a width of 47mm or more
Does tread pattern not matter to you then?
Too much talk.
There are chapter links so you can skip ahead. And there are shorts for 60 second attention spans ;)