POUR OVER - Osmotic Flow Vs Full Saturation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ม.ค. 2021
- The osmotic flow pour over coffee technique has been used in Japan and Korea for quite some time, but it's very different than how we've been taught to brew in Western specialty coffee circles. In this video I put this method head-to-head with a full saturation pour over to see what I've been missing out on.
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Just as a note from someone working in coffee in Japan, this "Osmotic flow" method is pretty traditional and you'll often find it being practiced in a Japanese "Kissaten" (basically Japanese for coffee house) where the roast is dark, brew temperature is often lower, and the grind is coarser than in typical V60 recipes.
All of these factors contribute to producing a heavier, rich, less acidic cup of coffee as is often preferred by Japan's more elderly population.
As I've practiced both methods, the main factor in getting the asthetically pleasing dome at the beginning of the "osmotic flow" method is usually the coarser grind size.
Thank you for adding some technicolor to this picture. I notice alot of reviewers here are basing a review off of their poor technique. Seems to be a tough one to get down pat. I personally enjoy trying to achieve a good osmotic flow each morning, Its a challenging method for those of us used to common V60 methods.
I'd be curious to hear what you think of the resulting flavor? One would have to assume that since it's a common method it must taste good, otherwise people would try something different. I guess what I'm really trying to figure out, without wasting a pound of good coffee experimenting, is whether the results in this video aren't caused by insufficient experimentation and dialing in.
@@gregspektor7423 Roast level also plays a major role in which brewing technique will emphasize that particular roast’s pleasing characteristics.
@@JosiahAnduril interesting. What in your experience was the best roast for this method?
@@gregspektor7423 Dark roasts with coffees that lend themselves toward more body and richer flavors (as fruity coffees with clean and clear flavors).
“If we are making coffee and it doesn’t taste good, what’s the point.” My favorite part of the video haha. Easy to get lost in it all sometimes and forget that part.
It’s true! We definitely all need a reminder of that from time to time, myself included. Thanks For watching!
So true! There is often a tendency to gravitate towards something just because it's new or quirky or interesting. (But the opposite can also be true: to reject something merely because it's new or different.) And this is so true in the world of wine and spirits, as well. Let the taste be the guide! (But even what we think we are tasting can have a significant psychological component, as well. What do we think we are going to experience?)
Taste is the WHOLE reason we’re even using the pour over method right? Otherwise we’d be drinking percolated coffee😬
For the osmotic flow method, you need a medium to dark roast, coarse grind, and lower brewing temperature for best results. There should be a lot of CO2 release during the bloom, otherwise that may be a sign that your beans aren't well suited for it. I just tried it for the first time with some beans that have been yielding a pretty bitter result using the normal pour over method, and I was surprised at how much better balanced the final cup came out. I think it will be my go-to for darker / more bitter roasts, and I'll use the normal method for lighter / more acidic roasts.
Hi Spro, for osmotic flow a very precise and minimally agitating stream of water close to the bed is essential in my opinion which is hard to achieve with a Buono like kettle spout design. Also as you have stated in the video even if you couldn't achieve the perfect technique in this regard, aim of the brew is very different compared to the fruity and vibrant coffes we are used to. Smooth and rich in body is the name of the game, probably shaped by a very different coffee culture. Anyways, great video and really would like to taste coffee you roast but with not being in US probably not possible in near future. Take care
Absolutely! I bought a new kettle with more of a downward flow to try this more. There is definitely some major differences in the coffee cultures that’s for sure. I can see this being great for dark roasts and for body. But you’re right about the fruity and floral coffees just aim for a different outcome altogether.
Sometime soon I’ll be shipping internationally again!
Hope you revisit this comparison in the future! I got very similar results as you in the first couple of days with this method as well. When I finally got to controlling my pouring flow though (e.g. by getting the spout as close to the bed as possible), the osmotic flow method did produce really good and well-balanced cups of coffee for me.
Great vids, keep em coming!!
been waiting for this!
Let me know your thoughts on the video.
Videos getting better and better every time. Great videos lately man and great coffee!
Thanks Ian! I appreciate that!
Nice man. Great vid. Interesting that they taste so different. What’s what I love about coffee and great coffee. Doesn’t just happen. Keep smashing it bro 💪🏻
Well done, Sir! I truly appreciated all aspects of this video, from the science, to your kindness and humility. Thank you!
Been Osmoticking it for a few weeks and loving it, friends and customers also gave positive feedback, more clarity, acidity and sweetness and also more consistent cup to cup. My own tweak in the method is to stir the bloom to maximize the contact between the dry ground and the water then just a single but slow center pour all the way
On my office desk, I have a Moccamaster Cup One, which is an SCAA certified single cup brewer. I've run it with the lid off and watched how it dispenses water. It looks very similar to the osmotic flow method and produces a cup that matches the pros/cons you mentioned. I will say that it makes a consistently OK cup of coffee with any light roast I've thrown at it, but occasionally makes an outstanding, very sweet cup, with the right kind of coffee.
An example of uneven extraction is moccamaster coffee maker. With poor design of it's shower head and uneven coffee bed, it can still be certified by SCA, and lots of people think it can make great coffee. That means you can make good coffee without (very) even extraction.
And when use osmotic method or any other Japanese traditional method, you need to use coarser grind, coarser than you use in this video. Those method are not designed for fine/medium grind. With very little agitation, it becomes easy to get tons of channeling, gas pockets and dry clumps, so you need use coarser grind to avoid those situations. The cup comes from osmotic flow method should be mellow and clean without astringency. But it's tricky, because you need to pour very slow for those coarse grind to balance the flavor.
Interesting video as always!
Thanks Cameron! I appreciate you watching my friend!
Very nice video, as always! I will also give the direct comparison a try
Thanks! Let me know how they compare. Would love to hear some other folks opinions about it.
@@Sprometheus i will let you know. Btw was it the medium roast cafec filters you used?
Yeah, enjoyed this. Will try it in the morning
Thanks for watching! Let me know how it comes out!
I enjoyed this video, but I was hoping you were going to cover the Orinoco flow. Sail away pony boy!
Wow! I never knew there was a difference. Osmotic flow is actually the style of pour over I learned to make. I have of course since learned of the “normal” full saturation way, but I guess I learned backwards 😅 I can’t qualify why, but the way I learned, it’s still the method I prefer. I think it produces a better brew, maybe a little closer to French press.
I think an important point to make is that this method needs a coarser grind than your fully saturated method. This way the water spreads to all the grounds faster and more evenly. From what I've heard a steady slow pour is actually preferable to small pulses as you agitate more evenly. But then brew time is between 3-4 minutes depending on your dose! I can actually achieve higher and more even extractions more consistently with this method ;)
What paper filter do you use? Can it be done with a cloth multiple use filter? I hate to waste so much paper.
@@rbmanb I'm not sure whether or not you're asking me, but sure! I think this recipe is from Japan, where cloth filters are very popular!
@@sebastianbjoernestad Thanks, yes, was asking you (:
I might be on to something here. Will give it a try tomorrow.
@@sebastianbjoernestad just an update, the cloth filter here stinks, will soak it in sodium bicarbonate and try again.
Another update, since cloth filter kind of asks for finer grind and osmotic flow for a coarser one, there's some contradiction there.
Also, my cloth filter still doesn't have the nuetral taste I want, and I might give it a try again after buying a new one.
P.S. cloth filter doesn't necessarily need a fine grind, I guess a finer grind is not relevant as long as there's no full immersion.
hey you're super close to 50k subs!
Getting there!
I've noticed this method tends to work well with dark roasts. To me even fresh roasted dark coffee tends to taste ashy but using the saturation method results in an overwhelmingly ashy taste. The flat/muted characteristics of the osmotic flow method reduce that characteristic and gives people that standard "coffee flavor"
Interesting! I was thinking that dark roasts may be key in this one after trying it out with a few medium and light coffees. I’ll definitely give it a second shot once I find the right coffee to run it back.
Makes sense
I like how the puffy crust of coffee on top looks. Kinda resembles bread rising in the oven.
Great video!
I understand where you're coming from with the bitter aftertaste, but I tried grinding much coarser around the 10-20 mark on the niche (anti-clockwise) and got really tasty results.
Did you try coarser grind settings?
I tried a few different grind sizes and coffees and generally ended up with a similar outcome. I’ll go a bit coarser, darker, and higher in dose as I continue to try and understand this method more. But as my friends from Japan have told me this method is more focused on body and smoothness, and I could see this working well for darker coffees.
I actually hate acidity in my cup so I found osmotic flow to be quite appealing when I tried it
Can’t remember where I learned it but this was the first pour over method I learned way back when. Thought it was strange then too.
This is interesting, because the people over at Onyx coffee recommend a tight center pour for a lot of their coffees and I always get super complex flavors when I do that. They says it's cause a V60 extracts from the sides and bottom, so a U-shaped bed makes sense. Then again I also just do four equal-sized pours, not the fussier technique from Cafec.
Love your videos.
Thanks Jerry! I appreciate that,
Really want to get Cafec's Tsubame kettle for best flow. I'm currently using the standard Hario kettle and I find it really takes a steady hand to control flow. Asser from The Coffee Chronicler made a video just recently on Osmotic Flow pouring techniques and using your body rather than just your arm which I found really helpful.
The kettle seems like a big factor for sure. A lot of the kettles, including the Hario I have, have a forward flow. I just bought a Timemore kettle to give me more of a control and downward flow.
Spro… I may have missed this: did you switch to a “standard” Hario V60 filter for the 2nd, more normal pouring? I need to research the Cafec filters. Very interesting video, as usual.
I would love to see you do the same test, but add the Clever Dripper in the mix. I actually do a hybrid brew using a kind of osmotic brew for the first minute, followed by 2 minutes fully submerged. Then drain the Dripper, which usually goes pretty fast. Best of both worlds. I also go back and forth with stainless mesh and paper. So many taste profiles with one device and one coffee!
Just adding my two cents here. The trick with osmotic flow is to use Cafec's flower dripper which has a much slower flow where the paper filter sticks to the sidewalls more. I tried your experiment a while ago albeit less scientific, and had similar issues until I got a flower dripper and it all made sense. I'm not going to say it makes a brew that is comparable to the modem 'full saturation' but I get where Cafec is coming from. Also bare in mind, that a lot of the principles that Cafec use within their company are about the Good Ol' Days with roasting styles, brew methods and tastes (hence the un-rinced paper filter).
Anyways, awesome video as always. Waiting until next week now 🍿
For sure! I need to snag a flower dripper and try it with that as well. But ive seen plenty of folks on Instagram doing the osmotic flow with V60’s so I figured it’s possible for sure.
And yeah, even though Cafec is great I appreciate them for sure the coffees used and in the videos seem to be a little more towards the second wave style.
Thanks for watching and the support! Got some poppin’ videos coming in February!
I watched that CAFEC Osmotic video before and that bloom they had was absolutely INSANE! That coffee must've been roasted a couple of hours at most before they shot that.
Your thoughts on the difference between the two methods makes sense, to expand: The osmotic technique over extracts the inner coffee and underextracts the outer coffee, therefore the uneven extraction averages out but the flavour balance doesn't due to what is being overextracted. The saturation technique gives more consistent extraction for all the coffee giving better flavour clarity.
Have you thought about switching to a plastic v60 instead of the glass? Gotta be some improved extraction there for you.
And perhaps, to add on to this, do darker roasts have less sensitivity to how different they taste between under/over extraction? My perception (I could be wrong) is that darker types of roasts have less nuances and less "delicacy" (if that's the word) to their flavor profile; maybe a bit less sensitive to brewing subtleties? And perhaps in the case of darker roasts, the flavors of less extracted and more extracted brewing are more complementary when mixed together than is the case for lighter types of roasts? And maybe the fact that darker roasted coffees extract more easily and quickly than lighter roasts also plays a role here.
This reminds me of Chunghyun Kim brewing method which consists on "rebrewing" cofee over the coffee bed.
It is extremelly weird, does give a strange sweetness to the brew but it is exotic as hell.
That sounds interesting. Will have to look it up.
I tried osmotic flow too and indeed it gives less acidity to my liking. However I can also understand many people like a more easy coffee. As you said playing around is nice but I also prefer the more standard v60 recipes. If you vary those is amount of pulse pours you also notice difference
I'm having a totally different result. You should try the modified osmotic flow method by Asser from the Coffee Chronicler. The acidity I got was far more pleasant and not the astringent and harsh acidity I often got from a full immersion.
I think osmotic flow is geared towards the medium end of light roast.
I live in Asia so the coffees are often roasted darker than western light roast, so I have to compensate to get the acidity I want. In fact, I’m not the only one changing the way I brew to accommodate the darker roasts, the cafes here do it too. The center pour is also not the only way to brew using osmotic flow. Really low agitation circle pouring is a better way to brew with osmotic flow. I’m also aware of some people using tiny pulse pours to brew osmotic flow as well, sort of a drip by drip method. Imo, a good tasting osmotic flow brew tastes similar to a melodrip brew.
Also, the stream from your kettle looks like it might be causing too much agitation for osmotic flow.
What would your thoughts be about using a Hario switch as intended for just the bloom phase and then opening it up like a normal V60 for the rest of the brew? I saw Hoffman do something similar on one of his videos about a smart brewer and it made me more interested in getting the Switch.
I have moved to a filtered immersion and the results are quite good. Hoffmann recently posted a comparison of pourer vs immersion and immersion won. I wonder if you have any thoughts on this.
immersion didn't win, it was more consistent and easier to reproduce...but, when you make that perfect v60, nothing is better!
I started out brewing coffee in french press so I agree with Hoffmann, immersion is better. But I fucking hate cleaning the shit out of my french press so I threw it away.
@@syhusada1130 the clever dripper is easier to clean. I have jerryrigged an old.filter cone to serve as a clever.
I saw many baristas do this ‘osmotic flow’ in S. Korea and Japan, mostly seen in the very slow pulse brew that works the bloom, but they were almost always done with medium-dark coffee roasts (was the preferred roast profile at the time), like you said, is because of the foamy co2 release. I’d be curious to see you experiment with darker roasts to see if different methods yield different results, including this type of method
For sure, it seems like those darker roasts are still pretty favorable in that region. I definitely plan on giving it go once I get ahold of a dark roast. It’s oh my list for sure
Well said. I'd add that the water temperature is generally lower as well. I think for this particular style + darker roasted coffer it was recommended to take the temp down to 90 celsius.
It's widely use in taiwan as well, and there are multiple TH-cam channels teaching the osmotic flow, and there are so many different way of doing that, one for each region of coffee, and they use different kettle for different coffee too, try this channel: vvcafe by 學長
@@haroldlauhoyan as someone who lives in the US, I think there’s a lot of coffee knowledge from Asian countries that could be learned, I’ll check it out!
@@Yourbeautyformyashes Yes I agree I also live in the U.S and belive that the coffee content and skills we learn about are very eurocentric/western and largely ignore any skills or brewing methods from Asia, for a continent that make sup, what, 1/3 of the global population (?, could be wrong on this) we know so little about the coffee culture and brewing methods there; with the exception of knowing about a Phin, "Turkish Coffee", etc. would definitely love to know more from that continent, but I struggle to find sources.
Love the topic! Great video! My experiences with a similar experiment are very different. In my experience the osmotic method lacks body but is mega sweet (up front), never bitter, and has a really long aftertaste. My standard recipe V60s have more body and risk being bitter when I try and get them sweeter. Patrik Rolfe’s 13/200 V60 recipe, while small, seems like a great compromise between the two methods. Try it!
Interesting! Thanks for watching and the thoughtful comment. Are you using light, medium or dark roasts?
@@Sprometheus I’m using light to medium roasts. I will say that I always grind more coarse for the osmotic method. In fairness, I’ve never done the experiment with the same grind size. I couldn’t pull off a slurry (initially typo’d as “slutty”, lol) V60 with my osmotic grind size. It would drain in
@@TooBuz right on, thanks for the info!
If you wish to see a large difference in flavor again while using the same beans, the Kasuya 4:6 method gave me a cup that was beyond balanced and quite complex! I started with an okay bean and it later turned into one of my favorite cups after trying this new method!
Same here. I think this Method can really elevate less distinctive beans. Have been using it on and off for the past year but I always default back to it
I have tried the 4:6 a little bit, but I’ll have to revisit it!
I think that cafec recommends using 1/3 on the center and the rest spiraling out. Not only around the bubble dome, but to the borders of the muddy mixture. But I don't like it anyway - too bitter and astringent and generally beverage tastes like a darker roasted coffee for me. BUT I also was not able to reproduce 1:1 what cafec did. I think they used more coffee than 30g and indeed a really dark roast.
Yeah they do recommend 1/3 in the center I believe. Their video does leave a little to your imagination. It didn’t turn out well for me either, and you’re right I do think they used a dark coffee and a much much larger dose.
Interesting video. It made me wonder if there were certain coffees and/or roasts that this technique might be better suited to a flavorful cup. With all things coffee, from the bean, to the processing, to the roast, the age, the grind, and the brew, along with other things that didn't immediately come to mind, there are an incredible amount off variables and experimenting with them all would be an impossibly long process. Is it even possible to guess as to what beans and roast this might be best for? I don't know... so far, I've stumbled into things that seem to work and stick with them because I have a job and a family and can't devote all my time to coffee, no matter how interesting and appealing that sounds.
Dark roast. i've watched too many Japanese videos with this style. This is their traditional way of brewing coffee
Hmm, I've had a very different experience. Just recently bought a dark roast coffee that I've never had before and tried something similar. Yesterday and the day before I brewed two cups with the "normal" method. Both were bitter, ashy, and astringent. I brewed two cups today with osmotic flow, and they were sweet, with notes of caramel, chocolate, vanilla, and hazelnut. No bitterness. Definitley had to dose a lot higher for osmotic flow, though. I'm not dissing your or anyone's preferences, just making the point that mileage can vary a LOT when it comes to coffee brewing, and I hope people will give this a shot even if your first impressions of it weren't great.
Very informative 👍👍👍 . As a Barista, I will try the osmotic flow to my regular guests who are always having pour over coffees. Can I also try this method on Chemex???
If the point of osmotic flow is to get all the water to go through the bed, then the Chemex already does that!
Interesting vid as per! Beard looking extra bushy at the moment too aha
And with regard to the flow method, I feel like I'd rather switch my brewing method to get those differences in taste than change my flow method, but as you put, to each their own
Thank you! And it is a little bushy! I keep trying to grow it out but it seems like that’s as big as it gets.
Also, yeah to each their own. If you’re happy with your method stick to it. But it’s definitely fun to go outside your standards from time to time. That’s one of the things I love about coffee.
I wonder what would happen if you modified it so the bed kept level but you still poured it the same. Like stiring or adding just enough water to swirl it to flatten it but not fully saturate it
Spro...in general would you say a medium roast bean when brewed is more bitter than a dark roast. I feel like this is the case but my friends tell me I'm full of beans. Thanks
Great video! I actually really enjoy osmotic flow cups.
I really like the cup you used at 6:00!! Where can that cup be purchased?
Thank you! I appreciate that. Any tips with the method?
Also, that’s a Kruve Propel cup, you can get it on their website: www.kruveinc.com
@@Sprometheus the main thing that I noticed is that you pour much faster then me for osmotic flow. I essentially pour as slowly as I possible can while maintaining a constant flow (it’s basically droplets coming out of my kettle).
You could also try adjusting grind (I go significantly coarser then for normal pour over).
Thanks for providing the link! Some beautiful cups!
I found pretty much the same thing it tasted unevenly extracted I had a few nice cups but those ones I kinda messed up and submerged more of the bed leading to a more even extraction
Glad to hear I’m not the only one in that camp. I mean, of course it can change based on coffee, and maybe a better technique in the process. But the outcome I feel like can’t change a ton based on the pours focused into the center.
This video makes me remember when I make a whole CCD DOE last year to find my perfect extraction.
And I had to throw away the results when I am changing beans 😅
Oh yeah, I mean, extraction percentage is a fun thing to dig into a bit. But it’s all over the place once you change a single variable.
@@Sprometheus do you think a refractometer is something that is genuinely helpful for a coffee nerd to use at home as a way to enhance one's ability to brew delicious coffee more consistently? I'm talking a non-professional; just a person who loves good coffee and enjoys the journey. Does it truly improve your abilities? Or just add confusion to an already mysterious thing? And would this be a different answer in regard to pourover vs. espresso?
I saw the Cafec one and I was like....how do I get that mushroom-like bubble??
I saw The Coffee Chronicler do a slightly different version of the Cafec method. Have you tried that one? Wondering what your thoughts are on that brew method and if it tastes different. I've done that one and your hybrid method, and I've enjoyed both!
I saw his video as I was prepping this one up. It seems like he had some of the same issues I had. Which makes me feel like the roast level and dose is such huge factor in getting it work like Cafecs video.
@@Sprometheus if you were to change (or maybe you have) the roast level and dose, what would you recommend? And grind level too. I tried it on coarse grind and it seems to work well? Maybe I'll try a bit finer and see if I'll get a different taste.
Bought the cafec filters, can you use them for the fully saturated pour overs?
Interesting, because I had the exact opposite experience using the metal filter - I found that the Osmotic pour over was much smoother, thicker body, with no bitterness. I was surprised honestly, as I actually do a technique that is somewhere in between the two. I aim to fully saturate to the edge in a spiral, but only with enough to saturate the ground…and let it drip out each time. But that’s my own tech with the metal filter.
What is the app he shows when talking about extraction percentages?
I'll steal a saying I've heard in the whisk(e)y community. The best coffee is coffee that you like, the way you like to drink it.
That’s well said.
Got some magnificent bastards in here it seems 😁
I’ve seen this center pour technique in video tutorials from Japan and Asia. I assumed it was done for performance to show off the bubbly CO2 dome. It seems like a waste to essentially only brew the center grounds. I believe Japan has a preference for darker roasts, so maybe this center pour technique works better to highlight their preference for smooth and rich notes rather than acidity.
it's always about the final taste. You can do fancy methods or maybe acrobatic stunts or something while making coffee, but the final result/taste will always be the important factor. hehe
im falling in love with osmotic flow! it produce consistent result every time. I love uniformity. I usually play around with coffes to water ratio to adjust on the strength. OF works best with dark roasts
Osmotic flow works when the variables are right: specialized kettle (even Hario and Fellow kettles flow a bit too much), roast (dark and fresh with lots of CO2), temperature (low), grind size (course). This is a way to brew dark roasted coffees, which are commonplace in traditional kissaten, but avoid some of the bitterness and astringency that can happen when brewed like most conventional v60 methods made for lighter roasted, modern coffees. I actually think the biggest variables here are the lower temperature and coarser grind, which allow less extraction of some of the more bitter and astringent flavor compounds you can get if you brew dark roast hotter or finer. It is a little too inconsistent for my preferences, but can be fun with a Japanese sock filter and some dark roasted coffee! More often I modify the variables for the full saturation method to still get a more complete, even extraction without the bitterness.
I'm pretty sure I remember that Melitta's instructions for using their pour-over system back in the '80s were basically in line with the "osmotic flow" method mentioned here. So I assume that "osmotic flow" is _probably_ the original intended filter-coffee method.
Did we forget that lots of Americans were brewing exactly this way back in 2009 when we first got our hands on V60s and were following the example of Japanese baristas? There's a reason that this style of brewing has fallen out of favor outside of Japan. No disrespect to the OG's--Japanese coffee culture has had a massive positive impact on specialty coffee internationally. It's the same story as traditional espresso in Italy. They invented the form, but you can't deny that advances have been made since then.
Curious if you've seen and have any thoughts on the Chanho tornado method. ... and if you don't know now you know...
I don’t know, but now I must look it up so I can know. Haha
@@Sprometheus Yeah buddy!! They say knowing is half the battle ;)
And… have you tried this with a more brew-centric grinder like a Fellow Ode? I loved my Niche Zero for espresso, not quite so much for other brew methods save vac pot.
What microphone are you using? You sound quite good for not having the mic in view!
I use a Maono Mic with a pop filter, it was super reasonably priced on Amazon and has been a huge upgrade from my Blue Yeti.
@@Sprometheus Thanks!
This is the main reason why pourover is a whole different science in its purest sense...
I'm gonna go with what my local barista specialty coffee tells me to do, which is never pour on the outer ring. Japanese style. He knows what he's doing and his hand drip tastes perfect for me.
By the way, I stay in Taiwan, which is culturally influenced by Japan in many ways since the Japanese colonialism here
It's really intriguing in that, because coffee is such an organic product, and undergoes (relatively speaking compared to lots of other agricultural products) minimal processing from it's natural state, it's a different thing pretty much every time. So many variables. And then, there is the whole phenomenon of taste. We human beings don't have the exact same experience of taste from day-to-day. Another pile of variables effect this (time of day; health; what we have eaten; temp and humidity, etc.). It's a constant mystery! But, for sure there is much we can do to bring the scope of these many sectors of variability into a more narrow band of predictability.
It makes much sense what you say, here. It would seem to me that a more standard V60 method aims to achieve a more consistent and even extraction, and brings a certain sort of focus/clarity to the flavor profile which might benefit some types of roasting more than others.
What glasses are you using?
I think that the osmotic flow might be suitable for dark roast coffee, if I'm not wrong in Japan they tend to prefer this level roast, so using this method will '' smooth '' the astringents notes and clear some bitterness ;I think you should do another video where you brew a dark roast coffee, one :osmotic flow the second brewing :fully saturated... I think the results will speak from itself... I'm quite sure applying this brewing technique with a dark roast will make a real difference
Dark roasts do appear to be at least more prevalent in Japanese coffee culture then they are here. I will definitely give it another go with dark roasts and a new kettle soon.
Thanks I'm curious with the results, I need to try also but I don't want to have my grinder messy and greasy, maybe I'll use an old Skerton grinder 😏😬
Isn't the reason third wave coffee nerds generally say that too many fines in your pourover grinds muddles and degrades the flavor of the finished cup because it produces a wider range of extraction and also slows down the brew time too much? I definitely find for myself that too fine of a grind--or too many fines mixed in with the desired particle size--produces a poor tasting cup of pourover. And this is why we put emphasis on the quality of the grinder--so we can get consistent particle size, especially, with no more than a certain minimum proportion of fines, and a certain max proportion of boulders. This being said, there does seem to be a point of diminishing returns in trying to continue reducing the proportion of fines below a certain point (as your prior video seemed to suggest). In other words, some small proportion of fines is not necessarily deleterious (maybe, even positive in some way). But, when the relative proportion of those fines hits a certain threshold, they start to have a noticeably negative impact.
This seems to me to be related to the topic of what you are experiencing here. It seems what ties these together--grind size and consistency, and pourover brewing method--is the extraction characteristics. What specific extraction characteristics of a particular coffee produces the most pleasing result? What is the window of acceptability, and when do changes (either in particle characteristics or brew technique) begin to move outside this window so the result starts to taste bad, rather than merely different?
The Niche Zero should be pretty consistent in terms of variation & reducing fines. The video he referenced had a much, much coarser grind. Maybe we're still too fine?
I've tried different methods and it's so surprising to me that years ago by trial and error I came up with... Pretty much the same method as you and Chad Wang. And all that without a minute of training, all self made and based on my own incentive to learn and read about coffee. Nothing beats this long, single pour in sweetness, intensiveness and the sheer wideness of the flavour.
If you’ve found a way that works it’s definitely from a lot of trial and error. Sounds like you’ve done for work!
How do you think this would work with a thick filtered chemex?
Osmotic flow using dark roast coffee which having CO2 level higher than light roast..
Using shorter ratio and coarser grind size..
The idea is pulling all the flavour using osmotic membrane which created naturally because of the difference of concentration inside the 1 inch pour area and the outside..
That's why it need higher dose on a small dripper, so u can get your water poured without agitating outside those 1! inch area and creating osmotic membrane.
This is interesting. I went and watched the cafec video too. It reminds me of the 4/6 method with how quickly the water pulls through. And then at the end of the video they show the bed of the “immersion” style and it’s not how any of us want our beds to look, so it’s interesting to see a fairer comparison
I was confused but the bed they showed at the end too. I think their full saturation is just pouring all the water in at once. That’s the only way I could see that bed occurring naturally.
Can I ask what setting you have on your grinder for a 2 cup v60.
For the V60 standard I use a 38.
@@Sprometheus thanks very much. I am always interested in what others are using. I find unless i am outside the number range like dot at 12 o'clock position. If I stick to the numbers the number of fines shoots up and the bed gets super muddy. I shall keep playing. Thanks again and keep up the great work :-)
Very interesting topic, thanks for the video. I had no clue what osmotic meant until now basically 😅 every pour over V60 recipe I've ever seen has been a saturation method.
Thanks for watching! And totally, the osmotic flow is brand new to me too. I hadn’t heard of it until a couple months back. The saturation method was all I saw and was taught from day one in specialty.
Shouldn't you wait at least a week after the coffee is roasted?
Крутое видео, кофе -мммм
The TDS is easy to explain I think. Same ratio of water to coffee resulting in basically the same strength.
You had me at v60.
nice
Thanks for watching!
"I'm just a dude playing with coffee on the internet" 🤣👍👍 love this haha.
I rather struggled with the "saturation" method, have found the so called osmotic flow one more forgiving. I am getting flat beds, though, so maybe it requires gentler pouring, if you pour gently enough I think what's happening is a bed of water build up - if you have enough CO2 in there you get more "dome" as well but that's more of a side affect.
If pouring too hard I suspect some water in the centre is getting forced through. Grind can be fairly course and it possibly favours a slightly lower water:coffee ratio. I think the main benefit is really that you can grind coarser, creating less fines - especially on less high end grinders. The saturation method requires a pretty bang on grind and I don't think it works well for low doses as there isn't enough bed of coffee to hold back the water.
the other thing is that this method basically works for any brewer
Osmotic flow is my favourite Enya song
Just tried the method minutes Ago
It gets better as it cools down. IMHO. Used a fruity, honey ish caramel noted beans
Osmotic flow sounds pretty similar to how a standard coffee maker works if you use a medium coarse grind and don't do any swirling or stirring.
That’s true. It’s very similar..
4 tablespoons coffee 10 oz water=20 grams coffee, 300 grams water. Close?
So what we learnt today? Basically one more tool to objectively measure your coffee can be questioned, if you are aiming to make a good tasting cup.
For sure. Extraction percentage is kind of a nebulous variable that isn’t specifically tied to taste. In the end, the flavor is key.
@@Sprometheus Yeah right. The way I looked at the refractometer was certainly just a guidance on whether or not you have a chance to extract something more from your already good tasting coffee. Some beans just taste nice even on lower percentages (at least in pour overs) and it really could be a measure on whether or not it's worth experimenting with heat/finer grind to see where you can push things.
Can we osmotic on the other paper?
Yeah, it should work on any conical paper filter
Beautiful 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎
2:40 it takes plenty of practice to have sturdy pour; as for your osmotic flow method, think you have plenty of improvement still, as practice makes perfect.
I bought a new kettle recently, I’m sure that’ll help. But not sure if the Osmotic flow is for me, at least based on the times I spent doing it.
You guys drink the coffee you make ?
Do a u tube search on pour over coffee in space... that’ll get you thinking...
Also check out Today's Coffee Channel here on TH-cam. They feature this osmotic flow all the time, and will give you a good feel re. the technique, roast level, grind level and possible water temp when brewing.
I seriously can't understand how come you make drip coffee in a light roast filter that doesn't go in more than 8:00. Mine were always hollow, slightly bitter, somewhat aromatic, but mostly watery and bland. I couldnt make a V60 that went faster than 5:00. Gave the filters to my buddy for him to test them out, awaiting his opinion
That’s interesting. I haven’t had any issues like that. Mine generally run just a bit longer than normal brews, but nothing noteworthy.
@@Sprometheus I even tried gringind the coffee much, much coarser than what I would for a 600ml Chemex and simply poured straight all the 300ml of water in, no preinfusion. Boom, 5:30. I dunno, maybe I just had some faulty filters 🤷🏻♂️
@@ile_klikow that’s wild. I wonder if your grinder just creates more fines than the filter is equipped to deal with. What are you grinding on?
@@Sprometheus comandante 🤷🏻♂️
So it’s like a Nel Drip?
Not sure I’m familiar with the Nel Drip...
@@Sprometheus check out Blue Bottles book on it and let me find a link to a video of where they got the inspiration on it. It’s the total opposite of what we are taught to do with coffee.
@@Sprometheus the difference between the Nel Drip and this is they use a high amount of coffee 40-50g with 200g of water really slow with a really coarse grind.
The ‘osmotic’ pour just means more extraction from less coffee, with the outer ring just being waste.
They use close to 40gr and a more coarse setting, also they aim at a great spectacle since that coffee bead rising is very pleasing to watch. The taste of course is inferior so no surprises here. Nice video