NOTHING you put out is boring! That is why we follow you for greater understanding that we are riveted to learning. (laypersons) Thank you sooo very much for all that you do to use this to educate folks who then may champion in their districts and communities. What a service you have done, thank you so much for CONTINUING and not giving up on educating through us lay folks to an end which may affect others.
Nothing is boring? I dare you to watch the long video about Florida's new building codes after watching the shorter one. But that's the only example I can think of. 😀 They say of some actors that you could watch them read out a phone book. But I'd much rather see Josh read out building codes and explain why things are as they are, and what is important and what not. It broadens the mind to get a glimpse of how a professional like him views things, especially when it's communicated in such a masterful way.
I was just thinking the same thing, absolutely nothing is boring he says he makes it so interesting! I wish he would of been one of my teachers I would of learned so much!!
@@BuildingIntegrity I'm not even in the trade and I've watched all your Surfside collapse videos. Very very well done, informative, definitely not boring!! Thanks for the videos; we know it's a lot of work...
Another fascinating video, this is the sort of involved detail that the average layperson would probably never even stop to think about when looking at a building. I've honestly learned so much since I started watching this channel.
Most of us found you and your channel because of your explanation of the Champlain Towers collapse, but it's become so much more than that now. You're a great resource for helping people understand how buildings are built and maintained. The way you explain blueprints makes it easy to comprehend. You've also taught us about the "politics" of a project. I enjoy knowing that you and your channel are making me smarter every time I watch a new video. Josh, thanks.
Excellent video! You should do an analysis on the old Glass Bank building that used to stand in Cocoa Beach. That building was an engineering marvel at the time it was built in the 1960s during the space race, but turned out to be ripe with engineering failures, a co-owner who added two windowless stories to the roof some 15-20 years after it was built (lots of corruption and scandal), and who lived in that penthouse almost a decade after the rest of the building below was effectively condemned from hurricane damage and the need and expense that the other co-owner didn’t want to spend to bring back up to modern fire code in order to make functional and habitable again. I’ve always been interested in the structure and history of this building. Thanks again Josh!
@@BuildingIntegrity Both Bright Sun Films and the Proper People did excellent videos about and inside the Glass Bank. You might find either or both interesting if you were to discuss the build.
A hole story... In our building we have four floors: B, 1, 2, 3. But do we? Below the basement level is the dungeon: [and this being a monastery you can imagine what medieval appliances might be in there] It is a set of tunnels for water and steam return pipes to live in. Off of this there are some chambers that once upon a time gave access to pipe chases leading to other buildings. Here there be sump pumps. This dungeon level then turns left, that is to say west and continues for another 50 feet or so, but the floor rises up so much that only a cat could pass through it. And the last time I checked the cats are not licensed plumbers, welders or electricians. But the utilities are in there none the less. At the distal end of this tunnel there is a right hand turn and it opens up into a basement level tunnel. A brick lined tunnel that goes under the parking lot to the power house building. Off of this tunnel there are chambers that housed condensate return equipment (now disused--but with an access to the sidewalk above), and another tunnel with a sandy floor that takes pipes to yet another building. But to continue with our first (or was it the second tunnel?) we enter the basement of the power house where it circles around the platform that supports our boilers. I have gone through these tunnels to install CAT-5 cables for our computer system. Perhaps I should have had the spiders to the work, there sure were enough of them. And so once I got to the power house I found a conduit through which I could introduce my cable, and there install a network switch, for I still had to go back down into the tunnel to bring the cable to the next building in our complex. But wait, this is not all! For above the third floor there is the attic, and this too had to be fitted with fire sprinklers, but this had to be a dry-pipe system, since here in North Dakota we would not want pipes the the attic, or even on the un-heated floors to freeze. Then above the attic is the roof. The south and east wings are peaked, but while the north wing pretends to be peaked it really has a flat roof, and has ventilation machinery located there on. Dungeon, Basement, First, Second, Third, Attic, and Roof, that is a lot of building any way you count it. But now, I am 74 years old, and so someone else will have to maintain this stuff.
This may sound naive, but shouldn’t commercial buildings or multi-family buildings always be held to the higher standard because of the potential for harm to a large number of people?
There is international code they must follow but often design plans change over time after initial ok and concrete rebar ir brick mortar can fail over time or graft where suitcases of money are exchanged allegedly or contractor tries to save money by cutting corners hoping no one notices.
In engineering we make decisions based less on things that do not have firm definitions ("If this fails will it substantially injure three or more people?" which is another way of asking "How can we know how many unlucky people there will be?") than on things that do ("If this fails is there statistically significant-5 sigma or better-chance that such a failure will not cause another failure or the death of any occupant of the structure?"). This is why some things that seem like they should hinge on the intended use of a structure are not decided that way.
I could listen to you for hours, makes me wonder if I missed my calling in life. Love to hear you break down the new laws and if they help more than hurt. Thanks Josh.
I used to work for the John D and Catherine T MacArthur foundation and back in the day John MacArthur wanted to put a 13th story on the building. But as he had the tallest building at the time the town had set the height limit to be that particular building’s 12th floor ceiling. As MacArther was a rich stingy lawyer, he lifted the 12th floor and inserted an 11 B underneath.
OK I get your example. I worked for 34 years in a hospital which was on a hilltop site. On one face the grade level entrance was at the Basement level. On an adjacent face was a grade level entrance on the Ground floor (one level above the Basement), and on an opposite face there was a grade level entrance on the First floor, (two levels above the Basement.) There were the following occupied levels: B, G, 1 thru 9, plus a 10th floor restricted access mechanical floor, and a restricted 11th floor elevator machinery level. So it can get pretty technical on how many stories a building has.
I think it would have been good to go at least a little bit into what Section 505 says about mezzanine floors in the video - at least mention the fact that if the floor area is too large relative to the floor underneath, you can't call it a mezzanine any more and have to call it a separate story (with an atrium connecting the two stories).
True, it didn't matter for my particular case study so I didn't mention it. There are also other items to consider and controlling factors for determining "stories" but I couldn't get into all of them in this video. The goal was to just show that the issue isn't as straight-forward as we might initially think.
@@BuildingIntegrity Definitely good to keep it simple for sure - there's a lot of complexity that you could get into that is better off avoided in this sort of video - I just feel like it's worth emphasizing that you could call the loft area a mezzanine because it meets all the requirements of being a mezzanine, it's not an arbitrary decision. Just saying it can be a mezzanine and not a story because it's between two stories, without mentioning the other requirements, feels a bit like circular reasoning.
@@BuildingIntegrity I'm curious too about the definition of a mezzanine. For example, how many stories is the Luxor in Las Vegas? Is it 30 story building, or is it a ~4 story building with 26 mezzanines in the 300 foot tall first floor?
I was wondering the same. Otherwise I could simply have a small hole in the floor, then call the upper floor a mezzanine instead of a story and would be able to circumvent any restrictions that apply once I reach a certain number of stories.
I would be curious if the engineer didn't have to change anything in Surfside because the penthouse was ALWAYS there in the design but the Arch/Owner knew they had to play games with the drawings and submissions to get it "legally" built?
this was covered in past videos. the penthouse was not detailed in any of the structural plans submitted to and signed off on by the city. Neither were most of the balconies.
@@fishonkayakadventure I understand that but it doesnt mean it was not taken into consideration during the design. I have personally worked on projects where things have been taken out to get them under budget, through permit or approval or whatever but the structure itself was still designed for them hoping that money will be found during construction or soon after and it would not require major revisions.
This was a very interesting lesson about differences and definitions of building codes etc. I was immediately reminded of a Coen Brothers film from the early 90's called the Hudsucker Proxy. The movie started out with the sole proprietor of the company jumping out the 44th floor of the Hudsucker Building, to his demise. As the board of directors convened afterwards, the company president, played by Paul Newman, speculated as to why the man jumped 44 floors to his death but one of the directors interjected that there was also a mezzanine at the ground floor. That caught my attention and for the past 30 years or so, I thought the character may have fallen 45 stories, "including the mezzanine," and not 44. Now I know correctly it was 44 stories.
One tiny fact would have made this a lot clearer. Mezzanines can only be so large as compared to the story they are on before they are no longer a mezzanine. I was confused until I read the comments. Otherwise, quite a good video. I now know a little bit more of how much I don't know.
As a Florida resident, I believe that zoning restrictions mean nothing. It only takes minimal political influence to obtain a waiver. Additionally, the building inspectors do nothing regarding flagrant longterm violation of zoning restrictions. Pitiful.
When I was a county inspector I faced this problem. A new high rise jail needed a rooftop equipment room larger than code allowed without calling it a story. The need was driven by redundant equipment to keep the jail operating during equipment outages. We ultimately went to the state board and we’re granted a variance. Thank you for the video.
You learn something new every day... I had no clue the American spelling of "storey" is without the "e". ( not being sarcastic) . Great video as always!! I've been watching all your Surfside collapse videos. Extremely informative!!
OMG!!!!!!! I have just heard after listening to you since Surfside something that affects me personally in another state. You stated that insurance has to cover new laws and ordinances on top of their coverage. Just happening RIGHT NOW to me with a new roof as the codes have changed, and they now must do by codes a freeze thingy (lol whatever is called) and they MUST do a metal thingy from the boards of the roof to the front of the such/behind the gutter. Wow! The thing that the insurance company said is the roofer must prove! Wow! Thanks and I couldn't figure out what they were talking about as to such until your video!
You are so right -every word in the law is important. I almost missed my dream because I took the common meaning of the law to mean all of a class, when it did have an exception. That one word made all the difference.
This entire issue, grade level, story count on stump(stilt) construction etc has plagued the local city council here in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, to the point where the council recently just gave up trying to enforce code, just allowing owners to modify to whatever standard. Brisbane is a hilly River city, and until the 1970s, most residential buildings were entirely timber construction, mounted on stumps…stilts..to deal with whatever undulating contour issues the plot had. Constantly flooding areas were originally allowed to raise underfloor ‘head heights’ to exactly nine foot, however, in many areas this provision failed to protect the dwelling from flood. Legal process from litigation, insurance, stubborn owners etc. continued to create such a Grey zone of non compliance where the Council simply decided to allow a free for all. This provision only applies to existing buildings, the locally known as “Queenslander “ houses, timber buildings surrounded by a wide veranda, rooms within having french doors access to the veranda to allow cooling breeze in Humid Summers. This type of building are impossible to complete to modern code standards, so are no longer built here. Most carry a heritage listing, further complicating any modification work.
I expect Global Weirding to create more issues like you mention as more people seek to move their houses up onto stilts instead of vacating land they'll never be able to sell.
Fun fact: What you call the first floor here would be called Erdgeschoss (ground story) in Germany. And the second story would be called the first story.
Shady as it might have been, I dont believe it was a major factor in the collapse. I think the main issue was the water intrusion on the pool deck weakening the steel reinforced concrete of the parking garage for decades. Other than targeted draining and proper waterproofing, I think maybe engineering steps to avoid domino effects as much as possible should be emphasized on. I think the spalling was from the water and not from being overloaded? If the penthouse would cause an overload I think the damages would have looked diferent? Would be interesting to see typical overload characteristic damages as an example in a video, I think it could help HOA's be more aware of upcoming problems.
I think the issue with the penthouse is it's just a lot of additional dead and live load on a structure not designed to have 12 stories. It's an additional floor system (did they pour a roof, then add additional flooring weight or did they poor the original roof to be a floor?) and an additional roof system, plus a condo's worth of fittings and furniture for the existing column system to hold up. The Sampoong, Versailles, and Dhaka collapses were heavily attributed to the addition of additional stories/floors w/o proper redesign. There's rarely one sole contributing cause.
@@BuildingIntegrity This vid is about the code, not about engineering, and the code is to the engineering loosely as the law is to morality. Personally, I wish we could get off of the international code, after the corruption of recent years in international bodies like the WHO in their covid policy and the ISO pushing ESG agenda. Centralized power corrupts, and internationally-centralized power corrupts absolutely.
It would be nice to see a video explaining how the International Building Code defines a penthouse as a storey. Canadian building codes clearly define a penthouse as a roof top space used only for service equipment.
Hi Josh, I am not sure if you can access it form the US, but the BBC has released a 1hr documentary on the collapse - Why Buildings Collapse. Some interesting survivor interviews and additional footage. Thank you for the fascinating content, I have learnt a huge amount from watching your videos.
Hi Josh, thanks for sharing. I leave comments to those that have already given great insight's to this subject. Personally after watching this video, your clients building is a 2 (two) story building. I go through them and click on the thumb's-up.
@Josh: Could a builder/architect game the 'mezzanine' rule by simply having an atrium with a curtain wall going straight up to the ceiling while having multiple mezzanines, or even having an open space through the middle of multiple floors as we see in many open office buildings? Some examples would be the Luxor Hotel Las Vegas and the NY Marriott Marquis
The video didn't cover it but the building code also contains specific definitions for what can be a mezzanine and when it needs to be called another story.
Is the Luxor a single story building? Hmmm...I think it may not apply, because there is a full wall from floor to ceiling. In this video, the mezzanine did not have a full wall separating it from the 2nd story. But I'm no expert. Great question!
According to International Building Code section 505.2.1 Area Limitations (of mezzanines) “The aggregate area of a mezzanine or mezzanines within a room shall be not greater than one-third of the floor area of that room or space in which they are located. The enclosed portion of a room shall not be included in a determination of the floor area of the room in which the mezzanine is located. In determining the allowable mezzanine area, the area of the mezzanine shall not be included in the floor area of the room.” There are additional restrictions, including that the mezzanine shall be open to the room in which it is located (except for bathrooms or closets) which would rule out the individual hotel rooms of the Luxor as being mezzanines, because they are enclosed rooms, and also have, in total, *more* square footage than the floor of which they would be mezzanines.
Thank you Josh, this is actually a question I had from the start. It struck me at the start when I counted the floors but there was never mention of a 13th story after the collapse. That led me to the council, the money, why was it considered 12 stories etc. 🤷🏻♀️
Wow, so much of this seems so nit-picky, but, of course, that is what supports the whole legal (lawyers)profession! Thank you for all your effort and research to explain the minutia of building code definitions, and where problems in definition of spaces could arise. Gives me a headache just thinking about it!
It's not just about the legal profession (which involves a lot of game-playing and "spinning" the truth), but about the structure that supports buildings and thus people's lives.
As a Florida transplant for almost 30 years, information you put out is very interesting. I have met a lot of people that worked in construction all over Florida in the 1970's-1980's . The stories they told, Florida is lucky more buildings have not collapsed, yet.
Incidentally, I recently worked on a mass transit system. In the case of a metro station, the mezzanine level is a floor located between the platform level and the ground level that allows you to go from one platform to the other (in the case where there are two platforms, one on either side of the track) and to the stairs or elevators that lead to the ground level. It's essentially the level that connects the various parts of the metro station. When you have a cavernous station, it often takes the form of a bridge crossing over the tracks. If you have elevated tracks in the middle of a boulevard and the access to the station is a building on the side of the boulevard, then the mezzanine will appear to be a pedestrian crossing over the traffic lanes of the boulevard, between the aerial part and the ground level part of the station.
I find this really odd as a conclusion. Does this mean that I could have a skyscraper count as a single story building if I don’t have complete floors inside, but just a lot of mezzanines? When does a mezzanine become a floor? Is it good enough if I have an attium where I can see the ceiling 500m above me?
If a hypothetical mezzanine stops 1 foot before the end of the far left hand wall does that mean you can install an unlimited number of hypothetical mezzanines and call a property a one-story building?
"505.2.1 Area Limitation The aggregate area of a mezzanine or mezzanines within a room shall be not greater than one-third of the floor area of that room or space in which they are located. The enclosed portion of a room shall not be included in a determination of the floor area of the room in which the mezzanine is located. In determining the allowable mezzanine area, the area of the mezzanine shall not be included in the floor area of the room." So from what I'm understanding they can only add up to 1/3rd the floor area of the room it's "in", so if you have, say, a 6000 square foot room you can only have 2000 square feet of mezzanines combined. That's 2000 1 square foot mezzanines. Oh, and they have to have minimum 7 feet above and below them
There probably will be buildings with 2 double height stories that each have a mezzanine level covering 33% of the floor area which is the maximum allowed. This will give the most height and square footage without triggering compliance with the costly law.
@@Helladamnleet yes that correct. also there is an occupant load cap of 10 and has to communicate and be open to the main floor. there are some exceptions but these are the general rules
Great video, as always! I've learned more about reinforced concrete buildings in the last year just watching your videos than I have during 5 years in university. Which isn't that surprising given what my chosen specialty was...
I live in Denver and managed properties. You just answered so many questions about while so many 5 story building have a penthouses added. These penthouses go above the elevator. In some cases the penthouse is a non necessary patch on top of the building. These penthouses really have no reason to be a part of the building. This makes me a little sick inside.
IMO any space that is livable and/or more than 12'x12'x7' with the intent of occupancy should be considered a story/floor, all in all, the only reason we worry about a story is weight... so if the square footage comes over to enough to equal more than a certain percentage of the roof it should be determined to be a story, if an area built into a larger area where the floor does not add support to the area above then it might get a pass as a story...
Like an Elevator structure on the top of a building that protrudes should not qualify, but say an area that you use for pumps and other machinery could…
At what point is a mezzanine considered a story? If you completely enclose it from the rest of the structure? For example, in what you see in commercial "Office in front, warehouse in back" type buildings where they make two "floors" out of that front office area, complete with elevator, and completely enclose it from the back warehouse section. Sounds like a loophole of some sort when architects and building managers insist on calling this layout a "Single-story warehouse space with front mezzanine".
Your video refreshes the thoughts of some of us even because we may build a home that is three story and includes two mezzanines. To top that off there is also a dome. Issues came up early, in the design process, most particularly in how high the county would allow the dome to rise. That latter point can guide where you build in Florida.
Without the benefit of the cross-section, if I were simply driving by that house, it would appear to me as a 2 story with possibly a cathedral ceiling upstairs. and so this is why the technicality is so important. very good. I wonder if they could have fooled an inspector driving by.
I eagerly look for new videos when you post them. While I first found your videos of CTS, everything I have watched is just top notch. We’re I in need of structural engineering services, I would look no further than your firm. Just excellent content!
I have paused the video as Josh suggested to offer my answer to the question, "How many stories is this building?" My immediate answer is it is a four story building. However, nuances suggest it will be judged a two story structure as the parking/stilts/storage/basement will be judged to be below grade, and thus not counted. Likely the loft/mezzanine will also be exempted out as the measure to rafter from main floor will be the critical judgement. If I am correct in my hypothesis, and the rules are so full of holes a four story structure is magically counted as a two story structure, it would seem the Florida legislature must amend the code to require all structural floors to be counted. I will also note at this point we do not know if this is a single home structure. If the structure continues in a townhouse like configuration, with units sharing walls, it may trigger the condo rules. This may or may not offer clarity. It may simply make the judgments more confusing. Let's return to the video now and see what happens!
Just what i expected! This is indeed tricky to determine. More so when English is not your first language and some words being not that clear to what it means. lol Thank you for always come with a clear explanation on these topics, makes it really easy to follw and understand. Have a nice day...
Good video of commonly used names for various levels in a building. One level that was left out is an interstitial space. Common in hospitals and jails. This level is very similar to a mezzanine, in that it is an intermediate level in tall stories. But where a mezzanine is occupied or used for storage. An interstitial space is used exclusively for HVAC equipment or other building systems. Access is by maintenance type persons.
It would seem that load bearing should also b considered. That weight on top of that first space is suspended whether 2 ft or 9 feet. Isn’t that the original intent of what a story is?
Pretty soon a story will be defined as “any structure that identifies as a story” this is a material example of why we need cohesive, consistent, legally-binding definitions to have an organized society…
Basically, if I'd had unfortunately purchased one of those death traps, I'd have described the building as 12 stories on one side and 12 stories with an extra story for the penthouse on the other side.. Partial 13 story building.
This is interesting. I have friends that own a house. That back part of the house has a living area with a cathedral ceiling. The front part of the house has a "second story" with an open area, a shared bathroom and 2 bedrooms. But this video sounds like it meets the definition of a mezzanine so it is a 1 story house.
Back in the 1990s, while working with Cave Research Foundation, we discovered a place inside a cave in Arkansas where there was an intermediate area, higher than the bigger room to which it was an extension, but lower than the "upper level" passages that fed into it. I scoured through dictionaries and thesauruses and probably some architecture books to find out what this "intermediate elevated" spot would be called in a building and discovered the term Mezzanine! Had not heard that word for decades!
lol This video caused some great debate around my house! I showed the shot of the blueprint (without the answer) to 2 of my sons then I posed the question to my wife (who has been a school board member during 2 building expansion projects). She's the only one (including me) who got it right - "Well, OF COURSE, that bottom area isn't a story!..."
I moved a company from 12 to 13 in Houston. It was a 13 story building. Had the button in the elevator and everything. I was surprised to say the least
The story should be simple. Get in the buildings elevator and start counting from the basement and stop counting when you reach the lasts stop. Including if it stops at the mezzanine and if the elevator takes you to the roof count that also
NYC has a local law #11 governing facade repair that applies to buildings taller than 6 stories. NYC has a local law #97 governing energy usage and efficiency that applies to buildings larger than 25 square feet. NYC has a site safety regulation that applies to buildings 15 stories and taller. All of these laws are very expensive to comply with and make repair and construction work much more expensive.
In the engineering sense, adding a floor is NOT like adding another coin on top of a stack. It is much more like lifting the entire building to place another floor underneath.
Yeah but how far across the plan view of a building does the mezzanine need to stretch before it becomes sufficient to turn the single storey into two storeys?(according to the regulations)... Seems rather arbitrary, and I'd rather that storey was defined by mass of building materials between two floors
I live in a house with an ‘atrium’ as the dining room, where the chandelier hangs from the roof. (Don’t get any ideas, the house is not fancy.) All the bedrooms are on the 2nd story. No reasonable person would call it a one-story building.
A different take on stories... In days of old when knights were bold and buildings were just invented, the ground floor was just that, the ground floor. Then they built up, and just to be decorative they painted 'stories' that is to say individual stories as from a child's story book. So the first 'story' was in fact the second floor as we would call it in this country. Which is why to this day that Europeian builldings are so strange
This was really interesting since I currently live in a building that has a similar design as your example building. We have the split level part in the lowest part though. I think it's a little more clear-cut in our case because the part that is a little bit higher only has a crawl space below it. I can see why it is and ought to be considered a two story building. As a former firefighter, I don't want to arrive on scene at a building collapse and have people tell me the number of stories based on how many stairs there were. At the point of split levels and lofts, it is more useful for people to tell me how many main stories there were. Of course, in the case of our local areas, it was part of our training to know what they were like under normal conditions but, in the case where we are called out to other areas, it's better to keep it simple. I don't know what our codes for actually building are here, but I do know that we had to build a damn 6 foot block wall up to a code that was supposed to withstand a 9.0 earthquake and 90 mph winds simultaneously (neither of which have ever occurred here to our best knowledge) so I'm sure the actually buildings are pretty damn good around here.
I'm not a professionally trained blueprint reader, but it looks like the house in your example has a symbol indicating "orient your self from here" and it says "ELEV + 13'. 0" TOP OF FIN FLR". Now I take that to translate to "from this point, which is the top of the finished floor, the elevation is 13 feet and 0 inches". This makes sense to do if the blueprint maker doesn't want to show 13' of stilts to scale, but at the same time, it would be bold of you to intentionally say 3' for the stilt size when the actual size is 13' because it would actually change the correct answer to the question. The house has 3 stories. But as I said, I'm not trained to read blueprints and I've probably gotten my self just close enough to right to be completely wrong.
3 stories. EDIT: it's interesting how the ground floor distance can easily make the difference between 2 or 3 in your example. As usual, you did an amazing job with this explanation.
My guess, without knowing anything about a grade and not switching back to re read the mezzanine definition more closely, I bet this counts as 2 stories.
My argument with CTS might go like this. The building has 14 levels above ground (12 stories plus two part stories), the top two being a machine room and lift motor room. Therefore any other rooms (habitable penthouse) will not exceed that height. Perhaps the code needs to change to a vertical height above finished ground level, regardless of what is inside the walls.
As a layperson I have no problem calling this a two story building. Knowing that when I was contracting, my insurance limited me to three stories on residential buildings and five stories on commercial buildings I would have taken the most conservative definition possible. Any walkout basement and mezzanine would be considered a full story
Not using any of your definitions in the ordinances, in my mind the building of your client would be a 2 story building. The "loft" and the second story share the same ceiling and thus would be one story. The "loft" area is just a raised area of the second story. That's how I see it.
Yes. I rented a one room apartment in NYC. I went to the lumber year, bought some 4x4s, some 2x4s, and two sheets of plywood. There I had my loft and spread out a mattress on it. Gave me much more space in my apartment. Had this bee a sprinklered building I might have been in violation. where I live now, an alteration, including a 6' high bed, would require a change in the sprinkler system to accommodate the new configuration. Air conditiong equipment will also live in this house.
Zoning and Planning boards are not made up of engineers, they are citizens of the city that have been appointed by the mayor and confirmed by the council. There may be engineers and architects as members on the board, but the city engineer or a consulting firm for the board is their engineering expertise. They are there to determine if it meets code and zoning requirement and make recommendations to the city counsel. The city council may grant and expectations as it wishes and they make the ultimate decisions.
There’s a ~20 floor apartment building in New Brunswick NJ that has a HUGE 3-story building just sitting in the middle of the roof… I’ve always wondered what could be in there. Elevator machinery, sure, but it’s huge. No balconies are visible even though the other units have balconies, so I don’t think it’s a penthouse.
The water department also lives in there, tanks to provide water pressure to the apartments since there is no way that city water pressure could reach that high. Fire water is also up there. Even the best pumpers would have trouble getting water up that high. Water for fire sprinklers would also be up there. Yes, water pumps can and do fill these tanks, but not at the volume that a fire department would require. They just lazily pump up water through a 2" pipe almost al of the time.
Great video very interesting. One thing that I want to point out is that I’m a licensed insurance agent in Florida, and the statement you made about insurance companies having to cover any changes due to changes in the laws or ordinances is not 100% accurate. Although some insurance companies do include that coverage as a standard policy coverage, Not all companies do that. Some companies in order to have that coverage they asked the customer to purchase it at either 10%, 25%, or 50% of the dwelling value. It’s up to the customer to ensure that their policy has that coverage included if they want the insurance company to pay for any extra costs due to changes in laws. Nonetheless great video. Really interesting
not sure why i just thought of this but technically in my first two apartments i was on the 13th floor dispite being on 14 and 17 and there not being such a thing as a 13th floor here apartment one ground was floor 1 apartment 2 the two levels of parking garages were floors 1 and 2 ground level was level 3 and again no 13th makes being 13 floors up on the 17th floor
In my area (not anyplace near the ocean) an apartment building roof collapsed (causing major structural damage) with too much roofing material on the top of it. Can't help but think that the penthouse along with the roofing material with water was a major factor.
A well-insulated roof with accumulated snow can also result in collapse. I remember my dad scraping and shoveling it off our roof a few very snowy winters.
NOTHING you put out is boring! That is why we follow you for greater understanding that we are riveted to learning. (laypersons) Thank you sooo very much for all that you do to use this to educate folks who then may champion in their districts and communities. What a service you have done, thank you so much for CONTINUING and not giving up on educating through us lay folks to an end which may affect others.
Thanks, this means a lot. This channel is a lot of work and I appreciate this type of encouragement.
Nothing is boring? I dare you to watch the long video about Florida's new building codes after watching the shorter one. But that's the only example I can think of. 😀
They say of some actors that you could watch them read out a phone book. But I'd much rather see Josh read out building codes and explain why things are as they are, and what is important and what not. It broadens the mind to get a glimpse of how a professional like him views things, especially when it's communicated in such a masterful way.
He is doing the US a national service by making these videos. 🎖 🥂
I was just thinking the same thing, absolutely nothing is boring he says he makes it so interesting! I wish he would of been one of my teachers I would of learned so much!!
@@BuildingIntegrity I'm not even in the trade and I've watched all your Surfside collapse videos. Very very well done, informative, definitely not boring!! Thanks for the videos; we know it's a lot of work...
Another fascinating video, this is the sort of involved detail that the average layperson would probably never even stop to think about when looking at a building. I've honestly learned so much since I started watching this channel.
Most of us found you and your channel because of your explanation of the Champlain Towers collapse, but it's become so much more than that now. You're a great resource for helping people understand how buildings are built and maintained. The way you explain blueprints makes it easy to comprehend. You've also taught us about the "politics" of a project. I enjoy knowing that you and your channel are making me smarter every time I watch a new video. Josh, thanks.
Excellent video! You should do an analysis on the old Glass Bank building that used to stand in Cocoa Beach. That building was an engineering marvel at the time it was built in the 1960s during the space race, but turned out to be ripe with engineering failures, a co-owner who added two windowless stories to the roof some 15-20 years after it was built (lots of corruption and scandal), and who lived in that penthouse almost a decade after the rest of the building below was effectively condemned from hurricane damage and the need and expense that the other co-owner didn’t want to spend to bring back up to modern fire code in order to make functional and habitable again. I’ve always been interested in the structure and history of this building. Thanks again Josh!
I will look into that. Thanks!
I'd watch that.
Always cheaper to demo and rebuild than renpvate
@@BuildingIntegrity Both Bright Sun Films and the Proper People did excellent videos about and inside the Glass Bank. You might find either or both interesting if you were to discuss the build.
A hole story... In our building we have four floors: B, 1, 2, 3. But do we? Below the basement level is the dungeon: [and this being a monastery you can imagine what medieval appliances might be in there] It is a set of tunnels for water and steam return pipes to live in.
Off of this there are some chambers that once upon a time gave access to pipe chases leading to other buildings. Here there be sump pumps.
This dungeon level then turns left, that is to say west and continues for another 50 feet or so, but the floor rises up so much that only a cat could pass through it. And the last time I checked the cats are not licensed plumbers, welders or electricians. But the utilities are in there none the less.
At the distal end of this tunnel there is a right hand turn and it opens up into a basement level tunnel. A brick lined tunnel that goes under the parking lot to the power house building. Off of this tunnel there are chambers that housed condensate return equipment (now disused--but with an access to the sidewalk above), and another tunnel with a sandy floor that takes pipes to yet another building. But to continue with our first (or was it the second tunnel?) we enter the basement of the power house where it circles around the platform that supports our boilers.
I have gone through these tunnels to install CAT-5 cables for our computer system. Perhaps I should have had the spiders to the work, there sure were enough of them. And so once I got to the power house I found a conduit through which I could introduce my cable, and there install a network switch, for I still had to go back down into the tunnel to bring the cable to the next building in our complex.
But wait, this is not all! For above the third floor there is the attic, and this too had to be fitted with fire sprinklers, but this had to be a dry-pipe system, since here in North Dakota we would not want pipes the the attic, or even on the un-heated floors to freeze. Then above the attic is the roof. The south and east wings are peaked, but while the north wing pretends to be peaked it really has a flat roof, and has ventilation machinery located there on.
Dungeon, Basement, First, Second, Third, Attic, and Roof, that is a lot of building any way you count it.
But now, I am 74 years old, and so someone else will have to maintain this stuff.
Wow, sounds like a really interesting old building!
This may sound naive, but shouldn’t commercial buildings or multi-family buildings always be held to the higher standard because of the potential for harm to a large number of people?
There is international code they must follow but often design plans change over time after initial ok and concrete rebar ir brick mortar can fail over time or graft where suitcases of money are exchanged allegedly or contractor tries to save money by cutting corners hoping no one notices.
@@WindTurbineSyndrome Sadly true.
In engineering we make decisions based less on things that do not have firm definitions ("If this fails will it substantially injure three or more people?" which is another way of asking "How can we know how many unlucky people there will be?") than on things that do ("If this fails is there statistically significant-5 sigma or better-chance that such a failure will not cause another failure or the death of any occupant of the structure?"). This is why some things that seem like they should hinge on the intended use of a structure are not decided that way.
Buildings just need to be build to accommodate their use. That is what the code is for.
They should, but they don't. Developers just want the biggest return for their investment, even if they're selling garbage.
I could listen to you for hours, makes me wonder if I missed my calling in life. Love to hear you break down the new laws and if they help more than hurt. Thanks Josh.
I used to work for the John D and Catherine T MacArthur foundation and back in the day John MacArthur wanted to put a 13th story on the building. But as he had the tallest building at the time the town had set the height limit to be that particular building’s 12th floor ceiling. As MacArther was a rich stingy lawyer, he lifted the 12th floor and inserted an 11 B underneath.
OK I get your example.
I worked for 34 years in a hospital which was on a hilltop site. On one face the grade level entrance was at the Basement level. On an adjacent face was a grade level entrance on the Ground floor (one level above the Basement), and on an opposite face there was a grade level entrance on the First floor, (two levels above the Basement.) There were the following occupied levels: B, G, 1 thru 9, plus a 10th floor restricted access mechanical floor, and a restricted 11th floor elevator machinery level. So it can get pretty technical on how many stories a building has.
In Surfside a story is whatever your lawyers say apparently.
I think it would have been good to go at least a little bit into what Section 505 says about mezzanine floors in the video - at least mention the fact that if the floor area is too large relative to the floor underneath, you can't call it a mezzanine any more and have to call it a separate story (with an atrium connecting the two stories).
True, it didn't matter for my particular case study so I didn't mention it. There are also other items to consider and controlling factors for determining "stories" but I couldn't get into all of them in this video. The goal was to just show that the issue isn't as straight-forward as we might initially think.
@@BuildingIntegrity Definitely good to keep it simple for sure - there's a lot of complexity that you could get into that is better off avoided in this sort of video - I just feel like it's worth emphasizing that you could call the loft area a mezzanine because it meets all the requirements of being a mezzanine, it's not an arbitrary decision.
Just saying it can be a mezzanine and not a story because it's between two stories, without mentioning the other requirements, feels a bit like circular reasoning.
@@JaborWithaY Thanks for clarifying that. So 505 does give size requirements for a mezzanine which answers my question.
@@BuildingIntegrity I'm curious too about the definition of a mezzanine. For example, how many stories is the Luxor in Las Vegas? Is it 30 story building, or is it a ~4 story building with 26 mezzanines in the 300 foot tall first floor?
I was wondering the same. Otherwise I could simply have a small hole in the floor, then call the upper floor a mezzanine instead of a story and would be able to circumvent any restrictions that apply once I reach a certain number of stories.
I would be curious if the engineer didn't have to change anything in Surfside because the penthouse was ALWAYS there in the design but the Arch/Owner knew they had to play games with the drawings and submissions to get it "legally" built?
this was covered in past videos. the penthouse was not detailed in any of the structural plans submitted to and signed off on by the city. Neither were most of the balconies.
@@fishonkayakadventure I understand that but it doesnt mean it was not taken into consideration during the design.
I have personally worked on projects where things have been taken out to get them under budget, through permit or approval or whatever but the structure itself was still designed for them hoping that money will be found during construction or soon after and it would not require major revisions.
After watching your videos I always feel like I learned more than in most of my college classes.
This was a very interesting lesson about differences and definitions of building codes etc. I was immediately reminded of a Coen Brothers film from the early 90's called the Hudsucker Proxy. The movie started out with the sole proprietor of the company jumping out the 44th floor of the Hudsucker Building, to his demise. As the board of directors convened afterwards, the company president, played by Paul Newman, speculated as to why the man jumped 44 floors to his death but one of the directors interjected that there was also a mezzanine at the ground floor. That caught my attention and for the past 30 years or so, I thought the character may have fallen 45 stories, "including the mezzanine," and not 44.
Now I know correctly it was 44 stories.
One tiny fact would have made this a lot clearer. Mezzanines can only be so large as compared to the story they are on before they are no longer a mezzanine. I was confused until I read the comments. Otherwise, quite a good video. I now know a little bit more of how much I don't know.
As a Florida resident, I believe that zoning restrictions mean nothing. It only takes minimal political influence to obtain a waiver.
Additionally, the building inspectors do nothing regarding flagrant longterm violation of zoning restrictions.
Pitiful.
Money talks and people die.
@@aday1637 What astounds me is how little cash it takes for a zoning variance.
In Florida, zoning and inspections are little more than a tax collection system
Zoning is not for safety
When I was a county inspector I faced this problem. A new high rise jail needed a rooftop equipment room larger than code allowed without calling it a story. The need was driven by redundant equipment to keep the jail operating during equipment outages. We ultimately went to the state board and we’re granted a variance. Thank you for the video.
You learn something new every day... I had no clue the American spelling of "storey" is without the "e". ( not being sarcastic) . Great video as always!! I've been watching all your Surfside collapse videos. Extremely informative!!
OMG!!!!!!! I have just heard after listening to you since Surfside something that affects me personally in another state. You stated that insurance has to cover new laws and ordinances on top of their coverage. Just happening RIGHT NOW to me with a new roof as the codes have changed, and they now must do by codes a freeze thingy (lol whatever is called) and they MUST do a metal thingy from the boards of the roof to the front of the such/behind the gutter. Wow! The thing that the insurance company said is the roofer must prove! Wow! Thanks and I couldn't figure out what they were talking about as to such until your video!
You are so right -every word in the law is important. I almost missed my dream because I took the common meaning of the law to mean all of a class, when it did have an exception. That one word made all the difference.
This entire issue, grade level, story count on stump(stilt) construction etc has plagued the local city council here in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, to the point where the council recently just gave up trying to enforce code, just allowing owners to modify to whatever standard.
Brisbane is a hilly River city, and until the 1970s, most residential buildings were entirely timber construction, mounted on stumps…stilts..to deal with whatever undulating contour issues the plot had. Constantly flooding areas were originally allowed to raise underfloor ‘head heights’ to exactly nine foot, however, in many areas this provision failed to protect the dwelling from flood. Legal process from litigation, insurance, stubborn owners etc. continued to create such a Grey zone of non compliance where the Council simply decided to allow a free for all. This provision only applies to existing buildings, the locally known as “Queenslander “ houses, timber buildings surrounded by a wide veranda, rooms within having french doors access to the veranda to allow cooling breeze in Humid Summers. This type of building are impossible to complete to modern code standards, so are no longer built here. Most carry a heritage listing, further complicating any modification work.
I expect Global Weirding to create more issues like you mention as more people seek to move their houses up onto stilts instead of vacating land they'll never be able to sell.
Fun fact: What you call the first floor here would be called Erdgeschoss (ground story) in Germany. And the second story would be called the first story.
You are SO good at explaining all the technical details so laymen can completely understand. Thank you! ❤
Shady as it might have been, I dont believe it was a major factor in the collapse. I think the main issue was the water intrusion on the pool deck weakening the steel reinforced concrete of the parking garage for decades. Other than targeted draining and proper waterproofing, I think maybe engineering steps to avoid domino effects as much as possible should be emphasized on.
I think the spalling was from the water and not from being overloaded? If the penthouse would cause an overload I think the damages would have looked diferent? Would be interesting to see typical overload characteristic damages as an example in a video, I think it could help HOA's be more aware of upcoming problems.
I think the issue with the penthouse is it's just a lot of additional dead and live load on a structure not designed to have 12 stories. It's an additional floor system (did they pour a roof, then add additional flooring weight or did they poor the original roof to be a floor?) and an additional roof system, plus a condo's worth of fittings and furniture for the existing column system to hold up. The Sampoong, Versailles, and Dhaka collapses were heavily attributed to the addition of additional stories/floors w/o proper redesign. There's rarely one sole contributing cause.
Very good presentation of a moderately complex topic to those of us with little understanding of engineering. Thanks!
Thank you and thanks for watching!
@@BuildingIntegrity This vid is about the code, not about engineering, and the code is to the engineering loosely as the law is to morality. Personally, I wish we could get off of the international code, after the corruption of recent years in international bodies like the WHO in their covid policy and the ISO pushing ESG agenda. Centralized power corrupts, and internationally-centralized power corrupts absolutely.
It would be nice to see a video explaining how the International Building Code defines a penthouse as a storey. Canadian building codes clearly define a penthouse as a roof top space used only for service equipment.
Flat top buildings often have mechanical and elevator "penthouses" so not considered a "story".
Canada is less corrupt than the USA... or used to be.
Your videos are quality for both professional engineers and average citizens to learn from
Surely the spelling for this should be "storey" though?
Remember in the 70’s when split level homes were all the rage? Lol
Another great video, Josh! You chose a really good example to illustrate things. Thank you!!
Love your videos Josh. You always enlighten us on the building codes that we would other wise be clue less about. Thank you...!!!!
Props to your client for even caring
As a Realtor, I would list it as a 2 story with a loft.... but really it's a 3 story
Fun fact: In Denmark & Sweden the 2nd story is called the 1st floor.
Yes, many places in Europe and Asia have a ground floor with the first floor on top of it, what we in the States would call 1st and 2nd floor.
Hi Josh, I am not sure if you can access it form the US, but the BBC has released a 1hr documentary on the collapse - Why Buildings Collapse. Some interesting survivor interviews and additional footage. Thank you for the fascinating content, I have learnt a huge amount from watching your videos.
Hi Josh, thanks for sharing. I leave comments to those that have already given great insight's to this subject. Personally after watching this video, your clients building is a 2 (two) story building. I go through them and click on the thumb's-up.
Appreciate all your efforts with these breakdowns and that's all the way down here in New Zealand.
@Josh: Could a builder/architect game the 'mezzanine' rule by simply having an atrium with a curtain wall going straight up to the ceiling while having multiple mezzanines, or even having an open space through the middle of multiple floors as we see in many open office buildings? Some examples would be the Luxor Hotel Las Vegas and the NY Marriott Marquis
I had the SAME QUESTION in my head! Didn't even consider the Luxor Hotel (which I stayed at once) BUT IT'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE!!!!
The video didn't cover it but the building code also contains specific definitions for what can be a mezzanine and when it needs to be called another story.
Is the Luxor a single story building? Hmmm...I think it may not apply, because there is a full wall from floor to ceiling. In this video, the mezzanine did not have a full wall separating it from the 2nd story. But I'm no expert. Great question!
According to International Building Code section 505.2.1 Area Limitations (of mezzanines) “The aggregate area of a mezzanine or mezzanines within a room shall be not greater than one-third of the floor area of that room or space in which they are located. The enclosed portion of a room shall not be included in a determination of the floor area of the room in which the mezzanine is located. In determining the allowable mezzanine area, the area of the mezzanine shall not be included in the floor area of the room.”
There are additional restrictions, including that the mezzanine shall be open to the room in which it is located (except for bathrooms or closets) which would rule out the individual hotel rooms of the Luxor as being mezzanines, because they are enclosed rooms, and also have, in total, *more* square footage than the floor of which they would be mezzanines.
@@jpe1 Thank you for this information. I suppose I should have thought to do a thorough search. Thanks again.
Thank you Josh, this is actually a question I had from the start. It struck me at the start when I counted the floors but there was never mention of a 13th story after the collapse. That led me to the council, the money, why was it considered 12 stories etc. 🤷🏻♀️
What a lovely story on a Saturday morning!
Wow, so much of this seems so nit-picky, but, of course, that is what supports the whole legal (lawyers)profession! Thank you for all your effort and research to explain the minutia of building code definitions, and where problems in definition of spaces could arise. Gives me a headache just thinking about it!
I actually think this stems from builders trying to build as much as possible with as little code as possible. Profits > Safety!
It's not just about the legal profession (which involves a lot of game-playing and "spinning" the truth), but about the structure that supports buildings and thus people's lives.
As a Florida transplant for almost 30 years, information you put out is very interesting.
I have met a lot of people that worked in construction all over Florida in the 1970's-1980's .
The stories they told, Florida is lucky more buildings have not collapsed, yet.
Put up your interviews..you can blur their faces if needed.
Incidentally, I recently worked on a mass transit system. In the case of a metro station, the mezzanine level is a floor located between the platform level and the ground level that allows you to go from one platform to the other (in the case where there are two platforms, one on either side of the track) and to the stairs or elevators that lead to the ground level. It's essentially the level that connects the various parts of the metro station. When you have a cavernous station, it often takes the form of a bridge crossing over the tracks. If you have elevated tracks in the middle of a boulevard and the access to the station is a building on the side of the boulevard, then the mezzanine will appear to be a pedestrian crossing over the traffic lanes of the boulevard, between the aerial part and the ground level part of the station.
I find this really odd as a conclusion. Does this mean that I could have a skyscraper count as a single story building if I don’t have complete floors inside, but just a lot of mezzanines? When does a mezzanine become a floor? Is it good enough if I have an attium where I can see the ceiling 500m above me?
If a hypothetical mezzanine stops 1 foot before the end of the far left hand wall does that mean you can install an unlimited number of hypothetical mezzanines and call a property a one-story building?
"505.2.1 Area Limitation
The aggregate area of a mezzanine or mezzanines within a room shall be not greater than one-third of the floor area of that room or space in which they are located. The enclosed portion of a room shall not be included in a determination of the floor area of the room in which the mezzanine is located. In determining the allowable mezzanine area, the area of the mezzanine shall not be included in the floor area of the room."
So from what I'm understanding they can only add up to 1/3rd the floor area of the room it's "in", so if you have, say, a 6000 square foot room you can only have 2000 square feet of mezzanines combined. That's 2000 1 square foot mezzanines.
Oh, and they have to have minimum 7 feet above and below them
There probably will be buildings with 2 double height stories that each have a mezzanine level covering 33% of the floor area which is the maximum allowed. This will give the most height and square footage without triggering compliance with the costly law.
@@Helladamnleet yes that correct. also there is an occupant load cap of 10 and has to communicate and be open to the main floor. there are some exceptions but these are the general rules
@@da4441 That would be a code violation. The total of the mezzanine(s) cannot exceed 1/3
Great video, as always! I've learned more about reinforced concrete buildings in the last year just watching your videos than I have during 5 years in university. Which isn't that surprising given what my chosen specialty was...
Oh, in that case, Josh, it’s got an e in it - storey. 😍 Not entirely your fault when everything else you showed us also has “story”. Plural: storeys.
I live in Denver and managed properties. You just answered so many questions about while so many 5 story building have a penthouses added. These penthouses go above the elevator. In some cases the penthouse is a non necessary patch on top of the building. These penthouses really have no reason to be a part of the building. This makes me a little sick inside.
The story, but not the whole story.
IMO any space that is livable and/or more than 12'x12'x7' with the intent of occupancy should be considered a story/floor, all in all, the only reason we worry about a story is weight... so if the square footage comes over to enough to equal more than a certain percentage of the roof it should be determined to be a story, if an area built into a larger area where the floor does not add support to the area above then it might get a pass as a story...
Like an Elevator structure on the top of a building that protrudes should not qualify, but say an area that you use for pumps and other machinery could…
Count on a disbarred lawyer / developer to finesse the plain meanings of words to suit his desire.
"Falls in this gray area". Very true, it fell into a big gray pile, last summer.
At what point is a mezzanine considered a story? If you completely enclose it from the rest of the structure? For example, in what you see in commercial "Office in front, warehouse in back" type buildings where they make two "floors" out of that front office area, complete with elevator, and completely enclose it from the back warehouse section. Sounds like a loophole of some sort when architects and building managers insist on calling this layout a "Single-story warehouse space with front mezzanine".
Your video refreshes the thoughts of some of us even because we may build a home that is three story and includes two mezzanines. To top that off there is also a dome. Issues came up early, in the design process, most particularly in how high the county would allow the dome to rise. That latter point can guide where you build in Florida.
Without the benefit of the cross-section, if I were simply driving by that house, it would appear to me as a 2 story with possibly a cathedral ceiling upstairs. and so this is why the technicality is so important. very good. I wonder if they could have fooled an inspector driving by.
I eagerly look for new videos when you post them. While I first found your videos of CTS, everything I have watched is just top notch. We’re I in need of structural engineering services, I would look no further than your firm. Just excellent content!
Josh, you are very good at what you do!!
I have paused the video as Josh suggested to offer my answer to the question, "How many stories is this building?" My immediate answer is it is a four story building.
However, nuances suggest it will be judged a two story structure as the parking/stilts/storage/basement will be judged to be below grade, and thus not counted. Likely the loft/mezzanine will also be exempted out as the measure to rafter from main floor will be the critical judgement.
If I am correct in my hypothesis, and the rules are so full of holes a four story structure is magically counted as a two story structure, it would seem the Florida legislature must amend the code to require all structural floors to be counted.
I will also note at this point we do not know if this is a single home structure. If the structure continues in a townhouse like configuration, with units sharing walls, it may trigger the condo rules. This may or may not offer clarity. It may simply make the judgments more confusing.
Let's return to the video now and see what happens!
As a humble home owner, I learned something today. Thank you.
Just what i expected! This is indeed tricky to determine. More so when English is not your first language and some words being not that clear to what it means. lol
Thank you for always come with a clear explanation on these topics, makes it really easy to follw and understand. Have a nice day...
I work for an insurance company. Since square footage is one of the many criteria we look at, we would calculate this as a two-and-a-half storey home.
Good video of commonly used names for various levels in a building. One level that was left out is an interstitial space. Common in hospitals and jails. This level is very similar to a mezzanine, in that it is an intermediate level in tall stories. But where a mezzanine is occupied or used for storage. An interstitial space is used exclusively for HVAC equipment or other building systems. Access is by maintenance type persons.
It would seem that load bearing should also b considered. That weight on top of that first space is suspended whether 2 ft or 9 feet. Isn’t that the original intent of what a story is?
I watch everything you create! Keep it up!
Very interesting and well explained, as always Josh. Thank you! (I incorrectly guessed three stories, now I know!)
If it were a story it would be called the 13th floor. It's called a Penthouse, save yourself the 20 minutes of watching this.
Pretty soon a story will be defined as “any structure that identifies as a story” this is a material example of why we need cohesive, consistent, legally-binding definitions to have an organized society…
Basically, if I'd had unfortunately purchased one of those death traps, I'd have described the building as 12 stories on one side and 12 stories with an extra story for the penthouse on the other side.. Partial 13 story building.
Ah, the ins and outs of the building industry. Most interesting. Thanks for the upload.
This is interesting. I have friends that own a house. That back part of the house has a living area with a cathedral ceiling. The front part of the house has a "second story" with an open area, a shared bathroom and 2 bedrooms. But this video sounds like it meets the definition of a mezzanine so it is a 1 story house.
Back in the 1990s, while working with Cave Research Foundation, we discovered a place inside a cave in Arkansas where there was an intermediate area, higher than the bigger room to which it was an extension, but lower than the "upper level" passages that fed into it. I scoured through dictionaries and thesauruses and probably some architecture books to find out what this "intermediate elevated" spot would be called in a building and discovered the term Mezzanine! Had not heard that word for decades!
lol This video caused some great debate around my house! I showed the shot of the blueprint (without the answer) to 2 of my sons then I posed the question to my wife (who has been a school board member during 2 building expansion projects). She's the only one (including me) who got it right - "Well, OF COURSE, that bottom area isn't a story!..."
14th floor, no one names it 13th or it will have bad luck...
I moved a company from 12 to 13 in Houston. It was a 13 story building. Had the button in the elevator and everything. I was surprised to say the least
The story should be simple.
Get in the buildings elevator and start counting from the basement and stop counting when you reach the lasts stop.
Including if it stops at the mezzanine and if the elevator takes you to the roof count that also
Great job with your video and the explanation!
NYC has a local law #11 governing facade repair that applies to buildings taller than 6 stories. NYC has a local law #97 governing energy usage and efficiency that applies to buildings larger than 25 square feet. NYC has a site safety regulation that applies to buildings 15 stories and taller. All of these laws are very expensive to comply with and make repair and construction work much more expensive.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience
In the engineering sense, adding a floor is NOT like adding another coin on top of a stack. It is much more like lifting the entire building to place another floor underneath.
Yeah but how far across the plan view of a building does the mezzanine need to stretch before it becomes sufficient to turn the single storey into two storeys?(according to the regulations)... Seems rather arbitrary, and I'd rather that storey was defined by mass of building materials between two floors
I live in a house with an ‘atrium’ as the dining room, where the chandelier hangs from the roof. (Don’t get any ideas, the house is not fancy.) All the bedrooms are on the 2nd story. No reasonable person would call it a one-story building.
It is a ratio of the space it is within. 50% or less I think.
In the International Building code (2015): not greater than 1/3 the floor area of the room in which it is located
A different take on stories...
In days of old when knights were bold and buildings were just invented, the ground floor was just that, the ground floor. Then they built up, and just to be decorative they painted 'stories' that is to say individual stories as from a child's story book. So the first 'story' was in fact the second floor as we would call it in this country. Which is why to this day that Europeian builldings are so strange
This was really interesting since I currently live in a building that has a similar design as your example building. We have the split level part in the lowest part though. I think it's a little more clear-cut in our case because the part that is a little bit higher only has a crawl space below it. I can see why it is and ought to be considered a two story building. As a former firefighter, I don't want to arrive on scene at a building collapse and have people tell me the number of stories based on how many stairs there were. At the point of split levels and lofts, it is more useful for people to tell me how many main stories there were. Of course, in the case of our local areas, it was part of our training to know what they were like under normal conditions but, in the case where we are called out to other areas, it's better to keep it simple. I don't know what our codes for actually building are here, but I do know that we had to build a damn 6 foot block wall up to a code that was supposed to withstand a 9.0 earthquake and 90 mph winds simultaneously (neither of which have ever occurred here to our best knowledge) so I'm sure the actually buildings are pretty damn good around here.
Very interesting, but I think you missed an opportunity to discuss a sloping grade and this application 👍👍
I'm not a professionally trained blueprint reader, but it looks like the house in your example has a symbol indicating "orient your self from here" and it says "ELEV + 13'. 0" TOP OF FIN FLR". Now I take that to translate to "from this point, which is the top of the finished floor, the elevation is 13 feet and 0 inches". This makes sense to do if the blueprint maker doesn't want to show 13' of stilts to scale, but at the same time, it would be bold of you to intentionally say 3' for the stilt size when the actual size is 13' because it would actually change the correct answer to the question. The house has 3 stories. But as I said, I'm not trained to read blueprints and I've probably gotten my self just close enough to right to be completely wrong.
So sad I spoke to a concrete specialist that worked on this building and said the concrete was the wrong strength
Thank you! I have wondered about that since it was disclosed early after the fail.
3 stories.
EDIT: it's interesting how the ground floor distance can easily make the difference between 2 or 3 in your example. As usual, you did an amazing job with this explanation.
*storeys
@@MostlyLoveOfMusic Only if you're a Brit.
@@MostlyLoveOfMusic Stories in the US.
My guess, without knowing anything about a grade and not switching back to re read the mezzanine definition more closely, I bet this counts as 2 stories.
Josh,
Great video! Thank you for explaining these complex issues.
Paul (in MA)
My argument with CTS might go like this.
The building has 14 levels above ground (12 stories plus two part stories), the top two being a machine room and lift motor room. Therefore any other rooms (habitable penthouse) will not exceed that height.
Perhaps the code needs to change to a vertical height above finished ground level, regardless of what is inside the walls.
This is what my city does. Average roof height must not exceed X feet above finished grade.
Great Video Josh!
As a layperson I have no problem calling this a two story building. Knowing that when I was contracting, my insurance limited me to three stories on residential buildings and five stories on commercial buildings I would have taken the most conservative definition possible. Any walkout basement and mezzanine would be considered a full story
It sound like making the top story twice as tall and installing the penthouse as a mezzanine would have made the tower a legitimate 12 stories.
4 stories. Love your videos!
Not using any of your definitions in the ordinances, in my mind the building of your client would be a 2 story building. The "loft" and the second story share the same ceiling and thus would be one story. The "loft" area is just a raised area of the second story. That's how I see it.
Yes. I rented a one room apartment in NYC. I went to the lumber year, bought some 4x4s, some 2x4s, and two sheets of plywood. There I had my loft and spread out a mattress on it. Gave me much more space in my apartment. Had this bee a sprinklered building I might have been in violation. where I live now, an alteration, including a 6' high bed, would require a change in the sprinkler system to accommodate the new configuration. Air conditiong equipment will also live in this house.
Excellent analysis.
Zoning and Planning boards are not made up of engineers, they are citizens of the city that have been appointed by the mayor and confirmed by the council. There may be engineers and architects as members on the board, but the city engineer or a consulting firm for the board is their engineering expertise. They are there to determine if it meets code and zoning requirement and make recommendations to the city counsel. The city council may grant and expectations as it wishes and they make the ultimate decisions.
There’s a ~20 floor apartment building in New Brunswick NJ that has a HUGE 3-story building just sitting in the middle of the roof… I’ve always wondered what could be in there. Elevator machinery, sure, but it’s huge.
No balconies are visible even though the other units have balconies, so I don’t think it’s a penthouse.
The water department also lives in there, tanks to provide water pressure to the apartments since there is no way that city water pressure could reach that high. Fire water is also up there. Even the best pumpers would have trouble getting water up that high. Water for fire sprinklers would also be up there. Yes, water pumps can and do fill these tanks, but not at the volume that a fire department would require. They just lazily pump up water through a 2" pipe almost al of the time.
Great video very interesting. One thing that I want to point out is that I’m a licensed insurance agent in Florida, and the statement you made about insurance companies having to cover any changes due to changes in the laws or ordinances is not 100% accurate.
Although some insurance companies do include that coverage as a standard policy coverage, Not all companies do that. Some companies in order to have that coverage they asked the customer to purchase it at either 10%, 25%, or 50% of the dwelling value. It’s up to the customer to ensure that their policy has that coverage included if they want the insurance company to pay for any extra costs due to changes in laws.
Nonetheless great video. Really interesting
Thanks Josh! Love your stuff, keep it up! How's Millennium Tower looking these days?
not sure why i just thought of this but technically in my first two apartments i was on the 13th floor dispite being on 14 and 17 and there not being such a thing as a 13th floor here apartment one ground was floor 1 apartment 2 the two levels of parking garages were floors 1 and 2 ground level was level 3 and again no 13th makes being 13 floors up on the 17th floor
In my area (not anyplace near the ocean) an apartment building roof collapsed (causing major structural damage) with too much roofing material on the top of it. Can't help but think that the penthouse along with the roofing material with water was a major factor.
A well-insulated roof with accumulated snow can also result in collapse. I remember my dad scraping and shoveling it off our roof a few very snowy winters.