750 watts peak demand? Regularly over 500 watts? This is truly an informative and eye opening video and Alan Shaw remains one of the most honest individuals in the world of high end audio. He's always willing to explore and learn all he can about loudspeaker reproduction and share it with us. Thank you Mr Shaw. Anyway 50 watts also sounds about right for the absolute minimum, depending upon the room, the volume, and of course the music. Lets not also forget that Harbeth loudspeakers are designed to present a fairly benign load for amplication. Other designs will need even more power! As we have just witnessed, Electronic music, with its huge bandwidth can be surprisingly demanding when it comes to amplifier power demands. Therefore a certain amount of occasional compression amd clipping is unfortunately unavoidable unless you are willing to put up with gigantic amplification and all of the associated issues that could bring with it.
I had the Harbeth P3ESR and my 50W amps had power meters. I never really went over a few Watts, and generally stated below 1 Watt in my small room whilst playing acoustic music. Interesting video!
Since you don’t disclose the volume in DB when pumping out 500 watts it’s a completely useless demo. The you actually starts playing dynamic music and claims that peak power is less ?! All digital recordings basically peaks at 0db so the volume has to do with how much you crank it up. Lets say you where playing at 112 db 2 m from the speakers. Reducing it to 102 db would get you peek 50 W. If you really want a dynamic electronic track , play set me free , Depeche Mode.
Did you notice that they are talking not far from the speakers while the music is still playing? SPL is probably not higher than 95dB, otherwise they would not hear each other.
ik zou wel eens dezelfde muziek en amp willen zien met efficientere weergevers. En dan nog eens kijken hoeveel Watts erin gaan. Blijkbaar is de Harbeth een heftig gedempte weergever. Oftewel, de titel van deze vid zou moeten zijn, hoeveel power heb je nodig voor Harbeth speaker, not generally speaking dus.
I listen mostly to electronic music so I'm getting myself a more powerfull amp. This is truelly eye opening. I get why they use 10kw amps in even small clubs.
In fact I have a shl5 anniversary and a p3esr. In my experience the p3esr is easier to drive, despite the low sensitivity. It works really well even with low power and high quality tube amps, provided you listen in low volumes. That’s why I think this video is a demarketing for Harbeth, because one could enjoy this speaker with low power. The SHL5 is another history and my experience is more inline with yours. It plays well with low watts, but will open up and shine with amps that can provide high current during the music transients and amps that have high slew rates.
Gotta say that room sounds pretty horrible, just by listening to their voices. Get some thick carpet down and some "stuff" in the room to soak up those long decays in the 200Hz region. Sounds like our store room at work😅
Harbeth speakers really do sound great. But when you hear the company owner's theory behind them or his approach towards amplifiers, you really have to wonder how that is possible...
It’s the same maths for all but the very highest efficiency‘speakers. Audiophiles fool themselves that a handful of Watts is sufficient - without ever using an oscilloscope to realise their beloved amplifier is clipping on peaks. That’s why so many love their tube (valve) amps - because the distortion is less noticeable.
This just means Harbeth speakers are very inefficient but also the majority of power is going into the bass. Direct radiator bass is quite inefficient.This is why bass horns exist.
Hi, I tried with Shazam, then Sound hound to find out what music it is. No success ! But, during the video, the guy shows his cell and I believe it's to tell us what band it is. Just pause the video and take a note.
The test that they have carried out is 100% floored. You need to take the reading from the speaker taps on the rear of the amplifiers. You need to be using the correct piece of equipment to take the reading. You need to prove to the viewer that the piece of equipment that is taking the reading is calibrated and working correctly. Once you have satisfied all of the above then take the readings and then you will see what is really happening and what power is going to the speakers. And that is the truth of the matter...⏏⏹⏺⏪▶⏩⏸
No, this video is misleading. CH precision VU-meters are misleading, They 1. Measure peak power, not RMS (that adds extremely roughly 2x more power) and more importantly 2. In mono mode, CH precision amplifier VU-meters double (2x) again. So in that video, divide what you see by four (4) very roughly and that would give what we more easily understand as power requirements. This video is not helpful at all.
I don't know about the VU meters doing what you're saying at is seems highly unlikely for them to do that. They know it's in mono mode and it's digitaly controled so why have the wrong number showing. Mostlikely they look at current draws and that doesn't really lie. I do know that your amp still has to be able to give you that peak power without hitting the rails. 700 watt peak is 500 watts rms. And 300 watts 2 channels that would give you about 1000 watts rms with a decent powersupply. So It does sound at least plausible what they are saying. Even if you are right you still need 175 watts of clean power to give that reading. And that is into an reactive 8 ohm load, they are more like a 8-14 ohm load down low looking at the impedance curve. Not a lot of "audiophile" amps can do that.
And your point is? 🤷♂️ Loudspeakers have sensitivities of about 85 to 95 dB for 1 W @ 1 metre - an efficiency of 0.5-4% So even the most efficient speakers waste 95% of the electrical power.
The point is simple, small speakers are compromised and when you have an efficient speaker you can get away with thermal compression. It sounds a lot better and more realistic than a small compromised box does. My speakers are close to the theoretical efficiency limit. Around 30% and a couple of watts is all that is needed.
I learned something new with this demonstration today. Well done ! My dream is to own a pair of Harbeth 40.2 (or whatever might follow that model). That means, I will also need a new amp. I currently have a small Simaudio Moon integrated amp (built in Montreal city, Canada). It's a 50w 8 ohms or 100w 4 ohms. If I remember well, Harbeth speakers are at around 6 ohms of impedance. Not enough... I also dream of a Naim amplifier. The top of their line. Naims are high currents amplifiers even though they seem to have an average power. Naim amps are really known for their power to reproduce peaks (large and micro). They are "fast" amps and very articulated amps. Well, I can dream a long time......
Try Leak 30 or Rogers amps with this speakers, apple 4s phone clean DAC, You will be very impressed, big difference, this lovely speakers need 15 w old amp, not powerful, new and complicated with expensive cables to them, that what people get. Harman Kardon, Marantz..... old receivers Wow!
I like to ask a question on this demo. If we belive speakers sensitivity has affected by its placement in the room.and that can affect the power demand of speakers. Can we say this test is enough to judge power requirement?
Amazing video. What volume were you playing at? I wish you could have tried some rock music like Dire Straits and Pink Floyd? And if you could have done 2 channel movie. Btw, I’ve always heard great things about your speakers.
@@gasolin75 it's not as linear a relationship, yes, you double for every 3db, but also consider that sensitivity is measured for volts, 2.83v. but that does not represent 1watt in 6ohms, it is probably 1.5watts,. If the realtionship were linear, then it would be 150watt for +20db, but as you saw if you play violins, you need 15watts, the moment you need to drive low bass, for the same volume they drew 600watts, and they said the violin track played louder, without considering peak draws of the bassy track. Also, we don't know how low the impedence is for the bass units of the speaker, but usually the bigger the driver and magnet, the lower it is, and the greater the power draw. Anyway, 103-5db is very loud , a lot louder than what you'd considered loud, and very impressive they can play at that volume with low distrortion. I think we over estimate power requirements for normal listening, and underestimate what it takes to sustain concert level volume.
I don´t agree with this. I had a pair of Cerwin Vega D-15EE speakers that were quite efficient. I think 94-96 db/W/m. I fed them with a QSC GX5 amp, which puts out 700W/ch continuous into 4 ohms. I played AC/DC and Judas Priest so loud that the clip LEDs were starting to flash. It was so LOUD, you couldn´t just stand there and say "yeah, that sounds great" (even if it did). Even with hearing protection, it was too loud. 500 or 700 watts into pretty much any speaker is going to be VERY loud! That said, I am a proponent of high wattage amps, but you definitely don´t NEED 500-700 watts, even for loud listening. I listen to almost exclusively Classical music these days, which has VERY high dynamics, and I think 100 watts would be enough to handle even the largest peaks with my speakers (Nubert 513).
The point of have more than enough power is not to blow your brains out, but to have enough power for any speaker to be able to play as loud as they can without distortion (100% clean sound), let the speakers be the limiting factor in spl not the amp th-cam.com/video/yeQPx-FrYZw/w-d-xo.html
@@gasolin75 I agree. I have 190w/ch@4 ohms. And I still have the QSC, if ever needed. I just have my doubts about what those meters are showing in this video. If the amps were really putting out 500-600 w/ch, they would have been blown out of the room IMHO.
@@nostradumbass4984 just think it show that bass needs alot more power than classical music when playing loud, just look at old jbl studio monitors from the 70's how big the woofer and cabinets are on the big models, they need to be big to play bass
@@gasolin75 Sure, synthetic bass can suck up huge amounts of power. I also had an 18" sub with a separate 420W amp. BTW some Classical music has huge amounts of bass, just not the pounding beat of more modern music. I agree with the premise of having lots of reserve power for dynamics.
750 watts peak demand?
Regularly over 500 watts?
This is truly an informative and eye opening video and Alan Shaw remains one of the most honest individuals in the world of high end audio. He's always willing to explore and learn all he can about loudspeaker reproduction and share it with us.
Thank you Mr Shaw.
Anyway 50 watts also sounds about right for the absolute minimum, depending upon the room, the volume, and of course the music.
Lets not also forget that Harbeth loudspeakers are designed to present a fairly benign load for amplication.
Other designs will need even more power!
As we have just witnessed, Electronic music, with its huge bandwidth can be surprisingly demanding when it comes to amplifier power demands.
Therefore a certain amount of occasional compression amd clipping is unfortunately unavoidable unless you are willing to put up with gigantic amplification and all of the associated issues that could bring with it.
I had the Harbeth P3ESR and my 50W amps had power meters. I never really went over a few Watts, and generally stated below 1 Watt in my small room whilst playing acoustic music. Interesting video!
You cant get to much power…. If you like headroom and dynamics👍
To
Two
Too
Three, different words - three, different meanings.
Since you don’t disclose the volume in DB when pumping out 500 watts it’s a completely useless demo.
The you actually starts playing dynamic music and claims that peak power is less ?! All digital recordings basically peaks at 0db so the volume has to do with how much you crank it up. Lets say you where playing at 112 db 2 m from the speakers. Reducing it to 102 db would get you peek 50 W. If you really want a dynamic electronic track , play set me free , Depeche Mode.
Did you notice that they are talking not far from the speakers while the music is still playing? SPL is probably not higher than 95dB, otherwise they would not hear each other.
ik zou wel eens dezelfde muziek en amp willen zien met efficientere weergevers. En dan nog eens kijken hoeveel Watts erin gaan. Blijkbaar is de Harbeth een heftig gedempte weergever. Oftewel, de titel van deze vid zou moeten zijn, hoeveel power heb je nodig voor Harbeth speaker, not generally speaking dus.
loudspeakers have sensitivities of about 85 to 95 dB for 1 W @ 1 m-an efficiency of 0.5-4%
I listen mostly to electronic music so I'm getting myself a more powerfull amp. This is truelly eye opening. I get why they use 10kw amps in even small clubs.
This video is one of the biggest demarketing for many potential harbeth customers
In fact I have a shl5 anniversary and a p3esr. In my experience the p3esr is easier to drive, despite the low sensitivity. It works really well even with low power and high quality tube amps, provided you listen in low volumes. That’s why I think this video is a demarketing for Harbeth, because one could enjoy this speaker with low power. The SHL5 is another history and my experience is more inline with yours. It plays well with low watts, but will open up and shine with amps that can provide high current during the music transients and amps that have high slew rates.
when he said he had an amp with a meter on it, I got excited to see a pair of bad ass McIntosh MC2KW's with that blue meter.... but these will do.
What amp are these
Great video. Thank you.
Gotta say that room sounds pretty horrible, just by listening to their voices. Get some thick carpet down and some "stuff" in the room to soak up those long decays in the 200Hz region. Sounds like our store room at work😅
Wonder what happens to melodic acoustic tracks with that power of amplification?
I enjoy my PSB T8 PLATINUM driven by an upgraded Carver M1.5t power amp that can drive 700 wpc into 4 ohms. Very nice combination.
600 watts in that immense space
no you believe everything you see. what did professor tell you. see below for explanation.
Harbeth speakers really do sound great. But when you hear the company owner's theory behind them or his approach towards amplifiers, you really have to wonder how that is possible...
It’s the same maths for all but the very highest efficiency‘speakers.
Audiophiles fool themselves that a handful of Watts is sufficient - without ever using an oscilloscope to realise their beloved amplifier is clipping on peaks.
That’s why so many love their tube (valve) amps - because the distortion is less noticeable.
This just means Harbeth speakers are very inefficient but also the majority of power is going into the bass. Direct radiator bass is quite inefficient.This is why bass horns exist.
Anyone knows title and band of the first track played?
Hi, I tried with Shazam, then Sound hound to find out what music it is. No success ! But, during the video, the guy shows his cell and I believe it's to tell us what band it is. Just pause the video and take a note.
@@marsattacks7071 Thanks. The track is called 'Laptevinmeri' from Pan Sonic's 2007 album 'Katodivaihe'.
i would like to know this too
Legend...
Can anyone let me know what amplifier was playing the song
CH Precision
It is a pity you play a string quartet at normal listening levels about 70 db
Imho something is very wrong here or the speakers have a very low SPL.
you're right. dem VU meters are lying. see below.
The test that they have carried out is 100% floored. You need to take the reading from the speaker taps on the rear of the amplifiers. You need to be using the correct piece of equipment to take the reading. You need to prove to the viewer that the piece of equipment that is taking the reading is calibrated and working correctly. Once you have satisfied all of the above then take the readings and then you will see what is really happening and what power is going to the speakers. And that is the truth of the matter...⏏⏹⏺⏪▶⏩⏸
No, this video is misleading.
CH precision VU-meters are misleading, They
1. Measure peak power, not RMS (that adds extremely roughly 2x more power) and more importantly
2. In mono mode, CH precision amplifier VU-meters double (2x) again.
So in that video, divide what you see by four (4) very roughly and that would give what we more easily understand as power requirements. This video is not helpful at all.
I think their point was that peaks matter and that’s why you need the extra power. You don’t need the power when the unit is off.
I don't know about the VU meters doing what you're saying at is seems highly unlikely for them to do that. They know it's in mono mode and it's digitaly controled so why have the wrong number showing. Mostlikely they look at current draws and that doesn't really lie.
I do know that your amp still has to be able to give you that peak power without hitting the rails. 700 watt peak is 500 watts rms. And 300 watts 2 channels that would give you about 1000 watts rms with a decent powersupply. So It does sound at least plausible what they are saying.
Even if you are right you still need 175 watts of clean power to give that reading. And that is into an reactive 8 ohm load, they are more like a 8-14 ohm load down low looking at the impedance curve. Not a lot of "audiophile" amps can do that.
50 What ? Class a ab d pffff
This mostly show how ineficent these speakers are. Most of that power go to the voice coil in heat and cause thermal compression.
you believing everything you see. see below
inefficient
And your point is? 🤷♂️
Loudspeakers have sensitivities of about 85 to 95 dB for 1 W @ 1 metre - an efficiency of 0.5-4%
So even the most efficient speakers waste 95% of the electrical power.
The point is simple, small speakers are compromised and when you have an efficient speaker you can get away with thermal compression. It sounds a lot better and more realistic than a small compromised box does. My speakers are close to the theoretical efficiency limit. Around 30% and a couple of watts is all that is needed.
So 20-30 watts to listen to music and 500-1000 watts to listen to electronic-techno-garbage in a living room the size of a disco . Got it. Thanks 🙏
Yes, it depends on the dynamics of the music.
Any music, even orchestral, that is dynamic will require similar power for realistic listening volumes at similar ‘speaker efficiency.
I learned something new with this demonstration today. Well done ! My dream is to own a pair of Harbeth 40.2 (or whatever might follow that model). That means, I will also need a new amp. I currently have a small Simaudio Moon integrated amp (built in Montreal city, Canada). It's a 50w 8 ohms or 100w 4 ohms. If I remember well, Harbeth speakers are at around 6 ohms of impedance. Not enough... I also dream of a Naim amplifier. The top of their line. Naims are high currents amplifiers even though they seem to have an average power. Naim amps are really known for their power to reproduce peaks (large and micro). They are "fast" amps and very articulated amps. Well, I can dream a long time......
Try Leak 30 or Rogers amps with this speakers, apple 4s phone clean DAC, You will be very impressed, big difference, this lovely speakers need 15 w old amp, not powerful, new and complicated with expensive cables to them, that what people get. Harman Kardon, Marantz..... old receivers Wow!
I like to ask a question on this demo.
If we belive speakers sensitivity has affected by its placement in the room.and that can affect the power demand of speakers. Can we say this test is enough to judge power requirement?
youre right. youre very clever. dem CHP Vu meters are lying POS. pls see below for explanation
Amazing video. What volume were you playing at? I wish you could have tried some rock music like Dire Straits and Pink Floyd? And if you could have done 2 channel movie. Btw, I’ve always heard great things about your speakers.
i don't think they watch this video on youtube
if you consider the 40.2 having an 86-87db sensitivity, fed 500-600 watts continious I would guess they are probably around 103-105 db , +/- 2db
@@sonicmainliner how do you figure that out when 100watt = +20db
@@gasolin75 it's not as linear a relationship, yes, you double for every 3db, but also consider that sensitivity is measured for volts, 2.83v. but that does not represent 1watt in 6ohms, it is probably 1.5watts,. If the realtionship were linear, then it would be 150watt for +20db, but as you saw if you play violins, you need 15watts, the moment you need to drive low bass, for the same volume they drew 600watts, and they said the violin track played louder, without considering peak draws of the bassy track. Also, we don't know how low the impedence is for the bass units of the speaker, but usually the bigger the driver and magnet, the lower it is, and the greater the power draw. Anyway, 103-5db is very loud , a lot louder than what you'd considered loud, and very impressive they can play at that volume with low distrortion. I think we over estimate power requirements for normal listening, and underestimate what it takes to sustain concert level volume.
@@sonicmainlineryou are mixing up DB A with SPL. 86 db 1 W would give 106 DB @ 100 W
I don´t agree with this. I had a pair of Cerwin Vega D-15EE speakers that were quite efficient. I think 94-96 db/W/m.
I fed them with a QSC GX5 amp, which puts out 700W/ch continuous into 4 ohms. I played AC/DC and Judas Priest so loud that the clip LEDs were starting to flash. It was so LOUD, you couldn´t just stand there and say "yeah, that sounds great" (even if it did). Even with hearing protection, it was too loud.
500 or 700 watts into pretty much any speaker is going to be VERY loud!
That said, I am a proponent of high wattage amps, but you definitely don´t NEED 500-700 watts, even for loud listening.
I listen to almost exclusively Classical music these days, which has VERY high dynamics, and I think 100 watts would be enough to handle even the largest peaks with my speakers (Nubert 513).
The point of have more than enough power is not to blow your brains out, but to have enough power for any speaker to be able to play as loud as they can without distortion (100% clean sound), let the speakers be the limiting factor in spl not the amp th-cam.com/video/yeQPx-FrYZw/w-d-xo.html
@@gasolin75 I agree. I have 190w/ch@4 ohms. And I still have the QSC, if ever needed.
I just have my doubts about what those meters are showing in this video. If the amps were really putting out 500-600 w/ch, they would have been blown out of the room IMHO.
@@nostradumbass4984 just think it show that bass needs alot more power than classical music when playing loud, just look at old jbl studio monitors from the 70's how big the woofer and cabinets are on the big models, they need to be big to play bass
@@gasolin75 Sure, synthetic bass can suck up huge amounts of power. I also had an 18" sub with a separate 420W amp.
BTW some Classical music has huge amounts of bass, just not the pounding beat of more modern music.
I agree with the premise of having lots of reserve power for dynamics.