I do hope that these Post Office officials will find themselves in the dock on criminal charges because there can be no doubt that their actions were criminal and with intent.
It should, but I doubt very much if any get prosecuted, I can see 1 or 2 people being sacrificial lambs to appease the peasants, one thing I can guarantee is that they will lot’s of platitudes hand wringing, pearl clutching and lessons will be learned 😀
And they also profited personally from their action. That money should be paid back with interest to the State and then on to those so grievously wronged.
And (and I respect our system of law, so thank heaven this is just fantasy) on the same basis as they used for the Postmasters - guilty until proven innocent. Betcha there would be less 'I don't know / don't recall / wasn't aware' then.....
@@Jan-sn5tk Yes on all accounts, as they knew they were in the wrong and did not disclose the fact plus they actively carried on telling lie's to mislead the courts.
A computer system of that size near-inevitably has issues. The "joke" is that they're not Bugs, but Features. Something's only a problem if you're not content with the way things are (go figure)
it be worth adding up all the time served by victims times it by 3 and hand out time the the real criminals who made a proffit to cover this up with honers and rewards .refuse the proper representation to defend them self to if they apeal.
The establishment always protect its self the Conservative Party was originally formed to do just that and has continued to hold this as its core value ever since sadly for them their venality and corruption of recent years has become so blatant or perhaps the non establishment are no longer prepared to tolerate their arrogant entitled behsviour
From the descriptions of the multiple ways it could fail to record transactions correctly, it didn't just have a few bugs. The phrase "not fit for purpose" comes to mind.
@@icouldbewrongicouldberight all computet systems are not infalable unless the humans writing the code required are total gods unable to be wrong which we know is an absolute impossibilty
My biggest fear about this is that those Post Office employees, Civil Service, Ministers who perjured themselves, withheld evidence and blackmailed Postmasters into paying money they never stole will face no legal consequences.
All the Post Office officials who provided inaccurate or misleading evidence should be jailed for perjury. They swore that the evidence they would provide would be THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
Why would they face consequences there is and has been for a long time a pandemic of entitlement and greed with no consequences for the elites of the world as welll as a culture of lying and cover up
Yep agree. Did you hear the lead 'investigater' giving evidence at the inquiry yesterday? Blaming all other parties, not a shred of remorse and giving a new low to incompetence. He signed off as the disclosure officer without supplying the documents and then blamed the solicitors for that failing.
why are these people not in jail? jeffer archer was jailed for 4 years for pugery and perverting the course of justice, but these people seem to be given massive bonuses, getting away scot free for their crimes, and ruined so many peoples lives,
Jeffery Archer was also the victim of a stitch up. He wasn't prosecuted for perjury per say, but because he embarrassed the establishment and 5 eyes Intel community. THAT offence is unforgivable. The perjury charge was a deliberate form of entrapment. Damned if you do... damned if you don't.
It sounds like these witnesses were small fish that were viewed as cannon fodder. They need to look much higher up to find out who the real perpetrators of the scam were.
I just bemoaning the fact that the establishment NEVER punish their own kind. Then I vaguely remembered Jeffrey Archer... One very rare occasion... The system is rigged against us and that this scandal is just one illustration of how corrupt and immoral this country is at levels where they should be leading by example... To go further, the higher up the power structures you go, the greater the penalty for fraud, perjury, disception and corruption.
How can anyone stand in court and twist things to try to convict innocent people, knowing full well that they are ruining the lives of those people and their families? They should all be brought to justice.
This sort of psychopathy is evident in civil cases also. And at the HMRC, wrongly and viciously targeting taxpayers. And plenty other govt departments, including the DWP which has no less than killed off thousands (by their own stats)
I'm compelled to listen to all the details of this case but always end up shaking with anger, how must have the victims felt and feel throughout all of this!
Thank you for this easy to digest for a layman post. My confidence in the Judiciary has been restored somewhat. What an eloquent way of saying the Post Office management and witnesses are a bunch of liars and criminals.
May I respectfully suggest that you give your head a wobble, if you are that easily appeased, The people who were prosecuted due to the Post Office being able to take out private prosecution’s, a 2 tier justice system that favours the wealthy!
@@Sonya_Makepeace I don't think judges like perjury. It's a total 'f-you' to the entire judicial system, including its judges. Observation suggests to me that in the UK, judges take it much more seriously than other places- like the US, for example. Look at the Aitkin case.
The post office are in a state of damage control. They will portray their actions over the entire horizon affair as “failings”. I do not like this terminology. Anyone can fail at something and failure doesn’t imply malice when it is now obvious they deliberately and maliciously went after the sub postmasters whilst knowing they were innocent.
It worries me more that they know holding their hands up and apologising in the first instance that they made a big mistake might have been a better PR move so the fact they're not doing that leads to more speculation about what else they could possibly be hiding (and I know speculation isn't particularly helpful). I really hope those who were affected by the whole affair will be properly compensated to find themselves in a position of financial stability, have their convictions quashed if applicable, and get some form of justice.
That people are prepared to give false witness in a Court of Law , on behalf of their employer, shocking though it appears, is no different to their willingness to sell their soul and give false witness for personal advancement in their daily life.
Thank God we still have straight, honest, intelligent and impartial Judges of this calibre. Thanks to yourself and Dan for highlighting this. It gives me hope that liars and post-truth flunkies will always be caught out and brought to book in this country.
@@wallacewhybrow2705 A judge can't arrest people. A judge can only suggest the police/CPS look at a case, and it seems they have done so. It's up to them now. Personally I hope they get every single person who lied under oath in this entire affair since what- 1999?- in court and charged with perjury. Every last one. Even the integrity of the judicial system itself surely demands that, and the sufferings of the postmasters certainly does. And anyone convicted ought to get a sentence that fits the harm they caused- given that in some cases the result of the lies was putting someone in jail, then jail it should be.
@@alisonwilson9749 Yes they must MUST be jailed 10 years. for twisting and lying in court and body langwidge to match. they thought nothing of destroying whole family's with their silly ways. JAIL>>!!!
I think not… weeks before the first lockdown figure published the the legal system showed the highest number of arrests for serious crimes in decades and at the same time, the lowest number of prosecutions. Courts prosecute in direct relation to the current governments political agenda. It’s either that or the police are incompetent… given the facts it could be either or both
The judges are as much at fault as the post office. Clearly not one even considered questioning the evidence. The only people who did anything useful were Mr Bates and friends, and Channel 4. Judges are so corrupt in this country it’s a joke. Just before the first lockdown the police reported the highest number of arrests for serious crimes in decades, the courts reported the least number of prosecutions. This country is dead in the water
Thank you for this. ALL Post Office senior management must now be held to be criminally accountable - along with the politician chap who's clutching his 'K'' so determinedly.
These guys have no problem with lying to judges. They definitely have no problem lying to politicians trying to investigate this over the years. Just watch some of the parliamentary select committees.
Ed Davey who was consistently lied to by the Post Office, who like all Post Office Ministers in post during this scandal both Labour and Tory was not allowed to influence the day to day running of the post Office. Tory Ministers lied about Brexit, Covid, parties etc. Ed Davey was lied to.
Sounds like a stitch- up! As Lady C says, a new trial with retired judges needs to be called. People must take responsibility, regardless of who they are. Thank you for putting the legal jargon into normal understanding!
@@Blitterbug The DPP You mean the Position that Kier Starmer held between 2008 and 2013, something else he oversaw and nothing got done,haha, don't hold your breath
I suspect most the public would happy to see them found guilty of Treason and given the same sentence as William Wallis. In fact, I think a lot of people would want to attend and watch, to be certain it was the true criminals. Including B. Liar (maybe with "Dr David Kelly" and "illegal invasions for the US" whispered in his ear as he is set up with the horses). Some of us would happily buy front row tickets.
Judge Fraser was an absolute hero & an example to the law proffesion. Listening to all sides, recognising flawed evidence & calling it out. Unlike many in the Law proffesion before during & after this scandal. He had respect for the law & truth, why is this so remarkable ? Sad for the " proffesion"
was this before the exsposer by ITV or after ? i do understand there can be at least one decent judge there are accidents this can happen but the 700 odd before him did what again.
I agree, but this is the gravest of crimes by falsely accusing innocent citizens. Lives have been lost and destroyed. True Justice needs to be served without prejudice to those who are proven to be complicit.
It's just a small glimpse of our Justice system.😱 They were scared to run a trial. It's not uncommon amongst normal working folk. We all know that conviction depends on how Hot Shot your lawyer is!🙄 Mr Loophole was the Stars go to man. ...is that Justice? It's clearly not Justice for all.🥴 All animals are equal !! but some animals are more equal than others?
Regardless of position. Being a politician. Head of the Post Office whoever? The usual leaving, retiring before any charges are brought about. Thus just walking away from it all with the big pensions etc has to stop! Doing this kind of thing in any situation is wrong. But apart from the Debt. Criminal Record. Evictions and years of mental health issues caused by this scandal. Innocent people were killing themselves. People involved in this must be held accountable with the full force of the law thrown at them like anyone else would be treated!!
it will not stop! it cannot stop.....why? that would mean that the whole system would have to stop. hence what we have here is just a dog & pony show for the "outraged from tumbridge wells" crowd. sure, they will go after one or two....the majority will face nothing. its no coincidence in the usa there is another "big show" going on ( more than one in their case )
Yes. They haven't been given recognition. The inquiry examining Steve Bradshaw today showed how he interrogated a16 year old girl who was falsely convicted.
I think the post office scandal is the tip of the iceberg of public office mismanagement.I think an inquiry into planning and housing would be interesting.
Seems to me the whole system is corrupt beyond salvation. Is it worth anyone’s time and effort ,bothering to vote for ANY politician in Britain. They all fall foul to cover up. The power corrupts them, I think I will not be voting again. My apologies to all in the past who fought for the rights of us all to vote. Our leaders are spineless.
That judges was seriously p1ssed with the people associated with the Post Office, nice to see a judge publicly calling out blatant bad behaviour (especially when it's on behalf of big companies that think they can do what they want, without penalty).
Fraud, perjury and obstruction of the law are just for starters. When it was suspected it was postmasters at fault, it was prison. Then when it’s suspected of the bosses, it’s let’s not rush to judgment. Always the same.
The mendacity of those witnesses was breathtaking. I sincerely hope that there will be consequences. On a side note, one wonders whether Ms. Venall’s second job as a Church of England vicar is tenable. Her diocese is backing her but the average person in the pew might feel differently.
Brilliant summary. Been following the matter since Private Eye first started reporting on it ages ago. Astonished that so many people seem to have been ignorant of it till itv’s show.
It turns out that Horizon was not the best system assessed by the PO in fact in most areas it was the worst, it was chosen because it was the cheapest. Probably against the advice of their own technical people it was used because it was cheaper. Long term it looks like the cheapest option will cost a fortune in compensation. I have seen this in my former industry, a “ cheaper solution “ costs a small fortune, delays implementation for years and never quite works and costs a fortune in technical support.
I had a read of documents about how ICL Pathway (the company created to bid for the contract - later absorbed into Fujitsu) ended up with the contract. There were initially 5 contenders - later reduced to 3 - which included ICL Pathway and IBM. It seems that on cost alone the bids from IBM and ICL Pathway were pretty much equal but ICL Pathway was willing to accept a higher degree of risk - particularly fraud risk - which appears to have been the deciding factor in them winning the PFI deal.
If you look at the sheer quantity of people accused as fiddling the books, the PO Management Team should have seen it as a red flag that something wasn't right in the new system. The "failure" at the top is either incompetence or a wilful cover-up.... in this case, both.
Any decent project team would have monitored user feedback and see if the reported “issues/faults” could be replicated. There must be test logs, surely?
Not only that, but the fact that with the Postmasters using the old accountants book method of counting all products sold and counting the cash taking in at the end of the day always resulted in the days takings being recorded and approved daily. The post office should have looked at how these postmasters were able to accurately record the days dealings to the PO’s satisfaction should also have seen this as a red flag
How were the Prosecution allowed to submit evidence of the Interviews when they were conducted by refusing the defendants access to Legal representation?
If fraud had actually occurred, the SPM would have the money somewhere or have spent it. How come the PO never produced any evidence of this. Where did the "stolen" money go? Thin air?
@@PortilloMomentI think he means . Where did all these postmasters hide the supposed missing money. It never existed. Usually in fraud trials they can show extra money in the perpetrators accounts, or in their lifestyle extra holidays etc.
If I had been a SPM, I would have got Horizon to keep doubling up so that it showed I was down a million quid - even the numpty, evil management would have difficulty persuading a court that a million quid was missing from a business handling just a few thousand every day. Anyway, let’s hoe that if criminal offences have been committed, these people find themselves Bedford the courts. Also, let us not forget the role of Fujitsu in all this who should have come clean in the hearing rather than being bought down to ground level by a whistle blower - they are equally culpable!!!!
Many thanks for giving us understandable and accurate reporting on all this. We usually called the Post Office help facility the Hell Line which says it all really.
I never believed it from the first brief MSM report on the TV news, when the public didn't know the extent. Also did not know that it would be allowed to continue to affect so many more. That was many years ago. Perhaps going on for two decades. It simply didn't stand to reason. So many even then. I bet the nasty piece of work who spat in the man's face won't think to go and do the same to any of the real culprits. She would know she would be arrested for their sake. Do you think that a former head of the Criminal Cases Review Commission was on TV yesterday, looking very angry indeed. He stated that new legislation should only be enacted when all other avenues have been exhausted and that hasn't happened. He went on to explain that the CRCC and the highest court could have concluded the matter within only a few months. I suspect the misgovernment illegally enacted new legislation (it was illegal as it breached law by previous legislation and traditional law from previous legislations), in order to have control over the amount of compensation paid? Also to have control of any Public Inquiry and the outcome? Of course, I am surmising it could have been referred to the CRCC a long time ago as well as very recently, and for whatever reason wasn't. Of if wasn't, I wonder why not? Who decided it shouldn't be? Apart from this, we all know by now that they the relatives of those in uppermost control (bankers, their royal relatives and politician family members etc) tell their lesser relatives now quite long placed in all MSM (and now much social media) what to allow and not allow their news agencies to be bring to the attention of the public. They only ever allow scandals where their own are culprits are the criminals to be exposed when they have a strong enough reason. Such as to distract from other heinous behaviour they are currently up to. It was on ceefax yesterday that the misgovernment mobsters have "postponed" the Inquiry into the witches brew itself until after the next general election. Of course we know there will be a change of guard again, and who knows if it will then ever be investigated to any extent? Or if it is, then by whom? Also in the news. Sunak and his mobsters are giving Gibraltar to Spain. This will mean that people from Africa will be able to sail through the Strait of Gibraltar, unhindered, because Spain certainly won't stop them on our behalf. Apart from even more illegal migrants, there will be a sharp increase in people trafficking to and fro. Including and perhaps especially of children. I am glad that you and other victims have received some sort of resolution at last, if you are all happy with it. Even if it isn't what it should and could have been through the CCRC. If all victims are content to settle for what has been done in such a hurry after such a very long length of time, then it is for all of you to judge whether you are willing to accept what had been done. I truly hope that you all go on to have far better lives in the future. I do wonder about the loved ones of those who tragically ended their own lives, as well as those who have passed away before this. Not only their legal relatives but anyone they were co-habitating with lung term, especially if they had children or long term but not adopted Stephen children. I suspect they won't have a fair portion awarded as part of the estate of the deceased. Where distraction from other heinous behaviour is concerned, there is too much even recently for me to list. Some of it wouldn't be allowed mention on yt anyway. The fact that MSM are still giving so much time and attention to the matter, now seemingly 'settled', is proof it is being misused to distract the public, Imo. MSM could and should have moved on to cover the "postponement" of the Inquiry into the various toxic darts, Gibraltar and more. They could always have returned to reporting on the Royal Mail/post office scandal over time. I expect MSM will drop coverage like a ton of bricks when there isn't anything immediate that they don't want the public to notice. Remember that they are all at least in the funny handshake club, and are sworn to protect each other right or wrong (even when they do very occasionally sacrifice those of lower degrees). We must always try and discover the track records and usual decisions of those involved, to see if they are likely to be genuinely for truth and justice or if it is more subterfuge. Best wishes for you and yours.
I read that Fujitsu warned the then Royal Mail that more than one terminal together would not work properly. If true, those responsible will use Fujitsu as a scapegoat anyway if they can.
@@Woodman-Spare-that-tree"The Sale of Goods Act 1979 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which regulated English contract law and UK commercial law in respect of goods that are sold and bought." Hth
@@Woodman-Spare-that-tree Much of it applies to businesses but for a multi-million pound contract like ICL (as it then was) had to supply Horizon everything is written down - which is why the entire contract document is over 900 pages long.
All those involved from the Post Office should be held to account by the judiciary, & if found guilty sent to prison! They should also be sued personally for the amount of money they fraudulently claimed off the Subpostmasters! Fujitsu should also be held liable for their part in this disgusting saga! Then there is the question of who is responsible for the deaths of the four who committed suicide! Wrongful convictions for as much as £100K! drove one of them to not being able to cope with the situation when he knew he was innocent! Paula Vennell tried to mask over her guilt by being in the priesthood and pleading to be absolved! The only thing that became apparent was she has no conscience what so ever! Willfully destroying the lives of these honest hard working Subpostmasters during the week then being all righteous and good on the weekend to her parishioners!
What do you think of the admission at the inquiry by Bradshaw, the former Post Office Investigator, that his witness statement was written by the PO's lawyers without his involvement and he just signed it. Is that not problematic legally? Must a witness statement by an individual be written by the individual themselves, and if not, should it be made clear in the statement who wrote it and/or whose words and analysis they are?
If one makes a victim statement at the cop shop, it's drafted (handwritten) by the cop (based on what you tell them happened). This reputedly is because, in order to secure a conviction, certain conditions need to be net, and there are standard phrases which can be used to meet such conditions. The post office was effectively the police in this matter. Hth
There must be a great many present and former post office staff who are now regretting how their support for this organisation is now being disclosed. When a judge refers witnesses to the CPS for purgery and nothing happens then I know things are being swept under the carpet.
I’m expecting the usual ‘we’ve made changes to our systems to make sure this ever happens again’ response from them and ‘can we have a bonus for doing so’. There should no hiding place for them.
While it is understandable to some degree that judges are overly careful with their words for the reasons you give, this becomes part of the problem when, as has been happening these last few years, egregious liars spout egregious lies and are neither called out nor chastised nor - what actually should happen - accused of and tried for 1. contempt of court and 2. perjury. To lie at court has basically become accepted, which has long since undermined justice. A witness who is more or less a civil servant caught demonstrably lying in a case such as this in a way such as this, should get an immediate fine and ultimately serve prison time.
That's the role of the DPP. Judge stays squeaky clean so that it doesn't become a defense to say the judge was biased. They stay stronger this way. They refer stuff to the DPP, who decides what should be a charge. In this case I'd be checking who at the post office has lunch with whom from the DPP though
their actions were criminal and with intent. They did not hold back with the post masters made to pay, took to court, jailed. And some suicide they have a case to answer
I knew a lady who worked at a post office when they had their first system fitted It didn't work out of the box, as she had a good computing background she was saying that they had trouble getting it to work without shutting down or freezing. then her bosses used to call her to get the system to work as the help line was unobtainable when needed.
Many years ago I was envolved in a dispute with a department of government and was amazed by their liberal attitude to accuracy and truth. They could have had a good career in writing. What also got my attention was how they brought their inventions to court with every expectation of being believed. This case certainly brings back memories.
A vile scandal that has probably stained 2 generations of families shortened lives. I believe some very nasty people held the reins of the friendly post office.
Except all this corruption and incompetence started after the post office got privatised. Its always the same, service suffers, costs go up. EDIT: Apologies, I was wrong, Horizon started a lot earlier than I thought. But the fact remains the situation didn't improve with privatisation, and it's not like private corporations have never been guilty of incompetence, or worse, fraud.
@@alliedatheistalliance6776 It's astonishing that you think a change in the names on the owners' docs would have such a huge impact. They acted as they did and were favored in courts precisely because they're a quasi-governmental agency - exactly what you'd expect from public sector scumbags.
@@alliedatheistalliance6776 Actually the Post Office is still public. It was the Royal Mail that was privatised. But Fujitsu is certainly private. On another thread someone proposed privatising the PO. To which a wit responded, if the solution is to privatise the PO by the same logic it must be to nationalise Fujitsu! This isn't a public private issue. It's a big bureaucracy issue.
@@gileshumphry I take it you received a British education,which would explain your false comparison: the public sector is bound by the logic of its position; the private sector is the infinite possibility of everything else and thus not comparable. At least Fujitsu doesn't have prosecuting authority, and would receive the inferior treatment reserved for non-public persons - such as the 900+ abused by courts at the Post Office's behest.
I don't agree with it being dismantled (although it might have to be sold off to pay for all those wrong prosecutions). All this country and others needs is people who abide by honesty, integrity and be unafraid to speak out and ensure investigations are carried out thoroughly and without bias. Truth and integrity are in short supply within most of the Global populations. Especially when it involves leaders, people with fortunes, Government Departments and Private Industrial Complexes. These are the ones who will say/do anything to gain advantages and cover their arse (backside for those with poor English)!!! New subscriber via Daniel.
What do you think of the judiciarie's role in this evil saga? It seems to me that they have simply acted as the Post Office's rubber stamp. The fact that they call themselves Justices is laughable.
How were they supposed to know witnesses were lying about a computer system?- the law as it is means a computer system has to be assumed to be working properly unless a defendant can prove otherwise- how are defendants supposed to do that? The law needs changing, yes, but judges have to work within the laws as they are. We also have laws about perjury that are supposed to prevent lying in court, so when people do lie, people ought to be prosecuted for perjury, otherwise it will not put anyone else off lying.
@@alisonwilson9749 They got evidence from both sides but automatically assumed the accused was lying because they 'know' that the government never lies.
Remember the SPMs were prosecuted by the PO, not by the CPS - and the PO has clearly abused its prosecutorial powers and failed to disclose evidence during those trials. One outcome from this must be that the PO has its investigatorial and prosecutorial powers stripped, and they should be held to account for perverting the course of justice.
i think the justice system provided the post office with a very good service with out the judges in on this it could of never happened for so long so many times .the loyalty to the post office we only admire their efforts to hide and protect the very rich and powerfull to get this burried for so long .this took a lot of comming to gether and team work it very impressive .
The thing that I have to ask is, what is the Law Society doing about this whole fiasco. There are lawyers out there that should be removed from the profession, the profession should be demanding that they are prosecuted.
Strong strong words from the Judge. Hurrah! To me the P.O. is using a 'Boris' style of presentation. Seen more and more these days. Thank you for this vid. 😊
It was starmer who covered up.for the post office as DPP - not to mention savile and the Rotherham rings! Yet Boris ate birthday cake that he never ate so he had to go! We're not stupid...
In short, extremely practiced liars, coached in what to answer to within an inch of their lives, and having their financial future threatened in order to ensure absolute obedience. Especially, their pensions, and especially, any ‘frilly’ benefits they might have or hope to get, that are not utterly guaranteed by law or their contract. To wit, early retirement is often held almost entirely in the discretion of a senior manager or director. These people were dishonest, but I can smell a huge amount of bullying and fear lacing this whole organisation at HQ both Post Office and Fujitsu. What an ugly spectacle. Unedifying for the individuals concerned, discrediting, and yet…if they toed the line, they will have been paid and pensioned, you wait and we’ll find out. ‘Company men and women’ are always rewarded. They are not rewarded to have a conscience.
Did any judge who presided over trials of subpostmasters and mistresses that found them guilty of theft have the gumption to look at the defendant, think he/she does not look like a thief, and take responsibility for trying to get to the bottom of what the hell was happening at the Post Office and why and how? ..... The judges who sent innocent men and women to prison are guilty in this scandal too. COMMON SENSE should have led some of them to question the fairness of what was happening in their courts ... did any of these self-righteous, overpaid public servants act with any sense of personal responsibility to get to the bottom of this scandal years ago?
I’ve said it before and I will no doubt say it again, why do legal proceedings have to wait for the interminable inquiry to finish? People lied under oath, the evidence is already there, they should be done for perjury.
With the way the establishment has dealt with the sub post office business I can only think that there was a conspiracy to get rid of small shops in favour for the supermarkets, why else has this travesty occurred ?
I read somewhere that the only subpostoffices experiencing the "fraud" were those they were extra keen to close. Lol perhaps Professor Pantsdown can construct a spreadsheet assessing probability
I believe these slippery individuals have escaped prosecution for perjury if for no other reason than the flowery language used by the judge. We know what he said and we probably know what he meant but he didn’t take it far enough. Then we have Civil Service inertia. If this organisation was glue it would be strongest in the world as nothing could get it to shift.
Watching the enquiry with Steve Bradshaw the ex TV licence goon promoted to hound and scapegoat the PO postmasters suggests that he has better get used to slopping out.
@@TesterAnimal1"Post Office investigator [Steve Bradshaw] 'who behaved like a Mafia gangster' was accused of 'disgusting behaviour' and having an 'unbearable attitude' as he interviewed sub-postmasters over claims of theft, Horizon scandal inquiry hears" Is OP saying that prior to that role he was a TV Licence inspector 🤷
Judges use code about our submissions too. "Ambitious" means you're trying to make a silks purse out of a sow's ear "Intriguing" means the judge had no idea what you were on about "Novel" means they think you should be sectioned.
@@coachhousechambers2047 I am greatly enjoying Julian Blake and Sir Wyn Williams. Sir Wyn seems such a jolly character; then he intervenes, looking slightly bewildered and, with that broad Welsh accent, sticks the knife in before the witness knows he has one.
Does anyone truly feel real justice will be done. It seems to me that these Post Office executives, lawyers and certain government bureaucrats are above the law.
`Inaccurate factual evidence’ is that polite speak for lies? Aren’t lies on the stand perjury? Don’t you face charges and jail time for perjury under oath? Shouldn’t these people now be in jail?
How likely is it that there will actually be perjury prosecutions? Is there any chance that the management who encouraged perjury, explicitly or implicitly, will face legal consequences? One lying witness is one thing, but a whole bunch of them, seemingly all of them, means a culture of lying.
Wow. The more I learn about this subject the more I am sickened. I'm struggling to understand why the Post Office were pursuing Sub Postmasters for money they knew very well hadn't been stolen. What benefit did they get from destroying so many people's lives? I mean playing devil's advocate I can see a manager following this route once but seeing the effect it had on the defendant refusing to carry on, again and again. What's your gut feeling, do you think there will be charges brought against individuals in the Post Office?
@@amandamcauley I agree Amanda. In my opinion aside from perjury there are criminal charges to answer. I see the establishment closing ranks though. The rot goes very deep.
I do not believe for one second that the senior managers and board will face any charges…they might throw a few investigators to the wolves (deservedly), but the people who really caused this will get away with it. Look at every other ‘independent’ enquiry ever and nothing happens. The establishment ALWAYS looks after its own. Take it as read that crusty old established peers and their like will already consider that Vennels losing her CBE is punishment enough. What price a similar TV licence scandal will be next!
Thankyou for your great work with your channel.....'The Judge will pass on some of the witness evidence to the DPP' made my day !!! I hope this is just the start of more and more real Justice!!!
I hope the Post Office now realizes that we know what they did. There is no escaping it anymore. They failed in their attempts to cover up and now they will be held accountable. As to the "witnesses", I find their actions deplorable when they knew the impact that this had on so many people. Some committed suicide and they undoubtedly contributed to that by lying and perjuring themselves.
I don't know if this point has been raised anywhere but a number of Post Office branches are contained within stores such as W.H. Smith. That was the case here in Royal Wootton Bassett until recently. I assume they were on the Horizon system too and would have encountered the same problems. Did the Post Office prosecute or even investigate any of them or did they just go after the little man?
Just a crying shame these judges dont say it exactly as it is instead of the soft approach words. Maybe if they had things wouldnt have gone as far as it did
For any of the victims who might be reading (I did write this as a reply to one such, but his comment has gone for some reason). I never believed it from the first brief MSM report on the TV news, when the public didn't know the extent. Also did not know that it would be allowed to continue to affect so many more. That was many years ago. Perhaps going on for two decades. It simply didn't stand to reason. So many even then. I bet the nasty piece of work who spat in the man's face won't think to go and do the same to any of the real culprits. She would know she would be arrested for their sake. Do you think that a former head of the Criminal Cases Review Commission was on TV yesterday, looking very angry indeed. He stated that new legislation should only be enacted when all other avenues have been exhausted and that hasn't happened. He went on to explain that the CRCC and the highest court could have concluded the matter within only a few months. I suspect the misgovernment illegally enacted new legislation (it was illegal as it breached law by previous legislation and traditional law from previous legislations), in order to have control over the amount of compensation paid? Also to have control of any Public Inquiry and the outcome? Of course, I am surmising it could have been referred to the CRCC a long time ago as well as very recently, and for whatever reason wasn't. Of if wasn't, I wonder why not? Who decided it shouldn't be? Apart from this, we all know by now that they the relatives of those in uppermost control (bankers, their royal relatives and politician family members etc) tell their lesser relatives now quite long placed in all MSM (and now much social media) what to allow and not allow their news agencies to be bring to the attention of the public. They only ever allow scandals where their own are culprits are the criminals to be exposed when they have a strong enough reason. Such as to distract from other heinous behaviour they are currently up to. It was on ceefax yesterday that the misgovernment mobsters have "postponed" the Inquiry into the witches brew itself until after the next general election. Of course we know there will be a change of guard again, and who knows if it will then ever be investigated to any extent? Or if it is, then by whom? Also in the news. Sunak and his mobsters are giving Gibraltar to Spain. This will mean that people from Africa will be able to sail through the Strait of Gibraltar, unhindered, because Spain certainly won't stop them on our behalf. Apart from even more illegal migrants, there will be a sharp increase in people trafficking to and fro. Including and perhaps especially of children. I am glad that you and other victims have received some sort of resolution at last, if you are all happy with it. Even if it isn't what it should and could have been through the CCRC. If all victims are content to settle for what has been done in such a hurry after such a very long length of time, then it is for all of you to judge whether you are willing to accept what had been done. I truly hope that you all go on to have far better lives in the future. I do wonder about the loved ones of those who tragically ended their own lives, as well as those who have passed away before this. Not only their legal relatives but anyone they were co-habitating with lung term, especially if they had children or long term but not adopted Stephen children. I suspect they won't have a fair portion awarded as part of the estate of the deceased. Where distraction from other heinous behaviour is concerned, there is too much even recently for me to list. Some of it wouldn't be allowed mention on yt anyway. The fact that MSM are still giving so much time and attention to the matter, now seemingly 'settled', is proof it is being misused to distract the public, Imo. MSM could and should have moved on to cover the "postponement" of the Inquiry into the various toxic darts, Gibraltar and more. They could always have returned to reporting on the Royal Mail/post office scandal over time. I expect MSM will drop coverage like a ton of bricks when there isn't anything immediate that they don't want the public to notice. Remember that they are all at least in the funny handshake club, and are sworn to protect each other right or wrong (even when they do very occasionally sacrifice those of lower degrees). We must always try and discover the track records and usual decisions of those involved, to see if they are likely to be genuinely for truth and justice or if it is more subterfuge. Best wishes for you and yours.
Beyond interesting Maître Robertshaw ! I very much respect and enjoy the British sense of legal discretion in such matters. Plain speaking whilst very much to the point and granting the perjuror a moducum of self-respect in the process. Truly elegant use of language.
All of these criticisms could be said of the corporate CP's in the Grenfell Tower Inquiry - same ol same ol. Dear Barrister, What is the UK law system going to do about individuals shirking responsibility by simply changing jobs in the business/ corporate sector?? Is there ANYONE in those professions who has taken a new senior post and NOT found themselves saying ' well, erm, that happened before I got here..'? Ordinary and empathic people can see this is a MAJOR problem and something needs to be done about it. I think seeing white collars go to jail is the ONLY short term solution which may well avoid riots.
The verbatim quotes are helpful to hear, albeit depressing. We should recall that substantial financial incentives were offered to PO management for each court case that resulted in the postmaster being found guilty…
This is great! Having closely followed the testimony of the witnesses to The Inquiry the last couple of weeks, this summary from the Judge is very satisfying.
6:00 Van DbG getting a taste of her own medicine in this section - you've signed something to say you're responsible and then you don't agree with it later on? Sound familiar?
I have made the only choice of downing Micardis Plus and beta blockers before watching you Post Office stories. Now that I am safe, please keep the coming. I am "vaguely interested" in your vaguely useful coverage. All brilliant Mr Robertshaw. #vaguelyinteresting
![ILLSLICK - THE KING'S LANDING [Freestyle]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/feIJJnNkTfk/mqdefault.jpg)
I do hope that these Post Office officials will find themselves in the dock on criminal charges because there can be no doubt that their actions were criminal and with intent.
It should, but I doubt very much if any get prosecuted, I can see 1 or 2 people being sacrificial lambs to appease the peasants, one thing I can guarantee is that they will lot’s of platitudes hand wringing, pearl clutching and lessons will be learned 😀
What happened to perjury charges?
And they also profited personally from their action. That money should be paid back with interest to the State and then on to those so grievously wronged.
I don't want to see them in the dock, I want to see them in prison
Not a chance in hell
Paula Vennels and other CEO's should be held to account and taken to court for fraud and Blackmail, Extortion and misleading the court system.
As well as all of those 'witnesses' who lied in courts multiple times to cover it up.
And (and I respect our system of law, so thank heaven this is just fantasy) on the same basis as they used for the Postmasters - guilty until proven innocent. Betcha there would be less 'I don't know / don't recall / wasn't aware' then.....
Did they pervert the course of justice?
@@Jan-sn5tk Yes on all accounts, as they knew they were in the wrong and did not disclose the fact plus they actively carried on telling lie's to mislead the courts.
Yes, yes they did.
She perjured herself in giving evidence that there was no internal knowledge of problems with horizon. She should be imprisoned for perjury
A computer system of that size near-inevitably has issues. The "joke" is that they're not Bugs, but Features. Something's only a problem if you're not content with the way things are (go figure)
it be worth adding up all the time served by victims times it by 3 and hand out time the the real criminals who made a proffit to cover this up with honers and rewards .refuse the proper representation to defend them self to if they apeal.
The establishment always protect its self the Conservative Party was originally formed to do just that and has continued to hold this as its core value ever since sadly for them their venality and corruption of recent years has become so blatant or perhaps the non establishment are no longer prepared to tolerate their arrogant entitled behsviour
From the descriptions of the multiple ways it could fail to record transactions correctly, it didn't just have a few bugs. The phrase "not fit for purpose" comes to mind.
@@icouldbewrongicouldberight all computet systems are not infalable unless the humans writing the code required are total gods unable to be wrong which we know is an absolute impossibilty
My biggest fear about this is that those Post Office employees, Civil Service, Ministers who perjured themselves, withheld evidence and blackmailed Postmasters into paying money they never stole will face no legal consequences.
Handing back the CBE is a start, but needs to go further.
As a betting man its odds on they wont.from anevidential point of view no chance.the evidence being piper atlpha the high rise fire many others😊
All the Post Office officials who provided inaccurate or misleading evidence should be jailed for perjury. They swore that the evidence they would provide would be THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
Compensation aside! That’s my fear! These ar*holes will get away with it and not get their just deserts!!🤬!
Why would they face consequences there is and has been for a long time a pandemic of entitlement and greed with no consequences for the elites of the world as welll as a culture of lying and cover up
The managers who hounded innocent people need to be brought before the courts .
Yep agree. Did you hear the lead 'investigater' giving evidence at the inquiry yesterday? Blaming all other parties, not a shred of remorse and giving a new low to incompetence. He signed off as the disclosure officer without supplying the documents and then blamed the solicitors for that failing.
aye, and claimed to be working to Pace rules, but where are the recordings, then?
why are these people not in jail? jeffer archer was jailed for 4 years for pugery and perverting the course of justice, but these people seem to be given massive bonuses, getting away scot free for their crimes, and ruined so many peoples lives,
It's called fraud , milking , Deception .
Jeffery Archer was also the victim of a stitch up. He wasn't prosecuted for perjury per say, but because he embarrassed the establishment and 5 eyes Intel community. THAT offence is unforgivable. The perjury charge was a deliberate form of entrapment. Damned if you do... damned if you don't.
It sounds like these witnesses were small fish that were viewed as cannon fodder. They need to look much higher up to find out who the real perpetrators of the scam were.
Also Jonathan Aitken.
I just bemoaning the fact that the establishment NEVER punish their own kind. Then I vaguely remembered Jeffrey Archer... One very rare occasion... The system is rigged against us and that this scandal is just one illustration of how corrupt and immoral this country is at levels where they should be leading by example... To go further, the higher up the power structures you go, the greater the penalty for fraud, perjury, disception and corruption.
How can anyone stand in court and twist things to try to convict innocent people, knowing full well that they are ruining the lives of those people and their families? They should all be brought to justice.
Because, like it or not, it's what prosecution and defence barristers get paid to do. They are devoid of emotions or feelings of guilt.
This sort of psychopathy is evident in civil cases also. And at the HMRC, wrongly and viciously targeting taxpayers. And plenty other govt departments, including the DWP which has no less than killed off thousands (by their own stats)
@@davidspear9790 I know - I meant the witnesses on the PO side.
They have to protect their own pensions.
That’s the public sector for you… entitled morons that think we need them lol
I'm compelled to listen to all the details of this case but always end up shaking with anger, how must have the victims felt and feel throughout all of this!
Same buddy- it’s bloody heartbreaking 😢👍🤝
I feel you. It’s infuriating and heartbreaking. Makes you lose faith in humanity.
how many more inacent people who been lied to served time due to information burried by either the police or a major corperation or a fat tory mp.
Thank you for this easy to digest for a layman post. My confidence in the Judiciary has been restored somewhat. What an eloquent way of saying the Post Office management and witnesses are a bunch of liars and criminals.
May I respectfully suggest that you give your head a wobble, if you are that easily appeased, The people who were prosecuted due to the Post Office being able to take out private prosecution’s, a 2 tier justice system that favours the wealthy!
It's just words. Nothing will be done about them. It's all theatre to make you think the judiciary are on your side.
@@Sonya_Makepeace The evidence? And your crystal ball doesn't count.
@@Demun1649 We'll have to wait and see then, won't we?
@@Sonya_Makepeace I don't think judges like perjury. It's a total 'f-you' to the entire judicial system, including its judges. Observation suggests to me that in the UK, judges take it much more seriously than other places- like the US, for example. Look at the Aitkin case.
The post office are in a state of damage control. They will portray their actions over the entire horizon affair as “failings”. I do not like this terminology. Anyone can fail at something and failure doesn’t imply malice when it is now obvious they deliberately and maliciously went after the sub postmasters whilst knowing they were innocent.
Thank you ……..is it not these very details that will undo the criminality? Thanks for shining a light on them.
It worries me more that they know holding their hands up and apologising in the first instance that they made a big mistake might have been a better PR move so the fact they're not doing that leads to more speculation about what else they could possibly be hiding (and I know speculation isn't particularly helpful). I really hope those who were affected by the whole affair will be properly compensated to find themselves in a position of financial stability, have their convictions quashed if applicable, and get some form of justice.
The whole country is in a state of damage control - or rather it soon will be, when it begins to dawn what is actually happening.
Have they said ‘lessons will be learnt' yet…haha that’s the usual we'll just be drawing a line under this situation comment.
@@hotpotato4027 You missed out, "We have taken it onboard"
That people are prepared to give false witness in a Court of Law , on behalf of their employer, shocking though it appears, is no different to their willingness to sell their soul and give false witness for personal advancement in their daily life.
Perjury is perjury, for whatever spurious reason, why were these witnesses not arrested and charged?
@@wallacewhybrow2705 The judge sent the file to the DPP . No doubt we will find out in due time , slow slow quick quick slow.
Thank God we still have straight, honest, intelligent and impartial Judges of this calibre. Thanks to yourself and Dan for highlighting this. It gives me hope that liars and post-truth flunkies will always be caught out and brought to book in this country.
These judges were obviously aware that these witnesses were commuting Perjury. In which case, why were they not arrested and charged?
@@wallacewhybrow2705 A judge can't arrest people. A judge can only suggest the police/CPS look at a case, and it seems they have done so. It's up to them now. Personally I hope they get every single person who lied under oath in this entire affair since what- 1999?- in court and charged with perjury. Every last one. Even the integrity of the judicial system itself surely demands that, and the sufferings of the postmasters certainly does. And anyone convicted ought to get a sentence that fits the harm they caused- given that in some cases the result of the lies was putting someone in jail, then jail it should be.
@@alisonwilson9749 Yes they must MUST be jailed 10 years. for twisting and lying in court and body langwidge to match. they thought nothing of destroying whole family's with their silly ways. JAIL>>!!!
I think not… weeks before the first lockdown figure published the the legal system showed the highest number of arrests for serious crimes in decades and at the same time, the lowest number of prosecutions. Courts prosecute in direct relation to the current governments political agenda. It’s either that or the police are incompetent… given the facts it could be either or both
The judges are as much at fault as the post office. Clearly not one even considered questioning the evidence. The only people who did anything useful were Mr Bates and friends, and Channel 4. Judges are so corrupt in this country it’s a joke. Just before the first lockdown the police reported the highest number of arrests for serious crimes in decades, the courts reported the least number of prosecutions. This country is dead in the water
Thank you for this. ALL Post Office senior management must now be held to be criminally accountable - along with the politician chap who's clutching his 'K'' so determinedly.
These guys have no problem with lying to judges. They definitely have no problem lying to politicians trying to investigate this over the years. Just watch some of the parliamentary select committees.
Ed Davey who was consistently lied to by the Post Office, who like all Post Office Ministers in post during this scandal both Labour and Tory was not allowed to influence the day to day running of the post Office. Tory Ministers lied about Brexit, Covid, parties etc. Ed Davey was lied to.
Sounds like a stitch- up! As Lady C says, a new trial with retired judges needs to be called. People must take responsibility, regardless of who they are. Thank you for putting the legal jargon into normal understanding!
700 infalible judges just not noticing what they are paid for how did that happen on repeat.
The Judge is cleary critical of these witnesses, citing dishonesty and lies! BUT, what will happen to them? Sod all!
Not so fast! The DPP is looking into this and I'm sure you've heard that two "people" have already been interviewed under caution.
@@Blitterbug like Starmer and Jimm Saville?
@@Blitterbug thats nice but nothings going to happen to them
@@Blitterbug The DPP You mean the Position that Kier Starmer held between 2008 and 2013, something else he oversaw and nothing got done,haha, don't hold your breath
I suspect most the public would happy to see them found guilty of Treason and given the same sentence as William Wallis. In fact, I think a lot of people would want to attend and watch, to be certain it was the true criminals. Including B. Liar (maybe with "Dr David Kelly" and "illegal invasions for the US" whispered in his ear as he is set up with the horses). Some of us would happily buy front row tickets.
It’s a wonder that Bill Gates didn’t buy the Post Office for his son who said he wanted a ‘real cowboy outfit’ for Christmas.
Except that Bully Gates is a she. She and Melinda are members of the baphomet mimic brigade.
he already owns it when his daddy got him a 'real cowboy outfit' for his birthday
Judge Fraser was an absolute hero & an example to the law proffesion. Listening to all sides, recognising flawed evidence & calling it out. Unlike many in the Law proffesion before during & after this scandal.
He had respect for the law & truth, why is this so remarkable ?
Sad for the " proffesion"
Profession
was this before the exsposer by ITV or after ? i do understand there can be at least one decent judge there are accidents this can happen but the 700 odd before him did what again.
A pardon isn't overturning wrongful convictions nor negating false admissions made under extreme duress.
A pardon says you were convicted of a crime but we are freeing you. Not that you are not guilty.
@@patrickporter1864 Exactly, that is useless in restoring credibility and responsibility.. and reputation..
Quite horrifying. Little wonder that SPOMs pleaded guilty, despite having done nothing wrong, when they found themselves in the frame, with no escape.
I agree, but this is the gravest of crimes by falsely accusing innocent citizens. Lives have been lost and destroyed. True Justice needs to be served without prejudice to those who are proven to be complicit.
It's just a small glimpse of our Justice system.😱
They were scared to run a trial.
It's not uncommon amongst normal working folk.
We all know that conviction depends on how Hot Shot your lawyer is!🙄
Mr Loophole was the Stars go to man.
...is that Justice?
It's clearly not Justice for all.🥴
All animals are equal !!
but some animals are more equal than others?
Regardless of position. Being a politician. Head of the Post Office whoever? The usual leaving, retiring before any charges are brought about. Thus just walking away from it all with the big pensions etc has to stop! Doing this kind of thing in any situation is wrong. But apart from the Debt. Criminal Record. Evictions and years of mental health issues caused by this scandal. Innocent people were killing themselves. People involved in this must be held accountable with the full force of the law thrown at them like anyone else would be treated!!
it will not stop! it cannot stop.....why? that would mean that the whole system would have to stop. hence what we have here is just a dog & pony show for the "outraged from tumbridge wells" crowd.
sure, they will go after one or two....the majority will face nothing. its no coincidence in the usa there is another "big show" going on ( more than one in their case )
I agree…the behaviour you mention has been the case too many times and for to long.
do not forget the shop workers that got sacked by sub postmasters accused of theft
Yes. They haven't been given recognition. The inquiry examining Steve Bradshaw today showed how he interrogated a16 year old girl who was falsely convicted.
Accountability is crucial in the post office fiasco
Absolutely shameful of the post office management 😢 I've seen cover-ups like this in other large organisations in my working life
Me too.
I think the post office scandal is the tip of the iceberg of public office mismanagement.I think an inquiry into planning and housing would be interesting.
see also, freeports. Private Eye is your friend.
Seems to me the whole system is corrupt beyond salvation. Is it worth anyone’s time and effort ,bothering to vote for ANY politician in Britain. They all fall foul to cover up. The power corrupts them, I think I will not be voting again. My apologies to all in the past who fought for the rights of us all to vote. Our leaders are spineless.
and so called healthcare, the owners of the hospitals and their overcharges...
That judges was seriously p1ssed with the people associated with the Post Office, nice to see a judge publicly calling out blatant bad behaviour (especially when it's on behalf of big companies that think they can do what they want, without penalty).
I love the way the legal system blames everyone else apart from themselves. They knew what was going on but get paid anyway don’t they.
Fraud, perjury and obstruction of the law are just for starters. When it was suspected it was postmasters at fault, it was prison. Then when it’s suspected of the bosses, it’s let’s not rush to judgment. Always the same.
The mendacity of those witnesses was breathtaking. I sincerely hope that there will be consequences. On a side note, one wonders whether Ms. Venall’s second job as a Church of England vicar is tenable. Her diocese is backing her but the average person in the pew might feel differently.
I'd not like to be the treasurer in any parish she was priest.
but in a sense all priests are liars aren't they?
Many vicars have done far worse than merely lie.
Vennells obviously does not practice what she preaches in church : Thou shalt not bear FALSE WITNESS (lies)
Brilliant summary. Been following the matter since Private Eye first started reporting on it ages ago. Astonished that so many people seem to have been ignorant of it till itv’s show.
I love how this has the "I loved shed 7 before they were famous" energy.
Van den bogerd she lied through her teeth under oath hopefully prison time should follow
I wonder if the victims had used the same kind of defence tactics whether they would have been found in contempt?
They would have been seen as petulant and disrespectful, so yes
It turns out that Horizon was not the best system assessed by the PO in fact in most areas it was the worst, it was chosen because it was the cheapest. Probably against the advice of their own technical people it was used because it was cheaper. Long term it looks like the cheapest option will cost a fortune in compensation. I have seen this in my former industry, a “ cheaper solution “ costs a small fortune, delays implementation for years and never quite works and costs a fortune in technical support.
I had a read of documents about how ICL Pathway (the company created to bid for the contract - later absorbed into Fujitsu) ended up with the contract. There were initially 5 contenders - later reduced to 3 - which included ICL Pathway and IBM. It seems that on cost alone the bids from IBM and ICL Pathway were pretty much equal but ICL Pathway was willing to accept a higher degree of risk - particularly fraud risk - which appears to have been the deciding factor in them winning the PFI deal.
@@jeremybarker7577 That worked out well, then.....
I love the way judges talk. And you're diving into and explaining it increases understanding of legal proceedings.
Yeah! They never say someone is lying, but they colour in all the negative space so we can see that's the rational conclusion.
If you look at the sheer quantity of people accused as fiddling the books, the PO Management Team should have seen it as a red flag that something wasn't right in the new system. The "failure" at the top is either incompetence or a wilful cover-up.... in this case, both.
Any decent project team would have monitored user feedback and see if the reported “issues/faults” could be replicated. There must be test logs, surely?
Not only that, but the fact that with the Postmasters using the old accountants book method of counting all products sold and counting the cash taking in at the end of the day always resulted in the days takings being recorded and approved daily. The post office should have looked at how these postmasters were able to accurately record the days dealings to the PO’s satisfaction should also have seen this as a red flag
Well done, now finish up your cereal, you have a lot of catching up to do
10:50 Staggering!! As someone said Either you're incompetent or you're lying- which is it?
- and if it's the former you should hand your salary back
How were the Prosecution allowed to submit evidence of the Interviews when they were conducted by refusing the defendants access to Legal representation?
That creep yesterday at the inquiry (it's available online) said he worked to PACE rules. So why was everything not taped, just for starters?
Fascinating. Thank you. Keep doing this, please. Kindest regards, David.
Someone (possibly more than one) needs to be charged with perjury.
If fraud had actually occurred, the SPM would have the money somewhere or have spent it. How come the PO never produced any evidence of this. Where did the "stolen" money go? Thin air?
The money 'recovered' was included in PO profit figures. Since the PO is a wholly government owned entity, the Treasury has it.
@@PortilloMomentI think he means . Where did all these postmasters hide the supposed missing money. It never existed. Usually in fraud trials they can show extra money in the perpetrators accounts, or in their lifestyle extra holidays etc.
If I had been a SPM, I would have got Horizon to keep doubling up so that it showed I was down a million quid - even the numpty, evil management would have difficulty persuading a court that a million quid was missing from a business handling just a few thousand every day.
Anyway, let’s hoe that if criminal offences have been committed, these people find themselves Bedford the courts.
Also, let us not forget the role of Fujitsu in all this who should have come clean in the hearing rather than being bought down to ground level by a whistle blower - they are equally culpable!!!!
Many thanks for giving us understandable and accurate reporting on all this. We usually called the Post Office help facility the Hell Line which says it all really.
I never believed it from the first brief MSM report on the TV news, when the public didn't know the extent. Also did not know that it would be allowed to continue to affect so many more. That was many years ago. Perhaps going on for two decades. It simply didn't stand to reason. So many even then.
I bet the nasty piece of work who spat in the man's face won't think to go and do the same to any of the real culprits. She would know she would be arrested for their sake.
Do you think that a former head of the Criminal Cases Review Commission was on TV yesterday, looking very angry indeed. He stated that new legislation should only be enacted when all other avenues have been exhausted and that hasn't happened. He went on to explain that the CRCC and the highest court could have concluded the matter within only a few months.
I suspect the misgovernment illegally enacted new legislation (it was illegal as it breached law by previous legislation and traditional law from previous legislations), in order to have control over the amount of compensation paid? Also to have control of any Public Inquiry and the outcome?
Of course, I am surmising it could have been referred to the CRCC a long time ago as well as very recently, and for whatever reason wasn't. Of if wasn't, I wonder why not? Who decided it shouldn't be?
Apart from this, we all know by now that they the relatives of those in uppermost control (bankers, their royal relatives and politician family members etc) tell their lesser relatives now quite long placed in all MSM (and now much social media) what to allow and not allow their news agencies to be bring to the attention of the public. They only ever allow scandals where their own are culprits are the criminals to be exposed when they have a strong enough reason. Such as to distract from other heinous behaviour they are currently up to.
It was on ceefax yesterday that the misgovernment mobsters have "postponed" the Inquiry into the witches brew itself until after the next general election. Of course we know there will be a change of guard again, and who knows if it will then ever be investigated to any extent? Or if it is, then by whom?
Also in the news. Sunak and his mobsters are giving Gibraltar to Spain. This will mean that people from Africa will be able to sail through the Strait of Gibraltar, unhindered, because Spain certainly won't stop them on our behalf. Apart from even more illegal migrants, there will be a sharp increase in people trafficking to and fro. Including and perhaps especially of children.
I am glad that you and other victims have received some sort of resolution at last, if you are all happy with it. Even if it isn't what it should and could have been through the CCRC. If all victims are content to settle for what has been done in such a hurry after such a very long length of time, then it is for all of you to judge whether you are willing to accept what had been done. I truly hope that you all go on to have far better lives in the future.
I do wonder about the loved ones of those who tragically ended their own lives, as well as those who have passed away before this. Not only their legal relatives but anyone they were co-habitating with lung term, especially if they had children or long term but not adopted Stephen children. I suspect they won't have a fair portion awarded as part of the estate of the deceased.
Where distraction from other heinous behaviour is concerned, there is too much even recently for me to list. Some of it wouldn't be allowed mention on yt anyway.
The fact that MSM are still giving so much time and attention to the matter, now seemingly 'settled', is proof it is being misused to distract the public, Imo. MSM could and should have moved on to cover the "postponement" of the Inquiry into the various toxic darts, Gibraltar and more. They could always have returned to reporting on the Royal Mail/post office scandal over time. I expect MSM will drop coverage like a ton of bricks when there isn't anything immediate that they don't want the public to notice.
Remember that they are all at least in the funny handshake club, and are sworn to protect each other right or wrong (even when they do very occasionally sacrifice those of lower degrees).
We must always try and discover the track records and usual decisions of those involved, to see if they are likely to be genuinely for truth and justice or if it is more subterfuge.
Best wishes for you and yours.
Why is Fujita not being taken to court under the Sale of Goods Act? The accounting package was clearly not fit for purpose.
probably there is a clause in the contract they signed
I read that Fujitsu warned the then Royal Mail that more than one terminal together would not work properly. If true, those responsible will use Fujitsu as a scapegoat anyway if they can.
I believe that is for domestic consumers, not businesses.
@@Woodman-Spare-that-tree"The Sale of Goods Act 1979 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which regulated English contract law and UK commercial law in respect of goods that are sold and bought."
Hth
@@Woodman-Spare-that-tree Much of it applies to businesses but for a multi-million pound contract like ICL (as it then was) had to supply Horizon everything is written down - which is why the entire contract document is over 900 pages long.
All those involved from the Post Office should be held to account by the judiciary, & if found guilty sent to prison! They should also be sued personally for the amount of money they fraudulently claimed off the Subpostmasters! Fujitsu should also be held liable for their part in this disgusting saga! Then there is the question of who is responsible for the deaths of the four who committed suicide! Wrongful convictions for as much as £100K! drove one of them to not being able to cope with the situation when he knew he was innocent! Paula Vennell tried to mask over her guilt by being in the priesthood and pleading to be absolved! The only thing that became apparent was she has no conscience what so ever! Willfully destroying the lives of these honest hard working Subpostmasters during the week then being all righteous and good on the weekend to her parishioners!
Perhaps a unfrocking?
@@amandamcauleyurge no thanks , maybe a job in a brothel ? She appears to be a proper madam
What do you think of the admission at the inquiry by Bradshaw, the former Post Office Investigator, that his witness statement was written by the PO's lawyers without his involvement and he just signed it. Is that not problematic legally? Must a witness statement by an individual be written by the individual themselves, and if not, should it be made clear in the statement who wrote it and/or whose words and analysis they are?
If one makes a victim statement at the cop shop, it's drafted (handwritten) by the cop (based on what you tell them happened). This reputedly is because, in order to secure a conviction, certain conditions need to be net, and there are standard phrases which can be used to meet such conditions.
The post office was effectively the police in this matter.
Hth
There must be a great many present and former post office staff who are now regretting how their support for this organisation is now being disclosed.
When a judge refers witnesses to the CPS for purgery and nothing happens then I know things are being swept under the carpet.
it can take time, we'll just have to wait and hope.
Clear, concise, and without a not so clandestine advert!
I'm hoping I might get sponsorship from a biscuit company.
😆@@coachhousechambers2047
These dubious witnesses thought they were protecting the Post Office. They were actually defending and risking their reputation for Fujitsu.
I’m expecting the usual ‘we’ve made changes to our systems to make sure this ever happens again’ response from them and ‘can we have a bonus for doing so’. There should no hiding place for them.
While it is understandable to some degree that judges are overly careful with their words for the reasons you give, this becomes part of the problem when, as has been happening these last few years, egregious liars spout egregious lies and are neither called out nor chastised nor - what actually should happen - accused of and tried for 1. contempt of court and 2. perjury. To lie at court has basically become accepted, which has long since undermined justice. A witness who is more or less a civil servant caught demonstrably lying in a case such as this in a way such as this, should get an immediate fine and ultimately serve prison time.
That's the role of the DPP. Judge stays squeaky clean so that it doesn't become a defense to say the judge was biased. They stay stronger this way. They refer stuff to the DPP, who decides what should be a charge. In this case I'd be checking who at the post office has lunch with whom from the DPP though
their actions were criminal and with intent. They did not hold back with the post masters made to pay, took to court, jailed. And some suicide they have a case to answer
I knew a lady who worked at a post office when they had their first system fitted
It didn't work out of the box, as she had a good computing background she was saying that they had trouble getting it to work without shutting down or freezing. then her bosses used to call her to get the system to work as the help line was unobtainable when needed.
Many years ago I was envolved in a dispute with a department of government and was amazed by their liberal attitude to accuracy and truth. They could have had a good career in writing. What also got my attention was how they brought their inventions to court with every expectation of being believed. This case certainly brings back memories.
A vile scandal that has probably stained 2 generations of families shortened lives. I believe some very nasty people held the reins of the friendly post office.
Thank you for your videos, they are always so informative and entertaining ❤
This is a very good explanation of what happened.
All of these accusations of obduracy, dishonesty, laziness and incompetence are absolutely typical of Britain's public sector at large.
Except all this corruption and incompetence started after the post office got privatised. Its always the same, service suffers, costs go up.
EDIT: Apologies, I was wrong, Horizon started a lot earlier than I thought. But the fact remains the situation didn't improve with privatisation, and it's not like private corporations have never been guilty of incompetence, or worse, fraud.
@@alliedatheistalliance6776 It's astonishing that you think a change in the names on the owners' docs would have such a huge impact. They acted as they did and were favored in courts precisely because they're a quasi-governmental agency - exactly what you'd expect from public sector scumbags.
@@alliedatheistalliance6776 Actually the Post Office is still public. It was the Royal Mail that was privatised. But Fujitsu is certainly private. On another thread someone proposed privatising the PO. To which a wit responded, if the solution is to privatise the PO by the same logic it must be to nationalise Fujitsu! This isn't a public private issue. It's a big bureaucracy issue.
And Fujitsu are typical of our private sector.
@@gileshumphry I take it you received a British education,which would explain your false comparison: the public sector is bound by the logic of its position; the private sector is the infinite possibility of everything else and thus not comparable.
At least Fujitsu doesn't have prosecuting authority, and would receive the inferior treatment reserved for non-public persons - such as the 900+ abused by courts at the Post Office's behest.
Time for those who ran the post office investigations to face criminal trial and for the Post Office to be dismantled.
I don't agree with it being dismantled (although it might have to be sold off to pay for all those wrong prosecutions). All this country and others needs is people who abide by honesty, integrity and be unafraid to speak out and ensure investigations are carried out thoroughly and without bias.
Truth and integrity are in short supply within most of the Global populations. Especially when it involves leaders, people with fortunes, Government Departments and Private Industrial Complexes. These are the ones who will say/do anything to gain advantages and cover their arse (backside for those with poor English)!!!
New subscriber via Daniel.
I see it as a question of weeding out the guilty and using the full force of the law against them . But who is prepared to take that risk ?
What do you think of the judiciarie's role in this evil saga?
It seems to me that they have simply acted as the Post Office's rubber stamp.
The fact that they call themselves Justices is laughable.
How were they supposed to know witnesses were lying about a computer system?- the law as it is means a computer system has to be assumed to be working properly unless a defendant can prove otherwise- how are defendants supposed to do that? The law needs changing, yes, but judges have to work within the laws as they are. We also have laws about perjury that are supposed to prevent lying in court, so when people do lie, people ought to be prosecuted for perjury, otherwise it will not put anyone else off lying.
@@alisonwilson9749
They got evidence from both sides but automatically assumed the accused was lying because they 'know' that the government never lies.
As long as people keep voting nothing will change… to quote Einstein “we can’t solve todays problems with the mentality that created them”.
Remember the SPMs were prosecuted by the PO, not by the CPS - and the PO has clearly abused its prosecutorial powers and failed to disclose evidence during those trials. One outcome from this must be that the PO has its investigatorial and prosecutorial powers stripped, and they should be held to account for perverting the course of justice.
i think the justice system provided the post office with a very good service with out the judges in on this it could of never happened for so long so many times .the loyalty to the post office we only admire their efforts to hide and protect the very rich and powerfull to get this burried for so long .this took a lot of comming to gether and team work it very impressive .
The thing that I have to ask is, what is the Law Society doing about this whole fiasco. There are lawyers out there that should be removed from the profession, the profession should be demanding that they are prosecuted.
Bravo! The public is indebted to you.
So much more infortmative than so-called investigative journalism on television.
Looking on from the other side of the World, this whole Post Office saga thing is simply jaw dropping
Thanks Alan. Love your videos. You make things easier for me to understand.
Strong strong words from the Judge. Hurrah! To me the P.O. is using a 'Boris' style of presentation. Seen more and more these days. Thank you for this vid. 😊
It was starmer who covered up.for the post office as DPP - not to mention savile and the Rotherham rings! Yet Boris ate birthday cake that he never ate so he had to go! We're not stupid...
In short, extremely practiced liars, coached in what to answer to within an inch of their lives, and having their financial future threatened in order to ensure absolute obedience. Especially, their pensions, and especially, any ‘frilly’ benefits they might have or hope to get, that are not utterly guaranteed by law or their contract. To wit, early retirement is often held almost entirely in the discretion of a senior manager or director. These people were dishonest, but I can smell a huge amount of bullying and fear lacing this whole organisation at HQ both Post Office and Fujitsu. What an ugly spectacle. Unedifying for the individuals concerned, discrediting, and yet…if they toed the line, they will have been paid and pensioned, you wait and we’ll find out. ‘Company men and women’ are always rewarded. They are not rewarded to have a conscience.
Did any judge who presided over trials of subpostmasters and mistresses that found them guilty of theft have the gumption to look at the defendant, think he/she does not look like a thief, and take responsibility for trying to get to the bottom of what the hell was happening at the Post Office and why and how? ..... The judges who sent innocent men and women to prison are guilty in this scandal too. COMMON SENSE should have led some of them to question the fairness of what was happening in their courts ... did any of these self-righteous, overpaid public servants act with any sense of personal responsibility to get to the bottom of this scandal years ago?
I’ve said it before and I will no doubt say it again, why do legal proceedings have to wait for the interminable inquiry to finish? People lied under oath, the evidence is already there, they should be done for perjury.
With the way the establishment has dealt with the sub post office business I can only think that there was a conspiracy to get rid of small shops in favour for the supermarkets, why else has this travesty occurred ?
I read somewhere that the only subpostoffices experiencing the "fraud" were those they were extra keen to close. Lol perhaps Professor Pantsdown can construct a spreadsheet assessing probability
You could be on to something there, it would explain a lot.
Had to stop halfway so I could watch this posting on my tablet...phew!!! Excellent video...must be shared👉💎👈👉🇬🇧👈⁉️
I believe these slippery individuals have escaped prosecution for perjury if for no other reason than the flowery language used by the judge. We know what he said and we probably know what he meant but he didn’t take it far enough. Then we have Civil Service inertia. If this organisation was glue it would be strongest in the world as nothing could get it to shift.
Someone needs to go jail!
Justice must be served!
One?
Hoping the little people would run out of money for a re trial?
Watching the enquiry with Steve Bradshaw the ex TV licence goon promoted to hound and scapegoat the PO postmasters suggests that he has better get used to slopping out.
I cannot parse that stream of letters.
@@TesterAnimal1"Post Office investigator [Steve Bradshaw] 'who behaved like a Mafia gangster' was accused of 'disgusting behaviour' and having an 'unbearable attitude' as he interviewed sub-postmasters over claims of theft, Horizon scandal inquiry hears"
Is OP saying that prior to that role he was a TV Licence inspector 🤷
Utter contempt of court. The "witnesses" who exhibited this charactoristic need to answer for it.
So love your videos and those of the Black Belt Barrister. Today I have learned new ways of calling someone a lying sod.
Judges use code about our submissions too.
"Ambitious" means you're trying to make a silks purse out of a sow's ear
"Intriguing" means the judge had no idea what you were on about
"Novel" means they think you should be sectioned.
@@coachhousechambers2047 I am greatly enjoying Julian Blake and Sir Wyn Williams. Sir Wyn seems such a jolly character; then he intervenes, looking slightly bewildered and, with that broad Welsh accent, sticks the knife in before the witness knows he has one.
@@coachhousechambers2047 😆
Does anyone truly feel real justice will be done. It seems to me that these Post Office executives, lawyers and certain government bureaucrats are above the law.
`Inaccurate factual evidence’ is that polite speak for lies? Aren’t lies on the stand perjury? Don’t you face charges and jail time for perjury under oath? Shouldn’t these people now be in jail?
How likely is it that there will actually be perjury prosecutions? Is there any chance that the management who encouraged perjury, explicitly or implicitly, will face legal consequences? One lying witness is one thing, but a whole bunch of them, seemingly all of them, means a culture of lying.
I have come to the conclusion in this debacle with the Post Office that the ONLY TRUSTWORTHY HONEST PEOPLE are the POSTMASTERS !!
Wow. The more I learn about this subject the more I am sickened. I'm struggling to understand why the Post Office were pursuing Sub Postmasters for money they knew very well hadn't been stolen. What benefit did they get from destroying so many people's lives? I mean playing devil's advocate I can see a manager following this route once but seeing the effect it had on the defendant refusing to carry on, again and again. What's your gut feeling, do you think there will be charges brought against individuals in the Post Office?
We, The People need to keep up the pressure.
@@amandamcauley I agree Amanda. In my opinion aside from perjury there are criminal charges to answer. I see the establishment closing ranks though. The rot goes very deep.
They were getting paid bonuses based on successful prosecutions
@@parshakamarsh Really? Wow.
I do not believe for one second that the senior managers and board will face any charges…they might throw a few investigators to the wolves (deservedly), but the people who really caused this will get away with it. Look at every other ‘independent’ enquiry ever and nothing happens. The establishment ALWAYS looks after its own. Take it as read that crusty old established peers and their like will already consider that Vennels losing her CBE is punishment enough.
What price a similar TV licence scandal will be next!
Thankyou for your great work with your channel.....'The Judge will pass on some of the witness evidence to the DPP' made my day !!! I hope this is just the start of more and more real Justice!!!
I hope the Post Office now realizes that we know what they did. There is no escaping it anymore. They failed in their attempts to cover up and now they will be held accountable. As to the "witnesses", I find their actions deplorable when they knew the impact that this had on so many people. Some committed suicide and they undoubtedly contributed to that by lying and perjuring themselves.
I don't know if this point has been raised anywhere but a number of Post Office branches are contained within stores such as W.H. Smith. That was the case here in Royal Wootton Bassett until recently. I assume they were on the Horizon system too and would have encountered the same problems. Did the Post Office prosecute or even investigate any of them or did they just go after the little man?
Just a crying shame these judges dont say it exactly as it is instead of the soft approach words. Maybe if they had things wouldnt have gone as far as it did
It must be the case that the legal establishment is guilty of condemning some 900 people who are innocent!
For any of the victims who might be reading (I did write this as a reply to one such, but his comment has gone for some reason).
I never believed it from the first brief MSM report on the TV news, when the public didn't know the extent. Also did not know that it would be allowed to continue to affect so many more. That was many years ago. Perhaps going on for two decades. It simply didn't stand to reason. So many even then.
I bet the nasty piece of work who spat in the man's face won't think to go and do the same to any of the real culprits. She would know she would be arrested for their sake.
Do you think that a former head of the Criminal Cases Review Commission was on TV yesterday, looking very angry indeed. He stated that new legislation should only be enacted when all other avenues have been exhausted and that hasn't happened. He went on to explain that the CRCC and the highest court could have concluded the matter within only a few months.
I suspect the misgovernment illegally enacted new legislation (it was illegal as it breached law by previous legislation and traditional law from previous legislations), in order to have control over the amount of compensation paid? Also to have control of any Public Inquiry and the outcome?
Of course, I am surmising it could have been referred to the CRCC a long time ago as well as very recently, and for whatever reason wasn't. Of if wasn't, I wonder why not? Who decided it shouldn't be?
Apart from this, we all know by now that they the relatives of those in uppermost control (bankers, their royal relatives and politician family members etc) tell their lesser relatives now quite long placed in all MSM (and now much social media) what to allow and not allow their news agencies to be bring to the attention of the public. They only ever allow scandals where their own are culprits are the criminals to be exposed when they have a strong enough reason. Such as to distract from other heinous behaviour they are currently up to.
It was on ceefax yesterday that the misgovernment mobsters have "postponed" the Inquiry into the witches brew itself until after the next general election. Of course we know there will be a change of guard again, and who knows if it will then ever be investigated to any extent? Or if it is, then by whom?
Also in the news. Sunak and his mobsters are giving Gibraltar to Spain. This will mean that people from Africa will be able to sail through the Strait of Gibraltar, unhindered, because Spain certainly won't stop them on our behalf. Apart from even more illegal migrants, there will be a sharp increase in people trafficking to and fro. Including and perhaps especially of children.
I am glad that you and other victims have received some sort of resolution at last, if you are all happy with it. Even if it isn't what it should and could have been through the CCRC. If all victims are content to settle for what has been done in such a hurry after such a very long length of time, then it is for all of you to judge whether you are willing to accept what had been done. I truly hope that you all go on to have far better lives in the future.
I do wonder about the loved ones of those who tragically ended their own lives, as well as those who have passed away before this. Not only their legal relatives but anyone they were co-habitating with lung term, especially if they had children or long term but not adopted Stephen children. I suspect they won't have a fair portion awarded as part of the estate of the deceased.
Where distraction from other heinous behaviour is concerned, there is too much even recently for me to list. Some of it wouldn't be allowed mention on yt anyway.
The fact that MSM are still giving so much time and attention to the matter, now seemingly 'settled', is proof it is being misused to distract the public, Imo. MSM could and should have moved on to cover the "postponement" of the Inquiry into the various toxic darts, Gibraltar and more. They could always have returned to reporting on the Royal Mail/post office scandal over time. I expect MSM will drop coverage like a ton of bricks when there isn't anything immediate that they don't want the public to notice.
Remember that they are all at least in the funny handshake club, and are sworn to protect each other right or wrong (even when they do very occasionally sacrifice those of lower degrees).
We must always try and discover the track records and usual decisions of those involved, to see if they are likely to be genuinely for truth and justice or if it is more subterfuge.
Best wishes for you and yours.
Beyond interesting Maître Robertshaw ! I very much respect and enjoy the British sense of legal discretion in such matters. Plain speaking whilst very much to the point and granting the perjuror a moducum of self-respect in the process. Truly elegant use of language.
Investigators that didnt investigate, ppmanagers that didnt manage, supervisors that werent, and more
Really appreciate your updates here, brilliant . Thank you 🙏 😊
All of these criticisms could be said of the corporate CP's in the Grenfell Tower Inquiry - same ol same ol. Dear Barrister, What is the UK law system going to do about individuals shirking responsibility by simply changing jobs in the business/ corporate sector?? Is there ANYONE in those professions who has taken a new senior post and NOT found themselves saying ' well, erm, that happened before I got here..'? Ordinary and empathic people can see this is a MAJOR problem and something needs to be done about it. I think seeing white collars go to jail is the ONLY short term solution which may well avoid riots.
The verbatim quotes are helpful to hear, albeit depressing. We should recall that substantial financial incentives were offered to PO management for each court case that resulted in the postmaster being found guilty…
Don't you just love it when the presenter has the same accent as you. Such easy listening.
This is great! Having closely followed the testimony of the witnesses to The Inquiry the last couple of weeks, this summary from the Judge is very satisfying.
Thanks again Alan. Those poor people, so sad.
6:00 Van DbG getting a taste of her own medicine in this section - you've signed something to say you're responsible and then you don't agree with it later on? Sound familiar?
If I had been the judge my language would have been a tad stronger regarding these truth bending W⚓s.
I have made the only choice of downing Micardis Plus and beta blockers before watching you Post Office stories. Now that I am safe, please keep the coming. I am "vaguely interested" in your vaguely useful coverage. All brilliant Mr Robertshaw. #vaguelyinteresting
Some of the judges seem to have been savy....but far too many disgraced the judiciary and brought the entire legal justice system into disrepute.
My other point is? What is the point of a official enquiry when witnesses can just lie and avoid and delay.