HMS Illustrious - Guide 048 (Human Voice)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ธ.ค. 2019
- The Illustrious class of the British Royal Navy is today's subject.
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
Hi Drach I know that you tend to focus on 19/20th century naval warfare but I have a question for the High Middle Ages so please indulge me. What do you think would have been the natural development of naval shipbuilding/warfare if cannons were not introduced as a warship's main armaments.
As before this especially in the Mediterranean (given its rich history of Greeks and then Romans having massive battles of possibly hundreds of ships ramming each other). I believe that the idea of naval warfare was to merely bring a land battle to sea. As such ships were merely used to transport either a boarding party onto a ship or a contingent of bowmen/crossbowmen close enough to get a few shots off.
I'm asking this as I am wondering how the development of more ocean-going vessels would have occurred within the constraints of the old style of naval warfare. This is as I can't really imagine a galleon going in sails blazing against a dromond or any sort of large galley in the hope of a ram and board action. Thanks for considering this for next weeks Drydock and please keep the great content rolling.
Drachinifel, what if the airborne aircraft carriers USS Akron and Macon survived the weather conditions that downed them? What would the impact on naval aviation be?
Do you know how much of a problem overpenetrations were in real life? At the Battle of Samar, Japanese Battleships fired on destroyers and escord carriers and overpenned them. I guess this was a combination of multiple factors: the japanese thinking they were fireing at larger targets and having the diving shell system, which in itself makes a longer fuse delay nessassary. Now my question is how much of a problem were overpens in an "equal" combat situation, so a battleship vs battleship or cruiser vs cruiser engagement? Would a hit in the thinner areas of a ship (for example superstructure and bows - especially cruiser bows) always result in an overpen? How did different nations handle the problem? The fact that in the Battle of the Denmark Straight Prince of Wales was hit below the armor belt by a diving shell (that would have exploded before hitting the ship if it had not been a dud) seems to indicate that the Kriegsmarine had a shorter fuse delay, how did other navys handle this? And is it known how many hits were actual overpens?
Most influential warship of WW2? In a sense of which warship influenced the war the most/had the greatest impact.
In my opinion that has to be USS Yorktown because of what her air groups achieved at Midway.
However HMS Illustrious and the Shokaku class are hot contesters too.
5th try
Were Dreadnoughts white elephants from the start?
UK politics post WWII: we don’t need large carriers.
UK politics Now: those Carriers are EXTRA THICCC.
The Falkland war showed the drawbacks of small carries.
@@razorburn645 they did indeed and the importance of proper AA Warfare DDs
@@Duke_of_Petchington It was during that ugly transition to modern designs that haven't had the acid test of modern combat. Plus they were too focused on fighting the soviets so designing a defense against your own weapons was overlooked.
@@razorburn645 China and other possible adversaries have learnt to keep an good distance in AAW and ASurfW which is why alot of their ordanace for both offence and defence has great range.
However l've alot seen alot navies around the world don't understand the importance of CIWS AA/AM missiles and instead selecting long and medium range weapons but leaving out Short to Close and relying too heavily on CIWS Gun and PDCs/Deck guns.
The RN has Sea Viper system (Aster 15 AA/AM Missile) which is great long range Defence weapon, but Sea Ceptor (CAMM) closes the the Close-to-short range gap.
Lusty has such lovely soft landings.
Azur lane chad
I'd like some soft landing, please.
Ah, I see you're a shikikan of culture as well.
I'll look after Unicorn-chan for a while for you, oh, and Formidable, would you like a piece of cake?
Ah fellow Shikikan of culture has gathered here as well
I want my waifus to sandwich me
Tell that to Formidable.
You know you have a very good aircraft carrier when it starts making Jojo references more than half a century later.
"ZA WARUDO!!"
@@jimmyseaver3647 WRYYYYY
pffft...lumbering
OH SHIT!
How exactly?
@@admiralskymarine1378 Azur Lane, HMS Formidable. One of the Illustrious class carriers. One of her abilities is to stop all ships in the battlefield out of sheer awe or anger
Drach, speaking of carriers, Congratulations on the formal commissioning of the HMS Prince of Wales on Dec. 10th. It was a fitting tribute to the Battleship HMS Prince of Wales, to hold the new Prince of Wales commissioning on the 78th anniversary of the battleships sinking!
I was on holiday on the P & O Arcadia some years back and sat next to a gent at breakfast. We talked about ships and he revealed that as a 17 y o he was assigned to the new Illustrious in the Med. He said that he was in the Boys Mess and there were '247 of us with ages from 14 to 17'. When the bombs started falling he was terrified, but grew up very quickly. It's hard to imagine that any navy could have children on board during times of war, but I suppose it was just a throw back to Nelson and beyond.
The carrier that provided the first indication of battleships being obsolete
Being cool and awesome never goes obsolete. They do sometimes become financially disadvantageous though :(
The royal navy has great names for their ships.
Thank you. My dad was on Victorious - and now I have something in my eye.
I just want to mention. At 3:33, an image appears of two carriers. They are the HMS Illustrious and HMS Unicorn, an aircraft maintenance carrier, anchored in Ceylon. The Unicorn is the ship facing the camera with visible smoke from her stack and has the lower flight deck. The Illustrious is the one facing away, with visible planes on her higher flight deck. Just wanted to mention this.
My grandfather served on Formiddables second tour, (mostly in the Pacific) its great to hear her mentioned as there is not an awful lot of information about these operations.
"What typhoon?" Is the one that always gets me.
Would you consider doing an episode on British Strike Aircraft in the 1940s? Specifically the usage, doctrine, and composition of shipboard strike planes in that era.
This ship is very.. very good looking.. I'm talking about azure lane. The game.
Dude you play too (*＾ω＾)人(＾ω＾
Both looking good
She is also very heav-
Fantastic video sir.....until you mentioned it some weeks ago I had no idea that the British loaned out a carrier to work with the US Navy till the Enterprise was put back together.
That fact is rarely brought up in American books.
And on a side note, the Illustrious class are possibly some of the best looking carriers ever made.
For some reason American history texts to find it embarrassing to either rely on anyone else or be second best to anyone and tend to neglect to mention any such events so they don't upset any of their countrymen who were indoctrinated growing up to believe that 'merica is the best thing every, they can do no wrong and it's okay to cheat and screw over other countries who might be doing better than them at something, so that America comes out on top, because that's it's rightful place in the world anyway.
@@sergarlantyrell7847 well that was absolutely unnecessary and absolutely stupid.
@@admiraltiberius1989 it's just an annoying theme that persisted when you talk to many Americans about their history regarding other nations.
@@sergarlantyrell7847 pretty much every country is guilty of that to some degree or another. Except for the Poles, they are strangely upfront about their history.
Admiral Tiberius. I love Poland. Beautiful country and brave honest people. They got royally shafted in WWII. Anyway, I’m British and love America. They may chest beat too much but I don’t care. They are on our side.
The only Illustrious class carrier who's flight deck was penetrated by a bomb was Illustrious herself. Interestingly, she was the only ship of her class who's flight deck armor was made in Czechoslovakia. All the others deck armor was made in Great Britain.
I keep misreading name as HMS Hilarious
Rainbow dazzler camouflage would make everyone's eyes hurt just looking at it.
"political decision"
Sir Humphrey and Hacker at it again, eh?
as a matter of fact it was because the UK was nearly bankrupt. since the end of the war, in military terms, the UK was the only serious European military power that countered the USSR. France wasn't in NATO and Italy had communist influenced governments so the RN countered the Black Sea Fleet on it's own in the Med. the RAF provided air support for most of it's Northern European neighbours including around 300 strategic V bombers. not to mention the commitments in West Germany. it's the real reason the UK never fought in Vietnam whereas Australia and New Zealand did. plus people forget about the Malayan Emergency - google it. that was another huge drain. and of course, don't forget Korea.
@@raverdeath100 r/whoosh
raverdeath100 ,"it's the real reason the UK never fought in Vietnam ...".
Uh, nope. The UK *did* fight in Vietnam ( for a short time, granted. before choosing to fight in Malaysia )
m.th-cam.com/video/1w-cv2CJbfI/w-d-xo.html
@@raverdeath100 Could have re privatized the NHS and fuck West Germany.
@@raverdeath100; you say the RN was "on its one in the Med" after WWII. Apparently you never heard of the US Sixth Fleet. Check it out on Wikipedia, you might learn something.
This is one of my favorite air craft carriers,it looks intresting
I'd like to see a video of the Malta campaign; classic siege of an island fortress!
Which siege of Malta? There's been so many, you gotta be more specific!
@@Shenaldrac , since I was commenting on the Illustrious video, I figured it'd be obvious that I meant the WWII one, though you're right - there have been a lot of them!
One of the best experiences of when i went to Malta was the museum all about the history of the island and of the illustrious reliving the island and it got bombed by the Luftwaffe
Thank you for mentioning the RN aircraft carrier raids against KMS Tirpitz while she was ( basically trapped ) in Kaafjord, Norway during 1944. Only one of which really worked out as planned ( Operation Tungsten ).
Seeing all those beautiful corsairs made me think of the 4,000 corsairs the RN dumped into the ocean after the war.
Tears and grief ensuing.
Just over 2,000 for the RN, I don't know where he got 4,000 and only the survivors where dumped.
Many of them were dumped off the coast of New South Wales.
They built Corsairs until 1953. The Yanks used them extensively in Korea as did the French in Indochina. Could carry quite the ordnance load. The later ones had uprated 2,760hp engines and 20mm cannon.
They WHAT?¿!
I guess I'm wrong, but I thought there were six in the class, Illustrious, Victorious, Formidable, Implacable, Indomitable & Indefatigable. Just what I memorized back when I was a teenager in the late 70's and was building an Airfix fleet in 1:600 scale.
Implacable and Indefatigable were a two-ship follow-on class to an improved design :)
@@Drachinifel Indisputable.
@@Drachinifel Formidable was easily within range to fire upon the Italian cruisers at Matapan, before turning away. Did she fire her guns with the battleships???
@@alan6832 some accounts say she did, others say she didn’t. At any rate, when the flag officer remembered she was there, she was quickly sent away.
Very good! I always enjoy your commentary.
The illustrious was my grandfather's ship from 1942 till the end of the war and my father still has a photo album from that time. So it was great to see a video showing some of the history of that ship. Also have you done anything on the Battle of the River plate?
My father served aboard HMS Illustrious. Those folks were from the greatest generation where men would give their lives to keep freedom for those left behind. This attitude carried outside the war, as men of that generation were honest, hard working and honorable.
There's a sorry lack of honor among men today and that is such a shame.
Jack ~'()'~
Canada
Scrapped in 1968 to phase out large carriers in the RN and here we are 50+ years later with 2 giant carriers with bugger all planes to put on them! we should never have got rid of the Harriers!.
While I agree with the fact we have bugger all plane's but the harrier was to slow to be competitive with land based and other carrier based aircraft
P.1154
@@dubsy1026 yeah just make thet
"...bugger all planes to put on them"
Wait, what...are you serious?
The USMC is going to operate F-35Bs on the QE for the first deployment.
Loaned to us? Never heard of that before. Guess you learn new things every day on this channel.
A touch of semantics here. Not loaned as in being operated *by* the US Navy, but as in being detached from British operations to operate *with* the US Navy, to cover their shortage of carriers.
@@solbergsindre Well, loaned complete with crew, commander and air wing. But in the sense that they operated within the American command structure, sure.
Only loaned in the same way US battleships and cruisers were "loaned" to the Home Fleet before Pearl Harbor. Allies commonly operate their ships within the command of another ally's fleet.
@@sarjim4381 Prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor the US was neutral albeit only just so it wasn't loaning the Royal Navy any battleships or cruisers. There was a destroyers for bases deal done in 1940 whereby the US transferred 50 destroyers to the Royal Navy in return for 99 year leases for bases in various British overseas possessions. In WW I after the Us entered the war in April 1917 the US Navy sent destroyers and some battleships which operated with the Royal Navy
@@standard_gauge Read the service history of Task Force 19 and the occupation of Iceland six months before Pearl Harbor. TF19 included two battleships (Arkansas, New York) and two Brooklyn class cruisers (Nashville, Brooklyn) as well as nine of our most modern destroyers. The destroyers for bases agreement was signed ten months before TF19 started operating. While the US wasn't technically "loaning" and ships to the RN, TF19 operated under the "suggestions" of the RN in Iceland.
Great work as always Drach. While I have some... Other reasons (2 specific ones) why I like Illustrious, I was always interested in Naval History, (I suppose those waifu games had something to do with it), and learning about their history was always a pastime of mine especially when you're narrating. Keep up the work.
There are some differing views into some of the logic on the armored deck as used in the Illustrious class and other British carriers, and both this and the other arguments are excellently written. I recommend watching Professor Alexander Clarke's videos on the subject if anyone is interested in that or in the design history of these British armored carriers.
Soft landing gang where you at?
In Februray 1941 she sailed to Virginia for permanent repairs at the safer Norfolk Virgina Navy Yard. One propeller shaft had to be cut away and her speed fell to 23 knots. She returned to service in May 1942.
Very well done video as always! Any chance of doing a video on the Takao-class heavy cruisers for the IJN?
This is my favorite British carrier class. It's a pity the USA could not use these in the carrier clashes in '42. The *Yorktown* class had glass jaws.
Different operational requirements. The British Carriers with their armoured flight decks and smaller hangers were certainly useful and could take damage that would sink US Carriers, but the smaller Air Groups were a serious disadvantage in the Pacific Theatre. Conversely the unarmoured US Carriers would have been in serious trouble operating in the Med, especially against the kind of air attack the various convoys to Malta suffered.
I do like the words of one US Navy Liason Officer aboard one of the Illustrious Class though, when his report following a Kamikaze attack hitting the ship simply stated the crew bulldozed the burning wreck overboard, doused the deck with salt water, and had her ready to cycle aircraft within ten minutes of being hit. Downside of this though is that if a British Carrier did suffer significant damage they took longer to repair...
Lol the Yorktowns had the opposite of glass jaws. Yorktown was struck by planes during Midway, but was so quick to repair the damage the second wave of planes from Soryu thought that she was a new US carrier. Enterprise survived so many attacks that she was called "Grey Ghost" by the Japanese, she even went into some battles heavily damaged.
Hello Drachinifel. Greetings from the Far East
Hey Drachinifel, loved the video! Do you have plans on doing videos for each ship of the class?
At about 5.50 there seem to be some words skipped from the text - the robovoice didn't do that and mentioned Indomitable running aground instead of sailing to Singapore.
I had forgotten that the British used Corsair. Guess their longer range was more than a little useful. sm
The Royal Navy were the first ones to use the Corsair since the U.S Navy did kinda rejected initially due to its handling difficulty when landing on carriers. The Americans later adopted the Corsair with lessons learned from the British, along with the Hellcat.
The RN showed up how chicken sh-- the USN was and helped bring the corsairs onto carrier decks.
@@khaccanhle1930 The Americans had two choices for the new carrier fighter. One had a little better performance but it's take-off and especially it's landing characteristics were terrible for carrier operations. So the Americans chose the other plane (the Hellcat) for carriers and sent the slightly better performing plane (the Corsair) to the Marines who were more than happy to get them. The Americans had options and therefore no great need to spend the time and possibly lives figuring out how to make the Corsair carrier proficient.
The British on the other hand were in desperate need of a high performance carrier fighter and the Hellcats were all needed for the USN and so they had the incentive to make the Corsair work on carriers which to their great credit they did.
Khắc cảnh lê - ummm, go stuff yourself. The Yanks launched B-25 Medium Bombers off carrier decks 4 months after Pearl Harbor to attack Tokyo which took balz. The Yanks built over 12,000 Hellcats starting in 1943 and so it was an easy decision to use the Hellcats off carriers and to assign Corsairs to Marine pilots on island bases. Every time the Marines took an island they based Corsairs on it. Later in ‘44 and ‘45 when so many Essex class carriers arrived in theater then it was a natural progression to move those Corsair squadrons onto carriers.
@@BHuang92 Well, technically the US Marines were the first to use the Corsairs on their land bases...
The last thing Kamikaze pilots expect... an armored hull, dying honorably by dealing a lot of damage is one, dying stupid is another where all you accomplished is a minor inconvenience to the enemy force
He did not have a soft landing
@@jvtagle neither did the Kamikazes against Illustrious
Implacable class
Always liked this channel..very well done with history and interesting comments.
My eyes are not as good as they were 50 years ago. At first glance I thought this was about the HMS Hilarious.
Implacable and indefatigable are considered modified Illustrious carriers. They were somewhat larger with larger airgroups.
I,m interested in HMS Glorious, I wonder if you could do a vid on her!!
Those kinds of “political” decisions can quickly lead to political and other oblivion. Wonderful looking and very effective ships. They took more bomb hits each than was required to turn the tide of the war at Midway in toto. Way to go, Brits!!
Dear Sir: could you do a video on the US Navy Adams class destroyers please? Thanks
Really nice and sturdy ships. I really like their form of the bow.
But I wonder: why was the deck sloped DOWN at the front and not up or just straight?
I mean, sloping the aft down seems reasonable, to allow better landing. Was it supposed to land over the bow? Or is it a design for the weather in the north Atlantic?
I believe that the round-down at the bow was designed to produce an updraft, to assist aircraft launches. US carriers were designed to recover planes over the bows in an emergency but I think that this was never contemplated in the RN?
So, they started life as reasonably armed perfectly British aircraft carriers and then read the 2nd Amendment and started adding guns, all the guns!
Illustrious started life as one of the most heavily armed British aircraft carriers, long before there was any American influence. Increases in AA armament up until early 1945 primarily consistent of replacing existing single mount 20mm guns with twins. Even for Pacific service, only one of the six octuple pom poms was replaced with a twin Bofors mount. It wasn't until 1946, when the RN in general was rearming with Bofors guns, that more of the pom poms were removed, and it wasn't until 1948 that the last pom poms were removed and replaced with Bofors guns. This is one ship that wasn't a Second Amendment version of a British vessel.
@@sarjim4381 If you want to find out more info on the illustrious look for a book called Illustrious by Kenneth Poolman great account of what happened to the ship during the war mainly from the point of the air crews but a great read all the same. My granddad was on the lusty and is still around at 94, you might be surprised to find out that it was refitted with extra guns in the US it was when it came back that my granddad joined for the pacific part of its story.
Hello , Kindly look into doing a Guide on the Crown Colony Class Cruiser HMS Nigeria penant number 60...........she is named for Nigeria who gained independence on October 1st 1960 and we are 60 years old this year. So a lot of 60s.......... and she was part of a team that captured an Enigma Machine and code books........Thanks in advance
I thought the Art Royal was built for scouting operations in the North Sea with an armored flight deck and a small hanger with very short height. The hanger an armored box. There was a comment about the Ark Royal being built for the Pacific?
Ark did not have an armoured flight deck. Because of this, she could have a 2 level hangar when the Illustrious class could accommodate only one level.
q and a please do an episode on the dutch submarines of the dutch east indies like the HNLMS K XV
Can we have a long video of the illustrious Class please?
guess I'll take second then.
🦅
Great video! Carriers are by definition offensive weapons, so who is the UK planning to go to war with (or are they deterring everyone) buying their two new fancy carriers with F35s??
It's along the idea of "If you do something I don't like, this is the stick I'll beat you with. So, behave yourself."
Was Indomitable not bombed on the pedestal convoy then?
Where did the name Illustrious come from?
Question you say she was lended to America cause they only had one (Saratoga) but what about the Enterprise and ranger
Ranger was too fragile to risk against the Japanese, Enterprise needed extensive repairs and overhaul.
Alunita Inghinala ok thanks
Not only was *Ranger* fragile but it was somewhat pokey. Flat out the *Ranger* could only do 29 knots. The Japanese cruisers in the Pacific could sprint at over 35 knots and there was a real chance *Ranger* could have been run down by the wolf like Japanese cruisers. By 1943 the Japanese were quite good with their type 93 torpedoes (the legendary "Long Lance") and the USN knew in 1942 that a single modern torpedo would probably been fatal to *Ranger* . *Ranger* gave excellent service in the Atlantic. Also, the *USS Essex* was on line by mid-1943 and the *USS Independence* joined the Pacific fleet in the second half of '43. In December of 1942 the USN had one operational CVA in the Pacific. By December of 1943 the USN had the attack carriers of *Enterprise, Saratoga, Essex, Yorktown II, Lexington II, Bunker Hill* ; light carriers of *Princeton, Independence* , and *Belleau Woods* .
Lumbering class CVs
Indomitable ran aground while entering Kingston harbour, Jamaica because her captain didn't trust the local pilot. Her repairs meant she wouldn't arrive in Singapore in time to join Prince of Wales and Repulse when they sortied and were sunk by Japanese carrier planes.
Didn’t the same thing happened to Franklin when she returned to Pearl Harbor after nearly being sunk?
Deatb by politician. A terrible fate for any war machine
Third? Also - keep them coming :)
Good names for Imperial Star Destroyers 😂
the 5th i shall be
HMS Victorious. Is there a capital ship of WW2 with more significance? Add her long history and innovations that are still in use today and can there be a ship of more importance? If she had stayed American she would most likely be enshrined in some port today.
Considering how Big E ended up at the scrapyard, probably not honestly.
3 videos until this comment on one day ? Is it already xmas?
Just what ever you do, don't call Formidable heavy lol
Don't we all hate those political decisions.
Aircraft carriers or the NHS? At the end of the day is the cold war went hot UK carriers would be less useful than the airforce or army.