Australia's Forgotten Aircraft Carriers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- After World War 2, the Royal Australian Navy embarked on a strategy of blue water operations centered around aircraft carriers. But the aircraft strategy for the Royal Australian Navy wasn’t to last with the HMAS Melbourne being decommissioned in 1982. Could Australia have continued to operate a carrier battle group for its defence and projection of power?
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I'm ex RAN, paying off in 1975. I could not believe it when the Melbourne was not replaced. So much skill and experience lost, to the delight of potential enemies. Recent events have proved just how shortsighted defence planners can be.
Just defense planners? This is Australia mate, our national motto as a nation is to be as short sighted as possible in every conceivable way possible.... how else do you think we managed to create a housing crises in a country with one of the lowest populations per square kilometer? You got to have a truckload of crisp and shiny shortsightedness to manage to make that happen.... honestly i am so F-ing over it, despite the huge piles of blessings showered upon us by this country we somehow have to find all the ways to turn all our blessings into meh..... i am tired of it, so tired.
Yes, the "Lucky Country." Lucky if you have a decent job, lucky if you can find affordable housing, lucky if you don't take a massive education debt with you when you get a job.........It could be worse. America is like us except they have unaffordable health care.
@@mystikmind2005
Mate it’s not the Defence Planners fault, it’s the corrupt Politicians that never allocate enough funds for the Defence of our Country.
If the Government waste and abuse of Taxpayers money was corrected we’d have Billions more for Defence.
I once did a job for a Flag Officer in acquisitions in the RAAF who was leaving to Canberra and his main complaint was the Government wanting to spend more on welfare and less on the F35 or other Aircraft.
The Feds will throw money at any welfare rort to garner votes but not to defend the Country.
The same happened in the Netherlands with the retirement of the aircraft carrier Karel Doorman in 1968.
Maybe the Canberra’s can be fitted with f-35Bs
I have never understood why we didn’t replaced our aircraft carriers. I was a kid when I visited the Melbourne in an open day. I was so proud to know that my navy had such a potent weapon. I’m not a military person, but surely we need such ships to protect our naval units and support our regional missions.
The RAN almost ended up with an Invincible class CVL, the RN were looking to offload one due to budget constraints before they were even finished... then Argentina got some strange ideas and we decided we'd kind of like to keep all three.
Paul - it's simple; money. Australia could not afford it. It's no good having just an aircraft carrier. The Melbourne was allowed to become a clapped out old tub as money to maintain it could not be found. A carrier is a sitting duck if you don't have the destroyer screen to protect it. There is more money expended in one USN carrier task force than our entire navy.
The Melbourne, although it didn't arrive until the mid 1950's, was essentially a war-surplus item bought cheap. It was designed for North Atlantic service and was in fact quite unsuitable for service in the Pacific. It didn't have the range needed and so was not a potent force at all.
FAR FAR better than feeling of pride.. was the deadly effectinces of long rang refuelled attach aircraft
@@foraustralia2558 : Very true. And a lot cheaper too.
Melbourne was worn out. There wasn't an easily bought replacement after England had the Falklands war. We were supposed to buy a replacement from them but they still needed it still..... In reality and correctly it was pointed out that the F111s and the Collins class could do the job. What we really missed out on was what the HMAS Sydney was used for during Vietnam.... It was used as a deployment ship and base and shuttled everything to and from.... We had to hire a ferry (HMAS Jarvis Bay) during INTERFERT.... That's why we now have HMAS Adelaide and Canberra.....
I never knew Australia had carriers in-service. This is a good informative video about Australia's military past.
In the 1959 movie ON THE BEACH. The RAN Carrier Melbourne was in the movie.
Yeah it's sad we don't have a couple
Of carrier groups now. Being a large
Island nation they would work well
Especially keeping an eye on the
Illegal immigration problem we had
In early 21st century.
I didn't either... I'm Canadian, we had 2 carriers as well at some point. One replacing the other during the cold war
We also had another 2 during the second world war.
Crazy to think that when we look at our current fleets and defense spending. Canada is severely slacking for honestly not very good reasons. Canada doesn't need aircraft carriers, but amphibious assault ships with helidecks would be incredibly useful for the coasts should there be natural disasters, plus we can say we bring something to the table for our allies other than patrol boats, great patrol subs when they work, and frigates.
@@LSturboguy My father was a keen photographer when I was young, he had several photos of us kids in our prams and mum with the HMAS Sydney behind us, when we were at Taronga Park during a trip to NSW.
@@martinjenkins6467 Given the necessary maintenance requirements and procedures, we should have 3 carriers. 1 at sea, 1 at home between deployments and one refitting during full cycle docking. This is likely why we don't have any, as the costs are prohibitive, and then there's the expansion of naval forces we'd have to do, not to mention we've squandered all our previous carrier experience, so we would need to get some of our personnel to serve on either US or UK carriers, or ideally both.
There's a bit of the story you missed. Australia and Britain agreed on the sale HMS Invincible in February 1982 as a replacement for Melbourne. It was to be renamed HMAS Australia. The sale was cancelled just 2 months later at the outbreak of the Falklands War.
I thought the same thing when he skipped over this part
In fact the media christened her HMAS Inevitable. But inter-service rivalry won out when the RAAF and the Army ganged up against the RAN claiming the new F/A 18 Hornet could protect the Navy. So the RAN had to hire the RNZAF - former RAN A4 Skyhawks to practice fleet defence.
We were all talking about, if we would be sent to receive her , but alas , that never happened
I was on HMAS Melbourne when we docked at Station Pier in Melbourne (1981 I think) when the tugs were on strike. Melbourne did not have bow thrusters, so the skipper improvised. From memory it was three Gruman Trackers chained down the forward flight deck and two on the aft flight deck. Their engines were used to draw us into the Pier. HMAS Perth was with us and she pulled into the other side of the pier like a speed boat and navy guys from HMAS Cerebrus bussed in to handle the lines as the wharfies were on strike too. All the people (spectators) on the Pier (including my parents) were suitably impressed, though I don't think the wharfies were 🙂.
Great Story...!!!
Using aircraft to assist berthing was relatively common. It was called "Pinwheeling". I first saw it being used by the Dutch aircraft carrier Karel Doorman in Fremantle West Australia - the early sixties.
They did this in the early 1970s also docking at Station Pier as my Dad took me down to watch & the dockyard was also on strike & I remember the roar of the Trackers.
Was on that trip, 2 delta stbd mess , was an eye opener for sure
I was on the Frank E Evans when we were sunk. The crew of the Melbourne was the most professional I have ever seen. They had boats in the water and helos launched quickly and were picking up survivors within minutes. But the best part was the Foster's beer.
Wow. What an experience that must have been!
I was on HMAS Melbourne mate a bad night, all the best mate
Many of my shipmates survived because of the quickness of your crew. @@MsRodney48
I saw the stern of the USS Evans when my ship pulled into the naval base at Subic Bay. What a hollow feeling see it with no bow or superstructure.
@@josephkrupp7430 It was strange going aboard to empty my locker. They had the lights on but no ventilators. It was dead quiet. I was a QM3 at the time. We also packed the locker of the QM that didn't make it. Except for the chief, the only married one, and with a baby. After stripping, they used the stern for 5" practice. I talked to someone on one of the DDs that shot and torpedoed the hulk.
Shame Australia and Canada gave up their sea wings. I can see where it mattered far less for the Canadians, but Australia lives in an increasingly rough neighborhood and really should have a solid naval air capability.
America didnt want us to have them
We should, but we simply cannot afford it. It's a big continent but barely anyone, relatively speaking, lives here. Our people would rather enjoy the comforts we have now that make it such a better place to live than say, the US with a huge military budget, than have an aircraft carrier that we are incapable of supporting and protecting. We'd sacrifice too much for a ship that isn't worth it.
I saw the Melbourne when I was still in school post her decommission, the damage from the 2 collisions with Voyager and the Evans and the resulting repairs was most noticeable.
HMS Invincible was intended to be a replacement however her deployment to the Falklands war in 82 saw that endeavor cease. Good video.
Yes that is correct, Invincible was allocated as a replacement but reassigned to the Falklands, I remember this when it occured.
Not sure the Invincible sale would have survived the Mar 1983 change of government anyway, Hawke had no interest in buying a carrier.
Your right it was invincible oops! I wrote ark royal in my comment
The British Government offered to build a new carrier for the same price ($100 Million) but the Labor government as usual for labor had no interest in the defence of Australia and cancelled it
In the late 90's I worked with a couple of ex-RAN servicemen that served on the Melbourne, the stories they had made it seem "fun". Apparently not a comfortable ship though being based on a WW2 ship. Glad you covered the "whoopsee" selling it to the Chinese, apparently the cheeky little buggars asked the Australian gumbyment for the blueprints to the catapault. I think this is when the coin dropped lol! I heard the Americans weren't happy with the Melbourne ending up there (same with Mirages going to Pakistan).
The Mirages going to Pakistan was about as popular as a fart in a lift for quite a few nations. France and the UK weren't happy, let alone India.
My father always spoke fondly of his time serving on the Melbourne. Some of the most challenging flying of his career.
I served in the RAN from 1954 until 1960 and saw all of these three carriers, though I only set foot of two of them. I served on the Sydney for about four months in 1955. By then, she no longer had any aircraft aboard although she remained at that time the RAN's flagship. My next draft after that was a River Class frigate. Melbourne became the Flagship after her arrival in May 1956.
Fascinating video! As a relative spring chicken and someone who has only really got into Australian military history more recently, I've found it fascinating to hear how we had quite a large aircraft carrier force.
I can recall many years ago reading the history of aircraft carriers by Admiral Nimitz (USN) and he wrote that the HMAS Sydney carried out more combat sorties in a 24 hour period than any other carrier during the korean war. This probably relates to the comment by the narrator early in this video.
we once had the 5th largest airforce in the world as well
I guess it's a compromise@@shanehansen3705. A big military verses the welfare system that all of us use?
Having served in the Melbourne 1964/6 (POEC) I was amazed and disappointed that the decision was made not to find a replacement - how bloody shortsighted that has proved to be
It was the deliberate sabotaging of our nation from within. Henry F0rd tried to warn us.
That was a fantastic video. My father actually served on HMAS Melbourne.
My dad said he worked with a bloke who fell off it in Vietnam...apparently, the captain had to stop the whole group to pick him up. Said he didn't get yelled at, but the captain simply said, very calmly and very, very clearly, if he falls off again they're not stopping next time. Yes, the bloke was drunk...
Melbourne never went to vietnam.@@hoilst265
@@hoilst265 so was the captain most of the time old mate
Drunken Duncan
As an Australian I would be most proud to have an aircraft carrier in our navy.
Before the Falklands War British PM Margret Thatcher had sold the HMS Invincible (VTOL) carrier to Australia, at a bargin price, with delivery after the other 2 ships of the class had entered RN service. After that war Thatcher had to ask Australian PM Malcolm Fraser to cancel the sale as the RN now required the service of all three Invincible class ships. Fraser obviously adhered to her request. The delivery of the old HMS Hermes to India was also delayed. During the war completed Indian first Harrier's, still in England, went directly to the RN to bolster numbers. Later production units were delivered to the Indian Navy.
I wish we had LO1 Amphibious with LO3 F35B as taskforce 1 and LO2 with LO4 in the same setup as taskforce 2. Along with the nuclear subs these taskforces would be formidable.
I wish the Australians had a fixed wing carrier battle group too! Remember, 1 is none, 2 is 1, and 3 is some. So 3 it is.
We won’t be able to easily man these new nuclear subs let alone all those in that “dream acquisition”
@@jakerubino3233 Conscription
there was another carrier lined up for purchase in the early eighties, HMS Invincible very nearly entered RAN service and at the last minute the Argentinian invasion of the Falklands put a hasty end to that deal
I was working at Bankstown airport at the time and we had Harriers there being repaired.
yes. The story that I heard was that the UK Government was just about ready to sell Invincible to us, in replacing HMAS Melbourne paid off in 1982. Invincible was a lot newer, having been commissioned in 1977. However, our Prime Minister Fraser realised the implications of the Argentine invasion and "offered" it (back) to Maggie Thatcher - gratefully accepted and it went on to serve in the Iraq War (first one, I think).
@@petergraves2085 could have Australian Skyhawks took off, and landed back on it ?
@@skylongskylong1982 I don't think so. It flew Sea Harriers. An upward-curved ski-jump ramp at an angle of 6.5 degrees was fitted at the forward end of the ship's flight deck. This allowed the carrier's Sea Harriers to take off with a higher disposal payload, while shortening the take-off run, leaving more space for helicopter operations.[8] The ship had a design air wing of ten Westland Sea King anti-submarine helicopters and eight British Aerospace Sea Harrier STOVL jet fighters.
I remember the Melbourne coming into Gibraltar in 1977 on its way to the Queens Silver Jubilee and the Fleet Revue, when I was serving at the Royal Naval Hospital
A carrier or two makes sense due to the size of this country, the RAAF only has three (air defence) squadrons of F35 and two of those are in Newcastle and one in Katherine. We have no air defence assetts in WA, we have dry bases there, but it would take the best part of a month to get them properly operational and even then you would have fuel and weapon issues, let alone repair. the recent DSR works on bare minimums for the ADF with no scope for aircraft losses etc in a conflict. In WW2 you could build a Spitfire in 24 hours, the build time of a F35 in 41.5k hours.
Yes! We NEED two more Canberra Class and a wing of F-35b... That is, if we ever stand any hope of projecting any meaningful power beyond the mainland. A wing of this F-15ex would be a good acquisition as well, you know to recover the speed, range, and payload capabilities we lost when the F-111 fleet was decommissioned.
A Super Hornet with LRASM missiles has similar reach to what the RAAF F-111s had and is more survivable.
@@Harldin How is that more survivable? You don't think LRSM could also be delivered by a platform with 40% more speed, range, and payload..?
@@SteepSix Yes if the F-111 had all the stuff required to integrate the LRASM but they would be absolutely useless for everything else a FA-18F can do, and would be an absolute sitting duck if they got any closer. Top speed in a jet Fighter is about as useless as the proverbial t*** on a bull, the far more important speed, is the cruising speed which the aircraft can maintain mission loaded.
Well done. HMAS Melbourne was also a movie star - appearing in the original version of On The Beach.
It is also seen in the background of some scenes in movie "The Siege of Pinchgut'
I was aboardMelbourne 77-79, ships company Air Division on the flight deck. Great times.
I was on Melbourne 1966 to 1972
I was in the Canadian Navy in the 70's when the Melbourne visited Vancouver. They had such a good time that the Melbourne had to leave early while they still had enough sailors to make it home. Good times, good times.
My dad had to crawl inside the cylinders of those steam catapults during a refurbishment at Garden Island. He had to spend days inside them measuring and polishing the surfaces down to an acceptable standard. He was a smaller man but he would get stuck in places. He would have to just keep wiggling until he could move on.
Very interesting video, I always thought Australia only had one carrier the Melbourne - some of the video material actually depicted Dutch Fairey Fireflies also operating from a former British Colossus Class Carrier “HrMS Karel Doorman” (formerly HMS Venerable).
Sometimes we've had to use footage like this to tell the story because either the exact footage isn't available or we've been unable to find it or some company wants and arm and a leg for it. We do our best with what's available.
Gone but not forgotten. HMAS Melbourne visited NZ in the late 70's and I was impressed! Our RNZAF got the RAN Skyhawks to complement our existing Skyhawks and I got s ride in one once it was awesome.! The Skyhawks ended up with Draken International .. thanks from NZ 👍✈️🇳🇿
Dad served on all three australian carriers and saw Albatross in plymouth harbour when commisioning Sydney. I was on Melbourne when we moved her too her disposal (graveyard) mooring below taronga zoo
I have some photos somewhere of HMAS Melbourne taken by myself from across the bay whilst visiting Taronga Zoo as a kid. two thrills in one day for a country kid. The zoo and a RAN carrier.
My father was on the crew that went to the UK to commission Melbourne and bring it back, It was a great trip back for them with some crazy stories from many ports we heard over the years
I read once that the Australian Navy wanted a third Canberra class Ship to use as an Aircraft Carrier with F35Bs the the Government said no because of lack of manpower
True. It’s hard enough to man the vessels we have at the moment let alone before this new sub fleet.
My father inlaw Rocky (rip) served on the Melbourne in the 80s and i served on tobruk in the 90s she was a good ship
This was super interesting. I haven't heard much about them before. Could definitely imagine a few of those stories being turned into a movie.
It might be a option for Australia to make a new ship that would be much bigger then the landingships currently in service, yet have carreir capacities as well directly build in. Even with just 10-20 F-35's it should become a powerful tool for both landings as air support. It will also need 2-4 AWACS type aircraft and additional air units to help with carrier operations and additional tasks.
As part of defence cuts, HMS Invincible was due to be sold to Australia in 1983 for £175 million. The 1982 Falklands War, made that politically impossible. If Australia wants a few F-35B, they should wait until 2030 for the upgraded engine & new radar.
The F-35B is not getting the improved engine. Only the A and C models will get upgraded engines.
The Australian ships will first need major modifications to carry F-35B’s. 2030 is a reasonable delivery date
Which engine? The engine core upgrade of the existing P&W can be fitted to all 3 F-35 variants. The new GE 3 flow engine can only be fitted to A & C.@@downix
@@audacity60 I was led to believe the P&W was not for export
Up to now, all F-35 have P&W engines. GE may be an option in the future. The existing P&W engine struggles with each new lot of F-35 needing more & more power. Hence the high maintenance costs. The engine core upgrade for P&W cannot come too soon. If the USA wants to sell more F-35 to allies, they will have to offer the engine upgrade, as future lots will not work without it.@@downix
The Melbourne was in Sydney awaiting her fate for years. It was used on a number of occasions, as a 'training target'. There's a few blokes around that can claim they 'sunk' her, several times.
Still interesting where she is today.
Awesome video. Thank you.
Forgotten? Not by anyone who served. When I joined in 73, the fleet was centred around Melbourne, and Sydney had only recently been laid up, and was at the "decomm ship" berth near Taronga zoo. Although it hadn't been a carrier for a while, it had been a troop transport for years.
While Melbourne was getting on by the early 80's, it still provided a good capability, even more so back then as none of our escorts carried helo's, unlike now. But it was very maintenance /manpower intensive.
It was still a sad day when they announced that she would be decommissioned.
During my years at sea in DE's/Darings in company at sea with Melbourne, we spent our fair share of time as "RESDES" during flying ops with her.
I remember HMAS Melbourne and Torrens at Station Pier in Melbourne open to the public in 1972. My father took me along and we visited both ships. The next time I saw her was anchored in Port Phillip Bay in 1985. We sailed past her on the family yacht admiring her empty hulk before the Chinese had collected her. We raised a glass to her as we passed.
ps The week we saw her in 1985, a workman on the ship fell from the superstructure and died. Adding to her reputation of a cursed ship.
The RAN should look into deploying a carrier the size of the new USS America. Combined with the F-35B it would be a much more affordable force projection platform
This channel is freaking great , keep it up !!
If Australia wants to have a naval aviation force at sea again I think the obvious choice would be the South Korean DSME light carrier design which was 30,000 tons standard displacement with the capability for 16 F-35b plus helicopters.
agreed, just think its strange if we are all partners amd have one common enemy why is America is holding back the better vertical lift version for it's self
@@Lexe-is5nv what version are they withholding?
Great video, I remember seeing the Melbourne in the mothball fleet on Sydney Harbour before she was sold for scrap.
In Sydney Harbor
Early 80s I lived down end of Potts Point Sydney you could see the Melbourne parked up at the Naval base from our lounge window got a few pictures of her too
Excellent video, it poses some interesting questions.
I'm old enough, that I have a poignant memory regarding Australian Carriers.
When I entered the US Navy in 1978, I distinctly recall that there were still US Destroyermen who referred to HMAS Melbourne as "The Can Opener".
Years of fine service, but when you've cut not one, but two destroyers in half, some folks will remember you, even if for all the wrong reasons.
That's not meant as a dig, but just a memory from the past.
great presentation.
From MT - USA...
... Thank you, Aussies...
... For saving us, too.
You are - impressively - remembered.
That was great, well done
We too (in Canada) remember a time ... *sigh* ... when we had a navy.
😂😅
Fantastic work mate!
Nice. I spent a lot of time watching as REDES behind Melbourne. Working upper deck watching the Trackers and Syhawks land was awesome. Again, the Government stabbed the navy in the back to spend more on the dole for indolents. A sad day when Melbourne was carted off for razor blades and Australia had no foresight for future operations as a blue water navy. My time, 1975-1995.
Thank you for the video.
The RAN will never operate F35B for the Canberra Class . The flight deck itself has not got the correct surface to handle the jet engine heat and they would have to reconfigure the entire ship to do so. I got to go onboard the HMAS Melbourne in 1980 in Jakarta Indonesia 🇮🇩. Great memory.
The original Navantia design was *literally* produced with the operation of Harriers and F-35Bs in mind. The Canberra variant was bought with the understanding that a possible future refit allowing the use of STOVL aircraft was relatively minor-- relatively minor here meaning still a complex task requiring a partial rebuilt of the flight deck and reconfiguration (*not* rebuild) of the Hangar space, but able to be turned around in several months, as opposed to years. The thing is, doing so would meaning greatly reducing the ADF's amphibious capabilities. If there were a third Canberra class ship available, then it would be a more feasible proposition, but it's not remotely impossible.
The science teacher at my High School was a Navy Cadet back in the day and played the Last Post on the flight deck during decommissioning in 1982.
I was on the decommissioning crew. Labour government made a total mess of the fleet air arm.
Sold the F4s and leased them back from NZ Air Force. Tracker sat on the tarmac for 5 years. All knowledge out the door. And a great job on Collins class a total disaster.
As an Australian I'm disgusted that we no longer have them
Nice video. Clearly the Melbourne, as big as it was, wasn't designed for the Jet age & I always thought that even the nimble Skyhawks look too big on the deck. And with a strike group of only 4-6, why bother?
As has already been mentioned, HMS Invincible was almost Melbourne's replacement under the Fraser Govt at a give-away price before the Faulklands war. It's success in the Fauklands however changed Britains mind on wanting to sell it, and a change of Govt here saw the Hawke Government no longer interested in buying it.
Not at all surprised the sale of the Melbourne to the Chinese was a catalyst for their Aircraft Carrier development. Well done boys!
Interesting note about Britains Invincible Class Carriers is that the British MOD allegedly "deceived" the British Parliament into approving their construction & acquisition by proposing them as missle-armed Cruisers with a Through-Deck Helicopter capability in support of ground deployments. Sound familiar? The term "aircraft carrier" was never used. Meanwhile the Royal Navy was simultaneously developing the Sea Harrier, fully intending it would be deployed on the new ships. However, Invincible's deck was still too short for horizontal unassisted take off (no catapult), so in a stroke of brilliance, the ski jump was invented, which solved the problem. It was never part of the original design, but became it's trademark feature.
And now we have two new ships which come with a ski jump as standard. Hmm??? They reckon it was too expensive to modify the design to remove it. How convenient. Having said that, it looks like the RAN is blowing their spending money for the next 50 years on nuclear submarines, so I think it's highly unlikely we'll see RAN F-35B's operating of the Canberra or Adelaide LHD's.
I mean, I'd hardly say selling a carrier to the Chinese for "scrapping" is hardly a well done moment lol
The Melbourne was actually an Anti Submarine Carrier and the S-2 Trackers and Sea Kings were just as important if not more so than the A-4s.
When I was about 10 the Melbourne had a sailor's family 'for want of a better word' cruise. My uncle was a Chief Petty Officer at the time. I don't remember wher we went but we sailed out of Sydney harbour and didnt return to the next day.
When old enough I always said I would join up if we had a carrier, alas it never eventuated.
I think our royal Australian navy should have air craft carriers
Being surrounded by ocean it's probably a good idea !!
nathanroberts, no. a jetski full of explosives can sink it.
One of the factors which influenced the decision to not replace the Melbourne was the Falklands War. Australia was in serious negotiations with the British government to purchase the Invincible and a complement of Harriers to replace the obsolescent Skyhawks. When the Invincible and its Harriers proved their usfulness in that conflict, the Thatcher government blocked the sale. The alternative, the Hermes was not considered a sufficiently more advanced platform than the Melbourne and was rejected. In the end, it all came down to money. Australia could either afford a new carrier plus aircraft, or a new submarine fleet plus frigates. Hence Collins and the FFGs.
As a result of this decision, the RAN no longer flies any fixed-wing aircraft and the RAAF doesn't fly helicopters. The Skyhawks were sold (or given?) to the RNZAF and since they were retired the Kiwi airforce no longer flies fighter or bomber aircraft.
In terms of projection of power, an aircraft carrier has an effective radius of 1000nmi, a missile frigate 100nmi.
Australia actually ran a competition in 1979-81 for a replacement, with the Italians offering the Garibaldi design, the British the Invincible design and the US a version of the Iwo Jima and the Sea Control Ship (a version of which become the Spanish Principe de Asturias). The Invincible design was dropped fairly early and in Feb 1981, interestingly the Iwo Jima design was selected, possibly due to being a better swing-role ship between CV and LPH. But this plan was dropped when the Invincible become available. If Australia had ended up with a carrier in the 80s, we would not have seen Fighters till the early 90s and they would almost certainly been AV-8B Harriers from the US not Sea Harriers, Radar and weapons commonality with the RAAF FA-18A the telling factor.
Excellent blog. I suspect that a return to Navy fixed wing capability is inevitable given the advantages.
One of HMAS Sydneys Anchors is on a plinth outside of the Airmens Mess at RAAF Wagga.
F35B's for the Canberra class LHDs would in effect be the final element marking Australia's move to become a 1st rank global naval power.
Wow. A lot there I knew nothing about. Excellent.
As a child i was taken aboard the Melbourne on an open day when it came to Brissy in the early 70's. but whenever i mention the Melbourne people say i am crazy, we never had a carrier.
A carrier sure would be a bonus to our defense needs..
We don't have the fleet nor the capacity to field one aircraft carrier. Even if we did convert those ships to carry F-35Bs, we would only get a max of 12 aircraft, and these would be at the expense of other aircraft. So, whilst it's based the Spanish Juan Carlos 1 - the two classes are not the same.
The biggest embarrassment the Australian Navy has ever been responsible for - not replacing the Melbourne.
Huge hole in this story. HMAS Melbourne replacement was planned to be HMS Invincible/HMAS Australia in 1982.
One small note - we didn't operate the de Havilland Venom per se, we operated the carrier variant, the Sea Venom
Also... no mention of the intention to purchase the British HMS Invincible for the RAN? As I remember things, the idea was accepted by both parties but then the Argies invaded the Falklands and the Brits decided they did actually need their aircraft carriers.
In truth, Australia doesn't NEED a full carrier. Manpower wise, they require to much crew. The austrialians don't project power globally and most of their air operation could be handled via land based aircraft.
That said. they COULD use pocket carriers, the new japanese carriers, i mean helicopter destroyers... would be perfect, operating a small wing of ASW and AEW aircraft, maybe a few f-35's. they could handle the anti-sub threats, anti-piracy, and other rolls efficantly with much fewer manpower dedication
Consdier a US carrier runs with about 4200 crew, france runs with 1500 crew, Uk's QE class is 1600... and japans ISE is 371.
So australia could operate 3-4 of those for the manpower cost of 1 medium carrier like the QE. As such it could spread them out for normal patrols then bring them togeather to form the firepower of a larger carrier when needed.
Other services invested interests, the collisions wouldn’t have helped.
BUT an essex class with harriers would have been cool, skyhawks on a light carrier would have been rather hairy to operate, much respect to the pilots of the RAN.
Impractical to convert the Canberra class to a carrier. They would require a lot of new infrastructure to support aircraft including hangars, maintenance, refuelling, and possibly even new strengthened decks. It would be cheaper and more effective to buy a new class of carrier, however the cost-effectiveness of a carrier for a small force is questionable. A lot of resources are needed to support the carrier. Each carrier would need its own escorts including an Air Warfare Destroyer which would remove them from other tasks. Nice to have, yes. Projects power, yes. Cost-effective? I doubt it. Affordable for Australia? No. Adding Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (UCAV), that many refer to incorrectly as drones, is more feasible, but that is far from making the Canberra Class LHD a carrier. An LHD is a littoral warship, not a Carrier which is a stand-off and launch longer-range aircraft airport. Completely different roles.
With a certain country, to the north making "nasty noises" a carrier strike group would seem vital. Such a thing would be expensive, but what price insurance? And since we are now buying nuclear subs make it a nuclear powered beast. We have to have back up for the subs so why not a carrier as well?
I'm actually really surprised that Australia doesn't have a carrier force. You location and the fact that you are all an island nation continent in such a strategic location in the world just kinda demands the projection of power that carriers provide. With all the strife in the region that China is causing, a carrier or six would do wonders for the protection and stability of the entire region...
I like the narrator clear an strat voice
Several aircraft from HMAS Sydney were stranded at Whangarei airport in New Zealand after a gear failure onboard towards the end of a visit there in the early '50s. I've read plenty about the episode, but one thing eludes me - identifying the exact aircraft involved. Off the top of my head it was three Sea Furies and two Fireflies. Can anyone direct me towards more details of the aircraft that landed at Whangarei, please?
The two helo carriers Australia has now can easily have their decks (upgraded) heat resistance treated like the Japanese carriers to support the F35B and go into service as new air craft carriers in the RAF :) pretty simple really
AUKUS!!!🦅⚡💪
does make you think - would the RAN be better off with a force of modern carriers instead of the planned nuclear subs? We'd ideally want at least 3, so there is always enough on hand should 1 be down for unplanned maintenance. A worthwhile investment in extra support ships would be worthwhile too. Though I think it is safe to say the Collins boats have seen their better days and do need replacing
The UK has over double your population and struggles to crew its two carriers.
A very interesting video. I served on Sydney in 1956 when she was used as a training ship for Cerberus recruits .
There were no aircraft operations.
In 1958 I served as an AB on Melbourne when she was deployed on Far East Strategic Reserve operations during the Malayan Emergency, the UK's police action against the attempted communist takeover of the Malay Peninsula.
I paid off in 1963 when we still had a Fleet Air Arm. How things have changed!
I sailed on HMAS Melbourne briefly as a smn UC basically making up the numbers as she didn’t have a sonar! She engendered a great love and respect of those who sailed in her. I was in WA when I heard she was being decommissioned a great loss to the navy. This was just before the Falklands war and there was talk of us purchasing HMS Ark Royal the ski jump version, but if it was a possibility the brits decided to keep her after that conflict. Maybe our government should have taken a leaf out of that particular book!
Correct myself it was HMS Invincible
Ark Royal was offered after Invincible was retained by the RN following the Falklands war. But government rejected it, sadly.
Don't forget the first attempt at buying and operating an Aircraft carrier. The short lived HMAS Albatross.
The time has come to add F-35's to ADELAIDE and CANBERRA.
I can remember the Sydney in Sydney Harbour as a kid.
BEST decision in Aust defence history to SWAP a venerable small aircraft carries for the 3rd best Air to Air refuelling capability in the world and JORN.... We need leaders like Beasley who plan to win the next war ..
4:40 a movie we need…
Very good video thank you as I understand the decks of the two ships Australia has now would need some reinforcement for the F35 and upgrade the surface of them and it would not be a problem. Spain has already been flying the Harriers it still has from the same type of ship in their navy.
Given both Canberra class were not constructed with decks that are suitable for F35 (heat of the engine) a complete rebuild would be required prior to any consideration and when you consider their size means that at best they could operate only 4 at most aircraft it would be pointless.
In terms of bang for buck as well as force projection, it would make a lot more sense for Australia to be spending it's money on a new aircraft carrier and battle group rather than subs.
2 comments, i had no idea that the fireflies were so long-lived, off to read about that! and maybe we could buy a few Izumos which will be pre strengthened to cope.
So Australia doesn't need to operate a fleet of massive, nuclear powered supercarriers. But what was considered a fleet carrier in WWII and the 1950's would be considered a smaller carrier today. That said, one or two ships this size would be an absolute game changer for Australia. If one could be found, I wonder if say a USS Midway class carrier would be cheaper to refit, modernize, and recommission than building a new ship. Australia might even be able to obtain two carriers this way. Just a thought but with China's growing ambition and capability, Australia really needs to come up with an answer to that threat. Certainly her allies will do all they can but threats are growing around the world and allied Navies are going to need to expand across the board.
The RAN is expanding in other areas, there was a proposal to commission an America Class LHD for fix wing capability over modifying the Canberras but it didn't last long.
There is NO DOUBT Australia can have Aircraft carriers. In fact the LHDs we have now are larger than those old carriers. They have launch ramps but our silly navy wants to use them for rescue and amphibious means. The same design by Navantia (Juan Carlos) is used as a carrier launching Harriers ans soon F35Bs. As usual these days, the navey takes a limp wristed approach.
I was at garden Island and had a full tour. I wish, we had invested in a carrier. Instead of the Collins class Subs😢😢
Australia never operated a ' carrier battle group '. It operated predominantly an ASW carrier, as true carrier operations requires two carriers.
Wow, Australia was saved by aircraft carriers at the Battle of Coral sea; for her to have none sounds extremely dangerous.
I went to school with the daughter of one of the captains (late 1950's) and often wonder what happened to him. The name was Sherrit or Sherrat or something very similar. Would anybody happen to know what happened to this man?
You should be able to find a list of all of Melbourne's COs somewhere, maybe the AWM or Navy sites.
It would be better and cheaper for Australia to purchase a 3rd LHA solely dedicated to F35 use and keep Adelaide and Canberra as ambitious assault ships then to re-fit either for F35 use, I would love to see this happen but I doubt we will unfortunately unless we go down a similar route Turkey is with loyal wingman drones as the Air package...??
After hearing what happened to the Melbourne after was decommisioned. That makes me so angry.
@1:05 Didn't the British attack some of the Italian Fleet at port before Pearl Harbour?
Yes - at the Battle of Taranto on the night of 11-12 November 1940. The RN used 21 Swordfish torpedo-armed biplanes - see also my comments above about the attack on the Scharnhorst using the same model of biplanes
Both my Grandfathers were engineers during this war. One worked on the Churchill tank, the other on the Swordfish Bi-plane. 🤔@@petergraves2085
The same day, a German auxiliary raider captured the British merchant ship, SS Automedon. It was carrying Top Secret war plans for the British Far East. In short, preoccupied by the German in the Mediterranean & in Europe; the Brits would pretty much sacrifice whatever colonies it had in the Far East.
The German Captain recognized what he had & transferred them to the German Naval Attaché in Tokyo, forwarding the plans to Berlin. Berlin then forwarded the Top Secret plans back to the Japanese who used the knowledge in war planning for after Pearl Harbor.
I forgot to say great video