I keep my standard batteries in my Futaba 8FG and they seem to last pretty long to me. I also have a backup LIFE battery in my TX case just in case my regular battery runs out (usually because I forgot to charge my radio), which has only happened once in the last two or three years I think.
Thanks Bruce, I appreciate your testing! Thorough testing at that ;) I've accidentally insulted a lipo and been a bit shocked by the ferocity of the resulting reaction, its nice to know that the battery in my Tx is a bit more forgiving.
The problem with LiFe is the power density. Its heavier than a LiPo for the same power. The cells are a lower voltage too, but they make great RX batteries.
I've damaged a lipo by accidentally punctured one, and when I deliberately crashed Lotus T580 into the ground and once when I deliberately punctured one with a nail to show someone what can happen so they know they have to take care of them. I've had a couple go puffy and usually throw them away or pass them on to my acolyte Helicopter Rich. LIPOs are vacuum sealed, they puff up when air is allowed inside due to a break or flaw in the seal. Not sure it make a difference if charged or not.
I been using LiFe batteries for 3 years for all my transmitters and receivers. I only just replaced the transmitter battery a week ago after I left the Tx on in the case for a week and it fully discharged and got a bit puffy. It charged up but could take only about half the recommended 3A charge current. So the internal resistance was high. $10 to replace it.
I just ordered a LiFe pack for my receiver. This vid just gave me peace of mind. Its enough that my Losi Mt Xl is filled with gasoline. Don't want to add another fire hazard to the mix with lipos
Bruce is the battery was dead would the test be void because the battery can't hold charge or overcharge to cause a fire? Would you need it to hold a charge to create a fire especially when you whacked it?
Not sure if you still read comments. I’m new to rc but I’ve made a robot running on 6v. Can I use a 6.6v life battery to run it instead of a 7.4v lipo?
Since the point of Lipo is high voltage /fast discharge and unless you're driving a long distance module, why would your transmitter need anything but a battery that lasts for a full day? So, yes, I agree that a safer, longer lasting battery is the best choice for a local rc transmitter. Good video series!
something to consider is can the transmitter even support the high voltages of any lithium cell. especially an issue with 3 cell LIPOs. many transmitters have 5v voltage regulators for their onboard electronics and will be destroyed outright, or in danger of failing over time & heat.
A question from a Noob. I'm super new to RC and would like to know if there is any other way to charge a LiPo without one of those balance chargers. A 12v Adapter or the likes?
I've got a lipo pack in my car transmitter and have never had anything go wrong with it, but i will admit i dont let the voltage drop too low, and i balance charge it every 4th cycle.
I just threw out a puffy LiFe battery this morning, one cell had gone bad and it was puffed when I looked at it. The batteries in the 787 that were giving problems were Lithium Ion, I'm not sure of the exact similarities or differences between those and the LiFe batteries we are using.
I have 4 puffed lipo that I no longer use. What's the best way to send them out with a bang rather than just discharging them and putting in salt water? Want to have some fun with them before they get binned!
Hi ther its Tony here nice to know that LiFe battery's r daily safe.on that note I have a hitec flash 8 transmitter with a a 2s LiFe .My question is a full charg gives me a voltage of 6.7 volts,it doesent state in the manual the low voltage setting for it,my radio went off at 5.6 volts about 10 seconds later the transmitter had no signal is this a normal cut off or should it be lower.What r ur thoughts thanks Tony
life considered about 95% flat at 3v/cell. you want to set your bat low warning at 3.1v/cell (about 80% discharged. never let a life battery go below 2v/cell or you will kill it. 2.5v is absolute minimum safe. the voltage discharge is very stable until 80%+ discharge then it will nose dive very quickly, so as soon as it starts to drop to 3.1 and below change those batteries... hope that helps...
Most trucks such as Traxxas or losi don't have their products compatible for LiFe batteries. only NiMH or LiPo. sometimes NiCH also. are LiFe batteries stronger with the Electric force like a LiPo or are they like NiMH? can they have more mah in a smaller amount of room? can they work with a normal ESC like the Traxxas VXL-3s or XL-5 ? even the VXL-6s on the Xmaxx. idk about the MXL-6s on the Brushless E-revo & Brushless Emaxx. what are they properly designed for?
LIPO batteries are lighter for the same power output and generally have more power size for size. In a transmitter this isn't so critical, which is why a lot of folks opt for safer LIFE batteries in their radios, but use the more dangerous but more powerful and efficient LIPO batteries in their RC planes, helis and cars. It's quite rare for LIPOs to burst during use, it usually happens when charging (or accidentally punctured) - which is why you should never leave them charging unattended.
18650's in serial with balance conector and you get safety cut off included with decent ones. Way cheaper than the life packs if you are prepared to solder and up to 3000mah each now.
bruce the legend. touch wood i have not had one puff or explode on me yet. my problem with most of these videos is they almost always involve whacking shooting or setting fire to the lipo i have only seen one explode randomly on video. Life battery looks pretty solid though so ty for the test. are they more expensive? do they give the same power output?
+Planet Supermorph Depends on such. Flooded SLA are bad. So yes Life-po4 would be better to get. now AGM's are safer then Flooded by far. But wouldn't be as safe as Life-p04's, and it'd still weight a hefty amount. And you'd need twice as much SLA for a single amount of Life system. But for Life-po4. you need a charger specific for it and a way to balance the cells out evenly. SLA doesn't require such, But keep heed to not charging them to fast.
+Planet Supermorph Not really, but I think they are safe enough. But the thing here comes down to energy density. A higher power battery, generally speaking, will be more dangerous. (It simply contains more energy!) I'm no expert, but you'd likely want the LiFe batteries ... you will get a longer run time with them. Just make sure you keep them protected, so they can't be punctured or shorted out (use a fuse if you can!). Also, the SLA batteries are heavier.
Perhaps try over charging with a charger. Considering it is the electrolyte that is flammable in a lipo. I wonder what electrolyte the Li Fe uses. If it is the same it might suggest it could be just as dangerous if the battery internally reaches ignition temp of the electrolyte.
MANY people abuse their batteries or dont take care of them. Theres actual responsibility needed to take care of LIPO batteries and many people just dont take good care of them. from storage to down time after charging to fly, a few guidelines. If you dont take care of your own lipos youll spend more than you have to on replacements. Your own fault. Great video BRUCE
fife interesting. But is there some way with a puffed "lipo" I can tell when to stop using and dispose of ie how MUCH PUFF does one need to say its finished and throw away?
Can you do a lipo fire test with liquid coolant from a can? Im interrested to know that a can of cold fluid that is used to cool down electronics for testing for heating problems will do something to help estinguish or suppress a fire from a lipo.
***** use to love doing the tongue thingy with those little square 9 volt batteries, interesting to see what a 80 amp lipo would do to my tongue, I'm sure more then just a little tingle, ok I've learnt alot about lipo's not too, kids don't test one using your tongue, highly not recommended
***** So what's the lowest of lowest voltage will kill the Lipo battery? do you risk them catching on fire while on load and voltage drops to far down? I feel that I'm a bit paranoid about these batteries but reading alot of comments better be paranoid to be safe :)
I have a few LiPo batteries but just wondering should I get a few LiFe batteries? I have them switched to Deans instead of tamiya. Also, is the 9.9v LiFe faster than a 7.4v LiPo or 9.6v NM-Hd? Thanks
yes, 9.9v life batteries are faster than 7.4v lipo. I highly recommend LiFe batteries. In the video it wasn't the battery that burned, he was just being a knob and overloading it with power and the wires burned. I personally say LiFe over LiPo any day.
A J Wright I believe this wouldn't happen if he used a good LiFe battery made by vapex and not a £10 cheapey and used a correct charger. No one will over charge a battery like that unless they have an I.Q under 70. The fact is these batteries are 1,000,000× safer than lipos and better. If you use the right charger which is for LiFe batteries that automatically cuts off when they're fully charged you will not see this issue. This man is just being an idiot.
TomBuchan TL;DR: He's showing how HARD it is to make it explode. FullText: But he's not trying to be safe, he's trying to show that it's not dangerous. By using a cheap crappy battery and misusing it, he demonstrates that **even under extreme provocation** the device is reliable and doesn't burst into flames. He isn't an idiot at all he is performing what is called "destructive testing", i.e. Testing the failure mode of the battery. Finally, the most important factor is that it is in comparison to a LiPo -- had he performed the exact same test with a LiPo battery it would have caught fire and exploded.
Tom Have you seen the PUFFED batteries inside Mac Books? Apple makes customers buy new ones. So your logic says Apple must have used crap batteries because they filled with gas and went PUFF on older Mac models?
I wouldn't recommend it, but you might get a different result if you punctured a battery that actually had a charge? By the time you started hitting it, it was a melted short circuited mess and probably didn't have any more charge?
Bruce, it was fully probably discharged due to controlled shorting through those high resistance wires by the time you punctured it, hence no fire. From past experience, Li-Ion and Li-Po will "work" best when you fully charge them and then puncture all the cells with a metal object (nail works well).
I've got 2 lipos,when should I start to get worried? If they are puffed or all the time? They're not puffed and not over charged. Thanks for a great video!
Battery factories and labs often use water to put out Li battery fires. Most Li batteries contain no lithium metal and do not react with water. Damage to a cell can cause an internal short which will causes the battery to heat up. The temperature can quickly reach 500°C, at which point the cell will have started producing its own oxidizer and catch fire. Due to the latent heat of water, it can lower the temperature of the cell thus stopping the thermal event.
In the USA theres a device called a battery buddy, for cars. Its about the size of a big LiPo battery. It's for when your battery is dead, it lets you start the car and charge up your cars battery. I also have something where you connect one lead to a piece of metal on the cars engine and other lead to the cars battery and you can jump start your own car.
There is a video oif someone sawing a lifep04 battery open. It was not a pouch cell like those but a metal cylinder battery. He sawed the end off with a hack saw and it did not vent or explode. I don't recommend anyone doing that because your luck may vary. You would not want to inhale any toxic smoke or get badly burned if it vents. I have also seen a video of someone else smashing cell phone lithium ion batteries and they very quickly burst into flames. They also vented a lot of toxic smoke that is very bad for you.
In my opinion Sanyo Eneloop are the very best batteries for transmitters. Robust, low memory effect, low self discharge, not affected by storage. If you reflex-charge them, they last for years.
I have used the a123 lifepo4 cells for a few years in planes and cars now and have crashed, shorted them out charged and discharged them at high amps for 1000s of cycles and they are still working fine! The only time I managed to kill one was by overcharging a 2 cell on a 3 cell setting, but all that happened was the pack stopped working-no fire drama! I would say life is safer then lipo any day.
I am done with Hobby King Lifes. I learned a few lessons the hard way for experimenting with life packs. First, I lost a model when my Taranis lost reception due to low TX life battery low voltage. That was my fault for trusting the low battery warning. But then I think I correctly charged and used two life packs in a 60cc pilot rc sbach. One for the DA60 ignition and one to power the servos (not high voltage). After an 8 min first flight they were horribly puffed like pillows, but they didn't fail. I don't know how well they would keep working puffed like, but I am not willing to try. These are flat skinny blue receiver packs. I thought they would supply enough current for the servos. I think I'll go with a castle voltage regulator and tech aero ibec for the ignition.
Using water to put out lithium fires sounds counter intuitve, as raw lithium tends to heat up, flame and violently explode when in contact with water.... Your youtube video link above also didn't work for me.
So firstly the water was a nice idea, but a largely useless one. Pretty much nothing puts out a LiPo fire and it will burn under water. So throwing the water would be useless and I can't see you wanting to pick the battery up and throw it in the water with it spitting and throwing out poisonous gas (plus the wires got incredibly hot). The experiment itself wasn't much safer. Poking it and handling it with an unprotected finger whilst trying to make it explode along with picking it up right after smashing it with a lump of metal, again attempting to destroy it. I spent the entire video cringing. However that said a) its your finger so I don't give a shit or take it personally and b) it was an otherwise well done scientific look into it using real world scenarios. So in that regard well done and I still threw a like for those two reasons.
Actually the water is great idea. not just tossing battery in but if something else catches on fire as well. And even if battery had burst to flames, tossing it to over 2.5 Kg of water that have capacitance of 4181.9 J/(Kg*K) will barely rise temp of water by few decrees. (It's 1:35AM so I'm not going to do the math for now) I do agree that he might should have used protective clothing like welders cloves. btw the test battery was Lithium Ferrite (LiFe) not Lithium Polymer (LiPo)
One of the batteries was LiPo. Any of the batteries could have started to burn. It is not a good idea to directly connect two batteries with different voltage levels. The internal resistance is very low so the current can be really high. Very likely the LiPo was destroyed as well in this experiment.
That would indeed validate the testing with credibilty. Bruce needs to rerun the test with a charging device. DC to an individual cell cements Bruce's point, but I need more evidence before I trade in my batteries. Everyone loves a timelapse, y'know?
Puffing is actually normal for lifepo4 batteries, that is why manufacturers recomend to keep them compressed to also increase cycle life. Look into lifepo4 for solar there are many explanations
batchnerd Lipos do not contain lithium in metal form. Dropping a lipo in a large quantity of water is a recommended way of containing the reaction. It can help cool the other cells and prevent them from starting to react. It also absorbs the fumes. What you don't want to do is dump water on a lipo since a small amount of water will likely make the reaction worse. Sand can be bad for the same reason if it is damp which it usually is.
+Nick Gilbert Yes it would, as the extinguisher is made for that. Sand is fine too, but who carries sand around? Anything but water when it comes to electrical fires.
+That Guy With the Pointlessly Long Username That You Are Wasting Your Time Reading Right Now A lipo fire is not a electrical fire. It is a chemical fire. If the battery is connected to a charger, obviously the first thing to do is disconnect the charger from its power source. Certainly you don't want water near mains electricity.
Lipo is a very general term! The one RC calls LiPo is Lithium Cobalt Oxide based. liFe is also a type of LiPo, based obviously on lithium iron phosphate.
The problem with this test is that LiPo batteries only burst into flames while they are charged, you stated that the LiFe battery was dead so can't claim that Life batteries are safer if you are no testing them to the same standard.
That was a trip to watch! I like the hot-Hot-HOT @ 4+ minutes LOL and could not believe you were going to hammer on it OMG that was funny. Just a word to the wise "wear safety glasses please". Always godd videos.
Yup I've seen two LiFe battery packs bent in half during very bad crashes of model airplanes. No fire, no nothing. And, a few years ago, I destroyed a two cell 2300 Mah A123 battery by connecting a power supply to it, with the power supply set to 15 Volts. Came back, found black dust all over my workbench. And a ruptured A123 cell. All I had was a mess to clean up. A lot of my club members are going to those A123 cells for receiver power.
Poor that little battery pack. I had a crash of my heli with A123 Life batteries (I used 9 cells taken out from Dewalt power tools). After the crash one of the the battery cells put out a lot of nasty smoke, and some little fire. They are still dangerous I think.
TxRxPilot They are bigger not heavier. Actually they are about the same in weight per ah. And still would that little bit of extra space and weight make so much difference if they can make the aircraft a lot safer?
I don't agree FullFledged. Comparing two 1800 mah 3s, the LiFe weighs about about 6.8oz while the Lipo comes in at 5.3oz. LiFe are used in cars and trucks because they can take the abuse of jumps and rough terrain, Lipo in planes because they are lighter. Weight is critical in airplanes and copters.
Because LiFePO4 batteries don't quite have the energy density of previous Li-ion chemistries. But they have several advantages - as we just saw they are much safer. They can also be successfully trickle-charged (something that kills other Li-ion/Li-poly batteries), so expect to see LiFePO4 replace lead-acid for UPS's and wind/solar power.
why didnt you try a nail through the cells?
if I had a LiFe battery puff that much I would be worried regardless of whether it explodes or not
I keep my standard batteries in my Futaba 8FG and they seem to last pretty long to me. I also have a backup LIFE battery in my TX case just in case my regular battery runs out (usually because I forgot to charge my radio), which has only happened once in the last two or three years I think.
This is why we use LiFePO4 in combat robots. We've had a 4S LiFe 2300mAh in one our robots for over 3 years and it still holds up to 95% charge.
Thanks Bruce, I appreciate your testing! Thorough testing at that ;)
I've accidentally insulted a lipo and been a bit shocked by the ferocity of the resulting reaction, its nice to know that the battery in my Tx is a bit more forgiving.
The problem with LiFe is the power density. Its heavier than a LiPo for the same power. The cells are a lower voltage too, but they make great RX batteries.
I've damaged a lipo by accidentally punctured one, and when I deliberately crashed Lotus T580 into the ground and once when I deliberately punctured one with a nail to show someone what can happen so they know they have to take care of them. I've had a couple go puffy and usually throw them away or pass them on to my acolyte Helicopter Rich. LIPOs are vacuum sealed, they puff up when air is allowed inside due to a break or flaw in the seal. Not sure it make a difference if charged or not.
How can that battery possibly be flat, if it seems to be properly inflated? I just can't understand.
I think he means flat as in dead.
The Fringes r/woooosh
Aaron Fonseca no generic r/whoosh detected.
Bought that similar LiFe last week. Good to know my hands are safe. ;)
I been using LiFe batteries for 3 years for all my transmitters and receivers. I only just replaced the transmitter battery a week ago after I left the Tx on in the case for a week and it fully discharged and got a bit puffy. It charged up but could take only about half the recommended 3A charge current. So the internal resistance was high. $10 to replace it.
I just ordered a LiFe pack for my receiver. This vid just gave me peace of mind. Its enough that my Losi Mt Xl is filled with gasoline. Don't want to add another fire hazard to the mix with lipos
Bruce is the battery was dead would the test be void because the battery can't hold charge or overcharge to cause a fire? Would you need it to hold a charge to create a fire especially when you whacked it?
question! i have a lipo battery that seems filled with air.. between its shrinkwrap and its "body" should i discard it?
Not sure if you still read comments. I’m new to rc but I’ve made a robot running on 6v. Can I use a 6.6v life battery to run it instead of a 7.4v lipo?
For teens who want to move from nimh would you recommend lipo or life?
Since the point of Lipo is high voltage /fast discharge and unless you're driving a long distance module, why would your transmitter need anything but a battery that lasts for a full day?
So, yes, I agree that a safer, longer lasting battery is the best choice for a local rc transmitter.
Good video series!
something to consider is can the transmitter even support the high voltages of any lithium cell. especially an issue with 3 cell LIPOs. many transmitters have 5v voltage regulators for their onboard electronics and will be destroyed outright, or in danger of failing over time & heat.
Case by case, and technicians often don't know,
isnt the cell supposed to have a charge to burn like a lipo
Where can I get that liFe pack?
what are you planning to do with the bucket of water? Pouring it over burning lithium battery???
A question from a Noob. I'm super new to RC and would like to know if there is any other way to charge a LiPo without one of those balance chargers. A 12v Adapter or the likes?
Would you use LiFes in an RC model?
I've got a lipo pack in my car transmitter and have never had anything go wrong with it, but i will admit i dont let the voltage drop too low, and i balance charge it every 4th cycle.
I just threw out a puffy LiFe battery this morning, one cell had gone bad and it was puffed when I looked at it.
The batteries in the 787 that were giving problems were Lithium Ion, I'm not sure of the exact similarities or differences between those and the LiFe batteries we are using.
Now we know, thanks again Bruce for another informative video!
Can you charge a lifepo4 battery with a regular life battery charger or is it an entirely different algorithm?
I have 4 puffed lipo that I no longer use. What's the best way to send them out with a bang rather than just discharging them and putting in salt water? Want to have some fun with them before they get binned!
Haven't seen these before. What kind of charger do they need and how is the performance?
Hello has the li fi battery the same power as the li po?
Just had a thought, if your car battery dies, can you stick a lipo in it? Atleast until you get to the next town?
Hi ther its Tony here nice to know that LiFe battery's r daily safe.on that note I have a hitec flash 8 transmitter with a a 2s LiFe .My question is a full charg gives me a voltage of 6.7 volts,it doesent state in the manual the low voltage setting for it,my radio went off at 5.6 volts about 10 seconds later the transmitter had no signal is this a normal cut off or should it be lower.What r ur thoughts thanks Tony
life considered about 95% flat at 3v/cell. you want to set your bat low warning at 3.1v/cell (about 80% discharged. never let a life battery go below 2v/cell or you will kill it. 2.5v is absolute minimum safe. the voltage discharge is very stable until 80%+ discharge then it will nose dive very quickly, so as soon as it starts to drop to 3.1 and below change those batteries... hope that helps...
Hi Bruce, I use this battery in my Turnigy 9xr. I've set the low battery alarm to 7.5 V, is that a good value?
Wasn't it depleted? That may affect it's reactivity.
luckily the 9xr seems to power off below a point so it doesn't blow up the battery + its got an alarm
Most trucks such as Traxxas or losi don't have their products compatible for LiFe batteries. only NiMH or LiPo. sometimes NiCH
also. are LiFe batteries stronger with the Electric force like a LiPo or are they like NiMH? can they have more mah in a smaller amount of room?
can they work with a normal ESC like the Traxxas VXL-3s or XL-5 ? even the VXL-6s on the Xmaxx. idk about the MXL-6s on the Brushless E-revo & Brushless Emaxx. what are they properly designed for?
what about in water?
LIPO batteries are lighter for the same power output and generally have more power size for size. In a transmitter this isn't so critical, which is why a lot of folks opt for safer LIFE batteries in their radios, but use the more dangerous but more powerful and efficient LIPO batteries in their RC planes, helis and cars. It's quite rare for LIPOs to burst during use, it usually happens when charging (or accidentally punctured) - which is why you should never leave them charging unattended.
18650's in serial with balance conector and you get safety cut off included with decent ones. Way cheaper than the life packs if you are prepared to solder and up to 3000mah each now.
Can you charge LiFes while they are still plugged into your tx? If I unplug mine I lose my memory.
bruce the legend. touch wood i have not had one puff or explode on me yet. my problem with most of these videos is they almost always involve whacking shooting or setting fire to the lipo i have only seen one explode randomly on video. Life battery looks pretty solid though so ty for the test. are they more expensive? do they give the same power output?
Oh...thank you very much for the reply, I haven't flown with the 9xr but hopefully I'll do so today.
We're any flies hurts in this video?
hey Bruce, what do you think of the new Li-on craze?
are life-po4 batteries safer than sla batteries?
concidering getting one for a an electric bike kit i have
+Planet Supermorph Depends on such. Flooded SLA are bad. So yes Life-po4 would be better to get. now AGM's are safer then Flooded by far. But wouldn't be as safe as Life-p04's, and it'd still weight a hefty amount. And you'd need twice as much SLA for a single amount of Life system.
But for Life-po4. you need a charger specific for it and a way to balance the cells out evenly. SLA doesn't require such, But keep heed to not charging them to fast.
+Planet Supermorph
Not really, but I think they are safe enough.
But the thing here comes down to energy density. A higher power battery, generally speaking, will be more dangerous. (It simply contains more energy!)
I'm no expert, but you'd likely want the LiFe batteries ... you will get a longer run time with them.
Just make sure you keep them protected, so they can't be punctured or shorted out (use a fuse if you can!).
Also, the SLA batteries are heavier.
Perhaps try over charging with a charger. Considering it is the electrolyte that is flammable in a lipo. I wonder what electrolyte the Li Fe uses. If it is the same it might suggest it could be just as dangerous if the battery internally reaches ignition temp of the electrolyte.
I'm sticking with NiMH as well, but that's just because you can't charge a LiFE via the TX charger... Or.... Can you? Been wondering.
Wouldn't it be better to disassemble the pack and replace the bad cell?
MANY people abuse their batteries or dont take care of them. Theres actual responsibility needed to take care of LIPO batteries and many people just dont take good care of them. from storage to down time after charging to fly, a few guidelines. If you dont take care of your own lipos youll spend more than you have to on replacements. Your own fault. Great video BRUCE
fife interesting.
But is there some way with a puffed "lipo" I can tell when to stop using and dispose of ie how MUCH PUFF does one need to say its finished and throw away?
Can you do a lipo fire test with liquid coolant from a can? Im interrested to know that a can of cold fluid that is used to cool down electronics for testing for heating problems will do something to help estinguish or suppress a fire from a lipo.
How to dispose a puffed LiPo/LiFe?
Are lifes the same powerwise as lipos?
BRAND NEW LIPO Batteries have any charge in them? tried to find this answer with Google but no results
***** use to love doing the tongue thingy with those little square 9 volt batteries, interesting to see what a 80 amp lipo would do to my tongue, I'm sure more then just a little tingle, ok I've learnt alot about lipo's not too, kids don't test one using your tongue, highly not recommended
***** So what's the lowest of lowest voltage will kill the Lipo battery? do you risk them catching on fire while on load and voltage drops to far down? I feel that I'm a bit paranoid about these batteries but reading alot of comments better be paranoid to be safe :)
+Edwin Custo you dont understand ohms law? you better shouldnt work with electronics, try cooking or gardening instead
+gamerpaddy Power = Volts x Current
+gamerpaddy Ok another question once charged correctly for storage, will the battery hold the charge or will it slowly dissipate over time?
I have a few LiPo batteries but just wondering should I get a few LiFe batteries? I have them switched to Deans instead of tamiya. Also, is the 9.9v LiFe faster than a 7.4v LiPo or 9.6v NM-Hd? Thanks
yes, 9.9v life batteries are faster than 7.4v lipo. I highly recommend LiFe batteries. In the video it wasn't the battery that burned, he was just being a knob and overloading it with power and the wires burned. I personally say LiFe over LiPo any day.
TomBuchan To be fair, he was quite clear that the Batteries didn't burn, but that it was the insulation on the wires that had ignited.
A J Wright I believe this wouldn't happen if he used a good LiFe battery made by vapex and not a £10 cheapey and used a correct charger. No one will over charge a battery like that unless they have an I.Q under 70. The fact is these batteries are 1,000,000× safer than lipos and better. If you use the right charger which is for LiFe batteries that automatically cuts off when they're fully charged you will not see this issue. This man is just being an idiot.
TomBuchan TL;DR: He's showing how HARD it is to make it explode.
FullText: But he's not trying to be safe, he's trying to show that it's not dangerous. By using a cheap crappy battery and misusing it, he demonstrates that **even under extreme provocation** the device is reliable and doesn't burst into flames. He isn't an idiot at all he is performing what is called "destructive testing", i.e. Testing the failure mode of the battery. Finally, the most important factor is that it is in comparison to a LiPo -- had he performed the exact same test with a LiPo battery it would have caught fire and exploded.
Tom Have you seen the PUFFED batteries inside Mac Books? Apple makes customers buy new ones. So your logic says Apple must have used crap batteries because they filled with gas and went PUFF on older Mac models?
I wouldn't recommend it, but you might get a different result if you punctured a battery that actually had a charge? By the time you started hitting it, it was a melted short circuited mess and probably didn't have any more charge?
but mine where round cell with a hard case an connected to too many volts charging
Bruce, it was fully probably discharged due to controlled shorting through those high resistance wires by the time you punctured it, hence no fire. From past experience, Li-Ion and Li-Po will "work" best when you fully charge them and then puncture all the cells with a metal object (nail works well).
I've got 2 lipos,when should I start to get worried? If they are puffed or all the time? They're not puffed and not over charged. Thanks for a great video!
Battery factories and labs often use water to put out Li battery fires. Most Li batteries contain no lithium metal and do not react with water. Damage to a cell can cause an internal short which will causes the battery to heat up. The temperature can quickly reach 500°C, at which point the cell will have started producing its own oxidizer and catch fire. Due to the latent heat of water, it can lower the temperature of the cell thus stopping the thermal event.
Can you get a small enough one that is 11.1 for airsoft guns?
+Mishka the Fox they are 9.9 instead of 11.1 like li-po. And they are rather longer...
In the USA theres a device called a battery buddy, for cars. Its about the size of a big LiPo battery. It's for when your battery is dead, it lets you start the car and charge up your cars battery. I also have something where you connect one lead to a piece of metal on the cars engine and other lead to the cars battery and you can jump start your own car.
There is a video oif someone sawing a lifep04 battery open. It was not a pouch cell like those but a metal cylinder battery. He sawed the end off with a hack saw and it did not vent or explode. I don't recommend anyone doing that because your luck may vary. You would not want to inhale any toxic smoke or get badly burned if it vents.
I have also seen a video of someone else smashing cell phone lithium ion batteries and they very quickly burst into flames. They also vented a lot of toxic smoke that is very bad for you.
In my opinion Sanyo Eneloop are the very best batteries for transmitters. Robust, low memory effect, low self discharge, not affected by storage. If you reflex-charge them, they last for years.
Conclusion? Get a LiFe! (pun intended) :)
I have used the a123 lifepo4 cells for a few years in planes and cars now and have crashed, shorted them out charged and discharged them at high amps for 1000s of cycles and they are still working fine! The only time I managed to kill one was by overcharging a 2 cell on a 3 cell setting, but all that happened was the pack stopped working-no fire drama! I would say life is safer then lipo any day.
I am done with Hobby King Lifes. I learned a few lessons the hard way for experimenting with life packs. First, I lost a model when my Taranis lost reception due to low TX life battery low voltage. That was my fault for trusting the low battery warning. But then I think I correctly charged and used two life packs in a 60cc pilot rc sbach. One for the DA60 ignition and one to power the servos (not high voltage). After an 8 min first flight they were horribly puffed like pillows, but they didn't fail. I don't know how well they would keep working puffed like, but I am not willing to try. These are flat skinny blue receiver packs. I thought they would supply enough current for the servos. I think I'll go with a castle voltage regulator and tech aero ibec for the ignition.
Why did you not use sand as a fire extinguisher, as water is conductive and also will not adequately put out a lipo or LiFe fire.
Cj Taylor He's an expert at being silly.
Cj Taylor yeah, when he said bucket of water, I cringed. But then, it might have made for a bit of spectacle in itself. XD
Cj Taylor yeah, when he said bucket of water, I cringed. But then, it might have made for a bit of spectacle in itself. XD
wich is best for e-bike?
18650 or lipo or life?
Lipos
18650s are lipos.
thank you
thank you
I think 18650s are better since they're cheaper and easier to acquire, only patience and small amount of money is needed.
Why is a puffy cell dangerous? Why can you de-puff them and re-seal?
All puff, no bang :( ... Wait that is a good thing. I need to get some LiFe batteries. Can they output a similar C rate?
The C rate is no problem, if you can do with 30C, it's the capacity that's lower.
Using water to put out lithium fires sounds counter intuitve, as raw lithium tends to heat up, flame and violently explode when in contact with water.... Your youtube video link above also didn't work for me.
Never understood why people press on puffed batteries..
Bruce a logical follow-on from this would be a comparison of a LiFe v Li-Po, in a plane eg Rare Bear, say runtime over power output.
So firstly the water was a nice idea, but a largely useless one. Pretty much nothing puts out a LiPo fire and it will burn under water. So throwing the water would be useless and I can't see you wanting to pick the battery up and throw it in the water with it spitting and throwing out poisonous gas (plus the wires got incredibly hot). The experiment itself wasn't much safer. Poking it and handling it with an unprotected finger whilst trying to make it explode along with picking it up right after smashing it with a lump of metal, again attempting to destroy it. I spent the entire video cringing.
However that said a) its your finger so I don't give a shit or take it personally and b) it was an otherwise well done scientific look into it using real world scenarios. So in that regard well done and I still threw a like for those two reasons.
Actually the water is great idea. not just tossing battery in but if something else catches on fire as well. And even if battery had burst to flames, tossing it to over 2.5 Kg of water that have capacitance of 4181.9 J/(Kg*K) will barely rise temp of water by few decrees. (It's 1:35AM so I'm not going to do the math for now)
I do agree that he might should have used protective clothing like welders cloves.
btw the test battery was Lithium Ferrite (LiFe) not Lithium Polymer (LiPo)
One of the batteries was LiPo. Any of the batteries could have started to burn. It is not a good idea to directly connect two batteries with different voltage levels. The internal resistance is very low so the current can be really high. Very likely the LiPo was destroyed as well in this experiment.
Would have been interesting to instrument the set-up to see current draw & voltages:-)
That would indeed validate the testing with credibilty. Bruce needs to rerun the test with a charging device. DC to an individual cell cements Bruce's point, but I need more evidence before I trade in my batteries. Everyone loves a timelapse, y'know?
Great test! It seems there was still a warrenty on that. Maybe you can send it back to the factory.
Puffing is actually normal for lifepo4 batteries, that is why manufacturers recomend to keep them compressed to also increase cycle life. Look into lifepo4 for solar there are many explanations
Seeing as how Lithium is highly reactive with water I don't see point to having a bucket of water if there is a fire...
batchnerd Lipos do not contain lithium in metal form. Dropping a lipo in a large quantity of water is a recommended way of containing the reaction. It can help cool the other cells and prevent them from starting to react. It also absorbs the fumes. What you don't want to do is dump water on a lipo since a small amount of water will likely make the reaction worse. Sand can be bad for the same reason if it is damp which it usually is.
+press all the knobs Wouldn't a foam fire extinguisher still be better than water or sand for any reaction which can supply its own oxygen?
+Nick Gilbert Yes it would, as the extinguisher is made for that. Sand is fine too, but who carries sand around? Anything but water when it comes to electrical fires.
+That Guy With the Pointlessly Long Username That You Are Wasting Your Time Reading Right Now
A lipo fire is not a electrical fire. It is a chemical fire. If the battery is connected to a charger, obviously the first thing to do is disconnect the charger from its power source. Certainly you don't want water near mains electricity.
Bruce, master of the magic smoke!
cell voltage is lower for life. 3.3v per cell for life vs 3.7v for lipo.
those are nominal voltages.
I overcharged a pair of the cylinder style once... in my living room. A pop and some vented gas, but no smoke or fire.
Get a LiFe...........
Lipo is a very general term! The one RC calls LiPo is Lithium Cobalt Oxide based. liFe is also a type of LiPo, based obviously on lithium iron phosphate.
The problem with this test is that LiPo batteries only burst into flames while they are charged, you stated that the LiFe battery was dead so can't claim that Life batteries are safer if you are no testing them to the same standard.
Doesn't matter. you can even cut them in half while over charged and nothing will happen.
FullFledged2010 really I want to see a video I was thinking of switching to life but that would be cool to see.
Yes life is safe although not as powerful punch output as lipo...i will still go for life👍🏼
As for lipo accident do happen even how safe you are
safer, longer lasting but almost twice as heavy.
Last time I hit my lipo powered transmitter with a rusty piece of angle iron it didnt explode either.
We're any flies hurt in this movie?
That's pretty interesting. I still use basic alkalines or Nimh rechargeable cells in my TX.
That was a trip to watch! I like the hot-Hot-HOT @ 4+ minutes LOL and could not believe you were going to hammer on it OMG that was funny. Just a word to the wise "wear safety glasses please". Always godd videos.
Yup
I've seen two LiFe battery packs bent in half during very bad crashes of model airplanes. No fire, no nothing.
And, a few years ago, I destroyed a two cell 2300 Mah A123 battery by connecting a power supply to it, with the power supply set to 15 Volts. Came back, found black dust all over my workbench. And a ruptured A123 cell. All I had was a mess to clean up.
A lot of my club members are going to those A123 cells for receiver power.
You're the man Bruce!
Poor that little battery pack.
I had a crash of my heli with A123 Life batteries (I used 9 cells taken out from Dewalt power tools). After the crash one of the the battery cells put out a lot of nasty smoke, and some little fire. They are still dangerous I think.
Thanks, Bruce. Informative and entertaining.
If these are better, why dont we use them in aircraft too?
Good question!
Because they are heavier for the same size as a Lipo
TxRxPilot They are bigger not heavier. Actually they are about the same in weight per ah.
And still would that little bit of extra space and weight make so much difference if they can make the aircraft a lot safer?
I don't agree FullFledged. Comparing two 1800 mah 3s, the LiFe weighs about about 6.8oz while the Lipo comes in at 5.3oz. LiFe are used in cars and trucks because they can take the abuse of jumps and rough terrain, Lipo in planes because they are lighter. Weight is critical in airplanes and copters.
Because LiFePO4 batteries don't quite have the energy density of previous Li-ion chemistries. But they have several advantages - as we just saw they are much safer. They can also be successfully trickle-charged (something that kills other Li-ion/Li-poly batteries), so expect to see LiFePO4 replace lead-acid for UPS's and wind/solar power.
Nice but generally lifes are more expensive. But when they are becoming mainstream sure they drop the price.
Jānis Andersons
They are safer and more durable BUT they have significantly lower specific energy / energy density than LiPo batteries... (About half)
Im using in all my RC's with great results
you need thicker gauge wire to handle the amps , then watch it burn
Alkali metal/alklale compound are not the best things to dowse with water, a simple chemistry experiment proves that thoroughly.
+Wolf Punch That's what I was about to say. You use an ABC extinguisher on Lithium, it emits hydrogen in contact with water!
+foxy the pirate mlg fox
LOL it's like everything is known by the state of CA to be cancer causing XDDD