If Jesus established a church starting with his 12 apostles and hundreds and many disciples. Why follow someone who protested against that church. Are we a follower of Christ and His Church or a follower of Luther and his ideas.
@@g33omega86 Because its much easier to follow a truncated faith, or one believing that he himself can create a faith himself, that forms beautifully with his own values.
@RuslanKD @RuslanKD You've had multiple Catholics on here now (including Trent Horn) that have lots to say about Lutheran theology yet you have yet to ask on Dr. Jordan Cooper, Brian WolfMueller, or any other notable Lutheran theologians to speak to our side of these things. What's the deal?
@RuslanKD !!! Don't mistake this. I do love your content. However, with the Catholic and Orthodox panelist always laying into Luther and Lutherans as a whole, can we get an episode where a competent Lutheran pastor and theologian can have a seat at the table? Dr. Jordan B. Cooper @DrJordanBCooper Bryan Wolfmueller @PastorBryanWolfmueller Pastor Will Weedon @TheWordEndures
@@DanielMotesSEO he doesn’t have Christian of other Denomination on to debate them but more to learn for him and his audience. I think it’s great and respectful
" It is no good asking for a simple religion. After all , real things are not simple. They look simple, but they are not. A wooden table looks simple, but ask a scientist to explain its composition and you encounter a series of mysteries and complications that boggles the mind . Likewise, Christianity is not simple. God has designed it so that a child or the simplest person can understand it , but a genius can spend a lifetime trying to grasp the full implications of even a single Christian truth . " ~ C.S. Lewis
@@rhatala27 he has every right but it doesn't make it right. God isn't for sale and anything that is edifying to the church should be free but of course people should be able to donate because a laborer deserves his wages so don't muzzle an ox as it treads grain. This makes us fully dependent on the Lord for our provision and develops more faith. Putting a price on it ourselves shows a slight mistrust in what the Lord can do. We're all learning as we grow closer to the Lord. We all have much to learn so grace is needed and grace we must give. I don't condemn him for charging but my convictions steer me to do otherwise.
@@rhatala27 It's true tha the has every right to charge for his labor. But this is a debate that every christian both catholic and protestants have been waiting for with hope for enlightenment on why protestants hate Catholic so much. so It doesnt feel right to paywall this coz it goes against discipleship and teaching of God. Imagine the disciple saying pay me first before i share with you on the good news.. Nah nah..
Here is how I connected the dots as a Protestant coming into the Catholic Church: we read from the scriptures that “being saved” is not just a one time all-is-good deal. You make the decision to become a follower of Christ. But, you are not yet fully like Christ. He has given Christians the Holy Spirit to help us on the journey of sanctification, becoming more and more like Christ, and to help keep us in the faith that we would REMAIN saved at the hour of our death. We read that when we die-when Christians die-all of our works will pass through fire. What is build of wood, hay and stubble will be burned up. While what is made of precious stones will survive the fire and go with you on the other side of this fire. I personally made the connection that, 1) that fire was purgatory, purging Christians of anything that cannot pass through that fire to the other side, and 2) the things that we do on this side of eternity to help form the character of Christ in us, to form virtue and to build our lives with precious stones that will pass through the fire, THOSE are indulgences in the sense that they are lessening the things made of wood, hay and stubble in our lives that meet the fire of God’s holy and good love. Reading your Bible, praying, doing good works and works of penance, all of those things and what the Catholic Church calls gaining an indulgence are, the way I word it, proven ways to help change the content of your building from things that won’t last into the things that will last into eternity. I already had a grid for eternal rewards, sanctification on this side of eternity (before death), and spiritual disciplines before coming into the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has all of those things and in fullness. To use an example from the video, the murderer who gives their life to Christ has confessed their sins to be in a state of grace, the eternal consequence of separation from God taken care of through Christ’s sacrifice. However, there is still the inner character of the person that needs reform and the temporal effects of his past misdeeds that can have an affect on himself and those touched by those misdeeds/sins. Doing spiritual disciplines and serving others helps to change all the parts of their heart, to change their attachments from things that will pass away to God and eternal things, doing the will of God and not our own ways that lead to destruction. The Catholic Church has the authoritative teaching to say “these are proven to help reform your nature into that which will pass through the fires with you into eternity with God.”
@@Christusvinciit’s a bunch of foolishness Praying to dead people they don’t know. One minute they are in heaven and then they think some are in purgatory Have no idea what they talking about no clue
@@Christusvinci it isn’t in the sense of Catholicism being the defining fellowship and definitive house for worship. They had no pope, nor is there any mention of intercessory prayers to the martyrs. “Church” in the New Testament simply meant the “assembly” of God through Christ, as well as the first established assemblies were also in several ways divided-that’s the whole point of Paul’s letters to each church regarding their wayward teachings or their views of works etc. and also the point of each church in revelation. So to say one church is the definitive apostle’s church, when even the apostles had disagreements like Paul did with Peter in Galatians- isn’t biblical.
@Nutterbutter123 boy someone doesn't know church history, what do you think, in the bible is "breaking of the bread is"? What do you think made Nero justify the martyrdom of peter and Paul amongst other Christians? What do you think the table in the recent archeological finding in Megiddo was for,? What Made you think that disagreements meant having different doctrines?@ 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣Prots. You don't know and don't want to learn
@@TriciaPerry-mz7tc that's what happens when you are not humble enough to understand the scripture, I am guessing Jesus Christ was talking to "dead people" on the mount of transfiguration. And someone doesn't know that purgatory in there in the bible? 😔😔😔 Prots!
I’m a Protestant non denominational believer and I regularly watch Voice of reason videos! He’s one of my favorite channels. I also love Shameless popery and Trent Horn.
When I first came upon the voice of reason, I thought this man’s well spoken and put together, he must have a lot of followers. After I watched the video I looked at his subscribers and he only had 48.7k subscribers. Glad to see people are finally giving him the respect he deserves.
All will come to the fullness of truth. Jesus Christ is found in the sacraments of his Church which he has preserved for 2,000 years. The gates of Hades did not prevail against it and will not. I was a protestant until I realized that the Eucharist is literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Then it didn’t take long for me to realize I was wrong all along. I am so grateful for the Holy Spirit leading me to all truth and bringing me home to the true Church. Amen 🙏 Come home brothers and sisters, much love ❤️
@@breezecsgo7118 so can you tell me the threshold for the gates prevailed over the church? Like how do we know when that’s happened? No kingdom divided shall stand, yet how many times has division happened? So again, what is threshold for the church being overcome? Unless you can clearly say, it’s just an arbitrary goal post you are using to wield an authority that is level with scripture… yet it never will be.
@@kaffakid You are right to say that division, error, sin has all happened throughout the history of Christianity. Yet the Church has always overcome these and stands as a visible body of Christ on Earth. Divisions and heresies has never separated the true Church and the continuous teachings and traditions of the Apostles and Early Church Fathers are still valid today which is evidence that the Catholic Church remains true throughout the ages by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. The same cannot be said for protestant teachings as they have no continuity with what the Early Church Fathers believed and taught. So yes, the gates of hades did not prevail and will not prevail against the Church. The truth will always prevail and the Church is the pillar and support of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15). Also if you haven’t done so, I urge you brother, to learn more about the teachings of the Early Christians and see for yourself what they believed about the Church and the Eucharist. Peace and grace be with you from our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen 🙏
@@breezecsgo7118 this sort of pedigree you assign yourself when we were both bought by the same blood makes no sense. I urge YOU brother to not succumb to pride. ❤️
Thank you Ruslan for bringing Catholic Apologists to your page! I hope you continue to bring different sects of Christianity so that we can continue to learn what they actually teach and have a constructive conversation about it.
@ Bro you just have the Bible because of us, by the way our church fathers had been teached and instructed by the apostles. So it’s bold to tell us that we get the Bible wrong
He quoted Hebrews, what about Hebrews 10:17 referring to this single offering of Christ perfecting for all time those who are being sanctified: "then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
In his letter to Jerome, Augustine of Hippo emphasizes the unique authority of canonical Scriptures compared to other writings: "I have learned to hold the Scriptures alone inerrant; therefore, if I find anything in those Scriptures that seems contrary to truth, I will assume either the text is corrupt, the translator erred, or I have not understood." Keep the scripture over bad traditions, saint
Does it also perfect the people who suffer from addiction even after getting baptized? If God's forgiveness and forgetting of our sins worked like you're presenting it, all baptized people would be physically immortal/baptism would have same effect as resurrection. But don't listen to me - go do your own research. Go read the Church Fathers to see what the Church believed in from it's beginning.
@@Zibit21 Nobody brought up baptism. Hebrews is referring to the sacrifice of Christ, not baptism. Baptism is not the turning point in someone's life, spiritual regeneration is (being born again as Jesus says in John 3). Baptism symbolizes the washing away of your sins and your spiritual resurrection with Christ. Question: Do you think Jesus was made perfect by baptism? No, he was already sinless. However, it was a sacrement and pattern established for His followers. And yes, a truly saved person will begin to see victory over sin and additions. All christians wrestle with sin this side of eternity, but if you never see victory over sin, you have no reason to think you are a christian. There will be fruit. idk where you get this "baptism fixes everything" theology from. No church father ever held that baptism could grant immortality.
@@Zibit21it’s a process of sanctification. Even Paul spoke of the warring within himself of that of the Spirit and that of the flesh in Romans. It’s not about being perfect, it’s about a process of being perfectED.
@@Xavier-ww9zySaint Augustine did not believe in sola scriptura. Even if he did, he believed in purgatory, penance, baptismal regeneration, true presence of the Eucharist, etc… So they are all Biblical.
NO SIR , LUTHER'S THESIS #71 WAS NOT SUPPORTING INDULGENCES. LISTEN TO WHAT LUTHER WAS SAYING: Martin Luther’s 71st Thesis-“Let him who speaks against the truth concerning papal indulgences be anathema and accursed”-is not a defense of indulgences but a condemnation of those who distort the truth about them. Luther critiques the misuse of indulgences and asserts that any teaching contrary to the gospel’s truth, including the false promises tied to indulgences, should be condemned. This thesis underscores his call for reform and his rejection of indulgences as a means of salvation.
Thank you!! I just said this and was looking for someone else who knew the truth about what Luther thought!! This gentleman is twisting the 95 thesis’s.
THANK YOU! Yes i was gonna type the same thing. Not only does 71 state that, but there are multiple thesis that clarify Luther's stance. 34, 72, and 76 just to name a few.
Ssshhh 🤫 you’re gonna break VOR’s narrative. Bro already has a lot of pride by thinking he’s superior to everyone else and condemning non Catholics to hell and saying their faith in Jesus is invalid. Bro should change his name to “Voice of Pride” if anything 😂
Wait i dont get it, are you saying that Luther beleived indulgences were correct but were just missued? Or that he outright rejected them?. Cus the quote is "He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!". This is from what i see on the internet. The statement would read that apostolic pardons are true, and anyone who speaks against it is anathema.
11:18 i've read this chapter over and over. where is Paul saying that God repays you for the good or bad you do? paul emphasizes that its not him but Jesus who built the foundation and that he just plants the seeds and apollos waters it but neither make it grow only God. then goes on to explain that Jesus is the foundation on which to build the building on , and the work you do will show as it is tested. if what you build survives you will be rewarded for it but if not you are still saved. In short the work we do for the kingdom does have its reward for those who built on the foundation (Jesus) with good material. but it doesnt punish those who do not, insttead it says they're saved. and he goes on to tell ppl to stop boasting about human leaders. none of it seems to give credence to indulgences.... in fact paul specifically credits God FIRST in what he does. God is the one who sent him God is the one who made the seed they planted and watered grow, God is the one who made the field and the foundation by which the building is built on and surely the work people put in is rewarded but theres no mention of a temporal reward or celestial one.....
Also I don’t think Alex did a good job describing indulgences. Indulgences by the way are just prayer, fasting and almsgiving. These three that Jesus commands us to do serve to detach us from this world. They also serve to heal the damages caused by sin, because even though our sins are absolved by the priest in reconciliation, we still may have damaged others and or ourselves(I.e. addiction or broken relationships). Indulgences transform our spiritual temple(which the foundation is Christ) from straw into Gold(which means less time in purgatory) and help to lead others into that same end.
Saint Paul is making it clear here that Christ is the foundation of our temple. He is also making it clear here that we will be judged based off our works we contributed. St. Paul therefore uses an analogy dealing with fire testing a descending order of materials in terms of strength. Fire is constantly used as judgment, but is also used as a refining agent(Isaiah 4:4; Zechariah 13:9; and many more). Therefore as Christ is the foundation, we still need to build upon our building with good resources, which represents our good deeds and spiritual life. Gold will most definitely survive the fire, while you are most definitely risking it with straw. And Gold may take less time to purify than “precious stones.” But as Saint Paul says, even that man will be saved, by only as through fire. As C.S. Lewis says, our souls demand purgatory. We leave this life with venial sins and the inclination to sin(concupiscence) and so we need to be purified in the fire so we may make it to heaven, because nothing unclean may enter heaven(Revelation 21:22). Therefore let us each build our temples up with the gold of God’s grace, so that we may survive the fires of his justice.
Scripture says: "If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" That is what he was emphasizing to be temporal punishment due after one's death, even for those who are saved: to suffer loss as through fire.
Speaking as a Lutheran. There's a reason the 95 Thesis aren't part of our confessional documents. And in our confessional documents, it specifically says that we do not abolish the regular way in which priests are called to the ministry, nor have we abolished Private Confession, or the Mass. Not that this guy is necessarily misrepresenting us, but sometimes Catholic Apoligists like to leave out some of these important details.
12:07 "If you read Scripture 15 minutes a day that grants you a partial indulgence." Where in the Bible does it say that? Where do they get this stuff?😮
@@Jacques.Smith_ They were given the power to bind and loose. I can ask you were in the Bible does it refer to as "Bible Alone?' the whole crux of the matter is that you deny that Jesus established a Church. You who deny that you are free to do as you wish will learn at a later date.
@gabepettinicchio7454 Let me tell you what the "whole crux of the matter" actually is... you, being unable to refute the verse I quoted. I provided contex related to title and what you got from that, is... oh he denies Jesus raised the church. Actually, I don't and you have failed to address the topic at hand twice.
If the premise of the Reformation was to reform the Catholic church, then recognize the reformation has been answered. And thus, you should be Catholic. If the premise of the Reformation was to create something ENTIRELY NEW away from the Catholic church, then you're purposefully dividing the body of Christ which should be rejected. And thus, you should be Catholic. "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." Nicene Creed.
Mutiple seperate churches are seen described in galatians. Paul advises those excomunicated to go tp a different church so that things wpudlnt get hrated. Being excominicated in most cases has nothing to do with serious sin, but people disagreeing and not obeying. They are advised to go to another church. We know that he is talkibg about excomincated people because it is the same language as philemon. In your view someome excomincated is banned from all chruches. The reason for excomincation os different. Ots so you are not going to the same church as the spouse you cheatwd on etc.its for peoples protection. And to keep them away from thier vice "so that they may be saved".
Which is very problematic in and of itself, as it fragments the faith into countlessly varied (and oftentimes contradictory) individual opinions rather than preserving the unity and integrity of the deposit of faith. It is the Church which is the pillar and bulwark of truth, not each person interpreting it individually.
“In the Greek, a single word is used for “judgment seat” in Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10-the word is bema. A bema was a raised platform on which judges sat to view athletic games. Their job was to make sure contestants followed the rules and to present awards to the victors (see 1 Corinthians 9:24-27). The bema was never a place to reprimand the athletes or to punish them in any way. It was a place of testing and reward. In the same way, the bema of Christ will not be a place of condemnation or censure.”
He can distinguish between “eternal punishment” and “temporal punishment” all he wants, it isn’t taught in God’s Word. And if there is ANY punishment for me to endure then Jesus’ words from the cross, “it is finished,” weren’t true. Jesus bore the full penalty for the sins of his people. He drank God’s wrath down to the very dregs. This man’s theology at its base is an attack on the sufficiency of Christ for salvation. Homeboy needs to read Galatians.
Protestants should know these things about Luther. Roman Catholics should have a better understanding of what Luther was aiming for when he wanted the church to reform.
Luther's 71st thesis was not an endorsement of indulges. This man is twisting Luther's words. In reality, he said "Let thise who oppose *the truth concerning indulgences* be accursed." He was anathemetizing those who opposed the truth about indulgences (i.e., their danger and harmfulness).
The term "concerning" doesn't exist in the original text. And Luther made commentary on the 71st article where he clearly takes the position that indulgences must be accepted on pain of anathema.
Sirach 3: 30 As water extinguishes a blazing fire, so almsgiving atones for sin. Luke 11: 41 But give as alms those things that are within, and behold, everything is clean for you.
@edward1412 Luke 21: 1 Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, 2 and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. 3 And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. 4 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.” "But give as alms those things that are within." Luke 11:41. That woman gave what was within.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NASB): "For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident. For the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire." 🕊
@mmfin95 Hello, I hope you are well. I can understand why you might believe that, especially if it’s what has been taught. However, when I read the Word of God, it states that believers in Christ go directly to Heaven upon death, where Jesus and God are together. This is affirmed in 2 Corinthians 5:8, which says: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” At the Judgment Seat of Christ (not to be confused with condemnation), all our works will be evaluated. Bad works are burned away, while good works result in rewards that we joyfully give back to God in eternal service. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is secured through faith in Jesus Christ, but it reflects the fruit of our lives. 2 Corinthians 5:10 (ESV): “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” Romans 14:10-12 (ESV): “For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God... So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.” While some believe in purgatory as a process of purification, the Bible assures us that Christ’s sacrifice is complete and sufficient to cleanse us from all sin. Through His work on the cross, we are made righteous before God: 2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB): “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Because of Christ, we are no longer at enmity with God but at peace with Him: Romans 5:1 (NASB): “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Salvation is not about our ability to purify ourselves but about trusting in the finished work of Christ, who declared, “It is finished!” (John 19:30). Additionally, we are reassured that through faith in Jesus, we can stand confidently before God: “There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 8:1, NASB) “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14, NASB) God bless you and keep you and your family. Love, Joy, Peace, Jonathan
@@brightelskerfoundation And yet the verse that you quoted (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) says that yes you will be saved, ''but only as through fire''. So by claiming that (2 Corinthians 5:8) refutes purgatory, you have to assume that 1- the process of being ''present with the Lord'' instantaneously follows being ''absent from the body'', something that the verse does not imply and 2- You also have to assume that the after life (purgatory, heaven, hell, etc) are temporal process in the same sense that life on Earth is a temporal process, again something not specified in the Bible.
@@dkjazzz Again, you are assuming the same temporality in heaven as on Earth and that purgatory must be a temporal process... You are also assuming that the thief on the cros is the norm whereas this example shows Jesus' prerogative as God.
God is great and consistent, He keeps His promises. Especially when it comes to His elect. How have all the schisms worked out for the schismatics? 20,000 to 50,000 as per some stats!!!!!
Protestantism is kinda the definition of sowing division there was no denominations before the Protestant reformation if all several hundred Protestant denominations joined as one that would be a huge step forward to uniting the church
Have you seen any unity in protestantism ever? Sowing union with Christ is preaching the truth of the only faith and Church Christ has left us with. The others are the division, by definition.
The Catholic guy who sounds like Rocky, is basically saying that our FULL salvation is works plus grace based rather than grace alone based. This is the crux of the Reformation. Martin Luther correctly pointed out after reading, studying, & meditating through the book ok of Galatians, that believers are fully saved by Grace ALONE, Faith ALONE , & Christ ALONE , and nothing else. Further, Martin went on to say that the Bible is the supreme authority, (Scripture alone) in these matters and not the Catholic church or her man made traditions, like indulgences. And that these are to the glory of God lone, and not to be credited to any man made institution. In essence the 5 solas.
@@jonathangrande9516 wait, I only need one of those solas to be saved? Can I choose which one? They aren’t all needed together, right? Because they are all ALONES?
James is clear that faith without works is dead. That is why Martin wanted to drop it. Only place in the bible the words faith and alone go together is to specifically say "not by faith alone"
@@juangutierrez1883 Orthodoxy does not believe in purgatory or papal authority. They consider themselves the "true church" and the RCC as the first protestant one.
What it sounds like to me is that the Cross and the sacrifice of Jesus was only a partial salvation and the rest us up to our good works to save ourselves from purgatory which is a kind of less harsh hell for believers to suffer the consequences of sin. I don’t know where I’m the scripture it ever references that we should focus on living good lives to reparare our sins. It’s an extra step that Jesus never mentioned.
So you don’t have to follow the commandments? Don’t they help you live a good life? You don’t have to develop your virtues? You say “I believe Jesus is Lord” and that is all? you don’t have to pray, put God above all, do His will, etc etc.
Indulgences and purgatory is about sanctification not salvation, as the people in purgatory are all going to heaven. To give an analogy. Purgatory is the waiting room for heaven. The gate to heaven is slim, being fat is being filled with sin. Those who have worked to get slim (be sanctified) before entering purgatory can easily slip through the narrow gate. But those who are overweight must fast and lose their weight before they can pass through. Eventually all will enter, it will just take different amount of time depending on how much fat (sin) you carry with you.
Exactly that's what I say, why the 10 commandments then. Or why after he died for our sins did God not bring heaven on earth(the new Jerusalem) or take everyone into heaven,why are we still here? It's because we have to prove ourselves worthy of heaven. Remember lucifer saw God in all his glory and new he was omnipotent and yet he still revolted and God others to listen. We go to purgatory to remove the stain of sin because nothing impure can enter heaven. Because of the what the fallen angels did. And Fyi the pains in purgatory is that of Hell. 1corinthians 3 11-16 one of several versus in the bible that pertains to purgatory.
@@ednaron1229 not to mention that there were already Churches before the New Testament. How was the early Church made up of "Bible believing" Christians when there wasn't even a letter of new testament scripture? Sounds to me like the earliest Christians were "tradition alone" instead of scripture alone.
@@rlhicks1 the Churches already existed before the letters. And yes they had the Old Testament,but what they believed about Christ and the New Covenant wasn't written down when they were formed.
This has to be one of your best interviews because I share in the sentiment that I want it to be free now. Kinda pissed but I trust that you are doing what you think is best. Also, if this helps you keep pumping out this quality of content I’m all for it. Keep up the good work, but dang you left me hanging. lol.
I appreciate Voice of Reason defending the traditional view of purgatory instead of the modern tendency to make it about purification only rather than punishment. My biggest concern with Catholic apologetics is a tendency to want to defend the weakest version of a doctrine possible because it is easier to defend.
@ it’s not heretical, Jesus said those who speak blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either “in the next life, nor in the life to come” implying some sins will be forgiven in this life and some in the world to come. He also said: “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. this verse in context has eschatological connotations, and hell is eternal so he is not referring to hell as the punishment he is referring to is temporary. Most clearly, St. Paul speaks of purgatory like this: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15. He is referring to the particular judgement in this context as well. Again the loss he is here referring to is not eternal so it is not hell he is speaking of, yet it is also not talking about a man going straight to heaven, since those in heaven do not suffer. That is where purgatory comes from, it is also mentioned by the ECFs.
@@DrewH-u9f Yes it was, one sacrifice for ALL SIN, else you don't believe Jesus covered all sin, its a belief in works righteousness, that your works determine your place. And Polycarp refuted it with Scripture.
Sheeeesh... imagine thinking Jesus' blood isn't enough to save us from our sin... how can they even claim to be Christian when they dont believe Jesus is enough. Indulgance is theft. We give to the church because we believe in the gospel and want to help its spread, and believe all our gains belong to God, but NOT because it will purge our sins. The concept of sin not being forgiven on the cross, such as "temporal sin" is not Biblical and flat out ridiculous. You either believe Jesus is enough or not.
You are going to heaven. That's what he just said. Protestants and catholic both believe that there is a process of sanctification before entering heaven ( because free will) the difference and question is if there's temporal purgation after death? Just because you are forgiven for your sins doesn't mean there isn't consequences and purging before entering into heaven. So in other words, if you are in purgatory it's because Jesus paid for your purgation. It's because your going to heaven.
He contradicts himself so much. If Jesus paid for my eternal sins and those are forgiven, then if I die I still have to pay for them? So then Jesus didn't pay for my sins, he wasn't enough, based on what he stated.
Jesus gave us the way for us to follow. We pick up our cross & follow him. It requires effort & sacrifice on our part. He made forgiveness of our sins possible through the process of our cooperation with God’s Grace. We need to have true faith working in love, and try our best to turn away from sin. We’re going to fall so Jesus gave us the Church & all the sacraments to help us
@@ItsAndy__ if you admit that we will not have any temptation to sin when we’re in heaven, you must also admit that from now until we get into heaven, SOMETHING happens to us so that we have no inclination toward sin anymore. We call that purgatory.
Let me get this straight. Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, but there are some penalties we still have to pay? Indulgences seem to go against the word of God, which says that God desires obedience and not sacrifice. What amount of praying or Bible reading, however beneficial to my walk with God, could ever come close to paying even a small portion of the wages of death I am due? Only the blood of Jesus is sufficient, and those who think they can contribute even a little to lessening their "guilt," whether eternal or temporal, do not understand the difference between the holiness of Christ and our depravity. This conversation just makes me hate indulgences even more. At least before this, I thought it was just a way for money-grubbing priests to pad their coffers. Now, I realize it's a systemic misunderstanding of the cross.
I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church from birth till I was 21 yrs of age...my Junior yr in college I switched to the Catholic Church. I have a Catholic Bible and there are 7 more Books in that Bible compared to the Protestant. I was told that Martin Luther WANTED to throw out the Book of Revelation with the other 7 he had thrown out...how it was allowed to remain in the final Protestant Bible is probably a miracle.
That Great you went from Southern Baptist to Catholic!!!! As a Baptist what made you want to look into the Catholic church ? Was it because of all the negative anti Catholic stuff from Baptist?
I saw this guy a few months back in a video where he called out Ruslan saying he didn't know church history. I thought that wasn't a fair critique said in good faith at the time, so to see his face on a Ruslan video of them in studio together was surprising to say the least. But this is why I love Ruslan. He's fair, respectful, and truly open to dialogue with Catholics and Orthodox folks, which is good because I feel like most of our disagreements are more so misunderstandings than anything. The Bible says not to quarrel over debatable matters and yet I see so many Christians saying their denomination is the "one true faith" or the "one true church" - we are all Christians and overwhelmingly agree on the core aspects of the faith and belief in Jesus and we shouldn't overlook that. P.S. Ruslan, if you're reading this - I got your leadership planner back in October and it has done wonders for my life on a daily basis. I was in the market for a journal and the way you structured yours was just perfect for my needs, so thank you bro. -Thomas
@@TRINITY-626 Do you think praying to Mary or other saints is a small matter? Do you see any Godly person in the Bible praying to any person besides God? Go read passages such as Isaiah 19:3 or 8:19. The whole Bible teaches to pray to God directly as Jesus also taught.
“Concerning” is not in the Latin original of the 95 theses. It’s something more akin to “truth of”. Luther clarified thesis 71 in his 1518 Explanation of the 95 Theses: For although the bestowing of indulgences is a small matter compared to the grace of God and in contrast to the loud bellowing of those who preach them, nevertheless he who would raise his voice against it acts arrogantly against [papal] authority. Therefore he deserves to be cursed, since ecclesiastical obedience to the pope is so much more admirable when he gives up his own feeling in lesser things and humbles himself.
The truth is that indulgences, or papal pardons, are true. Luther's argument wasn't against indulgences, but against the attachment of them to good deeds in the form of money or tithes. Anathemas are serious business, you can't tag an anathema to a "truth" without in the same line explaining what that truth is, unless it's just obvious that the referred "truth" is the obvious one that everyone at the time knew, that indulgences are a thing, as opposed to not being a thing: therefore being accursed those that claim they're not what they're said to be.
Because indulgences are an extra biblical man made addition. Paul is not God so couldn’t see into the future to know this would be a thing, and therefore warn against it. In the same way, the Pope, and most Marian doctrines they’re extra biblical.
@@AnnalyFaith "Because indulgences are an extra biblical man made addition." Everything that gives rise to the doctrine is biblical, so that sort of proves you wrong, doesn't it? I guess what you're saying is that we shouldn't do theology at all? I don't see that in the Bible. I do see a teaching Church, an authoritative Church, though. I see nothing that says anything at all about you, so I figure you have no authority whatsoever to teach contrary to the Church.
I looked it up. Here's what I found: 71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolical pardons, be anathema and cursed. This reminds me of Scripture in John 20:23 "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."
I see people here say that voice of reason is contradictory I don’t agree. I am a Protestant, however what he says makes complete sense in his paradigm. I will say what he said I understood how he got there. He lost me at his talk about purgatory.
I appreciate the cordial nature of VoR. I watched his debate with Dr. James White, he did good but still has room to grow. I've missed out on some of his content since. But glad to see he's still spreading the gospel.
He said the ‘church’ says the indulgences pay for those in purgatory. Because the RC church teaches that the Pope (a mere man) has authority over the Bible whereas protestants believe the Bible, God’s Word, is the ultimate authority.
The church has authority as does the bible. We know this because it was the church that validated the bible which are the words of men. Jesus did not write a book he established a church. The Father revealed the truth to Peter via the Holy Spirit, not a book. Christianity existed long before the Gospel. Your obsession with the Bible is idolatry.
"He said the ‘church’ says the indulgences pay for those in purgatory." He did not say that. "Because the RC church teaches that the Pope (a mere man) has authority over the Bible whereas protestants believe the Bible, God’s Word, is the ultimate authority." Both statements are wrong as written.
Reading my bible and praying for 15 minutes a day reduces the burden of the consequences I experience when I die? And this is taught in scripture? It's such teachings that give Protestants the perspective that Catholics believe in salvation by faith PLUS works.
It almost sounds like to me someone isn't accepting of the full forgiveness of christ. If you have been forgiven of sins that is sins here and now cause where else would it be. We only sin now. This also sounds like we are working for our salvation and complete forgiveness..... Which is absurd.
@richyburnett that would be your decision to put your faith in Jesus. We can't be saved by anything we do in our own power. Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast".
You get forgiveness and an opportunity to follow Jesus and get to heaven…. but you still pay reparations….first by stopping your sinning, and by praying/fasting/almsgiving/suffering well. Like….you break my window in my home and you say “sorry” and I forgive you….then you pay for my new window.
Romans 8:1KJV [1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:9 KJV [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. How do we go to purgatory if there is no condemnation for us who live after the Spirit, because verse 9 says the Holy Spirit dwells within us therefore we are not comdemned? Not trying to bash anyone, but this is the Word I'm not adding anything if something contradicts the Word we need to bring these things into question.
@@charlesjoyce982 Brother or Sister if when we read Romans 2 we see in verses 6 and 7 it says the Lord will render everyone according to his deeds. For the believers eternal life and glory and them that do not believe and obey it is hell. I don't see the point you are making, in fact this further strengthens the case that there is no judgement in regards to punishment to the believer that walked with Christ by His precious Holy Spirit.
These catholic arguments only worked when they had the monopoly in truth and were able to punish skepticism even when they defied now common biblical knowledge.
If the Church was established by Christ, and if He promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church, and if He promised to be with us until the end, and if He promised the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, and if He gave to Peter the keys of the kingdom, and if He gave to Peter and the Apostles the power to bind and loose, what 'knowledge' are you referring to which nullifies God's Word?
Revelation somewhere towards the end: "Nothing unclean enters Heaven" 1st John 3 (I think): There are sins which do not lead to the death of the soul." So if you died with sin that did not lead to the death of the soul, you can't enter into Heaven yet you are not going to hell. What's going to happen?
It's definitely not a biblical location. Catholics argue typology and authority, but the church Fathers of the early church didn't know of a purging in between place. It would be developed over the years. A good resource is Truth Unites (Gavin Ortlund)
@@Xavier-ww9zy There are no less than 9 recorded quotes/letter's that obviously refer to Purgatory. The 1st was in the year 160AD. The Jews & the EO also believe in a similar place of purging, but with different names. Don't confuse the actual Doctrine with the term "Purgatory." If that be the case, you'll have a whale of a time defending the "Blessed Trinity."
When Luther was debating Eck over the 95 Theses, Eck said if there is dispute between Scripture and the church, church will have precedence. Never, bro. I will never take man's word over God's. Also, purgatory and some of the other points brought up by your brilliant viewers. Love all you brothers and sisters
The church was established first with the authority to carry the tradition. Out of that tradition came the books of the Bible and then came the canonized set that is the Bible today.
The church dictated and its clergy dictated what was the word of God… You accept their authority for it and not for all the rest, it’s comic. Same for the trinity, a concept estabilidade by the Catholic Church
The Gospel is literally the words of men. The only thing that gives those particular books their validation is the Church that Jesus created. Jesus didnt say on this rock I will write my book. He said he will build his church. The church is the pillar and foundation of truth. It was the Father in Heaven who through the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to Peter. Why do you insist that the Spirit stopped working through the Church????
Brother in Christ, I know it sounds weird because you have been taught that the Bible is the only way to understand all the truths about God. But reality is, the Spirit also works through the Church. If the ppl in Paul’s time could interpret everything for themselves, there would be no need for Bishops and Apostles, yet there were.
Luther's initial heartburn wasn't w/ the actual collection of indulgences but rather w/ how they were being collected; specifically by Johann Tetzel under the guidance and direction of the Archbishop of Mainz. Luther complained to the Archbishop about Tetzel's methods not knowing it was he who sent Tetzel out in the first place to raise money. Interesting history and a highly recommended read. Luther's view of many things in the Catholic church evolved over time and one was where he finally settled on no indulgences at all.
Catholic: Martin Luther was partially right but he was wrong. Ruslan: Okay show me were he was wrong. Catholic: Talks about all this extra biblical theology that keeps people in condemnation. Me: That sounds like Martin Luther was still right lol.
Catholic talks about theology that was in Church from it's early years, but which Protestants reject because it's not completely presented in Bible. It's like saying that integrals and differentials don't exist because math textbook for grammar schools doesn't mention them.
Uh the Church existed before the bible. You think EVERYTHING Jesus taught was written down in the NT? When did Jesus say that? I remember him saying he would build a Church with the power to bind and loose. Dont remember him saying he was writing a book too.
Yikes so if we dont pay indulgencies we are going to pay in purgatory before we go to heaven? That is not goodnews... saved by faith plus cash. Thank you Luther and Calvin for hearing from God.
All religions are flawed since none of them were created by God. But denominations serve to bring people to Christ. It’s not like every saved Christian has perfect theology. Yet their salvation is guaranteed. We all worship Christ with our various traditions and practices. All for the Glory of God at the end of the day. None of the small things people debate about will ever change the truth of the Gospel and divide the church
“Purgatory is God balancing out all of the debts” ???? No sir the Son of Man already paid my debts in FULL praise God 🙌🏼 “And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses. He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.” Colossians 2:13-14 HCSB “This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, And in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.” Hebrews 10:16-18 KJV
If you don’t see something in scripture it doesn’t mean it isn’t there. If the Church that canonized it sees it, and you don’t, maybe you just need to study more. There’s a lot of great resources out there. I recommend starting with Scott Hahns material.
well how long was the Word around before being made into the book you read? How were there ever any followers of Jesus without a book to read? They didn’t need a book, they had the Word thru the apostles and then the next bishops, etc.
At the 9:36 mark he says the eternal punishment is taken care of by Jesus on the cross and received by the sacraments. NO! Scripture is clear that we are forgiven for all sin the moment we believe, have faith in Christ death burial and resurrection. It is NOT through sacraments. This is an invention by Rome. Jesus is the once for all sacrifice. It's by HIS obedience we are saved, not ours. But genuine faith chnages the heart to make us want to obey. The joy of salvation fills the heart with thankfulness and willingness. Rome overcomplicates the Gospel and preaches a false one. Don't fall for it.
'' It is NOT through sacraments. This is an invention by Rome.'' You're trying to gaslight with alternate history lol. Every apostolic Church has sacraments that are required for salvation, not just ''Rome''. Even the non-chalcedonian Assyrian Church of the East has them which means it's how every early Christian practiced the faith...
@dontewithdragons How are they biblical when they contradict Scripture? I've provided just a sample in my previous comment. Sacraments as a means of salvation is completely unbiblical and heretical. Just as Jesus said in the Gospel to the Jews, "For the same of your tradition you have made void the Word of God." This is why Scripture was preserved. Its "profitable for teaching, reproof, correction so that the man of God is equipped and ready for every good work" as stated in 2 Tim. You guys ignore the blatant contradictions in your theology and that of Scripture.
@DanielMotesSEO I wasn't speaking to you. Notice how I said the Didache and there's also the new skeleton amulet recently discovered. This is not righteous anger, it is sinful discord. Redirect your focus towards understanding and grace. I am not one to argue with you in this state.
@dontewithdragons LOL what are you even talking about? Who said anyone has a righteous anger or any other kind of anger? Projection? Pretty prideful comment at the end pal. God resists the proud and shows mercy to the humble. Remember that. God bless, done here
Context is key for sure 👌 I say this with all do respect Catholicism seems more like prison rather than freedom in Christ. Constantly worrying about your Salvation, stressing, worrying. Micah tells us God yeeted our sins into the depths of the sea. Past, future, present he paid for 100% of my sins so i can freely enjoy and rejoice in his Grace and presence ❤ Thank you Jesus!! 💯
We aren’t worried about our salvation at all. We know it’s been obtained the day our Lord died and rose 3 days later. It’s more about keeping ourselves in check. Jesus died for everyone who has ever lived-even the most wicked who hate Him and will never believe in Him.
Watch the Full Podcast Here: www.patreon.com/posts/podcast-with-of-118177150
Folllow Voice of Reason Here: www.youtube.com/@VoiceOfReason_
If Jesus established a church starting with his 12 apostles and hundreds and many disciples. Why follow someone who protested against that church. Are we a follower of Christ and His Church or a follower of Luther and his ideas.
@@g33omega86 Because its much easier to follow a truncated faith, or one believing that he himself can create a faith himself, that forms beautifully with his own values.
Yo Rus! Bring on Will Weeden or Bryan Wolfmueller! That would be a great conversation. God bless!
@RuslanKD @RuslanKD
You've had multiple Catholics on here now (including Trent Horn) that have lots to say about Lutheran theology yet you have yet to ask on Dr. Jordan Cooper, Brian WolfMueller, or any other notable Lutheran theologians to speak to our side of these things. What's the deal?
@RuslanKD !!! Don't mistake this. I do love your content. However, with the Catholic and Orthodox panelist always laying into Luther and Lutherans as a whole, can we get an episode where a competent Lutheran pastor and theologian can have a seat at the table?
Dr. Jordan B. Cooper
@DrJordanBCooper
Bryan Wolfmueller
@PastorBryanWolfmueller
Pastor Will Weedon
@TheWordEndures
A revert to the Holy Apostolic Catholic Church here. Baptized into the Church. Viva Cristo Rey.
Props Ruslan for bringing someone that has challenged your beliefs in the past.
Shows ur passion for Christ first and foremost. Thank you Sir!
@@angelcity3308 this is love of Christ in him
@@angelcity3308 im still watching it. I'd loved to have seen him push back when this guy mentioned sacraments were salvific at the 9:36 mark. Yikes!
Passion for Christ? All I heard was a rejection of the truth. The devil was speaking his native tongue. Lies.
Ruslan is on his way to Rome ! I will pray for you brother!
@@DanielMotesSEO he doesn’t have Christian of other Denomination on to debate them but more to learn for him and his audience. I think it’s great and respectful
" It is no good asking for a simple religion. After all , real things are not simple. They look simple, but they are not. A wooden table looks simple, but ask a scientist to explain its composition and you encounter a series of mysteries and complications that boggles the mind . Likewise, Christianity is not simple. God has designed it so that a child or the simplest person can understand it , but a genius can spend a lifetime trying to grasp the full implications of even a single Christian truth . " ~ C.S. Lewis
Not entirely true.
@@Kalmar917its true
@@Kalmar917 entirely and 100% true there is nothing more simple yet more complex
Ruslan did us dirty for locking the entire talk behind patreon. It was getting sooo good
Yea I don’t like that that he’s doing this now all of a sudden. Like he isn’t well of and isn’t making enough through social media but greed is strong
@@IFearGod503 He has every right to charge for his labor if he wants to.
Yeah, greed is strong. Refuse to subscribe for content.
@@rhatala27 he has every right but it doesn't make it right. God isn't for sale and anything that is edifying to the church should be free but of course people should be able to donate because a laborer deserves his wages so don't muzzle an ox as it treads grain. This makes us fully dependent on the Lord for our provision and develops more faith. Putting a price on it ourselves shows a slight mistrust in what the Lord can do. We're all learning as we grow closer to the Lord. We all have much to learn so grace is needed and grace we must give. I don't condemn him for charging but my convictions steer me to do otherwise.
@@rhatala27 It's true tha the has every right to charge for his labor. But this is a debate that every christian both catholic and protestants have been waiting for with hope for enlightenment on why protestants hate Catholic so much. so It doesnt feel right to paywall this coz it goes against discipleship and teaching of God. Imagine the disciple saying pay me first before i share with you on the good news.. Nah nah..
Here is how I connected the dots as a Protestant coming into the Catholic Church: we read from the scriptures that “being saved” is not just a one time all-is-good deal. You make the decision to become a follower of Christ. But, you are not yet fully like Christ. He has given Christians the Holy Spirit to help us on the journey of sanctification, becoming more and more like Christ, and to help keep us in the faith that we would REMAIN saved at the hour of our death.
We read that when we die-when Christians die-all of our works will pass through fire. What is build of wood, hay and stubble will be burned up. While what is made of precious stones will survive the fire and go with you on the other side of this fire. I personally made the connection that, 1) that fire was purgatory, purging Christians of anything that cannot pass through that fire to the other side, and 2) the things that we do on this side of eternity to help form the character of Christ in us, to form virtue and to build our lives with precious stones that will pass through the fire, THOSE are indulgences in the sense that they are lessening the things made of wood, hay and stubble in our lives that meet the fire of God’s holy and good love. Reading your Bible, praying, doing good works and works of penance, all of those things and what the Catholic Church calls gaining an indulgence are, the way I word it, proven ways to help change the content of your building from things that won’t last into the things that will last into eternity.
I already had a grid for eternal rewards, sanctification on this side of eternity (before death), and spiritual disciplines before coming into the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has all of those things and in fullness. To use an example from the video, the murderer who gives their life to Christ has confessed their sins to be in a state of grace, the eternal consequence of separation from God taken care of through Christ’s sacrifice. However, there is still the inner character of the person that needs reform and the temporal effects of his past misdeeds that can have an affect on himself and those touched by those misdeeds/sins. Doing spiritual disciplines and serving others helps to change all the parts of their heart, to change their attachments from things that will pass away to God and eternal things, doing the will of God and not our own ways that lead to destruction. The Catholic Church has the authoritative teaching to say “these are proven to help reform your nature into that which will pass through the fires with you into eternity with God.”
Not a single Bible verse
Read Hebrews 10:14
@@mistertracey1 If you understand the Bible in its proper context, you shouldn't need them.
@gabepettinicchio7454 or you could provide biblical evidence rather than opinions
@@mistertracey1 I will. Give me specifics you seek.
Man if I close my eyes real quick he sounds like a Spanish Rocky Balboa 🤣
😂😂😂😂 bruh......hahahaha 💯
youre not wrong jajajaja
😂😂😂
You win 😂😂😂😂😂
what have you done haha
Imagine Protestants’ reactions when they learn Martin Luther believed in the intercession of the saints and LOVED Mother Mary 🤯
Imagine Catholic’s reaction when they learn that Jews don’t drink blood
Voice of reason is a fantastic apologist for the catholic faith a good on Ruslan for having him on
I like that Ruslan is testing the spirits instead of just believing anything he hears.
Well the Catholic Church is the church of the apostles
@@Christusvinciit’s a bunch of foolishness
Praying to dead people they don’t know. One minute they are in heaven and then they think some are in purgatory
Have no idea what they talking about no clue
@@Christusvinci it isn’t in the sense of Catholicism being the defining fellowship and definitive house for worship. They had no pope, nor is there any mention of intercessory prayers to the martyrs. “Church” in the New Testament simply meant the “assembly” of God through Christ, as well as the first established assemblies were also in several ways divided-that’s the whole point of Paul’s letters to each church regarding their wayward teachings or their views of works etc. and also the point of each church in revelation.
So to say one church is the definitive apostle’s church, when even the apostles had disagreements like Paul did with Peter in Galatians- isn’t biblical.
@Nutterbutter123 boy someone doesn't know church history, what do you think, in the bible is "breaking of the bread is"?
What do you think made Nero justify the martyrdom of peter and Paul amongst other Christians?
What do you think the table in the recent archeological finding in Megiddo was for,?
What Made you think that disagreements meant having different doctrines?@
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣Prots.
You don't know and don't want to learn
@@TriciaPerry-mz7tc that's what happens when you are not humble enough to understand the scripture, I am guessing Jesus Christ was talking to "dead people" on the mount of transfiguration.
And someone doesn't know that purgatory in there in the bible?
😔😔😔 Prots!
I’m a Protestant non denominational believer and I regularly watch Voice of reason videos! He’s one of my favorite channels. I also love Shameless popery and Trent Horn.
@@calebdesjardins616 they are three of my favorites!
Let me know when you decide to come home.
That’s great , I’m Catholic and I enjoy a few Protestants podcast myself
Visit a Confeseional Lutheran church brother!
@ I might to be honest! I love my church but I’d love to visit a more liturgical experience
When I first came upon the voice of reason, I thought this man’s well spoken and put together, he must have a lot of followers. After I watched the video I looked at his subscribers and he only had 48.7k subscribers. Glad to see people are finally giving him the respect he deserves.
I wanna hear this guy yell “yo Adrian!“ so bad
He says, "YO ADONAI, I DID IT" instead
He did in one pod cast where 1 person was named Adrian.
😂😂😂
Voice of Reason is making moves. He's gonna be one of the biggest Christian content creators for sure
Love that he sounds like Sylvester Stallone too 😆
AMEN
He definitely knows his stuff!
Christian?.not sure abt that but he's the biggest Papist Roman apologist there is
@@helligusvart2384 God bless you
All will come to the fullness of truth. Jesus Christ is found in the sacraments of his Church which he has preserved for 2,000 years. The gates of Hades did not prevail against it and will not. I was a protestant until I realized that the Eucharist is literally the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Then it didn’t take long for me to realize I was wrong all along. I am so grateful for the Holy Spirit leading me to all truth and bringing me home to the true Church. Amen 🙏 Come home brothers and sisters, much love ❤️
@@breezecsgo7118 so can you tell me the threshold for the gates prevailed over the church? Like how do we know when that’s happened?
No kingdom divided shall stand, yet how many times has division happened?
So again, what is threshold for the church being overcome?
Unless you can clearly say, it’s just an arbitrary goal post you are using to wield an authority that is level with scripture… yet it never will be.
@@breezecsgo7118 beautiful testimony. God bless you 🙏
@@kaffakid You are right to say that division, error, sin has all happened throughout the history of Christianity. Yet the Church has always overcome these and stands as a visible body of Christ on Earth. Divisions and heresies has never separated the true Church and the continuous teachings and traditions of the Apostles and Early Church Fathers are still valid today which is evidence that the Catholic Church remains true throughout the ages by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. The same cannot be said for protestant teachings as they have no continuity with what the Early Church Fathers believed and taught. So yes, the gates of hades did not prevail and will not prevail against the Church. The truth will always prevail and the Church is the pillar and support of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15). Also if you haven’t done so, I urge you brother, to learn more about the teachings of the Early Christians and see for yourself what they believed about the Church and the Eucharist. Peace and grace be with you from our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen 🙏
@ChristineMcg God bless you ✌️❤️
@@breezecsgo7118 this sort of pedigree you assign yourself when we were both bought by the same blood makes no sense. I urge YOU brother to not succumb to pride. ❤️
Thank you Ruslan for bringing Catholic Apologists to your page! I hope you continue to bring different sects of Christianity so that we can continue to learn what they actually teach and have a constructive conversation about it.
Catholics are not a sect, they are the OG together with the orthodox, because they have a direct lineage to the apostles
@@Wiemcc and yet they STILL get the bible wrong... bruh!
@ Bro you just have the Bible because of us, by the way our church fathers had been teached and instructed by the apostles. So it’s bold to tell us that we get the Bible wrong
@@RabbitWhiteThethe Catholic Church put together the Bible ,even if some Baptist Paster said they didn’t😂
Idol worshippers
He quoted Hebrews, what about Hebrews 10:17 referring to this single offering of Christ perfecting for all time those who are being sanctified: "then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
In his letter to Jerome, Augustine of Hippo emphasizes the unique authority of canonical Scriptures compared to other writings:
"I have learned to hold the Scriptures alone inerrant; therefore, if I find anything in those Scriptures that seems contrary to truth, I will assume either the text is corrupt, the translator erred, or I have not understood."
Keep the scripture over bad traditions, saint
Does it also perfect the people who suffer from addiction even after getting baptized?
If God's forgiveness and forgetting of our sins worked like you're presenting it, all baptized people would be physically immortal/baptism would have same effect as resurrection.
But don't listen to me - go do your own research. Go read the Church Fathers to see what the Church believed in from it's beginning.
@@Zibit21 Nobody brought up baptism. Hebrews is referring to the sacrifice of Christ, not baptism. Baptism is not the turning point in someone's life, spiritual regeneration is (being born again as Jesus says in John 3). Baptism symbolizes the washing away of your sins and your spiritual resurrection with Christ.
Question: Do you think Jesus was made perfect by baptism? No, he was already sinless. However, it was a sacrement and pattern established for His followers.
And yes, a truly saved person will begin to see victory over sin and additions. All christians wrestle with sin this side of eternity, but if you never see victory over sin, you have no reason to think you are a christian. There will be fruit. idk where you get this "baptism fixes everything" theology from. No church father ever held that baptism could grant immortality.
@@Zibit21it’s a process of sanctification. Even Paul spoke of the warring within himself of that of the Spirit and that of the flesh in Romans. It’s not about being perfect, it’s about a process of being perfectED.
@@Xavier-ww9zySaint Augustine did not believe in sola scriptura. Even if he did, he believed in purgatory, penance, baptismal regeneration, true presence of the Eucharist, etc… So they are all Biblical.
NO SIR , LUTHER'S THESIS #71 WAS NOT SUPPORTING INDULGENCES. LISTEN TO WHAT LUTHER WAS SAYING: Martin Luther’s 71st Thesis-“Let him who speaks against the truth concerning papal indulgences be anathema and accursed”-is not a defense of indulgences but a condemnation of those who distort the truth about them. Luther critiques the misuse of indulgences and asserts that any teaching contrary to the gospel’s truth, including the false promises tied to indulgences, should be condemned. This thesis underscores his call for reform and his rejection of indulgences as a means of salvation.
Ohhhhh I'm saving this quote!
Thank you!! I just said this and was looking for someone else who knew the truth about what Luther thought!! This gentleman is twisting the 95 thesis’s.
THANK YOU! Yes i was gonna type the same thing. Not only does 71 state that, but there are multiple thesis that clarify Luther's stance. 34, 72, and 76 just to name a few.
Ssshhh 🤫 you’re gonna break VOR’s narrative. Bro already has a lot of pride by thinking he’s superior to everyone else and condemning non Catholics to hell and saying their faith in Jesus is invalid.
Bro should change his name to “Voice of Pride” if anything 😂
Wait i dont get it, are you saying that Luther beleived indulgences were correct but were just missued? Or that he outright rejected them?.
Cus the quote is "He who speaks against the truth of apostolic pardons, let him be anathema and accursed!". This is from what i see on the internet. The statement would read that apostolic pardons are true, and anyone who speaks against it is anathema.
The amount of exegetical gymnastics in these few minutes is astounding.
11:18 i've read this chapter over and over. where is Paul saying that God repays you for the good or bad you do? paul emphasizes that its not him but Jesus who built the foundation and that he just plants the seeds and apollos waters it but neither make it grow only God. then goes on to explain that Jesus is the foundation on which to build the building on , and the work you do will show as it is tested. if what you build survives you will be rewarded for it but if not you are still saved. In short the work we do for the kingdom does have its reward for those who built on the foundation (Jesus) with good material. but it doesnt punish those who do not, insttead it says they're saved. and he goes on to tell ppl to stop boasting about human leaders. none of it seems to give credence to indulgences.... in fact paul specifically credits God FIRST in what he does. God is the one who sent him God is the one who made the seed they planted and watered grow, God is the one who made the field and the foundation by which the building is built on and surely the work people put in is rewarded but theres no mention of a temporal reward or celestial one.....
There are degrees of rewards in Heaven just as their are degrees of punishment in Hell.
Also I don’t think Alex did a good job describing indulgences. Indulgences by the way are just prayer, fasting and almsgiving. These three that Jesus commands us to do serve to detach us from this world. They also serve to heal the damages caused by sin, because even though our sins are absolved by the priest in reconciliation, we still may have damaged others and or ourselves(I.e. addiction or broken relationships). Indulgences transform our spiritual temple(which the foundation is Christ) from straw into Gold(which means less time in purgatory) and help to lead others into that same end.
Saint Paul is making it clear here that Christ is the foundation of our temple. He is also making it clear here that we will be judged based off our works we contributed. St. Paul therefore uses an analogy dealing with fire testing a descending order of materials in terms of strength. Fire is constantly used as judgment, but is also used as a refining agent(Isaiah 4:4; Zechariah 13:9; and many more). Therefore as Christ is the foundation, we still need to build upon our building with good resources, which represents our good deeds and spiritual life. Gold will most definitely survive the fire, while you are most definitely risking it with straw. And Gold may take less time to purify than “precious stones.” But as Saint Paul says, even that man will be saved, by only as through fire. As C.S. Lewis says, our souls demand purgatory. We leave this life with venial sins and the inclination to sin(concupiscence) and so we need to be purified in the fire so we may make it to heaven, because nothing unclean may enter heaven(Revelation 21:22). Therefore let us each build our temples up with the gold of God’s grace, so that we may survive the fires of his justice.
Scripture says: "If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire"
That is what he was emphasizing to be temporal punishment due after one's death, even for those who are saved: to suffer loss as through fire.
@@rlhicks1 theres no biblical text to support that
As an orthodox voice of reason is actually a good example of a catholic
Speaking as a Lutheran. There's a reason the 95 Thesis aren't part of our confessional documents. And in our confessional documents, it specifically says that we do not abolish the regular way in which priests are called to the ministry, nor have we abolished Private Confession, or the Mass. Not that this guy is necessarily misrepresenting us, but sometimes Catholic Apoligists like to leave out some of these important details.
12:07 "If you read Scripture 15 minutes a day that grants you a partial indulgence." Where in the Bible does it say that? Where do they get this stuff?😮
They get it from 1 of two sources 1) satan or 2) themselves.
@@Jacques.Smith_ They were given the power to bind and loose.
I can ask you were in the Bible does it refer to as "Bible Alone?'
the whole crux of the matter is that you deny that Jesus established a Church. You who deny that you are free to do as you wish will learn at a later date.
@gabepettinicchio7454 Your lack of intellectual integrity is insulting. Explain to me how I made the claim that Jesus didn't establish the church?
@gabepettinicchio7454 You are arguing with voices in your head man.
@gabepettinicchio7454 Let me tell you what the "whole crux of the matter" actually is... you, being unable to refute the verse I quoted. I provided contex related to title and what you got from that, is... oh he denies Jesus raised the church. Actually, I don't and you have failed to address the topic at hand twice.
Ruslan thank you so much for having voice of reason on the Pod. Big fan of yall
Voice of reason is 🔥🔥🔥.
If the premise of the Reformation was to reform the Catholic church, then recognize the reformation has been answered. And thus, you should be Catholic.
If the premise of the Reformation was to create something ENTIRELY NEW away from the Catholic church, then you're purposefully dividing the body of Christ which should be rejected. And thus, you should be Catholic.
"I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." Nicene Creed.
Well God decided differently :-)
This is a horrible attempt at an argument. You’re presupposing the Roman church’s claim is correct, which is the very thing being disputed.
Mutiple seperate churches are seen described in galatians. Paul advises those excomunicated to go tp a different church so that things wpudlnt get hrated. Being excominicated in most cases has nothing to do with serious sin, but people disagreeing and not obeying. They are advised to go to another church.
We know that he is talkibg about excomincated people because it is the same language as philemon.
In your view someome excomincated is banned from all chruches. The reason for excomincation os different.
Ots so you are not going to the same church as the spouse you cheatwd on etc.its for peoples protection. And to keep them away from thier vice "so that they may be saved".
Sacraments in the church don't save!
catholic, small C, and the Reformed faith and practice IS the continuation of the true catholic Church.
Low key, I’ve never wanted to sign up for Patreon until now
Same😂
he got me with this cliffhanger
@@logansantee6189 factssss lol I’m dying here lol
Good job with all of the guests keep it up
Catholics treat Martin Luther as if he’s the Protestant pope, he’s not
I’m free as a Protestant to pick and choose what I agree with him on.
Well obviously, you already pick and choose what you agree on with Jesus
How convenient
Which is very problematic in and of itself, as it fragments the faith into countlessly varied (and oftentimes contradictory) individual opinions rather than preserving the unity and integrity of the deposit of faith. It is the Church which is the pillar and bulwark of truth, not each person interpreting it individually.
Protestants only know how to pick and choose so I’m not surprised you doubt your founder
The Israelites did the same during the time of Judges
The last line is a warning, not a goal
you should bring Jordan B. Cooper on!
Yes! That would be amazing, or pastor Brian.
Yooo its voice of reason. Nice. Much Respect for this guy. Blessed
“In the Greek, a single word is used for “judgment seat” in Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10-the word is bema. A bema was a raised platform on which judges sat to view athletic games. Their job was to make sure contestants followed the rules and to present awards to the victors (see 1 Corinthians 9:24-27). The bema was never a place to reprimand the athletes or to punish them in any way. It was a place of testing and reward. In the same way, the bema of Christ will not be a place of condemnation or censure.”
Thats very interesting, I've never heard that b4
Will ponder this. Thanks for sharing
He can distinguish between “eternal punishment” and “temporal punishment” all he wants, it isn’t taught in God’s Word. And if there is ANY punishment for me to endure then Jesus’ words from the cross, “it is finished,” weren’t true. Jesus bore the full penalty for the sins of his people. He drank God’s wrath down to the very dregs. This man’s theology at its base is an attack on the sufficiency of Christ for salvation. Homeboy needs to read Galatians.
Honestly a very interesting conversation
Protestants should know these things about Luther. Roman Catholics should have a better understanding of what Luther was aiming for when he wanted the church to reform.
Finally! Been waiting for a or videos to drop with Ruslan. Thanks fellas.
I never had a patrion, but I might have to try it out for this interview. This is so good😅
Luther's 71st thesis was not an endorsement of indulges. This man is twisting Luther's words. In reality, he said "Let thise who oppose *the truth concerning indulgences* be accursed." He was anathemetizing those who opposed the truth about indulgences (i.e., their danger and harmfulness).
amen! I was just going to write the same thing. Luther goes on further in 72 and 76 to further clarify his stance against indulgences.
The term "concerning" doesn't exist in the original text. And Luther made commentary on the 71st article where he clearly takes the position that indulgences must be accepted on pain of anathema.
Luther was opposing the sale of indulgences, not indulgences themselves.
@@PaulR92 Correct but indulgences themselves are in fact EXTRA biblical. There is nothing in the Bible that supports them.
Sirach 3: 30 As water extinguishes a blazing fire, so almsgiving atones for sin.
Luke 11: 41 But give as alms those things that are within, and behold, everything is clean for you.
Two different meanings but go on…
@edward1412 Your protestant veil is in the way, but go on with your personal interpretations of the Holy Scriptures.
@edward1412 Luke 21: 1 Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, 2 and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. 3 And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. 4 For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
"But give as alms those things that are within." Luke 11:41. That woman gave what was within.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (NASB):
"For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident. For the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire."
🕊
Sounds like purgatory to me.
@mmfin95
Hello, I hope you are well. I can understand why you might believe that, especially if it’s what has been taught. However, when I read the Word of God, it states that believers in Christ go directly to Heaven upon death, where Jesus and God are together. This is affirmed in 2 Corinthians 5:8, which says: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”
At the Judgment Seat of Christ (not to be confused with condemnation), all our works will be evaluated. Bad works are burned away, while good works result in rewards that we joyfully give back to God in eternal service. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is secured through faith in Jesus Christ, but it reflects the fruit of our lives.
2 Corinthians 5:10 (ESV): “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” Romans 14:10-12 (ESV): “For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God... So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.” While some believe in purgatory as a process of purification, the Bible assures us that Christ’s sacrifice is complete and sufficient to cleanse us from all sin. Through His work on the cross, we are made righteous before God:
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB): “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Because of Christ, we are no longer at enmity with God but at peace with Him:
Romans 5:1 (NASB): “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Salvation is not about our ability to purify ourselves but about trusting in the finished work of Christ, who declared, “It is finished!” (John 19:30).
Additionally, we are reassured that through faith in Jesus, we can stand confidently before God:
“There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 8:1, NASB) “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14, NASB)
God bless you and keep you and your family.
Love, Joy, Peace, Jonathan
@@brightelskerfoundation And yet the verse that you quoted (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) says that yes you will be saved, ''but only as through fire''. So by claiming that (2 Corinthians 5:8) refutes purgatory, you have to assume that 1- the process of being ''present with the Lord'' instantaneously follows being ''absent from the body'', something that the verse does not imply and 2- You also have to assume that the after life (purgatory, heaven, hell, etc) are temporal process in the same sense that life on Earth is a temporal process, again something not specified in the Bible.
@@manniman82”Today you will be with me in paradise “ To die is to be with Christ in Paradise period
@@dkjazzz Again, you are assuming the same temporality in heaven as on Earth and that purgatory must be a temporal process... You are also assuming that the thief on the cros is the norm whereas this example shows Jesus' prerogative as God.
Keep up the great work Voiceofreason.. May god eternally bless you 🙏
Why aren’t we teaching people how to get closer to Jesus instead of sowing division among the Body?
God is great and consistent, He keeps His promises.
Especially when it comes to His elect.
How have all the schisms worked out for the schismatics?
20,000 to 50,000 as per some stats!!!!!
Protestantism is kinda the definition of sowing division
there was no denominations before the Protestant reformation
if all several hundred Protestant denominations joined as one that would be a huge step forward to uniting the church
@@showtime1235there’s over 30,000 “Christian” denominations but your number of several hundred sounds far more charitable
Have you seen any unity in protestantism ever? Sowing union with Christ is preaching the truth of the only faith and Church Christ has left us with. The others are the division, by definition.
The Catholic guy who sounds like Rocky, is basically saying that our FULL salvation is works plus grace based rather than grace alone based. This is the crux of the Reformation. Martin Luther correctly pointed out after reading, studying, & meditating through the book ok of Galatians, that believers are fully saved by Grace ALONE, Faith ALONE , & Christ ALONE , and nothing else.
Further, Martin went on to say that the Bible is the supreme authority, (Scripture alone) in these matters and not the Catholic church or her man made traditions, like indulgences. And that these are to the glory of God lone, and not to be credited to any man made institution. In essence the 5 solas.
@@jonathangrande9516 so all of church history got it wrong until Martin Luther came along.
@@jonathangrande9516 wait, I only need one of those solas to be saved? Can I choose which one? They aren’t all needed together, right? Because they are all ALONES?
James is clear that faith without works is dead. That is why Martin wanted to drop it. Only place in the bible the words faith and alone go together is to specifically say "not by faith alone"
That isnt what he is saying, purgatory is always speaking of sanctification not justification. But nice attmept at twisting his words
@@juangutierrez1883 Orthodoxy does not believe in purgatory or papal authority. They consider themselves the "true church" and the RCC as the first protestant one.
What it sounds like to me is that the Cross and the sacrifice of Jesus was only a partial salvation and the rest us up to our good works to save ourselves from purgatory which is a kind of less harsh hell for believers to suffer the consequences of sin. I don’t know where I’m the scripture it ever references that we should focus on living good lives to reparare our sins. It’s an extra step that Jesus never mentioned.
So you don’t have to follow the commandments? Don’t they help you live a good life? You don’t have to develop your virtues?
You say “I believe Jesus is Lord” and that is all? you don’t have to pray, put God above all, do His will, etc etc.
Good works is a result of being saved but doesn’t contribute to our salvation.
Indulgences and purgatory is about sanctification not salvation, as the people in purgatory are all going to heaven. To give an analogy. Purgatory is the waiting room for heaven. The gate to heaven is slim, being fat is being filled with sin. Those who have worked to get slim (be sanctified) before entering purgatory can easily slip through the narrow gate. But those who are overweight must fast and lose their weight before they can pass through. Eventually all will enter, it will just take different amount of time depending on how much fat (sin) you carry with you.
Exactly that's what I say, why the 10 commandments then. Or why after he died for our sins did God not bring heaven on earth(the new Jerusalem) or take everyone into heaven,why are we still here? It's because we have to prove ourselves worthy of heaven. Remember lucifer saw God in all his glory and new he was omnipotent and yet he still revolted and God others to listen. We go to purgatory to remove the stain of sin because nothing impure can enter heaven. Because of the what the fallen angels did. And Fyi the pains in purgatory is that of Hell. 1corinthians 3 11-16 one of several versus in the bible that pertains to purgatory.
This is why the Roman Catholic Gospel is a false Gospel and would always be.
The little laugh Ruslan has when he asks. “And you think scripture teaches all this?” 😂😂😂
Well it does, which shows that sola scriptura isn't sufficient.
Which is why Paul was right when he said to follow traditions as well. I mean what did Christians do before the New Testament?
@@ednaron1229 not to mention that there were already Churches before the New Testament. How was the early Church made up of "Bible believing" Christians when there wasn't even a letter of new testament scripture? Sounds to me like the earliest Christians were "tradition alone" instead of scripture alone.
@@mikejames303 No, they had the Old Testament and the letters that were written....to the Churches.
@@rlhicks1 the Churches already existed before the letters. And yes they had the Old Testament,but what they believed about Christ and the New Covenant wasn't written down when they were formed.
I’m stuck between choosing the Catholic Church & the Orthodox Church.
Go Lutheran or Anglican.
Do NOT go Lutheran or Anglican
Why the inability to choose?
This has to be one of your best interviews because I share in the sentiment that I want it to be free now. Kinda pissed but I trust that you are doing what you think is best. Also, if this helps you keep pumping out this quality of content I’m all for it. Keep up the good work, but dang you left me hanging. lol.
I’m so proud to be Catholic
Why ?
Ephesians 2:8-10. 1 Corinthians 3:3-7.
Glad you sat down with him man. Good on you Ruslan.
Two of my favorites. Both are voices of reason in my view.
I appreciate Voice of Reason defending the traditional view of purgatory instead of the modern tendency to make it about purification only rather than punishment. My biggest concern with Catholic apologetics is a tendency to want to defend the weakest version of a doctrine possible because it is easier to defend.
Its still heretical, its both refuted in Scripture and was addressed in the early church.
@ it’s not heretical, Jesus said those who speak blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either “in the next life, nor in the life to come” implying some sins will be forgiven in this life and some in the world to come.
He also said: “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. this verse in context has eschatological connotations, and hell is eternal so he is not referring to hell as the punishment he is referring to is temporary.
Most clearly, St. Paul speaks of purgatory like this: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3:15. He is referring to the particular judgement in this context as well. Again the loss he is here referring to is not eternal so it is not hell he is speaking of, yet it is also not talking about a man going straight to heaven, since those in heaven do not suffer. That is where purgatory comes from, it is also mentioned by the ECFs.
@@Spartan322
No it wasn’t
@@DrewH-u9f Yes it was, one sacrifice for ALL SIN, else you don't believe Jesus covered all sin, its a belief in works righteousness, that your works determine your place. And Polycarp refuted it with Scripture.
@@DrewH-u9f Yes it was, one sacrifice for ALL SIN.
Great job Voice of reason
He keeps quoting "God chastises those who he calls sons" as if that's obviously purgatory
Sheeeesh... imagine thinking Jesus' blood isn't enough to save us from our sin... how can they even claim to be Christian when they dont believe Jesus is enough. Indulgance is theft. We give to the church because we believe in the gospel and want to help its spread, and believe all our gains belong to God, but NOT because it will purge our sins. The concept of sin not being forgiven on the cross, such as "temporal sin" is not Biblical and flat out ridiculous. You either believe Jesus is enough or not.
How do you eucharist?
This makes no sense, if Jesus has taken all my sins on the cross why would I go anywhere else but Heaven.
He also asked for you to follow the commandments
Matthew 25 speaks of people not going to heaven for not being merciful, and just simply believing.
@@sunburntbone that’s like saying if God is good why is there evil in the world?
You are going to heaven. That's what he just said. Protestants and catholic both believe that there is a process of sanctification before entering heaven ( because free will) the difference and question is if there's temporal purgation after death?
Just because you are forgiven for your sins doesn't mean there isn't consequences and purging before entering into heaven. So in other words, if you are in purgatory it's because Jesus paid for your purgation. It's because your going to heaven.
Then explain Mt 7:21
Thank you Rusland for giving good examples of dialogue between those we disagree with. You were so charitable and respectful towards him! Thank you
He contradicts himself so much. If Jesus paid for my eternal sins and those are forgiven, then if I die I still have to pay for them? So then Jesus didn't pay for my sins, he wasn't enough, based on what he stated.
The consequences of sin may still exist
Jesus gave us the way for us to follow. We pick up our cross & follow him. It requires effort & sacrifice on our part. He made forgiveness of our sins possible through the process of our cooperation with God’s Grace. We need to have true faith working in love, and try our best to turn away from sin. We’re going to fall so Jesus gave us the Church & all the sacraments to help us
@@peterhenryzepeda3484they do still exist
@@ItsAndy__ if you admit that we will not have any temptation to sin when we’re in heaven, you must also admit that from now until we get into heaven, SOMETHING happens to us so that we have no inclination toward sin anymore. We call that purgatory.
@@ItsAndy__ it doesn't mean Jesus died for you.. you have to keep sinning.
Let me get this straight. Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, but there are some penalties we still have to pay? Indulgences seem to go against the word of God, which says that God desires obedience and not sacrifice. What amount of praying or Bible reading, however beneficial to my walk with God, could ever come close to paying even a small portion of the wages of death I am due? Only the blood of Jesus is sufficient, and those who think they can contribute even a little to lessening their "guilt," whether eternal or temporal, do not understand the difference between the holiness of Christ and our depravity.
This conversation just makes me hate indulgences even more. At least before this, I thought it was just a way for money-grubbing priests to pad their coffers. Now, I realize it's a systemic misunderstanding of the cross.
Work out your salvation in fear and trembling.
I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church from birth till I was 21 yrs of age...my Junior yr in college I switched to the Catholic Church. I have a Catholic Bible and there are 7 more Books in that Bible compared to the Protestant. I was told that Martin Luther WANTED to throw out the Book of Revelation with the other 7 he had thrown out...how it was allowed to remain in the final Protestant Bible is probably a miracle.
James?
I own a Lutheran Bible and it does contain those 7 books, they are not part of Old or New Testament but they are in the Protestant Bible
It's in the original King James Bible. It's called the Apocrypha.
@RyanFGNM Can you give us the verse where Jesus hands a KJV to His apostles prior to ascending into Heaven?
That Great you went from Southern Baptist to Catholic!!!! As a Baptist what made you want to look into the Catholic church ? Was it because of all the negative anti Catholic stuff from Baptist?
Voice of reason, brave man you are.
This is the problem when you have two types of grace, you have to make up a ton of rules to help you with the second grace thats man made.
I dare ruslan to invite Sam Shammoun and ask questions about the apostolic Church
I saw this guy a few months back in a video where he called out Ruslan saying he didn't know church history. I thought that wasn't a fair critique said in good faith at the time, so to see his face on a Ruslan video of them in studio together was surprising to say the least. But this is why I love Ruslan. He's fair, respectful, and truly open to dialogue with Catholics and Orthodox folks, which is good because I feel like most of our disagreements are more so misunderstandings than anything.
The Bible says not to quarrel over debatable matters and yet I see so many Christians saying their denomination is the "one true faith" or the "one true church" - we are all Christians and overwhelmingly agree on the core aspects of the faith and belief in Jesus and we shouldn't overlook that.
P.S. Ruslan, if you're reading this - I got your leadership planner back in October and it has done wonders for my life on a daily basis. I was in the market for a journal and the way you structured yours was just perfect for my needs, so thank you bro. -Thomas
@@TRINITY-626 Do you think praying to Mary or other saints is a small matter? Do you see any Godly person in the Bible praying to any person besides God? Go read passages such as Isaiah 19:3 or 8:19. The whole Bible teaches to pray to God directly as Jesus also taught.
Yep I Love all my Catholic ,Orthodox and Protestants Brothers and Sisters in Christ .
Yep I Love all my Catholic ,Orthodox and Protestants Brothers and Sisters in Christ .
If Jesus already took the punishment for OUR sins, then why would we have to pay for them in purgatory as well? Wasn’t He the propitiation?
He's wrong about these 71:
"Let him who speaks against THE TRUTH CONCERNING papal indulgences be anathema and accursed.
“Concerning” is not in the Latin original of the 95 theses. It’s something more akin to “truth of”.
Luther clarified thesis 71 in his 1518 Explanation of the 95 Theses:
For although the bestowing of indulgences is a small matter compared to the grace of God and in contrast to the loud bellowing of those who preach them, nevertheless he who would raise his voice against it acts arrogantly against [papal] authority. Therefore he deserves to be cursed, since ecclesiastical obedience to the pope is so much more admirable when he gives up his own feeling in lesser things and humbles himself.
Which truth is that (according to Luther)?
The truth is that indulgences, or papal pardons, are true. Luther's argument wasn't against indulgences, but against the attachment of them to good deeds in the form of money or tithes.
Anathemas are serious business, you can't tag an anathema to a "truth" without in the same line explaining what that truth is, unless it's just obvious that the referred "truth" is the obvious one that everyone at the time knew, that indulgences are a thing, as opposed to not being a thing: therefore being accursed those that claim they're not what they're said to be.
Protestantism is also far removed from the teachings of the apostles
Because worshipping Mary is at the top of list of Apostlic teachings 😂😂
Paul never said that who ever rejects indulgences, should be kicked out of church.
Because indulgences are an extra biblical man made addition. Paul is not God so couldn’t see into the future to know this would be a thing, and therefore warn against it. In the same way, the Pope, and most
Marian doctrines they’re extra biblical.
Luther said that.
@@AnnalyFaith How can be this man made extra biblical?
Luther said that though.
@@AnnalyFaith "Because indulgences are an extra biblical man made addition."
Everything that gives rise to the doctrine is biblical, so that sort of proves you wrong, doesn't it? I guess what you're saying is that we shouldn't do theology at all? I don't see that in the Bible. I do see a teaching Church, an authoritative Church, though. I see nothing that says anything at all about you, so I figure you have no authority whatsoever to teach contrary to the Church.
I looked it up. Here's what I found:
71. He who speaks against the truth of apostolical pardons, be anathema and cursed.
This reminds me of Scripture in John 20:23 "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."
Bring Dr. Jordan Cooper next, let’s see what he thinks!!
I see people here say that voice of reason is contradictory I don’t agree. I am a Protestant, however what he says makes complete sense in his paradigm. I will say what he said I understood how he got there. He lost me at his talk about purgatory.
Without the catholic you don’t have the Bible
False they didn’t write the Bible the Bible was there before the church they just put them together
The Church has ALL of the writings before the RCC decided to put them all in a book (and the RCC still got it wrong).
I appreciate the cordial nature of VoR. I watched his debate with Dr. James White, he did good but still has room to grow. I've missed out on some of his content since. But glad to see he's still spreading the gospel.
So proud to be Catholic. Alex did an amazing job as per usual.
I love Alex. Thank you for bringing him on. Long live Christ the King.
Could you have Dr Jordan Cooper on? He is a Lutheran content creator and pastor and scholar. Just a thought. 😊
@VoiceOfReason is great at representing and explaining Catholicism ✝️ Glory to the Father and to the Son and The Holy Spirit
He said the ‘church’ says the indulgences pay for those in purgatory. Because the RC church teaches that the Pope (a mere man) has authority over the Bible whereas protestants believe the Bible, God’s Word, is the ultimate authority.
The church has authority as does the bible. We know this because it was the church that validated the bible which are the words of men. Jesus did not write a book he established a church. The Father revealed the truth to Peter via the Holy Spirit, not a book. Christianity existed long before the Gospel. Your obsession with the Bible is idolatry.
@@stratmatt22and your obsession with the pope, Mary, saints, etc is true idolatry so… 😂
@@stratmatt22hearing someone say obsession with God’s word is idolatry is wild to me 😂
"He said the ‘church’ says the indulgences pay for those in purgatory."
He did not say that.
"Because the RC church teaches that the Pope (a mere man) has authority over the Bible whereas protestants believe the Bible, God’s Word, is the ultimate authority."
Both statements are wrong as written.
@stratmatt22 What came first? The Word or the church?
Reading my bible and praying for 15 minutes a day reduces the burden of the consequences I experience when I die? And this is taught in scripture? It's such teachings that give Protestants the perspective that Catholics believe in salvation by faith PLUS works.
Matthew 23
It almost sounds like to me someone isn't accepting of the full forgiveness of christ. If you have been forgiven of sins that is sins here and now cause where else would it be. We only sin now. This also sounds like we are working for our salvation and complete forgiveness..... Which is absurd.
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling….
You want all this to be simpler than it is. We al do our best but it’s not that simple friend.
@richyburnett that would be your decision to put your faith in Jesus. We can't be saved by anything we do in our own power.
Ephesians 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast".
You get forgiveness and an opportunity to follow Jesus and get to heaven…. but you still pay reparations….first by stopping your sinning, and by praying/fasting/almsgiving/suffering well.
Like….you break my window in my home and you say “sorry” and I forgive you….then you pay for my new window.
Romans 8:1KJV
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:9 KJV
[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
How do we go to purgatory if there is no condemnation for us who live after the Spirit, because verse 9 says the Holy Spirit dwells within us therefore we are not comdemned?
Not trying to bash anyone, but this is the Word I'm not adding anything if something contradicts the Word we need to bring these things into question.
Romans 2 -- all men are judged by works.
@@charlesjoyce982 Brother or Sister if when we read Romans 2 we see in verses 6 and 7 it says the Lord will render everyone according to his deeds. For the believers eternal life and glory and them that do not believe and obey it is hell. I don't see the point you are making, in fact this further strengthens the case that there is no judgement in regards to punishment to the believer that walked with Christ by His precious Holy Spirit.
These catholic arguments only worked when they had the monopoly in truth and were able to punish skepticism even when they defied now common biblical knowledge.
If the Church was established by Christ, and if He promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church, and if He promised to be with us until the end, and if He promised the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth, and if He gave to Peter the keys of the kingdom, and if He gave to Peter and the Apostles the power to bind and loose, what 'knowledge' are you referring to which nullifies God's Word?
Leets gooo VoiceofReason 💯💯
God bless you all ☦️❤️
Now that purgatory is explained in that way, I can confidently say… “it’s not biblical at all”
😂 have you looked into it because I think it is as said in Bible
Revelation somewhere towards the end: "Nothing unclean enters Heaven"
1st John 3 (I think): There are sins which do not lead to the death of the soul."
So if you died with sin that did not lead to the death of the soul, you can't enter into Heaven yet you are not going to hell. What's going to happen?
It's definitely not a biblical location. Catholics argue typology and authority, but the church Fathers of the early church didn't know of a purging in between place. It would be developed over the years. A good resource is Truth Unites (Gavin Ortlund)
I thought it was nuts from get go
@@Xavier-ww9zy There are no less than 9 recorded quotes/letter's that obviously refer to Purgatory. The 1st was in the year 160AD.
The Jews & the EO also believe in a similar place of purging, but with different names.
Don't confuse the actual Doctrine with the term "Purgatory." If that be the case, you'll have a whale of a time defending the "Blessed Trinity."
I’m glad y’all are having this conversation
When Luther was debating Eck over the 95 Theses, Eck said if there is dispute between Scripture and the church, church will have precedence. Never, bro. I will never take man's word over God's. Also, purgatory and some of the other points brought up by your brilliant viewers. Love all you brothers and sisters
The church was established first with the authority to carry the tradition. Out of that tradition came the books of the Bible and then came the canonized set that is the Bible today.
What do you consider Scripture and by what authority do you have to declare it as so?
The church dictated and its clergy dictated what was the word of God…
You accept their authority for it and not for all the rest, it’s comic.
Same for the trinity, a concept estabilidade by the Catholic Church
The Gospel is literally the words of men. The only thing that gives those particular books their validation is the Church that Jesus created. Jesus didnt say on this rock I will write my book. He said he will build his church. The church is the pillar and foundation of truth. It was the Father in Heaven who through the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to Peter. Why do you insist that the Spirit stopped working through the Church????
Brother in Christ, I know it sounds weird because you have been taught that the Bible is the only way to understand all the truths about God. But reality is, the Spirit also works through the Church. If the ppl in Paul’s time could interpret everything for themselves, there would be no need for Bishops and Apostles, yet there were.
Luther's initial heartburn wasn't w/ the actual collection of indulgences but rather w/ how they were being collected; specifically by Johann Tetzel under the guidance and direction of the Archbishop of Mainz. Luther complained to the Archbishop about Tetzel's methods not knowing it was he who sent Tetzel out in the first place to raise money. Interesting history and a highly recommended read. Luther's view of many things in the Catholic church evolved over time and one was where he finally settled on no indulgences at all.
thanks to VOR now I'm more protestant than ever
Love my Catholic faith!!
😂😂.. " and you believe that all of this is taught in scripture"?....
Good one Ruslan..very gentle there.
Rulan bout to coooook💪🏽🔥
Many of the Catholic practices do not derive from scripture and this is a good example. They get practices from tradition, history etc
The Church is older than the Bible and is the pillar of truth. Jesus did not say "on this rock I will write my book"
Because the church is older than the Bible? The earliest Christians for nearly 300 years had no Bible to rely on, but tradition.
Bring him om more, this was so interesting a learned alot.
Catholic: Martin Luther was partially right but he was wrong.
Ruslan: Okay show me were he was wrong.
Catholic: Talks about all this extra biblical theology that keeps people in condemnation.
Me: That sounds like Martin Luther was still right lol.
Catholic talks about theology that was in Church from it's early years, but which Protestants reject because it's not completely presented in Bible.
It's like saying that integrals and differentials don't exist because math textbook for grammar schools doesn't mention them.
Uh the Church existed before the bible. You think EVERYTHING Jesus taught was written down in the NT? When did Jesus say that? I remember him saying he would build a Church with the power to bind and loose. Dont remember him saying he was writing a book too.
None of that is true. What part of Catholic theology "keeps people in condemnation"?
Yikes so if we dont pay indulgencies we are going to pay in purgatory before we go to heaven? That is not goodnews... saved by faith plus cash. Thank you Luther and Calvin for hearing from God.
Voice of Reason didn't advocate for faith + cash. Typical protestant misrepresenting the other view
Well, this conversation has absolutely affirmed my beliefs that Catholicism is fundamentally flawed when put under the light of the Word of God.
All religions are flawed since none of them were created by God. But denominations serve to bring people to Christ. It’s not like every saved Christian has perfect theology. Yet their salvation is guaranteed. We all worship Christ with our various traditions and practices. All for the Glory of God at the end of the day. None of the small things people debate about will ever change the truth of the Gospel and divide the church
God's word leads to doctrinal unity not division like we see in Protestantism
@@PopeDefenders what division? You making things up to frustrate people is the definition of division. Are we Saved by Grace through Faith, yes or no.
@@yeshuaislord6880the 1000s of Prot denominations that believe in different things are pretty divided I’d say.
Your 'beliefs' are irrelevant.
“Purgatory is God balancing out all of the debts” ????
No sir the Son of Man already paid my debts in FULL praise God 🙌🏼
“And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive with Him and forgave us all our trespasses. He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross.”
Colossians 2:13-14 HCSB
“This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, And in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”
Hebrews 10:16-18 KJV
They’ve added so much to the Word it’s comical….love that Ruslan keeps saying ‘I don’t see that in the scriptures’
If you don’t see something in scripture it doesn’t mean it isn’t there. If the Church that canonized it sees it, and you don’t, maybe you just need to study more. There’s a lot of great resources out there. I recommend starting with Scott Hahns material.
Easy to say when the Protestant church removed 7 books of scripture.
@@QBlessed93that’s exactly what it means. It isn’t there and MADE UP. YOU ALL refuse to listen
well how long was the Word around before being made into the book you read?
How were there ever any followers of Jesus without a book to read? They didn’t need a book, they had the Word thru the apostles and then the next bishops, etc.
Reminded me when Pope saw a Bishop from German visiting him and He asked "are you Catholic? The German?" and the Bishop just laughed..
At the 9:36 mark he says the eternal punishment is taken care of by Jesus on the cross and received by the sacraments. NO! Scripture is clear that we are forgiven for all sin the moment we believe, have faith in Christ death burial and resurrection. It is NOT through sacraments. This is an invention by Rome. Jesus is the once for all sacrifice. It's by HIS obedience we are saved, not ours. But genuine faith chnages the heart to make us want to obey. The joy of salvation fills the heart with thankfulness and willingness. Rome overcomplicates the Gospel and preaches a false one. Don't fall for it.
'' It is NOT through sacraments. This is an invention by Rome.''
You're trying to gaslight with alternate history lol. Every apostolic Church has sacraments that are required for salvation, not just ''Rome''. Even the non-chalcedonian Assyrian Church of the East has them which means it's how every early Christian practiced the faith...
@manniman82 And the Didache. Even Ruslan probably knows about it. Sacraments are biblical and predate the Roman Church. Hence Apostolic tradition.
@dontewithdragons How are they biblical when they contradict Scripture? I've provided just a sample in my previous comment. Sacraments as a means of salvation is completely unbiblical and heretical. Just as Jesus said in the Gospel to the Jews, "For the same of your tradition you have made void the Word of God." This is why Scripture was preserved. Its "profitable for teaching, reproof, correction so that the man of God is equipped and ready for every good work" as stated in 2 Tim. You guys ignore the blatant contradictions in your theology and that of Scripture.
@DanielMotesSEO I wasn't speaking to you. Notice how I said the Didache and there's also the new skeleton amulet recently discovered. This is not righteous anger, it is sinful discord. Redirect your focus towards understanding and grace. I am not one to argue with you in this state.
@dontewithdragons LOL what are you even talking about? Who said anyone has a righteous anger or any other kind of anger? Projection? Pretty prideful comment at the end pal. God resists the proud and shows mercy to the humble. Remember that. God bless, done here
Context is key for sure 👌
I say this with all do respect
Catholicism seems more like prison rather than freedom in Christ. Constantly worrying about your Salvation, stressing, worrying. Micah tells us God yeeted our sins into the depths of the sea. Past, future, present he paid for 100% of my sins so i can freely enjoy and rejoice in his Grace and presence ❤ Thank you Jesus!! 💯
We aren’t worried about our salvation at all. We know it’s been obtained the day our Lord died and rose 3 days later. It’s more about keeping ourselves in check. Jesus died for everyone who has ever lived-even the most wicked who hate Him and will never believe in Him.