I dont care abt HP or number powercreep, what I care abt is team resitrictions. Dendro raised the ceiling when it was introduced, but it also helped older teams catch up, miko, keqing, etc etc. Furina n Neu raised the ceiling, but they made healers relevant, and other Fontaine characters made overload, geo, etc etc better as well. So what did Natlan n Nightsoul do, but force u to build newer characters to play their shoehorned mechanic?
It forces you to read. If you spend half a second not whining then you would see that even Gary Stu Lizard Neuv can clear it. Weak characters like Yoimiya are just built weak and thats a fact. It's like how no one would use Frostleaf to argue about powercreep in Arknights because she was designed by a drunk hobo since day 1
Nation of Racist (Nah Im not a woke crying about not enough black or stuff) They cooked some artifacts just for Natlan characters They cooked some weapons just for Natlan characters They cooked some mechanics just for Natlan characters They cooked some enemies just for Natlan characters AND THEY COOKED A ANCHON JUST FOR NATLAN CHARACTERS LIKE THAT THE MOST BLAND AND BORING WAY TO POWERCREEP IN A GACHA GAME WTH??
@@nonamepasserbya6658 no, you argument is irrelevant. What OP was trying to say was previous nations were pumping out strong units (Nahida, Furina) that helped weaker units (Kuki, Noelle) to rise, not how weak units can never be good. Pretty ironic of you to accused them of not reading while you missed the whole point yourself. And the Frostleaf argument is even more irrelevant because of how different Genshin and Arknights's meta is.
Vape teams with a diverse damage profile and some shred are borderline impervious to any restrictions. I can't remember a single Abyss cycle that forced me to swap off my usual Hu Tao Furina Yelan team.
I believe the restrictions are Mihoyo's response to the complain at 5:02: "How do we make players play characters that have less QoL than Neuvillette and less damage than Neuvillete? Let's put in mechanics that restrict Neuvillette!" And you can kinda see it in the upcoming abyss which is unfavorable toward Neuvillette unless you run some unorthodox teams.
The "building characters not for progress but to not regress" hits hard for Star Rail. As someone whose been able to clear MoC and AS with only a few resets in the past but needing dozens of resets for the most recent MoC and AS, I hate this.
I just decided to not bother. got 1 less star. 1 try. Whatever. I will not allow a company to dictate me what I like, who should I pull or what should I play If it becomes too scumy or annoyng I will just quit. we have Ananta/Wuwa + some other great games. Hoyo can f off. They have been a major dispointment lately
Yeah HSR situation is just painful. Lately I didn't have any issues because after saving for the longest time I quickly got all the optimal characters (E0, some S1) and suddenly I could even auto and still get full stars. But to keep it up I'd have to keep pulling for the most optimal characters and their LCs regardless of whether I like the characters or not. And then watch them become irrelevant a few patches later. What's the point?.. I'm done with that race. Genshin is much better with that for now. But it's been getting greedy faster than ever before so who knows what's next.
@@ixirionwise words. Just quit alright, instead of yapping constantly to a game company who doesn't even listen to their players for 4 years straight. It's like these players are clowns for complaining to a wall for 4 years 💀💀💀
@ I will quite HSR after 3.0. The reason I still played for almost a year is that I liked the lore and the story. Also soundrtack and cooleness moments. I find the actual gameplay in HSR is one of the worst combatwise
I got pulled jade in large part to help with pure fiction, and the second last one is the first time I gave up actually trying to get all the rewards. Im doing ok with acheron and firefly in MoC, but every single PF is a struggle every time. Gear requirements are a huge bitch and the increased amount of substats makes it feel impossible to actually get good gear. Multiple patches doing the same domain trying to get something as simple as a 3 liner relic feels impossible.
@@НиколайМалышев-с9п I mean, it takes time to think and more time to correctly express your thoughts xD This is the result of being non-scripted. Having an edited video is much of the point of his yapping
I saw this in a previous video comment section: "Powercreep is like inflation. A little bit is healthy since it encourages competition, but too much is bad since it renders characters obsolete."
The more "free" pulls a game gives out, the faster it needs to powercreep to compensate for it. It's very much similar to how printing out free money causes faster inflation in an economy. Gacha systems produce products with a perceived value that people are willing to trade resources for, and thus is an economy. All economies are subject to the same laws at the end of the day.
@@rainofkhandaq6678 tbf most characters in HSR become obsolete in less than a year due to the massive amount of HP inflation on enemies genshin has been great at keeping the DPS req on abyss low enough for anything to clear, but the trend is definitely getting noticeable
I think the most frustrating thing about powercreep isnt that the new abyss is harder hp wise but more like the new abysses will be more restrictive and those restrictions can be solved by pulling thats just such an ass move tbh
That’s gacha 101. What HoYo did differently is to make the initial feels good of Genshin last much longer than with other gacha games. This made the game a part of our life and we’re now too deep in to be insulted by exponential powercreep and DPS requirements inflation.
To add another perspective (not mine, I saw it elsewhere). Even if you come at the discussion from the standpoint "but the Abyss is optional, 90% of the game is exploration"; there's *still* power creep. Before Natlan there was typically just one, maybe two, characters per region that granted new movement mechanics (Venti, Kazuha, Wanderer, Xianyun) but now in Natlan every character that's been released has nearly render that actual act of exploration useless and obsolete. I think this is what's truly going to be the "back in my day" boomer talk of Genshin. Circle jerking about how long it took us to scale mountains, having to worry about stamina, or finding those specific little juts to rest or reposition ourselves.
When i say more endgame I mean something like a 10 min long fight against a 30m hp boss or something like that in abyss most of the time you do max 2 or 3 cycles and clear a chamber that's not satisfying enough for me
Abyss was never fun. Its bad content designed to force an arbitrary DPS + optional element check to try and get players to pull. Its something you do once per month for the rewards.
This is why I was so pissed when I saw that Mavuika was just a BETTER pyro DPS when Arlecchino released not too long ago. They had the choice to continue with the Archon universal support trend but no, gotta get that money. They made her the new ceiling for DPS and created problems in her kit (aka reliance on 5 star Natlan characters) to sell the solution (Citlali / Xilonen). The fact that they chose to put both Citlali and Mavuika together in a 21 days time frame is the peak of gacha greed.
My guy you just posted the most contradictory statement. Mavuika isn't a better dps than arle she's an alternative. Mavuika has a high ceiling but requires natlan characters to reach it while arle can reach it a lower ceiling more consistently on her own. That's called balancing the game. If mavuika was able to attain her current power without naltan then she's broken.
@@rushalias8511 part you forget is that the best team in the game IS mavuika, with xilonen and citlali also arguably being superior to previous established supports like furina and kazuha as it currently stands, it's not a nilou situation where a restriction exists but isn't a required restriction because nilou isn't a needed unit just a luxury, fighting spirit is restriction with..the strongest character and supports in the game that have more team options that you'd think
It was for balance everything if Mavuika able to use without Natlan, we probably should called her power creep. + Doesn't need Two Natlan support you can play her just for Xilonen with Vape Furina.
@@xksys yes the supports are superior but they still have niches that don't cover what the others can do. Furina benefits and boots hp manipulation making healing viable. Citali shred hydro and pyro and applies cryo. Xilonen is a buffer like kazuha who was relased near the tail end of version 1.x however she's geo and chain elemental reactions or group enemies for cc. Support units are meant to be flexible and interchangeable. Considering it took nearly 4 version to power creep kazuha should say a lot and even then it's only power crept in a certain aspect. As it stands you can still run mavuika for good dmg without those units...but they are just the ideal. I'm currently running mavuika with bennett, sucrose and diona and she's doing decent dmg still.
in every other patch cycle, even as they raised the dps ceiling, they introduced things to raise the floor. 1.x and 2.x we were mostly finalizing team and tc norms. 3.x introduced dendro, which raised the power ceiling for so many characters. furina's hp manipulation -> buffing in 4.x made a lot of healers like jean relevant, and xianyun plunge opened things up for any melee character. so in 4.x, even as we were getting strong dps units like neuvi and navia, we were also getting buffs to older units like noelle and diluc. in natlan, it feels like the mechanics are designed specifically to restrict older units. furina's best teammate was neuvi, but she also had synergies with characters like noelle. neuvi was the best dps, but he worked with basically every character in game. mavuika works best with natlan characters, and is heavily punished for not having natlan characters, which is shitty game design imo
Yeah, exactly. I'm fine with my older units being bad in comparison as long as I can see them growing. Yeah i didnt upgrade my account by pulling Neuvillette, but I did upgrade it by farming new set for Xiao. I'm still having smth to do and keeping up with hp inflation. In 5.x you pull for new characters, multiple of them, or you not building, not farming, barely exploring. And for the sake of some sad irony Natlan characters are most... lets say questionable in terms if design gameplay, aesthetic, so its easy to not like them
@@what-you-want-of-me-yt I think the worst flaw was not make Pyro MC solve these Natlan issues. Imagine if Traveler was a Xiangling sidegrade, but each time someone triggered Nightsoul using Traveler's off-field E, Traveler accumulated Nightsoul points, and when Traveler activated E and some Natlan char used transmission, they'd get that, almost like an extra Phlogiston bar. This way, Non-Natlan chars would help recover the nightsoul bar for Natlan chars, Natlan chars would have the same strength they have in Natlan, and Traveler could synergize them all with Mavuika too since Non-Natlan chars would be creating Nightsoul points for her in the end via Pyro Traveler. Also, this way, you would finally bench Xiangling too, while using Natlan chars at their full potential like in Natlan.
while we're on this topic, can i just say how much i hate the nightsoul mechanic. it's such a blatant cash-grab with all its restrictions. it's basically hyv's way of making new characters with mediocre kits that get carried by scroll. that's also the reason why mavuika didn't enable nightsoul for the rest of the characters like furina did for MH - if you could make nightsoul work on fischl, would you ever use ororon?
A better example would have been pyro mc vs every other pyro support, or kachina vs literally everyone else lol. Ororon is actually way stronger than fishl in a lot of teams (for example chasca, electrocharge and mavuika overload) due to his electro application being more frequent and most importantly: AoE that fishl completely lacks. But yes, I agree with the statement generally speaking
I think that's a good balancing strategy though. Moving some of the supporting capability to the set means you can't stack their effects. The energy restore from the set is also a cool way to make synergy within the nation imo. The problem is basically entirely mavuika.
Well yeah. They're avoiding powercreep artifact sets by making an obvously stronger artifact set limited to characters with specialized abilities. Otherwise, what good is marechausse hunter or prior support artifact sets if you can just put codex or cinder city on everyone? Plus cinder city is limited in itself so its not that spectacular anyways. Non-natlan characters wouldn't really take advantage of its 2pc since nightsoul burst is influenced by characters from natlan, not characters that use nightsoul, since Traveler cant solely enable nightsoul burst. We would need a set/weapon that forces nightsoul burst the way Xilonen does.
When older units get weaker, more clunky to play compare to newer units yet they still cost the same, that's something I have problems with. You will inherently be at a disadvantage for wanting older units despite paying the same amount as everyone else. It's shitty. This combines with the fact that Hoyo refuses to buff, no, not even fix some of the gameplay issues that older units have really sour my desire to get them. With how Natlan does things, exclusive mechanics, exclusive artifact sets and now exclusive archon, Snehznaya will be even worse now that people are accustomed to these QOL movement and easy of dealing damage and defintely won't settle for less.
fr, we really need a balance patch where Hoyo updates some passives, some slight multiplier increases for older units, and in some cases rework the mechanics to the point they've cut out the jank (yes I'm looking at Yoimiya for all of these).
@@TheJH1015 they really do. Some newer characters have all the QOL of older characters lack and deal more damage too. There is no incentive, no trade off where you sacrifice aoe damage for single target when newer characters can do both better. You can't trade survivability for more damage either because Neuvillette is likely to do more damage anyway. When the game releases a jack of all trade yet master of everything, the next thing they gonna do is to release the same thing but even better
@ mhm. But I also had in mind other minor updates like for example Rosaria's C2? it extends her burst duration from 8 to 12 seconds, but not the duration of her Ascension 4 passive (which buffs crit rate for teammates for 10 seconds). meaning you have 2 seconds of her burst uptime without the crit rate buff... it just feels sloppy and an oversight that could EASILY be fixed without anyone crying about it.
@@ishananchit677 lmao they are stupid because they actually decreased their sails in china by 60% in 2024 and mavuika is the least profitable archon banner globally
Because powercreep is comparatively new in genshin, it started happening once the previous CEO stepped down, I don't see a lot of comments mentioning this
@@banjoowo4001 Not really. Modern teams don't really hit that much harder than older teams if you fight Masanori. Genshin mostly just restricts, rather than powercreep, characters as time goes on. Almost every character is heavy nowadays - Venti would still be OP were this not the case. Venmorgana and Ayaka freeze don't do so well because every boss is immune to CC. National teams still clear Abyss 12 with ease when the mobs don't have high pyro resistance. That said, the restrictions have indeed gotten tighter. That's expected, as the cast of characters grows, restrictions have to become tighter in order to have the same effect. The Papilla is the most restrictive boss we've ever had, but back in 2.1 the Thundering Manifestation was just as restrictive when we did not have so many good ranged damage sources.
@@banjoowo4001 finally someone else noticing! There's a significant drop in overall Quality in Genshin too, the direction the game has at the moment since Natlan came out and the inconsistent Rewards! All since Da Wei stepped up. We praised him, only to fall right into the trap of Genshin *actually* falling off.
HARD agree on the restrictions thing especially this abyss, the amount of archetypes you need just to be able to clear it make your teams lineups look like imaginarium teams
Tbh I just do multiple runs, 3 runs with 3 different teams just for each floor to get 3 stars. I cba to mash together a team and try to make it work in one go.
@opernce That's what I ended up doing for 36 stars too. I used arle for the second half but got annoyed with the drake so I swapped to a random ass raiden aggravate team with fischl
@opernce I would call you the r slur but TH-cam would block my comment. Crazy how the dude I’m replying to is complaining about needing “so many archetypes” and then I disprove it, then you move the goalpost to “you play the same thing over and over”. Ignoring the fact that I never said I couldn’t play different characters lmao. Reading your other comment about needing 3 different teams sounds like a skill issue to me.
I knew this was gonna happen honestly. We got the artifact transmuter, 5 star selector, ect. A bunch of free stuff that "the other gatchas had". The downside is that, yeah we are getting what the stuff from the other gatchas, and that includes the powercreep.
@@agzane268 To be fair with HSR, they do release relics and units that make old units more relevant. And their player avatar character is actually cracked in terms of utility, or at least has been for the last two iterations. Like what happened with JY first getting a relic set and then a huge buff with Sunday. (Though that in and of itself is insidious because now you need a 5 star to make your old 5 star good.) I think the only units that are super hard core struggling right now that aren't a Standard 5 Star or 4 Star are Seele, Blade, and Jingliu. More Blade and Seele than Jingliu though if a quick look at Prydwen is any indication. Dot is apparently going to get more support down the line so Black Swan and Kafka are kinda mid tier right now and Silver Wolf got a buff due to Hoyo finally getting their heads out of their butts and releasing old 4 star cones in the Herta shop.That said I fully expect in a year that all of those characters might be in dire straights if they don't get the DHIL or JY treatment.
@@agzane268 i think people forget the reason why genshin's power creep isn't as bad as hsr is because of elemental reaction which elevates a lot of factors when it comes to damage, while hsr on the other hand is unapologetically a turn-based game and is much harder to do different kit that isn't identical to existing ones.
I think with the amount of characters in these days, they should make a new floor that requires 3 teams instead of 2. With less restrictions ofc cause the elemental check, bow check and NS check in this abyss is ridiculous.
That's what the Theater is about... It requires way more characters than the Abyss, and much better build. I had to dust off some of my 1.X characters to clear the previous season. And it's not the dps check garbage that Abyss is.
They've had events before where you build 3 teams, and one of the characters can remain for the next team (so it doesn't feel like shit when Bennet or Furina exist in like over half the viable teams), I'm sure they could make an interesting end-game mode around that. As long as it doesn't force cursed teams, we have theater for that already...
I agree with the overall sentiment in this video. I just want to mention that it's not the first time that Hoyo pushed people to pull characters from the same region to make their teams. Natlan is only more explicit about that in text, which makes it look more scammy, but in practice it's been here for a while. For example, most characters from Sumeru wanted Nahida for their best teams to pop off, which made her feel like a must pull for a while, while all the abysses had blessings for dendro reactions (not unlike Nightsoul next). Furina was also a paradigm for anyone wishing to pull for a healer, and Fontaine released two 5 star healers (Xianyun and Sigewinne) while Baizhu had his first rerun with Furina herself, not to mention that most Fontaine dpses had self-healing properties that synergized with Furina. And in early Genshin there was such practices too, like pairing Ganyu with Venti or Ayaka with Shenhe, etc.
I do agree with Furina and Nahida but they are nowhere near as restrictive as Mavuika. Dendro teams do need nahida to reach their peak potential but you could actually play them with any dendro character, same goes to furina teams as we already have plenty of healers available but again she's not necessary. The problem with mavuika is, you literally cannot play her without natlan characters, yes she can recharge her burst but its so slow any other dendro team or hydro team would actually be a better option and get faster clear time. Its so restrictive for no reason and it forces you to pull other characters.
The trifecta of Hoyo's most recent titles are all having a "powercreep" discussion at the same time. That feels like more than coincidence. Genshin, HSR, and ZZZ all have gameplay and situations that make each discussion different, but the pervasiveness of the discussion leads me to believe there is something happening on the company level. A greater push to squeeze their games is in play. The combination of rapidly pushing up numbers, along with ham-fisted gameplay adjustments that are no longer asking you to pull the solutions, is corroding their games.
@@Bronze_Age_Sea_Person Big companies are always in an endless pursuit of higher profit, so it wouldn't surprise me. You'd think making millions off virtual product and fake scarcity wouldn't require such heavy-handed greed, but humanity is like that.
Oh no its not. They have absolutely decided to double down in genshin. Star rail has been at it since sparkle and honestly it already began with dan heng and jing liu. Zzz i stopped in 1.2 so so clue.
It is indeed getting really hard to beat Abyss with styles. The inflated HP literally prevents many unorthodox teams just because they struggle to meet the minimum DPS check without the quality units. I pretty much share the sentiment of the video. Very nice content, please keep it up : )
I think the best way to word this is that abyss content is difficult,not challenging. And there's a fine line between those 2 What players want is challenging content that makes them have fun planning around it and playing actually well by utilising the mechanics the game has. What hoyo has been doing is adding "difficult" content by simply bumping up the HP numbers and locking defeating certain enemies behind having certain characters. So basically a nearly direct paywall to actually clearing content. This isn't too bad now but this sets a bad future precedent of needing the recent units to actually clear rather than using your faves....and i hope we don't get to that point anytime soon
@lolidemon3163 yeah which is why its not bad right now but i wouldnt be surprised if they make an enemy that has a mechanic that's only easily bypass-able by premium 5 stars
I think people forget something else. This is a gacha game. It's main focus is to sell characters to players. The issue with enemy design in gacha is that expecting a balance design is near impossible due to very randomness of it all. Either you can design the game with the assumption that players have only the free units gained through the game outside of the gacha. In which case you make it easy for anyone who has additional units. Or you make the game with the assumption they have gacha units in which case you start running into problems like accounting for players who don't have said units. From a design standpoint the easiest solution is to make all the characters have a base line interaction with the enemy but that brings another issue in regard to how they design characters to feel different and unique. The issue of power creep is unavoidable for gachas regardless of what they do because you either get too challenging or too borrowing. Any true compromise such as giving the player every units to try and clear the content is also a point against the company as then you won't be buying characters. No matter what people say there just isn't a realistic solution to the issue of power creep that genshin hasn't already tried. It is the nature of the game to change with each patch and characters will fluctuate as such.
@@rushalias8511 they can still control the rate. Genshin IMO has been doing a good job of keeping newer units and content balanced. Almost too much because people have quite due to no incentive to pull newer units. Which is personally why i am fine with genshin speeding up powercreep a little unless it gets to a HSR level point but that wont happen anytime soob
There is one thing that evaded this discussion which I think that is a much more worrying aspect of the game, which is that Genshin DOES NOT put old limited characters into the standard character pool. If the 5 stars that you could get by losing the 50-50 were actually old carry units like Ganyu, Hu Tao, Childe or many of the older carries who have gotten powercrept but that are still decent enough to clear the abyss, then maybe a lot of people would find the abyss to be much easier. Those characters have had many reruns and I feel like there is no reason why Hoyo shouldn't have put them into standard already. In Arknights, when you fail to get the character that you want, you are still very likely to get a character that is really good because the standard pool is constantly evolving and changing
I've said something similar before and the push back always baffles me. If you won't rerun a character because they're unprofitable, then just put them in Standard. Sigewinne, Albedo, Eula, Shenhe, etc... I'd argue it's so much worse leaving them as limited but refusing to rerun them because that means new-ish players will never even get the chance to see what they're about. It's been almost two god damned years since we last saw Shenhe. I bet there are players that are AR60 who have never seen a banner of hers.
they promised that in the anniversary stream and I'm still waiting, apparently Mizuki is standard so here's hoping she gets added alongside at least a few liyue/inazuma 5 stars
If Hoyoverse plans to go down this path of horizontal investment with some degree of vertical investment, we need more ways of obtaining characters. Along with what you suggested, there is also the fact that the four stars in the starglitter shop haven't changed since the start of the game. Despite being a long time player, I still don't have certain characters (Kuki for hyperbloom, c6 sara for Raiden hyper carry).
I would love this, but I think that there are legal issues with a character being advertised as limited (unlike characters like Dehya who were explicitly going on the standard banner) and then putting them on standard, unfortunately. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, though!
@@SnazzySitara I am playing Reverse1999, another Chinese gacha. They put newly released characters on their standard pool three patches after their rate-up banner, so there is precedent. After all, the limited-time banners increases your chance of getting the featured character anyway. I doubt anyone would willingly pull on standard to take their chances at getting a limited character with the odds stacked against you. If they implement a system like this, losing a 50/50 wouldn't feel too bad for the players, and it gives them more characters to use for Abyss and Theatre. At least with that system, their restrictions would feel more justified because we have a bigger toolbox to tackle the challenges they throw at us.
I think the most frustrating thing about that last abyss was how the much both sides would like to run teams that want bennet. It really felt like the devs were rubbing the collective disappointment over mavuika not being the pyro support we were all hoping for into our faces :(
Furina is 10 times more infuriating but you and the rest of Bennett haters just lover her sob excuse that much. Playing Chasca without her is a nightmare. That should be illegal
@@zeckrincuff3159 why would waves be harder because of mav and not neuv?? in 4.7 we literally had 4 waves and it was harder to clear without units like neuv who is very good in multiwave content
@@lupi3606I guess it's not specifically wave content I mean. It's more the room that would be available for restrictions that characters like Mavuika could easily take care of on top of having the potential DPS + AOE requirements. Being less flexible than Neuv makes it even worse.
I believe and hope strongly that no one will out dps mauvika. Every archon is the best in that archetype, venti has the best crowd control, zhongli the biggest shield, raiden the best battery, nahida the best reaction enabler, furina the best buffer/hp manip. Pyro has always been the damage role, the on field dps atk scaling role, it makes sense that the archon would just be the one gigantic damage unit in the game and i fully expect the cryo archon to have some insane crit ability like granting guaranteed crits while under her ult or something like that
Mavuika is powerful in different areas both on and off field. Even if she is power crept as on field dps she has a role now as a good off field pyro applied for rever melt and forward vape teams as well as burgeon.
Or cryo archon possible not just give Crit buff but can give you Permanently Freeze that able to frozen Bosses in chamber (She also buff shattered damage, now shattered hit 100% chance to crit)
idk the fact that they tease nod-krai having ppl with special power screaming a new gameplay just like in fontaine and natlan lmao. i wont be surprised if they would be just like natlan at that point forward. i hope the community is strong enough to suggest hoyo not going into that direction
One of the praises I had for the game was that power creep was minimal to non-existent. I don't mind it if the difficulty is not tied to whether you have the newer units or not, but as it stands it seems like it's going into the direction of needing to have newer units to clear the hardest things, not yet but it is evident that that design philosophy is being pushed faster and faster.
But which contents? Coz the Abyss is just avoided by the majority. While many complained about the climbing mechanics of the Secret Source Automaton needing Natlan characters, the thing could just be brute forced from below. I broke the pillars with just a lvl 40 Kachina but mostly she remained unused. The latest weekly boss was also met with disdainfor requiring Natlan/Nightsoul mechanics. But after seeing people wipe it down with Hyperbloom or any team that deals lots of elemental attacks, I just attributed it to my own skill issue. There's also the free Kachina and Pyro traveler for the majority of the users with bad gacha luck.
@@jiffonbuffo ... there's climbing mechanics for the Secret Source Automaton? I've never seen it live long enough to encounter those, even in abyss. And that's with a regular old Hu Tao team that only uses stuff from before 3.0.
Releasing op artifact sets that can't be used by older character is making powercreep worse. Like the set cinder city basically gives every Natlan support a mini Kazuha.
I’m afraid it will get worse as Nod-Krai is looking like they will be focusing on Pneuma-Ousia or Nightsoul type of mechanic if there is no new element
If you main old characters bc you like them, it also destroys the ability to play them in abys. Yoimiya is almost impossible to play in abys if you just like to play her and not care about meta. Teams that also focused on split damage across all the characters in the team also do worse bc Mavuika can do so much damage and run those supports that percentage of damage wise, her teams function like older hyper carry teams but the total damage is significantly higher.
Another point of powercreep are the artifact sets. Something like maurechusse can be used by anyone if you try hard enough (or just use furina) and then you have obsidian codex which limits you to only natlan characters being able to use it. Characters like hu tao have a lot of different artifact sets and then newer characters only have 1-2 sets.
coming from a former day one fe heroes player, yeah, that humbled me real quick on powercreep I'm surprised teams from years ago are still able to clear and keep gettin retroactive buffs through new playstyles but nightsoul and natlan overall feel like a step back
This is the definition of having low standards . genshin so far has been one of the only gacha who managed to handle powercreep by keeping new and old units at a relatively similar ceiling while giving more team options to everyone, but you're willing to give that up simply because since others did it worse, it feel like we had it too good ? They were making billions already with inazuma and sumeru, 2 regions with barely any powercreep, this is just greed showing
I mainly hate, when Abysses are super restrictive to force you to play a narrow set of characters. I play since 1.0 and have over 50 characters at lvl 90. The thing that still makes me enjoy Abyss is the big variety of teams I can build. But when Abyss mechanics make half of my roster unviable I just get my gems and loose all motivation to play beyond that. I’d love to still play Eula and Dehya in Abyss but lately it’s just not fun anymore.
Im not firmly against powercreep in gacha games because that's just the nature of the genre (even if it's a predatory nature) but I *am* against making the game unplayable for f2p players. If the monetization system relies on gambling, then all content *needs* to be accessible for every kind of player. Obviously that doesn't mean abyss should be easy, but I think it should reward investment and skills regardless of your units. If you're good enough you should be able to clear. I hope this is as bad as it gets with genshin.
I cannot agree when he said mavuika without new 5 star from natlan is shit when its literally easier for the majority of player to finish the abyss even without them instead of the international that said to be more than good here
We have so many on-field pyro DPS, we can do a pretty good look at how strong characters have gotten purely using on-field pyro DPS. Diliuc, Klee, Hu Tao, Yoimiya, Lyney, Arlecchino, and now Mavuika.
I see a lot of comments how its not a big deal and i kind of agree for now but its exactly how star rail players defended powercreep. Its feels like they are exact same people.
Genshin is over twice as old as star rail and does not have nearly the powercreep issue HSR does. I'd absolutely expect games to release stronger units, but they dont make older ones obsolete
The only thing worth looking at is the rate of abyss hp inflation, if that goes up to the point where old units dont clear in their premium teams we will have issues. Xiao is the main canary for this because he is a weak 5* that has gotten the perfect supports and cannot realistically improve anymore.
while genshin player worried about they chars might be getting powercreep in snezhnaya, HSR player worried about their chars getting powercrept tomorrow
Nah, HSR powercreep is more ridiculous. Sparkle was already a powercreep, but Bronya is a standard char, then they launch fucking Sunday and now even Rememberance Trailblazer will have action forward. Let's not even mention Acheron or Firefly, and this BS "ignoring resistance" mechanic, and now "true dmg" mechanic. Seriously, there are many unexplored niches in HSR, and yet they choose to powercreep old characters rather than explore new niches for kits, or create chars which open new team archetypes. For example, HSR would REEEALY benefit with a Furina there. Healers would matter more than just for cleansing, shields won't be as necessary, and you immediately buff Blade and Jingliu with them, and allow new characters with possible HP mechanic kits like Castorice and Mydei to not need absurd numbers to powercreep others, since they can have more mediocre stats of their own, but with a "Furina" and a Healer, they could reach Acheron levels of power. Furina even has pets, which would work as a Rememberance character. I'm fine with a new team powercreeping an old team, for example if they put an quantum harmony char that really makes Seele shine to the point she won't need Bronya and Silver Wolf(but could still work with them), and can work outside mono-quantum teams, but not a new char directly powercreep the old. I don't want a Silverwolf that can choose which element to add a weakness to and which enemy should get it for example.
We all knew Natlan was the nation of powercreep since we saw two artifact sets that were equally if not stronger than all others and they only work with a mechanic exclusive to Natlan characters. It really sucks so much, this is the worst abyss because even if it's not the most dangerous or the most tanky, the restrictions for pupila and qucusaur are the most frustrating for people who doesn't use Natlan characters.
the rewards dont even motivate me to clear floor 12 this time. people may like restarting it over and over again but im a person who doesn't like doing shit that doesn't feel fun over and over again. hp sponges, stalling mechanics, forcing you to have certain characters (i.e. bow user or geo user), all of it is incredibly unfun and so the only other endgame mode that gi even has is burdened by this stupid artificial difficulty. and it doesn't help that people will race to hoyo's rescue and defend them by saying "it's actually ez tho" or "nah, skill issue". what's the point in wasting time on building these characters just to use them in one unfun mode and MAYBE theatre if their element aligns with the current rotation?
I like that he's talking about endgame content without ever mentioning Imaginarium Theatre, like it never existed. AND don't forget Repertoire of Myriad Melodies, no chance of ever power creeping that I guess, unless they release scores that requires 4 thumbs, 12 fingers, 3 eyes and 2 brains.
"if your unit is bad for this Abyss you won't be able to play them for a month" Yeah this is the problem with restrictive Abyss cycles. I genuinely enjoy the problem solving it brings, but this is still a problem. Good point about the wipe mechanic being made redundant by the increased res. Papilla didn't bother me too much since unlike in the overworld it starts its shield immediately so you can have all bursts ready with your plan to take it out (done with multiple non-Naltan teams). The DPS check is lower, but if the fight goes long enough for it to shield again a second break was extremely difficult. Really hoping the mobs seen in the next abyss are a single wave. Multiwave vs. those shields sounds extremely miserable.
I think the challenge of the powercreep conversation is the definition of how much a player should be expected to buy into it. By that I mean, how much should we reasonably expect players to pull new units and build up their teams? How many teams would you expect them to have and continue updating for future abyss runs? And what is reasonable to expect regarding their unit diversity to be able to adapt to different requirements? A lot of times you see the conversation go to "newer players", which, if I'm honest, I don't think new players should be clearing Abyss. I don't think the days played or AR should count for determining their level of investment; anyone can build time / AR from doing quests or just logging in to do dailies. It's hard to quantity just how early one should be able to clear especially depending on the units they choose to pull for. I think defining that is important for the conversation. Because like you said, you're heavily invested in the game so you don't foresee yourself failing to get max stars and neither do I. But for the other players, I think the only way to discover how much powercreep is affecting them is to determine how much they should be reasonably keeping up in the first place and whether or not that's enough if you choose to skip / cannot get new units. Otherwise I feel the conversation can get drowned out by just general difficulty frustration.
You bring up a good point about frustration. We have a generally unfavorable attitude towards combat in this game, and the Spiral Abyss in particular. Instead of guiding players to plan their accounts we instead push an anything goes mindset, and hail mediocrity. Players who feel that they should be able to clear with whatever, who quickly find that they cannot clear with whatever, then turn around to blame the game for being unfair, while being propped up by the yes-men of low standards.
@el7284 Agreed. Which, I get it, I understand wanting to clear with the unit you've been with for a long time or just got a previous patch. But I think there's a level where they should be expected to adapt to the stage and pull characters with that in mind if they truly want to clear. If they don't need the clear, that's fine too. Some may find that missing a few hundred primos isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. Better to save your sanity / time than commit to something just for a relatively small reward.
@penguindrummer252 oh no I agree, I think that's why the conversation is so hard to have. There's no easy way to have the conversation with the level of nuance it requires unless you define it clearly at the start. But that in itself is challenging haha
I believe Genshin is still under a tolerable threshold when it comes to power creep. Yes, the bar has been raised, but they always make sure to give you an alternative way if you don't want to roll. For example, the Nightsoul shields could have easily been "just Natlan", but they added an alternative way to deal with them through rapid application of elemental damage, which allows some level of flexibility. That said, you know what would be a nice solution for the power creep problems? Small buffs for older characters that got left behind. It doesn't need to be an uber buff that makes Hydro Traveler powercreep Neuvillete, just a bit more damage here, a small QoL here, an adjust there and voilá.
I don't get why they refuse to buff old characters directly, like changing their actual stats. Nobody will complain if their old char gets buffed, and makes them more attractive for a re-run. I'll even go as far and say some kits need to be re-worked. Klee's kit for example. She's the oldest limited char after Venti, and her age shows hard. She needs off-field on her Q to be remotely useful, and her animations must be made more smoothly, so you can actually do her rotations more easily, which right now is hard AF. With Off-Field, she would be like a fusion of Kirara and Pyro Xingqiu, and with the right stats, could be an excelent Off-field Pyro Sub-DPS.
@@Bronze_Age_Sea_Person It's because there is actually a history of getting sued for buffing a unit in a Gacha game. Apparently ANY alterations on a unit in a Gacha are grounds for fraud/scam. I know it sounds stupid, but hey, it could be worse right?...... *Bunny girl flashbacks* 🫠
@@KawashiK so sad it has to be that way. would have loved to see a future were balance patches got rolled out like in the TCG mode for characters like Dehya and Kaveh etc... not only would it give players a better experience but hoyo could also make god bucks on characters that are now considered worthless/insta-skips. guess we just can't have nice things
People shouldn’t feel forced to pull for the newest units just to 3 star the newest abyss when the rewards for doing so are so terrible that it’s not even worth the stress. Pull who you like, ignore who you don’t, don’t get clickbaited by tiktok damage per screenshot showcases.
A thing need to be addressed. One of a team comp type who do so many random elemental damage to fill up the white bar is hyperbloom. Yes, your old-good hyperbloom. And many several specific team like keqing aggravate still can do just fine. Everything just still at the level where, "dendro can beat it" I don't talk about wolflord here. It's been in the abyss for several years, no powercreep indication by placing it again
I think the biggest factor is how much a power increase helps other characters. Dendro raised the ceiling but it also dragged a lot of weak units into relevance by having support units / mechanics for existing characters. Keq being a posterchild. Fontaine had units like Navia and Chiori that definitely felt better than Albedo etc, but could still help out mono geo teams if you wanted to play that, similar with Furina, even if they weren't the "best" teams. At least the strong Fontain set was health manipulation, which anyone past and future can potentially be made to utilize. Natlan feels particularly obnoxious to me because it's. 1) An artifact set that only Natlan characters use. 2) An Archon that's busted and explicitly works with Nightsoul, which only Natlan units have. That's inherently nepotistic and discriminatory to previous and future regions. It's like if Fontaine was built around the Ouisia mechanic, which I was glad to see they had the sense not to, but that seems to have been discarded in Natlan. Star Rail arguably has more powercreep but it regularly drags older units into relevance and I really haven't felt it remotely as badly as Natlan has felt.
if they go the ousia pneuma way then its way worse because when the last time you choose a character and think oh hes ousia, need to pick him. The state of ousia in the game is super forgettable and you pretty much can ignore it. and no star rail doesnt "regularly" do that. only jing yuan at best. No harmony came out that make people goes, wow now sushang is relevance again, wow jingliu relevance again.
@@omega6826 seele pops off every once in a while, and people are doomposting acheron when firefly and feixiao are the ones hoyo are selling and now acheron is kinda back again because AoE content is getting favored once more.
HSR relesing in 3.0 an artifact that only a few characters can utilize. And Archeron being a worse Mavuika. Archeron need two mediocre units from Nihility, meanwhile Mavuika wants two of the best supports that you can use with other characters. And no, just crazy and fans are using Seele. Meanwhile people use Hu Tao till this day. And no character used Hp manipulation since Clorinde/Sigewinne or since Furina If Bond of life doesen't count.
I like how different abyss enemies force you to conjure up a quirky team or re-challenge to 3 star specific chambers if you can't or don't want to run said quirky team. I also like buffs making some characters all of a sudden more useful for a patch. Just being able to national team one side and hyperbloom the other every single abyss is nice but it gets boring, so I enjoy the incentives for variety. If it's so restrictive that you can't reasonably clear a chamber without 1 specific character, then that's variety and therefore not good.
four star only clears are interesting esp when people further restrict the top 4* chars like bennett XQ and XL as well also another point in the video is about challenging content and wanting to it to be mechanically complex, which I’m curious to hear a dedicated video on what exactly that means since genshin combat isnt mechanically complex. Strongest teams are 3EQ and then hold/press left click (but there are definitely lots of creativity when you combine genshin combat + content). All in all I’m just curious to hear examples of what people want as challenging content
I’ve always been fine with Genshin not having hard content/content to really match the level of investment you can reach, because it meant everyone could play their faves. Some faves are good out the gate, others require some investment, but you could clear the content with anyone. They’re raising the ceiling but in a way that’s starting to leave characters completely behind, and I don’t like it. It may not affect me personally, I have a decent chunk of C6 5*, some 100+ individual copies of 5* weapons, and the artifacts to pay respect to my monetarily invested units - but the trade off has always been ”you’re never gonna get to have much time/fun with your beloved units but that’s because the ceiling needs to stay low so that everyone, no matter their mains, can reach the thresholds needed for all content.” And they’re breaking that second part of the bargain. And if I get annoyed by the restrictions (I HATE HYDRO IM NOT PLAYING HYDRO FUCK YOU HOYO I ALSO HATE PYRO), I can’t imagine how others feel. C6R5 Chiori and C4R1 YeLan laugh at the first half - but I don’t like YeLan. I do not WANT to play YeLan. She only has cons to buff onfield Kokomi. Theater is meant to be the element and horizontal investment check, Abyss is supposed to be the ”we suggest this but if you’re invested enough you can ignore it.” I just worry that if *I* feel the strain, then sane people who don’t swipe or spend a shit ton of time in the game must feel genuinely squeezed. Genshin has been a good middle ground for years (again I’m happy to trade my challenge as long as others can play their pookies) but this direction (more than just combat but I’ll shut up about that…..) is 1. Anti what Genshin has been for these years 2. Going to lose the majority of its player base. It’s silly. Whyever they thought they needed to fix what wasn’t broken is beyond me
I'm clearly in the minority with my hot take: I enjoyed the last Spiral a lot. It felt like the abyss that punished Cookie-cutter team building, and instead forced me to use some absolutely wild teams to clear. Mind you, I do have a C6R5 Furina, but I did swap her to an above average GT set and Fav sword, while not using the c6 infusion. And considering I am f2p (meaning most of my primogems went to that vertical investment) I'm not too bothered that I couldn't clear without her. But I found success with Chlorinde/Kazuha/Chiori/Kachina on side 1, on one of my full clears. Having to piece together a winning team felt like the challenge I've been dying for. I just wish they learned into this a bit more without excessively raising the HP of the enemies. That said, them adding back leylines disorders is an L in my book.
Curious about the C6R5 furina, how many pulls did it take you over how many reruns? you're an F2P so im assuming you skipped on most if not all fontaine characters to be able to afford it?
@Snek-t2n Took just shy of 1300 pulls to get C6R5 for me. I started in 1.6 and wished for the first time on her banner. Edit: Looked up on my paimon dot moe, it took 1220 wishes on her first banner to get. (Also got an R4 Donut, blegh)
biggest issue i have is just the stalling bosses do where they have crazy damage resist as they get up from idle position and bosses like wenut where its a waiting game
The reason why the papilla does not wipe you it's so that you can go to chamber 3 and come back for it with a different team. Many people seem to forget that resetting is a legit strategy. That way there are less teambuilding restrictions. Got my first 36 stats this abyss and made heavy use of that.
Even if the new carriers are Mavuika level, that's actually bad... that means that all the old carriers, even fontaine dps characters are gonna look weak. Which is really sadge.
I brute forced the Pappilla with mono geo. But that team is highly invested team. Itto with sig and great artifacts, c2 Zhongli, Chiori and c6 Gorou. It still required lots of resets perfect s and was right on the clock
Clearing Abyss with characters up until a certain version, like only 1.x characters is really fun, and puts into perspective when the meta defining units have been releasing during the lifespan of the game. You should try it sometime.
I recently decided to drop star Rail after that video that got somewhat viral about how story quest takes like 5 hours, of which only like 10 minutes are actual fights, plus how they are bufffing enemies tremendously to favor new characters. With genshin, I think I will still keep playing, but perhaps a bit more casually, and probably will stop buying the welkin moon.
The funniest thing is usually people will just chalk it up to "oh it's gacha that's just how it is". Coming from someone who's mainly played western AAA games this is just outrageous lol. You wouldn't catch 99% of the companies doing shit as egregious as this. It's like they're serving literal waste product on a silver plate but oh that's fine because I'm hungry and my taste buds have worn off anyways
I'm f2p, and I had problems clearing the abyss back in 1.0 and such, until inazuma drop, then I got raiden shogun, and since then, I never had troubles clearing a single abyss, not even now, not even when the abyss was with those pesky abyss lectors and their shields, I recently clear the current abyss 5.2/5.3 with 2 units per side, obviously I don't have a normal account because I being playing for 4 years, my neuvillette is top 1% I have constellations on some of my 5 stars, I have signature weapons, and most importantly, I have hands, yes I do have top of the meta units, but in all honestly, anyone with alhaitham, naiva, xiao, arlecchino, gaming, or full support national team with kazuha can clear the abyss, yes, the HP ceiling is getting higher, but it's just barely getting close to the top of optimization, and with stronger units like mavuika, citlali and xilonen, the abyss can barely keep up, now let's be fair though, you can play mavuika, without a single natlan character, I see one point of small contention is that new characters as ass without the new supports, obviously zajef didn't say mavuika, but it's clear he meant her, and let's be fair, put bennett, mavuika and the rest of the 4 stars from old, and she still hits for 400k nukes and donuts do around 100k damage, a mono pyro team does a lot, not as strong as mono pyro arlecchino, but better in aoe, normal attack mavuika does less damage sure, but the nuke is still good, not like it's gonna be difficult to clear content with her. I'm just saying people overblow that mavuika is restrictive, and she isn't she is self sufficient enough to work as a hypercarry, her skill alone can give her burst back at 100 fighting spirit and a few more with the donuts she makes, adding a natlan character simply guarantee max burst damage, and that's fine, but you don't need, I'm gonna triple crown her eventually, because her skill already does a lot of damage with the ring, and is only lvl 6, she may completely powercreep xiangling in that sense, but who knows.
Appreciate the yapping. For me, the powercreep that I consider the most toxic in Genshin is Neuvillette and it's not even close, but I can certainly see why people would see Mavuika that way too.
Powercreep discussions are always fascinating, especially in a game like Genshin where the balance can feel delicate. I love how this video brings in both sides of the argument, and honestly, I agree that while some powercreep is inevitable, the constant team restrictions make it harder to truly enjoy the newer characters. Also, shoutout to the editor for making the content super engaging!
8:26 Yeah I gotta say if they make it so people can't use their favorite characters or have fun all that's going to happen is people will start just dropping out of the game altogether, no matter how much they've invested in it previously. It's this kind of dumb greed that kills games.
LMAO and here I am wondering why 12-2 is so bloody hard! xD OFC after its wipe - which I waited out on the side - it also becomes more tanky! Makes me appreciate my Arlecchino even more tho, since she was able to clear it regardless with Bennet/Fischl and a C0 Chevreus. Thanks for letting me know! Also I really don't mind harder content - it's just as you said, it should MORE content, not old one getting impossible. A Floor 13 with like 50-100 Primos would be perfectly reasonable. IMO.
I kind of agree with this video but i also have a bit of a different perspective In my eyes because the abyss now resets once a month, I assumed that they make content more difficult to encourage you to take each chamber one by one,giving you more options to try different teams you've invested in which I think is kind of fun in a frustrating way In some ways in the previous abyss I enjoyed finding the best team for each chamber But with this current abyss I can also see your perspective in pushing us to get the new character for a 3 chamber clear with the same teams Do you think this abyss is more fun for newer players who change teams for each floor until they get two teams that can full clear?
Power creep must exist because players need a reason to pull for the character. So as long as gameplay is the primary factor in a player's decision to pull (which they ensure is the case because of how they design combat challenges), then a player needs a reason to pull this character instead of just keeping who they already have. That being said, yes the level of power creep lately has been pretty bad. But with THAT being said, my biggest issue with the Natlan era hasn't just been the "power creep", but the gross level of "integration" that has happened on all levels of gameplay. It's not just that the new characters are much stronger in combat. It's that not having the new characters is insufferable, while having the characters makes things trivial. Just like was shown, the Papilla is absolutely insufferable to fight without any Natlan characters, but if you have even 1 of the 5 star Natlan characters built it becomes extremely easy to deal with the void shield. But this also applies elsewhere too. Exploration and traversal in Natlan is also truly insufferable without having any of the Natlan characters. Then you add on how the new artifact sets are only usable with Natlan characters but are also absurdly strong. It's basically "Get the new characters or your life is going to suck" Edit: I would also add that this is something new and exclusive to Natlan. Even when they added new mechanics and strong characters in the past, they applied to everyone equally. If we look at the Arkhe alignment system from Fontaine, while it provided small benefits in combat or in puzzles, it was never a requirement. If we look at Marechaussee Hunter and Golden Troupe, while they are designed for Neuvillette and Furina, they can also work on everyone else too.
Natlan exploration ain't that bad without them tbh, the saurians are everywhere on the map I think the only place you need Chasca because Qucussaurus are awful to use is Ochkanatlan
Abyss is certainly getting more difficult in a 'unfun' way. I was still able to clear this one without to much trouble (Noelle+Furina on side one and a Father+Chevy team on side two). I did have to reset a couple of times to get through 12-2-2 (really hard without nightsoul) but other than that it was pretty manageable. It was only a few patches ago that I could still bring meme teams to abyss, but that seems to no longer be the case even with a four year old account with a moderate amount of spending. My catalyst only account went from being able to clear fairly easily to usually missing a couple stars. I could probably still get 36*s with enough resets but it isn't really worth it.
Maybe buff older units? That’s what FGO does to combat powercreep. Some units have gotten as many as 4 or 5 buffs, a whole rework of their kit because they were so bad. But who knows if Mihoyo would be opened to doing that. Oh well.
Spiral abyss has now checks for the horizontal (how many characters are built) and vertical( min maxed characters) building of your account. They add super high hp enemies, invulnerability, elemental resistance, can fly, can ho immune, tankier than ever, niche characters requirements. I would rather they add new content for flex than spiking current content difficulty. Spiral abyss for more vertical investment checks and the theatre for horizontal investment check. That being said, I really dont mind anymore what they do with floor 12 and the boss enemies. It went from ruin machine, to maguu kenki, wolf boss, to those inscareated beasts, ruin serpent, and now this papillo papilla.
my take is, the release of hyperbloom increases the damage floor, neuvillette raises it again, then with mavuika it raises the whole damage floor AND ceiling. sure they put restrictions in form of limited natlan charas but thats nowhere near enough to add the addition of this mavuika powercreep schtick with the abyss floor too.
I feel like powercreep only feels so bad in Hoyo games because of their refusal to simply buff old units directly. I always thought their way of buffing through new units and artifact sets was cool to some degree but it reaches a point where you simply cant do it as targeted anymore as it needs to be. You cant buff Yoimiya with a new character release or a new artifact if you want that buff to not also buff other units as well unless you make the new stuff so incredibly hyper specific that it would feel meaningless to everyone without the specifically buffed character. Other gacha games I play (or have played in the past) at some point all started directly buffing older units. If done well you dont leave old units behind and the powercreep issue just becomes slowly increasing numbers for both enemies and player units, which doesnt matter. It is like inflation. Prices going up slowly over time is not an issue and is even desiable in low amounts. But salaries have to keep rising as well. If inflation only ever increases the prices but the salraies only rise in the newly created jobs, people working the "old" jobs actively earn less and less over time until they cant afford anything anymore. Buff old units, Hoyo! Giving Yoimiya the dps of Arlecchino doesnt affect your sales of Maviuka when she still deals more damage than both. It simply keeps your customers happy and more likely to stick with the game when they actually use the characters they like.
The power creep issue hasnt affected me yet since I’m a veteran player with lots of options so my reaction to it is not nearly as big as it should be, I don’t like how blatant the power creep is and the team restriction is so not fun, but the satisfaction from clearing something so difficult is much bigger since it’s much more difficult, however at the end of the day I just want the powercreep creep to at least go back to before it was in natlan
I think 2024 revenue loss made Genshin Devs take some drastic decisions. IMO Natlan feels like they were made to squeeze the money out of players 1) Less male characters to carter to their majority fan base 2) Waifu archon like Raiden who made big bucks for them before but not a well written Archon like Furina 3) Night soul mechanism is created just to lock people to get more characters from Natlan 4) Theater is created to make you pull more characters It screams We want the money, Meanwhile ZZZ is also losing money and player base but Hoyo is treating ZZZ player base extremely nicely and Genshin player base like shit
Genuinely asking is there an actual tangible source for this losing players and revenue thing or it's just revenue speculation sites and traction counts on websites?
@@pyronado4320Revenue was down across the whole industry really, especially CN market not looking too hot. Newer hyped games like zzz and wuwa launched with way less revenue than hsr even.
@@pyronado4320 If i remember CN players use hourly usage rate of the game to figure out the revenue, Higher hours of usage rate = More revenue and Tiktok is their benchmark to reach and Genshin has been failing to surpass Tiktok usage rate which they used to do before but now they dont especially with Natlan characters this is what started the conversation about revenue loss. The only way to know the accurate numbers and 'Tangible source" is when Hoyo releases the number which they wont (Also there has been drop on every gacha games in general)
Raiden is the waifu anime archetype of unapproachable and scary company boss but when in home she's a klutz and has a hard time doing basic homechores. That type is very popular among anime fans.
I'm both a day one genshin and star rail player, very high investment on a lot of characters, and have full cleared all the endgame content in both games, and i feel like genshin's powercreep bothers me more than star rail's because of the restrictions and less the HP/Res inflation. With genshin, especially in Natlan, there are so many bosses that feel impossible without a natlan character, so you pigeonhole yourself into one of a few types of teams, and other than kinich, none of the natlan units are particularly fun for me. In star rail, I main boothill, which means he works well in 2/3 of the endgame modes (PF, AS, and MoC) so even if I can't use him in the current PF or MoC, I can always use him for AS. In genshin, Diluc is my favorite unit, but there isn't a single team or mode or boss that makes the Diluc i like feel good. Xianyun helped a lot with his plunge teams, but i like the version of diluc that is E>Auto>E>Auto>E>Auto, and that playstyle can barely keep up. I used to be able to consistently 3* clear with him back in the 3.x patches, but trying to use him in current abyss feels so frustrating, so i end up just playing neuvillette so avoid the headache.
I feel like the regional meta stuff is in part due to how much new content affects older characters. I don’t think they actually want older characters to “catch up,” they want you to get new characters and keep playing (giving them money). Sumeru did buff electro through reactions, but to a degree introducing an entirely new element means grinding for new goblets and the dendro artifact set to get access to that buff. Fontaine built a lot of weapons and mechanics around hp, something that only healers really directly scaled around before, which made it so you need to build new artifacts for a stat that’s not attack. The Neuma and whatever it was called were never required but did help. Now I genuinely think they’re running out of strategies to avoid new artifacts and weapons that have scaling or affects that accidentally buff older units “too much.” The Natlan artifact domain is a pretty egregious example of this to be honest, they just said “screw it, unless you’re explicitly from this region you can’t use the set bonus :P.” I hope cold sheer comes back in sneznaya but only for units that come from other nations 😐
Really your whole point, which I agree with, was that the units aren't getting stronger, but new content requires new characters to do and can't realistically be done with old characters
@@el7284yup. I've said it before gacha games can't be balanced. They need to incentive people to pull for reasons beyond just attractive design. Because there are only two ways the content can end up. Either you keep the power level low for all units to compete which makes it easy and pointless to pull or you ramp it up and make it so that you need to pull or consider pulling new characters to make it easy.
@themoistepicgamer lets see you clearing the latest event with the hardest difficulty with hutao without natlan characters, I did it easily with mavuika tho
This discussion comes out every time we get a new powerful character - and this a fair discussion to have . But every time a new character comes out, if it mid quality, CCs and reviewers slate them off. But when some like Mavuika and Neuvillette come out, reviewers can not say "MUST PULL" enough times.
poor Yoimiya doesn't even get to be part of the thumbnail
fr😂😂
Yoimiya has been powercrept since her release
trash since release lmao
I love her as a character, but she's so fucking trash and boring to play
Lyney left out too
And Pyro MC. 😬
I remember when 50k per charge attack was considered high damage. lmao
And now if your character only does 50K p/CA it’s garbage 😭
I dont care abt HP or number powercreep, what I care abt is team resitrictions. Dendro raised the ceiling when it was introduced, but it also helped older teams catch up, miko, keqing, etc etc. Furina n Neu raised the ceiling, but they made healers relevant, and other Fontaine characters made overload, geo, etc etc better as well. So what did Natlan n Nightsoul do, but force u to build newer characters to play their shoehorned mechanic?
Natlan the Nation of war ❌
Natlan the nation of greed ✅
It forces you to read. If you spend half a second not whining then you would see that even Gary Stu Lizard Neuv can clear it. Weak characters like Yoimiya are just built weak and thats a fact. It's like how no one would use Frostleaf to argue about powercreep in Arknights because she was designed by a drunk hobo since day 1
@@nonamepasserbya6658 People still paid money to get those characters, they shouldn't be unusable in content just because of newer content.
Nation of Racist (Nah Im not a woke crying about not enough black or stuff)
They cooked some artifacts just for Natlan characters
They cooked some weapons just for Natlan characters
They cooked some mechanics just for Natlan characters
They cooked some enemies just for Natlan characters
AND THEY COOKED A ANCHON JUST FOR NATLAN CHARACTERS
LIKE THAT THE MOST BLAND AND BORING WAY TO POWERCREEP IN A GACHA GAME WTH??
@@nonamepasserbya6658 no, you argument is irrelevant. What OP was trying to say was previous nations were pumping out strong units (Nahida, Furina) that helped weaker units (Kuki, Noelle) to rise, not how weak units can never be good.
Pretty ironic of you to accused them of not reading while you missed the whole point yourself. And the Frostleaf argument is even more irrelevant because of how different Genshin and Arknights's meta is.
I’m kinda ok with tankier floors but the seventy layers of team restrictions is painful
Yeah that's the garbage dude
Makes bwain hurt?
@@rainofkhandaq6678 how would you even come to this conclusion
Vape teams with a diverse damage profile and some shred are borderline impervious to any restrictions.
I can't remember a single Abyss cycle that forced me to swap off my usual Hu Tao Furina Yelan team.
I believe the restrictions are Mihoyo's response to the complain at 5:02: "How do we make players play characters that have less QoL than Neuvillette and less damage than Neuvillete? Let's put in mechanics that restrict Neuvillette!" And you can kinda see it in the upcoming abyss which is unfavorable toward Neuvillette unless you run some unorthodox teams.
All these strong pyro characters and they still can't powercreep the true pyro archon, bennett.
The character that can’t work on all teams?
@@user-ot4ly9dp1c does he have to? :D
@@user-ot4ly9dp1c bruh
You dare say that to my queen xiangling!!!!???
She is polearm archon @@user-iu3kz4hc5s
The "building characters not for progress but to not regress" hits hard for Star Rail. As someone whose been able to clear MoC and AS with only a few resets in the past but needing dozens of resets for the most recent MoC and AS, I hate this.
I just decided to not bother. got 1 less star. 1 try. Whatever. I will not allow a company to dictate me what I like, who should I pull or what should I play
If it becomes too scumy or annoyng I will just quit. we have Ananta/Wuwa + some other great games. Hoyo can f off. They have been a major dispointment lately
Yeah HSR situation is just painful. Lately I didn't have any issues because after saving for the longest time I quickly got all the optimal characters (E0, some S1) and suddenly I could even auto and still get full stars.
But to keep it up I'd have to keep pulling for the most optimal characters and their LCs regardless of whether I like the characters or not. And then watch them become irrelevant a few patches later. What's the point?.. I'm done with that race.
Genshin is much better with that for now. But it's been getting greedy faster than ever before so who knows what's next.
@@ixirionwise words. Just quit alright, instead of yapping constantly to a game company who doesn't even listen to their players for 4 years straight. It's like these players are clowns for complaining to a wall for 4 years 💀💀💀
@ I will quite HSR after 3.0. The reason I still played for almost a year is that I liked the lore and the story.
Also soundrtack and cooleness moments.
I find the actual gameplay in HSR is one of the worst combatwise
I got pulled jade in large part to help with pure fiction, and the second last one is the first time I gave up actually trying to get all the rewards. Im doing ok with acheron and firefly in MoC, but every single PF is a struggle every time. Gear requirements are a huge bitch and the increased amount of substats makes it feel impossible to actually get good gear. Multiple patches doing the same domain trying to get something as simple as a 3 liner relic feels impossible.
I do appreciate how the editors beautifully makes his Yap much more digestible
cutting out the ten second pauses between every other word makes a big difference LMAO
@@VeroGDLKKinda hate it when watching live stream of zajef
yap is like a bad way to call it I mean he also put in so much effort and like in the title itself it says discussion right so what do you expect
fan or hater?
@@НиколайМалышев-с9п I mean, it takes time to think and more time to correctly express your thoughts xD
This is the result of being non-scripted. Having an edited video is much of the point of his yapping
I saw this in a previous video comment section:
"Powercreep is like inflation. A little bit is healthy since it encourages competition, but too much is bad since it renders characters obsolete."
The more "free" pulls a game gives out, the faster it needs to powercreep to compensate for it. It's very much similar to how printing out free money causes faster inflation in an economy.
Gacha systems produce products with a perceived value that people are willing to trade resources for, and thus is an economy. All economies are subject to the same laws at the end of the day.
No one is obsolete, this isn't pvp.
@@rainofkhandaq6678 tbf most characters in HSR become obsolete in less than a year due to the massive amount of HP inflation on enemies
genshin has been great at keeping the DPS req on abyss low enough for anything to clear, but the trend is definitely getting noticeable
@@rainofkhandaq6678 Beat the current Abyss with Amber and I'll believe you that no one is obsolete.
A bit inflation is not good, it's just another covered tax that favors politicians and harm the most poor people.
I think the most frustrating thing about powercreep isnt that the new abyss is harder hp wise but more like the new abysses will be more restrictive and those restrictions can be solved by pulling thats just such an ass move tbh
That’s gacha 101. What HoYo did differently is to make the initial feels good of Genshin last much longer than with other gacha games. This made the game a part of our life and we’re now too deep in to be insulted by exponential powercreep and DPS requirements inflation.
It sucks that genshin is slowly becoming pay to win.
@@momohirai6604 P2W what? 60 primos on floor 12?
To add another perspective (not mine, I saw it elsewhere). Even if you come at the discussion from the standpoint "but the Abyss is optional, 90% of the game is exploration"; there's *still* power creep. Before Natlan there was typically just one, maybe two, characters per region that granted new movement mechanics (Venti, Kazuha, Wanderer, Xianyun) but now in Natlan every character that's been released has nearly render that actual act of exploration useless and obsolete.
I think this is what's truly going to be the "back in my day" boomer talk of Genshin. Circle jerking about how long it took us to scale mountains, having to worry about stamina, or finding those specific little juts to rest or reposition ourselves.
It’s just sad that their re@ction to “we need more endgame” is “what if we make abyss extremely unfun?”
Well, it made people shut up about floor 13, so w for hoyo I guess
Can't wait for multiple waves of Wayobs and Lectors 😊
When i say more endgame I mean something like a 10 min long fight against a 30m hp boss or something like that in abyss most of the time you do max 2 or 3 cycles and clear a chamber that's not satisfying enough for me
@@MostSaneBuddy that idea absolutely sucks, and you're living proof of why they shouldn't listen to every bit of feedback
Abyss was never fun. Its bad content designed to force an arbitrary DPS + optional element check to try and get players to pull.
Its something you do once per month for the rewards.
This is why I was so pissed when I saw that Mavuika was just a BETTER pyro DPS when Arlecchino released not too long ago. They had the choice to continue with the Archon universal support trend but no, gotta get that money. They made her the new ceiling for DPS and created problems in her kit (aka reliance on 5 star Natlan characters) to sell the solution (Citlali / Xilonen). The fact that they chose to put both Citlali and Mavuika together in a 21 days time frame is the peak of gacha greed.
😂
My guy you just posted the most contradictory statement.
Mavuika isn't a better dps than arle she's an alternative.
Mavuika has a high ceiling but requires natlan characters to reach it while arle can reach it a lower ceiling more consistently on her own.
That's called balancing the game.
If mavuika was able to attain her current power without naltan then she's broken.
@@rushalias8511 part you forget is that the best team in the game IS mavuika, with xilonen and citlali also arguably being superior to previous established supports like furina and kazuha as it currently stands, it's not a nilou situation where a restriction exists but isn't a required restriction because nilou isn't a needed unit just a luxury, fighting spirit is restriction with..the strongest character and supports in the game that have more team options that you'd think
It was for balance everything if Mavuika able to use without Natlan, we probably should called her power creep. + Doesn't need Two Natlan support you can play her just for Xilonen with Vape Furina.
@@xksys yes the supports are superior but they still have niches that don't cover what the others can do.
Furina benefits and boots hp manipulation making healing viable.
Citali shred hydro and pyro and applies cryo.
Xilonen is a buffer like kazuha who was relased near the tail end of version 1.x however she's geo and chain elemental reactions or group enemies for cc.
Support units are meant to be flexible and interchangeable.
Considering it took nearly 4 version to power creep kazuha should say a lot and even then it's only power crept in a certain aspect.
As it stands you can still run mavuika for good dmg without those units...but they are just the ideal.
I'm currently running mavuika with bennett, sucrose and diona and she's doing decent dmg still.
in every other patch cycle, even as they raised the dps ceiling, they introduced things to raise the floor. 1.x and 2.x we were mostly finalizing team and tc norms. 3.x introduced dendro, which raised the power ceiling for so many characters. furina's hp manipulation -> buffing in 4.x made a lot of healers like jean relevant, and xianyun plunge opened things up for any melee character. so in 4.x, even as we were getting strong dps units like neuvi and navia, we were also getting buffs to older units like noelle and diluc. in natlan, it feels like the mechanics are designed specifically to restrict older units. furina's best teammate was neuvi, but she also had synergies with characters like noelle. neuvi was the best dps, but he worked with basically every character in game. mavuika works best with natlan characters, and is heavily punished for not having natlan characters, which is shitty game design imo
Spot on
Yeah, exactly. I'm fine with my older units being bad in comparison as long as I can see them growing. Yeah i didnt upgrade my account by pulling Neuvillette, but I did upgrade it by farming new set for Xiao. I'm still having smth to do and keeping up with hp inflation.
In 5.x you pull for new characters, multiple of them, or you not building, not farming, barely exploring. And for the sake of some sad irony Natlan characters are most... lets say questionable in terms if design gameplay, aesthetic, so its easy to not like them
Even leaving all that aside
All
The
Bosses
Are
RACIST
MY HEART BURNS WITH A BURNING HATRED FOR TENEBROUS PAPILLA
@@haghandler just use double hydro hyperbloom for papilla, ez win.
@@what-you-want-of-me-yt I think the worst flaw was not make Pyro MC solve these Natlan issues.
Imagine if Traveler was a Xiangling sidegrade, but each time someone triggered Nightsoul using Traveler's off-field E, Traveler accumulated Nightsoul points, and when Traveler activated E and some Natlan char used transmission, they'd get that, almost like an extra Phlogiston bar. This way, Non-Natlan chars would help recover the nightsoul bar for Natlan chars, Natlan chars would have the same strength they have in Natlan, and Traveler could synergize them all with Mavuika too since Non-Natlan chars would be creating Nightsoul points for her in the end via Pyro Traveler.
Also, this way, you would finally bench Xiangling too, while using Natlan chars at their full potential like in Natlan.
while we're on this topic, can i just say how much i hate the nightsoul mechanic. it's such a blatant cash-grab with all its restrictions. it's basically hyv's way of making new characters with mediocre kits that get carried by scroll. that's also the reason why mavuika didn't enable nightsoul for the rest of the characters like furina did for MH - if you could make nightsoul work on fischl, would you ever use ororon?
i mean, yeah? i get what you're saying but ororon's whole thing is buffing electro-charged teams isn't it? can't you just run them together?
A better example would have been pyro mc vs every other pyro support, or kachina vs literally everyone else lol. Ororon is actually way stronger than fishl in a lot of teams (for example chasca, electrocharge and mavuika overload) due to his electro application being more frequent and most importantly: AoE that fishl completely lacks.
But yes, I agree with the statement generally speaking
I think that's a good balancing strategy though. Moving some of the supporting capability to the set means you can't stack their effects. The energy restore from the set is also a cool way to make synergy within the nation imo. The problem is basically entirely mavuika.
Well yeah. They're avoiding powercreep artifact sets by making an obvously stronger artifact set limited to characters with specialized abilities. Otherwise, what good is marechausse hunter or prior support artifact sets if you can just put codex or cinder city on everyone? Plus cinder city is limited in itself so its not that spectacular anyways. Non-natlan characters wouldn't really take advantage of its 2pc since nightsoul burst is influenced by characters from natlan, not characters that use nightsoul, since Traveler cant solely enable nightsoul burst. We would need a set/weapon that forces nightsoul burst the way Xilonen does.
Glad there’s some reasonable folks here who can see other reasonings other than the typical repeated “cash grab” complaining 👏.
Also turtlecamera clears abyss with starter characters.... Which actually requires a lot of skills...
Definitely deserves a praise
yeah and it makes him completely burnt out too
a raise?
Everyone painstakingly optimizing their favourite abyss teams: Hoyo consistently adding new, convoluted mechanics to obsolete your favourite playstyle
When older units get weaker, more clunky to play compare to newer units yet they still cost the same, that's something I have problems with. You will inherently be at a disadvantage for wanting older units despite paying the same amount as everyone else. It's shitty. This combines with the fact that Hoyo refuses to buff, no, not even fix some of the gameplay issues that older units have really sour my desire to get them. With how Natlan does things, exclusive mechanics, exclusive artifact sets and now exclusive archon, Snehznaya will be even worse now that people are accustomed to these QOL movement and easy of dealing damage and defintely won't settle for less.
Yeah, but who are you competing against anyways? 😂
@DonKey496 against the game?
fr, we really need a balance patch where Hoyo updates some passives, some slight multiplier increases for older units, and in some cases rework the mechanics to the point they've cut out the jank (yes I'm looking at Yoimiya for all of these).
@@TheJH1015 they really do. Some newer characters have all the QOL of older characters lack and deal more damage too. There is no incentive, no trade off where you sacrifice aoe damage for single target when newer characters can do both better. You can't trade survivability for more damage either because Neuvillette is likely to do more damage anyway. When the game releases a jack of all trade yet master of everything, the next thing they gonna do is to release the same thing but even better
@ mhm. But I also had in mind other minor updates like for example Rosaria's C2? it extends her burst duration from 8 to 12 seconds, but not the duration of her Ascension 4 passive (which buffs crit rate for teammates for 10 seconds). meaning you have 2 seconds of her burst uptime without the crit rate buff... it just feels sloppy and an oversight that could EASILY be fixed without anyone crying about it.
In the end, the Genshin Killer is Mihoyo's greed all along.
Wise words
lmao they arent stupid, everything they do is to increase their profits
@@ishananchit677 lmao they are stupid because they actually decreased their sails in china by 60% in 2024 and mavuika is the least profitable archon banner globally
@@ishananchit677 well a lot of companies are also wanting to increase their profit so they do shitty shits and many of them died because of it
Well, they're a company. Thats a common things, but yeah maybe thats the right word
The best abysses are the ones in which you can have fun while playing different teams
that's pretty much what IT is now.
which only exists like before a year ago
some enemies force you to run certain teams and make it feel horrible if you don’t. though it’s a lot worse in star rail
Funny how we discussing about Genshin powercreep issue meanwhile Zyox is still farming Vermillion which was released before sumeru om
Because powercreep is comparatively new in genshin, it started happening once the previous CEO stepped down, I don't see a lot of comments mentioning this
Bro I'm farming Crimson Witch since 1.0. I'm so COOKED
@@banjoowo4001 Not really. Modern teams don't really hit that much harder than older teams if you fight Masanori. Genshin mostly just restricts, rather than powercreep, characters as time goes on.
Almost every character is heavy nowadays - Venti would still be OP were this not the case. Venmorgana and Ayaka freeze don't do so well because every boss is immune to CC. National teams still clear Abyss 12 with ease when the mobs don't have high pyro resistance.
That said, the restrictions have indeed gotten tighter. That's expected, as the cast of characters grows, restrictions have to become tighter in order to have the same effect. The Papilla is the most restrictive boss we've ever had, but back in 2.1 the Thundering Manifestation was just as restrictive when we did not have so many good ranged damage sources.
@@banjoowo4001 finally someone else noticing! There's a significant drop in overall Quality in Genshin too, the direction the game has at the moment since Natlan came out and the inconsistent Rewards! All since Da Wei stepped up. We praised him, only to fall right into the trap of Genshin *actually* falling off.
@Goatkusun maybe not the best but at least he kept the game's premise and direction the same...
HARD agree on the restrictions thing
especially this abyss, the amount of archetypes you need just to be able to clear it make your teams lineups look like imaginarium teams
Tbh I just do multiple runs, 3 runs with 3 different teams just for each floor to get 3 stars. I cba to mash together a team and try to make it work in one go.
@opernce That's what I ended up doing for 36 stars too. I used arle for the second half but got annoyed with the drake so I swapped to a random ass raiden aggravate team with fischl
What archetypes lmao, I’ve only had 5 different abyss teams in the whole 4 and half years this game has been out and I’ve been 36 starring since 1.2
@Somehuy77-kp4rz that sounds super fun and enjoyable to play. The same shit over and over again.
@opernce I would call you the r slur but TH-cam would block my comment.
Crazy how the dude I’m replying to is complaining about needing “so many archetypes” and then I disprove it, then you move the goalpost to “you play the same thing over and over”.
Ignoring the fact that I never said I couldn’t play different characters lmao. Reading your other comment about needing 3 different teams sounds like a skill issue to me.
I knew this was gonna happen honestly. We got the artifact transmuter, 5 star selector, ect. A bunch of free stuff that "the other gatchas had". The downside is that, yeah we are getting what the stuff from the other gatchas, and that includes the powercreep.
HSR powercreep speed makes Genshin powercreep look like small potatoes lol
@@agzane268 To be fair with HSR, they do release relics and units that make old units more relevant. And their player avatar character is actually cracked in terms of utility, or at least has been for the last two iterations. Like what happened with JY first getting a relic set and then a huge buff with Sunday. (Though that in and of itself is insidious because now you need a 5 star to make your old 5 star good.)
I think the only units that are super hard core struggling right now that aren't a Standard 5 Star or 4 Star are Seele, Blade, and Jingliu. More Blade and Seele than Jingliu though if a quick look at Prydwen is any indication. Dot is apparently going to get more support down the line so Black Swan and Kafka are kinda mid tier right now and Silver Wolf got a buff due to Hoyo finally getting their heads out of their butts and releasing old 4 star cones in the Herta shop.That said I fully expect in a year that all of those characters might be in dire straights if they don't get the DHIL or JY treatment.
@@CeruleanRoguenah, HSR feels like ass that it’s so inconvenient that no one really wants to use them. It’s ass.
@@agzane268 i think people forget the reason why genshin's power creep isn't as bad as hsr is because of elemental reaction which elevates a lot of factors when it comes to damage, while hsr on the other hand is unapologetically a turn-based game and is much harder to do different kit that isn't identical to existing ones.
@@CeruleanRogue they do make old unit more relevant? name another character than jing yuan
Yoige didn't even make it to powercrept thumbnail Sadge
Yeah cuz she was already worse than Hu Tao when she came out
@Doobydoe No she wasn't. They had the exact same times. Exactly. The. Same. Both used vape or melt. Both used Zhongli
She got powercrept quite a few patches before she even became playable
@@touchedme1637Hu Tao was more fun. Funcreep is reallll
No best girl creep yet though. Yoige still #1
I think with the amount of characters in these days, they should make a new floor that requires 3 teams instead of 2. With less restrictions ofc cause the elemental check, bow check and NS check in this abyss is ridiculous.
That's what the Theater is about...
It requires way more characters than the Abyss, and much better build. I had to dust off some of my 1.X characters to clear the previous season.
And it's not the dps check garbage that Abyss is.
They've had events before where you build 3 teams, and one of the characters can remain for the next team (so it doesn't feel like shit when Bennet or Furina exist in like over half the viable teams), I'm sure they could make an interesting end-game mode around that. As long as it doesn't force cursed teams, we have theater for that already...
Just wait until their release new labyrinth event like
@@OnigoroshiZero IT has elemental restriction so no. You literally can't use some of your characters unlike abyss
@@OnigoroshiZero Theater was a fialure
i just cant be bothered to do floor 12 anymore.
I agree with the overall sentiment in this video. I just want to mention that it's not the first time that Hoyo pushed people to pull characters from the same region to make their teams. Natlan is only more explicit about that in text, which makes it look more scammy, but in practice it's been here for a while. For example, most characters from Sumeru wanted Nahida for their best teams to pop off, which made her feel like a must pull for a while, while all the abysses had blessings for dendro reactions (not unlike Nightsoul next). Furina was also a paradigm for anyone wishing to pull for a healer, and Fontaine released two 5 star healers (Xianyun and Sigewinne) while Baizhu had his first rerun with Furina herself, not to mention that most Fontaine dpses had self-healing properties that synergized with Furina. And in early Genshin there was such practices too, like pairing Ganyu with Venti or Ayaka with Shenhe, etc.
I do agree with Furina and Nahida but they are nowhere near as restrictive as Mavuika. Dendro teams do need nahida to reach their peak potential but you could actually play them with any dendro character, same goes to furina teams as we already have plenty of healers available but again she's not necessary. The problem with mavuika is, you literally cannot play her without natlan characters, yes she can recharge her burst but its so slow any other dendro team or hydro team would actually be a better option and get faster clear time. Its so restrictive for no reason and it forces you to pull other characters.
Also Fontaine has maréchaussée, which basically requires Furina for non-Fontaine characters
@@brliron6538 Still not as strict as nightsoul. MH works perfectly fine on Xiao, and on pretty much anyone if you're fighting rifthounds...
I genuinely hate all the purple natlan abyss enemies. They were already annoying asf in the overworld and they are even more annoying in abyss
Those enemies get shredded by chasca, which sucks ik what you mean most other characters who aren’t from natlan struggle against purple enemies.
Notice how the thumbnail doesn't include Yoimiya Sneak +1
The trifecta of Hoyo's most recent titles are all having a "powercreep" discussion at the same time. That feels like more than coincidence.
Genshin, HSR, and ZZZ all have gameplay and situations that make each discussion different, but the pervasiveness of the discussion leads me to believe there is something happening on the company level. A greater push to squeeze their games is in play. The combination of rapidly pushing up numbers, along with ham-fisted gameplay adjustments that are no longer asking you to pull the solutions, is corroding their games.
Last year was tough for most gachas in China. Their economy is tanking right now, so maybe the money guys there started pressuring.
@@Bronze_Age_Sea_Person Big companies are always in an endless pursuit of higher profit, so it wouldn't surprise me. You'd think making millions off virtual product and fake scarcity wouldn't require such heavy-handed greed, but humanity is like that.
Oh no its not. They have absolutely decided to double down in genshin. Star rail has been at it since sparkle and honestly it already began with dan heng and jing liu. Zzz i stopped in 1.2 so so clue.
@@mangshu21 hsr has had power creep since the beginning ngl
Leave zzz alone bruh. Zzz literally still on good track so far and very positive especially 1.4 patch
It is indeed getting really hard to beat Abyss with styles. The inflated HP literally prevents many unorthodox teams just because they struggle to meet the minimum DPS check without the quality units.
I pretty much share the sentiment of the video. Very nice content, please keep it up : )
I think the best way to word this is that abyss content is difficult,not challenging. And there's a fine line between those 2
What players want is challenging content that makes them have fun planning around it and playing actually well by utilising the mechanics the game has.
What hoyo has been doing is adding "difficult" content by simply bumping up the HP numbers and locking defeating certain enemies behind having certain characters. So basically a nearly direct paywall to actually clearing content.
This isn't too bad now but this sets a bad future precedent of needing the recent units to actually clear rather than using your faves....and i hope we don't get to that point anytime soon
thing is, with the tenebrous enemies, fischl, and burning are actually better than using a natlan chara against them lol.
@lolidemon3163 yeah which is why its not bad right now but i wouldnt be surprised if they make an enemy that has a mechanic that's only easily bypass-able by premium 5 stars
@@lolidemon3163 also HOLY based name
I think people forget something else. This is a gacha game. It's main focus is to sell characters to players.
The issue with enemy design in gacha is that expecting a balance design is near impossible due to very randomness of it all.
Either you can design the game with the assumption that players have only the free units gained through the game outside of the gacha. In which case you make it easy for anyone who has additional units.
Or you make the game with the assumption they have gacha units in which case you start running into problems like accounting for players who don't have said units.
From a design standpoint the easiest solution is to make all the characters have a base line interaction with the enemy but that brings another issue in regard to how they design characters to feel different and unique.
The issue of power creep is unavoidable for gachas regardless of what they do because you either get too challenging or too borrowing.
Any true compromise such as giving the player every units to try and clear the content is also a point against the company as then you won't be buying characters.
No matter what people say there just isn't a realistic solution to the issue of power creep that genshin hasn't already tried.
It is the nature of the game to change with each patch and characters will fluctuate as such.
@@rushalias8511 they can still control the rate. Genshin IMO has been doing a good job of keeping newer units and content balanced. Almost too much because people have quite due to no incentive to pull newer units. Which is personally why i am fine with genshin speeding up powercreep a little unless it gets to a HSR level point but that wont happen anytime soob
There is one thing that evaded this discussion which I think that is a much more worrying aspect of the game, which is that Genshin DOES NOT put old limited characters into the standard character pool. If the 5 stars that you could get by losing the 50-50 were actually old carry units like Ganyu, Hu Tao, Childe or many of the older carries who have gotten powercrept but that are still decent enough to clear the abyss, then maybe a lot of people would find the abyss to be much easier. Those characters have had many reruns and I feel like there is no reason why Hoyo shouldn't have put them into standard already.
In Arknights, when you fail to get the character that you want, you are still very likely to get a character that is really good because the standard pool is constantly evolving and changing
I've said something similar before and the push back always baffles me. If you won't rerun a character because they're unprofitable, then just put them in Standard. Sigewinne, Albedo, Eula, Shenhe, etc... I'd argue it's so much worse leaving them as limited but refusing to rerun them because that means new-ish players will never even get the chance to see what they're about. It's been almost two god damned years since we last saw Shenhe. I bet there are players that are AR60 who have never seen a banner of hers.
they promised that in the anniversary stream and I'm still waiting, apparently Mizuki is standard so here's hoping she gets added alongside at least a few liyue/inazuma 5 stars
If Hoyoverse plans to go down this path of horizontal investment with some degree of vertical investment, we need more ways of obtaining characters. Along with what you suggested, there is also the fact that the four stars in the starglitter shop haven't changed since the start of the game. Despite being a long time player, I still don't have certain characters (Kuki for hyperbloom, c6 sara for Raiden hyper carry).
I would love this, but I think that there are legal issues with a character being advertised as limited (unlike characters like Dehya who were explicitly going on the standard banner) and then putting them on standard, unfortunately. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, though!
@@SnazzySitara I am playing Reverse1999, another Chinese gacha. They put newly released characters on their standard pool three patches after their rate-up banner, so there is precedent. After all, the limited-time banners increases your chance of getting the featured character anyway. I doubt anyone would willingly pull on standard to take their chances at getting a limited character with the odds stacked against you.
If they implement a system like this, losing a 50/50 wouldn't feel too bad for the players, and it gives them more characters to use for Abyss and Theatre. At least with that system, their restrictions would feel more justified because we have a bigger toolbox to tackle the challenges they throw at us.
I think the most frustrating thing about that last abyss was how the much both sides would like to run teams that want bennet. It really felt like the devs were rubbing the collective disappointment over mavuika not being the pyro support we were all hoping for into our faces :(
Furina is 10 times more infuriating but you and the rest of Bennett haters just lover her sob excuse that much. Playing Chasca without her is a nightmare. That should be illegal
I didn’t use Bennett at all, you problem?
I just want to see how far they can go with powercreep when Sneznhaya arrives lol
C'mon, Skirk is around the corner, she will powercreep Mavuika in less than six months 🤣
@@rsstello she is not going to be pyro looser
Thats not their point, numb nuts. They meant shes most likely gonna powercreep Mavuika no matter their element. @@Xotwod-t8k
@@rsstelloif anything, Skirk deserves to be a powercreep.
Cryo DPS in the game rn are mid af
@@rsstello the fact that you think skirk is pyro makes your opinion invalid entirely.
All we can do is pray that they dont keep releasing units like Mavuika and Neuvillette lol
arlechinno and mualani
ESPECIALLY Mavuika. Enemy designs and waves will be horrendous if they release more characters like her.
@@PeterSmith-y7q both arle and mualani are harder to play than neuv and mav. their strength comes not only from dmg but also from qols
@@zeckrincuff3159 why would waves be harder because of mav and not neuv?? in 4.7 we literally had 4 waves and it was harder to clear without units like neuv who is very good in multiwave content
@@lupi3606I guess it's not specifically wave content I mean. It's more the room that would be available for restrictions that characters like Mavuika could easily take care of on top of having the potential DPS + AOE requirements. Being less flexible than Neuv makes it even worse.
I believe and hope strongly that no one will out dps mauvika. Every archon is the best in that archetype, venti has the best crowd control, zhongli the biggest shield, raiden the best battery, nahida the best reaction enabler, furina the best buffer/hp manip. Pyro has always been the damage role, the on field dps atk scaling role, it makes sense that the archon would just be the one gigantic damage unit in the game and i fully expect the cryo archon to have some insane crit ability like granting guaranteed crits while under her ult or something like that
Honestly dont care if there are new pyro damage dealers. I really just want a good support that can escape bennets circle or xianglings application
I dont think mavuika especially with xilo + citlali will be replaced in long time lol
Mavuika is powerful in different areas both on and off field. Even if she is power crept as on field dps she has a role now as a good off field pyro applied for rever melt and forward vape teams as well as burgeon.
Or cryo archon possible not just give Crit buff but can give you Permanently Freeze that able to frozen Bosses in chamber (She also buff shattered damage, now shattered hit 100% chance to crit)
idk the fact that they tease nod-krai having ppl with special power screaming a new gameplay just like in fontaine and natlan lmao. i wont be surprised if they would be just like natlan at that point forward. i hope the community is strong enough to suggest hoyo not going into that direction
Please make more videos about general Genshin topics. Your early video on why "main DPS" is a bad term is probably my favorite Genshin video ever.
One of the praises I had for the game was that power creep was minimal to non-existent. I don't mind it if the difficulty is not tied to whether you have the newer units or not, but as it stands it seems like it's going into the direction of needing to have newer units to clear the hardest things, not yet but it is evident that that design philosophy is being pushed faster and faster.
But which contents? Coz the Abyss is just avoided by the majority.
While many complained about the climbing mechanics of the Secret Source Automaton needing Natlan characters, the thing could just be brute forced from below. I broke the pillars with just a lvl 40 Kachina but mostly she remained unused.
The latest weekly boss was also met with disdainfor requiring Natlan/Nightsoul mechanics. But after seeing people wipe it down with Hyperbloom or any team that deals lots of elemental attacks, I just attributed it to my own skill issue. There's also the free Kachina and Pyro traveler for the majority of the users with bad gacha luck.
Ah maybe let's wait another abyss since we doesn't need new unit to deal with current abyss.
@@jiffonbuffo ... there's climbing mechanics for the Secret Source Automaton? I've never seen it live long enough to encounter those, even in abyss. And that's with a regular old Hu Tao team that only uses stuff from before 3.0.
Imo genshins version of power creep is waaaaay more chill than HSR 💀
HSR have Severe power creep
That's not an opinion. That's a scientifically verifiable fact about the universe.
No1 cares about cutscene simulator with gambling
@@banjoowo4001so most gacha?
Doesn't matter to compare, it's still bad regardless and shows the players low standards
Man vs Vermillion
Man VS Er
@@soroushkowsarian3364 Man VS + 21 def
Man vs EM sands
Man vs Anemo Goblet
Releasing op artifact sets that can't be used by older character is making powercreep worse. Like the set cinder city basically gives every Natlan support a mini Kazuha.
I’m afraid it will get worse as Nod-Krai is looking like they will be focusing on Pneuma-Ousia or Nightsoul type of mechanic if there is no new element
If you main old characters bc you like them, it also destroys the ability to play them in abys. Yoimiya is almost impossible to play in abys if you just like to play her and not care about meta. Teams that also focused on split damage across all the characters in the team also do worse bc Mavuika can do so much damage and run those supports that percentage of damage wise, her teams function like older hyper carry teams but the total damage is significantly higher.
just pull supports for Yoimiya
Another point of powercreep are the artifact sets. Something like maurechusse can be used by anyone if you try hard enough (or just use furina) and then you have obsidian codex which limits you to only natlan characters being able to use it. Characters like hu tao have a lot of different artifact sets and then newer characters only have 1-2 sets.
I feel like 4 years of very reasonably powercreep is our best case scenario for a gacha
coming from a former day one fe heroes player, yeah, that humbled me real quick on powercreep
I'm surprised teams from years ago are still able to clear and keep gettin retroactive buffs through new playstyles but nightsoul and natlan overall feel like a step back
This is the definition of having low standards .
genshin so far has been one of the only gacha who managed to handle powercreep by keeping new and old units at a relatively similar ceiling while giving more team options to everyone, but you're willing to give that up simply because since others did it worse, it feel like we had it too good ?
They were making billions already with inazuma and sumeru, 2 regions with barely any powercreep, this is just greed showing
this
@@stiflash same thing was said in the past 2 regions 😭😭😭
Genshin fans have 0 standard, this is literally a AAA quality game, how're you guys like this?
I mainly hate, when Abysses are super restrictive to force you to play a narrow set of characters. I play since 1.0 and have over 50 characters at lvl 90. The thing that still makes me enjoy Abyss is the big variety of teams I can build. But when Abyss mechanics make half of my roster unviable I just get my gems and loose all motivation to play beyond that. I’d love to still play Eula and Dehya in Abyss but lately it’s just not fun anymore.
Im not firmly against powercreep in gacha games because that's just the nature of the genre (even if it's a predatory nature) but I *am* against making the game unplayable for f2p players. If the monetization system relies on gambling, then all content *needs* to be accessible for every kind of player. Obviously that doesn't mean abyss should be easy, but I think it should reward investment and skills regardless of your units. If you're good enough you should be able to clear. I hope this is as bad as it gets with genshin.
I cannot agree when he said mavuika without new 5 star from natlan is shit when its literally easier for the majority of player to finish the abyss even without them instead of the international that said to be more than good here
We have so many on-field pyro DPS, we can do a pretty good look at how strong characters have gotten purely using on-field pyro DPS. Diliuc, Klee, Hu Tao, Yoimiya, Lyney, Arlecchino, and now Mavuika.
ga ming
Seeing Yoimiya inbetween Hu Tao and Lyney is hilarious im sorry
Look at that, a buch of examples of what the goddamn archon shouldnt be and what they do? They add yet another onfield pyro dps zzzZ
They are not in order. @@Coach_Ren
It would be Mavuika>>Arlecchino>Gaming>Diluc>Hu Tao>Lyney>>Yoimiya>>Klee today
@@lastorderx20001 theyre in order of release i know
I see a lot of comments how its not a big deal and i kind of agree for now but its exactly how star rail players defended powercreep. Its feels like they are exact same people.
Genshin is over twice as old as star rail and does not have nearly the powercreep issue HSR does. I'd absolutely expect games to release stronger units, but they dont make older ones obsolete
The only thing worth looking at is the rate of abyss hp inflation, if that goes up to the point where old units dont clear in their premium teams we will have issues.
Xiao is the main canary for this because he is a weak 5* that has gotten the perfect supports and cannot realistically improve anymore.
while genshin player worried about they chars might be getting powercreep in snezhnaya, HSR player worried about their chars getting powercrept tomorrow
Nah, HSR powercreep is more ridiculous.
Sparkle was already a powercreep, but Bronya is a standard char, then they launch fucking Sunday and now even Rememberance Trailblazer will have action forward.
Let's not even mention Acheron or Firefly, and this BS "ignoring resistance" mechanic, and now "true dmg" mechanic.
Seriously, there are many unexplored niches in HSR, and yet they choose to powercreep old characters rather than explore new niches for kits, or create chars which open new team archetypes.
For example, HSR would REEEALY benefit with a Furina there. Healers would matter more than just for cleansing, shields won't be as necessary, and you immediately buff Blade and Jingliu with them, and allow new characters with possible HP mechanic kits like Castorice and Mydei to not need absurd numbers to powercreep others, since they can have more mediocre stats of their own, but with a "Furina" and a Healer, they could reach Acheron levels of power. Furina even has pets, which would work as a Rememberance character.
I'm fine with a new team powercreeping an old team, for example if they put an quantum harmony char that really makes Seele shine to the point she won't need Bronya and Silver Wolf(but could still work with them), and can work outside mono-quantum teams, but not a new char directly powercreep the old. I don't want a Silverwolf that can choose which element to add a weakness to and which enemy should get it for example.
Hsr not only has harsher powercreep but it is also a younger game, soon it will even surpass genshin in terms of 5*
We all knew Natlan was the nation of powercreep since we saw two artifact sets that were equally if not stronger than all others and they only work with a mechanic exclusive to Natlan characters. It really sucks so much, this is the worst abyss because even if it's not the most dangerous or the most tanky, the restrictions for pupila and qucusaur are the most frustrating for people who doesn't use Natlan characters.
u know burning and hyperblooms are faster to clear out the shields for the plant enemy than natlan charas right?
@@lolidemon3163 And the qucusaur only needing Hydro...
One you just need Furina and other hyper bloom, overload or burning lol where is the restrictions ?
the rewards dont even motivate me to clear floor 12 this time. people may like restarting it over and over again but im a person who doesn't like doing shit that doesn't feel fun over and over again. hp sponges, stalling mechanics, forcing you to have certain characters (i.e. bow user or geo user), all of it is incredibly unfun and so the only other endgame mode that gi even has is burdened by this stupid artificial difficulty.
and it doesn't help that people will race to hoyo's rescue and defend them by saying "it's actually ez tho" or "nah, skill issue".
what's the point in wasting time on building these characters just to use them in one unfun mode and MAYBE theatre if their element aligns with the current rotation?
I like that he's talking about endgame content without ever mentioning Imaginarium Theatre, like it never existed. AND don't forget Repertoire of Myriad Melodies, no chance of ever power creeping that I guess, unless they release scores that requires 4 thumbs, 12 fingers, 3 eyes and 2 brains.
Imaginarium Theater is exist thou
"if your unit is bad for this Abyss you won't be able to play them for a month"
Yeah this is the problem with restrictive Abyss cycles. I genuinely enjoy the problem solving it brings, but this is still a problem.
Good point about the wipe mechanic being made redundant by the increased res.
Papilla didn't bother me too much since unlike in the overworld it starts its shield immediately so you can have all bursts ready with your plan to take it out (done with multiple non-Naltan teams).
The DPS check is lower, but if the fight goes long enough for it to shield again a second break was extremely difficult.
Really hoping the mobs seen in the next abyss are a single wave. Multiwave vs. those shields sounds extremely miserable.
If you make the game about Abyss then sure. But that's your choice. Maybe stop caring about Abyss so much.
i haven't used ayaka after sumeru feelsbadman
I think the challenge of the powercreep conversation is the definition of how much a player should be expected to buy into it. By that I mean, how much should we reasonably expect players to pull new units and build up their teams? How many teams would you expect them to have and continue updating for future abyss runs? And what is reasonable to expect regarding their unit diversity to be able to adapt to different requirements?
A lot of times you see the conversation go to "newer players", which, if I'm honest, I don't think new players should be clearing Abyss. I don't think the days played or AR should count for determining their level of investment; anyone can build time / AR from doing quests or just logging in to do dailies. It's hard to quantity just how early one should be able to clear especially depending on the units they choose to pull for.
I think defining that is important for the conversation. Because like you said, you're heavily invested in the game so you don't foresee yourself failing to get max stars and neither do I. But for the other players, I think the only way to discover how much powercreep is affecting them is to determine how much they should be reasonably keeping up in the first place and whether or not that's enough if you choose to skip / cannot get new units. Otherwise I feel the conversation can get drowned out by just general difficulty frustration.
You bring up a good point about frustration.
We have a generally unfavorable attitude towards combat in this game, and the Spiral Abyss in particular.
Instead of guiding players to plan their accounts we instead push an anything goes mindset, and hail mediocrity.
Players who feel that they should be able to clear with whatever, who quickly find that they cannot clear with whatever, then turn around to blame the game for being unfair, while being propped up by the yes-men of low standards.
@el7284 Agreed. Which, I get it, I understand wanting to clear with the unit you've been with for a long time or just got a previous patch. But I think there's a level where they should be expected to adapt to the stage and pull characters with that in mind if they truly want to clear. If they don't need the clear, that's fine too. Some may find that missing a few hundred primos isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. Better to save your sanity / time than commit to something just for a relatively small reward.
Hate to come off as cynical but that's not a level of nuance you'll able to sustain through very many conversations on this subject matter.
@@penguindrummer252 it's true 😭
@penguindrummer252 oh no I agree, I think that's why the conversation is so hard to have. There's no easy way to have the conversation with the level of nuance it requires unless you define it clearly at the start. But that in itself is challenging haha
I believe Genshin is still under a tolerable threshold when it comes to power creep. Yes, the bar has been raised, but they always make sure to give you an alternative way if you don't want to roll. For example, the Nightsoul shields could have easily been "just Natlan", but they added an alternative way to deal with them through rapid application of elemental damage, which allows some level of flexibility.
That said, you know what would be a nice solution for the power creep problems? Small buffs for older characters that got left behind. It doesn't need to be an uber buff that makes Hydro Traveler powercreep Neuvillete, just a bit more damage here, a small QoL here, an adjust there and voilá.
I don't get why they refuse to buff old characters directly, like changing their actual stats. Nobody will complain if their old char gets buffed, and makes them more attractive for a re-run. I'll even go as far and say some kits need to be re-worked.
Klee's kit for example. She's the oldest limited char after Venti, and her age shows hard. She needs off-field on her Q to be remotely useful, and her animations must be made more smoothly, so you can actually do her rotations more easily, which right now is hard AF.
With Off-Field, she would be like a fusion of Kirara and Pyro Xingqiu, and with the right stats, could be an excelent Off-field Pyro Sub-DPS.
@@Bronze_Age_Sea_Person It's because there is actually a history of getting sued for buffing a unit in a Gacha game. Apparently ANY alterations on a unit in a Gacha are grounds for fraud/scam.
I know it sounds stupid, but hey, it could be worse right?...... *Bunny girl flashbacks* 🫠
@@KawashiK mind giving some sources to that? Edit: abt the buffing obviously
@@KawashiK so sad it has to be that way. would have loved to see a future were balance patches got rolled out like in the TCG mode for characters like Dehya and Kaveh etc... not only would it give players a better experience but hoyo could also make god bucks on characters that are now considered worthless/insta-skips.
guess we just can't have nice things
@@lolidemon3163Yae Miko flashback 😅😅😅
People shouldn’t feel forced to pull for the newest units just to 3 star the newest abyss when the rewards for doing so are so terrible that it’s not even worth the stress.
Pull who you like, ignore who you don’t, don’t get clickbaited by tiktok damage per screenshot showcases.
A thing need to be addressed. One of a team comp type who do so many random elemental damage to fill up the white bar is hyperbloom. Yes, your old-good hyperbloom. And many several specific team like keqing aggravate still can do just fine. Everything just still at the level where, "dendro can beat it"
I don't talk about wolflord here. It's been in the abyss for several years, no powercreep indication by placing it again
I think the biggest factor is how much a power increase helps other characters.
Dendro raised the ceiling but it also dragged a lot of weak units into relevance by having support units / mechanics for existing characters. Keq being a posterchild.
Fontaine had units like Navia and Chiori that definitely felt better than Albedo etc, but could still help out mono geo teams if you wanted to play that, similar with Furina, even if they weren't the "best" teams. At least the strong Fontain set was health manipulation, which anyone past and future can potentially be made to utilize.
Natlan feels particularly obnoxious to me because it's. 1) An artifact set that only Natlan characters use. 2) An Archon that's busted and explicitly works with Nightsoul, which only Natlan units have.
That's inherently nepotistic and discriminatory to previous and future regions. It's like if Fontaine was built around the Ouisia mechanic, which I was glad to see they had the sense not to, but that seems to have been discarded in Natlan.
Star Rail arguably has more powercreep but it regularly drags older units into relevance and I really haven't felt it remotely as badly as Natlan has felt.
Its as if all Fontaine characters were designed around bond of life, instead of hp increase/decrease
atp we have too many characters so they decided to go that way
if they go the ousia pneuma way then its way worse because when the last time you choose a character and think oh hes ousia, need to pick him. The state of ousia in the game is super forgettable and you pretty much can ignore it. and no star rail doesnt "regularly" do that. only jing yuan at best. No harmony came out that make people goes, wow now sushang is relevance again, wow jingliu relevance again.
@@omega6826 seele pops off every once in a while, and people are doomposting acheron when firefly and feixiao are the ones hoyo are selling and now acheron is kinda back again because AoE content is getting favored once more.
HSR relesing in 3.0 an artifact that only a few characters can utilize. And Archeron being a worse Mavuika. Archeron need two mediocre units from Nihility, meanwhile Mavuika wants two of the best supports that you can use with other characters. And no, just crazy and fans are using Seele. Meanwhile people use Hu Tao till this day.
And no character used Hp manipulation since Clorinde/Sigewinne or since Furina If Bond of life doesen't count.
I like how different abyss enemies force you to conjure up a quirky team or re-challenge to 3 star specific chambers if you can't or don't want to run said quirky team. I also like buffs making some characters all of a sudden more useful for a patch. Just being able to national team one side and hyperbloom the other every single abyss is nice but it gets boring, so I enjoy the incentives for variety. If it's so restrictive that you can't reasonably clear a chamber without 1 specific character, then that's variety and therefore not good.
nah don't you worry about it cuz i'm sure skirk is gonna break the floor and ceiling all together.
Skirk will have Quantum fuel mechanism which only can be provided by a fellow 5* debut banner character on the same patch
@@Snowbell247capitano becomes the premium quantum support
Hilarious, lmao even
@@Snowbell247 c6 skirk will require an eye tracker so you kill an enemy in every blink. trust.
5.4(2) Abyss looks like a banger
Can’t wait for Zajef77 and his 4-star only clears for that one
four star only clears are interesting esp when people further restrict the top 4* chars like bennett XQ and XL as well
also another point in the video is about challenging content and wanting to it to be mechanically complex, which I’m curious to hear a dedicated video on what exactly that means since genshin combat isnt mechanically complex. Strongest teams are 3EQ and then hold/press left click
(but there are definitely lots of creativity when you combine genshin combat + content).
All in all I’m just curious to hear examples of what people want as challenging content
I’ve always been fine with Genshin not having hard content/content to really match the level of investment you can reach, because it meant everyone could play their faves. Some faves are good out the gate, others require some investment, but you could clear the content with anyone. They’re raising the ceiling but in a way that’s starting to leave characters completely behind, and I don’t like it. It may not affect me personally, I have a decent chunk of C6 5*, some 100+ individual copies of 5* weapons, and the artifacts to pay respect to my monetarily invested units - but the trade off has always been ”you’re never gonna get to have much time/fun with your beloved units but that’s because the ceiling needs to stay low so that everyone, no matter their mains, can reach the thresholds needed for all content.”
And they’re breaking that second part of the bargain.
And if I get annoyed by the restrictions (I HATE HYDRO IM NOT PLAYING HYDRO FUCK YOU HOYO I ALSO HATE PYRO), I can’t imagine how others feel. C6R5 Chiori and C4R1 YeLan laugh at the first half - but I don’t like YeLan. I do not WANT to play YeLan. She only has cons to buff onfield Kokomi. Theater is meant to be the element and horizontal investment check, Abyss is supposed to be the ”we suggest this but if you’re invested enough you can ignore it.” I just worry that if *I* feel the strain, then sane people who don’t swipe or spend a shit ton of time in the game must feel genuinely squeezed.
Genshin has been a good middle ground for years (again I’m happy to trade my challenge as long as others can play their pookies) but this direction (more than just combat but I’ll shut up about that…..) is 1. Anti what Genshin has been for these years 2. Going to lose the majority of its player base. It’s silly. Whyever they thought they needed to fix what wasn’t broken is beyond me
I'm clearly in the minority with my hot take: I enjoyed the last Spiral a lot.
It felt like the abyss that punished Cookie-cutter team building, and instead forced me to use some absolutely wild teams to clear.
Mind you, I do have a C6R5 Furina, but I did swap her to an above average GT set and Fav sword, while not using the c6 infusion. And considering I am f2p (meaning most of my primogems went to that vertical investment) I'm not too bothered that I couldn't clear without her.
But I found success with Chlorinde/Kazuha/Chiori/Kachina on side 1, on one of my full clears.
Having to piece together a winning team felt like the challenge I've been dying for. I just wish they learned into this a bit more without excessively raising the HP of the enemies.
That said, them adding back leylines disorders is an L in my book.
Curious about the C6R5 furina, how many pulls did it take you over how many reruns? you're an F2P so im assuming you skipped on most if not all fontaine characters to be able to afford it?
@@Snek-t2n It takes around 13 months for a F2P to get a C6 character, I did it with Furina,Mavuika and will do the same with Tsaritsa
@Snek-t2n Took just shy of 1300 pulls to get C6R5 for me. I started in 1.6 and wished for the first time on her banner.
Edit: Looked up on my paimon dot moe, it took 1220 wishes on her first banner to get. (Also got an R4 Donut, blegh)
@@Snek-t2n 1220 pulls on her first banner. She was the finale of my wishless challenge.
biggest issue i have is just the stalling bosses do where they have crazy damage resist as they get up from idle position and bosses like wenut where its a waiting game
This was 18 Minutes of Pure Facts. 💯 The Team Restrictions Really Kills the fun
The reason why the papilla does not wipe you it's so that you can go to chamber 3 and come back for it with a different team. Many people seem to forget that resetting is a legit strategy. That way there are less teambuilding restrictions. Got my first 36 stats this abyss and made heavy use of that.
i agree, IF hoyo lets you bypass the chamber after completing it at least once, like Wuwa does.
Even if the new carriers are Mavuika level, that's actually bad... that means that all the old carriers, even fontaine dps characters are gonna look weak. Which is really sadge.
so cool having you yapping about these stuff while i eat my pasta
I brute forced the Pappilla with mono geo. But that team is highly invested team. Itto with sig and great artifacts, c2 Zhongli, Chiori and c6 Gorou. It still required lots of resets perfect s and was right on the clock
That's crazy I thought only overload and hyper bloom can break it without natlan
@あいす-Mizushima I didn't break it. I framed the wipes then brute forced through all its buffs
Clearing Abyss with characters up until a certain version, like only 1.x characters is really fun, and puts into perspective when the meta defining units have been releasing during the lifespan of the game. You should try it sometime.
maybe expand this a bit and put restrictions like 2.0 - 3.8, would be a fun challenge where u can get creative with team comps if u have most charas
Its also very unfun that the new power creep units are played so similarly to their predecessors
I recently decided to drop star Rail after that video that got somewhat viral about how story quest takes like 5 hours, of which only like 10 minutes are actual fights, plus how they are bufffing enemies tremendously to favor new characters.
With genshin, I think I will still keep playing, but perhaps a bit more casually, and probably will stop buying the welkin moon.
It’s refreshing to see someone actually speaking of these issues so openly..
The funniest thing is usually people will just chalk it up to "oh it's gacha that's just how it is". Coming from someone who's mainly played western AAA games this is just outrageous lol. You wouldn't catch 99% of the companies doing shit as egregious as this. It's like they're serving literal waste product on a silver plate but oh that's fine because I'm hungry and my taste buds have worn off anyways
I'm f2p, and I had problems clearing the abyss back in 1.0 and such, until inazuma drop, then I got raiden shogun, and since then, I never had troubles clearing a single abyss, not even now, not even when the abyss was with those pesky abyss lectors and their shields, I recently clear the current abyss 5.2/5.3 with 2 units per side, obviously I don't have a normal account because I being playing for 4 years, my neuvillette is top 1% I have constellations on some of my 5 stars, I have signature weapons, and most importantly, I have hands, yes I do have top of the meta units, but in all honestly, anyone with alhaitham, naiva, xiao, arlecchino, gaming, or full support national team with kazuha can clear the abyss, yes, the HP ceiling is getting higher, but it's just barely getting close to the top of optimization, and with stronger units like mavuika, citlali and xilonen, the abyss can barely keep up, now let's be fair though, you can play mavuika, without a single natlan character, I see one point of small contention is that new characters as ass without the new supports, obviously zajef didn't say mavuika, but it's clear he meant her, and let's be fair, put bennett, mavuika and the rest of the 4 stars from old, and she still hits for 400k nukes and donuts do around 100k damage, a mono pyro team does a lot, not as strong as mono pyro arlecchino, but better in aoe, normal attack mavuika does less damage sure, but the nuke is still good, not like it's gonna be difficult to clear content with her.
I'm just saying people overblow that mavuika is restrictive, and she isn't she is self sufficient enough to work as a hypercarry, her skill alone can give her burst back at 100 fighting spirit and a few more with the donuts she makes, adding a natlan character simply guarantee max burst damage, and that's fine, but you don't need, I'm gonna triple crown her eventually, because her skill already does a lot of damage with the ring, and is only lvl 6, she may completely powercreep xiangling in that sense, but who knows.
Appreciate the yapping. For me, the powercreep that I consider the most toxic in Genshin is Neuvillette and it's not even close, but I can certainly see why people would see Mavuika that way too.
100%
Neuvillette was a mistake
if neuvillette was a one off thing it would've been ok but they just kept going and they aren't stoping which is the problem
mavuika is better in anything relevant and its not close
I HATE Neuvillette now bro... I can't stand how brain dead he makes the game.
Powercreep discussions are always fascinating, especially in a game like Genshin where the balance can feel delicate. I love how this video brings in both sides of the argument, and honestly, I agree that while some powercreep is inevitable, the constant team restrictions make it harder to truly enjoy the newer characters. Also, shoutout to the editor for making the content super engaging!
8:26 Yeah I gotta say if they make it so people can't use their favorite characters or have fun all that's going to happen is people will start just dropping out of the game altogether, no matter how much they've invested in it previously. It's this kind of dumb greed that kills games.
LMAO and here I am wondering why 12-2 is so bloody hard! xD
OFC after its wipe - which I waited out on the side - it also becomes more tanky!
Makes me appreciate my Arlecchino even more tho, since she was able to clear it regardless with Bennet/Fischl and a C0 Chevreus.
Thanks for letting me know!
Also I really don't mind harder content - it's just as you said, it should MORE content, not old one getting impossible.
A Floor 13 with like 50-100 Primos would be perfectly reasonable. IMO.
Hello Beautiful people
I kind of agree with this video but i also have a bit of a different perspective
In my eyes because the abyss now resets once a month, I assumed that they make content more difficult to encourage you to take each chamber one by one,giving you more options to try different teams you've invested in which I think is kind of fun in a frustrating way
In some ways in the previous abyss I enjoyed finding the best team for each chamber
But with this current abyss I can also see your perspective in pushing us to get the new character for a 3 chamber clear with the same teams
Do you think this abyss is more fun for newer players who change teams for each floor until they get two teams that can full clear?
Power creep must exist because players need a reason to pull for the character. So as long as gameplay is the primary factor in a player's decision to pull (which they ensure is the case because of how they design combat challenges), then a player needs a reason to pull this character instead of just keeping who they already have. That being said, yes the level of power creep lately has been pretty bad.
But with THAT being said, my biggest issue with the Natlan era hasn't just been the "power creep", but the gross level of "integration" that has happened on all levels of gameplay. It's not just that the new characters are much stronger in combat. It's that not having the new characters is insufferable, while having the characters makes things trivial. Just like was shown, the Papilla is absolutely insufferable to fight without any Natlan characters, but if you have even 1 of the 5 star Natlan characters built it becomes extremely easy to deal with the void shield. But this also applies elsewhere too. Exploration and traversal in Natlan is also truly insufferable without having any of the Natlan characters. Then you add on how the new artifact sets are only usable with Natlan characters but are also absurdly strong.
It's basically "Get the new characters or your life is going to suck"
Edit: I would also add that this is something new and exclusive to Natlan. Even when they added new mechanics and strong characters in the past, they applied to everyone equally. If we look at the Arkhe alignment system from Fontaine, while it provided small benefits in combat or in puzzles, it was never a requirement. If we look at Marechaussee Hunter and Golden Troupe, while they are designed for Neuvillette and Furina, they can also work on everyone else too.
Natlan exploration ain't that bad without them tbh, the saurians are everywhere on the map
I think the only place you need Chasca because Qucussaurus are awful to use is Ochkanatlan
MH only works on everyone else bc of furina, outside of that, the cast that can utilize MH without her is an extremely small number
Abyss is certainly getting more difficult in a 'unfun' way. I was still able to clear this one without to much trouble (Noelle+Furina on side one and a Father+Chevy team on side two). I did have to reset a couple of times to get through 12-2-2 (really hard without nightsoul) but other than that it was pretty manageable. It was only a few patches ago that I could still bring meme teams to abyss, but that seems to no longer be the case even with a four year old account with a moderate amount of spending.
My catalyst only account went from being able to clear fairly easily to usually missing a couple stars. I could probably still get 36*s with enough resets but it isn't really worth it.
Maybe buff older units? That’s what FGO does to combat powercreep. Some units have gotten as many as 4 or 5 buffs, a whole rework of their kit because they were so bad. But who knows if Mihoyo would be opened to doing that. Oh well.
I would say that's impossible but Natlan was pattern-breaking in so many aspects that I think anything can happen now
Spiral abyss has now checks for the horizontal (how many characters are built) and vertical( min maxed characters) building of your account. They add super high hp enemies, invulnerability, elemental resistance, can fly, can ho immune, tankier than ever, niche characters requirements.
I would rather they add new content for flex than spiking current content difficulty. Spiral abyss for more vertical investment checks and the theatre for horizontal investment check.
That being said, I really dont mind anymore what they do with floor 12 and the boss enemies. It went from ruin machine, to maguu kenki, wolf boss, to those inscareated beasts, ruin serpent, and now this papillo papilla.
Thank God zajeff uploaded a video on powercreep, now I can finally have an opinion on it.
my take is, the release of hyperbloom increases the damage floor, neuvillette raises it again, then with mavuika it raises the whole damage floor AND ceiling. sure they put restrictions in form of limited natlan charas but thats nowhere near enough to add the addition of this mavuika powercreep schtick with the abyss floor too.
I feel like powercreep only feels so bad in Hoyo games because of their refusal to simply buff old units directly. I always thought their way of buffing through new units and artifact sets was cool to some degree but it reaches a point where you simply cant do it as targeted anymore as it needs to be. You cant buff Yoimiya with a new character release or a new artifact if you want that buff to not also buff other units as well unless you make the new stuff so incredibly hyper specific that it would feel meaningless to everyone without the specifically buffed character.
Other gacha games I play (or have played in the past) at some point all started directly buffing older units. If done well you dont leave old units behind and the powercreep issue just becomes slowly increasing numbers for both enemies and player units, which doesnt matter. It is like inflation. Prices going up slowly over time is not an issue and is even desiable in low amounts. But salaries have to keep rising as well. If inflation only ever increases the prices but the salraies only rise in the newly created jobs, people working the "old" jobs actively earn less and less over time until they cant afford anything anymore.
Buff old units, Hoyo! Giving Yoimiya the dps of Arlecchino doesnt affect your sales of Maviuka when she still deals more damage than both. It simply keeps your customers happy and more likely to stick with the game when they actually use the characters they like.
For a second I thought it's zajef daily
The power creep issue hasnt affected me yet since I’m a veteran player with lots of options so my reaction to it is not nearly as big as it should be, I don’t like how blatant the power creep is and the team restriction is so not fun, but the satisfaction from clearing something so difficult is much bigger since it’s much more difficult, however at the end of the day I just want the powercreep creep to at least go back to before it was in natlan
Thanks for +1 new vocabulary.
Pejorative
I think 2024 revenue loss made Genshin Devs take some drastic decisions. IMO Natlan feels like they were made to squeeze the money out of players
1) Less male characters to carter to their majority fan base
2) Waifu archon like Raiden who made big bucks for them before but not a well written Archon like Furina
3) Night soul mechanism is created just to lock people to get more characters from Natlan
4) Theater is created to make you pull more characters
It screams We want the money, Meanwhile ZZZ is also losing money and player base but Hoyo is treating ZZZ player base extremely nicely and Genshin player base like shit
Genuinely asking is there an actual tangible source for this losing players and revenue thing or it's just revenue speculation sites and traction counts on websites?
@@pyronado4320Revenue was down across the whole industry really, especially CN market not looking too hot. Newer hyped games like zzz and wuwa launched with way less revenue than hsr even.
@MASTER_AL again, I'm asking where are you getting these figures from ? Is the source even reliable ?
@@pyronado4320 If i remember CN players use hourly usage rate of the game to figure out the revenue, Higher hours of usage rate = More revenue and Tiktok is their benchmark to reach and Genshin has been failing to surpass Tiktok usage rate which they used to do before but now they dont especially with Natlan characters this is what started the conversation about revenue loss. The only way to know the accurate numbers and 'Tangible source" is when Hoyo releases the number which they wont (Also there has been drop on every gacha games in general)
Raiden is the waifu anime archetype of unapproachable and scary company boss but when in home she's a klutz and has a hard time doing basic homechores. That type is very popular among anime fans.
@4:59 shieldless Scara has entered the chat
I'm both a day one genshin and star rail player, very high investment on a lot of characters, and have full cleared all the endgame content in both games, and i feel like genshin's powercreep bothers me more than star rail's because of the restrictions and less the HP/Res inflation. With genshin, especially in Natlan, there are so many bosses that feel impossible without a natlan character, so you pigeonhole yourself into one of a few types of teams, and other than kinich, none of the natlan units are particularly fun for me. In star rail, I main boothill, which means he works well in 2/3 of the endgame modes (PF, AS, and MoC) so even if I can't use him in the current PF or MoC, I can always use him for AS. In genshin, Diluc is my favorite unit, but there isn't a single team or mode or boss that makes the Diluc i like feel good. Xianyun helped a lot with his plunge teams, but i like the version of diluc that is E>Auto>E>Auto>E>Auto, and that playstyle can barely keep up. I used to be able to consistently 3* clear with him back in the 3.x patches, but trying to use him in current abyss feels so frustrating, so i end up just playing neuvillette so avoid the headache.
for the first time in years i had to change my shit up and i actually liked the challenge to getting a 36 star
i'm still farming artifacts for my old favorites but it's getting harder and harder with the luck that i have
I feel like the regional meta stuff is in part due to how much new content affects older characters. I don’t think they actually want older characters to “catch up,” they want you to get new characters and keep playing (giving them money).
Sumeru did buff electro through reactions, but to a degree introducing an entirely new element means grinding for new goblets and the dendro artifact set to get access to that buff. Fontaine built a lot of weapons and mechanics around hp, something that only healers really directly scaled around before, which made it so you need to build new artifacts for a stat that’s not attack. The Neuma and whatever it was called were never required but did help.
Now I genuinely think they’re running out of strategies to avoid new artifacts and weapons that have scaling or affects that accidentally buff older units “too much.” The Natlan artifact domain is a pretty egregious example of this to be honest, they just said “screw it, unless you’re explicitly from this region you can’t use the set bonus :P.”
I hope cold sheer comes back in sneznaya but only for units that come from other nations 😐
Really your whole point, which I agree with, was that the units aren't getting stronger, but new content requires new characters to do and can't realistically be done with old characters
Yeah I don’t really get it I evaporate all content with Hu Tao double hydro the content is piss easy
it's doable with most characters but the thing is like he said, if you can clear it with neuvillette then do you need any other dps to do so
There are two interpretations to this, and one is a untrue, while the other is contradictory
@@el7284yup.
I've said it before gacha games can't be balanced. They need to incentive people to pull for reasons beyond just attractive design.
Because there are only two ways the content can end up. Either you keep the power level low for all units to compete which makes it easy and pointless to pull or you ramp it up and make it so that you need to pull or consider pulling new characters to make it easy.
@themoistepicgamer lets see you clearing the latest event with the hardest difficulty with hutao without natlan characters, I did it easily with mavuika tho
This discussion comes out every time we get a new powerful character - and this a fair discussion to have . But every time a new character comes out, if it mid quality, CCs and reviewers slate them off. But when some like Mavuika and Neuvillette come out, reviewers can not say "MUST PULL" enough times.