Maaan my favorite underutilized setting for DND Is Eberron it's freaking cool and interesting IMO. It was designed without much of the hardline alignment values in mind, everyone's a little grey, there was a huge century long war that left so much of the world in dissaray. It's also a techo steampunk neo noir setting with some advanced tech and low level magic being incredibly common but inversely super powerful magic is rare and hard to come by. It's just a fascinating setting. I love the changelings, the warforged, the thri-kreen. They're really neat, the lore of the dragons and the world just draws me in and I wish it was used more.
This. Eberron is the BEST existing genre for D&D imo. They made so many mysterious plot lines in the world left unresolved for DMs to make campaigns around. What caused the Mourning? What is the Draconic Prophecy? What will become of the Mror Holds? What demonic plottings are waiting to be uncovered in Droaam?
Zach was pretty bold with this one On a more serious note, I used to be a part of a volunteer group that faced a similar issue, and I don’t think we’ve gotten around to solving it yet, but there is value in being there and participating, for it generates positive impact. D&D, by existing, helps more people find a game they like, and even if it doesn’t have a clear cut identity, it has value nonetheless
You're 100% right to say D&D has no aesthetic identity. The spells, monsters, player classes, and mechanics are the identity that WotC pushes and it's seen in all of their work. Even as we migrate to 5.5e (or whatever it's called) the idea that is presented is to reuse the old and "give it a new spin". Beyond the modern lack of creativity/destruction of creative departments, D&D is to many of its players a bare-bones mechanical framework to create imaginary adventures in to play with your friends. That's why most DMs create new material--they don't wanna get completely bogged down by existing monsters/spells/classes.
Literally the precise reason why I prefer to work on my own ttrpgs; I don’t want to fuss about the myriad things in dnd I don’t already know and cant keep track of
D&D does have an identity. That identity was built up through 2e, 3e, and 4e with the various settings and hundreds of supplements and materials. You didn't go over how with new releases in 5e they have largely been watering down the old setting materials like spelljammer, ravenloft, etc. Ravenloft in 3e was literally an entire continent that people lived in WITH domains of dread and political intrigue between the darklords. The 5e ravenloft is literally just cut apart pieces with 0 coherency and only a care about the setting being a 'weekend in hell', which 3e and 2e ravenloft specifically said NOT TO RUN THE SETTING AS or it would cheapen it. Spelljammer had it's fantastical alchemy elements removed and watered down. It breaks large elements that existed in spelljammer: Illithids exist as primarily spelljamming species because they couldn't travel into the Astral because of the presence of the Githyanki in the Astral. So the weird stuff avoid the astral to avoid sight, making spelljamming kind of more 'on the fringes' of society and thus pretty weird. Planescape was watered down into simple "ooh cool multiverse!" when originally it was about the weird philosophies of the extraplanar setup of 2e and the great wheel, a dissection and deconstruction of the setting's cosmological setup. This is why Planescape Torment the RPG is a deconstruction on the CRPG genre. Forgotten Realms had the SCAG made but it literally entirely misrepresented elements of the setting. Baldur's Gate 3 is a better example of what the forgotten realms is about and it's the best identity we have for it in recent times. It's also not a kitchen sink, it has the most history in comparison to Greyhawk, Eberron, etc, and it stands apart. WotC is currently showing it has 0 care about setting information even for ones like the forgotten realms by giving the purple dragon knights.. dragon pets. They never had that. They're knights of cormyr, not dragon-training knights. Purple Dragon Knights is just the title of the knights for the land of the purple dragon, Cormyr. Eberron had a book made by the original creator, and thus it kept it's identity and there's a reason Eberron is extremely popular. Because the identity is solid. Greyhawk is sword and sorcery, not generic fantasy. The identity of greyhawk is your conan and 'evil sorcerers', that's why Vecna and Mordenkainen are so morally questionable at all times.
DND is a mechanic, you just listed a bunch of settings, just like Zach did, but they could work in other systems too. You could play Swords without Masters or World of Darkness in any of those settings. It's not easy to link a setting to a system like Blades in the Dark does, and surely DnD does not do it.
@@thebigbo Except back in adnd 2e each setting provided substantial overhauls and mechanical additions to the system. So each setting did have its own parts of the system that stood out entirely. Dark Sun and psionics and level 30 progression into becoming dragons and avangions. Forgotten Realms and it's various cleric-classes and other options that made it incredibly in depth to play a game in. 3 entire supplements dedicated to it and entire ecology books. Spelljammer with a ton of space travel and ship combat rules, which 5e specifically did not include. Ravenloft included a ton of rules in 2e for becoming a lich or undead or monstrosities, again, more in depth than anything 5e has made.
It shouldn’t be a mystery to WOTC why most DM’s homebrew everything. I literally cannot remember the last time I used an ‘official’ statblock, so dull and uninspired as they all are.
@@thewovenmantis6813 but is it an inability or a choice? Because such plain characteristics inspired so many third party creators to spread the game throughout the media. Which is the cause and which is the effect? Was it done on purpose? Hard to tell, but I tend to think this time's dnd success is a series of lucky coincidences
It is whatever you want it to be. I just ran a siege of Madalyn one shot just for the hell of it and because my brothers and I are huge Star Wars fans. You take what you could never do in real life and bring it to life in a ttrpg story
10:10 never played DnD but love your videos, I only knew that was Tiamat because you brought her up in your explaining DnD video haha it was amazing! Keep up the great content bro, living it!!
I get your point Zach! BUT, as a DM who consistently bases his campaigns in the Forgotten Realms setting (Faerun) it's just much easier for me to work within an existing world with existing lore. But that's never stopped me as the DM from defining the genre of the story or deciding on a certain aesthetic! When you mentioned both the D&D movie and Baldur's Gate 3 that was a great example of how two completely different-vibe adventures can take place in the same small area of the Sword Coast haha. So no, for me- D&D's identity is always whatever the DM makes it out to be in their games.
General fantasy is water, it has it's place in a party, but we're looking for sharper, stranger drinks. Coca-cola or maybe even a bloody Mary. Flexing dark sun or straud is definitely more appealing to newbs
The talk about DnD being limited to general fantasy definently held me back a bit I think. You actually got me to start playing dnd from a startplaying ad. I heard Curse of Strahd was known as one of the best campaigns to play so I tried it. I went into being someone who thought the idea of a vampire being the main bad guy was kinda cringe (cause twilight movies), but ended up with an amazing surprise. I loved CoS. Being someone who is very deeply interested in the horror genre in general made me realize how much more DnD actually is than just fantasyland fighting goblins and wizards.
I think dnd should keep its general fantasy lack of identity. It keeps things simple accessible and a good introduction for people who have never played a ttrpg. I think if dnd tried to reach out and tried to be a detective and tried to be a seafaring system it might do everything mediocre. Just keep dnd as the classic fantasy adventures. A system like brindlewood bay does detectives better than dnd. One module isnt gonna fix that. Im using detectives here as an example but it goes with every genre. Dnd should be an identity-less toolkit for players first adventures and every adventure that doesnt start out with a clear goal but other than that people should just play refined rpg systems
Hmm. I never really gave this much thought before. But thinking on it now- I think I would say that D&D's identity is more of a meta concept. Identity itself.
I think the closest thing to an identity D&D has is its iconic moments/characters/references. Names like Srahd, Vecna, Baldurs Gate, Fireball (generic sure, but people usually get the reference.). As long as people can think of D&D when they hear these things, then it'll have its identity. But the most important part about these things is they're *D&D* specific. Once you start adding in things from other IPs, especially more modern ones, you really start to lose the sense of adventure the name D&D invokes.
Ooh! I love Bold Takes and Bad Tempers but this more scripted form of video is really great! The combination video essay/campaign opinions and recommendations format is really cool!
Man, I just finished up the podcast, and with only a few minutes left in the last episode. You uploaded again! Really well done video! Loved the tight editing.
I have been running homebrew world my entire time of DMing and I’ve never run any other realms. I’ve slowly come to just mentally think of D&D as my world and forget sometimes that there’s outside haha But it is crazy how D&D incorporates so much it’s hard to even place it sometimes. Awesome video man! Love to see the longer form content! Any chance you’re considering Dungeon Jam or Dragon Week? The community of us fellow nerds would love to have you!
Really like this type of video, all the work you put into it really paid off, More of this would be awesome! Also flippin awesome music taste I strongly approve. Great video man!
I don’t have a solid idea of specifics for this thought, it’s just something I’ve run with myself before… but here’s my idea: basically pocket worlds. I use D&D as a system to go between different themes and settings. So, I start all my campaigns in Waterdeep, or Baldur’s Gate, or something like that. Easily recognizable, easy for new players to have some fun in “a known D&D place”. Then, from there, we branch into whatever we are doing for our adventure. Be that Strahd, Storm King’s Thunder, or even just entire new nations and maps I’ve made. Each of those branches have their own identity and theming for the player to enjoy, and I let them pick from a few different choices BASED on those themes and we have a good time that way. And, if the group wants to continue on after finishing an adventure, we do it again. We return to the “normal” life of Waterdeep, settle in for a bit, and eventually adventure back out to a more thematically-defined area for a new story. That’s why I call it pocket worlds. Everything affects each-other, they aren’t separated stories in my campaigns. And players in more than one campaign can interact with each other and such. But the adventures themselves are smaller, tighter themed worlds so to speak. That’s what I mean when I say I use D&D as a system to go between different themes and settings.
Phandelver and Below’s Biggest Sin; It wants to be a Mind-Flayer story, but also start at Level 1. I ran Dragon Heist for a group of six players, and they all started at level 3. (Mild Spoiler for a six year old module), There’s a Mind Flayer in the first chapter, and the book jumps up and down warning you not to brain blast the players. So I had it evade around, and dominate the Beast Barbarian… and them and two other players still went to zero. Six smart players piloting lvl3 characters, a DMPC (Renaer Neverember), and a DM with half the stat block redacted still couldn’t safely get a mind flayer to be an easy encounter. Phandelver and Below, when I played it, was an entirely passable experience. Me and the players stayed comfortably within the lines the module intended, and the DM made sure before we started that body horror was a firm green light (and as a surgery tech… damn, could she get ooey-gooey with the descriptors). But the on ramp-ing this setting thinks it’s doing for Baldur’s Gate players means experienced players have to find their fun until everyone’s on the highway to the Far Realm.
Just wanted to say that I'm hoping to run Lost Mines of Phandelver soon as GM (first time playing DnD!), and every single piece of content you've put out on this channel has been so hilarious and helpful to me in understanding the many kinds of joy you can get from this game. Thanks so much for the work you put into videos like these!
As someone who also only got into Magic in the last year, after a lifetime of playing D&D, this is exactly the video I needed. Thanks for the general overview and overall discussion!
To me, D&D as a brand is like books (literally just the entire premise of books) having a cohesive brand. Every book has such a unique story that it'd feel bizarre to stuff every sci-fi book into Night City, or every fantasy book into Middle Earth. They'll often be the starting point, but D&D is at it's best when the brand is just a reference for the unique story (2:40). I got the references in Secret Level, but taking all those out I'd still know it was a D&D episode from the dynamic of each character, the camp scene did a good job of that. I've been a DM since lockdown but still only know snippets of Faerun/Eberron lore, or at least the parts I care about. Sometimes your Faerun can share as much with my Faerun as the name and a map.
My favorite parts of D&D is puzzling out mysteries and coming across worldbuilding naturally through investigation, but it works so much better in Call of Cthulu, but Call of Cthulu doesn't have as interesting of worlds if you wanna complain about everything being Mind Flayers look no fucking further. D&D's rules and character building is designed around combat but a lot of people could give or take combat in their campaigns. D&D's asthetic should be cultural melting pots and political counter-culture, but that's too hard to write. How many campaigns have you been walking around just imagining everyone as humans and then the DM is like "Everyone's like birds and dragons and shit"
And even with Chaos Theory, the fun comes in everyone having a job and responsibilities then breaking the rules for justice's sake and unraveling mysteries sooo
I feel like even stuff like forgotten realms can be really easily remixed or changed to have a really new or cool identity in a module or homebrewer campaign; I'm currently planning one out set in 1960s Forgotten realms, and honestly, the interesting ways I've thought of mixing together high fantasy rules and history and a 1960s aesthetic have made for a really interesting campaign. You don't need entirely new lore for a themed campaign; remember, Victorian Europe happened at the same time as the wild west. The same thing can be applied to DND, even at the same time, same universe, same whatever, things can be significantly shifted.
Dnd is a character sheets (or just pieces of graph paper), a bunch of dice, a theater of mind, and a group of people playing together. That's it. Everything else is homebrew and home rules that are built by yourself, constantly being molded, modified, changed, applied, adapted, added, removed or whatever you want to do (or at least that's how I think it's intended to be and has been since its beginning). What the manuals and modules offer are examples and suggestions of what can be created and not created. If you take away D&D's identity, it's no longer the same modeling clay and building kit, but a rigid and strict formality that does not allow for creativity and freedom and it becomes like a computer game with only one certain way to play it correctly to beat it and get through.
I really agree with the thoughts you have on both the Mtg and DnD concern of sections not having a solid theme at times. I'm surprised you didn't bring up Vecna: Eve of Ruin with how disjointed it feels at times just pulling strings together with plot points and locations with drastically different themes with only a level up between each part fully removing steaks form a settings and focusing on just Vecna as a threat. It feels less like a game and more like a kiddy Rollercoaster for GMs to look through and go "I remember that reference" and never actually play it.
Make The Spider a henchman to the Mindflayers. He agrees to capture the Mine so he can gain wealth and the BBEGs have access to weapons for their army. Give Hashutu the doppleganger's powers and role, and have him attack the party early on to establish paranoia and the overall threat. Tie Ruxithid to the manipulative Chishinix, and create a custom baddie tied to Voalsh. Thread them throughout the first four chapters, or have the mind flayers attempt to turn Venomfang into a dracoliche after the party defeats him. Definitely not good that people have to fix the adventure to make it work though lol
This is actually why most of my campaigns are taking place in Exandria and the Critical Role universe, long after I've stopped watching their content. It just feels more coherent, connected, like it has more identity, at least to me
I am running Shattered Obelisk, but I am hoping to pull in some of the mind flayer parts and obelisk stuff in the first four chapters so it's not such a 90 degree turn to basically another campaign that is tenuously tied together. I am a new-ish DM, and my (forever DM) son told me this would be the best to dip my toes in to practice running a longer campaign.
Different genres and esthetics aren't a bad idea. But I do think it's important to keep in mind the D&D rules do give it an identity of sorts. You have all these unique classes with magical powers and mind-bogglingly powerful spells. That is the main reason why I don't like hacking D&D to fit other generations. Because a sci-fi game, for example, where almost every class feature involves very specific magic just doesn't feel very sci-fi. And even other fantasy styles. Many fantasy series have their own unique magic systems and structures that D&D doesn't fit easily into. Going beyond character class and spells, D&D is explicitly made for dungeon crawling, it's in the name. Though I know that's not what everyone does with it, it's undoubtedly ingrained into the game's rules and history. Loot/random encounter tables, magic items, encumbrance, light levels, traps, and equipment such as torches and rations are all in the books for a reason. Not to mention the sets of unique monsters and setting details like plains in the books. D&D does have an identity, one that defined all RPG video games from the start, as well as shows like Adventure Time and generic Isiki anime with their states, classes, adventure guilds, and grinding for EXP. That stuff isn't in lord of the Rings; D&D made it up. Though much of this has become genre standard, it is still D&D in the end. In conclusion, D&D is a great creative tool kit, but I disagree that it doesn't have its own identity, even if we take that identity for granted.
As a DM I think you hit the nail on the head, "Its a tool to tell stories". I have been DMing for my group across 3 campaigns and 7 years and all of my players + me do not know a single bit of canon D&D lore. We barely even use the monster manual, I kinda just homebrew places, stories, and monsters and my players homebrew their own stuff as well. Hell, rn we homebrewed D&D into a realistic sci-fi setting to the point it barely classifies as D&D besides the 6 primary stats. Thats what makes D&D so good, it can easily be adapted to anything
Why homebrew D&D so far instead of using a system with so much infrastructure that makes it easier to run? Traveller literally is a realistic scifi setting and it has very simple rules. Why bend D&D so far into something it is not??
@21Skluanm21 I looked at traveller but it missed alot of the rules I needed for the theme of my scifi setting. Also the roll20 inbuilt sheet for it was lacking (more of a roll20 issue tho than an issue with it). That plus my group has a new player so the DnD ruleset (especially after we trimmed the fat off) was quicker to learn. There actually is a ruleset that likely would have worked better (dungeons and destiny) but its currently not complete enough for us to use so I had to jerryrig my own. So far im happy with how it has turned out!
DARK SUN REFERENCED, Im about to start (been asking to play consistently for 4 months by now) a dark sun campaign with a new group with a guy who has never played dnd
I'm also gonna reply to my own comment. not about Chrono Trigger (but the music here is so good) but about the video in general. So I'm currently running the Waterdeep Heist but I've kind of pushed it way out past what the book does, because when i played the Waterdeep Heist, I wasn't really a fan of it as a campaign. Don't get me wrong, I loved playing with my friends and I dug the setting, but exactly what you said, what was the tone of that campaign? For me, it became a Tavern running sim. The high stakes political battles of different factions was something I know now from DM'ing but never as a player. I also felt, as a heist, it was anything but. I won't spoil the ending of the Waterdeep Heist, but for any who want to play this, don't expect a heist. I know that's crazy to say, but it's not. I've actually home brewed 8 heists into this campaign as a response to my experiences. As far as what is DnD? I hate to be that guy, but it gives a playground to play, but definitely doesn't go farther than that. The magic system is fleshed out enough to create rules and systems of magic. The mechanics are descriptive enough to rule of thumb physics. And there is plenty of lore to create scenerios around (and from what I hear from the monster Manuel, the lore is going to give tons of plot hooks). I'm honestly ok with blank slate that is DnD. It's systems have allowed me to use my creativity to improvise or plan scenerios that I want to see in a movie. I love that. The stories have been springing from my head pretty organicly and I don't feel I need to tie myself to the lore much. I personally don't like the new UA's classes that tie subclasses to specific backgrounds or origins. That feels limiting on both sides. For players, it means they have to be from a specific sandbox and if they are not, and DM allows them to run with whatever character anyway, it feels very fish out of water. For the DM, it feels limiting to players who would also like to have fun in the creative space. Anyway, this comment is too long but I love the channel. I also could argue with you on your points because identity is really cool. I just appreciate the blank slate everything and the kitchen sink themeless dnd.
DND (and by extension, Pathfinder) both seem heavily designed for kitchen sink settings. The forgotten realms is a great example, just... *everything* is there, you can have an adventure of any genre in it. Pathfinder's setting, Golarion is even more of a kitchen sink than the Forgotten Realms IMO. That being said, I do think Pathfinder manages to have more of an identity than DND thanks to some very, very well-written gods. The gods of Pathfinder are just way more interesting than that of most other kitchen sink fantasy settings, and I think that helps it feel more unified than DND.
Cowboy Campaign or Detective Campaign or Horror campaign in that order followed by dissing on MTG fans was the same thing I've been feeling for a long long time.
I feel like DnD is build on the corpses of a world. Like there once was a setting there, but so much was removed and so much disjointed stuff added, that its even hard to see what it once was.
D&D is a combat game. You've read the core books; they're at LEAST 80% only about what happens when you fight and how to handle combat. It is a set of rules to chameleon on to what you are inspired by and what you find cool. The identity is: combat game with your mates to make memories. Everything else is flavour.
I like the format of the video! Cool way to engage with a deeper thought. It is a little hard for me to follow the thought process that starts with trying to identify core identity pillars and ends with "D&D is pure imagination". A lot of the things discussed here that make up D&D's supposed identity are actually just creating the identity of the individual modules or settings. I do not know the Forgotten Realms setting very well, so when I saw the D&D movie I had the same reaction that you described during Secret Level -- just pointing at things and going "Oh I know that!" I do not think D&D can have a core identity any more than books can, or videos. It is a platform. I do not really enjoy low-magic fantasy, so Dark Sun is not for me... but that doesn't make it NOT D&D, just not the kind of D&D that I want to partake in. Similarly, I really (really (REEEALLY)) do not want to play a Rick & Morty module for D&D ... but I guess it's... good that it's there? I do not feel I can rightly tell other people what is or isn't D&D. I've certainly had a lot of MtG players tell me how the 40k set was bad for the game while that cross-pollination is what first drew me in. The only thing I can point to and feel really safe in saying is a core part of D&D is that success is measured in intervals of 5%. And probably things not going the way anyone planned.
I have maintained the stance for several years now that D&D is a game chasis and not a setting. It's like saying "I've driven a car," but that doesn't tell you much information. There was gas, steering, acceleration, and braking involved for sure, but there is a huge difference between the rusted out chevy from the 70's that still moves somehow and you can literally see the road through a rusted through hole in the steel floorboard, and a Luxury Tesla that can self drive and has independent climate control for each seat. These are not the same experience.
To me, the campaign setting is the identity. D&D is just the ruleset. Eberron is the magepunk setting. Dark sun and raven loft have distinct identities like you mentioned. Making a campaign setting is ambitious, but one of the most rewarding things you can do.
I’ll be real tho, it might just be because I’m new to magic, but the fallout collab is what really got me into magic, my first commander was dogmeat, so I really like the magic the gathering collabs. Admittedly I’m very bias
The original, narrow identity, is basically dungeon crawl to find a dragon and steal its hoard.
Yep inspired by Conan and Elric with with Tolkien sprinkled on so people who liked LOTR would play it
I like this yapping guy
🗣️🗣️
Dnd Jerma's back!
I really appreciate the little bits of added cinematography you add in. Really spices up the video.
very big fan of this video style. feels like a cohesive, ironed out version of your podcast
Maaan my favorite underutilized setting for DND Is Eberron it's freaking cool and interesting IMO. It was designed without much of the hardline alignment values in mind, everyone's a little grey, there was a huge century long war that left so much of the world in dissaray. It's also a techo steampunk neo noir setting with some advanced tech and low level magic being incredibly common but inversely super powerful magic is rare and hard to come by. It's just a fascinating setting. I love the changelings, the warforged, the thri-kreen. They're really neat, the lore of the dragons and the world just draws me in and I wish it was used more.
This. Eberron is the BEST existing genre for D&D imo. They made so many mysterious plot lines in the world left unresolved for DMs to make campaigns around. What caused the Mourning? What is the Draconic Prophecy? What will become of the Mror Holds? What demonic plottings are waiting to be uncovered in Droaam?
Whoa Zach! Nice editing there! I'm happy with the direction you're going! i loved the longform ranting but the clarity of this I really enjoy!
We're so back. Missed you zach
Zach was pretty bold with this one
On a more serious note, I used to be a part of a volunteer group that faced a similar issue, and I don’t think we’ve gotten around to solving it yet, but there is value in being there and participating, for it generates positive impact. D&D, by existing, helps more people find a game they like, and even if it doesn’t have a clear cut identity, it has value nonetheless
You're 100% right to say D&D has no aesthetic identity. The spells, monsters, player classes, and mechanics are the identity that WotC pushes and it's seen in all of their work. Even as we migrate to 5.5e (or whatever it's called) the idea that is presented is to reuse the old and "give it a new spin". Beyond the modern lack of creativity/destruction of creative departments, D&D is to many of its players a bare-bones mechanical framework to create imaginary adventures in to play with your friends. That's why most DMs create new material--they don't wanna get completely bogged down by existing monsters/spells/classes.
Literally the precise reason why I prefer to work on my own ttrpgs; I don’t want to fuss about the myriad things in dnd I don’t already know and cant keep track of
Agreed.
just wanna say, ive never played DnD but your shorts content is TOP TIER.
also - did you slip some chrono trigger OST into the background? great taste
Rick and Morty in D&D is like that weirdo cousin every family has. You have to acknowledge them, but nobody wants to interact with them.
Can we get the supercut where we get to see the rant about the D&D movie?
I second the motion, I demand it to be seen!
D&D does have an identity. That identity was built up through 2e, 3e, and 4e with the various settings and hundreds of supplements and materials. You didn't go over how with new releases in 5e they have largely been watering down the old setting materials like spelljammer, ravenloft, etc.
Ravenloft in 3e was literally an entire continent that people lived in WITH domains of dread and political intrigue between the darklords. The 5e ravenloft is literally just cut apart pieces with 0 coherency and only a care about the setting being a 'weekend in hell', which 3e and 2e ravenloft specifically said NOT TO RUN THE SETTING AS or it would cheapen it.
Spelljammer had it's fantastical alchemy elements removed and watered down. It breaks large elements that existed in spelljammer: Illithids exist as primarily spelljamming species because they couldn't travel into the Astral because of the presence of the Githyanki in the Astral. So the weird stuff avoid the astral to avoid sight, making spelljamming kind of more 'on the fringes' of society and thus pretty weird.
Planescape was watered down into simple "ooh cool multiverse!" when originally it was about the weird philosophies of the extraplanar setup of 2e and the great wheel, a dissection and deconstruction of the setting's cosmological setup. This is why Planescape Torment the RPG is a deconstruction on the CRPG genre.
Forgotten Realms had the SCAG made but it literally entirely misrepresented elements of the setting. Baldur's Gate 3 is a better example of what the forgotten realms is about and it's the best identity we have for it in recent times. It's also not a kitchen sink, it has the most history in comparison to Greyhawk, Eberron, etc, and it stands apart. WotC is currently showing it has 0 care about setting information even for ones like the forgotten realms by giving the purple dragon knights.. dragon pets. They never had that. They're knights of cormyr, not dragon-training knights. Purple Dragon Knights is just the title of the knights for the land of the purple dragon, Cormyr.
Eberron had a book made by the original creator, and thus it kept it's identity and there's a reason Eberron is extremely popular. Because the identity is solid.
Greyhawk is sword and sorcery, not generic fantasy. The identity of greyhawk is your conan and 'evil sorcerers', that's why Vecna and Mordenkainen are so morally questionable at all times.
5e and watering down, name a more iconic duo
DND is a mechanic, you just listed a bunch of settings, just like Zach did, but they could work in other systems too. You could play Swords without Masters or World of Darkness in any of those settings. It's not easy to link a setting to a system like Blades in the Dark does, and surely DnD does not do it.
@@thebigbo Except back in adnd 2e each setting provided substantial overhauls and mechanical additions to the system. So each setting did have its own parts of the system that stood out entirely.
Dark Sun and psionics and level 30 progression into becoming dragons and avangions.
Forgotten Realms and it's various cleric-classes and other options that made it incredibly in depth to play a game in. 3 entire supplements dedicated to it and entire ecology books.
Spelljammer with a ton of space travel and ship combat rules, which 5e specifically did not include.
Ravenloft included a ton of rules in 2e for becoming a lich or undead or monstrosities, again, more in depth than anything 5e has made.
It shouldn’t be a mystery to WOTC why most DM’s homebrew everything. I literally cannot remember the last time I used an ‘official’ statblock, so dull and uninspired as they all are.
@@thewovenmantis6813 but is it an inability or a choice? Because such plain characteristics inspired so many third party creators to spread the game throughout the media. Which is the cause and which is the effect? Was it done on purpose? Hard to tell, but I tend to think this time's dnd success is a series of lucky coincidences
It is whatever you want it to be. I just ran a siege of Madalyn one shot just for the hell of it and because my brothers and I are huge Star Wars fans. You take what you could never do in real life and bring it to life in a ttrpg story
Really enjoying this new type of video!
I’m a radicalist that says we need to bring mystara back
10:10 never played DnD but love your videos, I only knew that was Tiamat because you brought her up in your explaining DnD video haha it was amazing! Keep up the great content bro, living it!!
I get your point Zach! BUT, as a DM who consistently bases his campaigns in the Forgotten Realms setting (Faerun) it's just much easier for me to work within an existing world with existing lore. But that's never stopped me as the DM from defining the genre of the story or deciding on a certain aesthetic! When you mentioned both the D&D movie and Baldur's Gate 3 that was a great example of how two completely different-vibe adventures can take place in the same small area of the Sword Coast haha. So no, for me- D&D's identity is always whatever the DM makes it out to be in their games.
Starting right at the end of MTG having an identity, amusing
General fantasy is water, it has it's place in a party, but we're looking for sharper, stranger drinks. Coca-cola or maybe even a bloody Mary. Flexing dark sun or straud is definitely more appealing to newbs
The talk about DnD being limited to general fantasy definently held me back a bit I think. You actually got me to start playing dnd from a startplaying ad. I heard Curse of Strahd was known as one of the best campaigns to play so I tried it. I went into being someone who thought the idea of a vampire being the main bad guy was kinda cringe (cause twilight movies), but ended up with an amazing surprise. I loved CoS. Being someone who is very deeply interested in the horror genre in general made me realize how much more DnD actually is than just fantasyland fighting goblins and wizards.
I think dnd should keep its general fantasy lack of identity. It keeps things simple accessible and a good introduction for people who have never played a ttrpg. I think if dnd tried to reach out and tried to be a detective and tried to be a seafaring system it might do everything mediocre. Just keep dnd as the classic fantasy adventures.
A system like brindlewood bay does detectives better than dnd. One module isnt gonna fix that.
Im using detectives here as an example but it goes with every genre. Dnd should be an identity-less toolkit for players first adventures and every adventure that doesnt start out with a clear goal but other than that people should just play refined rpg systems
Dude your editing has gotten so much better since your first videos. Great stuff
Genuinely one of the best produced and well written videos I've seen in the TTRPG space, man is the goat at making videos holy shit
love the skits in the video, good format :)
Hmm. I never really gave this much thought before. But thinking on it now- I think I would say that D&D's identity is more of a meta concept. Identity itself.
I think the closest thing to an identity D&D has is its iconic moments/characters/references. Names like Srahd, Vecna, Baldurs Gate, Fireball (generic sure, but people usually get the reference.). As long as people can think of D&D when they hear these things, then it'll have its identity. But the most important part about these things is they're *D&D* specific. Once you start adding in things from other IPs, especially more modern ones, you really start to lose the sense of adventure the name D&D invokes.
i played in dark sun back when i played d&d. i loved it. i wish that one of the groups that stream there games would use it.
Ooh! I love Bold Takes and Bad Tempers but this more scripted form of video is really great! The combination video essay/campaign opinions and recommendations format is really cool!
Man, I just finished up the podcast, and with only a few minutes left in the last episode. You uploaded again! Really well done video! Loved the tight editing.
I have been running homebrew world my entire time of DMing and I’ve never run any other realms. I’ve slowly come to just mentally think of D&D as my world and forget sometimes that there’s outside haha
But it is crazy how D&D incorporates so much it’s hard to even place it sometimes. Awesome video man! Love to see the longer form content!
Any chance you’re considering Dungeon Jam or Dragon Week? The community of us fellow nerds would love to have you!
The only campaigns I’m interested in are the unique ones. Like CoS and Spell Jammer.
your long videos are so good
Bro you should make more videos like this, I love your skits but please make more of this stuff too. I love it
Really like this type of video, all the work you put into it really paid off, More of this would be awesome! Also flippin awesome music taste I strongly approve. Great video man!
Thank you for coming back and making a long form video! Now stay! Not asking.
I don’t have a solid idea of specifics for this thought, it’s just something I’ve run with myself before… but here’s my idea: basically pocket worlds. I use D&D as a system to go between different themes and settings.
So, I start all my campaigns in Waterdeep, or Baldur’s Gate, or something like that. Easily recognizable, easy for new players to have some fun in “a known D&D place”. Then, from there, we branch into whatever we are doing for our adventure. Be that Strahd, Storm King’s Thunder, or even just entire new nations and maps I’ve made. Each of those branches have their own identity and theming for the player to enjoy, and I let them pick from a few different choices BASED on those themes and we have a good time that way.
And, if the group wants to continue on after finishing an adventure, we do it again. We return to the “normal” life of Waterdeep, settle in for a bit, and eventually adventure back out to a more thematically-defined area for a new story.
That’s why I call it pocket worlds. Everything affects each-other, they aren’t separated stories in my campaigns. And players in more than one campaign can interact with each other and such. But the adventures themselves are smaller, tighter themed worlds so to speak. That’s what I mean when I say I use D&D as a system to go between different themes and settings.
The podcast is back 😳
I don’t think you need to work on a sign off, that was perfect. You nailed it. Chefs kiss. No notes. Perfect. Much wow.
Phandelver and Below’s Biggest Sin; It wants to be a Mind-Flayer story, but also start at Level 1.
I ran Dragon Heist for a group of six players, and they all started at level 3. (Mild Spoiler for a six year old module), There’s a Mind Flayer in the first chapter, and the book jumps up and down warning you not to brain blast the players. So I had it evade around, and dominate the Beast Barbarian… and them and two other players still went to zero. Six smart players piloting lvl3 characters, a DMPC (Renaer Neverember), and a DM with half the stat block redacted still couldn’t safely get a mind flayer to be an easy encounter.
Phandelver and Below, when I played it, was an entirely passable experience. Me and the players stayed comfortably within the lines the module intended, and the DM made sure before we started that body horror was a firm green light (and as a surgery tech… damn, could she get ooey-gooey with the descriptors). But the on ramp-ing this setting thinks it’s doing for Baldur’s Gate players means experienced players have to find their fun until everyone’s on the highway to the Far Realm.
Great video Zack. Big fan of your content career man. Great job.
Zach Kobold, back again with another banger.
WOOOO, LONG FORM VIDEO! LET'S GO!!
9:16 Darkest Dungeon Warrens ost spotted!
Yes and it’s Karlach
Zach going on multiple tangential rants on aligning topics or general opinions only stopping himself before the video becomes a 2 hour rant is a mood
not enough curse of strahd glaze needed more
Something about your delivery in this video is so reminiscent of Egoraptor's "Sequelitis" in the best way possible
love your content man hoping for more long form
Love these kinda of videos, keep it up 👍
Just wanted to say that I'm hoping to run Lost Mines of Phandelver soon as GM (first time playing DnD!), and every single piece of content you've put out on this channel has been so hilarious and helpful to me in understanding the many kinds of joy you can get from this game. Thanks so much for the work you put into videos like these!
As someone who also only got into Magic in the last year, after a lifetime of playing D&D, this is exactly the video I needed. Thanks for the general overview and overall discussion!
Also top tier signoff scream 😂
Long videos are back?? Please yell at me more.
Lets go back to first edition
DND had a identify, but it long lost it
now its just a product
12:13 this one jumpcut saved us from a 20 minute rant about mtg players
the popup notes are truly magical
To me, D&D as a brand is like books (literally just the entire premise of books) having a cohesive brand. Every book has such a unique story that it'd feel bizarre to stuff every sci-fi book into Night City, or every fantasy book into Middle Earth. They'll often be the starting point, but D&D is at it's best when the brand is just a reference for the unique story (2:40).
I got the references in Secret Level, but taking all those out I'd still know it was a D&D episode from the dynamic of each character, the camp scene did a good job of that. I've been a DM since lockdown but still only know snippets of Faerun/Eberron lore, or at least the parts I care about. Sometimes your Faerun can share as much with my Faerun as the name and a map.
My favorite parts of D&D is puzzling out mysteries and coming across worldbuilding naturally through investigation, but it works so much better in Call of Cthulu, but Call of Cthulu doesn't have as interesting of worlds if you wanna complain about everything being Mind Flayers look no fucking further.
D&D's rules and character building is designed around combat but a lot of people could give or take combat in their campaigns.
D&D's asthetic should be cultural melting pots and political counter-culture, but that's too hard to write. How many campaigns have you been walking around just imagining everyone as humans and then the DM is like "Everyone's like birds and dragons and shit"
And even with Chaos Theory, the fun comes in everyone having a job and responsibilities then breaking the rules for justice's sake and unraveling mysteries sooo
I feel like even stuff like forgotten realms can be really easily remixed or changed to have a really new or cool identity in a module or homebrewer campaign; I'm currently planning one out set in 1960s Forgotten realms, and honestly, the interesting ways I've thought of mixing together high fantasy rules and history and a 1960s aesthetic have made for a really interesting campaign. You don't need entirely new lore for a themed campaign; remember, Victorian Europe happened at the same time as the wild west. The same thing can be applied to DND, even at the same time, same universe, same whatever, things can be significantly shifted.
Everyone has their own answer to what D&D is. For me, it is the deck of many things, since I put it in every adventure I make.
Yet another epic video by ZachtheGOAT!!!
comment for the comment algorithm and because I love you and am deeply attracted to the way you style your hair (especially when you're sweaty)
Love the long form content!
Dnd is a character sheets (or just pieces of graph paper), a bunch of dice, a theater of mind, and a group of people playing together. That's it. Everything else is homebrew and home rules that are built by yourself, constantly being molded, modified, changed, applied, adapted, added, removed or whatever you want to do (or at least that's how I think it's intended to be and has been since its beginning). What the manuals and modules offer are examples and suggestions of what can be created and not created. If you take away D&D's identity, it's no longer the same modeling clay and building kit, but a rigid and strict formality that does not allow for creativity and freedom and it becomes like a computer game with only one certain way to play it correctly to beat it and get through.
I really agree with the thoughts you have on both the Mtg and DnD concern of sections not having a solid theme at times. I'm surprised you didn't bring up Vecna: Eve of Ruin with how disjointed it feels at times just pulling strings together with plot points and locations with drastically different themes with only a level up between each part fully removing steaks form a settings and focusing on just Vecna as a threat. It feels less like a game and more like a kiddy Rollercoaster for GMs to look through and go "I remember that reference" and never actually play it.
You had me at Chrono Trigger Battle Theme
you're so real for the cutoff D&D movie rant
Make The Spider a henchman to the Mindflayers. He agrees to capture the Mine so he can gain wealth and the BBEGs have access to weapons for their army. Give Hashutu the doppleganger's powers and role, and have him attack the party early on to establish paranoia and the overall threat. Tie Ruxithid to the manipulative Chishinix, and create a custom baddie tied to Voalsh. Thread them throughout the first four chapters, or have the mind flayers attempt to turn Venomfang into a dracoliche after the party defeats him.
Definitely not good that people have to fix the adventure to make it work though lol
This is actually why most of my campaigns are taking place in Exandria and the Critical Role universe, long after I've stopped watching their content.
It just feels more coherent, connected, like it has more identity, at least to me
I am running Shattered Obelisk, but I am hoping to pull in some of the mind flayer parts and obelisk stuff in the first four chapters so it's not such a 90 degree turn to basically another campaign that is tenuously tied together. I am a new-ish DM, and my (forever DM) son told me this would be the best to dip my toes in to practice running a longer campaign.
Different genres and esthetics aren't a bad idea. But I do think it's important to keep in mind the D&D rules do give it an identity of sorts. You have all these unique classes with magical powers and mind-bogglingly powerful spells. That is the main reason why I don't like hacking D&D to fit other generations. Because a sci-fi game, for example, where almost every class feature involves very specific magic just doesn't feel very sci-fi.
And even other fantasy styles. Many fantasy series have their own unique magic systems and structures that D&D doesn't fit easily into. Going beyond character class and spells, D&D is explicitly made for dungeon crawling, it's in the name. Though I know that's not what everyone does with it, it's undoubtedly ingrained into the game's rules and history. Loot/random encounter tables, magic items, encumbrance, light levels, traps, and equipment such as torches and rations are all in the books for a reason. Not to mention the sets of unique monsters and setting details like plains in the books. D&D does have an identity, one that defined all RPG video games from the start, as well as shows like Adventure Time and generic Isiki anime with their states, classes, adventure guilds, and grinding for EXP. That stuff isn't in lord of the Rings; D&D made it up. Though much of this has become genre standard, it is still D&D in the end. In conclusion, D&D is a great creative tool kit, but I disagree that it doesn't have its own identity, even if we take that identity for granted.
Love this video. DND is perfect for more analytical, long form videos like this.
Homebrew, the identity is homebrew.
i like the genre homage magic, but i find them to be executed super lazily
thunder junction and karlov maner is just such a planet of the hats
Babe wake up! New Zach video!
Cant believe the shorts funnyman is now a longs funnyman
As a DM I think you hit the nail on the head, "Its a tool to tell stories". I have been DMing for my group across 3 campaigns and 7 years and all of my players + me do not know a single bit of canon D&D lore. We barely even use the monster manual, I kinda just homebrew places, stories, and monsters and my players homebrew their own stuff as well. Hell, rn we homebrewed D&D into a realistic sci-fi setting to the point it barely classifies as D&D besides the 6 primary stats. Thats what makes D&D so good, it can easily be adapted to anything
Why homebrew D&D so far instead of using a system with so much infrastructure that makes it easier to run? Traveller literally is a realistic scifi setting and it has very simple rules. Why bend D&D so far into something it is not??
@21Skluanm21 I looked at traveller but it missed alot of the rules I needed for the theme of my scifi setting. Also the roll20 inbuilt sheet for it was lacking (more of a roll20 issue tho than an issue with it). That plus my group has a new player so the DnD ruleset (especially after we trimmed the fat off) was quicker to learn. There actually is a ruleset that likely would have worked better (dungeons and destiny) but its currently not complete enough for us to use so I had to jerryrig my own. So far im happy with how it has turned out!
DARK SUN REFERENCED, Im about to start (been asking to play consistently for 4 months by now) a dark sun campaign with a new group with a guy who has never played dnd
I typically use DND as simply a ruleset homebrewing my own settings and many of my monsters
It's the game where you play heroic fantasy characters who fight monsters
The amorphous identity is the identity
YESSS DARK SUNNN!!
This will do until you get the podcast back up 😉
I am compelled to comment purely so the algorithm carries this video to other people who will hopefully find it as entertaining as I did!
Yeaaaah, Dark Sun!! I hope to see a new edition of it, or maybe some good ways to port it to OSR systems.
The Chrono Trigger music in this is soooo good.
I'm also gonna reply to my own comment. not about Chrono Trigger (but the music here is so good) but about the video in general.
So I'm currently running the Waterdeep Heist but I've kind of pushed it way out past what the book does, because when i played the Waterdeep Heist, I wasn't really a fan of it as a campaign. Don't get me wrong, I loved playing with my friends and I dug the setting, but exactly what you said, what was the tone of that campaign? For me, it became a Tavern running sim. The high stakes political battles of different factions was something I know now from DM'ing but never as a player. I also felt, as a heist, it was anything but. I won't spoil the ending of the Waterdeep Heist, but for any who want to play this, don't expect a heist. I know that's crazy to say, but it's not. I've actually home brewed 8 heists into this campaign as a response to my experiences.
As far as what is DnD? I hate to be that guy, but it gives a playground to play, but definitely doesn't go farther than that. The magic system is fleshed out enough to create rules and systems of magic. The mechanics are descriptive enough to rule of thumb physics. And there is plenty of lore to create scenerios around (and from what I hear from the monster Manuel, the lore is going to give tons of plot hooks). I'm honestly ok with blank slate that is DnD. It's systems have allowed me to use my creativity to improvise or plan scenerios that I want to see in a movie. I love that. The stories have been springing from my head pretty organicly and I don't feel I need to tie myself to the lore much. I personally don't like the new UA's classes that tie subclasses to specific backgrounds or origins. That feels limiting on both sides. For players, it means they have to be from a specific sandbox and if they are not, and DM allows them to run with whatever character anyway, it feels very fish out of water. For the DM, it feels limiting to players who would also like to have fun in the creative space.
Anyway, this comment is too long but I love the channel. I also could argue with you on your points because identity is really cool. I just appreciate the blank slate everything and the kitchen sink themeless dnd.
Drizzt books and dragon lance books. Perfect dnd examples
WE ARE SO BACK
I identify dnd by the authoritarian 2 drink limit (good to see you back on here Bröther)
DND (and by extension, Pathfinder) both seem heavily designed for kitchen sink settings. The forgotten realms is a great example, just... *everything* is there, you can have an adventure of any genre in it. Pathfinder's setting, Golarion is even more of a kitchen sink than the Forgotten Realms IMO.
That being said, I do think Pathfinder manages to have more of an identity than DND thanks to some very, very well-written gods. The gods of Pathfinder are just way more interesting than that of most other kitchen sink fantasy settings, and I think that helps it feel more unified than DND.
Cowboy Campaign or Detective Campaign or Horror campaign in that order followed by dissing on MTG fans was the same thing I've been feeling for a long long time.
I feel like DnD is build on the corpses of a world. Like there once was a setting there, but so much was removed and so much disjointed stuff added, that its even hard to see what it once was.
DND Honor Among Thieves is so underrated.
D&D is a combat game. You've read the core books; they're at LEAST 80% only about what happens when you fight and how to handle combat. It is a set of rules to chameleon on to what you are inspired by and what you find cool.
The identity is: combat game with your mates to make memories. Everything else is flavour.
I like the format of the video! Cool way to engage with a deeper thought.
It is a little hard for me to follow the thought process that starts with trying to identify core identity pillars and ends with "D&D is pure imagination". A lot of the things discussed here that make up D&D's supposed identity are actually just creating the identity of the individual modules or settings. I do not know the Forgotten Realms setting very well, so when I saw the D&D movie I had the same reaction that you described during Secret Level -- just pointing at things and going "Oh I know that!"
I do not think D&D can have a core identity any more than books can, or videos. It is a platform. I do not really enjoy low-magic fantasy, so Dark Sun is not for me... but that doesn't make it NOT D&D, just not the kind of D&D that I want to partake in. Similarly, I really (really (REEEALLY)) do not want to play a Rick & Morty module for D&D ... but I guess it's... good that it's there? I do not feel I can rightly tell other people what is or isn't D&D. I've certainly had a lot of MtG players tell me how the 40k set was bad for the game while that cross-pollination is what first drew me in.
The only thing I can point to and feel really safe in saying is a core part of D&D is that success is measured in intervals of 5%. And probably things not going the way anyone planned.
I have maintained the stance for several years now that D&D is a game chasis and not a setting.
It's like saying "I've driven a car," but that doesn't tell you much information. There was gas, steering, acceleration, and braking involved for sure, but there is a huge difference between the rusted out chevy from the 70's that still moves somehow and you can literally see the road through a rusted through hole in the steel floorboard, and a Luxury Tesla that can self drive and has independent climate control for each seat.
These are not the same experience.
Awesome video!
To me, the campaign setting is the identity. D&D is just the ruleset. Eberron is the magepunk setting. Dark sun and raven loft have distinct identities like you mentioned. Making a campaign setting is ambitious, but one of the most rewarding things you can do.
I’ll be real tho, it might just be because I’m new to magic, but the fallout collab is what really got me into magic, my first commander was dogmeat, so I really like the magic the gathering collabs. Admittedly I’m very bias
Wuxia mentioned at 8:47