After many years of sharpening, I can confidently declare that it DOES make a difference...but not enough of a difference to be bothered by. In my experience, push is faster, at least for me. I do push-pull mostly, though (push and then pull in the same motion without removing the blade from the stone. Pull works just fine and it may help some people maintain a consistent angle easier. Maintaining a consistent angle is more important than anything else. Whatever helps you do that is what you should do. Obviously, this is for sharpening. Stropping is pull only, always.
21:53 - It absolutely will not mess up your burr, the burr is formed on the opposite side of the edge from the side you are working on, and its folded up towards you. Personally I find it easier to hold a consistent angle while doing both push and pull, because every time you lift the blade from the stone is an opportunity to lose your angle and you can now sharpen both strokes so you get more done with the same motion.
For profiling an edge I use a push-pull fast motion, but that is only to reach the sharpening geometry. Basically visibly shiny dull to hard to see the edge in Sunlight. For sharpening I use Push (Edge leading) only, with progressively lighter pressure strokes and alternating sides for each strokes. Of course stropping is Edge-trailing only, but that is a whole different topic.
@@dragoscoco2173 I think thats a very good point tbh, and that it has to do with knowing what you want to achieve. If you are reprofiling as you say, the only goal you have is to remove material efficiently, it doesnt really matter if it looks good, is even, has weird facets etc. All those things along with apexing properly, the burr, refinement etc comes in later steps and trying to do them all at the same time is a mistake if one havent mastered it yet imo. I typically go "profiling mode" where I go high pressure back and forth, work in segments and dont really care what it looks like. Once I have the profile I want, I move on to apexing, more controlled movement but still working in sections and slightly less pressure, focusing only on getting an even burr along the entire blade. Once thats done, I move on to refinement, where its progressively lighter pressure and I change into crescent strokes instead of straight grinding motions, this smooths out all the bevel and facets etc. Then I typically turn the stone 90 degrees and do stropping strokes until I can no longer feel a burr, with very light pressure (weight of the knife basically), and at last theres stropping. Point is, if one can divide the sharpening into different tasks and have a clear goal for what you want to achieve in each stage, the results are bound to be good. For me the first stage is "grind away material until happy", followed by "establish an edge", then "refine the edge", then "get rid of as much burr as possible" and last is "finishing , stropping and polishing". It really helps take alot of the guesswork out and makes it alot less complicated, only having to worry about 1 thing at a time. In my humble opinion of course.
@@kvernesdotten I appreciate the humble opinion. Most of the knives I regularly have to sharpen due to family reasons are horridly beat up, dull as a rock or sharpened on those damned ceramic disk sharpeners. They require some elbow grease and I call it re-profiling cause it feels like one each time. I will not lightly go about it if 10 knives are in front of me. A fast pull-push and a few push light strokes go a long way considering in two months I get them back in front of me in the previous condition. Their steel is also quite soft so a pull sharpening leaves a huge visible flag type burr. Push (Edge leading) is a must for final passes. The other steps, doubly time consuming, are reserved for my 1 EDC, the 3 knives that actually cut in my kitchen and my at least 50 yr old straight razor.
I would recommend the Science of Sharp blog for Edge-leading or Edge-trailing sharpening differences on hard stones or sandpaper. He recommends Edge-leading (Push) as it does not create a foil burr, which can be quite hair popping sharp but very easily rolled over in use. While that foil burr will be smaller or bigger depending on steel properties, it always forms when pulling and is quite the workout to strop it out of existence.
@@MB_EDC Outdoor55 is quite ok. But in comparison to his kind of space age knife steels sharpening more common ones is a bit different IMHO. The Science of Sharp blog has Scanning Electron Microscopy of sharpened razors and knives, he tested a lot and provides images where we can only guess what we achieved with some technique or setup. Beware, it is a long read. Cheers!
Depends on how sharp you need your knife to be. The pull always creates a foil burr, a small sliver of the edge hanging sharply from the edge like a flag. It is quite sharp and can give the impression of hair popping and paper cutting, but it will roll over at first contact with anything harder like wood. The push also always creates a burr, but it is much finer and smaller thus harder to roll over. IMO you can push-pull at first to make haste with the whole process, but should switch to push (Edge leading) at the end to prevent that foil burr from forming, if stropping is not on the menu. Also progressively lighter strokes at the end help in limiting any big burr formation.
I've always pulled I do find that it can give a fine burr which I then remove by stropping on an old leather belt Not saying it's better but I've always done it that way
I really like how humble and open minded you are, but it must be hell to keep and open mind when it sounds like you are bombarded with some really poor advice from people who dont really know what they are doing. Thats what I hate about learning new things too, because until you have some grasp on it, its impossible to know who is giving good and bad advice. But for what its worth, I think you are doing alot better than most new sharpeners, especially if you havent been shown by anyone in person.
@@MB_EDC As long as its not annoying or unsolicited, I can leave some tips and tricks on the videos? Im no Bob Kramer, but I have enough experience with all sorts of knives and equipment that people are willing to pay me to have their knives sharpened. I just dont want to be -that guy- if you know what I mean haha
@@MB_EDC In that case, you said that you have trouble raising and/or feeling a burr when sharpening. From watching you, im pretty sure thats because you seem a bit afraid of putting too much pressure on it. As long as you can hold your angle (ie you dont strain yourself too much) and your blade is not flexing, its all good. I suggest you try using your dominant hand to hold your angle and move up and down the stone, while using your offhand to put some pressure straight down into the stone with. If you put your entire stone on a kitchen weight and zero it, you can see how much pressure you are putting on. I typically stay around 2-3 kg of downward force on a coarse stone, then gradually ease up on it as I go up the grits and start working on removing that burr, but if you dont have the burr to begin with im convinced more pressure is the way to go. Once you have a burr, and once you have it you will know, flip over and do the same thing again until you have a burr on the original side. Then try some alternating stropping strokes with light pressure to work on removing that burr. I like to turn my stone 90 degrees at that point. Imagine you are trying to wipe the burr off on the stone. Once you no longer feel the burr on either side, move on to the strop you used in another video for finishing. Here too I would advice you to use more pressure than you think, theres alot of scare stories on youtube about how you will round over and convex your edge if you do that, but its heavily exaggerated imo. You should be able to feel the leather "grab" the blade a bit, and a small amount of friction and heat is only good. Again, the purpose is to "wipe" the rest of your burr off, and strops are alot more forgiving than people claim. If you nail the pressure, im sure you will raise a hefty burr on your coarse stone, and if you nail getting rid of the burr again im sure you will see some really fun improvements! Also, if you are looking to upgrade your stone (I saw you mentioned trying diamond plates etc), I would really recommend you try out a Shapton Rockstar 1000 grit. Its a splash stone so no need to soak it, water is still involved so you dont have steel dust in the entire room afterwards (really not good breathing in that stuff) and it has very nice feedback so its much easier to feel when you are "hitting". Diamond plates are great, but they are arguably alot more messy because of all the free particles, they are very aggressive (a 1000 grit diamond plate behaves like a 220 water stone in my estimation) and contrary to popular belief, they do wear out suprisingly fast.
Thanks for sharing about your sharpening method, I enjoyed watching. 😊👍Take care my friend and Cheers!
Thanks Dave. I enjoy sharpening....And some of my sharpening videos are popular too 😁
It's almost relaxing watch sharpening vids. Definitely try some diamond stones and a strop.
@@RandysWSG I find it relaxing to sharpen.....I have a couple of field sharpeners to try and then diamond it is!!!
After many years of sharpening, I can confidently declare that it DOES make a difference...but not enough of a difference to be bothered by. In my experience, push is faster, at least for me. I do push-pull mostly, though (push and then pull in the same motion without removing the blade from the stone. Pull works just fine and it may help some people maintain a consistent angle easier. Maintaining a consistent angle is more important than anything else. Whatever helps you do that is what you should do. Obviously, this is for sharpening. Stropping is pull only, always.
@@michaeladams297 Thanks. I think I am coming to this view as well over time. I am still a beginner...
21:53 - It absolutely will not mess up your burr, the burr is formed on the opposite side of the edge from the side you are working on, and its folded up towards you. Personally I find it easier to hold a consistent angle while doing both push and pull, because every time you lift the blade from the stone is an opportunity to lose your angle and you can now sharpen both strokes so you get more done with the same motion.
@@kvernesdotten That makes sense - keeping the knife in contact with the stone
For profiling an edge I use a push-pull fast motion, but that is only to reach the sharpening geometry. Basically visibly shiny dull to hard to see the edge in Sunlight.
For sharpening I use Push (Edge leading) only, with progressively lighter pressure strokes and alternating sides for each strokes.
Of course stropping is Edge-trailing only, but that is a whole different topic.
@dragoscoco2173 Agreed. Stropping is really important.
@@dragoscoco2173 I think thats a very good point tbh, and that it has to do with knowing what you want to achieve. If you are reprofiling as you say, the only goal you have is to remove material efficiently, it doesnt really matter if it looks good, is even, has weird facets etc. All those things along with apexing properly, the burr, refinement etc comes in later steps and trying to do them all at the same time is a mistake if one havent mastered it yet imo.
I typically go "profiling mode" where I go high pressure back and forth, work in segments and dont really care what it looks like. Once I have the profile I want, I move on to apexing, more controlled movement but still working in sections and slightly less pressure, focusing only on getting an even burr along the entire blade. Once thats done, I move on to refinement, where its progressively lighter pressure and I change into crescent strokes instead of straight grinding motions, this smooths out all the bevel and facets etc. Then I typically turn the stone 90 degrees and do stropping strokes until I can no longer feel a burr, with very light pressure (weight of the knife basically), and at last theres stropping.
Point is, if one can divide the sharpening into different tasks and have a clear goal for what you want to achieve in each stage, the results are bound to be good. For me the first stage is "grind away material until happy", followed by "establish an edge", then "refine the edge", then "get rid of as much burr as possible" and last is "finishing , stropping and polishing". It really helps take alot of the guesswork out and makes it alot less complicated, only having to worry about 1 thing at a time. In my humble opinion of course.
@@kvernesdotten I appreciate the humble opinion.
Most of the knives I regularly have to sharpen due to family reasons are horridly beat up, dull as a rock or sharpened on those damned ceramic disk sharpeners.
They require some elbow grease and I call it re-profiling cause it feels like one each time. I will not lightly go about it if 10 knives are in front of me. A fast pull-push and a few push light strokes go a long way considering in two months I get them back in front of me in the previous condition. Their steel is also quite soft so a pull sharpening leaves a huge visible flag type burr. Push (Edge leading) is a must for final passes.
The other steps, doubly time consuming, are reserved for my 1 EDC, the 3 knives that actually cut in my kitchen and my at least 50 yr old straight razor.
I would recommend the Science of Sharp blog for Edge-leading or Edge-trailing sharpening differences on hard stones or sandpaper.
He recommends Edge-leading (Push) as it does not create a foil burr, which can be quite hair popping sharp but very easily rolled over in use.
While that foil burr will be smaller or bigger depending on steel properties, it always forms when pulling and is quite the workout to strop it out of existence.
Thanks I'll check him out. I have been using @OUTDOORS55 As a reference for technique
@@MB_EDC Outdoor55 is quite ok. But in comparison to his kind of space age knife steels sharpening more common ones is a bit different IMHO.
The Science of Sharp blog has Scanning Electron Microscopy of sharpened razors and knives, he tested a lot and provides images where we can only guess what we achieved with some technique or setup. Beware, it is a long read.
Cheers!
Thanks!
If it works, I would guess push-pull to be most efficient in regards to time.
Probably and of you don't need to take the knife off the stone - it's probably easier to maintain a consistent angle
Depends on how sharp you need your knife to be.
The pull always creates a foil burr, a small sliver of the edge hanging sharply from the edge like a flag. It is quite sharp and can give the impression of hair popping and paper cutting, but it will roll over at first contact with anything harder like wood.
The push also always creates a burr, but it is much finer and smaller thus harder to roll over.
IMO you can push-pull at first to make haste with the whole process, but should switch to push (Edge leading) at the end to prevent that foil burr from forming, if stropping is not on the menu.
Also progressively lighter strokes at the end help in limiting any big burr formation.
@dragoscoco2173 Thanks. That sounds like a good strategy.
I've always pulled I do find that it can give a fine burr which I then remove by stropping on an old leather belt Not saying it's better but I've always done it that way
Interesting! Thanks for sharing.... I couldn't find much of a difference. I think it comes down to personal preference...
I really like how humble and open minded you are, but it must be hell to keep and open mind when it sounds like you are bombarded with some really poor advice from people who dont really know what they are doing. Thats what I hate about learning new things too, because until you have some grasp on it, its impossible to know who is giving good and bad advice. But for what its worth, I think you are doing alot better than most new sharpeners, especially if you havent been shown by anyone in person.
@@kvernesdotten Thanks. I check all the advice against other information available. It helps me understand more about the sharpening methods
@@MB_EDC As long as its not annoying or unsolicited, I can leave some tips and tricks on the videos? Im no Bob Kramer, but I have enough experience with all sorts of knives and equipment that people are willing to pay me to have their knives sharpened. I just dont want to be -that guy- if you know what I mean haha
@@kvernesdotten TBH all comments are welcome. I am pretty robust and ignore any troll ones. They usually make me laugh.
@@MB_EDC In that case, you said that you have trouble raising and/or feeling a burr when sharpening. From watching you, im pretty sure thats because you seem a bit afraid of putting too much pressure on it. As long as you can hold your angle (ie you dont strain yourself too much) and your blade is not flexing, its all good. I suggest you try using your dominant hand to hold your angle and move up and down the stone, while using your offhand to put some pressure straight down into the stone with. If you put your entire stone on a kitchen weight and zero it, you can see how much pressure you are putting on. I typically stay around 2-3 kg of downward force on a coarse stone, then gradually ease up on it as I go up the grits and start working on removing that burr, but if you dont have the burr to begin with im convinced more pressure is the way to go.
Once you have a burr, and once you have it you will know, flip over and do the same thing again until you have a burr on the original side. Then try some alternating stropping strokes with light pressure to work on removing that burr. I like to turn my stone 90 degrees at that point. Imagine you are trying to wipe the burr off on the stone. Once you no longer feel the burr on either side, move on to the strop you used in another video for finishing. Here too I would advice you to use more pressure than you think, theres alot of scare stories on youtube about how you will round over and convex your edge if you do that, but its heavily exaggerated imo. You should be able to feel the leather "grab" the blade a bit, and a small amount of friction and heat is only good. Again, the purpose is to "wipe" the rest of your burr off, and strops are alot more forgiving than people claim.
If you nail the pressure, im sure you will raise a hefty burr on your coarse stone, and if you nail getting rid of the burr again im sure you will see some really fun improvements!
Also, if you are looking to upgrade your stone (I saw you mentioned trying diamond plates etc), I would really recommend you try out a Shapton Rockstar 1000 grit. Its a splash stone so no need to soak it, water is still involved so you dont have steel dust in the entire room afterwards (really not good breathing in that stuff) and it has very nice feedback so its much easier to feel when you are "hitting". Diamond plates are great, but they are arguably alot more messy because of all the free particles, they are very aggressive (a 1000 grit diamond plate behaves like a 220 water stone in my estimation) and contrary to popular belief, they do wear out suprisingly fast.
I have been supplying more pressure and getting better results. Thanks for the tip.