Paul's clear and organized mind while driving is as good and chill as the Colorado coolness or as he was sitting in a room or his backyard, truly impressive! Obviously, Safety 1st, Paul, as you probably told your kids. We all need you to be around 😊
Many of the old Telarc recordings were made using DSD technology and then transferred over to CD. To mirror Paul's comments, if done right, some of them sound incredible. The Dave Brubeck recording "One Alone" / Solo Piano is one amazing example. The Telarc DSD / CD recordings are the best sounding in my collection.
Dear Paul, I love all your super interesting video's!!! Please keep making them!!! Thank you!!!!! Kindest regards, Vincent Pothuizen (music lover and Electronics Teacher from The Netherlands / Eindhoven)
I need to see DSD pulse code and sinewaves in both high and low frequency, as well as loud and soft signals to get my head around it. Perhaps an oscilloscope demonstration would be nice to see? Thanks.
you dont see such fine difference on an oscilloscope.. you need expensive lab analyzers to show that, and even than some tomato ears claim that the neasurable differences are too small to measure.. But better just trust what the guys tell, since he is really not alone with stating just facts. Would be almost insulting to belittle as an opinion. We probably will see a time where pro audio broadcast standards move to DSD, selling all the gear again, just as they did when they moved t 96khz as the new more perfect perfect digital audio. The industry just safed the old dsd technology for a time it can be sold as the abslog sounding digital audio.. finally delivering what they have promissed since many decades..
The best CDs in my collection (most analogue sounding) are the ones that were AAD early releases, I think CD got screwed up when the loudness wars kicked in.
Wait where are you guys celling DSD files or whatever? I know HD Tracks has DSD but I'm not sure that's stuff that was birthed as DSD. Also I don't think Sony has truely said uncle to DSD or maybe they wana try and bring it back cause they made a big deal of it with 1 of their new PCMD recorders cause yes those will write DSD and their new microphones that hear up to 50 KHZ and some new laptop that is hi rez as well. But yes I've heard of SACD but never had 1 or heard 1. So where can I get a true DSD file to finally hear 1?
Yes, unfortunately, most DSD files available today are simply PCM files converted to DSD. That's not the same. You can go here" HTTP://octaverecords.com and choose from any of the music you like. Then, download the file which has the original DSD master included. We're one of the only true DSD studios.
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 Ah okay thanks. So the stuff on the page you sent me is free then? Cause you said to just download stuff. Will do. I've always heard dSD was more natural sounding and so on.
Wow - Paul on the road outside of the PSAudio / Ocatve Records offices! Reminds me of when Paul was doing those great videos in his house and yard in the beginning of the pandemic. I like it - but keep your hands on the wheel! LOL
🤗THANKS PAUL, I JUST WATCHED THE OTHER VIDEO AND SAID I WOULD APPRECIATE A RIDE IN YOUR TESLA 🤷♂️ WHAT DO YOU KNOW I JUST GOT IT 🤗 ALONG WITH ALOT OF INTERESTING AND EDUCATIONAL INFO 🧐 LOOKING 👀 FORWARD TO EXPERIENCING THIS 🤯 and I hope you have plans to do binaural recording 😍😍😍
Here again is a problem with generalization! Not all 'early' CDs sounded awful. Some were quite good. Just as with records, the sound quality of CDs and any other media varies according to how well the original recording was made and transferred to the end product. It is important to consider not only each title, but each Edition of that title.
You are correct, David, but generalization is the only practical way of making a generalized point which is what I am trying to do. The majority of CDs in the beginning were dreadful, as were the digital recorders of the day. But it wasn't true of all things as you correctly point out. There were exceptions. Dire Straits had a great sounding CD (because he went to a lot of trouble to pass the digital audio through multiple analog devices to get rid of the digital harshness). And then there was the Sony Betamax based stereo recorders that used VHS tape. They actually sounded wonderful. Still, my point remains.
So, if I know how to convert properly a music captured in dsd to pcm tracks, I will be able to mix these tracks in pcm environment (as dsd mixing is digitally practically impossible) and still get some not too bad results?
George and Geoff Hazelrigg and Doug Fearn (whose opinions on these things I trust) do say that initial capture in DSD and later-stage conversion to PCM (as you describe) is sonically superior to initial PCM capture.
Depending on how you convert them to PCM and therein lies the trick. We have developed a mathematically perfect filter called Zephiir that can do it, but most don't cut it - which is why the majority of DSD is mixed in analog and then converted back to DSD.
I can't relax when you're taking and driving! I'd love to see a video where a few seconds of music is recorded in the different methods, then you show what the raw data looks like, then sounds like. Even just a few beats of a drum, or solo vocals.
He's nuts fer doin' dat in snowy Colorado ... no matter what Tesla autopilot system hez gots. I get it ... he wants ta look hip .... but he and Octave ain't gettin' any luuuuuuuuuuuuv or respect fer dumbness.
So you record the performer to DSD and then play that back in analog to the mixer? Do typical Analog style studio processing. Then record the master mix as DSD? Are there generational artifact distortions caused by any DAC artifacts from the source being redigitized in the mix? Perhaps a sampling clock difference between source DAC and output ADC might see residual artifacts at some cyclical reputation rate?
This is where I get hung up with Paul's sales pitch. If your mixing source that is kept in DSD format, then it would seem that the simplest thing to do is to low pass the data stream to get analog and use an analog mixer. Doesn't seem very cutting edge to me but Paul doesn't seem very willing to disclose that very important aspect of their process. As usual, just expected to take Paul's word for it. Any other way just wouldn't make sense. So is the final master analog or do they immediately convert it back to DSD? I would assume it goes from the analog mixer back to DSD. So they could use the same AtoD-DSD converter for the original single tracks as would be used for the final mastered DSD file. Anyone who knows better, please do share.
@@chrisharper2658 From what I understand DSD is the recording/ storage format. Live from studio to DSD storage. DSD playback transcoded to analog for the analog mixing system. Then the analog out to DSD for storage. DSD replacing analog tape. You can use PCM for editing and mixing because each sample is a number. A PC can crunch them without them being audible. DSD does not work that way.
@@glenncurry3041 Right, DSD doesn't work that way. So it seems that analog mixing is what they would be doing. Otherwise there would be a ton of data stream conversion and I doubt they're doing that. And if they were, then using DSD would be pointless.
@@chrisharper2658 Correct. DSD storage/ recall. Analog mixing and processing. I video when tey want to mix digital streams in real time the hardware operates in 2xbit depth space. IWO to mix two 8 bit video streams in real time the hardware operates in 16 bits and then dithers it back down 8 bits. Audio using 24 bit depth? The required hardware does not exist.
Sigma Delta conversion (which DSD is based on) is an awesome approach to AD/DA conversion but much music distributed in PCM still benefits from it as it was used in the ADCs in the studio and DACs in your audio gear. DSD as a distribution media is very questionable as 99% of music needs to go through a mastering process where you won't be able to keep the DSD intact and a DSP process in the consumer products. For example, Tesla Model S (what Paul is driving) runs PCM...like all cars do. In fact, it's impossible to do DSD to the DACs in a modern car because you need a DSP to up-mix the audio to the speakers and you can't up-mix using DSD.
The music they are planning to make/record also is not really intended for car listening as I believe he has said in another video. Maybe Paul didn't specifically say car, but definitely mentioned headphones and something else.
@@andrazi4050 DSD as a very niche format for audiophile systems is great. Does it beat PCM 192kHz 24 bits, when both are used optimally? I don't think so.
@@ThinkingBetter You seem to imply that Paul and his team have not thought this out very well and are making a mistake. Is that a fair summary? If so that just seems unlikely to me, knowing how they operate in general.
@@txmike1945 I would recommend not being too obsessed about DSD because PCM can be equally good with sufficient sample rate and bit resolution and is by far more future proof. There is no future for DSD when it comes to advanced digital audio architectures involving any kind of signal processing. On a roadmap of things to come in next generation audio, DSD as distribution media is a dead-end.
@@ThinkingBetter interesting convolution of technologies. You do realize that technically Sigma Delta is not actually a PCM technology? PCM by definition requires that each sample be converted to a specific analog value and that number stored individually. While Sigma Delta only takes the current sample and decides whether the voltage is higher and it turns on, or not. Technical explanations of S/D ADCs usually say something like "and them some magic and a number is generated". Same on the DAC side. An actual PCM DAC like an RtoR will take each file sample data and generate the specific voltage value for that sample. S/D being single bit only cares whether that bit space is higher voltage. Either turn on for that cycle or not. S/D slowly chases the actual original signal's voltage swings. But each cycle only has a general relationship to the actual original bit value.
how do you get from the analog signal to DSD, are there analog to DSD converters or do you need to convert to say 16 bi or 32 bit digital word first, or are there solid state devices that convert directly to PDM from an analog signal similar to classical A to D
Yes there are ADCs and DACs that will convert directly to and from analog thru DSD. Actually one of the benefits of a high bit rate DSD is the only conversion needed can be done by a good analog balancing transformer!
Analog to DSD bit stream is actually quite simple. It is even used as a "front end" within many analog to PCM converters. Going from the DSD stream to PCM is not simple, but it's all handled in the digital domain where functional density on the chip is very high - and inexpensive. Similarly, the DSD demodulator is conceptually simple, the only complexity being sophisticated filtering required to suppress ultrasonics. Much of that filtering can be done digitally on the bit stream, before demodulation. In fact, many DACs today are implemented as digital PCM -> DSD converter/filters followed by analog DSD demodulators. It avoids the requirement for tight resistor tolerances for the R-2R ladder networks in traditional analog DACs, which is relatively expensive to meet. The digital filtering algorithms are highly proprietary, and closely guarded trade secrets.
@@marianneoelund2940 I know, just don't know what Alex wants to achieve. It could be a Windows computer does not allow dsd, then dop could be a solution if the dac supports that.
In the early 90s, 1 bit cd players were introduced into the hifi market that marked the beginning of the end of 16bits and 44.1khz cd players. Not that the 1 bit technology was better but because of commercial reasons the big boys then decided to stop manufacturing them and move on to new market like 1bit, 20bits, 24bits and SACD. Anything music beyond 16bits is no longer enjoyable including the 1 bit (bitstream) technology. So why .....
I haven't heard of anyone listening to or analyzing a transfer function of the two. I don't know, if one is more musical than the other maybe it will be the holy grail in terms of quantifying musicality by listening to the pure musicality with the music cancelled out. Then one could just mix the musicality back into the recording.🤣🤣🤣 End of bohemian rant.
When CD launched, many mistakes were made during the mass digital transfer of the 80's, take the first CD releases of the Beatles catalog for instance. Something about using stereo tape heads for the mono transfers mucking it up. Tech was in heavy flux back when SACD launched, there was no telling what would take over I suppose. It should have minimally become the golden standard for recording, as Paul said DSD based CD masters are very much superior and even if you havent heard it yourself, it does make perfect sense in theory. Im most curious to hear what DSD mastered Vinyl sounds like odd as that may seem.
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Paul's clear and organized mind while driving is as good and chill as the Colorado coolness or as he was sitting in a room or his backyard, truly impressive! Obviously, Safety 1st, Paul, as you probably told your kids. We all need you to be around 😊
Many of the old Telarc recordings were made using DSD technology and then transferred over to CD. To mirror Paul's comments, if done right, some of them sound incredible. The Dave Brubeck recording "One Alone" / Solo Piano is one amazing example. The Telarc DSD / CD recordings are the best sounding in my collection.
Wow, Boulder is just one long sprawl of beautiful homes and open space.
Dear Paul,
I love all your super interesting video's!!! Please keep making them!!!
Thank you!!!!!
Kindest regards,
Vincent Pothuizen (music lover and Electronics Teacher from The Netherlands / Eindhoven)
Thanks! I will keep making them. Appreciate the kind words.
DSD sounds really really good, it blew me away, even in ABX 😅
I need to see DSD pulse code and sinewaves in both high and low frequency, as well as loud and soft signals to get my head around it. Perhaps an oscilloscope demonstration would be nice to see? Thanks.
you dont see such fine difference on an oscilloscope.. you need expensive lab analyzers to show that, and even than some tomato ears claim that the neasurable differences are too small to measure.. But better just trust what the guys tell, since he is really not alone with stating just facts. Would be almost insulting to belittle as an opinion. We probably will see a time where pro audio broadcast standards move to DSD, selling all the gear again, just as they did when they moved t 96khz as the new more perfect perfect digital audio. The industry just safed the old dsd technology for a time it can be sold as the abslog sounding digital audio.. finally delivering what they have promissed since many decades..
Next video : "How to eliminate car road noise from your podcast" :))
PS: Thanks for your videos, they disperse the fog quite a bit...
Good Christmas Paul and your family and team
The best CDs in my collection (most analogue sounding) are the ones that were AAD early releases, I think CD got screwed up when the loudness wars kicked in.
Hi Paul!
Is it possibel to sell a copie of the "state-of-the-art DSD A/D converters" best regards Noah
Wait where are you guys celling DSD files or whatever? I know HD Tracks has DSD but I'm not sure that's stuff that was birthed as DSD. Also I don't think Sony has truely said uncle to DSD or maybe they wana try and bring it back cause they made a big deal of it with 1 of their new PCMD recorders cause yes those will write DSD and their new microphones that hear up to 50 KHZ and some new laptop that is hi rez as well. But yes I've heard of SACD but never had 1 or heard 1. So where can I get a true DSD file to finally hear 1?
Yes, unfortunately, most DSD files available today are simply PCM files converted to DSD. That's not the same. You can go here" HTTP://octaverecords.com and choose from any of the music you like. Then, download the file which has the original DSD master included. We're one of the only true DSD studios.
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 Ah okay thanks. So the stuff on the page you sent me is free then? Cause you said to just download stuff. Will do. I've always heard dSD was more natural sounding and so on.
Wow - Paul on the road outside of the PSAudio / Ocatve Records offices! Reminds me of when Paul was doing those great videos in his house and yard in the beginning of the pandemic. I like it - but keep your hands on the wheel! LOL
🤗THANKS PAUL, I JUST WATCHED THE OTHER VIDEO AND SAID I WOULD APPRECIATE A RIDE IN YOUR TESLA 🤷♂️
WHAT DO YOU KNOW I JUST GOT IT 🤗 ALONG WITH ALOT OF INTERESTING AND EDUCATIONAL INFO 🧐
LOOKING 👀 FORWARD TO EXPERIENCING THIS 🤯 and I hope you have plans to do binaural recording 😍😍😍
Snow for Christmas. Nice!
You might want to look into the DSD capabilities of Merging Technologies and their Pyramix DAW.
Thanks. Indeed, since this older video was made, we have switched everything to Merging Technologies.
Here again is a problem with generalization! Not all 'early' CDs sounded awful. Some were quite good.
Just as with records, the sound quality of CDs and any other media varies according to
how well the original recording was made and transferred to the end product.
It is important to consider not only each title, but each Edition of that title.
You are correct, David, but generalization is the only practical way of making a generalized point which is what I am trying to do. The majority of CDs in the beginning were dreadful, as were the digital recorders of the day. But it wasn't true of all things as you correctly point out. There were exceptions. Dire Straits had a great sounding CD (because he went to a lot of trouble to pass the digital audio through multiple analog devices to get rid of the digital harshness). And then there was the Sony Betamax based stereo recorders that used VHS tape. They actually sounded wonderful. Still, my point remains.
So, if I know how to convert properly a music captured in dsd to pcm tracks, I will be able to mix these tracks in pcm environment (as dsd mixing is digitally practically impossible) and still get some not too bad results?
George and Geoff Hazelrigg and Doug Fearn (whose opinions on these things I trust) do say that initial capture in DSD and later-stage conversion to PCM (as you describe) is sonically superior to initial PCM capture.
@@billsallak4887 thank you for your information
Depending on how you convert them to PCM and therein lies the trick. We have developed a mathematically perfect filter called Zephiir that can do it, but most don't cut it - which is why the majority of DSD is mixed in analog and then converted back to DSD.
@@octaverecordsanddsdstudios1285 thank you for your reply
@@BluesBrethrenofPolishPeoplesR My pleasure!
So now I want a SACD player!!! Lol
Thanks for explaination Paul.
Thanks for watching!
I can't relax when you're taking and driving!
I'd love to see a video where a few seconds of music is recorded in the different methods, then you show what the raw data looks like, then sounds like. Even just a few beats of a drum, or solo vocals.
He's nuts fer doin' dat in snowy Colorado ... no matter what Tesla autopilot system hez gots. I get it ... he wants ta look hip .... but he and Octave ain't gettin' any luuuuuuuuuuuuv or respect fer dumbness.
So you record the performer to DSD and then play that back in analog to the mixer? Do typical Analog style studio processing. Then record the master mix as DSD?
Are there generational artifact distortions caused by any DAC artifacts from the source being redigitized in the mix? Perhaps a sampling clock difference between source DAC and output ADC might see residual artifacts at some cyclical reputation rate?
This is where I get hung up with Paul's sales pitch. If your mixing source that is kept in DSD format, then it would seem that the simplest thing to do is to low pass the data stream to get analog and use an analog mixer. Doesn't seem very cutting edge to me but Paul doesn't seem very willing to disclose that very important aspect of their process. As usual, just expected to take Paul's word for it. Any other way just wouldn't make sense. So is the final master analog or do they immediately convert it back to DSD? I would assume it goes from the analog mixer back to DSD. So they could use the same AtoD-DSD converter for the original single tracks as would be used for the final mastered DSD file. Anyone who knows better, please do share.
@@chrisharper2658 From what I understand DSD is the recording/ storage format. Live from studio to DSD storage. DSD playback transcoded to analog for the analog mixing system. Then the analog out to DSD for storage. DSD replacing analog tape.
You can use PCM for editing and mixing because each sample is a number. A PC can crunch them without them being audible. DSD does not work that way.
@@glenncurry3041 Right, DSD doesn't work that way. So it seems that analog mixing is what they would be doing. Otherwise there would be a ton of data stream conversion and I doubt they're doing that. And if they were, then using DSD would be pointless.
@@chrisharper2658 Correct. DSD storage/ recall. Analog mixing and processing. I video when tey want to mix digital streams in real time the hardware operates in 2xbit depth space. IWO to mix two 8 bit video streams in real time the hardware operates in 16 bits and then dithers it back down 8 bits. Audio using 24 bit depth? The required hardware does not exist.
If I understand correctly, doesn't dsd have a greater demand on lower clock jitter in the conversion device?
I think I saw your oil light come on.
@A walrus Yes, but the actual problem is that they couldn't figure out where to put it.
Great topic, but does it need to be brought up while driving?
Isn't there enough distracted driving going on without planning to do it on TH-cam.
p.s.: what do you think of your Tesla?
Sigma Delta conversion (which DSD is based on) is an awesome approach to AD/DA conversion but much music distributed in PCM still benefits from it as it was used in the ADCs in the studio and DACs in your audio gear. DSD as a distribution media is very questionable as 99% of music needs to go through a mastering process where you won't be able to keep the DSD intact and a DSP process in the consumer products. For example, Tesla Model S (what Paul is driving) runs PCM...like all cars do. In fact, it's impossible to do DSD to the DACs in a modern car because you need a DSP to up-mix the audio to the speakers and you can't up-mix using DSD.
The music they are planning to make/record also is not really intended for car listening as I believe he has said in another video. Maybe Paul didn't specifically say car, but definitely mentioned headphones and something else.
@@andrazi4050 DSD as a very niche format for audiophile systems is great. Does it beat PCM 192kHz 24 bits, when both are used optimally? I don't think so.
@@ThinkingBetter You seem to imply that Paul and his team have not thought this out very well and are making a mistake. Is that a fair summary? If so that just seems unlikely to me, knowing how they operate in general.
@@txmike1945 I would recommend not being too obsessed about DSD because PCM can be equally good with sufficient sample rate and bit resolution and is by far more future proof. There is no future for DSD when it comes to advanced digital audio architectures involving any kind of signal processing. On a roadmap of things to come in next generation audio, DSD as distribution media is a dead-end.
@@ThinkingBetter interesting convolution of technologies. You do realize that technically Sigma Delta is not actually a PCM technology? PCM by definition requires that each sample be converted to a specific analog value and that number stored individually. While Sigma Delta only takes the current sample and decides whether the voltage is higher and it turns on, or not. Technical explanations of S/D ADCs usually say something like "and them some magic and a number is generated".
Same on the DAC side. An actual PCM DAC like an RtoR will take each file sample data and generate the specific voltage value for that sample. S/D being single bit only cares whether that bit space is higher voltage. Either turn on for that cycle or not. S/D slowly chases the actual original signal's voltage swings. But each cycle only has a general relationship to the actual original bit value.
how do you get from the analog signal to DSD, are there analog to DSD converters or do you need to convert to say 16 bi or 32 bit digital word first, or are there solid state devices that convert directly to PDM from an analog signal similar to classical A to D
Yes there are ADCs and DACs that will convert directly to and from analog thru DSD. Actually one of the benefits of a high bit rate DSD is the only conversion needed can be done by a good analog balancing transformer!
Analog to DSD bit stream is actually quite simple. It is even used as a "front end" within many analog to PCM converters. Going from the DSD stream to PCM is not simple, but it's all handled in the digital domain where functional density on the chip is very high - and inexpensive.
Similarly, the DSD demodulator is conceptually simple, the only complexity being sophisticated filtering required to suppress ultrasonics. Much of that filtering can be done digitally on the bit stream, before demodulation.
In fact, many DACs today are implemented as digital PCM -> DSD converter/filters followed by analog DSD demodulators. It avoids the requirement for tight resistor tolerances for the R-2R ladder networks in traditional analog DACs, which is relatively expensive to meet. The digital filtering algorithms are highly proprietary, and closely guarded trade secrets.
Paul don't DUI ;) (Driving under the influence of Vlogging). Isn't PDM = Paul's Density Modulation? If not then it should be!
Do you have a recommendation of a good plugin to convert DSD in PCM in real time ?
You mean like DOP? Foobar should do it, try if you like it.
@@robinr5787 DoP isn't PCM. It just uses the same file structure as .wav files, while the data content is completely different.
@@marianneoelund2940 I know, just don't know what Alex wants to achieve. It could be a Windows computer does not allow dsd, then dop could be a solution if the dac supports that.
So basically listening to a vinyl is like listening to a dsd?
Not unless you add copious amounts of crackles, pops, random surface noise, mistracking distortion and decentering wow to the DSD version.
I have done tests recording PCM and DSD on the same device and came to the same conclusion, DSD sounds better and more analog.
merry CHRISTmas
Really cool thanks!
Thanks for watching!
My favourite subject. Thank you for introducing it to me.
Nice Car!
In the early 90s, 1 bit cd players were introduced into the hifi market that marked the beginning of the end of 16bits and 44.1khz cd players. Not that the 1 bit technology was better but because of commercial reasons the big boys then decided to stop manufacturing them and move on to new market like 1bit, 20bits, 24bits and SACD.
Anything music beyond 16bits is no longer enjoyable including the 1 bit (bitstream) technology.
So why .....
I haven't heard of anyone listening to or analyzing a transfer function of the two. I don't know, if one is more musical than the other maybe it will be the holy grail in terms of quantifying musicality by listening to the pure musicality with the music cancelled out. Then one could just mix the musicality back into the recording.🤣🤣🤣 End of bohemian rant.
When CD launched, many mistakes were made during the mass digital transfer of the 80's, take the first CD releases of the Beatles catalog for instance. Something about using stereo tape heads for the mono transfers mucking it up.
Tech was in heavy flux back when SACD launched, there was no telling what would take over I suppose. It should have minimally become the golden standard for recording, as Paul said DSD based CD masters are very much superior and even if you havent heard it yourself, it does make perfect sense in theory. Im most curious to hear what DSD mastered Vinyl sounds like odd as that may seem.
Are there any labels which can be relied on for great, hopefully DSD, recordings?
@@Lacking_something Dont think so, though I think Octave may be looking to change all that ; )
@@AllboroLCD I've bought the octave back catalogue, but hoped there might be other options. Oh well 😃
Flip on FSD 10.7
And you want to stay on the road