Did you say Hamas is trying to maximize civilian casualties but they only killed 600 civilians the rest was idf they killed but that doesn’t matter but when Israel kills 6000 children that’s not trying to maximize civilians casualties
How is old history cringe? The old Egyptians and their history is highly interesting way more than a bunch of modern stuff. Also a lot of history repeats. It's fun to see how certain behaviors are universal regardless of time and culture.
News flash we freed the slaves we didn't creat them ..we bright freedom to the world literally..so stop blaming USA for slavery it's ether on Africa or England not USA a thing that didn't even exist yet
@user-cm9dz2we7v oldest still active constitution was the claim. Idk if it's true, but getting the claim right would be the first step to disproving it
1:06:37 "The left wing of this argument wants is some sign that there going to be some accountability and that we can reign in some of the excesses of the Israeli government when it comes to committing war crimes against civilians." This dude is a clown they just got finished arguing if Hamas was intentionally maximizing civilian causalities. Why would we hold Israel responsible for Hamas using human shields?
That wasn't the question. The question was whether Hamas is INTENTIONALLY MAXIMIZING civilian deaths, not whether they are placing them in harms way. Obviously they are putting civilians in harms way (seems they have more in common with Isreal than they know 😉) but that wasn't the fucking question, was it?
@@keithfilibeck2390 She literally said she'd have an entire discussion on how Hamas is bad. It couldn't have been more direct and unequivocal 😆 It's like you have to intersperse any criticism of Isreal with denunciations of hamas every 15 seconds for you ppl to get that they don't support hamas Like, it's a fucking meme at this point bro 😂
@@jakeleisure8326 she's a radical communist who constantly dog whistles their ALMOST endorsement of political violence, she's an incredibly unreliable person and cannot be trusted on anything she says regarding her political enemies as she is always coaching and watching her words and playing coy games, I don't have to believe a god DAMN thing she says when I've seen the things she admits to elsewhere.
@@jakeleisure8326 It's the same as when people kept asking Trump to denounce white supremacy when he already denounced it multiple times. Don't like the taste of your own medicine, huh?
Destiny is 100 percent correct that once a civilian building is used for military purposes, it loses its protected status and Lycan has no clue what he is talking about.
@@kingryan69 This hurt hearing him speak about. He has no fucking clue what he is saying. Does he really expect soldiers to sit back while being shot at by a machine emplacement in a building to do nothing... you are going to level that building either thru indirect fire or direct superior firepower like heavy weapons. If Israel did a ground invasion within a week with little prior airstrikes then the number of civilian casualties would be in the tens or thousands if not more. Thinking less civilians die in a ground invasion is wild.
Yup HamasAbi over there was saying Ukraine was comitting a war crime by bombing the Kerch Bridge which is used to transport materiel for the front lines. But the actual invasion and bombing of civilian infrastructure by Russia? That wasn't gonna happen remember? American propaganda.
The point wasnt that it didnt loose the protected status, just that civilians never loose their protected status. And that you still cant mow down civilians indiscriminately just because there is a target among them. Cant throw a bomb in a refugee camp to kill one hamas commander. His argument was: Isreal is way to reckless and way to casual with slaughtering civilians.
no shot lycan was in the military if he is suggesting a ground campaign before an extensive air campaign. thats just brain dead and no military ever would do that
Yeah especially since he's American right? US standards is that we do not move forward without having air superiority. We've set our entire military structure on maintaining constant air superiority anywhere in the world. I served on two Carriers from 2010-2014. We have 10x the amount of those than every other nation for a reason.
@@CrestOfArtorias IKR you would kill FAR FAR more civilians. Expecting soldiers to sit there under machine gun fire from a building to not just level it with heavy weapons or indirect fire is wild. There is ZERO requirements to do a riskier option to avoid civilian casualties... If option A would kill 50 civilians while getting 10 soldiers killed you are not forced to do option B which would only kill 10 civilians but get 50 soldiers killed. Now you should look for all options and try to minimize casualties civilian and military wise but there are no requirements.
@@legin777 Yep, US military doctrine is basically "turn the x on the map into a crater with airstrikes and send the boys to clean it up after". Lycan is either bullshiting about being in the military or extremely bad faith.
In Hama’s wildest dreams they never imagined Americans along with the rest of western society would support them this much. A true testimony to how not just ignorant but how tribal our current societies have became. It’s surreal.
It's natural. How is this some big mystery? I hate the left and I hate diet right wingers as well. But you have one side that virtually owns idk, everything ( and until you have sat down and actually looked a whole owns what in the west, many just dismiss this out of some pavlovian knee jerk)and has ran the west into the ground, and then you have an underdog resisting. And before anyone starts w the "u luv Hamas", I don't. I am actually anti semitic. I don't want ANY semites in the west, Jew or Arab, and we don't need to be interacting w them.
it's quite litteraly as if all black people got together to protest for KKK... we are talking about a group that openly wants to destroy everything that represent western societies, from liberty of expression liberty of being, egalitarianism
Russian here. Reading about dictatorships is indeed fun and exciting, but you would never want to live through them. I would much prefer a boring and predictable government with legit elections, thanks.
"Israel is clearly more civilized and therefore needs to be held to higher standards than the Palestinians" Is this a leftist take or a racist one? Because I cant tell the difference anymore.
@@0redfr0g0 i agree with this but i still think you can’t hold both of them to the same standard overall, if a rape victim started to act violently or harshly i will hold them to a lower standard or at least would understand why they act the way they do, i wouldn’t assume they are just barbaric.
@@lukaswithakay what i meant by barbaric here is the general concept of a person killing for the sake of killing, generally we use this term to dehumanize the other side we have a conflict with.
"Hamas is playing a sick game of whack a mole and moving from point to point" -> Lycan describing urban combat and immediately following it up with "noone thinks thats the case". 🤣
Well ya know, the efficency lethality is evidently all that matters now a days. I wonder what he'd do to deminish atrocities by HAMAS had the Iron Dome not been implemented *"disproportionately response to violence...."*
I do not think this civilian/proportonality talk is actually enforced to such a degree. Having to fight a war "by the book" basically lets the enemy dictate your strategic approach, takes your initiative and sets you up for ambushes. Hiding snipers in civilain sites and force an infantery ground assault ... ridiculous ...
Am I crazy or was Lycan basically saying "you should sacrifice more of your people to protect enemy's civilians, even though their own side doesn't care about their civilians"?
There is no such thing as “enemy’s civilians” civilians are civilians lol. Yes, Armies should accept sacrifices to protect civilians, that’s the point.
@@ronanhouston1034 Enemy non-combatants, let's say, because they certainly aren't 100% innocent civilians. They vote in Hamas and they protect them. If they took arms against Hamas and enjoined the IDF with their full support, THEN they would not be enemy.
No military in the history of ever has been as careful with civilian casualties as Lycan is suggesting. Its absurd to even claim that is a standard. I like Lycan and I think he is a good dude but he is way to in his feelings over this conflict to see reason. He has already made up his mind on what is what and will find whatever rationale or excuse to not move from his position
ikr? These people think we should sacrifice endless amounts of our own soldiers to ensure no civilians die needlessly...because "they knew what they were signing up for"...yeah right. They were signing up for special forces, not a sue-is-ide squad. Also they may be really really good at what they do, but they're not invincible. Going into booby trapped tunnels searching for terrorists is them just walking into a killing field. What a bunch of idiocy.
@@femsplainerAnd how many soldiers do you think Israel "sacrificed" in this current conflict? 1200 total Israelis have died and there have only been around 300-400 IDF in that number. Contrasted with a 90% civilian death rate among 20k dead Palestinians.
Its laughable to compare Iraq who had an organized army to Hamas who operates from a dense civilian area, with civilian clothing (proven by their own released videos) and uses the civillian population as a cover. also, gaza is much more homegenic than Iraq, mostly supportive of the Hamas regime with a big part of the population that are ready to become "martyrs" for them.
They had a uniformed military for two weeks. Were you not alive during this time. This is well known to the point that katt Williams made joke about it in a mid 2000s stand up special.
Another point to add, they literally built a bunker/tunnel system under a children’s amusement park. I don’t know a single instance of any other group doing this… really is an accurate representation to Hamas, isn’t it?
@openthinker6562 if tunnels run under the entirety of Gaza, how would they not? And yes, the Ukranian military has been using similar tactics. Funny how we don't hear about how Russia was in the right for bombing apartment buildings because there was ukranian artillery nearby I wonder why 😄 I mean it's hard to even take this seriously, it's so laughable
@@jakeleisure8326 "And yes, the Ukranian military has been using similar tactics. Funny how we don't hear about how Russia was in the right for bombing apartment buildings because there was ukranian artillery nearby I wonder why 😄" I would hope you actually know why. (hint: the situations are completely uncomparable)
Destiny has to play the role of Piers asking 37 times “Is Hamas a terrorist organization though?” Guests: “well you see.. uhh.. there’s nuance.. does the IDF…” Destiny: “Are they a terrorist organization..?” Guest: squirming “uhh it’s complicated see.. uhh..”
Its a good filter, since at this point its blatently obvious members of a certain affiliation are not allowed to acknowledge Hamas as terrorist organization.
@@Tiasung It's depressing how easy of a filter it is. Some thing just saying fuck hamas is actually enough but um and ah on over their specific actual actions.
The funny thing is people consider pointing out the repeated "do you condemn Hamas?" as some sort of gotcha as if the asker has nothing better to say but to repeatedly ask the question, when in reality it could be plowed through by a simple answer of "yes, and they're a terrorist organisation, BUT", then continue to make whatever points one wants to make about Israel or Palestine. Instead they fixate or not calling terrorists terrorists and nuke their own credibility in the process.
The Israel-Palestine arguments are starting to sound more like: _"Men, you can't hit women for ANY reason, you're stronger. Even if they're trying to stab you with a knife, you're wrong for punching her to make her stop. You go to jail, she's just a woman, can't blame her."_
Lycan comparing the iraqi invasion that has a clear military vs underground tunnels from hamas is actual comedy. To compare the us invasion and the risk to the states as well as to iraqi civilians to hamas and how it attacks around or under civilians is an insane conflation.
Yeah, it's a little weird using Iraq as an example. A better analogy would probably be Afghanistan, and honestly, it would likely be very similar if Israel roots out Hamas, installs a democratic government then attempts to leave it'll be like when the US left Afghanistan and the ANA got rinsed.
Or I have seen people try to compare the war in Ukraine and the civilian casualties there... like man people like to reach. These people are only making it so Hamas and more organizations will act like this again and again. Yea it is fucked up but war is fucked up in the first place which is why it should be avoided.
@@watcherofcope The problem is that we left to soon. It was always going to take a couole generations of good foreign policy (building schools, hospitals, infrastructure etc.) for the the Afghans attitudes toward Americans and Democracy to change.
@@0redfr0g0I keep seeing people comparing Iraq and Afghanistan to this war between Israel and Palestine, personally I think it’s almost completely non comparable. The main reason these aren’t comparable is the stakes of the battle. Iraq and Afghanistan weren’t wars where if America lost they’d lose they’re land and have their civilian population slaughtered. The US is not in danger of having Afghanistan or Iraq launching rockets into mainland America. Plus we never got rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan, they are the ones that took back the airfield and got all the American equipment that was left behind. So this would be like if Israel abandoned a huge base full of equipment for Hamas to take. So how is this similar to Israel if they got rid of Hamas? American never got rid of the Insurgency in any of it’s wars with them, it’s pretty much been acknowledged that you can’t beat Insurgencies through military means, that’s why America pulled out of Afghanistan. The cost of the war was too much for the American people to stomach, they aren’t the world police to solve everyone’s problems, and there are good arguments that America just made everything worse. So with all due respect, I don’t see the comparison between Afghanistan and Israel/Palestine, maybe you can clarify.
These armchair tacticians don't even know the first rule of warfare. If you are in a fair fight with proportional responses to your enemy's attacks, then your tactics SUCK. The entire point is to have a disproportionate outcome in favor of your side after a war is declared. The more one sided it is, the better. Also what is proportional to the wanton and gleeful murder of innocent civilians attending a music festival? Why does Hamas get to send as many missiles and rockets at Israel as they want with the intent to kill, hoping the iron dome will fail, while Israel is expected to just sit there and take it and not retaliate in any meaningful way to prevent future attacks of that nature? Also why does Israel have to sacrifice MORE of it's people in a vain effort to try and limit civilian casualties, who appear to be openly complicit with Hamas' tactics of using them as human shield and martyrs? They literally want Israel to care more about the Gaza civilians than their own ruling party...what utter lunacy Lefties just making up their own rules because they don't like it when the strong actually use their power. They'd rather the weak and violent "oppressed" group be allowed to do as they please against the comparably gentle giant in the room. If Israel wanted an end to the Gazan's they could easily accomplish it without all of this humanitarian support of sending knock bombs and leaflets to tell them to clear out to safety, which also necessarily gives up their strategic advantage of surprise that their opponents do NOT provide in return. Soft bigotry of low expectations on full display here.
Some don't know because the pro-Palestine ecosphere is dominated by Islamist, foreign bot farms and communist/tankies/red fascists and they make sure only one side of the story is told. They instruct people to not engage with any questions about Hamas crimes but just continue with a list of talking points including the words genocide, women and children, open air prison, apartheid and so on.
@etrs about a year back Viv was in a conversation on a prime panel with vaush and destiny defending a doxxing list for hours. The video is on the channel but I don't know the name of the video
@@glue300"Debate panel derails into personal drama defending doxxing", 4 hours long, two years ago (I went searching, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of destiny btw lol)
A comment on warfare, as I hear this often: BEFORE ground troops go in, the IDF airforce will take a lot of precautions to minimize civilian casualties: "knock" bombs, dropping leaflets, and calling inhabitants to leave. AFTER ground troops walk in, all that goes out the window if soldiers are endangered. If the Air Force spots an RPG cell, they will airstrike that building immediately. You can't expect the military to take the same precautions under active fire. This is especially prevalent in the IDF, which heavily relies on air superiority.
I don't think any military in the world would act differently. If you would be forced to take out snipers/RPG squads in civilian sites and the only approach that is "allowed" would be an infantry ground assault, the attack plan is basically in the enemies hands and you will most likely send your soldiers into an ambush. All of the military advantage and initiative would be in favor of those, that chose to abuse the civilian site for military purposes. This feels just wrong to me.
@@HansWurst-gm2rx I know in the US military you are very correct. Once soldiers/marines are in an AO air support does not fuck around. If you remotely resemble a threat, they are requesting permission to end everything in your general direction.
@@HansWurst-gm2rx Which is why you need to be harsh to avoid worse in the future. War is fucked beyond reason which is why you need to avoid it wherever possible and frankly no one understands this more than those who have lived thru it.
@@legin777 I am more of a German armchair historian with a lot of interest in WWII. Glad to see my common sense assessment has some overlap with US military doctrine.
@@n3v3rforgott3n9I agree. We should avoid wars whenever it is possible. But sometimes there are bullies that only understand the language of violence - so i guess we have to contend with this problem for a long long time.
Under the Geneva Conventions, it is generally considered a violation of international humanitarian law to use hospitals for military purposes, including as a cover for military activities or as a shield to protect military targets. The specific provisions of the conventions, particularly the Fourth Geneva Convention, address the protection of civilians, including the sick and wounded, and emphasize the need to distinguish between civilian and military objects. Using a hospital for military purposes could jeopardize the special protection afforded to medical facilities and may result in legal consequences. Deliberately placing military installations under hospitals as a tactic to shield them from attack is likely to be viewed as a violation of the principles of the conventions.
Civilians don't lose protection because one side commits war crimes. And even if that would be the case, if Hamas commits war crimes and thus civilians lose their protections, which civilians would that be? Those in Israel? Or those in Gaza? Or both? Can Israel deliberately bomb their own hostages in Gaza? Or would Israel commit a war crime if they target their own citizens just to kill one Hamas commander that has a 30% chance to be there based on the intel Israel has?
No no, you don't understand, the Geneva convention doesn't apply to the side I agree with, only the side I disagree with so I can sound like I understand war -Twitter
This much has been clear to me since I brushed up on the convention a year or so ago. What hasn't been as clear to me until very recently is the story that Hamas deliberately built tunnels under the hospital in order to conduct military operations from there. I foolishly believed that, until a few days ago.
1)That wasn't even the question. The question was whether Hamas WANTS to MAXIMIZE civilian deaths. 2) They aren't TRYING to maximize civilian casualties, but they're perfectly OK with as many of them dying as needed to protect themselves, which is bad enough. 3) While bad, it doesn't justify a 90% civilian death rate comprised of 70% women and children. I find most things don't
@@jakeleisure8326regarding point 3, do you have a source on the 90% figure? Furthermore, the Council on Foreign Relations notes 90% of war deaths from 1990 to 2000 were civilians. Do you think a civilian casualty rate of 90% is unusual?
@@SenorJoeBiden Where is the 90% rate coming from? From Hamas-reported numbers, or from IDF-reported numbers? The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, so I'd want to know where the data is being sourced, to account for bias.
I mentally checked out when Vivian couldn't own the point of Hamas trying to maximize civilian casualties. It's the easiest point in the world to admit to, and it ensures whoever you are talking to is in the same realm of reality. And yet, she still found a way
No, she did give the point after deliberating on the ide. She mentions things hamas does not do, but in the end she agreed. Try reading beond the headline 😉
@@klobmuk I listened to her whole bit, she waffled about if Hamas engaged in the very specific kind of recorded and advertised civilian slaughter ISIS and other terrorist groups do they would film and release them executing hostages, which they don't. Then settled on saying that they would be okay with heavy civilian damage, it was a deflection not an answer. The point of the question asking if you believe Hama's tactics intentionally maximize civilian harm for both sides. For Israelis by attacking civilian infrastructure, Ocober 7th which did have footage of executions and mutilations btw, or their constant rocket attacks against nonmilitary targets in Israel. As well as for Palestinians by intentionally antagonizing Israel into counter-attacks, and embedding military infrastructure with civilians to maximize Palestinian deaths to radicalize and demonize Israel over. Not just saying yes to Hamas intentionally increasing civilian deaths with their tactics is evidence of her delusion and lack of anything meaningful to contribute to the topic, which the rest of that convo reinforced. I actually listened to what she said
30% of Hamas victims on October 7th we're police and military. Israel has managed to kill 5000 children since then. Neither side really care about collateral damage.
To be fair, this is the same person who made a list of people who were "fascist" and then lied about saying that she made it. Also the person who said that any violence against "fascists" is justified.
Love it when Destiny's patriotic streak comes out. I am not an American but I have a tremendous respect for the USA and firmly believe the world would be a much much worse place if it was another country (that wasn't as devoted to liberal values) holding the global power America did after WW2.
How is old history cringe though? The old Egyptians and their history is highly interesting way more than a bunch of modern stuff. Also a lot of history repeats. It's fun to see how certain behaviors are universal regardless of time and culture.
Not really. Any native Lebanese understands that their country got destroyed after they allowed in the Palestinian immigrants. The Druze and the multiple Christian factions had established the most rich and well managed middle eastern country by far. After they allowed mass islamic migration, multiple radical islamic groups rose up and started a bloody civil war that destroyed the country for good and slaughtered a big amount of the Christian population along with deposing the Christian-Muslim united government.
26:34 It isn't a war crime and I'm tired of hearing this point being incorrectly made. If a hospital is being used to store or manufacture weapons, or if it is being used as a base of operations for military personnel, then it may be considered a legitimate military target. There's more than enough proof that these hospitals and schools are being used for military operations. Here's the actual article from the Geneva Convention Article: Article 19 - Wounded and sick IV. Discontinuance of protection of hospitals The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded. Israel has been warning hospitals ahead of time and we have seen videos of Hamas launching rockets, using tunnels, storing hostages and hiding weapons.
To dick ride Destiny a bit I always love the moment Destiny enters a debate/chat. You can see how much respect or disrespect a person has garnered in that moment. For Destiny, for a moment the other people often gets a lot of room to give his argument. This has come from many years of being a voice of reason which is a massive achievement.
15 minutes through that was cringe. Like dude is saying he doesn’t like history while doing a deep dive on Israel. On this pace, that’ll end in him doing an around the world in 80 weeks 😅
@@Scorned What I am getting to is that the numbers we do have are based on Hamas sources. One would think that they knew the amount of fighters they lose on a daily, at least roughly. But them listing every fighter as a civilian is an intentional act of propaganda.
It's akin to expecting a football team to adhere to the rules while their opponents are given free rein to cheat, all the while officials make excuses for their misconduct.
@justinwebber9968 It's so dissimilar, the analogy becomes ridiculous and useless. 1) there are no officials in war 2) nobody is giving "free rein" to Hamas to "cheat." I'm not even sure what you mean by that 3) what officials are excusing Hamas' misconduct? None of this makes any sense
Also israel does benefit from the UN such as safety of Allies espically the US, not to mention not being a parft of the UN has a lot more disadvantages than advaantages and even if it wasn't the case, that doesn't mean israel can not play by the rules large goverments have the responsibility to act as a governing body, not like a terroist orginisation or to not care about effort and just use bombs, Dont know how positives of the UN or the rules hamas plays by validates even the current bombings, would you agree? if im wrong please correct me@@jakeleisure8326
“Since the UNHRC's creation in 2006, it has resolved almost as many resolutions condemning Israel alone than on issues for the rest of the world combined.”
100%. Haters shit on him for reading Wikipedia, but he is all of us - normal people don’t know shit about this conflict. We are all starting from scratch.
@@TonyCox1351 haters shit on him for Wikipedia but it’s so dumb because Wikipedia is great for gaining knowledge, it’s just not a good source to use for an academic paper. Thankfully, Destiny is just trying to gain understanding, not write a paper, so it’s totally fine that he’s using it. Either way he’s doing 10x the amount of research I’ve seen anyone else do.
@@TonyCox1351 The people that shit on Wikipedia are the types of people that have heard once that wikipedia is a bad source of info and have no idea how to think for themselves to assess the reliability of a source. The book worship is retarded, since most books undergo NO peer review or review of any kind. Even Wikipedia articles are reviewed on a community (and sometimes scholarly) basis. Also, the goal of published books is to be SOLD, so there can be conflict of interest between writing a book that has good quality information, and a book that will sell well. Books can be good, but if you have a publishing deal and a keyboard you can legitimately write anything so long as people will buy it.
No, it's a megaphone advertisement for vyvanse. All of us were SUCKERS! slaving away in school fighting to pay attention when we could have just popped this quasi limitless pill.
I first saw destiny on Timcast, and wasn't a fan.. the more I have watched on the Israel Palestine topic, the way he forms his opinions based on genuine research and an actual impartial approach to an incredibly volatile topic has made me respect him more than most people with a platform and following of his size.
Yeah just don't watch anything on Trump...he goes full mental derangement when it comes to anything related to the orange man. It's like he just abandons all reason and doesn't do even the most basic research about the propaganda he happily ingests uncritically. When Destiny's good, he can be real good with his research and ability to reassess his positions, but he has several glaring blind spots where he turns into Rachel Maddow.
@alexangel5029 Tim is super hyperbolic, but I feel like he calls bullshit where he sees it.. but the show timcast is a bit of an echo chamber, and Tim has biases but is usually pretty open about them..
I love Hasan, when he talks about rich people from his 3 million dollars mansion with his cornstar guests and privileged internet personalities friends, well, i found him adorable and so in touch with disadvantaged classes.
1:10:24 war crimes are easy to say but you need to prove it as well, the fact of the matter is Israel does quite a lot to reduce civilian casualties, it is easy to say they obviously don’t care but you need to look at the other side, this is a push and pull, one wants less civilian casualties other wants more
They keep saying Israel is part of the UN and as such needs to be held to a higher standard.. What about Iran? Are they held to such standard? UAE / Saudi /Russia / China?
It is fascinating to me that no one assigns any culpability for the civilian deaths in Gaza to Hamas or Iran for their funding of Hamas, or to the Palestinian people and leaders for failing to govern themselves and manage the most radical elements of their populations? Why did Gazans never fight a civil war against Hamas? Where are the Gazan protests against Hamas? You can argue that Hamas has brutally suppressed dissent in Gaza to such an extent where you can't blame Gazans for being cowardly or complicit with Hamas, but I've never even seen proof that Hamas does that, I'm perfectly willing to believe it, but show me the proof.
WTF how is Iran responsible for civilians in Gaza dying for supplying weapons and training to Hamas? That doesn't make any sense. You can say we don't like it if Iran trains and arms the enemies of our allies. But how the fuck does that make Iran responsible for Gaza civilians dying from US bombs being dropped by IDF pilots flying US planes?
"WE CREATED CIVILIZATION" -Mongoloid person Lil bro forgot about the romans. And the mesopotamian people. And the egyptians. And literally all other civilizations of history that came before the year 1100. The mongols never had a civilization either. They were nomadic. Meaning that they didn't have any kind of real infrastructure. Which is basically what civilization is. Plopping down a few tents and bringing some goats is not civilization, dude.
And even if that were true... Doesn't mean anything because they couldn't maintain DOMANICE to stay the world's superpower over time. Logically, humans improv on past civilizations. Lil bro and other nations are just up the youngest nation in the world manage to learn from all their mistakes then take over lol.
54:15 thank you destiny for rejecting this analogy and all these dumb analogies. This is what people do, come up with false analogies to make sense of the situation and support their argument. It’s very telling when they can’t just discuss the facts on the ground.
To be clear. Every structure in gaza is/was a civilian structure. There are different standards under international law regarding military structures & civilian structures. In most cases if a civilian structure is being used for a military function, headquarters, weapons storage, logistics, launch sites etc. The structure then becomes a military object. Theres a duality to this Where some standards say you should make an effort to preserve what part of the structure is not being used for military purposes. But other scenarios where no effort is needed. Israel has always done a better job at this than the US, hands down. Gaza is a uniquely difficult situation, Which is why we're seeing so many civilian casualties. It's not like afghanistan a rural area with a sparse population. Its an urban environment where civilian structures are being used and shared by combatants. Hamas is deliberately operating out of structures that have civilian occupants. They could choose certain structures for their military operations. Enter remove civilian occupants from them, but they dont. Because using human shields is one of their tactics. Worst case scenario, civilians are killed, And it's used to turn public opinion against israel. Best case scenario, Israel issues warnings ahead of time to evacuate certain structures or areas. And hamas has the ability to leave those areas. This is an extremely difficult conflict. Which is why it is so difficult for people to see what is happening and i understand the sympathy. But war with hamas needed to happen. And nobody on the opposition offers any realistic alternative options. And this is why hamas needs to be removed from power. The longer they have control over gaza, The more civilians are going to suffer.
43:41 that is a ridiculous military strategy, ignoring the fact that Hamas is using mostly civilian infrastructure as bases and launch pads, and that they boobytrap every frickin house, and they were prepared for a ground invasion.
Everything Israel does to Palestine is disproportionate, because Hamas does not have the same capabilities despite the same intent. Why does Israel or any force with greater power have to respond proportionately? That is insane, it is war not a soccer game.
Europeans seething so hard, you couldn't even recognize the joke lmaooo. Instantly got upset and went to the comments to complain about it. Classic Brit.
@@ThePainkiller9995 He is so obviously speaking tongue-in-cheek, you'd have to be willfully ignorant to think he's being serious. Europeans absolutely CAN NOT take jokes about themselves.
Classic Destiny, arguing any history prior to the 1800s is a fruitless pursuit and 'cringe' and that Romans didn't make any worthwhile recordings (it's not like we have whole Senate speeches, preserved cities, engineering blueprints). Truly the most Nebraska Steve answer to date. Funnily enough, his misspeak of Rome 'falling' to the Greeks almost lands true, given that the Eastern Roman Empire (culturally Greek, speaking Greek) would last until the Ottoman seige of Constantinople in 1453. But with no live Tiktoks as evidence, such details are lost to time.
Ehh historians and journalists had lower standards then than now not really gonna get accurate accounts beyond "there was a battle in X location between Y forces."
How is arguing any history prior to the 1800s not a fruitless pursuit, in the context of Israel Palestine? I’m a big history buff but it’s not going to help us draw borders today
Lets say hamas wins, what then? Do they really think that the new palastine will be "free"? It will probably just belong to hamas then and we would have afghanistan 2.0
According to Hamas apologists, it'll turn back into pre-1947 Palestine where Jews, Muslims, and Christians all lived in harmony and sang Kumbaya by the campfire everynight.
13:00 Destiny not knowing European history again. The constitution of San Marino dates back to 1600, 7 years before the first English settlers came to North America. The beginning of the UK constitution was in 1215. It evolved organically from there.
Definitely Gen Z convo. Loose relationship to history, 500 things are going on . Chat, an open article, they talk over each other. They can’t complete one thought to get to another one. It’s like playing ping pong.
@47:40 The one young woman that went to a concert and was ambushed by Hamas along with all the other hostages taken, the young woman that was recorded dead in the back of a pickup truck, her clothing ripped and torn away, her flesh impaled, her limbs broken and out of socket. We don't require execution videos; people have the ability to understand what happened to this woman. While I don't believe there is an easy answer for this conflict, what has happened demands a response, one that apparently cannot be too demanding and cannot be as brutal as it must have been for this young woman that simply wanted to watch a concert. The young woman was half naked and in the back of a pickup truck as a trophy, her legs bent in such an unusual way that they had to have been broken and also dislocated from her pelvic bone, what they must have put her through must have been literal hell on earth. She had impaled marks, her skin having impact wounds, as if she was hung up like cattle for slaughter possibly. There were Palestinians on the streets that came up to the woman's dead body and were spitting upon her dead body, she was on display for the world to see what horrors they had already done to those they've captured, and those people on the streets were not all Hamas they were Palestinians celebrating alongside Hamas, they were there cheering with Hamas, they were happy with what happened to that woman, and I'm quite glad we do not have any video of what tortures she endured before she was murdered. When I went to Iraq for the Army, our leadership showed us video of what the insurgents had in store for us if we were to surrender, something society does not require to understand how brutal these people have been, alleged "revenge" upon Israel, which has quite clearly gone wrong and which now begs the question, what may Israel do in kind? We were fresh soldiers coming in to replace the companies that were activated prior, and leadership had to show us how real the threat was. A man tied to a chair and presented for the insurgent's message, fear in their eyes and with a machete next to their neck as the insurgent rants and raves. After they finished with their script, they took that machete and removed the soldier's head, which took quite a bit of effort and to the horror of the American soldier having their head slowly removed. It took many swings, the soldier screaming and thrashing about for their life, blood gurgling along with their cries for help from the asphyxiation happening with the beheading from blood filling their airway and only for the soldier to soon be on the ground with the insurgent still swinging away until finally they presented the camera the soldiers lopped off head. Obviously, the message was quite clear, do not surrender. We are fortunate we did not see any videos like this from Hamas and the concert goers recently!! In fact, if there were execution videos, I'm pretty confident that would have been enough to allow Israel to do as they pleased to Gaza and no conversations like this would be taking place.
@@lukaswithakay listen, it definitely was. but everything he learned confirmed what he already thought was correct. hes down that hole and its hard to get out. we all got trump parents or sumn… and we love em and know they would think otherwise… but theres a “blockage” that keeps them from truly even processing the opposite view :( sux
59:12 which Israelis are been murdered in the West Bank right now … someone should ask destiny for evidence… that’s what he would do if the roles where reversed
This is a red herring. The only responsibility that matters, IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE MOST POWERFUL SIDE, I.E. ISRAEL. That's how responsibility works, you child.
@@devonmarr9872 I'm sorry you think this is about style and psychology. As we speak thousands of helpless people are dying. We're paralyzed by analysis. Epistemological babble and semantics, over a literal genocide. You're navel-gazing. Split more hairs, while people die every minute. This is revenge. It's ethnic cleansing. It's a theocratic ethnostate. It's counter to every liberal principle. It's worse than SA apartheid. You are a naive child.
Lycan on this panel changes his entire demeanor into one that seems a lot more snarky and big headed. His one-on-one debate seemed extremely civil in as good faith as he could be. He sounds so condescending here.
Another thing from Lycard, about 5 two-state solutions have been given to Palestine, all of which have been denied by them. They don’t want their own state next to Israel, they want one instead of Israel.
Uganda is a signatory to ICC, but Israel isn't. That this isn't the end of discussion on moral high ground, is fantastical. Destiny gets concessions on the most insane shit, just because he states it confidently.
All these people, except for Destiny, have insane and wild views on how armed conflict works, the value of the UN/NATO, how insurgencies work, and everything to do with the entire situation. Man, I wish I could join these panels….. also, for every idiot suggesting,”SeNd inSPecIaL fOrCEs,” should call Marcus Luttrell and ask him how SF vs. large conventional forces, works.
I love how Destiny is finally realizing the conservative critique of how feckless and pointless the UN can be at times and in certain areas. He obviously doesn't think this to the same extent as conservatives, but it frustrates me when ppl on the Left act like they are the end all be all for every single foreign action basically.
The whole world understands power and only power, the reason why the UN doesn’t do shit to countries like russia or the USA is because they know in order to enforce your law you need to be in a military clash with these countries, thus if you are strong you can do whatever the hell you want, while weak countries will have to abide by or otherwise destroyed.
I'm pretty sure the world would be an uglier place if it didn't exist. Obviously important to scrutinize and critique when warranted, though, like with any big org.
The problem is the security council. There needs to be more rotating members, the same 5 countries should not be the sole custodians of world security. I’m fine with the core countries. But there should be like neutral arbiters that get rotated in that have no skin in the game. Maybe their neutrality is verified and elected by the general assembly???? I dunno. I’m not that smart.
@48:00 what is viv going on about? why would hamas want to show videos of executing hostages? they use human shields specifically for a PR manipulation tactic so when isreal is forced to bomb them and there's collateral damage, they can talk about how Israel is killing civilians
The discourse surrounding this conflict has had me pretty depressed seeing so many people defending Hamas, may sound sappy but I am so glad Destiny exists man.
41:00 An army is under no obligation to suffer higher casualties to save civilians of an opposing side. No ariel bombardment would ever be done. Would you say this for WW2? International law means nothing if not enforced. The side that wins get to dictate what rules, laws, etc, are violated (and they rarely incriminate themselves). An army may want to minimize civilian casualties because the consequences that state could face be be detrimental (becoming a pariah, sanctions, other state actors intervening, etc). This boy has no idea how the world really works.
20:39 ffs destiny your just talking about gathering evidence at this point being cringe. I don't see why having to rely on circumstantial evidence makes any argument in favor of making the whole study of history pre 1940 cringe. It sounds more like you're just, irked(?) By having to know a bunch of content that'd require you to at least have a cursory understanding of the subject, meaning an investment of time, probably on stream; and there in lies the problem. Ironic too, given his enthusiasm moments prior when he was talking about the history of our founders; I'm sure much of which has been correlated in the same 'cringe' way he's now complaining over.
@@Zach0451 Yes they ignore parts, because updating stuff is stupid.... Just forget about the 27 amendments. Of coarse it has changed, it was literally still the middle ages when it was made. I bet the constitution in 500 years is going to look a lot more different.
@@chuckles471 Wouldn't be so sure. In over two hundred and thirty years, only one amendment has ever been repealed, and that was to unban alcohol. Good luck getting something serious changed.
Agreed! I don't agree with Vivian and her reputation in my mind evokes frustration but the people making personal digs at her are knuckle draggers more interested in doing drive-by remarks based on pure tribalism instead of listening to the arguments may they be good or bad. The Kick chat is gross as hell too.
@@fregaropaVivian has consistently proven she has no credibility on virtually any subject she professes to care about. Once you’ve heard her enough, you’re not obligated to put up with it anymore
@@giovalladares1022 Sure, but the default response once you reach the point of "not being obligated to put up with it anymore" beyond refuting what they/she/he/xe/whatever says would be to stop engaging, not making remarks on one's appearance or being preoccupied with what genitalia they have. At the end of the day to an outside observer it says a lot more about the person levying the attacks than the person targeted.
So the State of Palestine has been admitted as an observational state on behalf of all Palestinians since 2012. They represent the Palestinians. There have been no resolutions condemning Palestinian actions in the UN...
I’m sorry, but I don’t want to hear war strategies from keyboard warriors, please get someone with Military command experience to say if a ground invasion would be more successful.
Every time that dude said “ICC” my brain said “won’t let me be”. My brain sang one incorrect bar of Eminem to itself 30 times in 5 minutes. Just thought y’all should know.
43:09 pretty sure the second invasion of iraq started with bombing and shelling of military AND key civilian structures (like power plants and highways, things that will aid a military effort) in the first night. I think theres footage of it too lol
48:49 what do you mean? Hostages are valuable for Hamas, Of course they don’t want to execute them, but that does not have anything to do with civilian casualties or murderous intent.
Bro... the Magna Carta is from 1215.... its what all western democracies are based on..... significantly more important and FAR older than the US constitution. Cope stream.
Why are people so naive to believe that it was possible to invade Gaza without the bombing campaign. Do you really think than if israel asks 1.2 million Gazans to move south those people would have done it ? Of course not .
What I hate about these debates is the naivety of warfare itself and the moral self-righteousness. You believe a ground campaign is less destructive than airstrikes you have zero understanding of war
Destiny cannot win. He didn’t know the location of all 197(or so) countries in the world. So Vivian takes a shot at him for not knowing. Because he decided to stream himself learning them. So now he knows it and they make fun of him for learning.
Bruh lycan was in the military? No fucking shot😂 He had to be a fucking POG or something because he doesn’t understand how messy and complex urban combat is,especially against a insurgency situation in Gaza where one moment that same dude who shot at you puts down his rifle and now you can’t engage because of ROE. The IDF for sure could’ve approached the ground incursion differently 100% but bro thinks war is like COD were no civilians die from the good guys unless it’s a cutscene.😭
I don't think the UN didn't impose resolution on Hamas is because they are not a UN member. I could be wrong, but even if they are not a member, Gaza is still Under the UN's jurisdiction, isn't? The real reason I think is the UN is obsessed with Israel, And there are tons of Muslim countries yet only one Israel and one US. There are tons of terrible things happened in the middle east, most of those places are UN members. Like Iran must have lost count of genocides happened in its own country.yet still half of the resolutions are made against Israel, I wonder why. Actually Israel is the closest on the Actually give a f about the UN for a bit.That's another reason. The bar for Hamas and some other governments have set their bar to low to impose resolutions on.
40:22 Haven’t watched any further but the precautionary principle in IHL does prescribe that “All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life”.
@@CrestOfArtorias You could argue that the time given to civilians was very short (also backed up by humanitarian organizations) + didn’t Israel recently bomb the south of Gaza, where the IDF told the civilians to move to? NPR for example reported that “artillery fire has hit schools, residential towers and overcrowded United Nations refugee shelters south of the Wadi Gaza wetlands.” I’m not as daft to claim that Israel is conducting a “genocide” in Gaza, but I’m not convinced that all of their strikes have been necessary to achieve their military objectives.
@@alexd4566 One could argue that, but that would be pointless because there is no standard anyone including Israel agreed on. Is 6 hour not enough? Maybe, I know I would get my ass out of there in 6 hours. Is 12 hours not enough? Possible. Is 48 hours enough? Again no idea. The fact that they warn the people alone demonstrates enough willingness to hold back in my book. You will find no army anywhere else in the world going the extra mile to warn civilians of an incoming attack. And to answer your question: yes they did target sites in the south but they didn't bombard large swathes of the South. In regards to your position that you are not convinced that all their strikes were necessary: irrelevant, you have no idea what the actual objectives are, nor do you have or will you ever have the IDF intelligence to accurately assess that position.
22:02 Greeks came first, Romans basically just transplanted a shit ton of greek culture and religion into their own because it was all very cool and they wanted it too :D
Destiny Gets Blindsided After Conceding Point In Good Faith In Israel Debate
►th-cam.com/video/7Q1gZqCiC28/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Did you say Hamas is trying to maximize civilian casualties but they only killed 600 civilians the rest was idf they killed but that doesn’t matter but when Israel kills 6000 children that’s not trying to maximize civilians casualties
How is old history cringe? The old Egyptians and their history is highly interesting way more than a bunch of modern stuff. Also a lot of history repeats. It's fun to see how certain behaviors are universal regardless of time and culture.
News flash we freed the slaves we didn't creat them ..we bright freedom to the world literally..so stop blaming USA for slavery it's ether on Africa or England not USA a thing that didn't even exist yet
@user-cm9dz2we7v oldest still active constitution was the claim. Idk if it's true, but getting the claim right would be the first step to disproving it
1:06:37 "The left wing of this argument wants is some sign that there going to be some accountability and that we can reign in some of the excesses of the Israeli government when it comes to committing war crimes against civilians."
This dude is a clown they just got finished arguing if Hamas was intentionally maximizing civilian causalities. Why would we hold Israel responsible for Hamas using human shields?
Imagine being so bad faith that you can’t even say Hamas is intentionally putting civilians in harms way or is in favor of dead Israeli civilians
Vivian knows, and supports it, they are just a avid fan of Doublethink and propaganda.
That wasn't the question. The question was whether Hamas is INTENTIONALLY MAXIMIZING civilian deaths, not whether they are placing them in harms way.
Obviously they are putting civilians in harms way (seems they have more in common with Isreal than they know 😉) but that wasn't the fucking question, was it?
@@keithfilibeck2390 She literally said she'd have an entire discussion on how Hamas is bad. It couldn't have been more direct and unequivocal 😆
It's like you have to intersperse any criticism of Isreal with denunciations of hamas every 15 seconds for you ppl to get that they don't support hamas
Like, it's a fucking meme at this point bro 😂
@@jakeleisure8326 she's a radical communist who constantly dog whistles their ALMOST endorsement of political violence, she's an incredibly unreliable person and cannot be trusted on anything she says regarding her political enemies as she is always coaching and watching her words and playing coy games, I don't have to believe a god DAMN thing she says when I've seen the things she admits to elsewhere.
@@jakeleisure8326 It's the same as when people kept asking Trump to denounce white supremacy when he already denounced it multiple times. Don't like the taste of your own medicine, huh?
Destiny is 100 percent correct that once a civilian building is used for military purposes, it loses its protected status and Lycan has no clue what he is talking about.
and talking for five minutes doesnt change that.
fallujah they bombed the shit out of it.
its like hes just making shit up.
@@kingryan69 This hurt hearing him speak about. He has no fucking clue what he is saying. Does he really expect soldiers to sit back while being shot at by a machine emplacement in a building to do nothing... you are going to level that building either thru indirect fire or direct superior firepower like heavy weapons. If Israel did a ground invasion within a week with little prior airstrikes then the number of civilian casualties would be in the tens or thousands if not more. Thinking less civilians die in a ground invasion is wild.
Yup HamasAbi over there was saying Ukraine was comitting a war crime by bombing the Kerch Bridge which is used to transport materiel for the front lines.
But the actual invasion and bombing of civilian infrastructure by Russia? That wasn't gonna happen remember? American propaganda.
The point wasnt that it didnt loose the protected status, just that civilians never loose their protected status.
And that you still cant mow down civilians indiscriminately just because there is a target among them.
Cant throw a bomb in a refugee camp to kill one hamas commander.
His argument was: Isreal is way to reckless and way to casual with slaughtering civilians.
@@heinshaaine8153but he has literally no standard to base that by other than feelings.
no shot lycan was in the military if he is suggesting a ground campaign before an extensive air campaign. thats just brain dead and no military ever would do that
Aye, also the idea that somehow CQB in a heavily populated urban area is less likely to kill civilians is just idiotic.
Yeah especially since he's American right? US standards is that we do not move forward without having air superiority. We've set our entire military structure on maintaining constant air superiority anywhere in the world. I served on two Carriers from 2010-2014. We have 10x the amount of those than every other nation for a reason.
@@CrestOfArtorias IKR you would kill FAR FAR more civilians. Expecting soldiers to sit there under machine gun fire from a building to not just level it with heavy weapons or indirect fire is wild. There is ZERO requirements to do a riskier option to avoid civilian casualties... If option A would kill 50 civilians while getting 10 soldiers killed you are not forced to do option B which would only kill 10 civilians but get 50 soldiers killed. Now you should look for all options and try to minimize casualties civilian and military wise but there are no requirements.
@@legin777honestly so sick you got to frick around on a carrier.
@@legin777 Yep, US military doctrine is basically "turn the x on the map into a crater with airstrikes and send the boys to clean it up after". Lycan is either bullshiting about being in the military or extremely bad faith.
In Hama’s wildest dreams they never imagined Americans along with the rest of western society would support them this much. A true testimony to how not just ignorant but how tribal our current societies have became. It’s surreal.
Yep because they know how to play the victim/oppression card. They know what braindead leftists want to hear.
its all for that Reddit karma and twitter likes
Support comes purely from the left wingers. IT was basically relic from soviet era setup but lot of lefties are siding with old soviet propaganda.
It's natural. How is this some big mystery? I hate the left and I hate diet right wingers as well. But you have one side that virtually owns idk, everything ( and until you have sat down and actually looked a whole owns what in the west, many just dismiss this out of some pavlovian knee jerk)and has ran the west into the ground, and then you have an underdog resisting. And before anyone starts w the "u luv Hamas", I don't. I am actually anti semitic. I don't want ANY semites in the west, Jew or Arab, and we don't need to be interacting w them.
it's quite litteraly as if all black people got together to protest for KKK...
we are talking about a group that openly wants to destroy everything that represent western societies, from liberty of expression liberty of being, egalitarianism
As a gigantic history nerd, it's been very pleasing to see someone falling down into the history rabbit hole.
How big we talking?
It's incredibly lacking in this space.
This is worse then when he fell down the league of legend rabbit hole
@@vegbeg9170 probably because not many people care about it
@@WillD-jj9kg Unfortunately, they're very happy to make historical claims, Destiny included. I'm glad he's finally researching it more.
Russian here. Reading about dictatorships is indeed fun and exciting, but you would never want to live through them. I would much prefer a boring and predictable government with legit elections, thanks.
He’s clearly doing a bit, lol
"Israel is clearly more civilized and therefore needs to be held to higher standards than the Palestinians" Is this a leftist take or a racist one? Because I cant tell the difference anymore.
Would you hold a rape victim to the same standard as the rapist?
@@omarannajjar4329 Yes, if the rape victim keeps raping other people we hold them to the same standard.
@@0redfr0g0 i agree with this but i still think you can’t hold both of them to the same standard overall, if a rape victim started to act violently or harshly i will hold them to a lower standard or at least would understand why they act the way they do, i wouldn’t assume they are just barbaric.
@@omarannajjar4329How many times does a victim get to be the perpetrator before they can be labeled barbaric, in your view?
@@lukaswithakay what i meant by barbaric here is the general concept of a person killing for the sake of killing, generally we use this term to dehumanize the other side we have a conflict with.
"Hamas is playing a sick game of whack a mole and moving from point to point" -> Lycan describing urban combat and immediately following it up with "noone thinks thats the case". 🤣
Well ya know, the efficency lethality is evidently all that matters now a days. I wonder what he'd do to deminish atrocities by HAMAS had the Iron Dome not been implemented *"disproportionately response to violence...."*
I do not think this civilian/proportonality talk is actually enforced to such a degree. Having to fight a war "by the book" basically lets the enemy dictate your strategic approach, takes your initiative and sets you up for ambushes. Hiding snipers in civilain sites and force an infantery ground assault ... ridiculous ...
Am I crazy or was Lycan basically saying "you should sacrifice more of your people to protect enemy's civilians, even though their own side doesn't care about their civilians"?
There is no such thing as “enemy’s civilians” civilians are civilians lol. Yes, Armies should accept sacrifices to protect civilians, that’s the point.
@@ronanhouston1034which the IDF does, by securing humanitarian corridors at risk to its own civilians.
@@ronanhouston1034 Enemy non-combatants, let's say, because they certainly aren't 100% innocent civilians. They vote in Hamas and they protect them. If they took arms against Hamas and enjoined the IDF with their full support, THEN they would not be enemy.
@@ronanhouston1034
There is obviously such a thing as your enemy's civilians.. what nonsense is this?
People like lycan make me more pro Israel
No military in the history of ever has been as careful with civilian casualties as Lycan is suggesting. Its absurd to even claim that is a standard. I like Lycan and I think he is a good dude but he is way to in his feelings over this conflict to see reason. He has already made up his mind on what is what and will find whatever rationale or excuse to not move from his position
ikr? These people think we should sacrifice endless amounts of our own soldiers to ensure no civilians die needlessly...because "they knew what they were signing up for"...yeah right. They were signing up for special forces, not a sue-is-ide squad. Also they may be really really good at what they do, but they're not invincible. Going into booby trapped tunnels searching for terrorists is them just walking into a killing field.
What a bunch of idiocy.
As a Jew who has many family in Israel, I will forever think Lycan is an idiotic scumbag. Hasan level scum.
@@femsplainerAnd how many soldiers do you think Israel "sacrificed" in this current conflict? 1200 total Israelis have died and there have only been around 300-400 IDF in that number. Contrasted with a 90% civilian death rate among 20k dead Palestinians.
you love dead babies don't you @@femsplainer
"5 replies"
Its laughable to compare Iraq who had an organized army to Hamas who operates from a dense civilian area, with civilian clothing (proven by their own released videos) and uses the civillian population as a cover.
also, gaza is much more homegenic than Iraq, mostly supportive of the Hamas regime with a big part of the population that are ready to become "martyrs" for them.
They had a uniformed military for two weeks. Were you not alive during this time. This is well known to the point that katt Williams made joke about it in a mid 2000s stand up special.
Another point to add, they literally built a bunker/tunnel system under a children’s amusement park. I don’t know a single instance of any other group doing this…
really is an accurate representation to Hamas, isn’t it?
@openthinker6562 if tunnels run under the entirety of Gaza, how would they not?
And yes, the Ukranian military has been using similar tactics. Funny how we don't hear about how Russia was in the right for bombing apartment buildings because there was ukranian artillery nearby
I wonder why 😄
I mean it's hard to even take this seriously, it's so laughable
@@jakeleisure8326 "And yes, the Ukranian military has been using similar tactics. Funny how we don't hear about how Russia was in the right for bombing apartment buildings because there was ukranian artillery nearby
I wonder why 😄"
I would hope you actually know why. (hint: the situations are completely uncomparable)
@swordyshield I know why. Namely that Isreal is our ally and Russia is not
I had a longer reply that was deleted
Destiny has to play the role of Piers asking 37 times “Is Hamas a terrorist organization though?”
Guests: “well you see.. uhh.. there’s nuance.. does the IDF…”
Destiny: “Are they a terrorist organization..?”
Guest: squirming “uhh it’s complicated see.. uhh..”
Its a good filter, since at this point its blatently obvious members of a certain affiliation are not allowed to acknowledge Hamas as terrorist organization.
@@Tiasung It's depressing how easy of a filter it is. Some thing just saying fuck hamas is actually enough but um and ah on over their specific actual actions.
The funny thing is people consider pointing out the repeated "do you condemn Hamas?" as some sort of gotcha as if the asker has nothing better to say but to repeatedly ask the question, when in reality it could be plowed through by a simple answer of "yes, and they're a terrorist organisation, BUT", then continue to make whatever points one wants to make about Israel or Palestine. Instead they fixate or not calling terrorists terrorists and nuke their own credibility in the process.
Nuance*
Things that didn't happen for $400 Alex
The Israel-Palestine arguments are starting to sound more like: _"Men, you can't hit women for ANY reason, you're stronger. Even if they're trying to stab you with a knife, you're wrong for punching her to make her stop. You go to jail, she's just a woman, can't blame her."_
Lol you're right.
The “you can’t ever punch down” ethic doesn’t work outside of a Marxist lens
This analogy makes sense but based on your other comments I get why you used it.
Lycan comparing the iraqi invasion that has a clear military vs underground tunnels from hamas is actual comedy. To compare the us invasion and the risk to the states as well as to iraqi civilians to hamas and how it attacks around or under civilians is an insane conflation.
Yeah, it's a little weird using Iraq as an example. A better analogy would probably be Afghanistan, and honestly, it would likely be very similar if Israel roots out Hamas, installs a democratic government then attempts to leave it'll be like when the US left Afghanistan and the ANA got rinsed.
maybe but atleast he is debating and trying to understand I think but I could be wrong
Or I have seen people try to compare the war in Ukraine and the civilian casualties there... like man people like to reach. These people are only making it so Hamas and more organizations will act like this again and again. Yea it is fucked up but war is fucked up in the first place which is why it should be avoided.
@@watcherofcope The problem is that we left to soon. It was always going to take a couole generations of good foreign policy (building schools, hospitals, infrastructure etc.) for the the Afghans attitudes toward Americans and Democracy to change.
@@0redfr0g0I keep seeing people comparing Iraq and Afghanistan to this war between Israel and Palestine, personally I think it’s almost completely non comparable. The main reason these aren’t comparable is the stakes of the battle. Iraq and Afghanistan weren’t wars where if America lost they’d lose they’re land and have their civilian population slaughtered. The US is not in danger of having Afghanistan or Iraq launching rockets into mainland America. Plus we never got rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan, they are the ones that took back the airfield and got all the American equipment that was left behind. So this would be like if Israel abandoned a huge base full of equipment for Hamas to take. So how is this similar to Israel if they got rid of Hamas? American never got rid of the Insurgency in any of it’s wars with them, it’s pretty much been acknowledged that you can’t beat Insurgencies through military means, that’s why America pulled out of Afghanistan. The cost of the war was too much for the American people to stomach, they aren’t the world police to solve everyone’s problems, and there are good arguments that America just made everything worse. So with all due respect, I don’t see the comparison between Afghanistan and Israel/Palestine, maybe you can clarify.
These armchair tacticians don't even know the first rule of warfare. If you are in a fair fight with proportional responses to your enemy's attacks, then your tactics SUCK. The entire point is to have a disproportionate outcome in favor of your side after a war is declared. The more one sided it is, the better.
Also what is proportional to the wanton and gleeful murder of innocent civilians attending a music festival? Why does Hamas get to send as many missiles and rockets at Israel as they want with the intent to kill, hoping the iron dome will fail, while Israel is expected to just sit there and take it and not retaliate in any meaningful way to prevent future attacks of that nature? Also why does Israel have to sacrifice MORE of it's people in a vain effort to try and limit civilian casualties, who appear to be openly complicit with Hamas' tactics of using them as human shield and martyrs? They literally want Israel to care more about the Gaza civilians than their own ruling party...what utter lunacy
Lefties just making up their own rules because they don't like it when the strong actually use their power. They'd rather the weak and violent "oppressed" group be allowed to do as they please against the comparably gentle giant in the room. If Israel wanted an end to the Gazan's they could easily accomplish it without all of this humanitarian support of sending knock bombs and leaflets to tell them to clear out to safety, which also necessarily gives up their strategic advantage of surprise that their opponents do NOT provide in return.
Soft bigotry of low expectations on full display here.
fr fr bro
100% true
👏Bravo, exactingly put.
You needed three paragraphs for that? 🙄
I'm sure you could convince me you're a full blown psycho in 2 😆
Rusbot@@jakeleisure8326
Why are people always talking about the 17 years of blockade, but not the 17 years of rockets into Israel?
Because Palestinian rockets are shit and Israel has Iron dome
Some don't know because the pro-Palestine ecosphere is dominated by Islamist, foreign bot farms and communist/tankies/red fascists and they make sure only one side of the story is told. They instruct people to not engage with any questions about Hamas crimes but just continue with a list of talking points including the words genocide, women and children, open air prison, apartheid and so on.
How did Viv weasel themselves back into this space after the whole "I have a list" drama?
1. Word.
Vtuber
Obviously she's been using her list to systematically take down her foes.
I'm out of the loop, someone explain this to me
@etrs about a year back Viv was in a conversation on a prime panel with vaush and destiny defending a doxxing list for hours. The video is on the channel but I don't know the name of the video
@@glue300"Debate panel derails into personal drama defending doxxing", 4 hours long, two years ago (I went searching, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of destiny btw lol)
A comment on warfare, as I hear this often:
BEFORE ground troops go in, the IDF airforce will take a lot of precautions to minimize civilian casualties: "knock" bombs, dropping leaflets, and calling inhabitants to leave.
AFTER ground troops walk in, all that goes out the window if soldiers are endangered. If the Air Force spots an RPG cell, they will airstrike that building immediately. You can't expect the military to take the same precautions under active fire. This is especially prevalent in the IDF, which heavily relies on air superiority.
I don't think any military in the world would act differently. If you would be forced to take out snipers/RPG squads in civilian sites and the only approach that is "allowed" would be an infantry ground assault, the attack plan is basically in the enemies hands and you will most likely send your soldiers into an ambush. All of the military advantage and initiative would be in favor of those, that chose to abuse the civilian site for military purposes. This feels just wrong to me.
@@HansWurst-gm2rx I know in the US military you are very correct. Once soldiers/marines are in an AO air support does not fuck around. If you remotely resemble a threat, they are requesting permission to end everything in your general direction.
@@HansWurst-gm2rx Which is why you need to be harsh to avoid worse in the future. War is fucked beyond reason which is why you need to avoid it wherever possible and frankly no one understands this more than those who have lived thru it.
@@legin777 I am more of a German armchair historian with a lot of interest in WWII. Glad to see my common sense assessment has some overlap with US military doctrine.
@@n3v3rforgott3n9I agree. We should avoid wars whenever it is possible. But sometimes there are bullies that only understand the language of violence - so i guess we have to contend with this problem for a long long time.
Destiny's voice getting more and more fried each day is an amazing reflection of his increasing desperation for a good point in support of Palestine
Under the Geneva Conventions, it is generally considered a violation of international humanitarian law to use hospitals for military purposes, including as a cover for military activities or as a shield to protect military targets. The specific provisions of the conventions, particularly the Fourth Geneva Convention, address the protection of civilians, including the sick and wounded, and emphasize the need to distinguish between civilian and military objects.
Using a hospital for military purposes could jeopardize the special protection afforded to medical facilities and may result in legal consequences. Deliberately placing military installations under hospitals as a tactic to shield them from attack is likely to be viewed as a violation of the principles of the conventions.
Civilians don't lose protection because one side commits war crimes. And even if that would be the case, if Hamas commits war crimes and thus civilians lose their protections, which civilians would that be? Those in Israel? Or those in Gaza? Or both? Can Israel deliberately bomb their own hostages in Gaza? Or would Israel commit a war crime if they target their own citizens just to kill one Hamas commander that has a 30% chance to be there based on the intel Israel has?
No no, you don't understand, the Geneva convention doesn't apply to the side I agree with, only the side I disagree with so I can sound like I understand war
-Twitter
Now tell me about jurisdiction. 🤣💀
genuinely didnt know that, i hoped it was a war crime as it seemed like a weird loophole
This much has been clear to me since I brushed up on the convention a year or so ago. What hasn't been as clear to me until very recently is the story that Hamas deliberately built tunnels under the hospital in order to conduct military operations from there. I foolishly believed that, until a few days ago.
I love how everyone is blabbering away until Destiny enters the debate, and then everyone seems to be quiet.
I did not watch video, all I hear is a 60 yo chain smoker entering the chat.
It’s a classic Destiny panel. They even threw in MxVivanWolf to give indefensible takes just like old times.
It's what happens when the chad enters the room... All the betas hush 😈😈😈
Judging from the teasers, this is gonna be a great, good-faith conversation where we can respect each other's opinions.
right........?
Seemed pretty respectful to me, at least compared to other conversations I've seen Destiny have.
No cuz lycan is a pathetic leech
45:37 that silence though, holy shit why is it so hard to say that Hamas has a vested interest in pillaging Israel?
1)That wasn't even the question. The question was whether Hamas WANTS to MAXIMIZE civilian deaths.
2) They aren't TRYING to maximize civilian casualties, but they're perfectly OK with as many of them dying as needed to protect themselves, which is bad enough.
3) While bad, it doesn't justify a 90% civilian death rate comprised of 70% women and children. I find most things don't
@@jakeleisure8326regarding point 3, do you have a source on the 90% figure?
Furthermore, the Council on Foreign Relations notes 90% of war deaths from 1990 to 2000 were civilians.
Do you think a civilian casualty rate of 90% is unusual?
@@SenorJoeBiden Where is the 90% rate coming from? From Hamas-reported numbers, or from IDF-reported numbers? The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, so I'd want to know where the data is being sourced, to account for bias.
I mentally checked out when Vivian couldn't own the point of Hamas trying to maximize civilian casualties. It's the easiest point in the world to admit to, and it ensures whoever you are talking to is in the same realm of reality.
And yet, she still found a way
No, she did give the point after deliberating on the ide. She mentions things hamas does not do, but in the end she agreed. Try reading beond the headline 😉
@@klobmuk I listened to her whole bit, she waffled about if Hamas engaged in the very specific kind of recorded and advertised civilian slaughter ISIS and other terrorist groups do they would film and release them executing hostages, which they don't. Then settled on saying that they would be okay with heavy civilian damage, it was a deflection not an answer.
The point of the question asking if you believe Hama's tactics intentionally maximize civilian harm for both sides.
For Israelis by attacking civilian infrastructure, Ocober 7th which did have footage of executions and mutilations btw, or their constant rocket attacks against nonmilitary targets in Israel.
As well as for Palestinians by intentionally antagonizing Israel into counter-attacks, and embedding military infrastructure with civilians to maximize Palestinian deaths to radicalize and demonize Israel over.
Not just saying yes to Hamas intentionally increasing civilian deaths with their tactics is evidence of her delusion and lack of anything meaningful to contribute to the topic, which the rest of that convo reinforced.
I actually listened to what she said
@@powercore2000 well done, you even got the part where she reluctantly kind of said yes to a watered down version of the question. 👏
30% of Hamas victims on October 7th we're police and military. Israel has managed to kill 5000 children since then. Neither side really care about collateral damage.
To be fair, this is the same person who made a list of people who were "fascist" and then lied about saying that she made it. Also the person who said that any violence against "fascists" is justified.
Love it when Destiny's patriotic streak comes out.
I am not an American but I have a tremendous respect for the USA and firmly believe the world would be a much much worse place if it was another country (that wasn't as devoted to liberal values) holding the global power America did after WW2.
If you don't mind answering. Where are you from?
Eastern EU, former soviet satellite state
How is old history cringe though? The old Egyptians and their history is highly interesting way more than a bunch of modern stuff. Also a lot of history repeats. It's fun to see how certain behaviors are universal regardless of time and culture.
@@LisbonLion7Generic, tired, boring
@@LisbonLion7lolol😂
I'm Lebanese our history is incredibly convoluted. You will get a different opinion depending on where you grew up and the religion you follow.
But there are fscts
Not really. Any native Lebanese understands that their country got destroyed after they allowed in the Palestinian immigrants. The Druze and the multiple Christian factions had established the most rich and well managed middle eastern country by far. After they allowed mass islamic migration, multiple radical islamic groups rose up and started a bloody civil war that destroyed the country for good and slaughtered a big amount of the Christian population along with deposing the Christian-Muslim united government.
@@ThriceGr8nah it’s been like 70 years
@@ThriceGr8and yes it is extremely fucked up
Just wrote an argumentative piece on the 2022 elections to serve as a writing sample for jobs.
26:34 It isn't a war crime and I'm tired of hearing this point being incorrectly made.
If a hospital is being used to store or manufacture weapons, or if it is being used as a base of operations for military personnel, then it may be considered a legitimate military target. There's more than enough proof that these hospitals and schools are being used for military operations.
Here's the actual article from the Geneva Convention Article:
Article 19 - Wounded and sick IV. Discontinuance of protection of hospitals
The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.
Israel has been warning hospitals ahead of time and we have seen videos of Hamas launching rockets, using tunnels, storing hostages and hiding weapons.
Tough to debate insanity right from the start
To dick ride Destiny a bit I always love the moment Destiny enters a debate/chat. You can see how much respect or disrespect a person has garnered in that moment. For Destiny, for a moment the other people often gets a lot of room to give his argument. This has come from many years of being a voice of reason which is a massive achievement.
Destiny: medieval and classical history is cringe.
Metatron: anyway, I started blasting.
Based Metatron enjoyer
Nice
@@D00Rb3LL based steve mre enjoyer
I got so triggered by the “All history before 1800 sucks” rant 😂
Pretty true though
Everything before is where it gets really interestinf
That rant was true torture.
Made me want to kms
15 minutes through that was cringe. Like dude is saying he doesn’t like history while doing a deep dive on Israel. On this pace, that’ll end in him doing an around the world in 80 weeks 😅
Whenever numbers about dead civilians in Gaza are being brought up, my question remains:
How high are the numbers of dead Hamas fighters?
@@Scorned
What I am getting to is that the numbers we do have are based on Hamas sources.
One would think that they knew the amount of fighters they lose on a daily, at least roughly.
But them listing every fighter as a civilian is an intentional act of propaganda.
@@ScornedThey don’t even have uniforms. It’s so wild that there are people in their camp. It’s the classic “cute kid with a knife behind their back”
Yep. This question needs to be asked
Literally none.
It's akin to expecting a football team to adhere to the rules while their opponents are given free rein to cheat, all the while officials make excuses for their misconduct.
No, war is not like football, sorry. What a ridiculous oversimplification
@@jakeleisure8326 It's not a like-for-like comparison; it's an analogy. Do you genuinely believe I'm equating war with football?
@justinwebber9968 It's so dissimilar, the analogy becomes ridiculous and useless.
1) there are no officials in war
2) nobody is giving "free rein" to Hamas to "cheat." I'm not even sure what you mean by that
3) what officials are excusing Hamas' misconduct?
None of this makes any sense
Also israel does benefit from the UN such as safety of Allies espically the US, not to mention not being a parft of the UN has a lot more disadvantages than advaantages and even if it wasn't the case, that doesn't mean israel can not play by the rules large goverments have the responsibility to act as a governing body, not like a terroist orginisation or to not care about effort and just use bombs, Dont know how positives of the UN or the rules hamas plays by validates even the current bombings, would you agree? if im wrong please correct me@@jakeleisure8326
@@jakeleisure8326 you are either severly autistic or 12 years old
“Since the UNHRC's creation in 2006, it has resolved almost as many resolutions condemning Israel alone than on issues for the rest of the world combined.”
Hearing him nerd out about middle eastern history with such genuine interest is so wholesome tbh 😊
History is dope
100%. Haters shit on him for reading Wikipedia, but he is all of us - normal people don’t know shit about this conflict. We are all starting from scratch.
@@TonyCox1351 haters shit on him for Wikipedia but it’s so dumb because Wikipedia is great for gaining knowledge, it’s just not a good source to use for an academic paper. Thankfully, Destiny is just trying to gain understanding, not write a paper, so it’s totally fine that he’s using it. Either way he’s doing 10x the amount of research I’ve seen anyone else do.
@@TonyCox1351 The people that shit on Wikipedia are the types of people that have heard once that wikipedia is a bad source of info and have no idea how to think for themselves to assess the reliability of a source. The book worship is retarded, since most books undergo NO peer review or review of any kind. Even Wikipedia articles are reviewed on a community (and sometimes scholarly) basis. Also, the goal of published books is to be SOLD, so there can be conflict of interest between writing a book that has good quality information, and a book that will sell well. Books can be good, but if you have a publishing deal and a keyboard you can legitimately write anything so long as people will buy it.
No, it's a megaphone advertisement for vyvanse. All of us were SUCKERS! slaving away in school fighting to pay attention when we could have just popped this quasi limitless pill.
I first saw destiny on Timcast, and wasn't a fan.. the more I have watched on the Israel Palestine topic, the way he forms his opinions based on genuine research and an actual impartial approach to an incredibly volatile topic has made me respect him more than most people with a platform and following of his size.
Yeah just don't watch anything on Trump...he goes full mental derangement when it comes to anything related to the orange man. It's like he just abandons all reason and doesn't do even the most basic research about the propaganda he happily ingests uncritically.
When Destiny's good, he can be real good with his research and ability to reassess his positions, but he has several glaring blind spots where he turns into Rachel Maddow.
You watch tim pool cringe.
@alexangel5029 Tim is super hyperbolic, but I feel like he calls bullshit where he sees it.. but the show timcast is a bit of an echo chamber, and Tim has biases but is usually pretty open about them..
Why is Destiny so much better than Hassan or any other internet politics guy
common mossad w
It’s easy to be intelligent when you actually read facts of the matter instead of adhering to slogans.
@@lukaswithakayand the worst typa slogans too why do we as leftists have shit like “river to the sea” LIKE GUYS COME ON
He doesn't blindly take one side or the other for tribalistic reasons. Not that I can tell anyway.
I love Hasan, when he talks about rich people from his 3 million dollars mansion with his cornstar guests and privileged internet personalities friends, well, i found him adorable and so in touch with disadvantaged classes.
1:10:24 war crimes are easy to say but you need to prove it as well, the fact of the matter is Israel does quite a lot to reduce civilian casualties, it is easy to say they obviously don’t care but you need to look at the other side, this is a push and pull, one wants less civilian casualties other wants more
They keep saying Israel is part of the UN and as such needs to be held to a higher standard..
What about Iran? Are they held to such standard?
UAE / Saudi /Russia / China?
It is fascinating to me that no one assigns any culpability for the civilian deaths in Gaza to Hamas or Iran for their funding of Hamas, or to the Palestinian people and leaders for failing to govern themselves and manage the most radical elements of their populations? Why did Gazans never fight a civil war against Hamas? Where are the Gazan protests against Hamas? You can argue that Hamas has brutally suppressed dissent in Gaza to such an extent where you can't blame Gazans for being cowardly or complicit with Hamas, but I've never even seen proof that Hamas does that, I'm perfectly willing to believe it, but show me the proof.
WTF how is Iran responsible for civilians in Gaza dying for supplying weapons and training to Hamas? That doesn't make any sense. You can say we don't like it if Iran trains and arms the enemies of our allies. But how the fuck does that make Iran responsible for Gaza civilians dying from US bombs being dropped by IDF pilots flying US planes?
@@Prometheus4096 Iran is culpable as any other supporting entity for enabling Hamas to carry out its activities.
@@Prometheus4096idk how you couldn’t draw the line of culpability from point A to point B
Why would they fight hamas and get killed for? To only weaken themselves more than they already weak while facing an Israeli occupation?
The proof is that they threw all their political opposition off buildings after their last election 17 years ago.
People who really think a ground invasion would kill less civilians HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA what they are saying.
I love how the new DGG arc is research and all the ignorant communities they are making tiktoks making fun of us.
"WE CREATED CIVILIZATION" -Mongoloid person
Lil bro forgot about the romans. And the mesopotamian people. And the egyptians. And literally all other civilizations of history that came before the year 1100.
The mongols never had a civilization either. They were nomadic. Meaning that they didn't have any kind of real infrastructure. Which is basically what civilization is. Plopping down a few tents and bringing some goats is not civilization, dude.
And even if that were true... Doesn't mean anything because they couldn't maintain DOMANICE to stay the world's superpower over time. Logically, humans improv on past civilizations. Lil bro and other nations are just up the youngest nation in the world manage to learn from all their mistakes then take over lol.
I'm so sick of streamers talk about "Ground Invasion". Little soy's talking about military strategy is so fucking cringy
I'm sorry but if you're gonna take these debates seriously with a cat avatar you've already lost the debate.
100% It's ridiculous.
cool man you don't like the person that sounds different, great take/ contribution
What a bullshit L take..
Pretty sure he said Cat not douche @@18andcloudy
It was abit jarring at times lol
54:15 thank you destiny for rejecting this analogy and all these dumb analogies. This is what people do, come up with false analogies to make sense of the situation and support their argument. It’s very telling when they can’t just discuss the facts on the ground.
Destiny is the master of using incomparable analogies 😂
@@xMorbidArtxtakes one to know one I guess?
@@jonsimpson6240 takes one to project!
@@xMorbidArtx having watched several of his debates, he definitely isn't projecting. Especially in this one.
How many UN resolutions have been passed against North Korea, or any other horrific country, vs. how many have been passed against Israel?
To be clear. Every structure in gaza is/was a civilian structure. There are different standards under international law regarding military structures & civilian structures. In most cases if a civilian structure is being used for a military function, headquarters, weapons storage, logistics, launch sites etc. The structure then becomes a military object. Theres a duality to this Where some standards say you should make an effort to preserve what part of the structure is not being used for military purposes. But other scenarios where no effort is needed. Israel has always done a better job at this than the US, hands down. Gaza is a uniquely difficult situation, Which is why we're seeing so many civilian casualties. It's not like afghanistan a rural area with a sparse population. Its an urban environment where civilian structures are being used and shared by combatants. Hamas is deliberately operating out of structures that have civilian occupants. They could choose certain structures for their military operations. Enter remove civilian occupants from them, but they dont. Because using human shields is one of their tactics. Worst case scenario, civilians are killed, And it's used to turn public opinion against israel. Best case scenario, Israel issues warnings ahead of time to evacuate certain structures or areas. And hamas has the ability to leave those areas. This is an extremely difficult conflict. Which is why it is so difficult for people to see what is happening and i understand the sympathy. But war with hamas needed to happen. And nobody on the opposition offers any realistic alternative options. And this is why hamas needs to be removed from power. The longer they have control over gaza, The more civilians are going to suffer.
43:41 that is a ridiculous military strategy, ignoring the fact that Hamas is using mostly civilian infrastructure as bases and launch pads, and that they boobytrap every frickin house, and they were prepared for a ground invasion.
Thank you kind woman for this amazing content. keep it up
Everything Israel does to Palestine is disproportionate, because Hamas does not have the same capabilities despite the same intent. Why does Israel or any force with greater power have to respond proportionately? That is insane, it is war not a soccer game.
@@dkoda840 I swear underdogism is a mental illness. Why does Israel need to coddle genocidal people just because they’re also incompetent?
When I thought Vivian couldn't become more annoying
She became a VTuber
its so cringe to listen to destiny talk about ancient history holy fuck its bad. and the american exceptionalism is wild but quid pro quo
not even ancient, just anything before 1900.
when he said "the Romans fell and then turned into Greeks" that was the most ameritard moment thing ive ever heard lmao
@@ThePainkiller9995 i just got to that point and i have to quit the video. holy cringe
Europeans seething so hard, you couldn't even recognize the joke lmaooo. Instantly got upset and went to the comments to complain about it. Classic Brit.
@@ThePainkiller9995 He is so obviously speaking tongue-in-cheek, you'd have to be willfully ignorant to think he's being serious. Europeans absolutely CAN NOT take jokes about themselves.
Vivian shouldn't give opinions on this topic, the lack of logic and understanding behind every argument they made is hilariously bad.
Classic Destiny, arguing any history prior to the 1800s is a fruitless pursuit and 'cringe' and that Romans didn't make any worthwhile recordings (it's not like we have whole Senate speeches, preserved cities, engineering blueprints). Truly the most Nebraska Steve answer to date.
Funnily enough, his misspeak of Rome 'falling' to the Greeks almost lands true, given that the Eastern Roman Empire (culturally Greek, speaking Greek) would last until the Ottoman seige of Constantinople in 1453. But with no live Tiktoks as evidence, such details are lost to time.
Yeah.... The founding fathers? Super based. The style, body, and overall structure of the government they made? Cringe as fuck.....
Ehh historians and journalists had lower standards then than now not really gonna get accurate accounts beyond "there was a battle in X location between Y forces."
How is arguing any history prior to the 1800s not a fruitless pursuit, in the context of Israel Palestine? I’m a big history buff but it’s not going to help us draw borders today
Lets say hamas wins, what then? Do they really think that the new palastine will be "free"? It will probably just belong to hamas then and we would have afghanistan 2.0
According to Hamas apologists, it'll turn back into pre-1947 Palestine where Jews, Muslims, and Christians all lived in harmony and sang Kumbaya by the campfire everynight.
@@Crasson08 Shit. Actually emberassing that I forgot that time period. From the River to the Sea!!!
13:00 Destiny not knowing European history again. The constitution of San Marino dates back to 1600, 7 years before the first English settlers came to North America.
The beginning of the UK constitution was in 1215. It evolved organically from there.
Well Magna Carta isnt really known outside of Europe to be fair but you are correct.
Europeans seething so hard, you couldn't even recognize the joke lol. Instantly got upset and went to the comments to complain about it. Classic Brit.
@@Snack-Sized-Femboy Dont really see a joke there but ok.
@@Snack-Sized-Femboy who's Brit?
@@Snack-Sized-Femboy Is he a brit or is he European?
Definitely Gen Z convo. Loose relationship to history, 500 things are going on . Chat, an open article, they talk over each other. They can’t complete one thought to get to another one. It’s like playing ping pong.
@47:40 The one young woman that went to a concert and was ambushed by Hamas along with all the other hostages taken, the young woman that was recorded dead in the back of a pickup truck, her clothing ripped and torn away, her flesh impaled, her limbs broken and out of socket. We don't require execution videos; people have the ability to understand what happened to this woman. While I don't believe there is an easy answer for this conflict, what has happened demands a response, one that apparently cannot be too demanding and cannot be as brutal as it must have been for this young woman that simply wanted to watch a concert.
The young woman was half naked and in the back of a pickup truck as a trophy, her legs bent in such an unusual way that they had to have been broken and also dislocated from her pelvic bone, what they must have put her through must have been literal hell on earth.
She had impaled marks, her skin having impact wounds, as if she was hung up like cattle for slaughter possibly. There were Palestinians on the streets that came up to the woman's dead body and were spitting upon her dead body, she was on display for the world to see what horrors they had already done to those they've captured, and those people on the streets were not all Hamas they were Palestinians celebrating alongside Hamas, they were there cheering with Hamas, they were happy with what happened to that woman, and I'm quite glad we do not have any video of what tortures she endured before she was murdered.
When I went to Iraq for the Army, our leadership showed us video of what the insurgents had in store for us if we were to surrender, something society does not require to understand how brutal these people have been, alleged "revenge" upon Israel, which has quite clearly gone wrong and which now begs the question, what may Israel do in kind? We were fresh soldiers coming in to replace the companies that were activated prior, and leadership had to show us how real the threat was. A man tied to a chair and presented for the insurgent's message, fear in their eyes and with a machete next to their neck as the insurgent rants and raves.
After they finished with their script, they took that machete and removed the soldier's head, which took quite a bit of effort and to the horror of the American soldier having their head slowly removed. It took many swings, the soldier screaming and thrashing about for their life, blood gurgling along with their cries for help from the asphyxiation happening with the beheading from blood filling their airway and only for the soldier to soon be on the ground with the insurgent still swinging away until finally they presented the camera the soldiers lopped off head. Obviously, the message was quite clear, do not surrender. We are fortunate we did not see any videos like this from Hamas and the concert goers recently!! In fact, if there were execution videos, I'm pretty confident that would have been enough to allow Israel to do as they pleased to Gaza and no conversations like this would be taking place.
Never thought I'd catch Destiny and Vivian in the same call again
The last time I thought about Vivian was the Rittenhouse panel 😂
@@KoopstaKliccawhat is this list in reference to I keep seeing it dk who she is
Again, Lycan’s brainstop prevented him from processing questions.
His attempt to make Destiny look racist was actually repulsive.
@@lukaswithakay listen, it definitely was. but everything he learned confirmed what he already thought was correct. hes down that hole and its hard to get out. we all got trump parents or sumn… and we love em and know they would think otherwise… but theres a “blockage” that keeps them from truly even processing the opposite view :( sux
59:12 which Israelis are been murdered in the West Bank right now … someone should ask destiny for evidence… that’s what he would do if the roles where reversed
The obfiscation from holding Hamas accountable for their portion of the blame is disgusting.
This is a red herring. The only responsibility that matters, IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE MOST POWERFUL SIDE, I.E. ISRAEL. That's how responsibility works, you child.
@Garblegox I'm sorry that you cannot view anything other than seeing things as power dynamics.
@@devonmarr9872 I'm sorry you think this is about style and psychology. As we speak thousands of helpless people are dying. We're paralyzed by analysis. Epistemological babble and semantics, over a literal genocide. You're navel-gazing. Split more hairs, while people die every minute. This is revenge. It's ethnic cleansing. It's a theocratic ethnostate. It's counter to every liberal principle. It's worse than SA apartheid. You are a naive child.
@@devonmarr9872 Btw have you read any Adler, for all this psychobabble about power dynamics? Do you know anything about what you're insinuating?
@@devonmarr9872Power dynamics is kinda how the world works though.
10:30 as someone who is very against Netanyahu, and thinks power corrupts, DO NOT cancel your term limits 😂😂
Lycan on this panel changes his entire demeanor into one that seems a lot more snarky and big headed. His one-on-one debate seemed extremely civil in as good faith as he could be. He sounds so condescending here.
Another thing from Lycard, about 5 two-state solutions have been given to Palestine, all of which have been denied by them. They don’t want their own state next to Israel, they want one instead of Israel.
Uganda is a signatory to ICC, but Israel isn't. That this isn't the end of discussion on moral high ground, is fantastical. Destiny gets concessions on the most insane shit, just because he states it confidently.
All these people, except for Destiny, have insane and wild views on how armed conflict works, the value of the UN/NATO, how insurgencies work, and everything to do with the entire situation.
Man, I wish I could join these panels….. also, for every idiot suggesting,”SeNd inSPecIaL fOrCEs,” should call Marcus Luttrell and ask him how SF vs. large conventional forces, works.
I love how Destiny is finally realizing the conservative critique of how feckless and pointless the UN can be at times and in certain areas. He obviously doesn't think this to the same extent as conservatives, but it frustrates me when ppl on the Left act like they are the end all be all for every single foreign action basically.
The whole world understands power and only power, the reason why the UN doesn’t do shit to countries like russia or the USA is because they know in order to enforce your law you need to be in a military clash with these countries, thus if you are strong you can do whatever the hell you want, while weak countries will have to abide by or otherwise destroyed.
I'm pretty sure the world would be an uglier place if it didn't exist. Obviously important to scrutinize and critique when warranted, though, like with any big org.
The problem is the security council. There needs to be more rotating members, the same 5 countries should not be the sole custodians of world security.
I’m fine with the core countries. But there should be like neutral arbiters that get rotated in that have no skin in the game.
Maybe their neutrality is verified and elected by the general assembly????
I dunno. I’m not that smart.
Destiny absorbing more and more history and getting more and more based.
He’s on another level now. He’s slowly becoming unbeatable.
Fun fact: if you cut every instance of Destiny saying the word “cuck”, this video is only 18m52s long.
if you cut every instance of destiny having a girl name, he wouldn't have a name
@48:00 what is viv going on about? why would hamas want to show videos of executing hostages? they use human shields specifically for a PR manipulation tactic so when isreal is forced to bomb them and there's collateral damage, they can talk about how Israel is killing civilians
The discourse surrounding this conflict has had me pretty depressed seeing so many people defending Hamas, may sound sappy but I am so glad Destiny exists man.
41:00 An army is under no obligation to suffer higher casualties to save civilians of an opposing side. No ariel bombardment would ever be done. Would you say this for WW2? International law means nothing if not enforced. The side that wins get to dictate what rules, laws, etc, are violated (and they rarely incriminate themselves). An army may want to minimize civilian casualties because the consequences that state could face be be detrimental (becoming a pariah, sanctions, other state actors intervening, etc). This boy has no idea how the world really works.
43:12 Where's the obligation on the defenders to minimize their own civilian casualties?
20:39 ffs destiny your just talking about gathering evidence at this point being cringe. I don't see why having to rely on circumstantial evidence makes any argument in favor of making the whole study of history pre 1940 cringe.
It sounds more like you're just, irked(?) By having to know a bunch of content that'd require you to at least have a cursory understanding of the subject, meaning an investment of time, probably on stream; and there in lies the problem.
Ironic too, given his enthusiasm moments prior when he was talking about the history of our founders; I'm sure much of which has been correlated in the same 'cringe' way he's now complaining over.
The Magna Carta absolutely still forms the basis of the UKs constitution.
Its the very very centre for all our laws.
Except for all the parts you literally ignore (the majority)
@@Zach0451 Yes they ignore parts, because updating stuff is stupid.... Just forget about the 27 amendments.
Of coarse it has changed, it was literally still the middle ages when it was made. I bet the constitution in 500 years is going to look a lot more different.
@@chuckles471 Wouldn't be so sure. In over two hundred and thirty years, only one amendment has ever been repealed, and that was to unban alcohol. Good luck getting something serious changed.
Let’s not pretend that for most Palestinian supporters it’s nothing more than “those guys have less melanin so obviously those are the baddies”
It’s good that Vivian decided to stay on call. More lefties should engage in the debate.
Agreed! I don't agree with Vivian and her reputation in my mind evokes frustration but the people making personal digs at her are knuckle draggers more interested in doing drive-by remarks based on pure tribalism instead of listening to the arguments may they be good or bad. The Kick chat is gross as hell too.
@@fregaropa viv is a man.
@@FringeSpectre rope + decolonize
@@fregaropaVivian has consistently proven she has no credibility on virtually any subject she professes to care about. Once you’ve heard her enough, you’re not obligated to put up with it anymore
@@giovalladares1022 Sure, but the default response once you reach the point of "not being obligated to put up with it anymore" beyond refuting what they/she/he/xe/whatever says would be to stop engaging, not making remarks on one's appearance or being preoccupied with what genitalia they have. At the end of the day to an outside observer it says a lot more about the person levying the attacks than the person targeted.
So the State of Palestine has been admitted as an observational state on behalf of all Palestinians since 2012. They represent the Palestinians. There have been no resolutions condemning Palestinian actions in the UN...
Very thankful for Destiny this Thanksgiving 🦃
I’m sorry, but I don’t want to hear war strategies from keyboard warriors, please get someone with Military command experience to say if a ground invasion would be more successful.
Every time that dude said “ICC” my brain said “won’t let me be”.
My brain sang one incorrect bar of Eminem to itself 30 times in 5 minutes.
Just thought y’all should know.
43:09 pretty sure the second invasion of iraq started with bombing and shelling of military AND key civilian structures (like power plants and highways, things that will aid a military effort) in the first night. I think theres footage of it too lol
48:49 what do you mean? Hostages are valuable for Hamas, Of course they don’t want to execute them, but that does not have anything to do with civilian casualties or murderous intent.
I don't agree with Vivian. But this is the most sane I've heard her in a debate.
HeR
Bro... the Magna Carta is from 1215.... its what all western democracies are based on..... significantly more important and FAR older than the US constitution. Cope stream.
13:05 The fact that US constitution is old, is not a good thing.
Why are people so naive to believe that it was possible to invade Gaza without the bombing campaign.
Do you really think than if israel asks 1.2 million Gazans to move south those people would have done it ? Of course not .
What I hate about these debates is the naivety of warfare itself and the moral self-righteousness. You believe a ground campaign is less destructive than airstrikes you have zero understanding of war
Lol viv made fun of tiny’s geography then has the biggest walk back bc he knows his geography
Destiny cannot win.
He didn’t know the location of all 197(or so) countries in the world. So Vivian takes a shot at him for not knowing. Because he decided to stream himself learning them. So now he knows it and they make fun of him for learning.
@@YerpDerp17TLDR: Coping with the fact that now that Destiny knows the history you can’t defend your side
Bruh lycan was in the military? No fucking shot😂 He had to be a fucking POG or something because he doesn’t understand how messy and complex urban combat is,especially against a insurgency situation in Gaza where one moment that same dude who shot at you puts down his rifle and now you can’t engage because of ROE. The IDF for sure could’ve approached the ground incursion differently 100% but bro thinks war is like COD were no civilians die from the good guys unless it’s a cutscene.😭
This entire arc with Israel x Palestine is making him physically ill. My condolences
I don't think the UN didn't impose resolution on Hamas is because they are not a UN member. I could be wrong, but even if they are not a member, Gaza is still Under the UN's jurisdiction, isn't?
The real reason I think is the UN is obsessed with Israel, And there are tons of Muslim countries yet only one Israel and one US. There are tons of terrible things happened in the middle east, most of those places are UN members. Like Iran must have lost count of genocides happened in its own country.yet still half of the resolutions are made against Israel, I wonder why. Actually Israel is the closest on the Actually give a f about the UN for a bit.That's another reason. The bar for Hamas and some other governments have set their bar to low to impose resolutions on.
40:22 Haven’t watched any further but the precautionary principle in IHL does prescribe that “All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life”.
And the IDF does that. They issue evacuation orders. Realistically, there isnt much more you can do in an active warzone.
@@CrestOfArtorias You could argue that the time given to civilians was very short (also backed up by humanitarian organizations) + didn’t Israel recently bomb the south of Gaza, where the IDF told the civilians to move to? NPR for example reported that “artillery fire has hit schools, residential towers and overcrowded United Nations refugee shelters south of the Wadi Gaza wetlands.” I’m not as daft to claim that Israel is conducting a “genocide” in Gaza, but I’m not convinced that all of their strikes have been necessary to achieve their military objectives.
@@alexd4566 One could argue that, but that would be pointless because there is no standard anyone including Israel agreed on.
Is 6 hour not enough? Maybe, I know I would get my ass out of there in 6 hours. Is 12 hours not enough? Possible.
Is 48 hours enough? Again no idea.
The fact that they warn the people alone demonstrates enough willingness to hold back in my book. You will find no army anywhere else in the world going the extra mile to warn civilians of an incoming attack.
And to answer your question: yes they did target sites in the south but they didn't bombard large swathes of the South.
In regards to your position that you are not convinced that all their strikes were necessary: irrelevant, you have no idea what the actual objectives are, nor do you have or will you ever have the IDF intelligence to accurately assess that position.
Feasible is doing all the heavy lifting in that sentence..
Disproportionate response.....didnt Hamas launched 3000 rockets into isreal and now they call isreal response is extreme.
Um yes, absofuckinglutely. Hamas is a rag tag terrorist org, ISRAELI IS A MODERN WESTERN ALLIGNED NUCLEAR POWER.
22:02 Greeks came first, Romans basically just transplanted a shit ton of greek culture and religion into their own because it was all very cool and they wanted it too :D