People who don't play collectathons seem to always think that the collecting is supposed to be where the fun comes from. While collecting trinkets can be satisfying, they really are not what makes these games fun. The actual function of the collectables is to give you a reason to EXPLORE. They're there to faciliate the adventure, and the fun comes from charm and discovery. Not from playing janitor.
@@cloudy772 You could argue that Metroidvanias are just collectathons, I mean in Metroid games you're exploring the areas looking for weapon upgrades to collect.
MCFPapa True but it seems that in these game collectables are scattered everywhere and don’t do much except for unlocking doors,ammo or money Whereas in metroidvanias when you “collect” and item it gives you a new movement ability (double jump,grappling hook,glider.etc)
@@cloudy772 I've heard some argue that Banjo IS somewhat of a metroidvania. Unlocking new abilities to progress to places you couldn't explore before is a staple in Banjo, though not as much of a focus. @Mattew I think it's really telling that most of the best collectathons have a breadcrumb collectable that, far from being valuable, are deliberately placed right in your path. If you know what you're doing, collectables will be used as a means to an end, rather than an end in itself.
I like when the worlds in collectathons change whenever you accomplish a minor or major feat. As an example, the sand kingdom in Mario Odyssey starts with ice blocks, teasing you with not being able to access certain spots. After you explore much of the world to fight the boss, once you do the ice melts, giving you a reason to visit again. Seeing the world change constantly from your actions is once of the greatest feelings a video game can offer, and always makes the next romp around the world a unique time
Maybe it’s not exactly the same but I love the level in banjo kazooie where you could enter in different seasons. It’s amazing to see the same level in different conditions and notice the inhabitants change their behaviour. I used to love that level so much, it hurts
Sunshine did it too. And galaxy did sort of, with 2 or 3 objectives per level sometimes that would either introduce a new area or change the existing one. I guess those games aren’t really as much “collectathons” as mario odyssey is. Sunshine and especially galaxy are probably closer to regular 3d platformer. Whereas odyssey is unquestionably a collectathon with its 999 moons, 1000 regional coins, tens of thousands of regular coins, 8 bit luigis, etc.
Tooie's worlds felt much more connected than Kazooie, considering each level had an exit that lead to another level rather than the overworld. That was one of my favorite things as a kid. It was so cool exploring Jolly Roger's Lagoon, and then you enter the faucet in the main area and hear Grunty's Industries music.
The randomness of Jinjos was really annoying though. They weren't consistent like in Kazooie. I liked the "5 on each level for a jiggy" concept, but instead they added 4 new colors and changed the number of jinjos on each map to be arbitrary so you didn't even know how many you had to look for without hitting the pause menu to check. That's one of the things that I think Kazooie did better. Every world had the same maximums. 10 jiggies, 100 notes, 5 jinjos, and then red/gold feathers, eggs, and mumbo tokens to help along the way. Aside from mumbo tokens though, if you ran out of consumable materials, you could always exit and re-enter the level to respawn them. I also like how you had to get all 100 notes in Kazooie instead of the permanent collection of notes in Tooie. Reason being that Kazooie made it feel much more rewarding to know that you had explored the entire level in one go. If you couldn't find all 100 notes, you knew you'd missed something in that level and nobody wants to miss out on exploring the world so it wasn't a chore to look for the extra note or few that was hiding somewhere. Memory lane story: I remember the first time I played BK, I was like 6 or something, and I had just come out of TTC after a few hours of trying to stay away from that scary shark, and I couldn't figure out how to get back up the ledge because I didn't know I could climb the vine (since the tutorial only showed how to climb trees), so I spent like an hour looking for an alternate exit to somewhere in the CCW jiggy room. Eventually, my dad asked if I'd tried to climb up the vine and I was like ??? but the tutorial didn't say you can climb vines. Serious oversight for the game not saying "btw you can also climb vines and other small round objects" but I guess the challenge was in figuring out what you could/couldn't climb?
@@TaIathar jinjo count is the same in each world, but the jiggies aren’t rewarded for getting all of them from each world, instead you have to get all of a given color(which are randomly distributed per save). The numbers of collectibles are consistent per world(jiggies, jinjos, notes, honeycombs). Mumbo tokens in the first game do not respawn(unless that was changed in later releases). I really disliked having to get 100 notes/jinjos in single visits since levels quickly became tedious when you missed a note or died(especially on the later levels), though I think it would have been excusable if you didn’t need as many notes to open the later music doors
More connnected =/= considering the BACKTRACKING you have to do to establish said world connections. BK1 simply did it better by having the worlds be isolated and not require an ungodly amount of backtracking
I really like Tooie. I disagree with most of the negatives you described; I liked the backtracking component, and I thought there was plenty of significant landmarks, but yeah the note bundling was dumb. I loved platformers for gaining new abilities that helped you get to different areas, and I think Tooie did it best. A Hat in Time should be the benchmark for every upcoming collectathon though.
I find Tooie to be sort of half way between Kazooie and DK64. It has some of the same problems DK64 has, but they're much less significant, and its middle ground works well in its favor, using many of Kazooie's best elements to make its large worlds work, with only a couple of exceptions. If you just want Banjo-Kazooie but bigger and longer, Tooie's there. If you want Tooie but bigger, longer, and slower, you've got DK64, but Tooie I think sort of rides on the edge of too slow, but it's not that bad, and it can still be great especially on your first time through.
@@pumpkinpartysystem I think Tooie's strongest elements are the diverse new moves on top of what you learnt in Kazooie. With the exception of Click Clock Wood, I liked Tooie's world's more than Kazooie. I think where DK64 failed was the method of traversal. The moveset was very limited compared to BK. I didn't like character exclusive collectables either. Too much needless backtracking.
Tooie achieved a level of world-building on the N64 that I still find impressive today. Each area is intricately interwoven with the rest in ways that not only make sense, but are interesting and creative as well. Tooie isn't as accessible as Kazooie, but I love it all the more for the result
Some of my favourites are Banjo-Kazooie, Tooie, Mario Odyseey and more recenty, Spyro. I really liked how Spyro had tight, compact levels that could be completed in 10-15 minutes, and still had multiple braching paths. Every time I saw a new set of gems I went "Oooh, what's over here?" and it was so much fun and easy to naigate and explore.
Jak and Daxter is great because it avoids backtracking except for a single instance. Jak already has his full moveset at the start of the game so the only thing limiting your ability to explore levels is your skill. The game is vibrant and cartoony with unique levels that feel like they actually exist in the world, as in they affect other levels and provide insight to the world and its relationship with the precursors.
Yeah I did really like that I could just go into each level and 100% it right then and there. Felt super satisfying to just move on to the end and have it all
Also, some people may not have cared as much about the collecting aspect. I played it because it looked like a fun game. And once starting it, was interested in seeing the story all the way through.
Banjo Tooie is underrated. The interlocking of the levels was a cool idea, and I liked revisiting areas with new abilities. Dk64 was awesome, but the overuse of repetitive bonus games was its main flaw.
Ambition is a blessing and a curse. Some games want to aim for this gargantuan scale, but they just don't have the interesting content to fill it up. Odyssey did that really well where Yooka Laylee and Tooie stumbled with it. Excellent video as usual dude!
My apologies if you already know this and this information is useless, but from what i have gathered there was originally planned to be much more for Vexx than was was gotten in the end. From hints to multiplayer possibilities with the Dark Vexx stages, to Daggercrag and Dragonsreach at one point having been one big level, the Landspire being a big level itself, a much bigger story... but i guess the developers ran into limitations and/or recognized their ambitions and toned it down, but parts of what they were striving for got sacrificed as a result. I find this a big pity. I have Vexx myself and i haven't gotten farther than The Below, but i would love to see al that potential realized in full. Same with the stuff about the magic healing wells in Legend of Kay, for example, as well as Sphinx (which i sadly didn't enjoy as much as i had hoped) But ESPECIALLY Malice. Poor Malice. And Haven as well. Or at least, for me. The closest thing to a 3D platformer with fulfilled potential and an interesting world would be Mushroom Men: The Spore Wars, although i am about just halfway with that game so i probably should reserve any proper judgement until after i have finished that game.
I'm glad to hear that :) I haven't taken a look at that, though. In fact, it seems like your comment has suddenly disappeared. I don't know how that happened.
To be completely honest, I didn't really find Odyssey interesting. The number of Moons made collecting more of them than necessary feel completely pointless, and the music felt...bland, aside from Wooded Kingdom.
i think that the Katamari franchise is sort of in a grey area cause i can't tell if you can count it as a Collectathon since the series is kind of like a puzzle action-adventure game where your playing as a prince who is only 5cm's tall (that's pretty tiny) and is somehow strong enough to roll around a massive ball that can grow up to like 300 meter's
I think I liked Banjo Tooie more than Kazooie actually for a few reasons. Although the worlds were big and could be confusing, they were all very unique and fun to explore. Witchy World was an such a cool level. And back tracking to some when you finally learned the new move so you could finally get those last few jiggies made me feel like you were really progressing as a character and made the world feel really connected. But most importantly were the side characters. Every level had new unique characters to the world that you met along the way and had to help to get the jiggies. I guess it made the world feel full of life and dynamic? Maybe that is the right word? Like it was not just Jamjar and Mumbo as your only friends in the world, it was all the interesting characters that you met and helped along the way. Though I will say Grunty's Industries was definitely more confusing than it needed to be.
"It feels satisfying to not only collect everything, but to do it quickly and efficiently." Welcome to speedrunning, my friend. I run Banjo-Kazooie, Tooie, and DK64, and they're all immensely satisfying in their own ways.
One thing that really caught my attention is how banjo tooie is made into a colectathon by the simple fact that it's a sequel to Kazooie. I, personally, don't play tooie as a colectathon at all. To me, it's one of the first 3d open world games ever. And it's a damn good one at that! The collectables aren't really about collecting when you think about it. Jinjos are being rescued, jiggies serve as keys, just like in BK. And notes are your upgrade currency! It's not about completing every level, it's about solving the puzzles of doing what you can at a given time! The notes don't guide you in your tour, because you're supposed to be your own guide! Maybe it's just me, but it really feels incredibly reasonable to see colectathons as precursors to open-world. They end up fulfilling different roles when it comes to gaming, but there's a reason why exploring in Breath of the Wild feels so much better than in LoZ or aLttP. And if you look at BK and BT like that, it makes perfect sense that BT wouldn't feel like an amazing colectathon. It's because it decided to do take a different approach that resulted in a different experience!
Tooie is not an open world. In open world you must be free to go everywhere you want since the beginning of the game. Tooie is still first partitioned, and after you unlocking the worlds they re interconnected. It s a semi open world, but really well thoughted from the perspective of connectivity between the worlds and backtracking.
@@brittasnow64 Have you only read my response? Tooie is not open world because you unlock every world one by one. It s still linear, forcing you to things in a certain order. It s semi open world. The same thing as ocarina of time.
I've always found it odd how people hate on tooie for needing power ups for older areas, but praise metroidvanias for doing literally the exact same thing
Gameboo, my thoughts exactly! Super Metroid did it magnificently of course, but some games certainly have failed in such a way that makes backtracking completely monotonous and unnecessary. Banjo Tooie did a good job with it overall.
What frustrated me about this is that oftentimes, I didn't know whether I was doing something wrong or just lacking the ability to progress. I liked the compact, straight-forward style of Kazooie a lot better.
It's complicated but is because the structure of a Metroidvania only looks the same but it isn't, a metroid vania has a largely linear path with multiple branching areas where as a true Collectathon puts you in the centre of a giant circle and lets you decide where and how to traverse it, if Collectathons had the same structure as a Metroidvania, it would feel fluke completing a level of crash bandicoot, but where you have to go up and down that same large path over and over to explore every branching path, this works in 2D because of its perspective, instead of looking like your constantly moving ahead of yourself, any large 2D area gives you new upgrades which give you short cuts, if this were done in a 3D crash bandicoot stage, you would still have the desire to walk through the path you already played because the Collectathon teaches you to explore every nook, a giant scavenger hunt, where as a metroidvania makes you feel like you are getting stronger and progressing, the key of which is harder areas are now easier because it makes you feel like you earned being better, in a Collectathon, that doesn't work because every power up had to be easier to understand and have a low skill ceeling in favor of being more puzzle based
Metroidvanias are basically “upgrade or key collectathons” where all the different paths connect together, Banjo Tooie is like a Collectathon Metroidvania, it’s not perfect but I’d still say it’s a great game
Eh, I still vastly prefer Tooie to Kazooie. I actually *liked* how big those worlds were and the backtracking I thought was really neat because nearly all the worlds were connected to one another and how some tasks done in one world would affect another. In my eyes, Tooie puts a lot more emphasis on exploration with its open world compared to Kazooie's confined playgrounds, and it's for that reason that I would happily pick Banjo-Tooie back up at any time.
I loved the interconnectivity of the worlds. I loved the unique multi-level puzzles that made you use things in one level to solve problems in another. I think it's a superior game to Kazooie. Not to say Kazooie was bad, but Tooie was just better. I also love when sequels don't arbitrarily take away powers from the first game. Nearly everything you could do by the end of Kazooie you could do at the start of Tooie, yet there was still a ton of new moves to learn to improve the bear and bird. But FPS Kazooie was a big mistake...those sections were always my least favorite.
Fun fact: Fungi forest was supposed to be for Banjo Kazooie but got released on dk 64 Imagine what level could have been for dk 64 instead of fungi forest, and how Banjo kazooie would be different
The point at about 6:08, about Banjo placing notes in lines to guide you, is one I've heard a lot, especially in regards to Banjo vs. Yooka. And I have to assume that every single person who makes that point either hasn't actually played Banjo in a decade or is blinded by the fact that they've played Banjo so much that they don't even need to think about where the notes are anymore. Banjo has tons of instances where notes aren't placed in a nice line that guides you along. There are plenty of points where they're placed on all the corners of a platform, or on each individual frond of a palm tree, or at the end of a perilously thin platform that serves no purpose but to hold a note, or slightly out of view in a room with a fixed camera angle, or literally any time you have to collect notes while fighting with the terrible swimming controls. (And not entirely note placement related, but bonus points for the original release, where you had to do it all over again if you died or left the world without collecting all of the notes. Hooray for dangling notes above instadeath traps in Rusty Bucket Bay.) And Yooka has plenty of instances where the quills _do_ form a line to guide you. There are certainly some annoying quills like the one at 6:34, but that's not the norm. Furthermore, due to the increased draw distance possible with modern hardware, a line of quills isn't the only way to guide the player anymore. A single bouncing golden quill placed on a ledge that you can spot from far away can accomplish the exact same thing. I dunno. I just generally disagree with every single time you used Yooka as an example of bad collectathon design in this video. Yooka's controls aren't as fun as Mario Odyssey or A Hat in Time, but he starts out moving quickly and jumping high, and he just gets even faster and able to jump higher as you progress, ultimately culminating in the ability to just straight up fly whenever you feel like it. Compare to Banjo or Jak, who have to constantly Talon Trot or long jump to move at anywhere near a decent speed, have to crouch jump or ledge grab to reach most platforms, and barely upgrade their speed and jumping abilities by the end of the game. And I love Banjo and Jak, but man, I've always thought they felt sluggish even back in the day. And I love Yooka's levels (except the swamp). They have a bunch of landmarks that I was immediately interested in checking out, and the expansion mechanic meant they could be huge but not immediately overwhelming. They seemed to have some sort of Pagie, mini-game, or even just quills in every corner of every map. If it wasn't for Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey coming out in the same year, I'd say Yooka was the first game to properly scratch my exploration itch in a long time. Yooka's got issues, and I admit I'm probably more forgiving of a lot of them because I make games and understand the limitations they had and compromises they had to make due to their budget and time constraints. But pretty much every complaint about the game that compares it unfavorably to Banjo seems to be based on a version of Banjo that doesn't exist. And even with the valid complaints, it absolutely doesn't deserve to be used as the constant "What not to do" counter-example in a video like this.
I agree. I like Yooka Laylee. I played it first, ignoring all reviews. I made my own mind up. The game is good, its definitely not an example of "what not to do". It just needs some improvements here and there. If YL is a bad game then there is no hope left. Also what i've noticed online as well is some people seem to confuse between "not liking a game" and "bad game". If you don't like a game it doesn't mean it's a bad game, it just means it doesn't suit your personal preference in games. Objectively, YL is a functional 3D platformer, featuring music by Grant Kirkhope with over 100 challenges set across five expansive worlds trickled with collectibles and mechanics/moves to unlock. Objectively speaking, I don't think people can easily dismiss YL as a bad game without people like us calling them out.
I'm several years late to the party, but I finally played YL a couple months ago and only started looking into reviews afterward, and you've echoed my thoughts on the "notes as breadcrumbs" argument perfectly. YL had probably around 20 or fewer quills that genuinely felt out of place or trollish, in a game with 1010 quills, and you need probably close to half of the quills to learn all the moves. In BK, there were definitely *at least* 20 out-of-place, trollish notes (I count the 16 notes in the winter section of Click Clock Wood as trollish, and also all the notes on Venus Flytraps in autumn, plus a good number of Rusty Bucket Bay notes, and also the ones in the treasure chests in Treasure Trove Cove), but in BK, you need around 90% of the notes in the game to finish it, and if you die, you have to start over. In addition, seeing Bubblegloop Swamp used as the example of a level with memorable landmarks that keep the player from getting lost seems strange. Bubblegloop Swamp is one of the least structured levels in Banjo-Kazooie. It's essentially a grid with an island in each square, and it has two different central islands that are both less remarkable than the edge islands. The landmarks make each island stand out, but the macro layout is a bit of a random mess, which only feels manageable because the level is so small. If Bubblegloop Swamp were to be expanded to a YL-sized level, it would be a complete maze. It would be like Icymetric Palace in YL, only probably more confusing. Every YL level except Moodymaze Marsh is better-structured with central landmarks than Bubblegloop Swamp.
my favorite collectathon is banjo-tooie i know it's been getting a lot of hate lately but I still revisit it (and kazooie) once a year. most people prefer kazooie but I think tooie has better level design story and writing it's definitely slower than kazooie but if you have a lot of time on your hands I think it can be a great relaxing expierience (but what do I Know my favorite level is grunty industries)
twitch guy What? Whose hating on tooie? I really like both games equally. Banjo Kazooie is the classic and Banjo Tooie is pretty much what’s was missing from the first game IMO and the soundtrack is amazing on both games
I also prefer Tooie to Kazooie - partly because it starts you out where you left off the previous game rather than requiring you to re-earn old abilities. Though next time I replay it, I might make a point of playing some GoldenEye first - the FPS sections are much easier when I remember the maps properly...
Tooie was amazing, I always loved it but haven't played it in a while since my hydrophobia bleeds into games a bit. I always have to play them with someone else. One of my fondest childhood memories is holding the guide when I was a kid and helping my dad beat the game 1100%. the amount of tries we took on Canary Mary in Cloud Cuckooland was ridiculous...until like half an hour in, when he said screw it and grabbed his high-powered back massager and nearly broke the controller. that thing eventually did break a gamecube controller.
I think the reason people tend to dislike Tooie nowadays is going back to it. It's a lot bigger than Kazooie, and with the backtracking, takes longer to complete. Being replayed, a lot of the freshness is taken away from the experience, and it quickly turns into a chore. This is also why most fans have no problems replaying Kazooie. Its a shorter experience that can be completed quickly for a taste of nostalgia without going stale. At least that's why my favourite when I was a kid was Tooie because it was bigger and improved on so much from Kazooie, but nowadays I can't finish a playthrough when I go back to it, while I do enjoy replaying Kazooie when I get the chance.
For me, a good 3D platformer is one that focuses on movement above all else. It's why Spyro 1 is what I still consider to be the best game in the Spyro franchise. The whole focus was using the abilities of a dragon to explore every nook and cranny of the level. No gimmicks, no janky alternate character playstyles or mini-games and no arbitrarily gating when you can collect everything in the level for the sake of artificially extending the game. Your just a dragon on a fun adventure using his abilities to explore every corner of his world. It's why I'm hoping that, with the Reignited Trilogy being successful, if we do get a new Classic game it'll be in a 'back to basics' approach. Just a dragon using his abilities to the fullest to explore new and interesting locations. No mini-games or alternative playstyles that have the possibility of ruining an otherwise fun game. *Glares at Spyro 3*
I've been hoping ever since Crash and Spyro got the remakes that they'd make a true 4th installment in each. With today's technology, it could be so good!
I think you might like Mushroom Men, in that case. Yes, there is of course the combat, but the different kinds of collectables encourage you to explore as they will make combat easier and extend your health and Sporekinesis meter. As a mushroom man you can roll quickly, jump quite high and use your cap to glide (as well as block attacks), and the Thrusting weapons give you a little dash when jumping and attacking in the air that when used rightly, i think could be used quite well for platforming and exploration. There's also the Sticky Hand, which can be thrown on many different surfaces - so not just particular spots- like a big motorbike to then jump off of it pretty high again and get to higher places easier. I'm not sure if you would like that, since there is combat involved (though not to a very big extent) but i thought i would mention it anyway since the environments themselves have great atmospheres to them and are pretty fun to explore.
I love it when Colletathons have giant worlds. After the first playthrough, the world feels so tiny, because you already know most Things and rush trough the worlds. Thats why I love Banjo Tooie so much. Its a master piece of Organisation and I love thinking about the best route and what I should do next. Also, I never had problems with the teleporters, because the are so well placed.
Fun Movement and controlled world design are super important to me. I usually don't finish a collectathon if it's movement is boring, the worlds are too big, it's collectibles are annoying, or the density of collectibles is too low. Yooka Laylee and DK64 sadly fell into this category for me.
If I had to pick, I'd say Mario Sunshine and A Hat in Time are my favorite collectathons. Sunshine has what I'd consider the best movement in the genre, which makes the game fun to play on its own, but it also has a fairly unique setting that feels cohesive. (FLUDD is a brilliant mechanic, too!) A Hat in Time also has great movement, but what makes it stick out to me is the incredible charm and the massive variety of stuff that the game has to offer. Each collectible, world, and main character is unique and memorable, you get different rewards for each collectible, and everything is just oozing with personality!
I think the one area A Hat in Time drops the ball is that yarn collection progress isn't tracked, and there's no way to find more without wandering, so there's no way to know how much you haven't found. Which is a shame, because the fact every single ball of yarn has its own little challenge or fun hiding spot associated with it makes me want to collect them all!
Honestly, I don't think A Hat in Time is that good of a collectathon. It's a good platformer, but not a good collectathon. Its priorities are almost the opposite of a collectathon in that a ton of effort went into its main story missions, but pretty much everything outside of the main story missions feels empty. There are lots of NPCs, but none that need any kind of help that would involve going on a sidequest, doing a minigame, or the like. You just enter a level, are guided to where you need to go for the main story mission you selected, and if you see a glowing object in the distance, you can go collect it. A significant number of those glowing collectibles are just tokens and are largely pointless. It's an incredibly linear game compared to other collectathons, and with less motive or opportunity to go explore and get lost. The green orbs that are used as money are the most common collectible, but they just respawn whenever you re-enter the level, so there's no incentive to try to collect them all. You just collect the ones that are convenient and on your way to where you're going. They occasionally show you which walls to run up, but that's about it. And for all the criticisms I've heard of Yooka-Laylee having confusing level design, I'd say Subcon Forest and Mafia Town are both more confusing in their level design than most of Yooka-Laylee's worlds. Battle of the Birds only escapes being confusing by being linear and highly episodic, and Alpine Skyline escapes being confusing by being a collection of linear levels extending from a single hub that you get warped back to after each time piece.
My favorite series of collect-a-thons will always be Spyro, with Spyro 3 being my favorite of those. Everything in that game is just so satisfying to collect due to a mix of the excellent sound design, sprawling but still somewhat linear levels, and interesting world building. That guy Jim Sterling did a video on it saying that it was the first collect-a-thon he’d ever played that he actually wanted to get 100% on. Now I’ve never played the Banjo Kazooie games, but I do hear really good things.
I know DK64 isn't perfect but something about it makes it my favorite collectathon. I think for all it's flaws it actually gets quite a few things right.
ImmaLittlePip He has no style, he has no grace Th-this Kong has a funny face He can handstand when he needs to And stretch his arms out, just for you Inflate himself just like a balloon This crazy Kong just digs this tune!
Good music, interesting levels, packed with collectibles, cool moves and mechanics to learn, can play as five different kongs... what's not to like? The complaints about the game being tedious is all bs, back in the day you didn't have a lot of good and big games coming out like today. So whatever you bought, you'd hope you can play for a long time. Plus, i never had a problem with backtracking. If you truly like a game you're playing, backtracking really just tests your memory in each world, making the worlds more memorable in the long term. Most importantly, i just think the devs didnt want you spending too long in each world that it becomes boring, since there are a lot of collectibles. This is where backtracking really allows the player to explore new worlds and go back and forth between worlds so the player doesn't get bored. Edit: Also revisiting previous worlds allows the player to feel a sense of progression since the enemies are now easier due to the extra health gained and new moves acquired.
Banjo Tooie is one of my favorite games ever. I love the movement and the boss fights. Also the music really makes the areas become alive. In addition to the upgrades, and I actually like that you go back to previous areas. Makes the game feel dynamic.
EXACTLY, no idea why this guy considers backtracking a bad thing. What if I really liked Witchyworld and wanted to go back? Well the game gives me a reason to later! Several of the levels in Banjo Tooie are some of my favourite and what I feel are the most memorable in a platform game.
I really love Super Mario Sunshine and loved collecting all of the Shines, but I was a little disappointed when I found out that the only thing that opens up the final level is beating Episode 7 in every level, making all other Shines meaningless unless you’re going for 100%. Still my favorite Mario game, though.
I think there's another item that could be tacked onto the "layout" idea. Yes items can do things like outline the paths that people can take, but often times the more beloved levels will have some place that gives players either a general scope of the level, or act as a level-wide reference point. This often comes in the form of a tall object towards the center of the map, and even when you're not on top of that object itself players can still understand where they are by looking at it and understanding where they are relative to it. In Banjo we have Spiral Mountain, Mumbo's Mountain, Treasure Trove Cove's arch mountain, Clanker, Feezeezy's Snowman, and so on. You know that if the level-long slope in Mumbo's Mountain is to your right that you're heading away from the world exit, and toward it if the slope is on your left. Ticker's Tower, the unwalkable cliffside, and the pond segment the level in half the other way, giving the player lots of ways to orient themselves on their very first level outside the tutorial area. Even the things like Click Clock Wood that are too tall to see much of the level from can be used as reference by looking for specific object like "Is this the side where Mumbo is at the bottom, or the one with the eagle nest?" The sequel does this too with levels like Mayahem Temple and Witchyworld, but can't do it as much because of all the segmentation. Donkey Kong 64 falls short here because of its love for hallways that all look identical, keeping tall objects only ever as set pieces rather than reference points.
One interesting collecthon that time my mind is the Gex series. Specifically, the second and third game. I only played the second game on the N64 so I can only speak for the level design of that game. In the second game (Gex: Enter the Gecko), the levels are linear but you have many ways of exploring the level. As for the movement, it's nice, quick, and smooth for the most part. (Except the Titanic level.) The collectibles (the remotes) each have their own functions too. The main collectibles will open up new areas and the boss levels when enough are collected. And the hidden collectibles (found somewhere in the level or by collecting several mini-collectibles) unlock bonus levels for a good challenge. The only gripe I have with the game is that some of the mid to later levels can be confusing to navigate, especially when getting to getting all the hidden collectibles, but it's easy to see where you've been before and continue on the right path.
I agree with many of your points. I think giving the player choice in how they play makes for excellent design. Starting off a bit linear to allow the player to grab how the controls work and understand the world is excellent. After the first world, branch out allowing the player to choose where to go, while at the same time keeping the small linearity . In Banjo-Kazooie, after beating Mumbo's Mountain, you have Treasure Trove Cove. Once you grab the Shock Jump ability, you can move onto Clanker's Cavern. Part-way through you can go to Bubblegoop Swamp, and then part-way through you can go to Freezeasy Peak. It slowly increments this way until the final level of Click Clock Wood (Which is by the entrance of Treasure Trove Cove). I think that Click Clock Wood while I found the placement of the puzzle to the entrance a bit annoying, created motivation for pressing forward to figure out where it was. Smaller worlds are more manageable, as much as I love Tooie and DK64, this was one thing that didn't age well, especially as an adult now. One thing I rarely see mentioned is music. The way the score has been composed to play the same song, but changes slightly if you're underwater, progressing to the many worlds throughout the lair, different seasons, or inside buildings was something that added to the atmosphere of the game, and Nier Automata did what Banjo-Kazooie did, but did 8-Bit renditions of each song when you did the hacking mini-game. This type of effort for a score is fantastic, and I wish that more games would utilize this. If a game designer ops for multiple characters, you should't be limited to picking up collectibles, and should have the option of switching out (unless each character has a separate story, like Sonic Adventure). Though not used for platformers, episodic games seem to do well on their own. Imagine defeating the main campaign, defeating the final boss, craving more adventure, then being left on a satisfying cliffhanger like at the end of Banjo-Tooie. Had this been the time when episodics like Penny Arcade, Life is Strange, The Walking Dead, or any other TellTales game were at the level they are now, Stop 'n Swap and games utilizing the 64DD would have probably worked much better, with your progress and stats saved and being able to continue into your next adventure. Taking this to a further step, creating levels that aren't static. Do something in a level, complete it and move on, then come back and see the level has changed with more to complete, changing your level completion percentage. So long as the story actually takes you back and you can explore a new area or two within the level, this shouldn't break immersion. A few things I can think of. There are bound to be more, but it has me craving adventure now!
I think the notes were clustered in Tooie specifically because of the larger worlds. They aren't as easy to miss as normal notes, so there won't be "that one flippin' note" in a gigantic world. Also I really liked that you had to/got to revisit areas in tooie. It made the entire world feel more dynamic and made the areas feel more connected. It also always made sense to me, since it feels a little too convenient that everything is ordered correctly just for you, whilst like this it feels like the world is a thing separate from the path you're taking through it!
Amazing video! You made some really amazing points! I'd say my favorite from games you didn't mention would have to be chibi robo. It's a huge game, and you are so small, but chibi robo gets it right. Even though the whole map is huge it takes something that's familiar to everyone already. It's a house, it's easy to know where you are, and there are tasks, collectables, and interesting npc's everywhere you go. That was a masterpiece of a collectathon!
You didn't mention *why* Banjo Kazooie had such a high minimum requirement to beat it. It's just over the limit to FORCE you to enter every level, even if just for 10 notes and 4 jiggies. They probably wanted you to visit every level so that the Quiz Show didn't ask you things about levels you didn't visit, or enable a casual player to accidentally miss a bottles ability and not understand how to kill Grunty. It's almost like the devs dug themselves into a bit of a corner with this situation.
Great video! I love the detailed analysis of different aspects of level design and mechanics, with specific examples and justification for all your lines of thought. I especially love how you drew the relation between movement ability and size of the world, that's some really neat stuff!
I don't think this really counts as a collectathon, but yesterday i started playing Mushroom Men: The Spore Wars for the Wii... and exploring is one of my favourite things in that game! The explanation for this will get a little long, though, so grab your fuzzy spore-infected popcorn and take your time. So in Mushroom Men, you explore some American country state (possibly called Taxes, judging by a of the sign plate found in the second level) from a VERY small perspective- around 3 inches. The game has a level-based structure and the only collectables found are level-specific things like Useless Yellow Shiny Rocks and Possum teeth for example, which is only interesting for those that are interested in seeing bonus art. But the collectables that you really want to watch out for are meteorite chunks and pieces of scav. Meteorite chunks, after having collected enough of them, increases your Sporekinesis power as well as the amount of Sporekinesis power you can carry and your health, and the pieces of scav are needed to build better weapons. There are four different weapon types: Bashing, Slashing, Thrusting and Radical, each with their own pros and cons. Bashing is good for straight-up more simple fights, Slashing is good for when you get swarmed because you can spin around with those weapons, Thrusting has a kind of automatic lock-on to easily take care of flying enemies and Radical weapons are the most powerful and take care of enemies the quickest, but require ammunition (like batteries or small gas canisters) and are heavy, taking away your ability to roll as long as it is equipped. Each new weapon of any type you make is stronger than the last, and because they are divided in different pieces and different types there's more stuff to find if you want to get a new, stronger weapon, to make battles easier and have a more easy time. Mushroom Men definitely isn't a perfect game. The camera can have a case of "The Clunk" from time to time, but it's not horrible. Jumps feel kind of odd compared to most platformers i have played and the combat sometimes (though for me, honestly very few times as i enjoy the combat enough) can get a bit tedious, but it's the aestethic and atmosphere that i find absolutely great. From exploring the tiny nooks and crannies of shacks and houses, like sneaking into the side of a freezer to find the last piece of the Out-of-Bounds-Flamethrower to melt the ice in which another mushroom man is encased and finding ways to easily kill mutated rabbits, to the mushroom structures and contraptions themselves like the mines with the carts made out of cans and pencils tied together for bridges and support beams and the toilet where you have to make your way up by unclogging steam vents to float up in a balloon made from a sardines can, an electric motor with a makeshift propellor and the balloon itself being a helium-filled animal swimming floatie for kids (or whatever those things are called) whilst listening to some of the oddest but most interesting soundtrack to a 3D platformer i've ever heard. I find it really charming and an interesting aestethic that i haven't seen too much but would love to see return. I personally call this aestethic "Junkpunk" or "Mini Junkpunk" If you don't mind me asking, what do you think of it based on what you are hearing of it? I don't think many have heard of Mushroom Men (which i personally think is a crying shame) but i'm interested in knowing possible bad sides of this that i haven't noticed before (if there even are any) and i would love to see this underrated and very short-lived franchise rise up again from its underground spores, so to say.
My apologies, i was confused with another thread i was replying to. It's cool that you like De Blob, and i may be interested in playing it some time in the future. But for me personally, Mushroom Men is one of my favourites. Gameplay may be a bit simpler to say, the big guys like Mario (i've never played a Mario game myself, though) but i don't mind at all and am taking my time with the game, because i'm enjoying it so much :)
My favorite collectathon is Jak and daxter and it was the world, characters and variety of things I could do that drew me in. Each new area looking 100 percent unique and seeing the chaos grow as you moved along. Sure it don't got the best collectibles but still I felt like it was the overall adventure and personality that brought it home. I even 100 percent it twice.
Someone may have pointed it out, but banjo kazooie had you collect 810 notes so that you had to visit each world at least once in order to beat the game. The developers likely didnt want anyone to maybe miss out on a world they may have found interesting.
Banjo-Tooie is actually my favorite collectathon of all time BECAUSE of the large worlds, interconnectedness, and backtracking. I think it actually succeeds at the scale where DK64 and Yooka-Laylee fail because instead of being a bunch of stand alone stages, each stage is just a separate piece of one single massive world. Finding shortcuts between the various levels is always exciting because they're often unexpected yet completely logical. Plus it allows for previous ideas to be expanded on that in Kazooie would've been necessarily relegated to a single level - such as Mayan Kickball vs Colosseum Kickball. The train was also a nice touch, as were the warp pads, making every world fairly easy to navigate in spite of their size. I also appreciate the Metroidvania style "That looks like I should be able to reach it... I wonder what ability I'll unlock to get me there" stuff that really adds to the sense of progression and exploration. Finally, and here's the key difference between Tooie and DK64 or Y-L (or even Odyssey): despite the size of the levels they still always had central hubs that were easy to navigate around (aside from maybe Glitter Gulch Mine and Jolly Roger's Lagoon), and - and this is key - the Jiggies didn't rely on tedius, repetitive, or luck-based tasks. DK 64 and Y-L both lock a number of their collectibles behind insanely frustrating/badly controlled minigames and occasionally even repeat them. The bonus barrels, ring challenges, races, arcade games, and minecarts are all generally frustrating buggy messes that feel like filler and stop the game in its tracks. Tooie has minigames, but all of them are either fun, interesting, or over so quickly that you can't really complain, even if they largely amount to "kill a bunch of blue/green/red things before time runs out;" meanwhile, Beaver Bother can go fuck itself, and DK64 was so stretched for ideas that you play that stupid minigame like 10 times throughout, two of which occur in the same level (Creepy Castle as both Chunky and Lanky).
my favourite collectable games are the lego games. theres so many things to collects, and one of those is characters, but since characters have different abilities the more of them you collect the more of the other collectables you can get. and you get rewarded with gold bricks for getting these collectables, and those earn you further collectables (minikits) as well as bonus stages. I like it because earning collectables leads to more collectables and it makes it feel like everything has a purpose
I on the other hand enjoy the bigger worlds in BT and DK64, I like that you spend a great amount of time in each 'world' made it feel more than a level but a new land to explore nook and cranny...of course i think they were designed so you could grab what you wanted and move on or if you're in it completion, then getting lost and really committing landmarks to memory I enjoyed immensely, in a way it was more satisfying conquering the mountain instead of walking over the hill.
All of these games, along with Zelda and Dark Souls, are actually in the Adventure genre with games like Monkey Island and Thy Dungeonman. Change my mind. 10: Explore the area until you find an item. 20: Explore the area for where to use the item. 30: If you unlock a new area, go to 10. If you unlock a new item, go to 20.
Open-world games are this generation's 3D platformers. Think about it, much like 3D platformers once were, open-world games are now everywhere and they're stuffed with collectibles too! Just... they're not as charming, they're too big for their own justifiable good, and grabbing a Jiggy in Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie is still a lot more fun than grabbing some boring document in Rise of the Tomb Raider.
I honestly feel like Insomniac's Spider-man is a better collectathon than a majority of the games that actually try to be collectathons nowadays. Sure, the collectables aren't necessary to progress through the game, but they're heavily encouraged and so plentuful that it's impossible not to swing right by a few, meaning that you can just follow a trail of breadcrumbs between major missions; grab a backpack here, snap a photo of a landmark there, take a small detour to do a combat challenge or play a minigame with a research lab, etc. They're consistently different enough that you never feel like you're doing the same task over and over, but instead feel like you're juggling a handful of different types of tasks in whatever order you like inbetween the big set-piece stuff. Honestly a lot of open world games do benefit from having collectathon-style elements mixed in, as both types of games are meant to be about exploring and discovering every nook and cranny of the world you're in. Horizon: Zero Dawn, Breath of the Wild, and again Spider-man are all great examples of the two subgenres blending to great effect.
Kinda true, but I still feel like games like Just Cause 2 and 3 manage to give enough variety and challenge to stay interesting even if frustrating sometimes and they have so many clear objectives to do and delimited by zones that I see them as collectathons.
I would love a 2nd part of this video but talking about the movesets, and as consequence, the character design. What the character can do and why is something worth of talk about, like the reason of the existence of Kazooie is for give a reason why banjo can double jump and then how her inclusion opened to a lot of new moves.
I feel like 100% rewards and what makes 100%-ing a game fun could be its own video. When I think back on games like the DKC series or Yoshi's Island attempting to 100% them was like an entire boat load of new content compared to playing the game through casually and in the case of Yoshi's Island completely transformed how I played the game: From easy little romp to an often pretty difficult perfectionist run through each level. It's like night and day and I'm curious to see what other games are affected that much by a 100% goal.
Here's a good collectathon example to recommend for you to play and others, Psychonauts. The game has a few collectibles scattered about. The game has a level up system where the more you collect various collectibles. And you can manage to unlock optional new moves at certain ranks and also increase the various aspects of the main character's psychic abilities. There are also brains you need to collect at one point and bringing them back to this one NPC you can get a health extension for each one. And also the levels themselves are great with the main setting in the "real world" being a camp for gifted psychics and an asylum to the minds of several characters and those levels reflect the minds. There are also vaults in those minds which gives backstory slideshows for them.
Personally, I liked the way notes were handled in Banjo-Tooie. In Banjo-Kazooie, it was such a pain to have to get all 100 notes ON A SINGLE PLAYTHROUGH. To top that off, not all the notes acted as pathways around the level. No, instead there was a handful of notes hidden away, in opposite corners of the level, and again, you have to get all of them on one playthrough. I thought Banjo-Tooie actually made it a lot easier by bundling the notes together AND actually saving the ones you collect without needing to grab all of them at once. Though, I will concede that the excessive backtracking was something that brings Tooie down a bit.
That is totally fair, and definitely the worst aspect of the original, luckily they fixed it in the XBLA port and keep your notes when you leave/die :)
One thing I noticed, doing level analysis for Spyro and Jak (which I'm going to write up one of these days in a way that is actually fit for outside eyes) is how linear they are. The levels have a pretty clear and easily navigable critical path, Spyro more so than Jak, but even Jak is very much a "corridor platformer". The exploration aspects of them come more from the way that side paths branch off of each other and the way paths loop around, and sometimes a path will branch, giving player's two ways to reach a critical location, and the shortcuts that can be taken between routes and (secondarily) nooks and crannies hidden along them. In Spyro especially, the general level design is kind of oddly reminiscent of a racing game track, of all things. Actually, even Mario Odyssey can be amazingly linear on its critical paths. Take a look at the "story missions" of Tostarena sometime, again, or even better the ones in Seaside Kingdom. Those are very big open worlds, but the level geometry and design push the player into taking a very specific route through the level if they just take the path of least resistance and don't decide to go wandering off on their own. The main difference between those two worlds of course is that Tosterena requires the player to eventually get back onto the critical path to beat it, while Seaside Kingdom can be beaten in any order, it's just a bit less efficient if the player decides to set off on their own. The advantage of this sort of "subtle critical path", as I call it, is that it gives players the impression of exploring on their own (and in more sophisticated setups, the actual ability to do so too), while minimizing the risk of player's getting lost or bored. I'm also going to note that one thing that Mario Odyssey has that Yooka-Laylee does not is density, both structurally and mechanically. While spaces are large, there's less dead space between points of interest in Odyssey than in Y-L, and there's also a greater amount of mechanical variety. Between all the various possessions (usually at least one new one per world, each wildly different in control scheme and even genre), the hat's use in combat and platforming, the repeated scattered puzzle mechanics like leading the dog or looking for environmental clues found in pictures, and just general platforming mechanics like spin flowers or launch poles or enemies, it's amazing that the game feels as cohesive as it does. It annoys me that "more variety" is such a big factor (I feel that a game is strongest when it focuses on a single, deep mechanic), but it's hard to argue with the results. As far as my favorite collectathon-adjacent goes, it would be Sly 2, which has a few collectibles to encourage exploration and speedy navigation, but is mostly mission based. The thing I like about Sly 2's levels is that they are tight and easily navigable while feeling much larger than they actually are. Part of this is due to good use of landmarks and "biomes" (as I call landmarks that are based less off of a single distinct element and more a distinctive art style or set of features), part of it I feel is due to the verticality of the levels, which throw tightropes and arches seemingly willy-nilly over the ground terrain, itself of varied heights. And part, I feel, is an attention to detail that makes the levels feel believable as lived-in spaces, even at their practically scale model size (the creepy castle looms over a tiny village, there are outhouses on the outskirts of the lumber yard, etc.). Incidentally, when I (attempted) to do an analysis of Yooka-Laylee, I didn't actually find _that_ many problems with it. On paper it looked like the level design it hit all the marks, at least to my eye. The problems I did find with it though were doozies. In ascending order of importance to my mind: 1) Lack of polish, which robbed many interactions and mechanics (especially the retro mini games) of entertainment, 2) Unclear, inconsistent or unexciting power-ups, which tended to be blatantly nothing more than keys to a locked door, or to not solve problems or have interactions that might logically feel they should, and 3) A lack of meaning to the worlds, beyond being video game levels, nothing ever felt like it existed in a coherent world or for any reason other than to be content, which robbed it of emotional investment. Anyway, I've rambled enough. Thanks for the video, they're always a treat.
The tons of stuff to collect is great, it's just the fact that you constantly have to go back and forth with the tag barrel that makes it so tedious. I think if the game got a remake that was the complete reverse of Super Mario 64 DS, by simply making Donkey Kong the ONLY playable character (or at least allow all collectables to potentially be collected by anyone), I think people would love that a lot more.
@@Lugbzurg Or unifying the collectables in "one color" (and also making the golden bananas collectable by any kong if they are open in the map) and creating a mechanism to switch between the kongs without going all the way back to tag barrel.
I loved Spyro 2 and 3 as a kid, and Jack and Daxter was the first game I ever finished. But one of the best collecithons is Mario Odyssey. Not only was it packed with moons and side-quests, but the general variety in movement options made the game fun in terms of both collecting everything, as well trying to do everything as quickly and efficiently as possible. I don't speedrun games, but if I started doing so, it would be with Mario Odyssey.
One of my favourite collectathons is "rocket: robot on wheels" for the N64. Like the title implies, you play as a robot with a wheel instead of legs. One thing that made the game interesting was that the game had no breathing meter because you're playing as a robot, so the watery levels did not play like the ones in other games. However, the protagonist cannot swim, only roll around on the bottom of the water, so some levels used water as an obstacle. The protagonist also doesn't have any arms or hands, instead he has a tractor beam attached to his head. This makes lifting and throwing barrels feel unique. Lastly, the levels in the game had very unique themes, like for example one level is named "food fright" which is a food themed level on the top half, but a cartoonish horror themed level on the bottom half, including an area containing a lake of acid shaped like a stomach. The movement options were very unique as well, as they included these nifty vehicles like a hotdog car and a flying carpet. The collectibles were tickets and tokens to fit the amusement park theme.
This video is overall very good, you have an interesting perspective on the genre. But my favorite has to be Jak and Daxter. Here are my reasons -You don't need to back track to get all of the moves you need to advance. - The levels felt unique and different from one another. - each collectables are connected instead of being used as completely different purposes. - the world overall felt very interesting and it makes me want to explore. - lovable characters - doesn't feel like a chore to complete.
thank you for this, i have been trying to find a way to summarize what i like about these games because i wanted to take a shot at making an old school 3d platformer
Overall this video was pretty good but I have to disagree that having a lot of collectibles littered everywhere. Sure there might have been items everywhere but many of the moons in Odyssey felt tedious and frankly not super interesting. In fact, many of the moons didn’t test the player’s ability to platform, which is a huge misstep for Mario, the face of platforming. In the end I felt like a bunch of the moons in Odyssey could have been cut from the game without any loss of meaningful play. In BOTW the Koroks work because they are a low level collectible. Imagine getting a spirit orb instead of a Korok. It would make the dungeons feel a bit pointless in my opinion, but maybe that’s just me.
I think it all stems back to people expecting that moons are supposed to be this super valuable, challenging collectible. But that clearly wasn't their goal from the beginning, some are and some aren't. And that's not bad...it's just different from 64/Sunshine/Galaxy's. As I said in the video, I think the main reason for this shift was so that people could find a TON of them and breeze through the levels if they wanted too easily, but also find some good challenge if they're searching for it (they wanted it to be super accessible for kids but also fun for adults too, something Mario has always been good at)
@@snomangaming The problem with that explanation is that it's the *main* collectable in the game. I'm actually with chariot rider on this one. Moons just lying out there in the open make them feel super cheap and its kinda bad when over 20 years of 3d mario platformers have built up an expectation that moons/stars are a reward for platforming challenges .
What adds to this problem with moons is that a lot of the WAYS in which you collect them stay the same throughout each level which tones down how unique these individual worlds are, which in turn takes away the sense of wonder that you'd get from a game about exploring. Imagine if every country around the world had the exact same culture despite their radically different histories, that's what this feels like, a disconnect between the game play of collecting moons and the worlds that the game is trying to set up. It feels disingenuous
@@snomangaming One thing I was hoping you'd address in the video is scaling the value/frequency of any given collectable against the ease of access to said collectable. Moons in SMO are a great example of this being done poorly if you ask me; If I get the same reward for ground-pounding a glowing spot I just kinda... found sitting in the open as I do for actually completing an interesting platforming challenge that tests my skill, then the former robs the latter of that sense of satisfaction around which collectathons are built. Beating bosses, the climaxes to each world that can take upwards of 5 minutes all on their own, should be a big accomplishment, and yet for beating one you get... drumroll please... 3 whole moons at once... *confetti popper* wheeeee... You get as much of a reward from sitting in the castle and talking to Toadette for *literal minutes on end* doing nothing but mashing through menus as you do from scouring any of the other kingdoms for every last secret. I don't think that they should have removed *any* of these collectibles, mind you. Rather, I think they should have taken a large percentage of them and turned them into a secondary collectible, one that can be used to unlock other things, but aren't the same as the big rewards that you collect to progress through a kingdom and unlock the next.
My favorite collectathons are DK64, Mario Odyssey, and Banjo-Kazooie. I think I love DK64 while others loathe it because I love the areas to explore and don’t mind backtracking as much. As others. DK64 areas with their great music, interesting areas, and fun challenges all around kept me playing. Definitely better than Banjo-Tooie. Although, the bonus barrels are fun the first time and playing them again are a chore. I am scarred from Beaver Bother in Creepy Castle.
Ive always felt DK64s weirdly dark charm with incredible music to it atmosphere and its personally addicting gameplay always made me not really mind or complain about the backtracking, but if a remake was ever made, they definetly should allow to switch kongs on the fly, as well as change alotta the mini games.
i disagree with your notion that J&D progression was worse for having all collectibles focus in on the main collectible. while giving each collectible a unique purpose makes collecting everything more consistently exciting. making all items relay back into a single kind of progression gate, takes the pressure off of having to collect each individual kind of collectible, stuff like the Rare and DK coins would be a lot less offensive if you could circumnavigate them by simply collecting a few extra Golden Bananas. If someone doesn't like collecting scout flies, or has a difficult time with most of the challenges in a given world, like Precurrsor Basin perhaps, they can overcome that by simply trading in orbs in the hub towns. the result being a more laid-back experience than say Banjo with it's Note Scores, potentially requiring you to repeatedly try levels over again, even when you're done with them.
@@LoaThunder I think it's very flawed but somewhat enjoyable. I really liked the casino level, everything else ranges from pleasant to very frustrating with most of it just feeling a bit vacant.
@@LoaThunder It has its moments, but it also has some serious frustrations - the Retro's Arcade games really needed some playtesting, and for the controls to be tightened up. Tying fast movement to the stamina bar rather than letting players Reptile Roll indefinitely is a step backward from the Talon Trot. By the time I got to Capital B and lost a couple of times, I'd already had enough frustration with the game that I just walked away and have never been tempted to come back.
I really liked it but it has a lot of paywalls near at the end of the game, which is kinda frustrating. Banjo Kazooie has a quite high amount of collectables required to finish, but it is clear what is needed to go through, on Spongebob, the later levels always surprise you requiring a lot of shiny things (money) to enter requiring backtrack. Still it is a fun game and I played last month. Backtrack I dont find bad as many people point out if is used to discover new things (being like metroidvanias or not), but on Spongebob, you have to backtrack just to gather money to enter the later sections and this is annoying.
@@duckstroyer626The problem is not exactly having to traverse through the same path again because as you mentioned, it is very easy to jump acros levels, you can press start and immediately teleport to what you want to go. Problem is that the process of farming money is very annoying, you have to find the best way to gain money and repeat again and again until another paywall appears and you have to do the same over and over.
I feel you are generalizing your negative feelings towards DK64 a bit too much. It was flawed, but it was still an excellent Rare game through and through.
Metrooiid Play both banjo kazooie games, man, they are great! And pay close attention to the soundtrack because it’s really good. I feel like the soundtrack is really underrated when people talk about the game itself
Also, my favorite game of all time is jak and daxter, I love how smooth and efficiently you can complete the levels. The movement is so slick, the collectables are so well placed, the music is so enthralling, the story is simple yet satisfying and the lines are so quoteable. I’ll never forget the opening speech, it’s easily my favorite line in all of video gaming
I honestly really like DK64; i'm not really too bothered by having to switch kongs. There are a few instances in the game that were a bit tedious and obnoxious because of that and some other things, but for the most part I don't get people's problems with it. I haven't finished many collectathons, having only finished Banjo-Kazooie, Mario Odyssey, and DK64, and only having played Banjo-Tooie outside of that, but I really enjoyed each lf them and I'm always excited to try more of them out. It's probably my favorite genre, all things considered.
I like an element of backtracking in my collect-a-thons. If I can just enter a level, collect everything, and leave, never to return, it feels almost like that level is wasted. I know other people feel differently, but there are ways to do it that are better than others. For instance, if the backtracking is not just a checklist of "go everywhere again," but you have to go back in a different order and a different number of times for each level. Perhaps for story reasons.
"Each location feels like a ride at an amusement park". Oh, hell yes! I couldn't have said it better myself, Banjo-Kazooie was (and still is) one of the best games ever made. Because of its smooth animations and colorful graphics, it was the first game (from N64 and PSX era) that made me forget that every game back then had its base on ugly polygons. Most 3D platformers back then just felt... so empty, like ghost towns, but not Banjo-Kazooie, oh no! This one had animations everywhere, random objects like buckets, chests or even toilets with eyes, movement, even talking ffs! even the power ups were animated and talking sometimes. Everything, absolutely everything in the game had its own personality, I've never seen any other game since then that pays this much attention to details and I guess I never will. For me, the true masterpiece for the N64.
I know it isn't a collectathon in most people's eyes, but I think Ratchet & Clank Future gets so many things right. Each thing you collect has a different yet equally relevant use (Bolts let you buy weapons, Raritanium lets you upgrade your weapons, Zoni let you upgrade your ship, etc.). Also, the Insomniac Museum is a completionist's dream!
I normally don't enjoy this type of game as I don't want to feel like I have to collect items to get through the game. But I actually enjoyed doing it in Ratchet and Clank.
I loved Banjo-Tooie. I thought the fact that the Jiggies were so difficult to collect made it that much more satisfying to collect each one. Also, the minimum number to complete the game was just 70 out of 90, so you didn't have to get the toughest ones. Unlike in Banjo-Kazooie, Rare made sure that everything you accomplished toward an objective remained complete when you exited a world or reset the game.
I feel like your comment about how only certain Kongs can take certain items is a detriment. Earlier you explain how the items being spread around the level can help people figure out if they've been there before. Since the different Kongs can do different things, isn't it important that there are multiple types of collectibles to grab so you can tell which Kongs have or haven't been there? All together I think DK64 could have done that better, by putting collectibles ONLY in places where the specific Kongs were going to actually use their particular skills. Like why put Tiny Kong's bananas or coins near Chunky/Lanky Kong things, but I liked that they had a way to check your progress on each character like that.
Yeah I agree with that, they did too much of putting all the other colors in the same places. I've already talked DK64 to death in my video on it so I didn't want to tread too much of the same ground :)
They probably could have improved on what they already had by implementing "generic" collectibles (bananas and stuff) that could be picked up by any Kong. Only the areas that demanded the skills of a specific Kong would use the collectibles for that Kong. Thus, less backtracking, and an easier way to signal which Kong you would need in a new area. It's actually probably a good thing that they didn't make _all_ the collectibles generic. Otherwise, you'd explore a place, find out you need a different Kong, and then forget to come back because you'd already collected all the bananas leading that direction. But making all the collectibles Kong-specific might not have been the best approach, either.
I think Odyssey and Hat in Time really mastered each of their respective take on collectahons. While Odyssey is big and has loads of collectables, they have a good reason to be collected (like progressing with moons, getting outfits with purple coins, other outfits with normal coins and even additional health for normal coins), and the mixup with the capturing of enemies means the games doesn't get stale and boring even if you shoot for the 100%, which is optional for people who want to enjoy the game and get all "big" content (additional levels only need up to 500 moons), but is great if you really WANT to gather each and every single moon. You really don't have to, but for those who think it's fun, it's a long adventure. On the other side, Hat makes for a speedy game with tight mechanics that you probably finish in around 10h the first time around without DLCs and still collect almost everything and do every achievement, for when you want a short, but great experience without having to collect for several dozen hours.
I loved dk64. Everybody complains about to collect every coin and colored banana you need to change kongs 3 times. Just collect as many bananas and coins as you need 🙄 its not that much to progress
Donkey Kong 64 largely disliked? Wow.. I mean.. I dunno why the dialogue has shifted so much in recent years but I've always liked DK64 and I feel liek so many always have. I think it's pretty well agreed Banjo is better but Idk... is DK really largely disliked? is my perception just warped?
I honestly like Banjo-Tooie more than its predecessor, but you're spot on about the notes and how they're too condensed. I felt like Rare was overcompensating for the sins of DK64. That said, it really amazed me when I finally played Banjo-Tooie for the first time last year. It felt like such a better version of DK64 that it was staggering. Managing multiple characters better (though not perfect), having more reasonable amounts of collectibles, and having mini-games that didn't make me want to tear my hair out. I wouldn't have believed such a thing possible from that time period having grown up with DK64, but damn if Tooie didn't pull it off.
I guess it's not a popular opinion, but I truly do still love DK64. picked it up recently and I still love it.Even as a kid, you move fast enough for me and I never feel like the levels get old. I love how interconnected everything it, seeing the ghosts of bannanas to know you'll get to explore again there as lanky or diddy. If you cut out some of the bonus barrels that were more coding issue than design issue, LOOKING AT YOU BEAVER BOTHER, it'd honestly be top 5 easily. it's still top 10 for me though, I love coming back to it occasionally to do an almost 101%. sometimes 101%. but seriously, screw like 3 bonus barrels in particular.
Amen, I as well love the weirdly dark charm and atmoshphere the game has, as well as the absolutely phenomenal soundtrack, and I never really personally found the many collectables, backtracking, and movements to be bothersome(in fact all the kongs move smoothly and pretty quick with there moveset other than Chunky). Tho if the game is to ever recive a remake I DEFINETLY think they should allow instant kong swapping, better/improved mini games, more to the hub world, and keep the monkey smash multiplayer and add online to it. Would love to see all of Grants OST in remade in the modern gaming gen, tho if the OST stays the exact same im 1000% fine with that as well, one of my top 5 gaming OST of all time.
That's awesome timing! I'm in the middle of building a (very) small game for a university course and I was struggling a bit with the "collectable stuff"- part. Thank you so much, you've given me a few great ideas to work with :)!
I think my favorite collectathon is Spyro 3 with a wide variety of challenges and the extra playable characters are a blast of course I love all the classic Spyro trilogy, now if only I had w ps4 to play the reignited trilogy
DK 64 is one of my favorite games, but it definitely has its flaws. The backtracking with the different Kongs can be a bit much. You have to do some weirdly specific stuff in order to beat the game. They reuse minigames a lot, some of which are frustrating like Beaver Bother. Not to say that bigger is always better, but I really do enjoy DK64's large worlds. There is a lot to explore on a first play-through.
It has a lot of flaws, but the things it got right were amazing. If only they had a better system than the tag barrel for switching kongs. I think most of the issues stems from this clunky mechanic.
To me, what makes these kinds of games fun isn't me collecting things, it's the journey to collect them, and the obstacles that must be overcome. I think that's what a lot of people miss whether they criticize of defend collectahons.
Probably because of the multiplayer in Tooie. As an adult I like Kazooie more than Tooie because it's not too big but I have so many good memories of playing the Tower of Tragedy and shootout games with my brother and neighbors in Tooie growing up.
I know it's not very well designed, but I have a ton of nostalgia for Donkey Kong 64. Also If you Mario Odyssey I think it's a fantastic example. It made me want to 100% and no game has ever made me want to do that. The world's are so fun and movement is lighting quick. Great content as usual Snoman!
The funny thing is, as a kid I liked Banjo Tooie better than Kazooie, but upon replaying the games as an adult, I liked Kazooie better because the gameplay was more face-paced and engaging, and the levels were in more manageable chunks. I'll never forget the fact that I just got straight up lost in Glitter Gulch Mine looking for one of the landmarks to find a certain jiggy.
Yeah, the same happened to me basically. I think Tooie is really fun to play through once, but after that it becomes a slog, while Kazooie is evergreen (imo at least)
Really good video! I have to say that I absolutely loved collecting and completing the Spyro Reignited Trilogy. They just made collecting everything so satisfying in my opinion. I did wish the other two games followed Spyro 2's example of having some little activities post-game to unlock rewatching old cutscenes. Also, the way they updated Sparx to point you in the direction of gems you missed is extremely helpful and hope more games follow that mechanic
Many of the points you talk about in the video are why I never brought myself to finish Jak and Daxter. I wouldn't call it a bad game by any means, but there were a lot of design choices that hindered my experience. Probably the biggest thing that bugged me was the lack of landmarks in most of the stages. Like, for as much the environments in Yooka Laylee (and in some levels of Tooie) blend in with each other, I could usually get a decent idea of where I was. In Jak, I often found myself stumbling around the levels trying to figure out where the heck I even was. The swamp level in particular has practically no unique set pieces at all, it's ridiculous. The levels also tend to go for a "realistic" sort of look, and while this is great for immersion (Jak is a technologically impressive game with how it handles loading times for sure), it also causes some levels to be drab and forgettable. Exploration is the crux of collectathons, and when the act of exploring is confusing, then the rest is naturally going to fall apart. I have a few other issues as well. While I don't think a dozen fast movement techniques is really essential for a game like Jak due to how its levels are designed, I do think he's still too slow regardless. It feels like I was only just barely making most jumps. I don't think level design where you're constantly cutting it close is very satisfying, especially in a game that's designed like this. And then there's your point about all the collectibles leading to the same main collectible, which robs those side collectibles of the value they could've had. I think that would be much more suited for a game like Super Mario 64, where half the fun comes from exploring your movement options. Great video. I also completely agree about Banjo Kazooie requiring too many Jiggies to finish the game. You only need 90% of Notes to access Gruntilda, so why isn't it the same ratio for the Jiggies? It feels very arbitrary in that regard, and it makes me wonder if it's only there because the devs didn't want you to be able to skip any levels--which is a shame, because I think it would've been incredibly interesting if you were allowed to. The vast majority of players are going to go into every level at least once on their first playthrough regardless of the end requirements anyway.
I personally was always a fan of the LEGO games. Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc Everything is destroyable which is really satisfying and also rewards you with precious coins
![[Part 1] ทารกน้อยถูกทิ้ง👶 หญิงชราเก็บขวดขายเลี้ยงดูเขาจนโต #โลกการละคร](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nPTDvFCExks/mqdefault.jpg)
Not that it was that fun,
but beating Dk64 101% changes a man
I did it too as a kid...that explains a lot about me
Sometimes... I still hear the beavers.
I love it
i still cant wrap my head around how this one coin thing was never found for like over a decade.
I've done it 3 times.
People who don't play collectathons seem to always think that the collecting is supposed to be where the fun comes from.
While collecting trinkets can be satisfying, they really are not what makes these games fun. The actual function of the collectables is to give you a reason to EXPLORE. They're there to faciliate the adventure, and the fun comes from charm and discovery. Not from playing janitor.
qwertyo76
I think metroidvanias and survival games do exploration better
Agree'd. A good collectathon has interesting worlds that are fun to explore and move around in
@@cloudy772 You could argue that Metroidvanias are just collectathons, I mean in Metroid games you're exploring the areas looking for weapon upgrades to collect.
MCFPapa
True but it seems that in these game collectables are scattered everywhere and don’t do much except for unlocking doors,ammo or money
Whereas in metroidvanias when you “collect” and item it gives you a new movement ability (double jump,grappling hook,glider.etc)
@@cloudy772 I've heard some argue that Banjo IS somewhat of a metroidvania. Unlocking new abilities to progress to places you couldn't explore before is a staple in Banjo, though not as much of a focus.
@Mattew I think it's really telling that most of the best collectathons have a breadcrumb collectable that, far from being valuable, are deliberately placed right in your path. If you know what you're doing, collectables will be used as a means to an end, rather than an end in itself.
I like when the worlds in collectathons change whenever you accomplish a minor or major feat. As an example, the sand kingdom in Mario Odyssey starts with ice blocks, teasing you with not being able to access certain spots. After you explore much of the world to fight the boss, once you do the ice melts, giving you a reason to visit again. Seeing the world change constantly from your actions is once of the greatest feelings a video game can offer, and always makes the next romp around the world a unique time
Memed up Gamer Yeah, that's a cool feeling.
This. This is such a powerful mechanic to encourage backtracking without making the player feel like it’s a chore.
Maybe it’s not exactly the same but I love the level in banjo kazooie where you could enter in different seasons. It’s amazing to see the same level in different conditions and notice the inhabitants change their behaviour. I used to love that level so much, it hurts
@@niekvanderkam I honestly think click clock wood is one of the best levels in the game
Sunshine did it too. And galaxy did sort of, with 2 or 3 objectives per level sometimes that would either introduce a new area or change the existing one.
I guess those games aren’t really as much “collectathons” as mario odyssey is. Sunshine and especially galaxy are probably closer to regular 3d platformer. Whereas odyssey is unquestionably a collectathon with its 999 moons, 1000 regional coins, tens of thousands of regular coins, 8 bit luigis, etc.
Tooie's worlds felt much more connected than Kazooie, considering each level had an exit that lead to another level rather than the overworld. That was one of my favorite things as a kid. It was so cool exploring Jolly Roger's Lagoon, and then you enter the faucet in the main area and hear Grunty's Industries music.
Yeah, its overall world feels much more cohesive as a result.
The randomness of Jinjos was really annoying though. They weren't consistent like in Kazooie. I liked the "5 on each level for a jiggy" concept, but instead they added 4 new colors and changed the number of jinjos on each map to be arbitrary so you didn't even know how many you had to look for without hitting the pause menu to check. That's one of the things that I think Kazooie did better. Every world had the same maximums. 10 jiggies, 100 notes, 5 jinjos, and then red/gold feathers, eggs, and mumbo tokens to help along the way. Aside from mumbo tokens though, if you ran out of consumable materials, you could always exit and re-enter the level to respawn them. I also like how you had to get all 100 notes in Kazooie instead of the permanent collection of notes in Tooie. Reason being that Kazooie made it feel much more rewarding to know that you had explored the entire level in one go. If you couldn't find all 100 notes, you knew you'd missed something in that level and nobody wants to miss out on exploring the world so it wasn't a chore to look for the extra note or few that was hiding somewhere.
Memory lane story: I remember the first time I played BK, I was like 6 or something, and I had just come out of TTC after a few hours of trying to stay away from that scary shark, and I couldn't figure out how to get back up the ledge because I didn't know I could climb the vine (since the tutorial only showed how to climb trees), so I spent like an hour looking for an alternate exit to somewhere in the CCW jiggy room. Eventually, my dad asked if I'd tried to climb up the vine and I was like ??? but the tutorial didn't say you can climb vines. Serious oversight for the game not saying "btw you can also climb vines and other small round objects" but I guess the challenge was in figuring out what you could/couldn't climb?
CANARY F***ING MARY
@@TaIathar jinjo count is the same in each world, but the jiggies aren’t rewarded for getting all of them from each world, instead you have to get all of a given color(which are randomly distributed per save).
The numbers of collectibles are consistent per world(jiggies, jinjos, notes, honeycombs). Mumbo tokens in the first game do not respawn(unless that was changed in later releases).
I really disliked having to get 100 notes/jinjos in single visits since levels quickly became tedious when you missed a note or died(especially on the later levels), though I think it would have been excusable if you didn’t need as many notes to open the later music doors
More connnected =/= considering the BACKTRACKING you have to do to establish said world connections. BK1 simply did it better by having the worlds be isolated and not require an ungodly amount of backtracking
I really like Tooie. I disagree with most of the negatives you described; I liked the backtracking component, and I thought there was plenty of significant landmarks, but yeah the note bundling was dumb.
I loved platformers for gaining new abilities that helped you get to different areas, and I think Tooie did it best.
A Hat in Time should be the benchmark for every upcoming collectathon though.
I find Tooie to be sort of half way between Kazooie and DK64. It has some of the same problems DK64 has, but they're much less significant, and its middle ground works well in its favor, using many of Kazooie's best elements to make its large worlds work, with only a couple of exceptions. If you just want Banjo-Kazooie but bigger and longer, Tooie's there. If you want Tooie but bigger, longer, and slower, you've got DK64, but Tooie I think sort of rides on the edge of too slow, but it's not that bad, and it can still be great especially on your first time through.
@@pumpkinpartysystem I think Tooie's strongest elements are the diverse new moves on top of what you learnt in Kazooie. With the exception of Click Clock Wood, I liked Tooie's world's more than Kazooie. I think where DK64 failed was the method of traversal. The moveset was very limited compared to BK. I didn't like character exclusive collectables either. Too much needless backtracking.
Tooie achieved a level of world-building on the N64 that I still find impressive today. Each area is intricately interwoven with the rest in ways that not only make sense, but are interesting and creative as well. Tooie isn't as accessible as Kazooie, but I love it all the more for the result
Except for the bonfire cavern in Terrydactyland, that place is useless.
@@pumpkinpartysystem yeah bit of an income just to get to the stomping plains. Thanks God there's a fast travel after it.
Some of my favourites are Banjo-Kazooie, Tooie, Mario Odyseey and more recenty, Spyro. I really liked how Spyro had tight, compact levels that could be completed in 10-15 minutes, and still had multiple braching paths. Every time I saw a new set of gems I went "Oooh, what's over here?" and it was so much fun and easy to naigate and explore.
Spyro holds up SO well I was amazed!
TheCartoonGamer8000 also the n sane trilogy.
Did anyone else find all 24 sno globes hidden in this video to unlock the secret bonus video?
LOL
he should do that and make a website where you have to put the timestamp of each one to unlock something
No
Japanese Guy yes
I got 23 where’s the other one?
Jak and Daxter is great because it avoids backtracking except for a single instance. Jak already has his full moveset at the start of the game so the only thing limiting your ability to explore levels is your skill.
The game is vibrant and cartoony with unique levels that feel like they actually exist in the world, as in they affect other levels and provide insight to the world and its relationship with the precursors.
Yeah I did really like that I could just go into each level and 100% it right then and there. Felt super satisfying to just move on to the end and have it all
Backtracking can be a blessing when it’s done correctly. That’s exactly why Metroidvanias are a widely beloved genre.
Also, some people may not have cared as much about the collecting aspect. I played it because it looked like a fun game. And once starting it, was interested in seeing the story all the way through.
Banjo Tooie is underrated. The interlocking of the levels was a cool idea, and I liked revisiting areas with new abilities.
Dk64 was awesome, but the overuse of repetitive bonus games was its main flaw.
I agree I liked I could influence worlds all over, it was like a puzzle in a puzzle and thought that was a great feature.
Agree
Ambition is a blessing and a curse. Some games want to aim for this gargantuan scale, but they just don't have the interesting content to fill it up. Odyssey did that really well where Yooka Laylee and Tooie stumbled with it. Excellent video as usual dude!
My apologies if you already know this and this information is useless, but from what i have gathered there was originally planned to be much more for Vexx than was was gotten in the end. From hints to multiplayer possibilities with the Dark Vexx stages, to Daggercrag and Dragonsreach at one point having been one big level, the Landspire being a big level itself, a much bigger story... but i guess the developers ran into limitations and/or recognized their ambitions and toned it down, but parts of what they were striving for got sacrificed as a result.
I find this a big pity. I have Vexx myself and i haven't gotten farther than The Below, but i would love to see al that potential realized in full. Same with the stuff about the magic healing wells in Legend of Kay, for example, as well as Sphinx (which i sadly didn't enjoy as much as i had hoped) But ESPECIALLY Malice. Poor Malice. And Haven as well. Or at least, for me.
The closest thing to a 3D platformer with fulfilled potential and an interesting world would be Mushroom Men: The Spore Wars, although i am about just halfway with that game so i probably should reserve any proper judgement until after i have finished that game.
I think you replied to the wrong person - which is to say, me instead of Nitro.
Oh. My bad. I'm not very well-versed with YT yet.
My apologies.
I'm glad to hear that :)
I haven't taken a look at that, though. In fact, it seems like your comment has suddenly disappeared. I don't know how that happened.
To be completely honest, I didn't really find Odyssey interesting. The number of Moons made collecting more of them than necessary feel completely pointless, and the music felt...bland, aside from Wooded Kingdom.
Is Katmari Damacy technically not the biggest collectathon of all?
i think that the Katamari franchise is sort of in a grey area cause i can't tell if you can count it as a Collectathon since the series is kind of like a puzzle action-adventure game where your playing as a prince who is only 5cm's tall (that's pretty tiny) and is somehow strong enough to roll around a massive ball that can grow up to like 300 meter's
Yeah it feels like more of an action game to me as well. With the feel of a live picture-book reading for nursery kids (sort of.... haha)
I think I liked Banjo Tooie more than Kazooie actually for a few reasons. Although the worlds were big and could be confusing, they were all very unique and fun to explore. Witchy World was an such a cool level. And back tracking to some when you finally learned the new move so you could finally get those last few jiggies made me feel like you were really progressing as a character and made the world feel really connected. But most importantly were the side characters. Every level had new unique characters to the world that you met along the way and had to help to get the jiggies. I guess it made the world feel full of life and dynamic? Maybe that is the right word? Like it was not just Jamjar and Mumbo as your only friends in the world, it was all the interesting characters that you met and helped along the way. Though I will say Grunty's Industries was definitely more confusing than it needed to be.
"It feels satisfying to not only collect everything, but to do it quickly and efficiently." Welcome to speedrunning, my friend. I run Banjo-Kazooie, Tooie, and DK64, and they're all immensely satisfying in their own ways.
One thing that really caught my attention is how banjo tooie is made into a colectathon by the simple fact that it's a sequel to Kazooie. I, personally, don't play tooie as a colectathon at all. To me, it's one of the first 3d open world games ever. And it's a damn good one at that!
The collectables aren't really about collecting when you think about it. Jinjos are being rescued, jiggies serve as keys, just like in BK. And notes are your upgrade currency!
It's not about completing every level, it's about solving the puzzles of doing what you can at a given time! The notes don't guide you in your tour, because you're supposed to be your own guide!
Maybe it's just me, but it really feels incredibly reasonable to see colectathons as precursors to open-world. They end up fulfilling different roles when it comes to gaming, but there's a reason why exploring in Breath of the Wild feels so much better than in LoZ or aLttP. And if you look at BK and BT like that, it makes perfect sense that BT wouldn't feel like an amazing colectathon. It's because it decided to do take a different approach that resulted in a different experience!
This is exactly how I feel about tooie, I enjoy exploring way more than collecting.
Tooie is not an open world. In open world you must be free to go everywhere you want since the beginning of the game. Tooie is still first partitioned, and after you unlocking the worlds they re interconnected. It s a semi open world, but really well thoughted from the perspective of connectivity between the worlds and backtracking.
@@antoinepanza9222 excuse me what game have you been playing lol
Tooie not open world xD
@@brittasnow64
Have you only read my response?
Tooie is not open world because you unlock every world one by one. It s still linear, forcing you to things in a certain order. It s semi open world. The same thing as ocarina of time.
Agree
I've always found it odd how people hate on tooie for needing power ups for older areas, but praise metroidvanias for doing literally the exact same thing
Gameboo, my thoughts exactly! Super Metroid did it magnificently of course, but some games certainly have failed in such a way that makes backtracking completely monotonous and unnecessary. Banjo Tooie did a good job with it overall.
different genres.
What frustrated me about this is that oftentimes, I didn't know whether I was doing something wrong or just lacking the ability to progress. I liked the compact, straight-forward style of Kazooie a lot better.
It's complicated but is because the structure of a Metroidvania only looks the same but it isn't, a metroid vania has a largely linear path with multiple branching areas where as a true Collectathon puts you in the centre of a giant circle and lets you decide where and how to traverse it, if Collectathons had the same structure as a Metroidvania, it would feel fluke completing a level of crash bandicoot, but where you have to go up and down that same large path over and over to explore every branching path, this works in 2D because of its perspective, instead of looking like your constantly moving ahead of yourself, any large 2D area gives you new upgrades which give you short cuts, if this were done in a 3D crash bandicoot stage, you would still have the desire to walk through the path you already played because the Collectathon teaches you to explore every nook, a giant scavenger hunt, where as a metroidvania makes you feel like you are getting stronger and progressing, the key of which is harder areas are now easier because it makes you feel like you earned being better, in a Collectathon, that doesn't work because every power up had to be easier to understand and have a low skill ceeling in favor of being more puzzle based
Metroidvanias are basically “upgrade or key collectathons” where all the different paths connect together, Banjo Tooie is like a Collectathon Metroidvania, it’s not perfect but I’d still say it’s a great game
Eh, I still vastly prefer Tooie to Kazooie. I actually *liked* how big those worlds were and the backtracking I thought was really neat because nearly all the worlds were connected to one another and how some tasks done in one world would affect another.
In my eyes, Tooie puts a lot more emphasis on exploration with its open world compared to Kazooie's confined playgrounds, and it's for that reason that I would happily pick Banjo-Tooie back up at any time.
Its good that you don't like Nuts and bolts.I love Kazooie but Tooie is still a good game
There's good shit and bad shit in both games, but Nuts and Bolts will always be booty
@@original_shmirko_account i cant say i disliked nuts and bolts. it had its moments.
I loved the interconnectivity of the worlds. I loved the unique multi-level puzzles that made you use things in one level to solve problems in another. I think it's a superior game to Kazooie. Not to say Kazooie was bad, but Tooie was just better. I also love when sequels don't arbitrarily take away powers from the first game. Nearly everything you could do by the end of Kazooie you could do at the start of Tooie, yet there was still a ton of new moves to learn to improve the bear and bird. But FPS Kazooie was a big mistake...those sections were always my least favorite.
Never thought I’d see the day where someone treats backtracking as a positive.
Fun fact: Fungi forest was supposed to be for Banjo Kazooie but got released on dk 64
Imagine what level could have been for dk 64 instead of fungi forest, and how Banjo kazooie would be different
I love Collectathons. My favorite games are Donkey Kong 64, Banjo-Kazooie and Mario 64
Thanks, i know that DK64 has a ton of flaws, but is my favorite game of all
@@gastonmoreno4881 same
me too Banjo-Kazooie
I just love the sound effect when you collect a gem in Spyro. It’s very satisfying.
The point at about 6:08, about Banjo placing notes in lines to guide you, is one I've heard a lot, especially in regards to Banjo vs. Yooka. And I have to assume that every single person who makes that point either hasn't actually played Banjo in a decade or is blinded by the fact that they've played Banjo so much that they don't even need to think about where the notes are anymore.
Banjo has tons of instances where notes aren't placed in a nice line that guides you along. There are plenty of points where they're placed on all the corners of a platform, or on each individual frond of a palm tree, or at the end of a perilously thin platform that serves no purpose but to hold a note, or slightly out of view in a room with a fixed camera angle, or literally any time you have to collect notes while fighting with the terrible swimming controls. (And not entirely note placement related, but bonus points for the original release, where you had to do it all over again if you died or left the world without collecting all of the notes. Hooray for dangling notes above instadeath traps in Rusty Bucket Bay.)
And Yooka has plenty of instances where the quills _do_ form a line to guide you. There are certainly some annoying quills like the one at 6:34, but that's not the norm. Furthermore, due to the increased draw distance possible with modern hardware, a line of quills isn't the only way to guide the player anymore. A single bouncing golden quill placed on a ledge that you can spot from far away can accomplish the exact same thing.
I dunno. I just generally disagree with every single time you used Yooka as an example of bad collectathon design in this video.
Yooka's controls aren't as fun as Mario Odyssey or A Hat in Time, but he starts out moving quickly and jumping high, and he just gets even faster and able to jump higher as you progress, ultimately culminating in the ability to just straight up fly whenever you feel like it. Compare to Banjo or Jak, who have to constantly Talon Trot or long jump to move at anywhere near a decent speed, have to crouch jump or ledge grab to reach most platforms, and barely upgrade their speed and jumping abilities by the end of the game. And I love Banjo and Jak, but man, I've always thought they felt sluggish even back in the day.
And I love Yooka's levels (except the swamp). They have a bunch of landmarks that I was immediately interested in checking out, and the expansion mechanic meant they could be huge but not immediately overwhelming. They seemed to have some sort of Pagie, mini-game, or even just quills in every corner of every map. If it wasn't for Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey coming out in the same year, I'd say Yooka was the first game to properly scratch my exploration itch in a long time.
Yooka's got issues, and I admit I'm probably more forgiving of a lot of them because I make games and understand the limitations they had and compromises they had to make due to their budget and time constraints. But pretty much every complaint about the game that compares it unfavorably to Banjo seems to be based on a version of Banjo that doesn't exist. And even with the valid complaints, it absolutely doesn't deserve to be used as the constant "What not to do" counter-example in a video like this.
I agree. I like Yooka Laylee. I played it first, ignoring all reviews. I made my own mind up. The game is good, its definitely not an example of "what not to do". It just needs some improvements here and there. If YL is a bad game then there is no hope left.
Also what i've noticed online as well is some people seem to confuse between "not liking a game" and "bad game". If you don't like a game it doesn't mean it's a bad game, it just means it doesn't suit your personal preference in games. Objectively, YL is a functional 3D platformer, featuring music by Grant Kirkhope with over 100 challenges set across five expansive worlds trickled with collectibles and mechanics/moves to unlock. Objectively speaking, I don't think people can easily dismiss YL as a bad game without people like us calling them out.
I'm several years late to the party, but I finally played YL a couple months ago and only started looking into reviews afterward, and you've echoed my thoughts on the "notes as breadcrumbs" argument perfectly. YL had probably around 20 or fewer quills that genuinely felt out of place or trollish, in a game with 1010 quills, and you need probably close to half of the quills to learn all the moves. In BK, there were definitely *at least* 20 out-of-place, trollish notes (I count the 16 notes in the winter section of Click Clock Wood as trollish, and also all the notes on Venus Flytraps in autumn, plus a good number of Rusty Bucket Bay notes, and also the ones in the treasure chests in Treasure Trove Cove), but in BK, you need around 90% of the notes in the game to finish it, and if you die, you have to start over.
In addition, seeing Bubblegloop Swamp used as the example of a level with memorable landmarks that keep the player from getting lost seems strange. Bubblegloop Swamp is one of the least structured levels in Banjo-Kazooie. It's essentially a grid with an island in each square, and it has two different central islands that are both less remarkable than the edge islands. The landmarks make each island stand out, but the macro layout is a bit of a random mess, which only feels manageable because the level is so small. If Bubblegloop Swamp were to be expanded to a YL-sized level, it would be a complete maze. It would be like Icymetric Palace in YL, only probably more confusing. Every YL level except Moodymaze Marsh is better-structured with central landmarks than Bubblegloop Swamp.
my favorite collectathon is banjo-tooie i know it's been getting a lot of hate lately but I still revisit it (and kazooie) once a year. most people prefer kazooie but I think tooie has better level design story and writing it's definitely slower than kazooie but if you have a lot of time on your hands I think it can be a great relaxing expierience (but what do I Know my favorite level is grunty industries)
twitch guy
What? Whose hating on tooie? I really like both games equally. Banjo Kazooie is the classic and Banjo Tooie is pretty much what’s was missing from the first game IMO and the soundtrack is amazing on both games
I also prefer Tooie to Kazooie - partly because it starts you out where you left off the previous game rather than requiring you to re-earn old abilities.
Though next time I replay it, I might make a point of playing some GoldenEye first - the FPS sections are much easier when I remember the maps properly...
Tooie was amazing, I always loved it but haven't played it in a while since my hydrophobia bleeds into games a bit. I always have to play them with someone else. One of my fondest childhood memories is holding the guide when I was a kid and helping my dad beat the game 1100%. the amount of tries we took on Canary Mary in Cloud Cuckooland was ridiculous...until like half an hour in, when he said screw it and grabbed his high-powered back massager and nearly broke the controller. that thing eventually did break a gamecube controller.
I think the reason people tend to dislike Tooie nowadays is going back to it. It's a lot bigger than Kazooie, and with the backtracking, takes longer to complete. Being replayed, a lot of the freshness is taken away from the experience, and it quickly turns into a chore. This is also why most fans have no problems replaying Kazooie. Its a shorter experience that can be completed quickly for a taste of nostalgia without going stale.
At least that's why my favourite when I was a kid was Tooie because it was bigger and improved on so much from Kazooie, but nowadays I can't finish a playthrough when I go back to it, while I do enjoy replaying Kazooie when I get the chance.
Dang, who in their right mind hates on Tooie? It is literally the previous game made bigger and better.
For me, a good 3D platformer is one that focuses on movement above all else. It's why Spyro 1 is what I still consider to be the best game in the Spyro franchise.
The whole focus was using the abilities of a dragon to explore every nook and cranny of the level. No gimmicks, no janky alternate character playstyles or mini-games and no arbitrarily gating when you can collect everything in the level for the sake of artificially extending the game. Your just a dragon on a fun adventure using his abilities to explore every corner of his world.
It's why I'm hoping that, with the Reignited Trilogy being successful, if we do get a new Classic game it'll be in a 'back to basics' approach. Just a dragon using his abilities to the fullest to explore new and interesting locations. No mini-games or alternative playstyles that have the possibility of ruining an otherwise fun game. *Glares at Spyro 3*
I've been hoping ever since Crash and Spyro got the remakes that they'd make a true 4th installment in each. With today's technology, it could be so good!
I heard that Crash is apparently getting a completely new game in 2020. Here's hoping Spyro does too.
I think you might like Mushroom Men, in that case. Yes, there is of course the combat, but the different kinds of collectables encourage you to explore as they will make combat easier and extend your health and Sporekinesis meter. As a mushroom man you can roll quickly, jump quite high and use your cap to glide (as well as block attacks), and the Thrusting weapons give you a little dash when jumping and attacking in the air that when used rightly, i think could be used quite well for platforming and exploration.
There's also the Sticky Hand, which can be thrown on many different surfaces - so not just particular spots- like a big motorbike to then jump off of it pretty high again and get to higher places easier.
I'm not sure if you would like that, since there is combat involved (though not to a very big extent) but i thought i would mention it anyway since the environments themselves have great atmospheres to them and are pretty fun to explore.
Spyro 3 gave me a headache
I thought Spyro 2 was liked more?
I love it when Colletathons have giant worlds. After the first playthrough, the world feels so tiny, because you already know most Things and rush trough the worlds.
Thats why I love Banjo Tooie so much. Its a master piece of Organisation and I love thinking about the best route and what I should do next.
Also, I never had problems with the teleporters, because the are so well placed.
Fun Movement and controlled world design are super important to me. I usually don't finish a collectathon if it's movement is boring, the worlds are too big, it's collectibles are annoying, or the density of collectibles is too low. Yooka Laylee and DK64 sadly fell into this category for me.
If I had to pick, I'd say Mario Sunshine and A Hat in Time are my favorite collectathons. Sunshine has what I'd consider the best movement in the genre, which makes the game fun to play on its own, but it also has a fairly unique setting that feels cohesive. (FLUDD is a brilliant mechanic, too!) A Hat in Time also has great movement, but what makes it stick out to me is the incredible charm and the massive variety of stuff that the game has to offer. Each collectible, world, and main character is unique and memorable, you get different rewards for each collectible, and everything is just oozing with personality!
I think the one area A Hat in Time drops the ball is that yarn collection progress isn't tracked, and there's no way to find more without wandering, so there's no way to know how much you haven't found. Which is a shame, because the fact every single ball of yarn has its own little challenge or fun hiding spot associated with it makes me want to collect them all!
Honestly, I don't think A Hat in Time is that good of a collectathon. It's a good platformer, but not a good collectathon. Its priorities are almost the opposite of a collectathon in that a ton of effort went into its main story missions, but pretty much everything outside of the main story missions feels empty. There are lots of NPCs, but none that need any kind of help that would involve going on a sidequest, doing a minigame, or the like. You just enter a level, are guided to where you need to go for the main story mission you selected, and if you see a glowing object in the distance, you can go collect it. A significant number of those glowing collectibles are just tokens and are largely pointless. It's an incredibly linear game compared to other collectathons, and with less motive or opportunity to go explore and get lost.
The green orbs that are used as money are the most common collectible, but they just respawn whenever you re-enter the level, so there's no incentive to try to collect them all. You just collect the ones that are convenient and on your way to where you're going. They occasionally show you which walls to run up, but that's about it.
And for all the criticisms I've heard of Yooka-Laylee having confusing level design, I'd say Subcon Forest and Mafia Town are both more confusing in their level design than most of Yooka-Laylee's worlds. Battle of the Birds only escapes being confusing by being linear and highly episodic, and Alpine Skyline escapes being confusing by being a collection of linear levels extending from a single hub that you get warped back to after each time piece.
My favorite series of collect-a-thons will always be Spyro, with Spyro 3 being my favorite of those. Everything in that game is just so satisfying to collect due to a mix of the excellent sound design, sprawling but still somewhat linear levels, and interesting world building. That guy Jim Sterling did a video on it saying that it was the first collect-a-thon he’d ever played that he actually wanted to get 100% on.
Now I’ve never played the Banjo Kazooie games, but I do hear really good things.
I know DK64 isn't perfect but something about it makes it my favorite collectathon. I think for all it's flaws it actually gets quite a few things right.
It's got style thats for sure
ImmaLittlePip
He has no style, he has no grace
Th-this Kong has a funny face
He can handstand when he needs to
And stretch his arms out, just for you
Inflate himself just like a balloon
This crazy Kong just digs this tune!
Good music, interesting levels, packed with collectibles, cool moves and mechanics to learn, can play as five different kongs... what's not to like? The complaints about the game being tedious is all bs, back in the day you didn't have a lot of good and big games coming out like today. So whatever you bought, you'd hope you can play for a long time. Plus, i never had a problem with backtracking. If you truly like a game you're playing, backtracking really just tests your memory in each world, making the worlds more memorable in the long term. Most importantly, i just think the devs didnt want you spending too long in each world that it becomes boring, since there are a lot of collectibles. This is where backtracking really allows the player to explore new worlds and go back and forth between worlds so the player doesn't get bored.
Edit: Also revisiting previous worlds allows the player to feel a sense of progression since the enemies are now easier due to the extra health gained and new moves acquired.
@@thetimetraveller2034 agreed
DK64 was an overall good game, but bad collectathon. That's the way I see it.
Banjo Tooie is one of my favorite games ever. I love the movement and the boss fights. Also the music really makes the areas become alive. In addition to the upgrades, and I actually like that you go back to previous areas. Makes the game feel dynamic.
EXACTLY, no idea why this guy considers backtracking a bad thing. What if I really liked Witchyworld and wanted to go back? Well the game gives me a reason to later! Several of the levels in Banjo Tooie are some of my favourite and what I feel are the most memorable in a platform game.
I really love Super Mario Sunshine and loved collecting all of the Shines, but I was a little disappointed when I found out that the only thing that opens up the final level is beating Episode 7 in every level, making all other Shines meaningless unless you’re going for 100%. Still my favorite Mario game, though.
Sunshine is super underrated. Love that game.
I think there's another item that could be tacked onto the "layout" idea. Yes items can do things like outline the paths that people can take, but often times the more beloved levels will have some place that gives players either a general scope of the level, or act as a level-wide reference point. This often comes in the form of a tall object towards the center of the map, and even when you're not on top of that object itself players can still understand where they are by looking at it and understanding where they are relative to it.
In Banjo we have Spiral Mountain, Mumbo's Mountain, Treasure Trove Cove's arch mountain, Clanker, Feezeezy's Snowman, and so on. You know that if the level-long slope in Mumbo's Mountain is to your right that you're heading away from the world exit, and toward it if the slope is on your left. Ticker's Tower, the unwalkable cliffside, and the pond segment the level in half the other way, giving the player lots of ways to orient themselves on their very first level outside the tutorial area.
Even the things like Click Clock Wood that are too tall to see much of the level from can be used as reference by looking for specific object like "Is this the side where Mumbo is at the bottom, or the one with the eagle nest?" The sequel does this too with levels like Mayahem Temple and Witchyworld, but can't do it as much because of all the segmentation. Donkey Kong 64 falls short here because of its love for hallways that all look identical, keeping tall objects only ever as set pieces rather than reference points.
Conker's Bad Fur Day was my kind of platformer. The collectables included:
1) Wads of money
...and that's it. Now you're talkin' my language...
One interesting collecthon that time my mind is the Gex series. Specifically, the second and third game. I only played the second game on the N64 so I can only speak for the level design of that game.
In the second game (Gex: Enter the Gecko), the levels are linear but you have many ways of exploring the level. As for the movement, it's nice, quick, and smooth for the most part. (Except the Titanic level.) The collectibles (the remotes) each have their own functions too. The main collectibles will open up new areas and the boss levels when enough are collected. And the hidden collectibles (found somewhere in the level or by collecting several mini-collectibles) unlock bonus levels for a good challenge.
The only gripe I have with the game is that some of the mid to later levels can be confusing to navigate, especially when getting to getting all the hidden collectibles, but it's easy to see where you've been before and continue on the right path.
I agree with many of your points. I think giving the player choice in how they play makes for excellent design. Starting off a bit linear to allow the player to grab how the controls work and understand the world is excellent. After the first world, branch out allowing the player to choose where to go, while at the same time keeping the small linearity . In Banjo-Kazooie, after beating Mumbo's Mountain, you have Treasure Trove Cove. Once you grab the Shock Jump ability, you can move onto Clanker's Cavern. Part-way through you can go to Bubblegoop Swamp, and then part-way through you can go to Freezeasy Peak. It slowly increments this way until the final level of Click Clock Wood (Which is by the entrance of Treasure Trove Cove). I think that Click Clock Wood while I found the placement of the puzzle to the entrance a bit annoying, created motivation for pressing forward to figure out where it was. Smaller worlds are more manageable, as much as I love Tooie and DK64, this was one thing that didn't age well, especially as an adult now.
One thing I rarely see mentioned is music. The way the score has been composed to play the same song, but changes slightly if you're underwater, progressing to the many worlds throughout the lair, different seasons, or inside buildings was something that added to the atmosphere of the game, and Nier Automata did what Banjo-Kazooie did, but did 8-Bit renditions of each song when you did the hacking mini-game. This type of effort for a score is fantastic, and I wish that more games would utilize this.
If a game designer ops for multiple characters, you should't be limited to picking up collectibles, and should have the option of switching out (unless each character has a separate story, like Sonic Adventure).
Though not used for platformers, episodic games seem to do well on their own. Imagine defeating the main campaign, defeating the final boss, craving more adventure, then being left on a satisfying cliffhanger like at the end of Banjo-Tooie. Had this been the time when episodics like Penny Arcade, Life is Strange, The Walking Dead, or any other TellTales game were at the level they are now, Stop 'n Swap and games utilizing the 64DD would have probably worked much better, with your progress and stats saved and being able to continue into your next adventure.
Taking this to a further step, creating levels that aren't static. Do something in a level, complete it and move on, then come back and see the level has changed with more to complete, changing your level completion percentage. So long as the story actually takes you back and you can explore a new area or two within the level, this shouldn't break immersion.
A few things I can think of. There are bound to be more, but it has me craving adventure now!
I think the notes were clustered in Tooie specifically because of the larger worlds. They aren't as easy to miss as normal notes, so there won't be "that one flippin' note" in a gigantic world.
Also I really liked that you had to/got to revisit areas in tooie. It made the entire world feel more dynamic and made the areas feel more connected.
It also always made sense to me, since it feels a little too convenient that everything is ordered correctly just for you, whilst like this it feels like the world is a thing separate from the path you're taking through it!
Amazing video! You made some really amazing points! I'd say my favorite from games you didn't mention would have to be chibi robo. It's a huge game, and you are so small, but chibi robo gets it right. Even though the whole map is huge it takes something that's familiar to everyone already. It's a house, it's easy to know where you are, and there are tasks, collectables, and interesting npc's everywhere you go. That was a masterpiece of a collectathon!
You didn't mention *why* Banjo Kazooie had such a high minimum requirement to beat it. It's just over the limit to FORCE you to enter every level, even if just for 10 notes and 4 jiggies. They probably wanted you to visit every level so that the Quiz Show didn't ask you things about levels you didn't visit, or enable a casual player to accidentally miss a bottles ability and not understand how to kill Grunty. It's almost like the devs dug themselves into a bit of a corner with this situation.
That is really interesting, yeah! Wow good point
Great video! I love the detailed analysis of different aspects of level design and mechanics, with specific examples and justification for all your lines of thought. I especially love how you drew the relation between movement ability and size of the world, that's some really neat stuff!
I don't think this really counts as a collectathon, but yesterday i started playing Mushroom Men: The Spore Wars for the Wii... and exploring is one of my favourite things in that game!
The explanation for this will get a little long, though, so grab your fuzzy spore-infected popcorn and take your time.
So in Mushroom Men, you explore some American country state (possibly called Taxes, judging by a of the sign plate found in the second level) from a VERY small perspective- around 3 inches. The game has a level-based structure and the only collectables found are level-specific things like Useless Yellow Shiny Rocks and Possum teeth for example, which is only interesting for those that are interested in seeing bonus art. But the collectables that you really want to watch out for are meteorite chunks and pieces of scav.
Meteorite chunks, after having collected enough of them, increases your Sporekinesis power as well as the amount of Sporekinesis power you can carry and your health, and the pieces of scav are needed to build better weapons.
There are four different weapon types: Bashing, Slashing, Thrusting and Radical, each with their own pros and cons. Bashing is good for straight-up more simple fights, Slashing is good for when you get swarmed because you can spin around with those weapons, Thrusting has a kind of automatic lock-on to easily take care of flying enemies and Radical weapons are the most powerful and take care of enemies the quickest, but require ammunition (like batteries or small gas canisters) and are heavy, taking away your ability to roll as long as it is equipped.
Each new weapon of any type you make is stronger than the last, and because they are divided in different pieces and different types there's more stuff to find if you want to get a new, stronger weapon, to make battles easier and have a more easy time.
Mushroom Men definitely isn't a perfect game. The camera can have a case of "The Clunk" from time to time, but it's not horrible. Jumps feel kind of odd compared to most platformers i have played and the combat sometimes (though for me, honestly very few times as i enjoy the combat enough) can get a bit tedious, but it's the aestethic and atmosphere that i find absolutely great. From exploring the tiny nooks and crannies of shacks and houses, like sneaking into the side of a freezer to find the last piece of the Out-of-Bounds-Flamethrower to melt the ice in which another mushroom man is encased and finding ways to easily kill mutated rabbits, to the mushroom structures and contraptions themselves like the mines with the carts made out of cans and pencils tied together for bridges and support beams and the toilet where you have to make your way up by unclogging steam vents to float up in a balloon made from a sardines can, an electric motor with a makeshift propellor and the balloon itself being a helium-filled animal swimming floatie for kids (or whatever those things are called) whilst listening to some of the oddest but most interesting soundtrack to a 3D platformer i've ever heard.
I find it really charming and an interesting aestethic that i haven't seen too much but would love to see return.
I personally call this aestethic "Junkpunk" or "Mini Junkpunk"
If you don't mind me asking, what do you think of it based on what you are hearing of it? I don't think many have heard of Mushroom Men (which i personally think is a crying shame) but i'm interested in knowing possible bad sides of this that i haven't noticed before (if there even are any) and i would love to see this underrated and very short-lived franchise rise up again from its underground spores, so to say.
Still think De Blob is better
I don't think you meant to reply to me.
EDIT: sorry, got confused with another youtube thread.
My apologies, i was confused with another thread i was replying to.
It's cool that you like De Blob, and i may be interested in playing it some time in the future. But for me personally, Mushroom Men is one of my favourites. Gameplay may be a bit simpler to say, the big guys like Mario (i've never played a Mario game myself, though) but i don't mind at all and am taking my time with the game, because i'm enjoying it so much :)
I love your videos and love the fact that you subtitle them. It makes easy for the ones who are learning the language. Thank you!
I really enjoy your content Snoman. It's really informative and well thought out, I always feel like I learn something.
My favorite collectathon is Jak and daxter and it was the world, characters and variety of things I could do that drew me in. Each new area looking 100 percent unique and seeing the chaos grow as you moved along. Sure it don't got the best collectibles but still I felt like it was the overall adventure and personality that brought it home. I even 100 percent it twice.
Someone may have pointed it out, but banjo kazooie had you collect 810 notes so that you had to visit each world at least once in order to beat the game. The developers likely didnt want anyone to maybe miss out on a world they may have found interesting.
Banjo-Tooie is actually my favorite collectathon of all time BECAUSE of the large worlds, interconnectedness, and backtracking. I think it actually succeeds at the scale where DK64 and Yooka-Laylee fail because instead of being a bunch of stand alone stages, each stage is just a separate piece of one single massive world. Finding shortcuts between the various levels is always exciting because they're often unexpected yet completely logical. Plus it allows for previous ideas to be expanded on that in Kazooie would've been necessarily relegated to a single level - such as Mayan Kickball vs Colosseum Kickball. The train was also a nice touch, as were the warp pads, making every world fairly easy to navigate in spite of their size. I also appreciate the Metroidvania style "That looks like I should be able to reach it... I wonder what ability I'll unlock to get me there" stuff that really adds to the sense of progression and exploration.
Finally, and here's the key difference between Tooie and DK64 or Y-L (or even Odyssey): despite the size of the levels they still always had central hubs that were easy to navigate around (aside from maybe Glitter Gulch Mine and Jolly Roger's Lagoon), and - and this is key - the Jiggies didn't rely on tedius, repetitive, or luck-based tasks. DK 64 and Y-L both lock a number of their collectibles behind insanely frustrating/badly controlled minigames and occasionally even repeat them. The bonus barrels, ring challenges, races, arcade games, and minecarts are all generally frustrating buggy messes that feel like filler and stop the game in its tracks. Tooie has minigames, but all of them are either fun, interesting, or over so quickly that you can't really complain, even if they largely amount to "kill a bunch of blue/green/red things before time runs out;" meanwhile, Beaver Bother can go fuck itself, and DK64 was so stretched for ideas that you play that stupid minigame like 10 times throughout, two of which occur in the same level (Creepy Castle as both Chunky and Lanky).
Donkey Kong 64 largely disliked? gonna need to see some sources there pal
Indeed, it is considered a flawed game to be sure but it is also very much beloved.
Right? Thank you.
my favourite collectable games are the lego games. theres so many things to collects, and one of those is characters, but since characters have different abilities the more of them you collect the more of the other collectables you can get. and you get rewarded with gold bricks for getting these collectables, and those earn you further collectables (minikits) as well as bonus stages. I like it because earning collectables leads to more collectables and it makes it feel like everything has a purpose
I on the other hand enjoy the bigger worlds in BT and DK64, I like that you spend a great amount of time in each 'world' made it feel more than a level but a new land to explore nook and cranny...of course i think they were designed so you could grab what you wanted and move on or if you're in it completion, then getting lost and really committing landmarks to memory I enjoyed immensely, in a way it was more satisfying conquering the mountain instead of walking over the hill.
Banjo Tooie Is A Collectathon Metroidvania. Change My Mind.
I've been calling it that, myself.
Batman: Arkham Asylum is also a stealth-action metrovania.
@@Lugbzurg It's Batroid!
So a... Collectroidvania?
All of these games, along with Zelda and Dark Souls, are actually in the Adventure genre with games like Monkey Island and Thy Dungeonman. Change my mind.
10: Explore the area until you find an item.
20: Explore the area for where to use the item.
30: If you unlock a new area, go to 10. If you unlock a new item, go to 20.
Your overuse of the shift key is dumb. Change my mind.
Also, I have no idea what "metroidvania" means so I'm just gonna sit that one out.
Open-world games are this generation's 3D platformers. Think about it, much like 3D platformers once were, open-world games are now everywhere and they're stuffed with collectibles too!
Just... they're not as charming, they're too big for their own justifiable good, and grabbing a Jiggy in Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie is still a lot more fun than grabbing some boring document in Rise of the Tomb Raider.
I honestly feel like Insomniac's Spider-man is a better collectathon than a majority of the games that actually try to be collectathons nowadays. Sure, the collectables aren't necessary to progress through the game, but they're heavily encouraged and so plentuful that it's impossible not to swing right by a few, meaning that you can just follow a trail of breadcrumbs between major missions; grab a backpack here, snap a photo of a landmark there, take a small detour to do a combat challenge or play a minigame with a research lab, etc. They're consistently different enough that you never feel like you're doing the same task over and over, but instead feel like you're juggling a handful of different types of tasks in whatever order you like inbetween the big set-piece stuff.
Honestly a lot of open world games do benefit from having collectathon-style elements mixed in, as both types of games are meant to be about exploring and discovering every nook and cranny of the world you're in. Horizon: Zero Dawn, Breath of the Wild, and again Spider-man are all great examples of the two subgenres blending to great effect.
A hat in time babyyy
I hope the comeback is sometime. When I was a child I played all those games, what do small children play now? Fortnite... ugh.
Kinda true, but I still feel like games like Just Cause 2 and 3 manage to give enough variety and challenge to stay interesting even if frustrating sometimes and they have so many clear objectives to do and delimited by zones that I see them as collectathons.
Oh shit. Mad Max is a collectathon. I've only realized that now
I would love a 2nd part of this video but talking about the movesets, and as consequence, the character design. What the character can do and why is something worth of talk about, like the reason of the existence of Kazooie is for give a reason why banjo can double jump and then how her inclusion opened to a lot of new moves.
I feel like 100% rewards and what makes 100%-ing a game fun could be its own video. When I think back on games like the DKC series or Yoshi's Island attempting to 100% them was like an entire boat load of new content compared to playing the game through casually and in the case of Yoshi's Island completely transformed how I played the game: From easy little romp to an often pretty difficult perfectionist run through each level. It's like night and day and I'm curious to see what other games are affected that much by a 100% goal.
Yes I always praise DKC2 to high heaven because its collectibles unlock bonus/extra challenging stages. My favorite use of collectibles
Here's a good collectathon example to recommend for you to play and others, Psychonauts. The game has a few collectibles scattered about. The game has a level up system where the more you collect various collectibles. And you can manage to unlock optional new moves at certain ranks and also increase the various aspects of the main character's psychic abilities. There are also brains you need to collect at one point and bringing them back to this one NPC you can get a health extension for each one. And also the levels themselves are great with the main setting in the "real world" being a camp for gifted psychics and an asylum to the minds of several characters and those levels reflect the minds. There are also vaults in those minds which gives backstory slideshows for them.
Personally, I liked the way notes were handled in Banjo-Tooie. In Banjo-Kazooie, it was such a pain to have to get all 100 notes ON A SINGLE PLAYTHROUGH. To top that off, not all the notes acted as pathways around the level. No, instead there was a handful of notes hidden away, in opposite corners of the level, and again, you have to get all of them on one playthrough. I thought Banjo-Tooie actually made it a lot easier by bundling the notes together AND actually saving the ones you collect without needing to grab all of them at once. Though, I will concede that the excessive backtracking was something that brings Tooie down a bit.
That is totally fair, and definitely the worst aspect of the original, luckily they fixed it in the XBLA port and keep your notes when you leave/die :)
One thing I noticed, doing level analysis for Spyro and Jak (which I'm going to write up one of these days in a way that is actually fit for outside eyes) is how linear they are. The levels have a pretty clear and easily navigable critical path, Spyro more so than Jak, but even Jak is very much a "corridor platformer". The exploration aspects of them come more from the way that side paths branch off of each other and the way paths loop around, and sometimes a path will branch, giving player's two ways to reach a critical location, and the shortcuts that can be taken between routes and (secondarily) nooks and crannies hidden along them. In Spyro especially, the general level design is kind of oddly reminiscent of a racing game track, of all things.
Actually, even Mario Odyssey can be amazingly linear on its critical paths. Take a look at the "story missions" of Tostarena sometime, again, or even better the ones in Seaside Kingdom. Those are very big open worlds, but the level geometry and design push the player into taking a very specific route through the level if they just take the path of least resistance and don't decide to go wandering off on their own. The main difference between those two worlds of course is that Tosterena requires the player to eventually get back onto the critical path to beat it, while Seaside Kingdom can be beaten in any order, it's just a bit less efficient if the player decides to set off on their own.
The advantage of this sort of "subtle critical path", as I call it, is that it gives players the impression of exploring on their own (and in more sophisticated setups, the actual ability to do so too), while minimizing the risk of player's getting lost or bored.
I'm also going to note that one thing that Mario Odyssey has that Yooka-Laylee does not is density, both structurally and mechanically. While spaces are large, there's less dead space between points of interest in Odyssey than in Y-L, and there's also a greater amount of mechanical variety. Between all the various possessions (usually at least one new one per world, each wildly different in control scheme and even genre), the hat's use in combat and platforming, the repeated scattered puzzle mechanics like leading the dog or looking for environmental clues found in pictures, and just general platforming mechanics like spin flowers or launch poles or enemies, it's amazing that the game feels as cohesive as it does. It annoys me that "more variety" is such a big factor (I feel that a game is strongest when it focuses on a single, deep mechanic), but it's hard to argue with the results.
As far as my favorite collectathon-adjacent goes, it would be Sly 2, which has a few collectibles to encourage exploration and speedy navigation, but is mostly mission based. The thing I like about Sly 2's levels is that they are tight and easily navigable while feeling much larger than they actually are. Part of this is due to good use of landmarks and "biomes" (as I call landmarks that are based less off of a single distinct element and more a distinctive art style or set of features), part of it I feel is due to the verticality of the levels, which throw tightropes and arches seemingly willy-nilly over the ground terrain, itself of varied heights. And part, I feel, is an attention to detail that makes the levels feel believable as lived-in spaces, even at their practically scale model size (the creepy castle looms over a tiny village, there are outhouses on the outskirts of the lumber yard, etc.).
Incidentally, when I (attempted) to do an analysis of Yooka-Laylee, I didn't actually find _that_ many problems with it. On paper it looked like the level design it hit all the marks, at least to my eye. The problems I did find with it though were doozies. In ascending order of importance to my mind: 1) Lack of polish, which robbed many interactions and mechanics (especially the retro mini games) of entertainment, 2) Unclear, inconsistent or unexciting power-ups, which tended to be blatantly nothing more than keys to a locked door, or to not solve problems or have interactions that might logically feel they should, and 3) A lack of meaning to the worlds, beyond being video game levels, nothing ever felt like it existed in a coherent world or for any reason other than to be content, which robbed it of emotional investment.
Anyway, I've rambled enough. Thanks for the video, they're always a treat.
I actually love Donkey Kong 64, and it's still one of my top favorite games! I love how there's so much to collect.
The tons of stuff to collect is great, it's just the fact that you constantly have to go back and forth with the tag barrel that makes it so tedious. I think if the game got a remake that was the complete reverse of Super Mario 64 DS, by simply making Donkey Kong the ONLY playable character (or at least allow all collectables to potentially be collected by anyone), I think people would love that a lot more.
@@Lugbzurg Making DK the only playable character would do more harm than good, though.
@@kazoorion7993 The whole reason people get fed up with this game in the first place is the constant flipping between characters to begin with.
@@Lugbzurg Or unifying the collectables in "one color" (and also making the golden bananas collectable by any kong if they are open in the map) and creating a mechanism to switch between the kongs without going all the way back to tag barrel.
Banjo tooie was basically a puzzle game too. That's why you must think of elements in different stages to complete some tasks.
I loved Spyro 2 and 3 as a kid, and Jack and Daxter was the first game I ever finished. But one of the best collecithons is Mario Odyssey. Not only was it packed with moons and side-quests, but the general variety in movement options made the game fun in terms of both collecting everything, as well trying to do everything as quickly and efficiently as possible. I don't speedrun games, but if I started doing so, it would be with Mario Odyssey.
The movement alone was why I tried running it a few times, so good
One of my favourite collectathons is "rocket: robot on wheels" for the N64. Like the title implies, you play as a robot with a wheel instead of legs. One thing that made the game interesting was that the game had no breathing meter because you're playing as a robot, so the watery levels did not play like the ones in other games. However, the protagonist cannot swim, only roll around on the bottom of the water, so some levels used water as an obstacle. The protagonist also doesn't have any arms or hands, instead he has a tractor beam attached to his head. This makes lifting and throwing barrels feel unique. Lastly, the levels in the game had very unique themes, like for example one level is named "food fright" which is a food themed level on the top half, but a cartoonish horror themed level on the bottom half, including an area containing a lake of acid shaped like a stomach. The movement options were very unique as well, as they included these nifty vehicles like a hotdog car and a flying carpet. The collectibles were tickets and tokens to fit the amusement park theme.
This video is overall very good, you have an interesting perspective on the genre.
But my favorite has to be Jak and Daxter.
Here are my reasons
-You don't need to back track to get all of the moves you need to advance.
- The levels felt unique and different from one another.
- each collectables are connected instead of being used as completely different purposes.
- the world overall felt very interesting and it makes me want to explore.
- lovable characters
- doesn't feel like a chore to complete.
I also really liked that you could complete it in one go without backtracking, great stuff :)
thank you for this, i have been trying to find a way to summarize what i like about these games because i wanted to take a shot at making an old school 3d platformer
Yooka Laylee : Hey, I'm a collectathon game with large, open worlds!
Mario Odyssey : *teleports behind you* Nothin' personal kiddo.
Overall this video was pretty good but I have to disagree that having a lot of collectibles littered everywhere. Sure there might have been items everywhere but many of the moons in Odyssey felt tedious and frankly not super interesting. In fact, many of the moons didn’t test the player’s ability to platform, which is a huge misstep for Mario, the face of platforming. In the end I felt like a bunch of the moons in Odyssey could have been cut from the game without any loss of meaningful play.
In BOTW the Koroks work because they are a low level collectible. Imagine getting a spirit orb instead of a Korok. It would make the dungeons feel a bit pointless in my opinion, but maybe that’s just me.
I think it all stems back to people expecting that moons are supposed to be this super valuable, challenging collectible. But that clearly wasn't their goal from the beginning, some are and some aren't. And that's not bad...it's just different from 64/Sunshine/Galaxy's. As I said in the video, I think the main reason for this shift was so that people could find a TON of them and breeze through the levels if they wanted too easily, but also find some good challenge if they're searching for it (they wanted it to be super accessible for kids but also fun for adults too, something Mario has always been good at)
@@snomangaming The problem with that explanation is that it's the *main* collectable in the game. I'm actually with chariot rider on this one. Moons just lying out there in the open make them feel super cheap and its kinda bad when over 20 years of 3d mario platformers have built up an expectation that moons/stars are a reward for platforming challenges .
Yeah what a crazy expectation for moons to be fun and challenging to collect.
What adds to this problem with moons is that a lot of the WAYS in which you collect them stay the same throughout each level which tones down how unique these individual worlds are, which in turn takes away the sense of wonder that you'd get from a game about exploring. Imagine if every country around the world had the exact same culture despite their radically different histories, that's what this feels like, a disconnect between the game play of collecting moons and the worlds that the game is trying to set up. It feels disingenuous
@@snomangaming One thing I was hoping you'd address in the video is scaling the value/frequency of any given collectable against the ease of access to said collectable.
Moons in SMO are a great example of this being done poorly if you ask me; If I get the same reward for ground-pounding a glowing spot I just kinda... found sitting in the open as I do for actually completing an interesting platforming challenge that tests my skill, then the former robs the latter of that sense of satisfaction around which collectathons are built.
Beating bosses, the climaxes to each world that can take upwards of 5 minutes all on their own, should be a big accomplishment, and yet for beating one you get... drumroll please...
3 whole moons at once...
*confetti popper* wheeeee...
You get as much of a reward from sitting in the castle and talking to Toadette for *literal minutes on end* doing nothing but mashing through menus as you do from scouring any of the other kingdoms for every last secret. I don't think that they should have removed *any* of these collectibles, mind you. Rather, I think they should have taken a large percentage of them and turned them into a secondary collectible, one that can be used to unlock other things, but aren't the same as the big rewards that you collect to progress through a kingdom and unlock the next.
My favorite collectathons are DK64, Mario Odyssey, and Banjo-Kazooie. I think I love DK64 while others loathe it because I love the areas to explore and don’t mind backtracking as much. As others. DK64 areas with their great music, interesting areas, and fun challenges all around kept me playing. Definitely better than Banjo-Tooie. Although, the bonus barrels are fun the first time and playing them again are a chore. I am scarred from Beaver Bother in Creepy Castle.
Ive always felt DK64s weirdly dark charm with incredible music to it atmosphere and its personally addicting gameplay always made me not really mind or complain about the backtracking, but if a remake was ever made, they definetly should allow to switch kongs on the fly, as well as change alotta the mini games.
i disagree with your notion that J&D progression was worse for having all collectibles focus in on the main collectible. while giving each collectible a unique purpose makes collecting everything more consistently exciting. making all items relay back into a single kind of progression gate, takes the pressure off of having to collect each individual kind of collectible, stuff like the Rare and DK coins would be a lot less offensive if you could circumnavigate them by simply collecting a few extra Golden Bananas. If someone doesn't like collecting scout flies, or has a difficult time with most of the challenges in a given world, like Precurrsor Basin perhaps, they can overcome that by simply trading in orbs in the hub towns. the result being a more laid-back experience than say Banjo with it's Note Scores, potentially requiring you to repeatedly try levels over again, even when you're done with them.
This reminds me that each time I wake up I'm disappointed because I have a yooka laylee poster hanged up still
Am i the only that loved yooka laylee? :D Not the best game ever but it was amazing in its own way
LoaThunder
I really enjoyed yooka-laylee but it wasn’t as good as I hoped it would be and it really could’ve been made better
@@LoaThunder I think it's very flawed but somewhat enjoyable. I really liked the casino level, everything else ranges from pleasant to very frustrating with most of it just feeling a bit vacant.
@@LoaThunder
It has its moments, but it also has some serious frustrations - the Retro's Arcade games really needed some playtesting, and for the controls to be tightened up. Tying fast movement to the stamina bar rather than letting players Reptile Roll indefinitely is a step backward from the Talon Trot. By the time I got to Capital B and lost a couple of times, I'd already had enough frustration with the game that I just walked away and have never been tempted to come back.
@@LoaThunder I loved it too. Playtonic's just havign a rough star and slowly getting their sh1t together. A bit too slowly if you ask me.
Spongebob Squarepants Battle for Bikini Bottom is one of the best I've played. It gives you development images to unlock after completing the game.
Jason Friend and it stayed faithful to the cartoon
I really liked it but it has a lot of paywalls near at the end of the game, which is kinda frustrating. Banjo Kazooie has a quite high amount of collectables required to finish, but it is clear what is needed to go through, on Spongebob, the later levels always surprise you requiring a lot of shiny things (money) to enter requiring backtrack. Still it is a fun game and I played last month.
Backtrack I dont find bad as many people point out if is used to discover new things (being like metroidvanias or not), but on Spongebob, you have to backtrack just to gather money to enter the later sections and this is annoying.
@@lordeilluminati while I agree with you, the taxi mechanic in the game levels this out some
@@duckstroyer626The problem is not exactly having to traverse through the same path again because as you mentioned, it is very easy to jump acros levels, you can press start and immediately teleport to what you want to go. Problem is that the process of farming money is very annoying, you have to find the best way to gain money and repeat again and again until another paywall appears and you have to do the same over and over.
And the noise when you pick the shiny things is extremely annoying
I feel you are generalizing your negative feelings towards DK64 a bit too much. It was flawed, but it was still an excellent Rare game through and through.
Great video!
My top 3 collectathons are:
1. Spyro the Dragon
2. Donkey Kong 64
3. Jak & Daxter
I have not played Banjo Kazooie yet ;)
Metrooiid
Play both banjo kazooie games, man, they are great! And pay close attention to the soundtrack because it’s really good. I feel like the soundtrack is really underrated when people talk about the game itself
Also, my favorite game of all time is jak and daxter, I love how smooth and efficiently you can complete the levels. The movement is so slick, the collectables are so well placed, the music is so enthralling, the story is simple yet satisfying and the lines are so quoteable. I’ll never forget the opening speech, it’s easily my favorite line in all of video gaming
I honestly really like DK64; i'm not really too bothered by having to switch kongs. There are a few instances in the game that were a bit tedious and obnoxious because of that and some other things, but for the most part I don't get people's problems with it.
I haven't finished many collectathons, having only finished Banjo-Kazooie, Mario Odyssey, and DK64, and only having played Banjo-Tooie outside of that, but I really enjoyed each lf them and I'm always excited to try more of them out. It's probably my favorite genre, all things considered.
I like an element of backtracking in my collect-a-thons. If I can just enter a level, collect everything, and leave, never to return, it feels almost like that level is wasted. I know other people feel differently, but there are ways to do it that are better than others. For instance, if the backtracking is not just a checklist of "go everywhere again," but you have to go back in a different order and a different number of times for each level. Perhaps for story reasons.
"Each location feels like a ride at an amusement park". Oh, hell yes! I couldn't have said it better myself, Banjo-Kazooie was (and still is) one of the best games ever made. Because of its smooth animations and colorful graphics, it was the first game (from N64 and PSX era) that made me forget that every game back then had its base on ugly polygons. Most 3D platformers back then just felt... so empty, like ghost towns, but not Banjo-Kazooie, oh no! This one had animations everywhere, random objects like buckets, chests or even toilets with eyes, movement, even talking ffs! even the power ups were animated and talking sometimes. Everything, absolutely everything in the game had its own personality, I've never seen any other game since then that pays this much attention to details and I guess I never will. For me, the true masterpiece for the N64.
Yooka Laylee would like a word...
I know it isn't a collectathon in most people's eyes, but I think Ratchet & Clank Future gets so many things right. Each thing you collect has a different yet equally relevant use (Bolts let you buy weapons, Raritanium lets you upgrade your weapons, Zoni let you upgrade your ship, etc.). Also, the Insomniac Museum is a completionist's dream!
I normally don't enjoy this type of game as I don't want to feel like I have to collect items to get through the game. But I actually enjoyed doing it in Ratchet and Clank.
Ratchet & Clank games have way more to offer than just running around collecting shit, that's why.
Excellent video and great perspective. I've really enjoyed all of your videos, but they get better every time.
I need to play more collectathon. :O I love DK64, it's one of my favorite game so i would be surprised to play banjo.
I loved Banjo-Tooie. I thought the fact that the Jiggies were so difficult to collect made it that much more satisfying to collect each one. Also, the minimum number to complete the game was just 70 out of 90, so you didn't have to get the toughest ones. Unlike in Banjo-Kazooie, Rare made sure that everything you accomplished toward an objective remained complete when you exited a world or reset the game.
I feel like your comment about how only certain Kongs can take certain items is a detriment. Earlier you explain how the items being spread around the level can help people figure out if they've been there before. Since the different Kongs can do different things, isn't it important that there are multiple types of collectibles to grab so you can tell which Kongs have or haven't been there?
All together I think DK64 could have done that better, by putting collectibles ONLY in places where the specific Kongs were going to actually use their particular skills. Like why put Tiny Kong's bananas or coins near Chunky/Lanky Kong things, but I liked that they had a way to check your progress on each character like that.
Yeah I agree with that, they did too much of putting all the other colors in the same places. I've already talked DK64 to death in my video on it so I didn't want to tread too much of the same ground :)
They probably could have improved on what they already had by implementing "generic" collectibles (bananas and stuff) that could be picked up by any Kong. Only the areas that demanded the skills of a specific Kong would use the collectibles for that Kong. Thus, less backtracking, and an easier way to signal which Kong you would need in a new area.
It's actually probably a good thing that they didn't make _all_ the collectibles generic. Otherwise, you'd explore a place, find out you need a different Kong, and then forget to come back because you'd already collected all the bananas leading that direction. But making all the collectibles Kong-specific might not have been the best approach, either.
I think Odyssey and Hat in Time really mastered each of their respective take on collectahons. While Odyssey is big and has loads of collectables, they have a good reason to be collected (like progressing with moons, getting outfits with purple coins, other outfits with normal coins and even additional health for normal coins), and the mixup with the capturing of enemies means the games doesn't get stale and boring even if you shoot for the 100%, which is optional for people who want to enjoy the game and get all "big" content (additional levels only need up to 500 moons), but is great if you really WANT to gather each and every single moon. You really don't have to, but for those who think it's fun, it's a long adventure.
On the other side, Hat makes for a speedy game with tight mechanics that you probably finish in around 10h the first time around without DLCs and still collect almost everything and do every achievement, for when you want a short, but great experience without having to collect for several dozen hours.
I loved dk64. Everybody complains about to collect every coin and colored banana you need to change kongs 3 times. Just collect as many bananas and coins as you need 🙄 its not that much to progress
Damn, great breakdown. You put feelings I've always had but never stopped to analyze into words.
Donkey Kong 64 largely disliked? Wow.. I mean.. I dunno why the dialogue has shifted so much in recent years but I've always liked DK64 and I feel liek so many always have. I think it's pretty well agreed Banjo is better but Idk... is DK really largely disliked? is my perception just warped?
I honestly like Banjo-Tooie more than its predecessor, but you're spot on about the notes and how they're too condensed. I felt like Rare was overcompensating for the sins of DK64.
That said, it really amazed me when I finally played Banjo-Tooie for the first time last year. It felt like such a better version of DK64 that it was staggering. Managing multiple characters better (though not perfect), having more reasonable amounts of collectibles, and having mini-games that didn't make me want to tear my hair out. I wouldn't have believed such a thing possible from that time period having grown up with DK64, but damn if Tooie didn't pull it off.
I liked DK 64...haven't played it as an adult though. Guess it's better if I leave those positive memories alone and intact :D
It's still fun, only a little overwhelming and occasionally frustrating...
I think it is when they fill you with a sense of Pride and Accomplishment.
I don't see enough people mentioning Battle For Bikini Bottom and it makes me sad.
Now that you mention it, you're right. It's a great collectathon, one of the best overall licensed games, and the best SpongeBob game out there.
Sadly, never played it.
PenguinPandaZero I literally see people talking about it all the time.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 In my defense, when I posed this comment, I saw none on this particular video. I'm not sure how it is now.
I guess it's not a popular opinion, but I truly do still love DK64. picked it up recently and I still love it.Even as a kid, you move fast enough for me and I never feel like the levels get old. I love how interconnected everything it, seeing the ghosts of bannanas to know you'll get to explore again there as lanky or diddy. If you cut out some of the bonus barrels that were more coding issue than design issue, LOOKING AT YOU BEAVER BOTHER, it'd honestly be top 5 easily. it's still top 10 for me though, I love coming back to it occasionally to do an almost 101%. sometimes 101%. but seriously, screw like 3 bonus barrels in particular.
Amen, I as well love the weirdly dark charm and atmoshphere the game has, as well as the absolutely phenomenal soundtrack, and I never really personally found the many collectables, backtracking, and movements to be bothersome(in fact all the kongs move smoothly and pretty quick with there moveset other than Chunky). Tho if the game is to ever recive a remake I DEFINETLY think they should allow instant kong swapping, better/improved mini games, more to the hub world, and keep the monkey smash multiplayer and add online to it. Would love to see all of Grants OST in remade in the modern gaming gen, tho if the OST stays the exact same im 1000% fine with that as well, one of my top 5 gaming OST of all time.
That's awesome timing! I'm in the middle of building a (very) small game for a university course and I was struggling a bit with the "collectable stuff"- part. Thank you so much, you've given me a few great ideas to work with :)!
I think my favorite collectathon is Spyro 3 with a wide variety of challenges and the extra playable characters are a blast of course I love all the classic Spyro trilogy, now if only I had w ps4 to play the reignited trilogy
Donkey Kong 64 is one of the best. Period!
I agree
respectfully disagree. I found its collectibles to be tedious & exhausting. Going for 100% truly just feels like a chore imo
DK 64 is one of my favorite games, but it definitely has its flaws. The backtracking with the different Kongs can be a bit much. You have to do some weirdly specific stuff in order to beat the game. They reuse minigames a lot, some of which are frustrating like Beaver Bother. Not to say that bigger is always better, but I really do enjoy DK64's large worlds. There is a lot to explore on a first play-through.
IssyCoonify
I really like DK64 the soundtrack was really good but boss battles were really lacking
It has a lot of flaws, but the things it got right were amazing.
If only they had a better system than the tag barrel for switching kongs. I think most of the issues stems from this clunky mechanic.
To me, what makes these kinds of games fun isn't me collecting things, it's the journey to collect them, and the obstacles that must be overcome. I think that's what a lot of people miss whether they criticize of defend collectahons.
The Pokerap reference caught me completely off-guard and just killed me. A+ timing
Jak and Daxter did it perfectly because it doesn't feel finished unless you collect everything and it's never a chore.
Is it weird to like Banjo-Tooie more but recognize Banjo-Kazooie as the real masterpiece of collectathon's?
Not at all! I know lots of people prefer the massiveness of Tooie, different strokes :)
Probably because of the multiplayer in Tooie. As an adult I like Kazooie more than Tooie because it's not too big but I have so many good memories of playing the Tower of Tragedy and shootout games with my brother and neighbors in Tooie growing up.
I know it's not very well designed, but I have a ton of nostalgia for Donkey Kong 64. Also If you Mario Odyssey I think it's a fantastic example. It made me want to 100% and no game has ever made me want to do that. The world's are so fun and movement is lighting quick. Great content as usual Snoman!
The funny thing is, as a kid I liked Banjo Tooie better than Kazooie, but upon replaying the games as an adult, I liked Kazooie better because the gameplay was more face-paced and engaging, and the levels were in more manageable chunks. I'll never forget the fact that I just got straight up lost in Glitter Gulch Mine looking for one of the landmarks to find a certain jiggy.
Yeah, the same happened to me basically. I think Tooie is really fun to play through once, but after that it becomes a slog, while Kazooie is evergreen (imo at least)
Really good video! I have to say that I absolutely loved collecting and completing the Spyro Reignited Trilogy. They just made collecting everything so satisfying in my opinion. I did wish the other two games followed Spyro 2's example of having some little activities post-game to unlock rewatching old cutscenes.
Also, the way they updated Sparx to point you in the direction of gems you missed is extremely helpful and hope more games follow that mechanic
Many of the points you talk about in the video are why I never brought myself to finish Jak and Daxter. I wouldn't call it a bad game by any means, but there were a lot of design choices that hindered my experience.
Probably the biggest thing that bugged me was the lack of landmarks in most of the stages. Like, for as much the environments in Yooka Laylee (and in some levels of Tooie) blend in with each other, I could usually get a decent idea of where I was. In Jak, I often found myself stumbling around the levels trying to figure out where the heck I even was. The swamp level in particular has practically no unique set pieces at all, it's ridiculous. The levels also tend to go for a "realistic" sort of look, and while this is great for immersion (Jak is a technologically impressive game with how it handles loading times for sure), it also causes some levels to be drab and forgettable. Exploration is the crux of collectathons, and when the act of exploring is confusing, then the rest is naturally going to fall apart.
I have a few other issues as well. While I don't think a dozen fast movement techniques is really essential for a game like Jak due to how its levels are designed, I do think he's still too slow regardless. It feels like I was only just barely making most jumps. I don't think level design where you're constantly cutting it close is very satisfying, especially in a game that's designed like this. And then there's your point about all the collectibles leading to the same main collectible, which robs those side collectibles of the value they could've had. I think that would be much more suited for a game like Super Mario 64, where half the fun comes from exploring your movement options.
Great video. I also completely agree about Banjo Kazooie requiring too many Jiggies to finish the game. You only need 90% of Notes to access Gruntilda, so why isn't it the same ratio for the Jiggies? It feels very arbitrary in that regard, and it makes me wonder if it's only there because the devs didn't want you to be able to skip any levels--which is a shame, because I think it would've been incredibly interesting if you were allowed to. The vast majority of players are going to go into every level at least once on their first playthrough regardless of the end requirements anyway.
Great video. At first, I wasn't able to fully understand why I love Collectathons games until you said everything that needed to be said.
I personally was always a fan of the LEGO games. Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc
Everything is destroyable which is really satisfying and also rewards you with precious coins