I got distracted by chat, but I wanted to say in the beginning that errata-ing cards wasn't an option, because they aren't going to change game rules. But let me know what you guys think of these! Not sure if I'll keep doing Twitch highlights but if they do well enough I could see doing them more often
The Over Trigger hit on Vision's list is...complicated. In terms of competitive health, it doesn't take months upon months of testing and tournaments to understand that they're objectively bad for Premium and D. No amount of time given will make players "warm up" or acclimate to them, it'll just make players give up on Bushiroad listening to legit concerns. They're insanely powerful 1-ofs that end the opponent's turn if revealed that also go +1, ala Maxx C in Yu-Gi-Oh. (Welcome to why the TCG had the brains to ban that card. And yes, I'm aware that *technically* Maxx C would break even at bare minimum.) But you're absolutely right that it's too early for them to reasonably be banned, as harmful as they may be. They haven't been out long, and it'd be massive egg on Bushiroad's face if they went to those measures so soon. Plus, they gotta sell eventual reprints of those Overs first. They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.
I personally love this banlist because it gives other unsung clans like Royal Paladin, Dimension Police, Tachikaze, Gear Chronicle a chance to shine in the P format and lengthens the game a bit more.
Personally, I don't think PM needs any significant hits outside of Songster. Harri's a good deck, yes, but a big part of that is mostly due to it having a Denial Griffin counter to the infinite loop decks, so it's less that "Harri is good in spite of loop decks", and more that "Harri is good _because_ it can answer loop decks". The stage stuff is just icing on the cake next to that. Nerfing the clan even further just feels like kicking the can down the road, because it opens the floodgates to nerfing any and every deck that can do combos. Why not ban the GB8s for GP and SB that can do near-infinite loops? Why not ban Greed Shade and/or Columbard? Why not ban Zoa? Why not ban Chronovisor Heritage? Okay, that last one's a bit of a stretch, I admit, but I can imagine someone at some point whining about getting extra turns, and I can imagine GC, time leap, and ZTB being tier 1 again if we just keep banning the next best decks. My point is, there's always gonna be decks that perform better than others, but I don't think we necessarily have to nerf them unless they're overwhelmingly dominant and insurmountable in the meta, like the current tier 1 decks. Otherwise, you just end up with a conga line mentality of, "okay, so which deck are we gonna hit _now?",_ and that's how Vanguard will end up with a YGO-style mammoth banlist that we honestly don't need.
Since Overtriggers are still new and outright banning them would probably cause outrage among people who've invested in them, I would agree with Solemn about just giving them an errata to have the trigger only give +10k. They'd still have their overpowered effects but at least they don't outright end turns when damage checked and don't make guard restricted attacks easily unblockable.
First off, the Howam ban is ultra pointless with Heal Guardians coming into the game. Other than that, I honestly feel like Premium is so relatively undiscovered that the only things that should be hit are Gastille, Nue, and the meme stand/loop decks. Gastille absolutely needs to be at 0; Nue I think can be explored at 1 (either Nue or Hyuga at 1) then banned if it's still too much; and the stand decks I'm not too sure. I'd explore that meta before hitting anything else honestly. Don't really have an opinion on Overtriggers in any format, if the format is b03 then who cares honestly.
Im just honestly surprised that dolls and harri was needed to be hit as this banlist portrays. But the reasons are very understandable as well. If it's for the best, no complains.... i guess lol.
Personally I agree about the OT banning. The draconic empire one is just too busted, it can easily win you the game when checked. And they can completely stall a turn when checked during dmg.
I got distracted by chat, but I wanted to say in the beginning that errata-ing cards wasn't an option, because they aren't going to change game rules.
But let me know what you guys think of these! Not sure if I'll keep doing Twitch highlights but if they do well enough I could see doing them more often
List had me the big mad as can be seen in the thread, mostly due to how quick to ban the list is on many “problem” cards
"We don't even know what Reijy does yet" take me back...
😔😔
I'm half convinced that Bushi purposely made Reijy dogshit just so they wouldn't have another reason to ban Gastille. They did Blade Wings so dirty...
The Over Trigger hit on Vision's list is...complicated.
In terms of competitive health, it doesn't take months upon months of testing and tournaments to understand that they're objectively bad for Premium and D. No amount of time given will make players "warm up" or acclimate to them, it'll just make players give up on Bushiroad listening to legit concerns. They're insanely powerful 1-ofs that end the opponent's turn if revealed that also go +1, ala Maxx C in Yu-Gi-Oh. (Welcome to why the TCG had the brains to ban that card. And yes, I'm aware that *technically* Maxx C would break even at bare minimum.)
But you're absolutely right that it's too early for them to reasonably be banned, as harmful as they may be. They haven't been out long, and it'd be massive egg on Bushiroad's face if they went to those measures so soon. Plus, they gotta sell eventual reprints of those Overs first. They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Erata on Stand:
Stand trigger cannot stand the attacking unit
I personally love this banlist because it gives other unsung clans like Royal Paladin, Dimension Police, Tachikaze, Gear Chronicle a chance to shine in the P format and lengthens the game a bit more.
What about PBO? Lol it actually managed to beat a few of the clans you mentioned through chainrancor and D support
how fucked is this game that we need a custom banlist , best company with the best decisions
From what it seems, at this time, it seemed the tournament was really nearly as well designed or thought of as it could have and should have been?
Personally, I don't think PM needs any significant hits outside of Songster. Harri's a good deck, yes, but a big part of that is mostly due to it having a Denial Griffin counter to the infinite loop decks, so it's less that "Harri is good in spite of loop decks", and more that "Harri is good _because_ it can answer loop decks". The stage stuff is just icing on the cake next to that. Nerfing the clan even further just feels like kicking the can down the road, because it opens the floodgates to nerfing any and every deck that can do combos. Why not ban the GB8s for GP and SB that can do near-infinite loops? Why not ban Greed Shade and/or Columbard? Why not ban Zoa? Why not ban Chronovisor Heritage? Okay, that last one's a bit of a stretch, I admit, but I can imagine someone at some point whining about getting extra turns, and I can imagine GC, time leap, and ZTB being tier 1 again if we just keep banning the next best decks.
My point is, there's always gonna be decks that perform better than others, but I don't think we necessarily have to nerf them unless they're overwhelmingly dominant and insurmountable in the meta, like the current tier 1 decks. Otherwise, you just end up with a conga line mentality of, "okay, so which deck are we gonna hit _now?",_ and that's how Vanguard will end up with a YGO-style mammoth banlist that we honestly don't need.
Since Overtriggers are still new and outright banning them would probably cause outrage among people who've invested in them, I would agree with Solemn about just giving them an errata to have the trigger only give +10k. They'd still have their overpowered effects but at least they don't outright end turns when damage checked and don't make guard restricted attacks easily unblockable.
Just going to say, anything that cancels auto abilities of guardians is OP to the max. Also, assassin should be at 0.
First off, the Howam ban is ultra pointless with Heal Guardians coming into the game. Other than that, I honestly feel like Premium is so relatively undiscovered that the only things that should be hit are Gastille, Nue, and the meme stand/loop decks. Gastille absolutely needs to be at 0; Nue I think can be explored at 1 (either Nue or Hyuga at 1) then banned if it's still too much; and the stand decks I'm not too sure. I'd explore that meta before hitting anything else honestly. Don't really have an opinion on Overtriggers in any format, if the format is b03 then who cares honestly.
Im just honestly surprised that dolls and harri was needed to be hit as this banlist portrays. But the reasons are very understandable as well. If it's for the best, no complains.... i guess lol.
Personally I agree about the OT banning. The draconic empire one is just too busted, it can easily win you the game when checked. And they can completely stall a turn when checked during dmg.
HAHAHAHA REIJY