Who is the greatest poker player of all time? | Liv Boeree and Lex Fridman
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ส.ค. 2022
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Liv Boeree: Poker, Gam...
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Liv Boeree is a poker champion and science educator on topics of game theory, physics, complexity, and life.
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Thumbnail of Daniel Negreanu... zero mention of him as the GOAT. Hilarious.
He's the best imo
He's just the most prevalent on TH-cam, so he gets the thumbnails
Saved me 4 minutes. Thank you.
watching his 2022 wsop run was painful haha
The peoples champ
"No one's made me sweat harder than Phil Ivey"
Hang on now
We're still talking about poker right 🤣
Pause.
I feel like if you take into account all three main formats of poker (cash, tourney, online), it has to be Ivey. He is one of the few who is truly great at all three.
I think it is Brunson. Only because of longevity - he was at or near the very top for more than 50 years.
If Ivey is still where he is today 20 or 30 years on, I would say Ivey.
I played poker for a lot of years and a couple of them as my full time job. I know for a fact one thing. There are math players and there are gut players, but at the end of the day, no one can ever deny that Juanda had twips
It aint be full time Job if you grind in your Mums Basement.
What is twips?
Comment of the year
Only the TH-cam elite will get this brilliant comment.
Great guest! As an avid Poker player loved seeing this, Liv is cool too!
Mike Postle - Guy could read his opponents hand like no oyher.
He's a GOD!!!
He's like a cheater almost! So impressive
😆
Ability to manipulate etc etc.. I'd like to hear her take on this, or go into detail about some of her own experiences. I know she has some, a poker player who says something like that is surely observing everything about themselves and their experiences. Their input vs outcome. And poker is the perfect game to examine things like minds influence on outcome, or influence on probability.. personally, I think Phil knows how to get in tune with his optimal state, where he 'knows' what he will do, and so much so that there's no room for doubt. This is a very powerful place to be, especially when you're a master at what you're doing.
Phil Ivey is in the running and a real argument to be made for Daniel Negreanu and Hellmuth. I love me some Tom Dwan but that's just because he plays so aggressive with so many different hands and he's a lot of fun to watch.
Phil Hellmuth is the greatest tournament player since Stewie. Daniel is the greatest reader of hands. Ivey is a stone cold killer
I've read (listened) to Phil's book and yes it is about positivity and it's actually a good read. I went into it more than a little skeptical.
Can you share the name of the book that they are referencing please?
@@migaeldannhauser #Positivity You Are Always in the Right Place at the Right Time by Phil Hellmuth and also his Autobiography. Both are good reads IMHO
"You've changed your shirt, Mr. Bond. I hope that our little game has not caused you to perspire."
Casino royale: awesome movie. Although the last poker hand was ridiculous.
@@BradleyCoopertest as mathematically likely as getting struck by lightning right after winning the lottery
@@superdoonz1 LOL, exactly.
I think there should be an appreciation for players like Hellmuth and Dnegs for being able to remain good and prominent after so many years past the start of their fame. The game has evolved so much that many of the old timers dropped off. Staying good for this long really says something.
Poker hasn't evolved much at all. It is just that nowadays there are much more written and published poker theory than 30 or 50 years ago. Mathematics was definitely used in poker before as well, it is just that there were no fancy scientific words for it.
Therefore, 50 years ago Doyle Brunson was holding, idk, KJ and, faced with a three bet, calculating whether if it pays off for him in the long run to call and see the flop. Three years ago, Justin Bonomo was holding the same hand at the same spot and calculating the reverse implied odds of KJ, which is the exact same thing, only with a different name. Or, 50 years ago Chip Reese held AK out of position and missed the flop, and was thinking how much he should bet to scare the opponent off. Garret Adelstain was doing the exact same thing two years ago, only he calls it "the reverse float". And so on and so on.
The point is - older players are not dropping off because the game became incomprehensible for them. They are dropping off because, well, they are getting old. The brain, the quickness of thought process, the stamina, the concentration are not what they used to be. Just like 41 old Federer is not losing because tennis evolved, he is losing because his body is not able to do things it did 15 years ago. It is as simple as that.
In poker, the select group of "old gen" players like, of course, Brunson, Hellmuth, Negreanu, Ivey and so on...are still able to hold their own and often prevail against the new gen despite the latter being armed with range charts and training software. Why? Because they know all that stuff as well, they just didn't have fancy names for it back in the day.
@@andro99991 brunson was good not so much as time went on just sat in good games kinda like dan Bilzerian but doyle was good mathematically making a more planned strat, dan was about gameflow i think more and adjusting readjusting having people readjust heavily to him and it pay off, Negreanu i thinks good pretty much around the board can switch it up, ivey i think is feel player that ends up using good math and adjusting readjusting, and hellmuth i dunno guess a very rigid in way feel player that some how made it work mainly tournaments but likely sits in good cash games and people maybe let their ego get in way someones making mistakes vs him.
yh agree the brain thing sort of but alot poker isnt really fluid intelligence its pattern recognition and logic and mainly tilt control management mental game and staying focused enough sitting in good games, most the money comes from pure fish or maniacs gamblers or beginners or people on tilt, not from regulars or other poker players as even if you have an edge of a regular or other poker player its not necessarily fat enough edge to account for the rake and the houses cut so no one wins even if technically you are beating them for a clip if it not fat enough edge (also get weird scenario where 1 players strategy vs others far better than the others and he adjust readjusts vs that person better than other way and has fat edge but.... that player when tilt monkey tilts hard and donates any edge had over the reg right on back as player 2 tilts too but not as hard when does so end up similar scenario either breakeven or losing to rake or someone with a slight meagre edge over the other) point is lot poker is just patience and mental game, a really stupid simplified strat thats easy to counter exploit and doesnt even adjust for opponents will do you just fine (if dont tilt) if sit in good games tables (will you be beating the game for highest clip no not at all but you will be beating it for smidge).
pokers marketed pushed as a skill game and you betting against other players which is true to a degree but think lotta people gamblers poker players forget quite how much money goes off the table every hr or 100 hands from each players stack straight into the house casinos pocket..., its alot even when rake is.... low.... so theres quite large chunk recreational or poker players that arent even losing cause there bad there beating the pool but there not beating the pool or other players by enough to be ahead.
its mainly a luck game with a skill component in there but its marginally a skill game, the house makes it less of a skill game cause rake does impact strategy to a degree depending what the cut is, and think anything that interferes with how you play like that isnt great, less issue in tournaments but is or can be issue certain cash games depending structure etc with how effects strategy, and tournaments i imagine are predominantly luck not played lot them as there slow boring and full ring so hate slow pace of play, but you are kinda your always short past certain stage even when your leading or ahead and its like how much edge can you really get with shallow stacks on others and then theres the yh i just feel like theres gotta be lotta luck in tournies and so much shit match ups setups coolers whatever have to go your way, and its less dynamic i think shorter you are in the strat you can implement cause tourny life etc etc its like cant really fight the deck and stacks in same way or make people do stuff vs you in same way as can in cash.
i think they should add make more poker games though 100% and also least online get rid speed zoom formats particularly for no limit holdem as i dont think it makes a good zoom format poker game the no limit structure and how tight can get away playing holdem makes it bit of rake trap rake machine for the site operator. omaha its less an issue cause its pot limit etc more multiway hands equities being closer pre etc etc makes it fine as zoom game but holdem as zoom games just pretty shit, great for the site though.
they should also put table cap on so not fuckload multitablers on reg tables as that kills game table quality alot and bad for ecosystem longterm and even shorterm, plus tanking multitablers that time out alot suck balls, kills the vibe.
The best poker player isn’t a tournament player. Every professional poker player knows this.
I'd go another step. Tournament poker vs cash games poker are two different kettles of fish and I agree that cash games are all about post flop and tournaments are pre flop mostly.
@@SCBiscuit13 Agreed. You could argue greatest tournament player and greatest cash game player. They're using completely different strategies.
Best Tournament player is Daniel Negreanu. I am not too familiar with cash poker, but I bet Phil Ivey would be up there.
Idk this Addamo kid is nasty
@@OGecalien The score is kept in $
why is daniel negreanu in the thumnail when isnt even mentioned in the clip？
Gotta watch Doug Polks videos about this topic. I think they handeled it exhaustively.
Those two really get along
And then they fuuuuurnished the house
Daniel Negreanu hands down. When I was about 10-13 years old I was obsessed with Texas hold em. I watched the tournaments religiously and for that age I was an absolute card shark. Daniel was by far the player that caught my attention the most and I have followed him through the years and watched him win multiple championships and tournaments. Daniels the GOAT in my book.
did you even see what happened when he sat down vs doug polk for 25k hands at 200/400? lol He's so far from greatest it's insane anyone could believe that.
I mean I haven't followed it in years so I was definitely just reliving a memory their lol I do believe he was at least dubbed best of the decade.
After Polk spanked Daniel, Daniel indicated that he was a massive underdog and didn't expect to win.
Hellmuth's career is THE example of emotional "Tilting" in poker, which can't be quantified but definitively plays a factor at the table. His bitch boy attitude definitely has an effect on opponents as well as himself, especially when players turn the tables on him and dog cuss and trash talk him as much as he does to other players. There are numerous examples of both and it's absolute proof that poker will Never be just about the math, the percentages, it's always going to have a big human element to it, which is why it's great sport.
I love the fact that you got Liv in here. Thanks Lex!
Hard to call really. Prime Tom Dwan was probably my favourite, plus he sparred and messed with Helmouth often lol
the durrr days were amazing to watch live, any time durrr, isildur, jungleman, ivey, antonious were playing, I was watching. Huge stakes, record breaking pots every week. some of the sickest plo and nlhe ive ever seen
It is impressive how some people are so good. It’s a mind game but also mathematical. Takes practice like anything but some are just insanely good. You have the same chances to get a good or bad hand, then just get sort of lucky taking a risk, but they will beat you bad they just have a highest level of skill and understanding.
Nobody is inherently good at poker, it’s about learning the rules and applying practice. Some will learn faster than others but all the top guys and girls have played the game over and over.
@@megaskyburst Absolutely like I said it takes practice. It is just impressive how some people dominate like it’s a joke to them.
Phil Helmuth is the best and if he was humble and polite then I think most people would agree. Just take your ego out of the game and look at his record and compare.
Mount Rushmore:
-Stu Unger
-Phil Ivey
-Doyle Brunson
-Chip Reese
Stu Ungar is no where near GOAT status. The commercials have indoctrinated you that he is actually good. He wasn't. Timofey Kuznetsov has to be in there
Phil Hellmuth's Positivity is the first book I read this year, It was a good book.
1. Phil Ivey (cashgames)
1. Stu Ungar (tournaments)
3. Negreanu
4. Davidi Kitai (if you don’t know him, then you should look him up. Easily one of the best tournament players of the last decade. Being the best player isn’t about winning the most prize money, if that was the case, the top 10 would be filled with one hit wonders and multi millionaires who got lucky in 1million dollar buy in tournaments, Davidi is in a league of his own when it comes to making reads)
5. Phil Helmuth
Everyone knows Jennifer tilly is #1
Tom Dwan. He is wild
I’m sure Igor isn’t pleased to here nobody has made her sweat like Ivey 😂
Much love Liv
Eh I feel like the difference is so tiny between great players these days that I can't really see anyone being clearly the best. In holdem at least, I think the game has been figured out and top players have hit the skill ceiling. I feel like it's pretty well just straight math these days and the game seems pretty much entirely figured out. The boom of popularity, knowledge and resources in the last few decades kinda killed it. I would've loved to play Holdem in a pre internet age. Pros are clawing at each other for the tiniest of tiniest edges in Holdem.
I think Ivey is up there not only being one of the great poker players but also one of the great gamblers
He’s the best ever.
There is a difference between cash game players and tournament players. Hellmuth for tournament Dwan for cash
Man , my buddy introduce me his gig watching pokers tournament today , and this popped out too , i saw him , great info tho 👌🃏🏦
Best cash game player: Garrett Adelstein
Best holdem tournament player: Phil Hellmuth Jr.
Best reader: Daniel Negreanu
Most intimidating player: Phil Ivey
Top poker ambassador: Mike Sexton
Poker legend: Doyle Brunson
Top poker comedian/commentator: Norman Chad
Most beautiful poker player: Reply by commenting
Top poker commentator: Gabe Kaplan
@@samzhao2261 that's right.
Playing with any human opponents on any kind of games with random element inevitably brake optimization.
because your opponents know( or can guess with high probability) you move and hands and they can counter it.
then, the optimization is no longer " optimized".
Phil Ivey is the best Poker player overall but when it comes to Live Tournaments with big and soft fields, I would bet my money on Phil Hellmuth.
Yes you gotta give props to Phil for being smart enough to know that poker success is relative to the opponents you have. His patience, low level, simple approach to the game is actually makes him succeed. Put against real poker players of skill he gets consistently crushed, but put him in an environment of recreational subpart players and he will navigate the field better than most. No need for fancy plays, just pure patience while people kamikaze and you exploit their misakes and reap the rewards is actually pretty effective. In terms of pure skill, I wouldn't even rate Hellmuth in the top 100 tournament players, but his style is good enough to keep him profitable and around for the long term, so gotta give him props for that.
Chip Reese. after him and in no order, Doug Polk, Daniel Cates, Stu Ungar, Linus Loeliger, probably quite a few I'm missing. Cash game players can play tournaments rather easily, it's not the same vice versa for many that are considered "great"
@gjaegreag Jonas Mols, and Timofey Kuznetsov are def two names I should have probably included.
Hellmuth is probably the best large multi table tournament player but he’s not an elite deep stack cash game player
Niklas Heinecker "Ragen70" was also an endboss in several games
Chip Reese I agree on wholeheartedly but Doug Polk lmao not even top 100 all time imo . Stu Ungar had a photographic memory so that helps. Chip Reese said he's favourite player and most competitive was Phil Ivey and Phil said he's idol of poker is Chip lol
My favourite will always be Daniel Negreanu (back in the day he was versatile and unpredictable). He has fallen short since
Actually DNegs poker play is way stronger now than before, because he now embraces poker solvers + assistance from strong poker coaches.
More like everyone else got better and the old poker pros refused to keep up.
@@damingalam8809 Agreed, I was thinking of him back in 2017...
He was eventually able to reinvent himself
I also stopped following the pro scene several years ago
Those older players will forever be the most entertaining to watch by far. Not that I watch it anymore either. High Stakes Poker seasons 1-4 is the best poker ever shown on TV. Pure entertainment & with 2 great hosts... Nowadays and for quite some time it's as dull as ditch water watching all those NPCs.
“When he looks you in the eye…..No one has made me sweat harder than Phil Ivey” 😂
Lex as computer-generated computer
Predictably all the names that get mentioned in the comments are old school live-players or people who have viral clips of them making some sick play. Just gonna give a mention of two actual GOATs of the game: LLinusLLove and BERRI SWEET. Berri might be the best/most talented player ever, but few people know this, in part because his name isn't public, but he has been absolutely dominating several games for close to a decade.
Negreanu, hellmuth and all these other big names ain't got nothing on those guys
They get mention because they have the highest earnings/bracelets in history
TT is better than berri imho
Phil Ivey. Nuff said
Ivey, Negreanu and Brunson. Popstars
Live? Doyle and Ivey. End of Story. Ivey extremly strong in 7 card stud if not mistaken. Doyle always up in HSP. oh and i forgot Antonius as the Endboss of HU Fixed Limit
Dang I thought Dan Bilzerian was the best poker player ever 😂
Best/worst pathological liar on social media.
The answer is Phil Ivey. Right behind is Negreanu.
Stephen Chidwick needs an honorable mention. Especially best tournament player ever
Ellix powers undeniably
Phil Ivey and Patrick Antonious have two of the coldest poker faces ever...
Lol Phil Hellmuth writing a book on positivity is pretty damn funny. But he definitely is one of the best, I think I'd have to go with Daniel Negreanu.
Nice, but lex your a tennis player, where is Agassi?? Or Novak??
Mount Rushmore of Poker:
Doyle
Hellmuth
Negreanu
Ivey
HM: Chan & Antonio
I'm 100% convinced that Lex has basketball shorts on and just wears the dress shirt and suit jacket for his podcast
“Ability to manipulate the things the way you want them to go.” Liv Boeree
An amazing in the spur of the moment statement Liv! Maybe you are already aware of the now dated study at Princeton as part of the ‘Mind Matter Interaction Research’ programme otherwise known as PEAR. IMHO this can create an awesome podcast on the subject of human consciousness. I personally believe the research should be paralleled in the light of Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose’s ‘Orchestrated objective reduction’ theory.
The Primacy of consciousness - Interview with Brenda Dunne: th-cam.com/video/9Q9y0KyNxSA/w-d-xo.html
Sir Roger Penrose & Dr. Stuart Hameroff: CONSCIOUSNESS AND THE PHYSICS OF THE BRAIN : th-cam.com/video/xGbgDf4HCHU/w-d-xo.html
If it isn't Dan Bilzerian, I don"t wanna hear it! 😂😂
Stu Ungar: Is the correct answer ✅
Liv is the best, wish she was still playing on TV.
Stu Unger and Eric Seidelberg
The answer to the question is Phil Ivey .. no questions asked.
Helmuth is by far THE best tournament player ever. 16 bracelets. I heard him speak about how he views the game, it was very short and very deep, I was shocked at how he actually views the game and how far beyond the rest of the game his processing was. Not a fan of his behavior but so what.
@@arfa9601 yes that's why everyone has 16 bracelets because it's so easy it's statistically insignificant. ok dumb dumb
Negreanu, Dwan and Helmuth
Have Hellmuth on the show
A lot of ya'll need to update yourselves. It ain't 2006 anymore. The game has changed big time in recent years. It's all about GTO/piosovlers etc. Names like Dwan, Hellmuth, DNegs etc while still good are not at the top echelon anymore in terms of gameplay. DNegs is trying to get up there but has struggled as of late.
Who the greatest poker player is of all time is up for debate. However, Phil Helmuth and Phil Ivey are in the discussion. Not many people are on that short list.
So much talk about strategy and games when really all that matters are the cards
You need to interview some online players. I'm too far out of the loop to tell you the current top players but it ain't negreanu or Helmuth. Ivey might be. Definitely was for a while.
I disagree on never showing cards. I like to show sometimes if I force a fold with a bet but actually had the goods. I find it can often make people respect my future bluffs a bit more subconsciously, like they’re thinking “well the last few times he did this he had it I better fold.”
I never got to the top professional level or anything but I did play for a living for a bit and make enough to live doing it. She might be right from her perspective I mean sure if I’m facing Phil Ivey prolly can’t do subtle tricks on him lol
Lex' future wife, calling it
He does seem a bit more nervous then usual
All I know about Phil I know from youtube clips. I still don't believe he wrote that book.
Lex tried to act smart in front of the pretty girl and then she called him on it and when he tried to talk his way out of it, she smiled at him. :53
1. Ivey
2. Negreanu
3. Dwan
Ivey yes
Stuey Ungar. If he didn't have the problem with cocaine, there's no telling how many more championships he would've won. If he hadn't had his issue the year Mansour won, he would've been a 4-timer at minimum.
When we discuss the greatest of all time we usually don't factor in the ifs. He had problems with drugs, they affected his game, so he's no the GOAT.
@@Sirwastealot Even without the if's he is still the only player to win three times(Johnny Moss was voted and didn't win them). The stories of the guy are legendary.
Stu Ungar is the biggest what if, and as far as the legend goes the biggest talent to have played. But not the goat.
Poker is moving chips around, calling or folding so what constitutes 'the best poker player ever' as a definition? Jack Effel could be the best, Negreanu or Hellmuth because all accomplished in their fields but a psychologist qualifies as well for reading people well. Shift, call, fold 🤷
Guys its Dan Bilzerian hands down. That dguy would never exaggerate his winnings he's such an honest man
😂
These two should date. No joke.
Ivey for sure
Phil Ivey and Chip Reese. Top two.
Hellmuth gets regularly owned in high stakes cash games. He's a great player esp. vs. amateurs and when stacks are typically
Cool, so Phil is a super hero with super natural abilities, screw math!
I hate it but Hellmuth is the answer for tournaments and that’s the best measure we have in poker right now.
What about stu unger
Another clickbait title. Not much talk about who is the greatest (if there is such a thing) and only two players mentioned. Daniel Negreanu is in the thumbnail and not even brought up. Could have been titled "Liv Boeree gives her thoughts on Hellmuth and Ivey".
Stu Ungar.
Also the greatest Gin Rummey player of all time
No. Stu was definitely the best tournament player, but games would form around him in cash games. High-stakes pros used to bumhunt him. He usually lost a ton in cash games except for when playing stud. Sickest specialist of all time maybe.
1:17 how did Lex miss that she was referencing Phil’s self-described “white magic”? Biggest miss of the interview!
I don't think he knows much about poker
Cash and tournament play is night and day Ivey has to be the best
The greatest player "of all time" is Doyle Brunson and it's not even close. Put his career vs anyone else's and tell me whose is better. I'll wait.
stu ungar
i thought she would say Dan Bilzerian
It's between Ungar and Ivey for the poker goat
Phil Ivey
Honey, he called me with Queen 10..
Pearsson, when he trash talked hellmuth under the table. Pure skill (and joy for the viewers)
No Home Jerome
Tony G is the funniest and most annoying for some opponents.
And excellent player as well. He should get into many top 10 lists, especially when it comes to NLH cash games, but he doesn't because he is not what you call a "full time pro".
What about Stu Ungar?
Sickest tournament player, but a very bad cashgame player exept for when playing stud. Other highstakes pros used to bumhunt him. I think he was to specialised to belong in the Goat discussion.
Best poker player ever.the one that's never played is the one tbats never lost
LLinusLLove is the GOAT
Everyone who actually plays regularly knows that Linus Loeliger is the best no limit player of all time. Timofey Kuznetsov and Phil Ivey are the overall best of all time
Whoever Berri is the best poker player of all time, but Kuznetsov is for sure close
@@roykeane1922 Berrisweet? Hes been getting smoked against Linus. Hes not even close to being better. Timofey is top tier in every game. Berri is only good at PLO
1. Phil ivy
2. Daniel
STUEY IS THE GOAT!🐐
So many comments on here are talking like “poker” is JUST hold ‘em. The BEST POKER PLAYER would be someone that can play ALL the games equally well and be successful in ALL games. It’s similar to people that think that the UFC IS MMA. When talking about poker you are talking about all games. Who is the ONE player that can play all games equally successful. Phil Hellmuth is definitely NOT the best. D-Negs is definitely NOT the guy. Phil Ivey would be in the conversation but it is probably a guy that doesn’t have “a brand” out there that the public would instantly recognize
The best players at no limit holdem which is the game she is referencing were never mentioned in this video. LLinus Love and dozens of other european dudes on the internet would play Ivey and Helmuth for as long as they want. Helmuth is essentially a snake oil salesman these days, he sells his action to rich dudes who know him from TV and his history of winning bracelets who assume hes an endboss for really high markup in tournaments where hes either losing or winning at less then the rate so he ends up proffiting either way. The online poker world is where the highest caliber competition is at in the game.
Online poker is just one aspect of a very big game. Hellmurh deserves credit for being a great live tournament player, and its arguable that live poker takes more skill. It certainly requires a larger range of skills
Stu Unger. Legend