Michael Bassett on the Confusion Surrounding Treaty Principles
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- Michael Laws talks to Michael Bassett about the confusion surrounding Treaty principles.
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I'm glad at least one outlet in Nz is not afraid to host this discussion
@@overover.. A better discussion would be if he invited someone with an opposing view to debate and discuss. I guess it's just easier for this host to get guests with the same view. It's more of an ego pump-up than a robust educational discussion.
@joebloggs5333 There is saturation coverage of the opposing view though. We all know the arguments and talking points because they are rammed down our throats in the news, documentaries, ads and movies
@@overover.. Thats why you invite them to a space where you can debate and the listeners can learn and form a opionion. Nothing constructives comes out of 2 white guys moaning about Maori.
@joebloggs5333 Not Sean's strength, thats for sure, he would just talk over them. But again, most people watching here have woke fatigue, and are simply happy to hear someone question the orthodoxy, no need to platform an ideology that is already so thoroughly promoted
The problem with Plunket and laws is that they are so sure their opinion is the right one that they aren't even open to the idea of an alternative perspective. A host should seek diverse perspectives and encourage open dialogue. I see I won't get that here so I'll move on.
I recently interviewed for a job where one of the stipulations in the contract was that the employee must adhere to and carry out their role in accordance with the principles of the treaty of Waitangi. How is it even possible to meet contractual obligations of a job if nobody can tell you what those principles are. This was one clause amongst many such clauses such as needing a knowledge of Te Ao Maori and is now very common, more so with council / government jobs.
maori will tell you the truth
Did you ask for them to clearly define the principles?
Those companies are just virtue signaling.
Easy, just say yes you will adhere to the principles
Maori have had to deal with the principals of pakeha law. Imposed and disguised as equity through democracy. We've had to learn your langauge and systems and culture...in our own country. ..but you don't know the beginning of ours !
I agree 100% with Seymour in regards that we need to sort it out. Full stop. Move forward. But I think he will find its a Pandoras Box...
wrong analogy. you meant a hornet's nest
"It's made up on the fly" - Bassett's comment concerning the interpretation of the Treaty Principles. Yes, that sounds about right Michael, so why hasn't all this confusion about what the Principles mean, been sorted out years ago? The Maori Party's idea of setting up an apartheid state which is what Co-governance essentially means, is not a good outcome. A democracy means equal rights for all, insofar as influencing political decision-making, so why is how the Principles are currently being interpreted, inherently anti-democratic?
democracy doesn't support Maori aspiration . It doesn't support equity. or the treaty. The treaty between the 2 soviergns. Maori declared sovereign in 1835 and was recognised worldwide . Go check the French newspapers from that time
@@djhemirukahemisphere8893 Really? Democracy doesn't support Māori aspiration? You need to look around you, my friend! Thousands of Māori have succeeded big time. They are doctors, teachers and lecturers, lawyers, politicians and councillors, radio and TV presenters and journalists, businessmen and business owners. My own parents are highly successful dairy farmers who, before their retirement, owned three sizeable dairy units. The problem is that some Māori have bought into the new woke narrative that they are perpetual victims of colonisation and will amount to nothing under the cruel regime of the Pākeha. And Te Pāti Māori and their sympathisers are the biggest disseminators of this crap. So let me ask you this . . . what do you do for a job at the moment? Are you on the breadline, unable to make ends meet? What do you aspire to do or be?
As the late Sir David Lange said ''Queen Victoria was not in the business of going into partnership with a lot of thumb-prints..''
I love this quote
Whatever. Look what happened to Hong Kong when the Crown gave it back
@@user-bt1tq2qm7e communist rule in our case it will be tribal rule ....god help us
He also said something you can have equality or bi-culturalism but not both.
@@ObiePaddles ..and we live in a liberal-democratic nation where there is ample opportunity to pursue your own cultural and economic initiatives within the law..- without any 'special deals' on an ethnic basis..
NO PRINCIPLES IN THE TREATY, MORE LIES ,JUST LIKE PARTNERSHIP, A PRIVATE COMMENT OF A JUDGE, NOT A BENCH DECISION
Bingo 👍
Treaties must be sealed by the authority issuing it.
In this case England.
Fudge the treaty "Principles" created by Labour's Geoffrey Palmer, the treaty is just what it says - ceding of sovereignty.
Totaly agree. They were inserted into legislation in1986. There fore they form no part of the official treaty surely. Shame Winstone Chris and David dont have their feet in the same puddle
1986 is the year the Settlers Parliament under labour and National tried getting rid of two Sovereign Nation.
Tangata Whenua Natives are the principles.
Your settlers government is governing lawless still to this day
As the treaty has no principles any attempt to specify them is effectively an attempt to rewrite the treaty. All references to the principals in NZ legislation should be repealed.
Why, well that’s just your interpretation, and that’s the trouble every tribe, every iwi leader, every Māori has a different interpretation, so we just spin around and get nowhere, just because the radical Māori can’t get their way.
Are the like of the Rawhitis, Jackson’s,Tamahires afraid of loosing their gravy boat and have to just live like normal people, without having people to look down too their wisdom.
We are not concerned with legislation that affect everyone, but concerned we don’t want an apartheid system, that affect just some.
I notice that Dr Bassett did not actually answer your question! Sure, he was all very eloquent on background but he didn't address as to why HE or his party didn't fix the issue at the time - i.e., all care but no taking responsibility... Even sounded, still like a politician.
Maori chiefs ceded sovereignty to the British Crown & became British citizens with all the rights that go with it. The great Sir Apirana Ngata a lawyer and very wise man espoused exactly that, he was also a member of parliament, The gravy train & victim hood needs to be wound up, along with the Waitangi Tribunal which was supposed to be temporary still exists after 48 years, go figure
Wrong,
Haha that's not what happened 😂
@matakitaki1 so u know more than a Maori lawyer ahe
@@barrygeary9362 Yea, As do many other lawyers who have corrected Apirana, as have historians both Māori and Pākehā. Is there any other questions you need correcting on? If you think your research of information from hobsons pledge is a source for debate then you are humorous.
@@matakitaki1 Apirana had an impressive brain, got a law degree in 2 years.
So what we've got is the result of political incompetence upon political incompetence upon political incompetence........................, I'm shocked.
The principles of the treaty are what people want to read into the treaty.... sheer abstractions. The treaty should be understood as part of a historical process, rooted in and contextualized in history, and accordingly unable to function in some kind of central or constitutional way for our own politics today. It is something but also not everything.
The Treaty will mean whatever any Maori activist wants it to mean at any point in time.
Scrap the crown, scrap the treaty.
🤔💡Use Te Tiriti to scrap the Pretend crown 🔥
The confusion is by design.
Confusion is of the Devil
Isn't it a peace treaty?
The confusion comes in with Ruth Ross and her two 'versions' in the 1960s.
I'm hoping you will be giving you views on this: 'Brown also announced $72m in funding, to be allocated over three years, to be used as an “incentive payment” to entice police to hit speed, alcohol, and drug enforcement targets. The funding would be released to police once they hit their enforcement targets.'
Paying 'incentives' to hit targets is something I find to be somewhat questionable.
Source: The New Zealand Herald
That question might be better asked where that is the actual topic of discussion. This is not it.
@@mr2981 Which is why I said, 'I'm hoping you will be giving your views on this'.
@@mr2981I'd like to see performance payments for politicians too
Just a drop in the over $3 billion deficit the Police are operating under, no wonder hey focus so much in this low hanging fruit
Business as usual
#fleecing the goyim,
#revenue gathering.
I think it’s time we move on from this treaty principles crap. National and Nz1st have both come out today saying they will not support this bill beyond first reading. It’s dead in the water. Can we now look to sort the rest of the issues facing this country?
I think its time to stop this Colonial crap and remove govt from its hegemony
This desperatly needs to be sorted asap. For the future of all people of New Zealand. No more smoke and mirrors
@@esexton921 Well, you will have an opportunity in a couple of years to vote for Seymour again. I predict they will remain a 7-8% party. In the meantime, the majority of us will get on with fixing the real issues facing this country.
@@esexton921 Haaa and the smoke and mirrors came from where?
If they dont define what its principles are then the TOW should be discarded and apply "we are all equal citizens approach". I personally dont understand what the Treaty "principles" are. All I know is that I dont trust the whole industry that has developed around it that is trying to push clearly vested interest interpretations down all our throats.
I don’t agree we should all be treated equally because we will find ourselves forced into te Ao Māori, beginning meetings with karakia etc. Let’s allow differences between citizens.
@@user-fs6ym6ur1i Equal under the law as in not apartheid.
Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi that don’t even exist. Clearly the emperor is naked. He just doesn’t yet know it.
Do your homework can you, previous, they made up Principles of the treaty some time ago, so we kind of have now - an Articles treaty and a Principles treaty. How about the Little wood final English draft found in Pukekohe in 1989 ?. Seymour is absolutely right in his thinking, everyone is equal under the law, & that if you have a touch of Maori heritage you do not have more rights than everybody else, & therefore put a claim in for foreshore ....
customary title , activists & tea party Maori are stirring up emotions with propaganda saying he wants to re write the T O W untrue, he just suggests a bill on what the actual Principles should be....
.equal rights for all one person one vote.....
Wrong, You all take a perception that benefits you. Read Te Tiriti its all you need to know.
Nobody who was alive when the treaty was signed is alive now, nobody really seems to know what the true intent was, the people at the time had no idea what the world would be like today… so why don’t we just take a fresh look at what mistakes/injustices have happened, fix those that can be fixed, apologise for those that cant be fixed and move forward together as a single nation with many cultures.
Why is there confusion when it comes to the Treaty of Waitangi. Nothing can be changed in either Treaty. Nothing. What the Crown have not done is make sure it wad honored. How hard is that to understand
I'm not confused, Sir Apirana Ngata didn't seem to be confused, nor Sir Hugh Kawharu
@@aligeoff.27How convenient that those who espouse Sir Apirana Ngata as being the best example of a "Good Maori" never mention when he was caught (twice) using funds to go towards Maori projects that were actually allocated to other projects, he lost his position and favour with his colleagues...whole truths always beat half truths...
IT IS SIMPLE. If you are not prepared to debate anything, you do not have a leg to stand on. I mean. to quote an often-heard phrase from Maori, quote; "What are you afraid of"?
BTW the Waitangi Tribunal is a racist court. You can only go to this if you are Maori. Time to get rid of it.
No anybody who claims their rights have been breached as stated in the Treaty of Waitangi can approach the tribunal. It is not based on race. A bit like anyone who has a parking ticket can appeal it - only those with infringements are eligible
@@user-fs6ym6ur1i That is not a good analogy. The council will not side with you over a disputed parking ticket.
Geoffrey Palmer was responsible for the Treaty mess.
Bassett is another case of a politician not taking responsibility for their stuff ups and just dribbling out more word salad
I found it interesting. And grateful to understand his slither of knowledge, on the topic.
The Treaty needs replacing with a new Constitution in writing.
It’s ludicrous that we still rely on a barely literate document between settlers living on the edge of the world and a stoneage people.
Even the greatest document in the Western world, Magna Carta, now only has two elements still on the statute books in Britain.
Can’t we all just get along
Get rid of the treaty and form a constitution for all new zealanders regardless of race.
Norman Kirk, Mat Rata, Geoffrey Palmer! ……..Now we have a Privileged Bunch of People based on race! Lange was a disappointment!
Looking at their welfare, crime, health, poverty stats, I’d hardly say privileged
@@user-fs6ym6ur1i Needs based not race based.
Back in the day, Matt Rata was accused of reading comics in parliament.
Some local graffiti down from Wellington railway station suggested 'Matt Rata reads comics' follwed by 'No he doesn't, he only looks at the pictures'
So presumably he was distracted on a number of fronts.
What about that document that we have to wait till 2062 regarding the govt maori ??
there is a lot of confusion about what the Principles mean, Some people are saying " Its wrong, the They are trying to RE Write the treaty" MSM media are not helping is this regard
KIWI not ewi ...
This issue needs to be sorted now! The treaty and all of its ills have gone on long enough and we all just want to move on!
Plus I’m absolutely sick of the taxpayer gravy train, didn’t Key say he was going to end all treaty claims back in 2015?
Seems straight forward what the principles are. Each generation get to change them & keep the gravy train running. Just more uni types creating tax payer funded salaries for a lucrative retirement nest egg
Hello 👋 Mayor
Don't be mistaken, the Treaty was ignored for decades after and one needs to ask onesself why that is. Because the truth is too harsh to take by the Colonial Govt
Seems to me "all" politicians are to be blamed for this debacle we are in now.
Agreed. There wouldn’t be a mess if politicians had honoured the treaty from the start.
Listening to Bassett spouting word salad and not answering the question is like listening to Chloe with a slightly deeper voice
Im subscribing just to read the racist comment and listen to michael have a big cry. It keeps me up to date with how certain people in this country really feel about maori since they never say it directly to maori.
David Lange said this in 1980 and he was right. "The TOW was forged upon the absolute moral categories of the Bible. We don't live in that world anymore." The Anthropic Principle. Any interpretation must be subject to the absolute moral categories of the Bible. The reason why the Bible once lived in the court was because of the Method of Antithesis in human reason process whereby intellectual certainty is guaranteed. Lange knew this and he knew it in Modernity. We don't live in Modernity today. We live in a Postmodern Post-Christian day where truth is the domain of the individual. "I'm a gay truck." The confusion surrounding the TOW today is because the Bible is missing from the korero. My opinion as someone who has studying the shape of thinking in Genesis 1.1 fourth word Elohim, as it relates to a Postmodern Post-Christian mind. Throw the TOW away and start with the God of the Bible. Dialectical Methodology is a never ending conflict using only words. A product of Kant and Hegel. History is the only precedent for understanding the current day. It was shaped by a particular way of thinking about ourselves and our world.
Bazinga !!
Mat and his cronies ruled the Faithfull 😡
Just like the unions did back then !😡
Ratification is Paramount with the concern to the Treaty !!😛😛😛
Defined acknowledgement of the Treaty is a ABSOLUTE
SO THE PEOPLE KNOW WERE THEY STAND mmmmh !?🤔😌👍😎🎱🙏♾️
Before iO "GOD" 😛😛😛
DO YOU UNDERSTAND !?😛😛😛🛡️🙏🗡️♾️🕊️
"I AM overstanding"✨️🤔💛
Let me get this right. Maori [radicals] say that the treaty was between the chiefs [or most of them] and the British Crown, which means settlers were not involved. OK, can't argue with that. But that also means it was between maori chiefs and the British Crown, and accordingly our politics can not function in a treaty-centric manner today.... however it's interpretated. Historicize the treaty.
Why isn't the king paying settlements?
@@bobbob3834-j8r Because this colony became self-governing in 1853.
The Treaty between Maori and The British Crown became obsolete once NZ became an independent country in about 1948 .
@davethewave7248 that doesn't explain why the nz tax payer is paying for a treaty between the royal family and maori
q,vic.......signed with the natives not the general public ok.
Te Tiriti is a contract between Māori and the Crown. You are just settlers. Not happy? Make your own treaty with the crown 😂
Here you go again, Michael. We really dont need to be exposed to sweaty armpits. What's with this rudeness?
M Bassett is a wise person and generally needs to be listened to
david is the only confusion.
Maori entered a partnership with the crown - not pakeha. This isn't up for interpretation. You're somewhat correct, however Maori are not akin to pakeha in the sense of the treaty given the pakeha were already subjects of the British crown and came to these shores under their guidance for the most part - Maori were reliquishing their right to govern pakeha to the crown so the law they knew could be applied to them. Nowadays we're all subject to the same laws regardless of what was written.
Article One says that there is one sovereign authority in NZ. Should we not honour the Treatry?
The United tribes, not Maori, signed with the crown.
@@courtneyyates120 united tribes of pakeha? 😂
@@courtneyyates120 Wrong, ALL Maori signed and are bound by the Treaty.
The word partnership does not appear in the Treaty, however the words cede sovereignty does, TWICE! It is not a partnership.
YOU LOT STARTED A RACE WAR JUST BECAUSE YOU WERENT INCLUDED IN THE TREATY 😂😂EQUAL RIGHT'S WE HAD LAND WAR'S WITH THE BRITTISH & THAT EARNT OUR TREATY BECAUSE MAORI & THE BRITTISH CAME OFF THE BATTEL FIELD OF LAND WAR'S AS 1 PEOPLE
You guys are weird
Nzf and national arent even supporting it past 1st reading. Seymour act and there supporters should pipe down 😂
Things will change.
@harrybaker6219 acts just making it harder for this coalition to do there job. Only reason it's one of there policies is its what there donors and supporters want. All 9% of them 😂
The confusion around the Treaty was brought about by Pakeha minipulating and violating it so many times to seize Maori property and their illogical justification for doing so. It was theft pure and simple which Pakeha cannot deny any longer so getting rid of the treaty is their way of concealing their crimes.
Co-governance is in the treaty. Brits replaced rangatiratanga (run by local chiefs) into sovereignty (run by UK royals). The treaty house was set on fire but the treaty document still exists showing the details along with its burnt frayed edges. We've tried the colonial system for a hell of a long time and now is the time to give the actual documented deal a fair go.
and what would that look like?
Papua New Guinea.😔
@@Badgerman913 maybe Zimbabwe or any other African country?