My aim is to do both. I’m doing WTF at the moment since it’s the only style available where I live. But I live taekwondo and so I want to learn both in my lifetime
Hello! As a second Dan in ITF tkd, I'm really happy you're bringing some attention to this commonly unknown style of tkd(although it's the traditional style) and I think you're doing the tul pretty well despite learning it right off the bat :)
The only think W.T.F. style has to do with Tae Kwon Do is the name, as even some forms change and grade system... it is nearly another martial art, and it's favoured by the fact it has a place in Olympics. Some may think it is the main TKD and generate confusion. Also, as the rules of Olympic Games leads to see leg strikes' combat, it's pretty much all you see, at the point it doesn't really show the world what TKD is. Kind of confusion, some people end up ignoring that there are throws, punches, blocks, etc. In my country, Argentina the first group of instructors came in the 60's adn since then it has been place of important events. Which is not much time, since it was founded in 1955; means that in some 7-8 years it spread worldwide, as far as South America. In terms of history, ITF was founded in 1966; and WTF was founded in 1973 (taking into account the websites of both). Also, the account of the events leading to the foundation of TKD, is much more solid in ITF's version of history.
@@diegoargibay2287 I agree, which honestly gives tkd a very bad name as a totally martial arts style. But then again, they did that for political reasons between the North and south Korea so.. :/ such is life
@@diegoargibay2287 With all due respect, the Kwans (much like suri te and tamari te in okinawa ie local systems) were there before the term Taekwondo was coined, and that was also a group effort to coin it. ITF has a habit of disrespecting where they came from. When Choi branched off, he taught north Koreans, I don't see an issue, but that's when it became taboo to have the two systems communicate to each other and learn. The WTF was to force nationalism on those Kwans to make their own universal system, which is another issue entirely leading to less practical forms and more separation. However, not all of WTF was made with incomplete instruction with impractical techniques. It is important to respect how ITF fights, but their roots are not deep, Choi did not have much experience before making that switch. He was taught by one person in japan, earned his 2nd degree when coined the term that's it. How can a second degree claim to be above the Kwans that were already there? The kwans were using the same heian and naihanchi system as before with roots in Kwon pup (korean kung fu) as well. There was more of a base to go with. That can't be refuted.
@@Simex679 tbh Ive never had a problem getting mixed up or anything, I started both as a white belt around the same time so got the basics down and went from there, I found that doing two similar but different arts helped me understand them better, maybe it's just me but when I train karate I train karate and vice versa never had an issue, taekwon-do definitely brought my kicks along faster though 🙂 I work very early shifts so had no problem training both twice a week in the evenings, I was lucky to have very good teachers
@@hellcla5 bro Thank you so much I needed this response because I've been asking people if it's ok to practice the two arts at the same time and most people said to stick to one art get a black belt than focus on the next art, because apparently I'm only gonna stress out my brains 😂, now I know that there is nothing wrong with doing two arts at the same time.🙏🏽😁 I really appreciate your reply!!!
@@hellcla5 I'm a black belt in ITF...1st Dan. I'm definitely appreciating karate, more and more, these days. I definitely want to practice it, most likely Shotokan and a Chinese martial art as well.
Taekwondo ITF inherited karate thecniques, the general Choi learned karate when he studied in Japan during the second world war, but he combined taekion and song bak ji tradiotional korean artial marts, in this ITF Taekwon-do it focusses on using many kicks instead punches
I practice both so I'd say the use of sine wine in itf technique, shotokan karate has much lower stances, sparring in itf is continous rather than one hit based like karate kumite, itf heavier on kicks and kicking variations, karate that I've done anyway had more grappling, clinching in bunkai, Chambers for blocks are different
한국에서는 TKD의 시장점유율이 WT가 압도적이라 ITF는 물론이거니와 ITF-Karate 관계에 대한 자료 모두 항상 외국에서 찾아보고 있는 실정입니다.(저 역시 ITF 수련자임에도 불구하구요!) 좋은 콘텐츠 만들어주어서 감사합니다. Yusuke San, Thank you for your sharing!
As a former ITF practitioner (and eternal student), I can say you were doing quite well. In fact, your positions and posture were all exemplary for your first few times. The only thing you truly seem to struggle with is the transitions themselves. Your movements between positions/katas was not only unsure (as one might expect, given its your first time), but incredibly stiff/rigid. If I have one suggestion, it would be for you to practice the transitions from punch to block to rest in random order (I.E: punch, block, punch, rest, block, punch, etc.) until you can get used to moving with the momentum behind said motions and gain better fluidity.
the first exercise isnt a tul, its a saju, which means: four directional exercise. there are two basic ones in ITF, but alot of schools have students come up with their own to become better.
I've heard their purpose is to teach sine wave movement. If so, I finally have an explanation of their purpose. The pre-pattern explanation never made any sense to me.
This is what I came to comments to say. Saju Jirugi and Saju Maki (four directional punch and four directional block respectfully) are technical exercises to teach foot movement and the first stance. The first Tul (pattern) is taught at the second belt.
@@moominpic Good point. Then I'm back to thinking the pre pattern explanation doesn't make sense. What distinguishes them from a pattern. What's the essential difference?
i myself am currently a blue belt in ITF Tae Kwon-Do in the UK and i think its really nice seeing that you are willing to try out other martial arts with an unbiased opinion
As a first dan in ITF: you did it a lot better than most people do when they do it at first also, thanks for shedding some light on our style! It's a shame most people think of the objectively inferior WTF when they think of TaeKwon-Do, hopefully that will change
Is so cute see someone starting tkd and doing saju, it reminds me 10 yrs back when I'm wearing my white belt that means innocence and purity's. Ah, so many memory's of days learning and walking slowly with some friends to home. I hope u enjoy the experience
I started off in shotokan as a child and started ITF taekwondo when I wen to university. I found sine wave so weird initially but it generates so much more power in tul. Glad to have trained in both.
I congratulate you Sir on looking at the differences objectively, unlike some commentators who like to dismiss on the basis of a closed mind. I studied Karate (not Shotokan) for 3 years a long time ago and in many ways, despite vast differences in philosophy and movement, it set me up well to begin studying ITF Taekwon-Do which I study to this day. WT Taekwondo (note the absence of the hyphenation!) is very different again. I have many friends who are WT Masters and train WT occasionally for a very different experience. Keep up the good work! (Addendum. The foot angle on the walking stance is no more than 25 degrees, not 45)
I study ITF style Tae Kwon Do, but my teacher does not do the Sine Wave. So basically, we do our forms similar to our Tang Soo Do and Shotokan cousins.
How though? Are you affiliated with ITF? Because, if you go to seminars wouldn't the grand masters try to correct you? I remember the dojangs in my country really didn't do sine wave for a long time but that was because we were cut off from the larger ITF bodies for awhile. Travel and communication were harder way back when.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 My understanding is, there are multiple ITF organizations, and not all do the Sine Wave. Indeed, it wasn't until late in General Choi's career that he introduced the Sine Wave to forms. But as you can see from comments, Masters and Grandmasters around the world did not all adopt this variation. I am no Grandmaster, but I don't see any benefit from the Sine Wave other than to make it look a little different from Shotokan and Tang Soo Do, and that is not a good enough reason, IMO, to change how millions of people do forms. So in a nutshell, if my teacher retired and closed his Dojang, I suppose I might find myself having to go elsewhere, and if the only other ITF schools did the Sinewave, I suppose I would have to adapt. But in the scheme of things, how we do our forms is not something I am too worried about. 3 1/2 years ago, I started a new martial art having previously studied Tang Soo Do for 3 years. I started as a white belt and worked my way up to 1st Dan. I can learn a new set of forms, or learn to do my forms a different way if that is what my teacher expects.
@@martintanz9098 I still don't get how an ITF school can do without sine wave. They stress that at every seminar. I think it has practical benefits. I see it as something you do whilst applying the pulling hand. I also see it as you allowing your opponent to support your body mass as you crash into them. I see nothing wrong with it.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 ITF did without the Sine Wave until the 1980s. I know there are different theories about how to generate power, and that is fine. My teacher sticks with the original old school Tae Kwon Do, (except when he doesn't :))
That gravity use..., Mabuni Kenei wrote many years ago a way of moving and therefore hitting which used gravity (Hiza o Nuku or making the knee disappear) which is the same concept but instead of going up before the move, you just let yourself fall forward and down, you can see it in the opening of Passai/Bassai Dai. It is something that Aragaki sensei also studied so probably it is not a different concept but a different way to apply it. A good method of training it is Toboku Ho (you can find it in Karate Do Nyumon written by Mabuni Kenwa and Nakasone Genwa).
Yes - As a Shitoryu student/teacher (Shukokai), I teach w/ body mechanics as the source of everything. If you’re interested (since my methods are a bit different from “standard” WKF style), please look-up “52 Masters” series on TH-cam (or Amazon Prime in April). I’m Ed Smith of Shukokai. Let me know your thoughts.
ITF TKD and karate are of the close same family martial arts. With Shotokan background, Yusuke can easily understand and pick up what the TKD master is sharing with him👊💪👏
3rd dan ITF Taekwondo here - great to see videos like this which show/explain the comparisons between different styles! It's very interesting to me to see the very solid+powerful karate style being applied to the fluid "bouncy" (bodyweight into the movement) ITF TKD style. Thanks for sharing (three years ago!)
I love the open mindedness. I think you coped very well with the session. The important thing about taekwon do sine wave movement is that it should be natural. As you start your movement you relax, this causes the body to drop slightly, you then raise your body and drop as you complete the technique.
I think that the difference between Kata (Karate) and Tul (Taekwon-Do ITF), is that Kata try to practice Bunkai (application), while Tul try to apply biomechanical principles.
What does that even mean? The same bunkai that work in karate Kata also work in ITF Tuls BECAUSE the hand techniques and some leg forms are the same. In fact you can take analyses of Shaolin Taolu and apply them to ITF Tuls. I do that ALL the time.
Good stuff, nice to see cross training. Reminds me of my mma days when I was training with Judoka and MT guys alongside Karate and TKD. We can learn something from everywhere. People who say any art is useless are generally coming from a place of ignorance.
Timing of punch:. I practice a version of ITF, and have practiced Tai Chi. Tai Chi has a concept the six harmonies. The hands move with the feet. Knees move with elbows. Shoulders move with hips.
I´m always facinated to see how you show the importance of learn with the ones that follow different ways. Thanks for help improving the art, Yusuke san!
While performing Saju Jirugi you were making the same mistake I used to make myself (which is opening your hands while relaxing before every action). But beautifuly done, anyway. It's hard for most of other martial artist to coordinate the sine wave, but didn't seem hard for you. GOOD JOB!!!
your cup is full with karate, it shines through very brightly... try to relax, speed and grace over strength and power. your kicks will be as fast or even faster then your hands. "slow" kicks in air, "snappy" kicks on bag, your knees will last longer.
I study Tang Soo Do, which is very similar to TKD. For the front stance, here's a way to think about it. You want to be on a pair of skis, not a skateboard. This applies to not only the width but also the position of the back foot. Make sure the rear knee is locked straight or the stance lacks power. For the hip rotation, it's the same side as the technique. Thrust the hip forward for an attack (punch, kick, etc.) and pull it rearward on a block. So, using the left hand low block (ha dan maki) starting from the chamber position (left hand by right cheek) and left hip pointed forward. What you want to do is pull that left hip back and allow that to throw the block. As you do this, your right foot will rotate from "skateboard" to "skis," your right knee will lock out, and your weight should be centered but driving forward. Here's a good video that breaks it down and you might even recognize the form: Tang Soo Do - KI CHO HYUNG IL BU - Basic Form # 1 - step by step by TheSenseiBill. Note that this is the artistic expression, not the practical application. As the Masters you worked with demonstrate, practical application uses smaller movements that stay closer to the body.
You just surprises me more and more with your way of approaching other martial arts congrats on that! Glad you fixed your timing 6ou we're pretty off at the beginning lol nice video man
The dropping of the body helps to increase body mass and make your moves more powerful. Along with the hip rotation when you thrust your relevant hip forward for kinetic energy, you can generate an awful lot of power. Speed - Distance - Timing.
For Taekwondo, most movements will have sign wave in them. Thats why he is moving basically down-up-down. This helps generate more power, and generally looks better.
After 9 years in Karate I did train TKD, mainly WTF, but I also learned ITF Poomse/forms, which are very different from the Taeguk forms. I was never a fan of the Sign Wave in ITF forms, largely because I can from a Karate background!
Same as the parallel stance front punch. That Is using sign wave, in the form of foot spring. This means you only go up-down, whilst keeping the knees straight.
Analyzing shotokan to tkd is like focusing on the differences between a set of knives when what is needed in today's world is possesssion of the spoon, the fork, and the knife.
I am not an ITF person but it look good for the most part. You are doing more of a double hip like you do on Tekki. The ITF person is moving the hip away as he is stepping and then moving the hip forward as he land.
I advise you go see a WTA school most in American and Korea. The Presidents in the past of ITF and WTF were students of the blue wave schools. Traditional Shotokan was only used for defense. Shotokan original started from Goju Ryu karate which came from Okinawa by Sensei Chosun Miyagi where he learned in china.
Beautiful movements. You did a good job! Also you only have yourself to blame for having people ask you to do this! You made the comment in another video along the lines of "I wonder how it would look like if I tried these forms in karate". Ever since then people wanted to see it lol.
Your form is great for having just tried really shows that martial arts intellect when you adapt so quick, i do Muay Thai and boxing , so while i could replicate the movements they wouldn't be nearly as fluid as yours.
This was a very enjoyable video, thank you for posting it. Tae kwon do is partially derived from Shotokan karate (General Choi, the "father of the kwon do" was a nidan), so it's interesting seeing both of them side by side. One minor note: it is "sine" wave (from trigonometry) rather than "sign" wave. Great job on the video!
んにちは I am following your channel since you review the ITF Team Pattern competition. Thank you for taking your time to try other styles and trying to understand it, that is the right way to do things before creating an opinion. As an ITF instructor I can tell you that you are doing great, the power is there and the movements are OK. A bit stiff but is normal since your style is Karate. I don't know if the Sabunim mentioned this to you but Saju Jirugi and Saju Makgi are not considered patterns or Tul's, they are more basic exercises that introduce the movements for the first Tul Chon-Ji. Another thing if you were my student I will correct will be rotation of the wrist. Our blocks are also a type of attack, all our blocks employ a type of wrist rotation that helps to generate more power and concentrate the energy in one direction. よくがんばったね
The traditional technique is geometry. A strongly bent leg in a stance is a slow kick to the opponent. The wave is only a principle. But the strike technique is a little more than that. We taught them to jump.
I studied Shotokan when in my youth and made it to purple belt. After a 20 year break, I started ITF TKD. Both styles have their pros and cons. I would say one is better or worse than the other, but just different interpretation of a similar technique.
This brings back memories of highschool. Learned Tae Kwon Do for a while. But the club got disbanded because it was deemed "illegal", due to ours was a branch from outside of the national Tae Kwon Do organization. 😅 But, I noticed the "swing-slide" movements before and during the punches executed. I remembered also that there is a different way on how to block a center attack. I noticed that in Karate, the "Uke" is done with a wrist twist and and exposes the "inside" part of the wrist in line with the thumb. In Tae Kwon Do, it is mainly the "outer" part of the wrist that is used to block.
Pak-San's back kick is nice! He lifted his kicking leg to the side and then kicked - like Sensei Sugiyama (JKA Chicago) taught. Not the old fashion JKA method of keeping the leg in the vertical plain (which has a short effective distance window).
If your a Shotokan Instructor you may see the some the stances are similar. I have learned from the WTA the traditional blue wave school. You can see the similarly of shotokan forms. WTF and ITf were basically sports competition , WTA is more traditional from on Chungdokwan.
Im 4th dan ITF, Im not practicing at the moment . Considering that Choi Hong Hi was 2 dan Karate Shotokan, and combine it with Tae kyon, I find several similarities and differences in positions and how execute technics. But the big difference is the undulating motion.
I studied Rhee TKD in my youth IIRC by then they had broken with the ITF. I graded to 7th Kup, messed up my 6th Kup grading, by the time my next grading came up I was training at a 5th kup level but finances got in the way of me being able to grade, half a year later I couldn't afford to keep up my training so I dropped out of formal Martial arts training.
I practice ITF TKD and today I got my yellow belt, so I'm not the most experienced, but your power is good you just need to work on the sinewave and putting one fist on top of the other when blocking. Breathing is also important.
Nice! I also find difficult that change of height between poses due to sine wave, we do not do that in taekwondo WTF. You can watch a quite good demonstration of WTF poomsae (like karate kata) looking for Sejong Taekwondo Dojang videos, for example. The whole list of poomsae is fine, I would say Sipjin, Cheonkwon or Taebek.
I’m an ITF taekwon do black belt and student since 1981. The rise in stance is a relatively new thing. Before we did our stances and most techniques more similar to traditional karate. Don’t feel bad at all. Your techniques would be more similar to older practitioners such as myself.
A huge difference between taekwodo and karate is in karate, whilst doing movements, you look almost stiff all the way through. Its as if your tensing between each movement. Whereas in Taekwondo we always relax until the very final moment then we tense up and use breath control to keep the movement... well... controlled. This helps with momentum, helping to create more power. This also helps increase your speed when performing that movement.
Only thing I noticed that was very different is the weight distribution of your stance. In Taekwondo the "default" forward-facing stance has a weight distribution of 50-50, looks like karate has more weight on the front leg. And the side facing stance has a weight distribution of 30/70, 70% being on the back leg. Reason for this is cause it makes it harder to sweep you, as if someone were to kick your front leg in you wouldn't fall, and it makes it a lot easier getting the front leg up for a side kick to engage, or to stop an engage. It's pretty similar to how Muay Thai from Thailand stands, they have almost their entire weight on the back leg, ready to check kicks with their front shin.
Since you did ITF teul, you should now try Kukkiwon (WT/WTF) taekwondo poomsae (kata/forms) and gyeorugi (kumite/sparring). I remember you interviewed that one poomsae competitor from the Philippines, Rodolfo -- he does Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo poomsae. It would be cool to practice the poomsae with a local instructor and then send Rodolfo the video to see what he thinks!
I'm a 2nd degree in WT (formerly WTF) and the front stance is different. WTF is narrower. One fist length apart. When transitioning to punch from a front stance. We don't "hop" during the transition. Our head stays at the same height during the transition. This is interesting to watch.
I do not do ITF, however at our Hapkido school we do use a similar rising and falling motion in our technique, also referred to as the sine wave movement. This is a technique fairly common in the Korean arts.
As far as I understand the sine wave was something Choi Hong Hee came up with in his later years and is pretty unique to ITF. It's interesting to hear there's a similar motion in Hapkido! What to me is also interesting is that it also looks a lot like the poombalgi movement in taekkyon which probably evolved from korean dancing.
@@matthijsvanwijhe864 I would be inclined to agree. It seems that many principles are common throughout the martial arts, but with varied names. With full respect intended, this leads me to believe that many of the developers of these arts simply labeled a concept and not necessarily invented them. I would say martial artists can take a concept and apply it to a different movement. For instance, the sine wave in hapkido is often used to deliver strikes, like many arts, but it also applies to throwing techniques.
Well done. I practice both Traditional Tae Kwon Do (W/O sine wave) and GoJu Ryu. With some boxing mixed in as well. The state of mind one has to transition to, as to alter method of technique from one to the other is challenging but rewarding.
i do practice itf taekwondo and even though im almost but not blackbelt, here's something that ive noticed, see how the itf taekwondo student when doing forms he slides his feet, just elevate them a little bit, you, in the other hand, elevate your feet more and hit the foot with the ground when you finish a movement, with the little bit i know, you shouldnt elevate your feet, just slide them, hope this helps
Very interesting!! I would love to see a video where you visit Lee Dong Hee or Jeong In Cheol. They are two WT taekwondo masters that focus heavily on self-defense and bunhae (bunkai). The latter is actually the grandson (I believe) of the vice president of the Ohdo kwan, the kwan where the founder of ITF (Choi Hong Hee) came from.
you should also try WT(F) Taekwondo. Seeing as he was doing the Tul and being a former TKD WT(F) 3rd Dan I think his punches were high (chin level) while yours were solar plexus levels
ITF forms are traditional kata form Won kuk lee was the founder of Chungdokwan. Grandmaster Won Kuk Lee knew a traditional form of korea called Taekkyon it was a kicking form. Later he when to Japan for college during Japanese Occupation He that became a student of founder of Shotokan karate Gichen Funakoshi. Came back to Korean combining both skills Taekkyon kicking and Shotokan skills developed Chungdokwan the first school to open was called Blue Wave School est. 1944 in korea, All korean military and korean police trained Chungdokwan. General Hong Hi choi who was a eourth degree in Chungdokwan studied und Grandmaster Won Kuk Lee. It one of the last traditional kwan school. There were Tang Soo DO, Moon do kwan which there techniques come from china. General Choi try to combine all korean martial arts to the name Taekwondo in 1955 after korean war to combine Unity of all korean Kwans school. North Korean still practice Chungdokwan technique. Grandmaster Son duk Sun who Won kuk lee gave to school to before korean war. Grandmaster Son duk Sun. Became the leader instructor of all Chungdokwan schools. He refused to join ITF and he started the WTA assoc. That is how ITF was founded
My first TKD class was an ITF school. It was the TKD club at my university. The forms are all named after famous people and events in Korean history.
That one dangun mofo
Taekwon-Do ITF is amazing
I agree
My aim is to do both. I’m doing WTF at the moment since it’s the only style available where I live. But I live taekwondo and so I want to learn both in my lifetime
Hello! As a second Dan in ITF tkd, I'm really happy you're bringing some attention to this commonly unknown style of tkd(although it's the traditional style) and I think you're doing the tul pretty well despite learning it right off the bat :)
The only think W.T.F. style has to do with Tae Kwon Do is the name, as even some forms change and grade system... it is nearly another martial art, and it's favoured by the fact it has a place in Olympics. Some may think it is the main TKD and generate confusion. Also, as the rules of Olympic Games leads to see leg strikes' combat, it's pretty much all you see, at the point it doesn't really show the world what TKD is. Kind of confusion, some people end up ignoring that there are throws, punches, blocks, etc. In my country, Argentina the first group of instructors came in the 60's adn since then it has been place of important events. Which is not much time, since it was founded in 1955; means that in some 7-8 years it spread worldwide, as far as South America. In terms of history, ITF was founded in 1966; and WTF was founded in 1973 (taking into account the websites of both). Also, the account of the events leading to the foundation of TKD, is much more solid in ITF's version of history.
@@diegoargibay2287 I agree, which honestly gives tkd a very bad name as a totally martial arts style. But then again, they did that for political reasons between the North and south Korea so.. :/ such is life
@@diegoargibay2287 With all due respect, the Kwans (much like suri te and tamari te in okinawa ie local systems) were there before the term Taekwondo was coined, and that was also a group effort to coin it. ITF has a habit of disrespecting where they came from. When Choi branched off, he taught north Koreans, I don't see an issue, but that's when it became taboo to have the two systems communicate to each other and learn. The WTF was to force nationalism on those Kwans to make their own universal system, which is another issue entirely leading to less practical forms and more separation. However, not all of WTF was made with incomplete instruction with impractical techniques. It is important to respect how ITF fights, but their roots are not deep, Choi did not have much experience before making that switch. He was taught by one person in japan, earned his 2nd degree when coined the term that's it. How can a second degree claim to be above the Kwans that were already there? The kwans were using the same heian and naihanchi system as before with roots in Kwon pup (korean kung fu) as well. There was more of a base to go with. That can't be refuted.
It's Chang hon style taekwondo ITF is the organization
is it an unknown style though? Most countries in Europe I've been to practice more ITF than WTF.
I really love both Karate and Taekwondo. Thanks for sharing.
As someone who practices both itf taekwon-do and shotokan karate this was a nice surprise
Haha same here.
Is it difficult to train both arts at the same time? Like is it hard to remember some movements from both the arts?
@@Simex679 tbh Ive never had a problem getting mixed up or anything, I started both as a white belt around the same time so got the basics down and went from there, I found that doing two similar but different arts helped me understand them better, maybe it's just me but when I train karate I train karate and vice versa never had an issue, taekwon-do definitely brought my kicks along faster though 🙂 I work very early shifts so had no problem training both twice a week in the evenings, I was lucky to have very good teachers
@@hellcla5 bro Thank you so much I needed this response because I've been asking people if it's ok to practice the two arts at the same time and most people said to stick to one art get a black belt than focus on the next art, because apparently I'm only gonna stress out my brains 😂, now I know that there is nothing wrong with doing two arts at the same time.🙏🏽😁 I really appreciate your reply!!!
@@hellcla5 I'm a black belt in ITF...1st Dan. I'm definitely appreciating karate, more and more, these days. I definitely want to practice it, most likely Shotokan and a Chinese martial art as well.
What kind of differences did you see between karate and ITF taekwondo?
*Sign Wave → Sine Wave
Taekwondo ITF inherited karate thecniques, the general Choi learned karate when he studied in Japan during the second world war, but he combined taekion and song bak ji tradiotional korean artial marts, in this ITF Taekwon-do it focusses on using many kicks instead punches
The basic stance, zenkutsu dachi is different. Way of punch or zuki is also different
The arm chambering (during blocks) and pulling of the back leg.
I am a heathen. I do not see a difference between the two, just variations on stance and execution. I know; I'm terrible.
I practice both so I'd say the use of sine wine in itf technique, shotokan karate has much lower stances, sparring in itf is continous rather than one hit based like karate kumite, itf heavier on kicks and kicking variations, karate that I've done anyway had more grappling, clinching in bunkai, Chambers for blocks are different
My very first dojo (retrospectively) was an ITF dojo. Watching this was a trip down memory lane to my early teens.
Technically that would be an ITF Dojang
한국에서는 TKD의 시장점유율이 WT가 압도적이라 ITF는 물론이거니와 ITF-Karate 관계에 대한 자료 모두 항상 외국에서 찾아보고 있는 실정입니다.(저 역시 ITF 수련자임에도 불구하구요!) 좋은 콘텐츠 만들어주어서 감사합니다.
Yusuke San, Thank you for your sharing!
As a former ITF practitioner (and eternal student), I can say you were doing quite well. In fact, your positions and posture were all exemplary for your first few times. The only thing you truly seem to struggle with is the transitions themselves. Your movements between positions/katas was not only unsure (as one might expect, given its your first time), but incredibly stiff/rigid. If I have one suggestion, it would be for you to practice the transitions from punch to block to rest in random order (I.E: punch, block, punch, rest, block, punch, etc.) until you can get used to moving with the momentum behind said motions and gain better fluidity.
ah yes my problem for 25 yrs... RELAX between...lol
the first exercise isnt a tul, its a saju, which means: four directional exercise.
there are two basic ones in ITF, but alot of schools have students come up with their own to become better.
Exactly. Not patterns, but pre-patterns.
I've heard their purpose is to teach sine wave movement. If so, I finally have an explanation of their purpose. The pre-pattern explanation never made any sense to me.
They existed before sine wave.
This is what I came to comments to say. Saju Jirugi and Saju Maki (four directional punch and four directional block respectfully) are technical exercises to teach foot movement and the first stance. The first Tul (pattern) is taught at the second belt.
@@moominpic Good point. Then I'm back to thinking the pre pattern explanation doesn't make sense. What distinguishes them from a pattern. What's the essential difference?
i myself am currently a blue belt in ITF Tae Kwon-Do in the UK and i think its really nice seeing that you are willing to try out other martial arts with an unbiased opinion
As a first dan in ITF: you did it a lot better than most people do when they do it at first
also, thanks for shedding some light on our style! It's a shame most people think of the objectively inferior WTF when they think of TaeKwon-Do, hopefully that will change
For sure. It sucks that ITF isn't more represented. Watching this makes me kinda nostalgic, I'm a second Dan but haven't trained in a while
actually some of this moves is familiar too karate so yeah the downward block or gedan barai and the oi zuki but slightly different
'
For the first time trying to use all the new details in taekwondo movements, you did it quite nicely. Good job
Is so cute see someone starting tkd and doing saju, it reminds me 10 yrs back when I'm wearing my white belt that means innocence and purity's. Ah, so many memory's of days learning and walking slowly with some friends to home. I hope u enjoy the experience
I started off in shotokan as a child and started ITF taekwondo when I wen to university. I found sine wave so weird initially but it generates so much more power in tul. Glad to have trained in both.
I congratulate you Sir on looking at the differences objectively, unlike some commentators who like to dismiss on the basis of a closed mind. I studied Karate (not Shotokan) for 3 years a long time ago and in many ways, despite vast differences in philosophy and movement, it set me up well to begin studying ITF Taekwon-Do which I study to this day. WT Taekwondo (note the absence of the hyphenation!) is very different again. I have many friends who are WT Masters and train WT occasionally for a very different experience.
Keep up the good work!
(Addendum. The foot angle on the walking stance is no more than 25 degrees, not 45)
I study ITF style Tae Kwon Do, but my teacher does not do the Sine Wave. So basically, we do our forms similar to our Tang Soo Do and Shotokan cousins.
Same
How though? Are you affiliated with ITF? Because, if you go to seminars wouldn't the grand masters try to correct you? I remember the dojangs in my country really didn't do sine wave for a long time but that was because we were cut off from the larger ITF bodies for awhile. Travel and communication were harder way back when.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 My understanding is, there are multiple ITF organizations, and not all do the Sine Wave. Indeed, it wasn't until late in General Choi's career that he introduced the Sine Wave to forms. But as you can see from comments, Masters and Grandmasters around the world did not all adopt this variation.
I am no Grandmaster, but I don't see any benefit from the Sine Wave other than to make it look a little different from Shotokan and Tang Soo Do, and that is not a good enough reason, IMO, to change how millions of people do forms.
So in a nutshell, if my teacher retired and closed his Dojang, I suppose I might find myself having to go elsewhere, and if the only other ITF schools did the Sinewave, I suppose I would have to adapt. But in the scheme of things, how we do our forms is not something I am too worried about. 3 1/2 years ago, I started a new martial art having previously studied Tang Soo Do for 3 years. I started as a white belt and worked my way up to 1st Dan. I can learn a new set of forms, or learn to do my forms a different way if that is what my teacher expects.
@@martintanz9098 I still don't get how an ITF school can do without sine wave. They stress that at every seminar. I think it has practical benefits. I see it as something you do whilst applying the pulling hand. I also see it as you allowing your opponent to support your body mass as you crash into them. I see nothing wrong with it.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 ITF did without the Sine Wave until the 1980s. I know there are different theories about how to generate power, and that is fine. My teacher sticks with the original old school Tae Kwon Do, (except when he doesn't :))
I was looking forward for this video! Thanks, sensei Yusuke! ITF is my favourite style of TKD!
That gravity use..., Mabuni Kenei wrote many years ago a way of moving and therefore hitting which used gravity (Hiza o Nuku or making the knee disappear) which is the same concept but instead of going up before the move, you just let yourself fall forward and down, you can see it in the opening of Passai/Bassai Dai. It is something that Aragaki sensei also studied so probably it is not a different concept but a different way to apply it.
A good method of training it is Toboku Ho (you can find it in Karate Do Nyumon written by Mabuni Kenwa and Nakasone Genwa).
Yes - As a Shitoryu student/teacher (Shukokai), I teach w/ body mechanics as the source of everything. If you’re interested (since my methods are a bit different from “standard” WKF style), please look-up “52 Masters” series on TH-cam (or Amazon Prime in April). I’m Ed Smith of Shukokai. Let me know your thoughts.
@@edsmith5848 I will take a look on this holidays! Thank you for your response!
ITF TKD and karate are of the close same family martial arts. With Shotokan background, Yusuke can easily understand and pick up what the TKD master is sharing with him👊💪👏
Contents like these are exactly why I have my utmost respect for you! If you could find a WT Taekwondo dojang, definitely try doing a Poomsae!
3rd dan ITF Taekwondo here - great to see videos like this which show/explain the comparisons between different styles! It's very interesting to me to see the very solid+powerful karate style being applied to the fluid "bouncy" (bodyweight into the movement) ITF TKD style. Thanks for sharing (three years ago!)
I love the open mindedness. I think you coped very well with the session. The important thing about taekwon do sine wave movement is that it should be natural. As you start your movement you relax, this causes the body to drop slightly, you then raise your body and drop as you complete the technique.
3rd Dan ITF instructor here, thank you for this series!!!
I think that the difference between Kata (Karate) and Tul (Taekwon-Do ITF), is that Kata try to practice Bunkai (application), while Tul try to apply biomechanical principles.
What does that even mean? The same bunkai that work in karate Kata also work in ITF Tuls BECAUSE the hand techniques and some leg forms are the same. In fact you can take analyses of Shaolin Taolu and apply them to ITF Tuls.
I do that ALL the time.
Good stuff, nice to see cross training.
Reminds me of my mma days when I was training with Judoka and MT guys alongside Karate and TKD.
We can learn something from everywhere.
People who say any art is useless are generally coming from a place of ignorance.
Karate vs ITF Taekwondo sparring please
Timing of punch:. I practice a version of ITF, and have practiced Tai Chi. Tai Chi has a concept the six harmonies. The hands move with the feet. Knees move with elbows. Shoulders move with hips.
Shotokan based movements, without sine wave. Wow you’re doing perfect WTF Taekwondo! Many TKD guys in south korea will praise your good “Pumsae”
I´m always facinated to see how you show the importance of learn with the ones that follow different ways. Thanks for help improving the art, Yusuke san!
Taekwondo is so great because . As a Taekwondo master. We learn from other styles of martial arts. Never stop learning. Every defeat is lesson.
As an ITF practitioner, I say you did great, especially for your first time.
While performing Saju Jirugi you were making the same mistake I used to make myself (which is opening your hands while relaxing before every action).
But beautifuly done, anyway. It's hard for most of other martial artist to coordinate the sine wave, but didn't seem hard for you.
GOOD JOB!!!
your cup is full with karate, it shines through very brightly... try to relax, speed and grace over strength and power.
your kicks will be as fast or even faster then your hands.
"slow" kicks in air, "snappy" kicks on bag, your knees will last longer.
I study Tang Soo Do, which is very similar to TKD. For the front stance, here's a way to think about it. You want to be on a pair of skis, not a skateboard. This applies to not only the width but also the position of the back foot. Make sure the rear knee is locked straight or the stance lacks power. For the hip rotation, it's the same side as the technique. Thrust the hip forward for an attack (punch, kick, etc.) and pull it rearward on a block. So, using the left hand low block (ha dan maki) starting from the chamber position (left hand by right cheek) and left hip pointed forward. What you want to do is pull that left hip back and allow that to throw the block. As you do this, your right foot will rotate from "skateboard" to "skis," your right knee will lock out, and your weight should be centered but driving forward. Here's a good video that breaks it down and you might even recognize the form: Tang Soo Do - KI CHO HYUNG IL BU - Basic Form # 1 - step by step by TheSenseiBill. Note that this is the artistic expression, not the practical application. As the Masters you worked with demonstrate, practical application uses smaller movements that stay closer to the body.
You just surprises me more and more with your way of approaching other martial arts congrats on that! Glad you fixed your timing 6ou we're pretty off at the beginning lol nice video man
the 1st thing which i learn from poomsaes is the measures...to the point were you start you finish on the same point...its just incredible
As ITF Taekwondo Practitioner this is great video.
The dropping of the body helps to increase body mass and make your moves more powerful. Along with the hip rotation when you thrust your relevant hip forward for kinetic energy, you can generate an awful lot of power. Speed - Distance - Timing.
For Taekwondo, most movements will have sign wave in them. Thats why he is moving basically down-up-down. This helps generate more power, and generally looks better.
After 9 years in Karate I did train TKD, mainly WTF, but I also learned ITF Poomse/forms, which are very different from the Taeguk forms.
I was never a fan of the Sign Wave in ITF forms, largely because I can from a Karate background!
Same as the parallel stance front punch. That Is using sign wave, in the form of foot spring. This means you only go up-down, whilst keeping the knees straight.
I use to practice Taekwondo. You did well for your first time.
O God so great. Karate n taekwondo ❤️ please make videos on taekwondo with Karate 🙏
Analyzing shotokan to tkd is like focusing on the differences between a set of knives when what is needed in today's world is possesssion of the spoon, the fork, and the knife.
I am not an ITF person but it look good for the most part. You are doing more of a double hip like you do on Tekki. The ITF person is moving the hip away as he is stepping and then moving the hip forward as he land.
I advise you go see a WTA school most in American and Korea. The Presidents in the past of ITF and WTF were students of the blue wave schools. Traditional Shotokan was only used for defense. Shotokan original started from Goju Ryu karate which came from Okinawa by Sensei Chosun Miyagi where he learned in china.
Beautiful movements. You did a good job!
Also you only have yourself to blame for having people ask you to do this! You made the comment in another video along the lines of "I wonder how it would look like if I tried these forms in karate". Ever since then people wanted to see it lol.
Your form is great for having just tried really shows that martial arts intellect when you adapt so quick, i do Muay Thai and boxing , so while i could replicate the movements they wouldn't be nearly as fluid as yours.
This was a very enjoyable video, thank you for posting it. Tae kwon do is partially derived from Shotokan karate (General Choi, the "father of the kwon do" was a nidan), so it's interesting seeing both of them side by side. One minor note: it is "sine" wave (from trigonometry) rather than "sign" wave. Great job on the video!
んにちは I am following your channel since you review the ITF Team Pattern competition. Thank you for taking your time to try other styles and trying to understand it, that is the right way to do things before creating an opinion. As an ITF instructor I can tell you that you are doing great, the power is there and the movements are OK. A bit stiff but is normal since your style is Karate. I don't know if the Sabunim mentioned this to you but Saju Jirugi and Saju Makgi are not considered patterns or Tul's, they are more basic exercises that introduce the movements for the first Tul Chon-Ji. Another thing if you were my student I will correct will be rotation of the wrist. Our blocks are also a type of attack, all our blocks employ a type of wrist rotation that helps to generate more power and concentrate the energy in one direction. よくがんばったね
In TKD ITF the moves are up and down like the waves and when a wave go down relaxes the whole power
Great video!
The traditional technique is geometry. A strongly bent leg in a stance is a slow kick to the opponent. The wave is only a principle. But the strike technique is a little more than that. We taught them to jump.
Well done sir, training in a different style is so hard as your body will fight you all the way due to muscle memory. I think you did a very good job.
I studied Shotokan when in my youth and made it to purple belt. After a 20 year break, I started ITF TKD. Both styles have their pros and cons. I would say one is better or worse than the other, but just different interpretation of a similar technique.
This brings back memories of highschool. Learned Tae Kwon Do for a while. But the club got disbanded because it was deemed "illegal", due to ours was a branch from outside of the national Tae Kwon Do organization. 😅
But, I noticed the "swing-slide" movements before and during the punches executed. I remembered also that there is a different way on how to block a center attack. I noticed that in Karate, the "Uke" is done with a wrist twist and and exposes the "inside" part of the wrist in line with the thumb. In Tae Kwon Do, it is mainly the "outer" part of the wrist that is used to block.
Pak-San's back kick is nice! He lifted his kicking leg to the side and then kicked - like Sensei Sugiyama (JKA Chicago) taught. Not the old fashion JKA method of keeping the leg in the vertical plain (which has a short effective distance window).
If your a Shotokan Instructor you may see the some the stances are similar. I have learned from the WTA the traditional blue wave school. You can see the similarly of shotokan forms. WTF and ITf were basically sports competition , WTA is more traditional from on Chungdokwan.
Im 4th dan ITF, Im not practicing at the moment . Considering that Choi Hong Hi was 2 dan Karate Shotokan, and combine it with Tae kyon, I find several similarities and differences in positions and how execute technics. But the big difference is the undulating motion.
I studied Rhee TKD in my youth IIRC by then they had broken with the ITF. I graded to 7th Kup, messed up my 6th Kup grading, by the time my next grading came up I was training at a 5th kup level but finances got in the way of me being able to grade, half a year later I couldn't afford to keep up my training so I dropped out of formal Martial arts training.
I practice ITF TKD and today I got my yellow belt, so I'm not the most experienced, but your power is good you just need to work on the sinewave and putting one fist on top of the other when blocking. Breathing is also important.
Nice!
I also find difficult that change of height between poses due to sine wave, we do not do that in taekwondo WTF.
You can watch a quite good demonstration of WTF poomsae (like karate kata) looking for Sejong Taekwondo Dojang videos, for example. The whole list of poomsae is fine, I would say Sipjin, Cheonkwon or Taebek.
That was cool.
I’m an ITF taekwon do black belt and student since 1981. The rise in stance is a relatively new thing. Before we did our stances and most techniques more similar to traditional karate. Don’t feel bad at all. Your techniques would be more similar to older practitioners such as myself.
I do itf tkd and I can notice a few differences between how he does it and how my teacher has us do it but they are very minor differences
A huge difference between taekwodo and karate is in karate, whilst doing movements, you look almost stiff all the way through. Its as if your tensing between each movement. Whereas in Taekwondo we always relax until the very final moment then we tense up and use breath control to keep the movement... well... controlled. This helps with momentum, helping to create more power. This also helps increase your speed when performing that movement.
Same principle applies in karate -- it's called kime. You contract at the point of impact and then relax.
Source: I practice TKD and Shotokan.
I train both Taekwondo WT and ITF
Since Coronavirus break, I really miss the them
General choi founder of taekwondo itf is a 2 dan on shotokan karate
Well done 👏
Only thing I noticed that was very different is the weight distribution of your stance. In Taekwondo the "default" forward-facing stance has a weight distribution of 50-50, looks like karate has more weight on the front leg. And the side facing stance has a weight distribution of 30/70, 70% being on the back leg. Reason for this is cause it makes it harder to sweep you, as if someone were to kick your front leg in you wouldn't fall, and it makes it a lot easier getting the front leg up for a side kick to engage, or to stop an engage. It's pretty similar to how Muay Thai from Thailand stands, they have almost their entire weight on the back leg, ready to check kicks with their front shin.
Like the ITF Taekwondo forms a lot more than the WTF ones. Feels more authentic, the punching is good.
Since you did ITF teul, you should now try Kukkiwon (WT/WTF) taekwondo poomsae (kata/forms) and gyeorugi (kumite/sparring).
I remember you interviewed that one poomsae competitor from the Philippines, Rodolfo -- he does Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo poomsae. It would be cool to practice the poomsae with a local instructor and then send Rodolfo the video to see what he thinks!
I did tkd for a year,. Seemed to be kicking for about 90 per cent of the time,. I prefer karate practice now,. Katas are better as well I think
What's wrong with kicking? I find it more effective than punching.
@@anurag23611 Its harder to gain the needed flexibility for everyone.
You did well. The biggest issue was lacking in relaxation.
Now you need to try Sambo
Oss !
I can't tell you how much I have struggled with this sine wave. shotokan karate has dominated me.
Very interesting! Thanks for the good issue this time.
I'm a 2nd degree in WT (formerly WTF) and the front stance is different. WTF is narrower. One fist length apart. When transitioning to punch from a front stance. We don't "hop" during the transition. Our head stays at the same height during the transition.
This is interesting to watch.
This is awesome!!!!!! Can I make a request of you trying to do this with WT Kukkiwon TaeKwonDo as well? :D
I also support this request, it would be great a Shotokan / Kukkiwon Taekwondo video
Baek Doo San and Hwoarang's Taekwondo
Baek Doo San is WTF. Hwoarang is ITF.
@@Samperor Other way around.
@@endlesspath250 I just checked
the wiki.
@@endlesspath250 Hwa Rang is the pattern to black tag (8th tul), ITF.
@@moominpic but their styles don't match dobok it's deliberately done. Hwoarang is mainly in wt stance while baek is more itf combos
The Tul/Kata demonstrated here is pretty similar to Shito Ryu Karate's Shiho Zuki Kata.
I do not do ITF, however at our Hapkido school we do use a similar rising and falling motion in our technique, also referred to as the sine wave movement. This is a technique fairly common in the Korean arts.
As far as I understand the sine wave was something Choi Hong Hee came up with in his later years and is pretty unique to ITF. It's interesting to hear there's a similar motion in Hapkido! What to me is also interesting is that it also looks a lot like the poombalgi movement in taekkyon which probably evolved from korean dancing.
@@matthijsvanwijhe864 I would be inclined to agree. It seems that many principles are common throughout the martial arts, but with varied names. With full respect intended, this leads me to believe that many of the developers of these arts simply labeled a concept and not necessarily invented them. I would say martial artists can take a concept and apply it to a different movement. For instance, the sine wave in hapkido is often used to deliver strikes, like many arts, but it also applies to throwing techniques.
@@DrNikolaiLee That makes sense!
Well done. I practice both Traditional Tae Kwon Do (W/O sine wave) and GoJu Ryu. With some boxing mixed in as well. The state of mind one has to transition to, as to alter method of technique from one to the other is challenging but rewarding.
Thank you, Yusuke sensei~
Funny thing and fact first 3 katas in taekwondo in australia are the same as kyokushin OSU
You should try koryo I think it looks beautiful being performed
Correct sine amplitude is what feels natural for you! So you did fine.
i do practice itf taekwondo and even though im almost but not blackbelt, here's something that ive noticed, see how the itf taekwondo student when doing forms he slides his feet, just elevate them a little bit, you, in the other hand, elevate your feet more and hit the foot with the ground when you finish a movement, with the little bit i know, you shouldnt elevate your feet, just slide them, hope this helps
Very interesting!! I would love to see a video where you visit Lee Dong Hee or Jeong In Cheol. They are two WT taekwondo masters that focus heavily on self-defense and bunhae (bunkai). The latter is actually the grandson (I believe) of the vice president of the Ohdo kwan, the kwan where the founder of ITF (Choi Hong Hee) came from.
Still trying to see the diferences... nice video.. show the devocion about those diciplicines
you should also try WT(F) Taekwondo. Seeing as he was doing the Tul and being a former TKD WT(F) 3rd Dan I think his punches were high (chin level) while yours were solar plexus levels
ITF forms are traditional kata form Won kuk lee was the founder of Chungdokwan. Grandmaster Won Kuk Lee knew a traditional form of korea called Taekkyon it was a kicking form. Later he when to Japan for college during Japanese Occupation He that became a student of founder of Shotokan karate Gichen Funakoshi. Came back to Korean combining both skills Taekkyon kicking and Shotokan skills developed Chungdokwan the first school to open was called Blue Wave School est. 1944 in korea, All korean military and korean police trained Chungdokwan. General Hong Hi choi who was a eourth degree in Chungdokwan studied und Grandmaster Won Kuk Lee. It one of the last traditional kwan school. There were Tang Soo DO, Moon do kwan which there techniques come from china. General Choi try to combine all korean martial arts to the name Taekwondo in 1955 after korean war to combine Unity of all korean Kwans school. North Korean still practice Chungdokwan technique. Grandmaster Son duk Sun who Won kuk lee gave to school to before korean war. Grandmaster Son duk Sun. Became the leader instructor of all Chungdokwan schools. He refused to join ITF and he started the WTA assoc. That is how ITF was founded
You did very well only thing is a little leak on the front knee but that would just take time to get used to.
Wow grate technic from the master itf
The itf tae kwon do we are sons of shotokan karate do . Very good sensei the move and relax of saju hirugi or semiform of atack do and oss
TKD is very interesting when you remember it came from Shotokan and start comparing the two
Shotokan and Taekkyon
I can see glimpses of shotokan in that tul
I recently started Ji Do Kwan and it's very similar to taekwondo it looks like. There's really not a lot of information about Ji Do Kwan out there.
The original 9 kwans are all TaeKwonDo
@@adandyguyinspace5783 Thanks, makes sense.
You should try WT Taekwondo too, there are some differences that might be interesting for you to practice.