Honestly, it was a kindness that Herb died so early on. If he had seen what Bojack did to Charlotte, Sarah Lynn’s death and the entire Xerox of a Xerox interview… that likely would have hurt him to a level I can’t even describe.
Yeah, Herb wanted so badly for the Horsin' Around cast to all to stick together and be like a big family. I think the Sarah Lynn situation would have broken him, especially since she died at the observatory of all places. If he saw the person BoJack had become...
I feel like Herb’s semi-crush on Bojack is so incredibly well written. Herb saw the best in Bojack, even when the rest of the world didn’t, and even if Bojack didn’t reciprocate, Herb accepted that and didn’t back down from their friendship. Just shows how mature, empathetic and caring Herb is. He puts everyone before him
@@sher618 It depends I suppose. From what I remember he didn't do it at a detriment to himself; he kept himself fine enough to continue to do good, so that's alright. But if, for instance, you gave up all your money, your house, your food, and everything you owned just to do good, that would be at a severe detriment to yourself even if it may help others, and it could prevent you from helping others more efficiently too. :)
The contradiction of them bonding and cracking jokes like it was 1988 at the dinner table to them fighting after Herb says he will never forgive Bojack is the most interesting. It shows, for me, that they still have a soft spot for each other, but the damage was done and even reminiscing cannot change that.
Herb was trying to teach him a lesson. He's not even angry when telling Bojack he doesn't forgive him the first time. It's only when Bojack persisted for an apology does Herb get angry. That says a lot too.
I think I’m going to have this moment with a friend of mine very soon. Having someone so close to you do something so damaging to your friendship that it has to end for your own health and family, regardless of your past. Bojack is always so goddamn poignant
Rather than show that Bojack had a soft spot for him, I think it's more reflective of how Bojack regrets how he treated Herb and wishes he could go back to earlier in their relationship. Even though the last encounter he had with Herb was hostile, in Bojack's subconscious he and Herb are still bantering like in the old days. If you look to one of their earlier interactions, the bit BJ and Herb do together at the dinner table is almost exactly the same as the one they did when they were younger. Since the Herb at the dinner table isn't actually Herb, but the Herb in Bojack's mind, it shows how BJ misses him and still remembers their relationship positively, even though the actual Herb held him in contempt until his last breath.
Had BoJack just left with Diane instead of gone back to keep pestering there is a chance that reconciling would have been possible. But of course, BoJack just didn't know when to quit.
@@diamondinthesky4771 nail on the head. They had a nice dinner, there was some bitterness but at the same time Herb had a life he called amazing, cancer and all, and even enjoyed getting back into joke banter. It wasn't the shouting match of aggrievement and anger Bojack thought it would be. It was actually a nice dinner. There was a chance for possibly others in the months before the car crash, even more if the crash hadn't happened because his cancer went into remission. But because Bojack insisted on getting his very special episode out of a real event happening in Herb's life, no repair was possible.
Find fact here: when Angela talks to Bojack, look at how Bojack reacts. He acts submissive, rubbing his hands, keeping his head down. He acts more like a kid getting scolded by…a mom. And Angela’s words are extremely similar to what Beatrice would have said: to keep on singing/acting otherwise no one will ever care about you again. If you really focus on the words briefly, you’d think Angela and Beatrice were the same.
@nationalinstituteofcheese3012 in the episode she last appears in at Season 6. She reveals she was dating a woman and also revealed that Herb wasn't in any real danger of losing his job in the first place (which meant she fired him out of sheer enjoyment rather than backlash from the right wing nutters), which implied if Bojack had a spine he could've called her bluff.
Yep it’s certainly a good luck at how real power dynamics can warp a person. But also how privledge can protect yourself from real cos sciences. And yeah, while she ain’t a saint the whole point was that BOJACK had to make that call to be a better person. If it wasn’t her enticing him, something else woulda. Now would everyone’s life be. Better if Bojack said her. Stays? I can’t tell. Sarah would have been still raped. I can’t say if she’d be drunk because if I recall when herb left Bojack left alcohol around. So herb being around might have protected that. There’s also nothing stopping Bojack from being a selfish prick which we see he kinda was to an extent prior to herbs firing. Plus if Todd, Princess Caroline, and Diane are any hints in this what if, i believe Bojack might drive herb away or by making him worse. Remember, herb LIVED. Fulfilling life AWAY from back and Hollywood. @@lukerosales5879
@bradhorowitz2765 yeah. I had no sympathy for Bojack at that point, but Herb was the real victim. Bojack may have been coerced but he was the coward in that scenario. Only thing I hated was that Angela acted like she was the victim when she said "my job was on the line". No it wasn't, she was practically stroking herself over the power she held over Bojack and Herb's future and knew exactly who would hold the knife and who would get stabbed in the back. Bojack may have been manipulated, but he was no victim and neither was Angela.
Fantastic analysis. The fact that philbert, the one thing he did as a favor to be a good friend, is what got him out of the hole he was stuck in for being known as the horse from horsin around is incredible. I never even thought about that
@@villabacano videos can be posted as "unlisted," wherein people can only view it with the URL or link. Thus a comment can be left by someone with the link before the video is switched from "unlisted" to "public"
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 If you've been on TH-cam long enough to immediately check the community tab for all of your questions, then you should also know that there are lots of different kinds of people online and not all of them use or even know how to use every function on every platform.
@@5h4d0w5l1f3 They are old enough to learn to do that. Don't use ignorance as an excuse for this. Or maybe I am placing too much credit on humanity being smart enough to get their way around things. If they can survive this long without dying, they most certainly can get around using this site that has been designed to be friendly to use even for the dumbest of people on this earth...
Bojacks witers go back and forth on if a apology is enough. Herb says its not and bojack will never be forgive. In season 6. Hollyhock says an apology is all she needed. Then hollyhock and Tawnie stop arguing.
@@sftrkrt07 Well, it all depends on circumstance. And most of all it depends on the person you're apologising to. If they forgive you either because they are forgiving or maybe because they want to leave it all behind them then it's their choice. That is the important part here. You can't just apologise and be done with it. Sometimes people don't forgive you and of course you have to actual reflect.
@@sftrkrt07 Keep in mind the gravity of what Tawnie and Hollyhock were fighting over compared to what Herb and BoJack were. Hollyhock really just needed an apology to move on but an apology would not be enough for Herb and BoJack to move forward. It's not just about an apology but what it's for and what it means.
There's something I find really comforting about Herb not forgiving Bojack. I've seen a few people say he was petty for holding onto his grudge for the rest of his life, but I suspect those people are of the mindset that you're obligated to forgive anybody who apologises to you no matter what. Sometimes people aren't really sorry for the things they did, and they'll hurt you again if given the chance. You're not petty for not wanting to let yourself be hurt over and over. I don't think I've ever seen any other piece of media offer that kind of validation.
Exactly this. I suspect the people who think someone who apologizes should be automatically forgiven no matter what, have done something pretty bad in the past and still feel guilty lol. Understandable, but that's not how it works. It's gotta be mutual, and accepting an apology is absolutely not an obligation. Sometimes you just gotta live with that.
Bojack didn't even just do something dickish that hurt Herb's career years ago. It's the fact he effectively cut him out of his life after and treated him like a stranger to appeal to american homophobes and then at the last second came to him too apologize just so he wouldn't feel like a shitty person. Even if you're coming from the perspective that a grudge even over all that would be petty, Herb wasn't only doing it for the grudge and was in the end just trying to give Bojack a reality check.
literally bojack didn’t care about herb at all he was just seeking closure in hope of clearing his guilty conscience. People don’t realise that selfish apologies do exist
I remember I talked to a friend of mine about this, and I remember he told me that herb not forgiving bojack was so surprising to him because he had never seen it before, he had never even considered the fact that you could just not forgive someone for doing something terrible
Tbf, it is wrong that Bojack never contacted Herb after him getting fired. However, just because someone is your friend, and just because someone helped you get that job, it doesn't mean you have to walk out on a job to if your friend get fired. People are inherently selfish and you can't expect someone to do something like this. I wouldn't expect a friend to leave a job because I got fired even if I referred him and I would also not leave a job for that reason either.
I'm glad the show did a realistic conclusion to Herb and Bojack's relationship. I feel like forgiveness is treated as something to give out, but in reality forgiveness is a heavy, important, and mutual action.
@@veronicapiccinini7956 forgiveness is such a weird thing--especially the way people talk about it. When people ask for forgiveness, they're often asking you to extend your trust again, to be once again vulnerable. That's how "forgiveness" is weaponized so much
@@jordanjoestar-turniptruck Forgiveness is a choice. It’s a choice to let bygones be bygones and have hope that future will be better. I’m tired of seeing people online refuse forgiveness. In the great words of avatar aang, “revenge is like a 2 headed rat viper: while you’re watching your enemy go down your being poisoned yourself.” It’s easy to seek revenge, and it’s even easier to do nothing, yet still hold anger and ill will towards someone who wronged you. But holding on to negative emotions will only hurt you and bring you mental anguish. Forgiveness doesn’t mean forgetting. Forgiving someone doesn’t mean you have to trust them again. But forgiveness means you let your animosity go. Forgiveness is a hard choice to make, but it’s the only way to heal.
It’s always sad to see just how much Herb cared about Bojack, and how shitty he was to let the success get so big in his head that he left his friend behind. Bojack 100% could’ve gotten another role, yet he was so stuck in the flow of the show that he didn’t wanna take a risk for his good friend. Also I know it’s Bojacks fault but damn Angela in that scene pisses me off, she doesn’t even give him a chance to speak and manipulated his very obvious feelings towards success.
I argue that Bojack not taking the risk even for his friend that got him that role was just him turtling down and hoping this blows over with not much consequences. He was conditioned not to take risks because in his childhood everytime he does anything by his own initiative often gets him a negative reaction from his parents. Him getting this big break was something he couldn't risk losing at this moment, not after hearing Beatrice being perpetually disappointed with whatever he does. I understand why Bojack couldn't risk it, he's both scared to lose the gains he have at the moment and is very much unprepared to do that and deal with all that consequences...
Ikr it's sad how Bojack legit started being the bad guy by manipulation and then later on in the show he still tries to victimize himself really hard but even when he's right no one believes him because he's done too much damage himself
And then it’s revealed in Season 6 that Angela bluffed through her teeth the whole time. That even if Bojack didn’t betray Herb, the former wouldn’t lose his job and fame anyway. Meaning that Bojack’s betrayal was all for nothing
its so depressing how easy bojack let go of their friendship. how do you be friends with someone for decades, have him INSIST that you be the star of his show, be your claim to fame, and not even bother to call or check up on him when he's fired. i cant fathom how little herb meant to bojack
The fact that Bojack never seemed to consider that Herb was more hurt and angry about him abandoning their friendship than about being fired does say a lot about how Bojack really valued Herb for what he did for him in his career, but not about Herb personally. That’s why I can’t help but wonder if Bojack and Herb’s friendship would have ended anyways, even if Bojack had demanded that Herb stay on the show. Most likely, Bojack would constantly remind Herb of how he saved his job anytime Herb disagreed with him or Bojack wanted Herb to do things for him.
With stuff like BPD, which I reckon Bojack has, liking someone can end up causing avoidance because of how strong the anxiety is because their opinion matters, unlike some stranger who means nothing to you. Then if it’s gone on more than a few months without contact, that in itself can become an anxiety, and the person can subconsciously choose to just live with their memory, ever fading and growing less accurate, of the person because while it’s still in flux it could still technically be anything, even though after 5, 10 years he definitely hates you anyway. Which isn’t to diminish how much it sucks to be on the other side, or to deny how twisted that logic is, but nevertheless there is a logic which flows from caring about a person coupled with avoidant tendencies (which BoJack is absolutely full of, considering how often he goes on benders instead of facing his issue at hand).
Maybe Bojack was genuinely terrified of Herb dressing him down for something he didn't want to cause? If that was the case, he was completely justified for that, given how horribly Herb treated him in spite of his heartfelt apology. I find it really weird that no one is willing to empathize with Bojack or understand just how difficult of a situation that is. Herb didn't even stop to think for a SECOND about how painful what Bojack went through was.
@@BrianSandler You could've had a point here, if Bojack tried to apologize, and not just try to get Herb to say "it doesn't matter that You've betrayed me, and treated me like I was nothing to You", just so Bojack can feel better. Bojack went through a lot, but Herb went through worse, he was revealed as gay to the public, which wasn't approved at that time, he was later fired from his show, and his best friend stabbed him in the back and then abandoned, imagine how it feels? Just think that You're getting fired from Your job, You ask Your friend who works with You to try and help You with this, he doesn't help, and then completely ignores You later. Pretty much, Bojack used Herb, and when he wasn't that needed anymore, Bojack left him. Herb had the right to not accept the apology, especially since Bojack didn't even try to actually apologize, and as I said, was just trying to make himself feel better about what he did, which isn't an apology. Bojack was a victim of abuse before, but this doesn't justify his actions later on, the show is about a complex character, who is sympathetic to a degree, but who does many wrong things, betraying Herb is one of those.
I love that Herb didn't forgive Bojack. It made sense and is completely understandable. I also think it's what Bojack needed. If Herb forgave him then he would've thought what he did to Herb was okay since he was forgiven.
@@jordanjoestar-turniptruck Even the way he talks seems like he's teaching Bojack a lesson. He doesn't get mad, he plainly states that he's never going to forgive him. But when Bojack doesn't learn his lesson, Herb gets mad. Because even he has limits
@@genericname2747 it wasn't even that Bojack wasn't leaning his lesson, it's that he was ARGUING with him about not being forgiven. It clearly was never an apology in the first place. That would piss anyone off.
I also think that it's a bit interesting how, at least in the beginning, Herb seems to still becoming to terms with being gay, as he was sort of dating Charlotte at the time, but then in a moment of excitement he plants a big kiss on BoJack. He trusted BoJack so much in that moment, and then to see the complete break-down of their relationship in the end just serves a further reminder of how much BoJack hurt him over the years.
The way Bojack tries to apologize to Herb feels off. He's like "I feel bad about what happened", not like "I'm sorry that I let you down and didn't call". That doesn't sound like someone who really feels sorry about it. Great analysis as always Johnny!
And the fact that Herb (though he clearly knew) had to ask Bojack, "So, you're apologizing?" also shows that Bojack's so-called apology was weak sauce. That's why if you're going to genuinely apologize for something, specifically say what you''re apologizing for.
It’s a “backhanded apology”. Like “I’m sorry I’m not sorry” or “I’m sorry I didn’t know you are still holding grudges” or “Sorry that you were offended”. I believe he took it from his mother’s unapologetic toxicity I hate those people, they’re irritating
Yeah, that’s a good point. He can’t really be sorry for it if he doesn’t know what he’s apologizing for. And if you don’t know why you’re apologizing, then you don’t have the knowledge necessary to improve your behavior.
Something I think this episode really shows is how Bojack doesn't really do anything on his own. He gets everything he wants by being a coward, passively getting attention due to others. Bojack doesn't call him because he feels bad, but still expected herb to just accept that: as he would. He's a coward for not being a good person. He fights a literal cancer patient because he feels like he's a victim.
I mean, given his childhood where every time he does something by his own his own parents tore him down for something trivial, do you really believe he'd do something proactive and independent of others?
@@skurwysyn100 "Old habits die hard". Besides, I am talking about Bojack when he is in his 20's, Bojack in his 50's may be different but strands of that 20's persona lingers on in him...
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 I think you can acknowledge how someone’s childhood may have affected them and still hold them accountable for their flaws. Bojack is a flawed person, and while he has sympathetic reasons behind some of his flaws, those reasons aren’t necessarily enough to negate that he has harmed the people in his life. And his passiveness is ultimately something that has on multiple occasions deeply hurt those he cares about.
The fact that Herb was mad that he never reached out, NOT that he went back on his word, but that he didn’t reach out. Something so simple, so easy. He was just mad that Bojack never talked to him afterward. That’s haunting
And it makes total sense. It's like he portrayed him ans never cared to make it right or make sure he was okay. Herb definitely would've gotten around to understanding that Bojack felt forced to fire him, and would've found a common ground. But he was cut from the TV project and nothing, after all those years of close friendship. He abandoned him like everyone else in that industry. (Except for the child cast of course).
It always struck me as strange that Bojack was mad when Herb didn't forgive him. Apologizing should be like giving a gift: Sometimes it's an obligation, and sometimes it's freely given, but why should you care what the recipient does with it? Your part in it is over, you can move on.
Its really not that strange if you think of how bojack behaves. Despite how bad he acts and how bad it supposedly makes him feel, he keeps doing it. A. Because if someone gets upset with him, he bails and doesnt have to deal with the consequences of his actions. And B. When he CANT bail, he apologizes because he has to. And most people will usually just accept it and move on. I think Herb was the first person to tell him to his face he wont forgive him. And that goes against most people just accepting the apology and moving on. He was apologizing for mostly selfish reasons. Bc HE felt bad. So when Herb didnt forgive him so he could feel better, he got mad
I took it as bojack being selfish again. Its to comfort himself, not herb. “Well herb is going to die from cancer anyway so i better say sorry and herb wont be hold a grudge on me in death” The thing is that it seemed bojack was still welcome in herbs home before him going into herbs bedroom and demanding his forgiveness. They still couldve been friends.
@@Ihazfunkitty Yeah, he already had what he wanted. Bojack could spend time with his old friend, and act like nothing has ever happened. But then he got greedy. He wanted to stop feeling guilty.
I'm pretty sure Bojack didn't see it that way; from the way he reacted, I think he felt entitled to forgiveness once he apologised, considering how he reiterated that he said he was sorry and trying to convince Herb it was the best thing for the both of them, but Herb saw through that and saw his selfish intentions, and so refused that forgiveness because he felt Bojack didn't deserve it. Bojack, then feeling robbed of feeling good as he felt he deserved Herb's forgiveness, decided to try one last jab at Herb before he left so he could feel better and vindicated of his hurt. It's sort of like when you ask out a pretty girl you've had a crush on for ages, but she says no, and whilst it's totally in her right, some people would feel entitled to her affection due to how much they lingered on it, and become enraged when they feel robbed of a chance. :)
Johnny is the GOAT adult cartoon essay writer - they're all so well written and so insightful, and it's clear how much care went into the making of this and all the other videos.
I love this episode cause it is the best example of how I believe forgiveness is optional. I cannot stand the phrase: "Forgive and forget." People who are truly sorry apologize with actions and not just words. In Bojack's case, he wanted closure. He didn't care or acknowledge how much he truly hurt Herb. Herb is right to be angry and not forgive Bojack. Not once in the 20 years did BoJack reach out to call him, talk to him, write a letter, or just apologize in general up until this point. When someone apologizes for the terrible stuff they've done, they shouldn't just immediately expect to be forgiven. In fact, when I apologize, I go in depth about what I'm sorry about, acknowledge my mistakes, and let the person know that I understand if they don't forgive me. Mind you, I've never messed up to the extent Bojack has, but I've dealt with toxic people who act similar to him.
@Ashy_Inking I've told toxic people, and I quote: "Sorry is not good enough. People who are truly sorry don't continue this pattern of crappy behavior."
Forgive and forget is tough. A cousin of mine, in Halloween 2018, was driving high and drunk. She was a druggie in the family and her addiction turned her so ugly. My uncle and aunt raised her child, who, when born, was hooked on heroin. Seeing a baby withdraw is awful. It was evil. Didnt even phase her. By the mercy of God, she passed out behind the wheel and swerved into an oncoming lane of traffic yet didnt hit anyone and hit some guardrails and trees and was ejected from the car and died on impact. She didnt hurt anyone that night and it was a miracle. She wasnt a good person at all. At my wedding, she stole several hundred dollars from our gift envelopes. To this day, Id pay any price just to read those letters that she stole, it wasnt about the money. Our family just hated her and her drug addicted actions. Once she died.. a go fund me was set up claiming how amazing she was, citing a job she held for 2 months and her baby and claiming her to be a good member of society. ?!?!?!? I was pissed. Just because you die, doesnt make you a good person
This show challenges the narrative that the audience are expected to root for the main character by having said MC be an awful manipulator and predator...
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 Especially since it's a comedy. Comedies often have horrible people as the main characters, but you still like seeing the wacky hijinks they get up to. But here, you eventually want Bojack to stop. It's not funny anymore.
Herb was such a fun, kind and genuine guy, and still not painted as perfect by the narrative, that's really hard but they nailed it! I think I still remember fairly vividly the feeling that was watching Herb not forgiving Bojack and then him kissing Diane out of nowhere, as the first chords of back in the 90's struck. I was very young when I first watched it (I think I was 11 at the time and I watched the show with my parents), but I remember feeling very uncomfortable and confused after that episode, the biggest "you fucked up" moment I had witnessed.
@@sm0kelikeahehim honestly at first the three of us thought it was just "haha funny horse man is miserable and an alcoholic so hilarious" and we didn't know what it hid underneath. Allas, a big porcentage of the viewers thought the same
You know what gets me? At the end, when Herb says “it WAS good to see you.” If Bojack had just left, and maybe called him the next day to joke around, they could have gone out on a high note, maybe not forgiven, but on a good note, instead Bojack tries to force forgiveness so as to not feel bad, and that destroys whatever was left of their relationship.
Hearing Herb say “I do not forgive you” makes me emotional every time. I grew up around people that thought saying I’m sorry, regardless of if they mean it or not, makes the problem go away. Like if you’re still upset then it’s YOUR problem now, not theirs. I didn’t think I could say something like that when I first watched the show. I was outed as non-binary to my dad by my aunt and did NOT get a good reaction. She triggered one of the biggest emotional breakdowns I’ve ever had and she still doesn’t understand why what she did was wrong. If I ever get the chance to tell her “I do not forgive you” to her face I will grab it with both hands. Forgiveness has to be earned, not freely given.
That's awful :( Does your aunt not know how traumatizing that is?? Not only that, but she threw away your consent, privacy, and safety by doing so. Even if it just slipped out by accident (or that she didn't think of anything of it at the time), she should've been understanding of how and why you're greatly upset by it. Eventually, I hope, your aunt will come around to her senses and properly apologize. At the end, it's up to you if you want to forgive her or not; all that really matters is to keep moving forward and that she accepts your response. To clarify, "moving forward" does not mean to get over it and/or forget about that incident. I'm saying that even when times are tough, you keep existing and pushing through. Stay strong Kai!
Btw, that's genuinely one of my most worst fears. I don't know what would happen exactly if my parents were to learn about my gender identity; however, I'm 100% sure it'd be a massive negative reaction. I can already hear the gut-wrenching words being spat at my face about my queer identity (as of far, they only know about my attraction towards women). Pretty clearly, my parents are non-supportive of the LGBTQ+ community (especially towards trans and gender non-conforming individuals, which I fall under said spectrum) even though they claim they accept and support me as their "daughter".
@@ghostlyfae8721 That's horrible. Just know that you aren't alone. I know it feels that way but there are people out there that will love and accept you no matter what happens♥️
Herb Kazzaz is my favorite male character of Bojack Horseman, and The Telescope is in my top 5 of episodes in the whole series. And like a lot of us, it was the first episode to actually made me realize this show was more deep than just an animated adult show about a horse. Herb was truly one of the few people in Bojack Horseman that were inevitably good, and something I always liked was the fact that he stuck with the kids, even if he couldn't be there, he tried to make them feel like they were family, since pretty much all they had at that point was each other. Herb was the glue that hold Horsing Around and its crew together, and when he left, he also left a hole that was impossible to fix, which obviously lead to the show's cancelation and the 'family' being broken apart. He deserved so much better than what he got, and I'm thankful he stood up to Bojack even at that point. He could've gone the easy way and give him a fake closure, but he stood up for himself and his own feelings. And that teached me we all can do the same thing with people who hurt us. Be more like Herb Kazzaz.
I've always loved the flash back to "The future is bright. Just look at it." And the bright sky he's motioning to is a canvas sky at the back of an ankle deep ocean. Behind that, the sun is setting, and darkness is on the horizon. It's maybe a little melodramatic, but it's such a lovely shot, and so sad with the full context.
I remember reading this one comment somewhere, but it truly did felt like Herb was BoJack's true love, not like in a romantic sense but a person who loved him and truly believed in him, a type of love that kinda surpasses what people call platonic and romantic. BoJack truly had a one of a kind love, and he messed it up forever.
I head cannon the fact that Herb purposefully took the telescope from Bj's room to create a chance for Bj to talk to him, or to see if Bj even cared in his own special way. However, just like when he saw through the end of telescope, they've been so distant that Bj didn't even care about the telescope. The irony, Bj tried to wrestle Herb for the telescope is just as self-serving as his attempt to be forgiven. Bj just want the Telescope because "It's mine, you've given to me" without reflecting the purpose. Herb and Todd's take on BJ are Dead on.
I've just watched the show for the third time, it hits harder every time. It's great to see the care put into the analysis, there's so much to analyse and feel from a show like this.
I like to imagine, what if the conversation had gone differently? After Herb says, "I don't forgive you," BoJack says, "I understand. I don't deserve your forgiveness after what I did to you and I don't blame you for rejecting it. I was a shitty friend and I never deserved you. I wish you the best, Herb." Would Herb have reacted differently? If Herb saw that BoJack was truly sorry (like, BoJack's body language wouldn't convey that he felt entitled to forgiveness), would he have changed his mind?
I think he would. Herb didn't seem angry at first, when he said he didn't forgive bojack. Honestly it seems to me like Herb didn't believe bojack WAS sorry. Why would he? BJ only reached out to him to have his own closure and get away from his guilty conscience before it was too late.
If this scene had played out differently, I imagine Herb thinking over how his visit with Bojack went and Bojack's response to his not forgiving him. A few days later, Herb calls Bojack and asks if he is up to meeting him at the planetarium one last time.
I think Herb would still be firm on his decision to not forgive Bojack, but would respect that Bojack understood and accepted his decision. Maybe he would invite him over again
when i first heard about this show i was like "eh, i don't think i need to watch the stupid horse cartoon" but then i saw this episode cause someone else in the room was watching it and i was like "wait that was like actually meaningful and good" so then i watched the whole show and realized how insanely good heartbreaking it all was
Herb: Ugh. I hate when people say that. "Here's the thing." BoJack: It's so stupid. Herb: Just say the thing. You don't need to introduce the concept that there's going to be a thing. One of my favourite quotes from the episode!
The "I don't forgive you" scene always plays in my mind when I think of people that have fucked me over and think "What if they tried to apologize? Like, give a really half-hearted apology and expect everything to be ok?" I don't like being the kind of guy that doesn't accept apologies, but at the same time, there are people out there that hurt people badly enough that forgiveness is out of the question.
I just think that a lot of people see forgiveness as a “one size fits all” sort of ordeal. But forgiveness is very personal and very situational. Forgiveness can set people free, but forgiveness can also be a sort of weight too. It’s not an obligation, it’s a suggestion. If forgiveness can bring a person peace, then by all means. But if forgiveness only brings further stress and a sense of obligation, then it’s not really a peaceful resolution, it’s just another chore. Plenty of people choose to forget and move on instead of forgive, and that’s perfectly understandable too.
I like to add that Herd getting fired could be seen as foreshadowing to Bojack getting canceled. When Herd confront Bojack after the apology he explains how everyone in Hollywood turned on him. Similar to how Hollywoo turned on Bojack after his 2nd interview. Herd was also a target of an angery mod, was publicly shamed and had his life destroyed as a result. Which would all happen to Bojack in the final season. Herbs best freind abandon him during all this when he needed him the most. Bojack freinds start to either cut ties with him or start to put some real distance between themselves and him. So in a way Bojack getting cancled showed him what it might of been like to be Herb. The difference though is Herb didn't do anything wrong. He was cancled for being gay during a time it wasn't acceptable. Herb really was a traget of bigotry and discrimination. Bojack on the other hand gets cancled for abusing his power he had over women. He was facing the consequences of living a life as a horrible person. Even more ironic is if Bojack had stood up for Herb it would've help his career. In just a few years people would start slowly changing their attitude towards homosexuality. If Bojack had stood by Herd he would've been seen as ahead of his time, become more embraced by Hollywoo progressive circles and seen as heroic.
I argue that in relation to your third paragraph, hindsight is 20/20. Bojack would never be able to make that big leap under the citcumstances he's in. Remember that he lived with a father who is a classic stereotype of a frustrated New Left follower that turned to hardcore conservatism out of spite which includes strict gender stereotyping and nonbelief of anything outside those two genders, and his efforts are mocked and torn down by his parents. Bojack is not intellectually or emotionally mature enough to make that decision, especially since this is his first big break. He couldn't lose all that gain at the time...
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 I don't really disagree with anything you say, but the number of comments you've left trying to excuse Bojack's actions and explain away his horrible behavior is concerning.
That's reminains me The View From Halfway Down, on the talk with Secretariat (who was banned for life from competition for betting on his own races), he said he never did nothing of getting a goal to find peace, and yet, there he went, the same as Herb (who was cancled for being gay during a time homosexuality wasn't acceptable), the same as Bojack ( who was cancled for abusing his power he had over women), and the other people of the dinner. Giving us the lesson death doesn't care who you are or were; a president or a drug addict. It will eventually come to get you, your family, your friends, your pets. Like a reminder that whatever we do won't matter that much, so why not just enjoy life while you are here.
sometimes i think of what Bojack said later in the show to Hollyhock and her best friend. He mentioned how an apology would never fix things and how the friend thus didst have to apologise, and Hollyhock says "but i can't forgive you if you don't apologise" it just makes me think of how Bojack's and Herb's friendship might have been alright if Bojack had just called Herb, explained what Angela said to him, and apologised. But instead, he felt so guilty that he never reached out, and as it later turns out, the fact that he didn't, is one of the biggest reasons Herb hates him. (It's also interesting how during the scene with Hollyhock and her friend, Bojack says "Ah, a teachable moment", before being taught something himself)
The first time I watched the show, I was shocked that Herb wouldn't forgive Bojack but it made total sense when I rewatched it after finishing the series. I also found myself realising that Herb's refusal didn't have to be the end of the matter and that Bojack could have replied saying something like "I don't blame you for not forgiving me because I never forgave myself. But I wanted you to know how sorry I am" and he still could have achieved some closure and let Herb know how sorry he really was - but of course he couldn't do that because he was still stuck in the sitcom idea of how apologies and forgiveness works and lacked the self awareness to realise that his own guilt was the real thing at play
It's always amazing to me how Herb much loved bojack, as a friend and even as a soulmate. Even if they didn't have the same sexual preferences herb loved him as a person but bojack wasn't healthy enough to correspond that even if in his deep psyche herb is still his best friend and the person that understood him the most even as they banter in the view from halfway down
Herb was one of the most well written secondary characters in this show, It's sad that they killed him off. As for his friendship with Bojack it's even sadder that it first started out good but then when Horsin' Around came along their worlds got turned upside down and Bojack abandoned Herb. But in all honesty, After everything that happened on the set of Horsin' Around and onwards Herb may have thought that he needed Bojack but after all of that he was way better off without him imo.
I could see Herb waiting and hoping Bojack will call back, but as the years go by he accepts Bojack's not coming back, and is able to move on. It might also explain why he's so annoyed when Bojack finally calls as he's on his deathbed
Technically Herb and Bojack abandoned each other, Because Herb got on Bojack's case about never calling him but Herb could've always called Bojack instead of the other way around but Herb never did, Which kinda makes Herb a hypocrite.
@Baymax in armor I can understand that point of view, but it could be that herb tried to contact him for years. But bojack actually avoids him for his own reputation and/or just didn't really care too much about herb and was focused on his glory days. I think the tipping point was him getting cancer to subconsciously realize that he could have so much time to be with herb and continue their friendship, to see that he fucked up and the guilt was just eating him alive. To see herb accepting the apology would have enabled Bojack's own tendencies to fuck up, neglect, and/or take advantages of power dynamics and can believe that whatever he can be forgiven by anytime of act he does. This was supposed to teach a lesson to both bojack and the audience that some people will never forgive you and your actions will always make an impact on someone, either good or bad.
I have this theory that the last time Bojack was “actually happy” was with Herb, but he conflated that with having feelings for charlotte bc she was also around during a simpler time for him before he got famous. I think he missed not only the simplicity before fame but also his friendship with Herb. Sad he couldn’t have the self awareness possible to try and make it right with Herb before it was too late
I like how threedimensional Herb is. He is a philantropist and cares deeply for the people around him, but he also got a bit of an ego, which we see in the way he of all things, brings up how the show wasn't the same after he left.
My jaw was on the floor the first time I saw this. I was fooled into thinking it'd just be a silly show but this episode made it clear it was much more. Herb was a good person and got ripped to shreds by the entertainment industry, for being gay. Bojack abandoning him would have been just another twist of the knife-imagine how much pain Herb would be in at that point. No wonder he refused to forgive him years later. Even the show itself doesn't abandon Herb, after he dies they keep showing scenes of how close he and Bojack used to be. He was a man in a million and Bojack threw him away for a sense of validation and fame.
heres my own uncalled for anecdote on apologizing and forgiving. if you have done harm onto someone and you *genuinely* feel regret; apologize. even if the other person doesn't want to accept your apology, its still good to apologize and reconcile with yourself and your actions. the reason why bojack's apology doesn't feel right when we watch it is that; although we know that he genuinely feels bad about what he did to herb, he is asuming that he deserved forgiveness. when we apologize, the point shouldn't be to force forgiveness from the other person but its more of an acknowledgement of the mistakes we've made.
Its interesting you mention Bojack's cowardace and I feel that plays a huge role with Charlotte as well. He has this longing to be accepted, wanted, needed, acknowledged all due to Beatrice's treatment of him. I didn't experience anything that rough, but I have long since healed over my parents' treatment of me. Mom always talked about my deceased half brothers even when I was there, loving her unconditionally, and dad, well, I could never please him. The relatability of the characters and how multifaceted they and their relationships are is just so incredibly and poignantly written.
Herb was the first time i *ever* saw someone sayi dont forgive you like EVER. Hes inspired me to hold ppl accountable for their shitty actions. I dont have to forgive ppl and i can also MOVE ON at the same time❤
The Telescope was the first episode of Bojack Horseman I ever saw, it was in one of my classes during freshman year of college. I had no knowledge about this show other than it was about a horse who used to be famous and there was a character named Todd. This was my first introduction to all these characters and I just sat there thinking what it was Bojack could've done to hurt Herb, and it wasn't what I expected, but not in a bad way. It made me want to watch more and now Bojack Horseman is one of my favorite shows. This episode also taught me that it's okay to not forgive people for what they've done.
I'd say it would have been nice if you watched em in order, but, honestly that was the first episode that was really emblematic of what the show would be, so it's good you were first exposed to it
Oh my god. I forgot that Herb said he wanted to meet Bojack at the planterium again once they made it in the industry. That is so fucked. The planterium is like a symbol for BoJack's crumbling fate.
Thats the thing about making ammends, you can give someone an apology because they deserve one but you are by no means entitled to their forgiveness. You and the person you hurt will ultimately move on, but depending on the severity of the mistake and/or how the person you hurt feels you may just have to live with the fact that there's nothing else you can do to make it better, and that's okay. This coming from someone who was a real "Bojack" back in the day, which is why I relate to this show so much. Even though I'm a better person now and lucky to have some old and new relationships still intact, I still don't blame the other ones I hurt for cutting ties with me and keeping it that way.
I feel u bro, I was a Bojack of my own and have been trying to make amends in this past year since hurt done 2 years ago, and am grateful for the opportunity to but accept that some people may never acknowledge me again and that is their right
I’ve always said that to forgive someone doesn’t mean you’re saying that what they did was ok and didn’t effect you, “It just means that you aren’t going to actively let it hold you down and aren’t going to actively resent that person” And based on the way that Herb treated Bojack, by that definition it really seems like he did forgive him He didn’t let what happened weight him down in the end and given how he was able to say he it was good to see him again, I don’t think he harbors active hatred But it’s still good he said “I don’t forgive you” when Bojack asked for it, because even if some part of him did, Bojack isn’t owed that closure or comfort Forgiveness can* be a comfort for those who have been harmed as a way of moving forward But the perpetrator isn’t entitled to the comfort of forgiveness (Warning for personal religious beliefs that you may not agree with) Only person who’s guretteed to forgive you is God and that’s only when you’re really sorry, and God knows when you’re really sorry so you can’t cheat the Lord *can doesn’t mean always, maybe it’s not working for you at the moment but you can forgive and acknowledge that something was wrong, you can forgive and not let back in When Herb said, “I don’t forgive you” I feel like what he really mean was, “I will not absolve you, Herb wasn’t still weighted down by what happened and seemingly isn’t hateful (situational anger is different from hatred, if he hated him he wouldn’t have let him come over or said it was nice to see him), he has moved on, but he’s not gonna absolve him, especially when he’s not really sorry. Herb wasn’t broken, and when it said, “it’s never ever going to be ok” he didnt mean that he is irepperably fixed, he means what Bojack did was never going to be ok. Which is what Bojack wants to hear deep down, not that Herb was ok now, but that he doesn’t have to feel bad anymore. Herb does feel better mentally, but Bojack still needs to feel regret.
I know Bojack is a coward and that’s hugely why he didn’t speak up for Herb, but to emphasize that he was so afraid of how Herb would react to him letting him get fired that he used it as an excuse to never reach out, when Herb was willing to forgive Bojack for not speaking up. Herb saying “What I needed was a friend, and you abandoned me. And I will never forgive you for that.” is an even bigger gut punch given that Bojack let his anxiety and cowardice stop him from checking on someone who considered him such a good friend.
Why does Bojack have to be perfect to deserve any type of forgiveness? Can't good intentions ever be enough for you people? I'd like to see you react the same way if you ever failed to be less than perfect.
@ 6:06 ‘If Herb is really your friend, he will understand’ she was right, Herb didn’t care so much that he stayed on the show: he cared more about the fact that Bojack didn’t communicate with him for 20 years.
When remembering this episode I often forget that before Herb and Bojack had a nasty argument they were actually enjoying each other's company. Herb didn't even bring up what Bojack did to him, he was just genuinely happy to see Bojack again, even if deep down he felt betrayed. Herb was the first friend Bojack had, and also the first friend to realize their friendship could only work if it had boundaries.
The Telescope was without a doubt the game-changing episode for me watching the show. I've always told people that they have to watch that episode before they decide to quit the series. I've actually recently begun rewatching the show once again and what a fantastic ride it still is. It might actually have been due to your continued efforts to produce content about and interpretations of it ;)
People wonder why I won’t forgive a teacher who allowed my class to bully me. Forgiveness isn’t deserved, it’s earned. He never apologized, realize what he did, or supported me. I understand people who forgive their abusers but I can’t. That’s my choice. He’s a lesson in not assuming all adults care about you but he didn’t get me to where I am today. He doesn’t deserve that credit
I just wanna say I absolutely love the thumbnails on your Bojack videos they’re just such a clean visual summary of the episode and it’s extremely satisfying seeing new ones each video. I wish I could see every episode visualized like this, maybe someday heehee
Wonderful analysis, always really enjoy your videos. I really love Herb as a character, he's likable and as someone who's also queer I felt seen when it was revealed he was gay. I can also really feel Herb's pain. Can you imagine that after a spat, your dear friend doesn't speak to you for _twenty_ years? I'd be devastated. The heartache that Bojack put him through is terrible. And even though Bojack knew what he was doing, even though he still could've called Herb any time after his firing, he never did. He never stopped and considered the pain he caused Herb. It really shows his fundamental selfishness.
I just LOVED the fact that herb refused to forgive Bojack unlike most shows where the conflict is handled easily. It breaks the illusion that just feeling guilty is not enough, just saying sorry won't erase your past actions.
This was a great video! I also feel Bojack kissing an already engaged Diane that same night when she tried to comfort him also says a lot about how selfish he still continued to be.
I honestly feelt Herb had a huge crush on Bojack and that couldve been part of why his betrayal hurt so much. Not saying it wouldnt have hurt with them being very close friends but he did kiss bojack and you dont just kiss someone unless you really like them. So while he may not have had hope of a relationship, he still had rose colored glasses on with bojack. And that got shattered when Bojack betrayed him
The telescope is the episode where I started to fall in love with the show. This one got deep and was the turning point in the show where you knew it wasn't just another family guy or Simpsons like adult animated show when Herb refused to forgive Bojack I was like "woah" that never happens on tv shows especially animated ones. The first of the F bombs and it was put in there so perfectly.
This is basically a summary on the the cost of cowardice or passive inaction. Avoiding emotional discomfort or challenge may give u short term relive but as we saw it can have serious unrepairable damage. Bojacks lack of moral and emotional courage costs him his closest relationship due to choosing temporary comfort over doing the right thing
Another great video Johnny. I remember when this episode was being talked about after it aired and how many folks were surprised that they pulled the "I don't forgive you" moment and the discussions that came from that.
I think what’s the saddest thing about all of this was that Herb didn’t even care that he got fired or even if he did, that was never what he was angry about. It was that Bojack abandoned him and their friendship.
This was the scene that made me finally watch the show. It was brought to my attention, as I had a close friend show me that she didn't really give a shit when push comes to shove (casting our friendship aside because her boyfriend got jealous). I wondered what it'd be like if (and that's a big "if") she ever apologized and I refused to forgive her. I mean, I would, because I'm a Christian, but I'll make it clear that there's no hope of ever restoring our friendship.
Something that just occurred to me If Herb stayed in contact with Sarah Lynn all that time, that means she wasn't alone. She had someone good in her life looking out for her. Why didn't that have a positive impact in her life? I don't remember the whole show , so remind me if I've forgotten
Now that I re-read my comment I feel like she was used as a plot point to drive the story forward, which is fine. She wasn't the main character after all. And according to the story she did look at Bojack as more of a father figure than Herb so that would answer my question. Bojacks influence was bigger than Herbs.
@@ola171 If I remember correctly, Bojack and Sarah Lynn used to watch Horsin' Around episodes constantly. So, think Bojack was probably always more important to her, because the show gave her this idea of belonging to a perfect and healthy family, and "The Horse" was always there for her no matter what. Even if it was just acting and fantasy, she grew up there, and it's shown that she didn't even have any friends outside or inside the production. So... I'm not surprised she chose to follow Bojack's example, rather than listen to Herb.
@@ola171i think is also the fact that sarah lynn was too late for getting recovered, the media was too harsh with her. She was like a cartoon britney spears
You know, I finally watched BoJack a while back because of your videos and I think Herb is my favourite of the earlier storylines. Probably not my favourite moment overall though, that would have to go to in "Sunk Cost and All That" right after BoJack, Princess Carolyn, Todd, and Diane write out every last bad thing on the two whiteboards. BoJack has just told them about Sarah Lynn, and he steps out to his class to talk to them all. Diane and Princess Carolyn sit there, listening to BoJack talk. Listening to how different he sounds. and they just both take on a sad look to their faces. They're gonna be sad to see this BoJack go.
The flashbacks to herb and bojack as friends always give me sad vibes because it reminds me of when I’m thinking about things I could’ve done different. The past for a good many people is nostalgic and we long for it because we think it was a better time. But again, that’s just nostalgia
A detail that I find interesting is that when Herb says that the future is bright, he and BoJack are looking at an artificial sky that I think represents Holyhood and all its artificiality.
Still one of my favorite episodes of the series after all of these years. This was the episode that turned the show around imo. I enjoyed it enough to this point, but The Telescope was when you realized the show would be much more than just another fleeting goofy cartoon.
I firmly believe that if Bojack accepted Herb's decision to not forgive him, and didn't push for his forgiveness, Herb would have acknowledged some growth and there would still be a chance they can reconcile and rebuild their friendship. Of course, instead, BJ shows his true colors and intentions which cemented he didn't grow at all, and the visit was only so he would feel better about himself. There was nothing to save in their already doomed friendship. Herb refused to play BJ's game. Even then, Herb offered one last harsh, but necessary lesson that reality is not a sitcom, and that BJ's actions have consequences.
In all honesty, even if Bojack really meant his apology, I still don’t think Herb would’ve forgiven him. Because after carrying that pain of deep betrayal for 20 years, how are two simple words suppose to make him feel better?
Honestly, it was a kindness that Herb died so early on. If he had seen what Bojack did to Charlotte, Sarah Lynn’s death and the entire Xerox of a Xerox interview… that likely would have hurt him to a level I can’t even describe.
Yeah, Herb wanted so badly for the Horsin' Around cast to all to stick together and be like a big family. I think the Sarah Lynn situation would have broken him, especially since she died at the observatory of all places. If he saw the person BoJack had become...
A small mercy, it's called, I think.
If the cancer and truck full of peanuts didn't kill him, that interview surely would've, especially the bombshell that BoJack had sex with Sara Lynn.
Dont forget Bojack sleeping with Sarah Lynne. I have feeling Herb would've been enraged if he had know that he crossed that line with her.
also what he did to sherone
I feel like Herb’s semi-crush on Bojack is so incredibly well written. Herb saw the best in Bojack, even when the rest of the world didn’t, and even if Bojack didn’t reciprocate, Herb accepted that and didn’t back down from their friendship. Just shows how mature, empathetic and caring Herb is. He puts everyone before him
Isn't it bad to put everyone else before you?
@@sher618 Is it? That was one of View From Halfway Down's themes, but it was inconclusive. Imo Herb had the best case for doing good.
Herb always put the horse before the cart.
@@sher618
Taking care of yourself is not putting yourself before others.
@@sher618 It depends I suppose. From what I remember he didn't do it at a detriment to himself; he kept himself fine enough to continue to do good, so that's alright. But if, for instance, you gave up all your money, your house, your food, and everything you owned just to do good, that would be at a severe detriment to yourself even if it may help others, and it could prevent you from helping others more efficiently too. :)
The contradiction of them bonding and cracking jokes like it was 1988 at the dinner table to them fighting after Herb says he will never forgive Bojack is the most interesting. It shows, for me, that they still have a soft spot for each other, but the damage was done and even reminiscing cannot change that.
Herb was trying to teach him a lesson. He's not even angry when telling Bojack he doesn't forgive him the first time. It's only when Bojack persisted for an apology does Herb get angry.
That says a lot too.
I think I’m going to have this moment with a friend of mine very soon. Having someone so close to you do something so damaging to your friendship that it has to end for your own health and family, regardless of your past. Bojack is always so goddamn poignant
Rather than show that Bojack had a soft spot for him, I think it's more reflective of how Bojack regrets how he treated Herb and wishes he could go back to earlier in their relationship. Even though the last encounter he had with Herb was hostile, in Bojack's subconscious he and Herb are still bantering like in the old days. If you look to one of their earlier interactions, the bit BJ and Herb do together at the dinner table is almost exactly the same as the one they did when they were younger. Since the Herb at the dinner table isn't actually Herb, but the Herb in Bojack's mind, it shows how BJ misses him and still remembers their relationship positively, even though the actual Herb held him in contempt until his last breath.
Had BoJack just left with Diane instead of gone back to keep pestering there is a chance that reconciling would have been possible. But of course, BoJack just didn't know when to quit.
@@diamondinthesky4771 nail on the head. They had a nice dinner, there was some bitterness but at the same time Herb had a life he called amazing, cancer and all, and even enjoyed getting back into joke banter. It wasn't the shouting match of aggrievement and anger Bojack thought it would be. It was actually a nice dinner. There was a chance for possibly others in the months before the car crash, even more if the crash hadn't happened because his cancer went into remission. But because Bojack insisted on getting his very special episode out of a real event happening in Herb's life, no repair was possible.
Find fact here: when Angela talks to Bojack, look at how Bojack reacts. He acts submissive, rubbing his hands, keeping his head down. He acts more like a kid getting scolded by…a mom. And Angela’s words are extremely similar to what Beatrice would have said: to keep on singing/acting otherwise no one will ever care about you again. If you really focus on the words briefly, you’d think Angela and Beatrice were the same.
What's even worse is that Angela herself was queer, yet encouraged Bojack to stab a fellow queer person in the back.
@@lukerosales5879When did they say she was LGBTQ+?
@nationalinstituteofcheese3012 in the episode she last appears in at Season 6. She reveals she was dating a woman and also revealed that Herb wasn't in any real danger of losing his job in the first place (which meant she fired him out of sheer enjoyment rather than backlash from the right wing nutters), which implied if Bojack had a spine he could've called her bluff.
Yep it’s certainly a good luck at how real power dynamics can warp a person. But also how privledge can protect yourself from real cos sciences.
And yeah, while she ain’t a saint the whole point was that BOJACK had to make that call to be a better person. If it wasn’t her enticing him, something else woulda. Now would everyone’s life be. Better if Bojack said her. Stays? I can’t tell. Sarah would have been still raped. I can’t say if she’d be drunk because if I recall when herb left Bojack left alcohol around. So herb being around might have protected that. There’s also nothing stopping Bojack from being a selfish prick which we see he kinda was to an extent prior to herbs firing. Plus if Todd, Princess Caroline, and Diane are any hints in this what if, i believe Bojack might drive herb away or by making him worse. Remember, herb LIVED. Fulfilling life AWAY from back and Hollywood. @@lukerosales5879
@bradhorowitz2765 yeah. I had no sympathy for Bojack at that point, but Herb was the real victim. Bojack may have been coerced but he was the coward in that scenario.
Only thing I hated was that Angela acted like she was the victim when she said "my job was on the line". No it wasn't, she was practically stroking herself over the power she held over Bojack and Herb's future and knew exactly who would hold the knife and who would get stabbed in the back. Bojack may have been manipulated, but he was no victim and neither was Angela.
Fantastic analysis. The fact that philbert, the one thing he did as a favor to be a good friend, is what got him out of the hole he was stuck in for being known as the horse from horsin around is incredible. I never even thought about that
It also helped drive him off the rails
why is your comment from 18 hours ago?
@@villabacano videos can be posted as "unlisted," wherein people can only view it with the URL or link. Thus a comment can be left by someone with the link before the video is switched from "unlisted" to "public"
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 If you've been on TH-cam long enough to immediately check the community tab for all of your questions, then you should also know that there are lots of different kinds of people online and not all of them use or even know how to use every function on every platform.
@@5h4d0w5l1f3 They are old enough to learn to do that. Don't use ignorance as an excuse for this. Or maybe I am placing too much credit on humanity being smart enough to get their way around things. If they can survive this long without dying, they most certainly can get around using this site that has been designed to be friendly to use even for the dumbest of people on this earth...
I love where herb goes "I'm not your prop" cuz I've had people in my life who think "apologizing" to me buried what they did.
Sadly, I know that feeling as well
Bojacks witers go back and forth on if a apology is enough.
Herb says its not and bojack will never be forgive.
In season 6. Hollyhock says an apology is all she needed. Then hollyhock and Tawnie stop arguing.
@@sftrkrt07 Well, it all depends on circumstance. And most of all it depends on the person you're apologising to. If they forgive you either because they are forgiving or maybe because they want to leave it all behind them then it's their choice. That is the important part here. You can't just apologise and be done with it. Sometimes people don't forgive you and of course you have to actual reflect.
@@sftrkrt07 Keep in mind the gravity of what Tawnie and Hollyhock were fighting over compared to what Herb and BoJack were. Hollyhock really just needed an apology to move on but an apology would not be enough for Herb and BoJack to move forward. It's not just about an apology but what it's for and what it means.
@@sftrkrt07 There's a stark difference between a trivial disagreement and ghosting someone for over 15 years after saying they'll support them.
There's something I find really comforting about Herb not forgiving Bojack. I've seen a few people say he was petty for holding onto his grudge for the rest of his life, but I suspect those people are of the mindset that you're obligated to forgive anybody who apologises to you no matter what. Sometimes people aren't really sorry for the things they did, and they'll hurt you again if given the chance. You're not petty for not wanting to let yourself be hurt over and over. I don't think I've ever seen any other piece of media offer that kind of validation.
Exactly this. I suspect the people who think someone who apologizes should be automatically forgiven no matter what, have done something pretty bad in the past and still feel guilty lol. Understandable, but that's not how it works. It's gotta be mutual, and accepting an apology is absolutely not an obligation. Sometimes you just gotta live with that.
Bojack didn't even just do something dickish that hurt Herb's career years ago. It's the fact he effectively cut him out of his life after and treated him like a stranger to appeal to american homophobes and then at the last second came to him too apologize just so he wouldn't feel like a shitty person. Even if you're coming from the perspective that a grudge even over all that would be petty, Herb wasn't only doing it for the grudge and was in the end just trying to give Bojack a reality check.
literally bojack didn’t care about herb at all he was just seeking closure in hope of clearing his guilty conscience. People don’t realise that selfish apologies do exist
I remember I talked to a friend of mine about this, and I remember he told me that herb not forgiving bojack was so surprising to him because he had never seen it before, he had never even considered the fact that you could just not forgive someone for doing something terrible
Tbf, it is wrong that Bojack never contacted Herb after him getting fired. However, just because someone is your friend, and just because someone helped you get that job, it doesn't mean you have to walk out on a job to if your friend get fired. People are inherently selfish and you can't expect someone to do something like this. I wouldn't expect a friend to leave a job because I got fired even if I referred him and I would also not leave a job for that reason either.
I'm glad the show did a realistic conclusion to Herb and Bojack's relationship. I feel like forgiveness is treated as something to give out, but in reality forgiveness is a heavy, important, and mutual action.
He’s also one of the best written gay characters I’ve ever seen. Just an incredible character
Extremely heavy weighted on being mutual
Forgive is like trust. You must earn it.
@@veronicapiccinini7956 forgiveness is such a weird thing--especially the way people talk about it. When people ask for forgiveness, they're often asking you to extend your trust again, to be once again vulnerable. That's how "forgiveness" is weaponized so much
@@jordanjoestar-turniptruck Forgiveness is a choice. It’s a choice to let bygones be bygones and have hope that future will be better. I’m tired of seeing people online refuse forgiveness.
In the great words of avatar aang, “revenge is like a 2 headed rat viper: while you’re watching your enemy go down your being poisoned yourself.”
It’s easy to seek revenge, and it’s even easier to do nothing, yet still hold anger and ill will towards someone who wronged you. But holding on to negative emotions will only hurt you and bring you mental anguish.
Forgiveness doesn’t mean forgetting. Forgiving someone doesn’t mean you have to trust them again. But forgiveness means you let your animosity go.
Forgiveness is a hard choice to make, but it’s the only way to heal.
It’s always sad to see just how much Herb cared about Bojack, and how shitty he was to let the success get so big in his head that he left his friend behind. Bojack 100% could’ve gotten another role, yet he was so stuck in the flow of the show that he didn’t wanna take a risk for his good friend.
Also I know it’s Bojacks fault but damn Angela in that scene pisses me off, she doesn’t even give him a chance to speak and manipulated his very obvious feelings towards success.
I argue that Bojack not taking the risk even for his friend that got him that role was just him turtling down and hoping this blows over with not much consequences. He was conditioned not to take risks because in his childhood everytime he does anything by his own initiative often gets him a negative reaction from his parents. Him getting this big break was something he couldn't risk losing at this moment, not after hearing Beatrice being perpetually disappointed with whatever he does. I understand why Bojack couldn't risk it, he's both scared to lose the gains he have at the moment and is very much unprepared to do that and deal with all that consequences...
Ikr it's sad how Bojack legit started being the bad guy by manipulation and then later on in the show he still tries to victimize himself really hard but even when he's right no one believes him because he's done too much damage himself
And then it’s revealed in Season 6 that Angela bluffed through her teeth the whole time.
That even if Bojack didn’t betray Herb, the former wouldn’t lose his job and fame anyway. Meaning that Bojack’s betrayal was all for nothing
angela when she signs bojack off of the horsin around show also made me angry, she got him to drink and manipulated him.
Charlotte called it: Bojack was a coward.
its so depressing how easy bojack let go of their friendship. how do you be friends with someone for decades, have him INSIST that you be the star of his show, be your claim to fame, and not even bother to call or check up on him when he's fired. i cant fathom how little herb meant to bojack
The fact that Bojack never seemed to consider that Herb was more hurt and angry about him abandoning their friendship than about being fired does say a lot about how Bojack really valued Herb for what he did for him in his career, but not about Herb personally.
That’s why I can’t help but wonder if Bojack and Herb’s friendship would have ended anyways, even if Bojack had demanded that Herb stay on the show. Most likely, Bojack would constantly remind Herb of how he saved his job anytime Herb disagreed with him or Bojack wanted Herb to do things for him.
With stuff like BPD, which I reckon Bojack has, liking someone can end up causing avoidance because of how strong the anxiety is because their opinion matters, unlike some stranger who means nothing to you. Then if it’s gone on more than a few months without contact, that in itself can become an anxiety, and the person can subconsciously choose to just live with their memory, ever fading and growing less accurate, of the person because while it’s still in flux it could still technically be anything, even though after 5, 10 years he definitely hates you anyway.
Which isn’t to diminish how much it sucks to be on the other side, or to deny how twisted that logic is, but nevertheless there is a logic which flows from caring about a person coupled with avoidant tendencies (which BoJack is absolutely full of, considering how often he goes on benders instead of facing his issue at hand).
Maybe Bojack was genuinely terrified of Herb dressing him down for something he didn't want to cause? If that was the case, he was completely justified for that, given how horribly Herb treated him in spite of his heartfelt apology.
I find it really weird that no one is willing to empathize with Bojack or understand just how difficult of a situation that is. Herb didn't even stop to think for a SECOND about how painful what Bojack went through was.
@@BrianSandler You could've had a point here, if Bojack tried to apologize, and not just try to get Herb to say "it doesn't matter that You've betrayed me, and treated me like I was nothing to You", just so Bojack can feel better. Bojack went through a lot, but Herb went through worse, he was revealed as gay to the public, which wasn't approved at that time, he was later fired from his show, and his best friend stabbed him in the back and then abandoned, imagine how it feels? Just think that You're getting fired from Your job, You ask Your friend who works with You to try and help You with this, he doesn't help, and then completely ignores You later. Pretty much, Bojack used Herb, and when he wasn't that needed anymore, Bojack left him. Herb had the right to not accept the apology, especially since Bojack didn't even try to actually apologize, and as I said, was just trying to make himself feel better about what he did, which isn't an apology. Bojack was a victim of abuse before, but this doesn't justify his actions later on, the show is about a complex character, who is sympathetic to a degree, but who does many wrong things, betraying Herb is one of those.
I love that Herb didn't forgive Bojack. It made sense and is completely understandable. I also think it's what Bojack needed. If Herb forgave him then he would've thought what he did to Herb was okay since he was forgiven.
In a way, Herb was still mentoring him. Because that role comes to him so naturally.
@@jordanjoestar-turniptruck Even the way he talks seems like he's teaching Bojack a lesson. He doesn't get mad, he plainly states that he's never going to forgive him.
But when Bojack doesn't learn his lesson, Herb gets mad. Because even he has limits
@@genericname2747 it wasn't even that Bojack wasn't leaning his lesson, it's that he was ARGUING with him about not being forgiven. It clearly was never an apology in the first place. That would piss anyone off.
@@jordanjoestar-turniptruckYeah, he was actively refusing to learn anything..
I also think that it's a bit interesting how, at least in the beginning, Herb seems to still becoming to terms with being gay, as he was sort of dating Charlotte at the time, but then in a moment of excitement he plants a big kiss on BoJack. He trusted BoJack so much in that moment, and then to see the complete break-down of their relationship in the end just serves a further reminder of how much BoJack hurt him over the years.
He definitely had a crush on Bojack pffft
Also nice Herb pfp heheh...
off topic but i like your pfp:)
Nice pfp you got there :)
The way Bojack tries to apologize to Herb feels off. He's like "I feel bad about what happened", not like "I'm sorry that I let you down and didn't call". That doesn't sound like someone who really feels sorry about it.
Great analysis as always Johnny!
And the fact that Herb (though he clearly knew) had to ask Bojack, "So, you're apologizing?" also shows that Bojack's so-called apology was weak sauce. That's why if you're going to genuinely apologize for something, specifically say what you''re apologizing for.
It’s a “backhanded apology”. Like “I’m sorry I’m not sorry” or “I’m sorry I didn’t know you are still holding grudges”
or “Sorry that you were offended”. I believe he took it from his mother’s unapologetic toxicity
I hate those people, they’re irritating
Yeah, that’s a good point. He can’t really be sorry for it if he doesn’t know what he’s apologizing for. And if you don’t know why you’re apologizing, then you don’t have the knowledge necessary to improve your behavior.
Something I think this episode really shows is how Bojack doesn't really do anything on his own. He gets everything he wants by being a coward, passively getting attention due to others.
Bojack doesn't call him because he feels bad, but still expected herb to just accept that: as he would. He's a coward for not being a good person. He fights a literal cancer patient because he feels like he's a victim.
A literal one?
I mean, given his childhood where every time he does something by his own his own parents tore him down for something trivial, do you really believe he'd do something proactive and independent of others?
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 honestly? that would work when he was in his 20s, blaming his upbringing in his 40-50s - not really
@@skurwysyn100 "Old habits die hard". Besides, I am talking about Bojack when he is in his 20's, Bojack in his 50's may be different but strands of that 20's persona lingers on in him...
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 I think you can acknowledge how someone’s childhood may have affected them and still hold them accountable for their flaws. Bojack is a flawed person, and while he has sympathetic reasons behind some of his flaws, those reasons aren’t necessarily enough to negate that he has harmed the people in his life. And his passiveness is ultimately something that has on multiple occasions deeply hurt those he cares about.
The fact that Herb was mad that he never reached out, NOT that he went back on his word, but that he didn’t reach out. Something so simple, so easy. He was just mad that Bojack never talked to him afterward. That’s haunting
And it makes total sense. It's like he portrayed him ans never cared to make it right or make sure he was okay. Herb definitely would've gotten around to understanding that Bojack felt forced to fire him, and would've found a common ground. But he was cut from the TV project and nothing, after all those years of close friendship. He abandoned him like everyone else in that industry. (Except for the child cast of course).
It always struck me as strange that Bojack was mad when Herb didn't forgive him. Apologizing should be like giving a gift: Sometimes it's an obligation, and sometimes it's freely given, but why should you care what the recipient does with it? Your part in it is over, you can move on.
Its really not that strange if you think of how bojack behaves. Despite how bad he acts and how bad it supposedly makes him feel, he keeps doing it. A. Because if someone gets upset with him, he bails and doesnt have to deal with the consequences of his actions. And B. When he CANT bail, he apologizes because he has to. And most people will usually just accept it and move on. I think Herb was the first person to tell him to his face he wont forgive him. And that goes against most people just accepting the apology and moving on. He was apologizing for mostly selfish reasons. Bc HE felt bad. So when Herb didnt forgive him so he could feel better, he got mad
I took it as bojack being selfish again. Its to comfort himself, not herb.
“Well herb is going to die from cancer anyway so i better say sorry and herb wont be hold a grudge on me in death”
The thing is that it seemed bojack was still welcome in herbs home before him going into herbs bedroom and demanding his forgiveness. They still couldve been friends.
@@Ihazfunkitty Yeah, he already had what he wanted. Bojack could spend time with his old friend, and act like nothing has ever happened.
But then he got greedy. He wanted to stop feeling guilty.
I'm pretty sure Bojack didn't see it that way; from the way he reacted, I think he felt entitled to forgiveness once he apologised, considering how he reiterated that he said he was sorry and trying to convince Herb it was the best thing for the both of them, but Herb saw through that and saw his selfish intentions, and so refused that forgiveness because he felt Bojack didn't deserve it. Bojack, then feeling robbed of feeling good as he felt he deserved Herb's forgiveness, decided to try one last jab at Herb before he left so he could feel better and vindicated of his hurt. It's sort of like when you ask out a pretty girl you've had a crush on for ages, but she says no, and whilst it's totally in her right, some people would feel entitled to her affection due to how much they lingered on it, and become enraged when they feel robbed of a chance. :)
Johnny is the GOAT adult cartoon essay writer - they're all so well written and so insightful, and it's clear how much care went into the making of this and all the other videos.
Like man, if this was a tv series, not animated, it would be better than Breaking Bad
I love this episode cause it is the best example of how I believe forgiveness is optional. I cannot stand the phrase: "Forgive and forget."
People who are truly sorry apologize with actions and not just words.
In Bojack's case, he wanted closure. He didn't care or acknowledge how much he truly hurt Herb. Herb is right to be angry and not forgive Bojack. Not once in the 20 years did BoJack reach out to call him, talk to him, write a letter, or just apologize in general up until this point.
When someone apologizes for the terrible stuff they've done, they shouldn't just immediately expect to be forgiven. In fact, when I apologize, I go in depth about what I'm sorry about, acknowledge my mistakes, and let the person know that I understand if they don't forgive me. Mind you, I've never messed up to the extent Bojack has, but I've dealt with toxic people who act similar to him.
If someone is truly sorry, then they'll acknowledge that they might not be forgiven. If they're mad that they're not forgiven, they're not sorry.
@@genericname2747 Exactly.
EXACTLY, more people need to know this
@Ashy_Inking I've told toxic people, and I quote: "Sorry is not good enough. People who are truly sorry don't continue this pattern of crappy behavior."
Forgive and forget is tough.
A cousin of mine, in Halloween 2018, was driving high and drunk. She was a druggie in the family and her addiction turned her so ugly. My uncle and aunt raised her child, who, when born, was hooked on heroin. Seeing a baby withdraw is awful. It was evil. Didnt even phase her. By the mercy of God, she passed out behind the wheel and swerved into an oncoming lane of traffic yet didnt hit anyone and hit some guardrails and trees and was ejected from the car and died on impact. She didnt hurt anyone that night and it was a miracle. She wasnt a good person at all. At my wedding, she stole several hundred dollars from our gift envelopes. To this day, Id pay any price just to read those letters that she stole, it wasnt about the money. Our family just hated her and her drug addicted actions. Once she died.. a go fund me was set up claiming how amazing she was, citing a job she held for 2 months and her baby and claiming her to be a good member of society. ?!?!?!? I was pissed. Just because you die, doesnt make you a good person
It’s ironic though that people constantly placed all their bets on Bojack and he constantly failed them. He’s the one horse no one should ever bet on.
This show challenges the narrative that the audience are expected to root for the main character by having said MC be an awful manipulator and predator...
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 Especially since it's a comedy.
Comedies often have horrible people as the main characters, but you still like seeing the wacky hijinks they get up to.
But here, you eventually want Bojack to stop. It's not funny anymore.
Herb was such a fun, kind and genuine guy, and still not painted as perfect by the narrative, that's really hard but they nailed it!
I think I still remember fairly vividly the feeling that was watching Herb not forgiving Bojack and then him kissing Diane out of nowhere, as the first chords of back in the 90's struck.
I was very young when I first watched it (I think I was 11 at the time and I watched the show with my parents), but I remember feeling very uncomfortable and confused after that episode, the biggest "you fucked up" moment I had witnessed.
You were 11!!?? And how old r u now?
@@martinvicentefabregas7240 I'm 17!
damn u got cool ass parents if they let u watch bojack at 11
@@sm0kelikeahehim honestly at first the three of us thought it was just "haha funny horse man is miserable and an alcoholic so hilarious" and we didn't know what it hid underneath. Allas, a big porcentage of the viewers thought the same
I first watched it at 12 , and I just completed a second rewatch years later
You know what gets me? At the end, when Herb says “it WAS good to see you.” If Bojack had just left, and maybe called him the next day to joke around, they could have gone out on a high note, maybe not forgiven, but on a good note, instead Bojack tries to force forgiveness so as to not feel bad, and that destroys whatever was left of their relationship.
Hearing Herb say “I do not forgive you” makes me emotional every time. I grew up around people that thought saying I’m sorry, regardless of if they mean it or not, makes the problem go away. Like if you’re still upset then it’s YOUR problem now, not theirs. I didn’t think I could say something like that when I first watched the show. I was outed as non-binary to my dad by my aunt and did NOT get a good reaction. She triggered one of the biggest emotional breakdowns I’ve ever had and she still doesn’t understand why what she did was wrong. If I ever get the chance to tell her “I do not forgive you” to her face I will grab it with both hands. Forgiveness has to be earned, not freely given.
That's awful :( Does your aunt not know how traumatizing that is?? Not only that, but she threw away your consent, privacy, and safety by doing so. Even if it just slipped out by accident (or that she didn't think of anything of it at the time), she should've been understanding of how and why you're greatly upset by it. Eventually, I hope, your aunt will come around to her senses and properly apologize. At the end, it's up to you if you want to forgive her or not; all that really matters is to keep moving forward and that she accepts your response.
To clarify, "moving forward" does not mean to get over it and/or forget about that incident. I'm saying that even when times are tough, you keep existing and pushing through. Stay strong Kai!
Btw, that's genuinely one of my most worst fears. I don't know what would happen exactly if my parents were to learn about my gender identity; however, I'm 100% sure it'd be a massive negative reaction. I can already hear the gut-wrenching words being spat at my face about my queer identity (as of far, they only know about my attraction towards women). Pretty clearly, my parents are non-supportive of the LGBTQ+ community (especially towards trans and gender non-conforming individuals, which I fall under said spectrum) even though they claim they accept and support me as their "daughter".
@@ghostlyfae8721 That's horrible. Just know that you aren't alone. I know it feels that way but there are people out there that will love and accept you no matter what happens♥️
Herb Kazzaz is my favorite male character of Bojack Horseman, and The Telescope is in my top 5 of episodes in the whole series. And like a lot of us, it was the first episode to actually made me realize this show was more deep than just an animated adult show about a horse. Herb was truly one of the few people in Bojack Horseman that were inevitably good, and something I always liked was the fact that he stuck with the kids, even if he couldn't be there, he tried to make them feel like they were family, since pretty much all they had at that point was each other.
Herb was the glue that hold Horsing Around and its crew together, and when he left, he also left a hole that was impossible to fix, which obviously lead to the show's cancelation and the 'family' being broken apart. He deserved so much better than what he got, and I'm thankful he stood up to Bojack even at that point. He could've gone the easy way and give him a fake closure, but he stood up for himself and his own feelings. And that teached me we all can do the same thing with people who hurt us.
Be more like Herb Kazzaz.
Broooo more than Todd?
I've always loved the flash back to "The future is bright. Just look at it." And the bright sky he's motioning to is a canvas sky at the back of an ankle deep ocean. Behind that, the sun is setting, and darkness is on the horizon. It's maybe a little melodramatic, but it's such a lovely shot, and so sad with the full context.
I remember reading this one comment somewhere, but it truly did felt like Herb was BoJack's true love, not like in a romantic sense but a person who loved him and truly believed in him, a type of love that kinda surpasses what people call platonic and romantic. BoJack truly had a one of a kind love, and he messed it up forever.
I head cannon the fact that Herb purposefully took the telescope from Bj's room to create a chance for Bj to talk to him, or to see if Bj even cared in his own special way.
However, just like when he saw through the end of telescope, they've been so distant that Bj didn't even care about the telescope.
The irony, Bj tried to wrestle Herb for the telescope is just as self-serving as his attempt to be forgiven.
Bj just want the Telescope because "It's mine, you've given to me" without reflecting the purpose.
Herb and Todd's take on BJ are Dead on.
i love how you’re still covering bojack horseman, this show should never be forgotten!
I've just watched the show for the third time, it hits harder every time. It's great to see the care put into the analysis, there's so much to analyse and feel from a show like this.
I like to imagine, what if the conversation had gone differently? After Herb says, "I don't forgive you," BoJack says, "I understand. I don't deserve your forgiveness after what I did to you and I don't blame you for rejecting it. I was a shitty friend and I never deserved you. I wish you the best, Herb." Would Herb have reacted differently? If Herb saw that BoJack was truly sorry (like, BoJack's body language wouldn't convey that he felt entitled to forgiveness), would he have changed his mind?
I think he would. Herb didn't seem angry at first, when he said he didn't forgive bojack. Honestly it seems to me like Herb didn't believe bojack WAS sorry. Why would he? BJ only reached out to him to have his own closure and get away from his guilty conscience before it was too late.
If this scene had played out differently, I imagine Herb thinking over how his visit with Bojack went and Bojack's response to his not forgiving him. A few days later, Herb calls Bojack and asks if he is up to meeting him at the planetarium one last time.
I think Herb would still be firm on his decision to not forgive Bojack, but would respect that Bojack understood and accepted his decision. Maybe he would invite him over again
I don't think he'd ever forgive him, but Herb would still want to spend time with his old friend
He probably would’ve never forgiven him but it would’ve ended better
when i first heard about this show i was like "eh, i don't think i need to watch the stupid horse cartoon" but then i saw this episode cause someone else in the room was watching it and i was like "wait that was like actually meaningful and good" so then i watched the whole show and realized how insanely good heartbreaking it all was
Despite how little Herb appears in the show he never fails to have an impact.
Herb: Ugh. I hate when people say that. "Here's the thing."
BoJack: It's so stupid.
Herb: Just say the thing. You don't need to introduce the concept that there's going to be a thing.
One of my favourite quotes from the episode!
I love the symbol of the telescope. Bojack is too busy looking at a magnified future to understand that he and Herb needed each other
Bojack alone at the Griffith Observatory: “Man, this has gotta be the worst thing that will ever happen here.”
The "I don't forgive you" scene always plays in my mind when I think of people that have fucked me over and think "What if they tried to apologize? Like, give a really half-hearted apology and expect everything to be ok?" I don't like being the kind of guy that doesn't accept apologies, but at the same time, there are people out there that hurt people badly enough that forgiveness is out of the question.
I just think that a lot of people see forgiveness as a “one size fits all” sort of ordeal. But forgiveness is very personal and very situational. Forgiveness can set people free, but forgiveness can also be a sort of weight too. It’s not an obligation, it’s a suggestion. If forgiveness can bring a person peace, then by all means. But if forgiveness only brings further stress and a sense of obligation, then it’s not really a peaceful resolution, it’s just another chore. Plenty of people choose to forget and move on instead of forgive, and that’s perfectly understandable too.
I like to add that Herd getting fired could be seen as foreshadowing to Bojack getting canceled.
When Herd confront Bojack after the apology he explains how everyone in Hollywood turned on him. Similar to how Hollywoo turned on Bojack after his 2nd interview. Herd was also a target of an angery mod, was publicly shamed and had his life destroyed as a result. Which would all happen to Bojack in the final season. Herbs best freind abandon him during all this when he needed him the most. Bojack freinds start to either cut ties with him or start to put some real distance between themselves and him. So in a way Bojack getting cancled showed him what it might of been like to be Herb.
The difference though is Herb didn't do anything wrong. He was cancled for being gay during a time it wasn't acceptable. Herb really was a traget of bigotry and discrimination. Bojack on the other hand gets cancled for abusing his power he had over women. He was facing the consequences of living a life as a horrible person.
Even more ironic is if Bojack had stood up for Herb it would've help his career. In just a few years people would start slowly changing their attitude towards homosexuality. If Bojack had stood by Herd he would've been seen as ahead of his time, become more embraced by Hollywoo progressive circles and seen as heroic.
I argue that in relation to your third paragraph, hindsight is 20/20. Bojack would never be able to make that big leap under the citcumstances he's in. Remember that he lived with a father who is a classic stereotype of a frustrated New Left follower that turned to hardcore conservatism out of spite which includes strict gender stereotyping and nonbelief of anything outside those two genders, and his efforts are mocked and torn down by his parents. Bojack is not intellectually or emotionally mature enough to make that decision, especially since this is his first big break. He couldn't lose all that gain at the time...
@@theotherohlourdespadua1131 I don't really disagree with anything you say, but the number of comments you've left trying to excuse Bojack's actions and explain away his horrible behavior is concerning.
The frontlash from hollywoo would have boosted his ego beyond reasonable amounts
That's reminains me The View From Halfway Down, on the talk with Secretariat (who was banned for life from competition for betting on his own races), he said he never did nothing of getting a goal to find peace, and yet, there he went, the same as Herb (who was cancled for being gay during a time homosexuality wasn't acceptable), the same as Bojack ( who was cancled for abusing his power he had over women), and the other people of the dinner. Giving us the lesson death doesn't care who you are or were; a president or a drug addict. It will eventually come to get you, your family, your friends, your pets. Like a reminder that whatever we do won't matter that much, so why not just enjoy life while you are here.
sometimes i think of what Bojack said later in the show to Hollyhock and her best friend. He mentioned how an apology would never fix things and how the friend thus didst have to apologise, and Hollyhock says "but i can't forgive you if you don't apologise"
it just makes me think of how Bojack's and Herb's friendship might have been alright if Bojack had just called Herb, explained what Angela said to him, and apologised. But instead, he felt so guilty that he never reached out, and as it later turns out, the fact that he didn't, is one of the biggest reasons Herb hates him.
(It's also interesting how during the scene with Hollyhock and her friend, Bojack says "Ah, a teachable moment", before being taught something himself)
The first time I watched the show, I was shocked that Herb wouldn't forgive Bojack but it made total sense when I rewatched it after finishing the series. I also found myself realising that Herb's refusal didn't have to be the end of the matter and that Bojack could have replied saying something like "I don't blame you for not forgiving me because I never forgave myself. But I wanted you to know how sorry I am" and he still could have achieved some closure and let Herb know how sorry he really was - but of course he couldn't do that because he was still stuck in the sitcom idea of how apologies and forgiveness works and lacked the self awareness to realise that his own guilt was the real thing at play
It's always amazing to me how Herb much loved bojack, as a friend and even as a soulmate. Even if they didn't have the same sexual preferences herb loved him as a person but bojack wasn't healthy enough to correspond that even if in his deep psyche herb is still his best friend and the person that understood him the most even as they banter in the view from halfway down
Herb was one of the most well written secondary characters in this show, It's sad that they killed him off. As for his friendship with Bojack it's even sadder that it first started out good but then when Horsin' Around came along their worlds got turned upside down and Bojack abandoned Herb.
But in all honesty, After everything that happened on the set of Horsin' Around and onwards Herb may have thought that he needed Bojack but after all of that he was way better off without him imo.
I could see Herb waiting and hoping Bojack will call back, but as the years go by he accepts Bojack's not coming back, and is able to move on. It might also explain why he's so annoyed when Bojack finally calls as he's on his deathbed
Technically Herb and Bojack abandoned each other, Because Herb got on Bojack's case about never calling him but Herb could've always called Bojack instead of the other way around but Herb never did, Which kinda makes Herb a hypocrite.
@Baymax in armor I can understand that point of view, but it could be that herb tried to contact him for years. But bojack actually avoids him for his own reputation and/or just didn't really care too much about herb and was focused on his glory days. I think the tipping point was him getting cancer to subconsciously realize that he could have so much time to be with herb and continue their friendship, to see that he fucked up and the guilt was just eating him alive. To see herb accepting the apology would have enabled Bojack's own tendencies to fuck up, neglect, and/or take advantages of power dynamics and can believe that whatever he can be forgiven by anytime of act he does. This was supposed to teach a lesson to both bojack and the audience that some people will never forgive you and your actions will always make an impact on someone, either good or bad.
@@baymaxinarmor4133eh...bojack screwed up so he should call herb
Hot take: Tina the bear is the best character in the show. She cares for Herb so much.
Tina is best bear. She takes care of herb and pretty much every other character that we see her with like beatrice in the dementia stage.
I have this theory that the last time Bojack was “actually happy” was with Herb, but he conflated that with having feelings for charlotte bc she was also around during a simpler time for him before he got famous. I think he missed not only the simplicity before fame but also his friendship with Herb. Sad he couldn’t have the self awareness possible to try and make it right with Herb before it was too late
I noticed the parallel of Herb kissing BoJack and bojack backing away and then cut to BoJack kissing Diane and her backing away
I like how threedimensional Herb is. He is a philantropist and cares deeply for the people around him, but he also got a bit of an ego, which we see in the way he of all things, brings up how the show wasn't the same after he left.
My jaw was on the floor the first time I saw this. I was fooled into thinking it'd just be a silly show but this episode made it clear it was much more.
Herb was a good person and got ripped to shreds by the entertainment industry, for being gay. Bojack abandoning him would have been just another twist of the knife-imagine how much pain Herb would be in at that point. No wonder he refused to forgive him years later.
Even the show itself doesn't abandon Herb, after he dies they keep showing scenes of how close he and Bojack used to be. He was a man in a million and Bojack threw him away for a sense of validation and fame.
heres my own uncalled for anecdote on apologizing and forgiving. if you have done harm onto someone and you *genuinely* feel regret; apologize. even if the other person doesn't want to accept your apology, its still good to apologize and reconcile with yourself and your actions. the reason why bojack's apology doesn't feel right when we watch it is that; although we know that he genuinely feels bad about what he did to herb, he is asuming that he deserved forgiveness. when we apologize, the point shouldn't be to force forgiveness from the other person but its more of an acknowledgement of the mistakes we've made.
Its interesting you mention Bojack's cowardace and I feel that plays a huge role with Charlotte as well. He has this longing to be accepted, wanted, needed, acknowledged all due to Beatrice's treatment of him. I didn't experience anything that rough, but I have long since healed over my parents' treatment of me. Mom always talked about my deceased half brothers even when I was there, loving her unconditionally, and dad, well, I could never please him. The relatability of the characters and how multifaceted they and their relationships are is just so incredibly and poignantly written.
Herb was the first time i *ever* saw someone sayi dont forgive you like EVER. Hes inspired me to hold ppl accountable for their shitty actions. I dont have to forgive ppl and i can also MOVE ON at the same time❤
The Telescope was the first episode of Bojack Horseman I ever saw, it was in one of my classes during freshman year of college. I had no knowledge about this show other than it was about a horse who used to be famous and there was a character named Todd. This was my first introduction to all these characters and I just sat there thinking what it was Bojack could've done to hurt Herb, and it wasn't what I expected, but not in a bad way. It made me want to watch more and now Bojack Horseman is one of my favorite shows. This episode also taught me that it's okay to not forgive people for what they've done.
I'd say it would have been nice if you watched em in order, but, honestly that was the first episode that was really emblematic of what the show would be, so it's good you were first exposed to it
It's fucked up that we all feel obligated to forgive awful people who don't change.
Oh my god. I forgot that Herb said he wanted to meet Bojack at the planterium again once they made it in the industry. That is so fucked. The planterium is like a symbol for BoJack's crumbling fate.
Thats the thing about making ammends, you can give someone an apology because they deserve one but you are by no means entitled to their forgiveness. You and the person you hurt will ultimately move on, but depending on the severity of the mistake and/or how the person you hurt feels you may just have to live with the fact that there's nothing else you can do to make it better, and that's okay.
This coming from someone who was a real "Bojack" back in the day, which is why I relate to this show so much. Even though I'm a better person now and lucky to have some old and new relationships still intact, I still don't blame the other ones I hurt for cutting ties with me and keeping it that way.
I feel u bro, I was a Bojack of my own and have been trying to make amends in this past year since hurt done 2 years ago, and am grateful for the opportunity to but accept that some people may never acknowledge me again and that is their right
Phenomenal art work in these thumbnails. Especially in the view from half way down analysis
I’ve always said that to forgive someone doesn’t mean you’re saying that what they did was ok and didn’t effect you,
“It just means that you aren’t going to actively let it hold you down and aren’t going to actively resent that person”
And based on the way that Herb treated Bojack, by that definition it really seems like he did forgive him
He didn’t let what happened weight him down in the end and given how he was able to say he it was good to see him again, I don’t think he harbors active hatred
But it’s still good he said “I don’t forgive you” when Bojack asked for it, because even if some part of him did, Bojack isn’t owed that closure or comfort
Forgiveness can* be a comfort for those who have been harmed as a way of moving forward
But the perpetrator isn’t entitled to the comfort of forgiveness
(Warning for personal religious beliefs that you may not agree with)
Only person who’s guretteed to forgive you is God and that’s only when you’re really sorry, and God knows when you’re really sorry so you can’t cheat the Lord
*can doesn’t mean always, maybe it’s not working for you at the moment but you can forgive and acknowledge that something was wrong, you can forgive and not let back in
When Herb said, “I don’t forgive you” I feel like what he really mean was, “I will not absolve you, Herb wasn’t still weighted down by what happened and seemingly isn’t hateful (situational anger is different from hatred, if he hated him he wouldn’t have let him come over or said it was nice to see him), he has moved on, but he’s not gonna absolve him, especially when he’s not really sorry.
Herb wasn’t broken, and when it said, “it’s never ever going to be ok” he didnt mean that he is irepperably fixed, he means what Bojack did was never going to be ok. Which is what Bojack wants to hear deep down, not that Herb was ok now, but that he doesn’t have to feel bad anymore. Herb does feel better mentally, but Bojack still needs to feel regret.
I know Bojack is a coward and that’s hugely why he didn’t speak up for Herb, but to emphasize that he was so afraid of how Herb would react to him letting him get fired that he used it as an excuse to never reach out, when Herb was willing to forgive Bojack for not speaking up.
Herb saying “What I needed was a friend, and you abandoned me. And I will never forgive you for that.” is an even bigger gut punch given that Bojack let his anxiety and cowardice stop him from checking on someone who considered him such a good friend.
Sounds just about right. There are people out there that truly do feel and act like Bojack when they fail to do something they are asked of them...
Yep exactly. His fear paralysed him and he wasn’t dedicated enough to push through that
Why does Bojack have to be perfect to deserve any type of forgiveness? Can't good intentions ever be enough for you people? I'd like to see you react the same way if you ever failed to be less than perfect.
@@BrianSandler20 years and he didn't call herb? That's rough idk
@ 6:06 ‘If Herb is really your friend, he will understand’ she was right, Herb didn’t care so much that he stayed on the show: he cared more about the fact that Bojack didn’t communicate with him for 20 years.
When remembering this episode I often forget that before Herb and Bojack had a nasty argument they were actually enjoying each other's company. Herb didn't even bring up what Bojack did to him, he was just genuinely happy to see Bojack again, even if deep down he felt betrayed. Herb was the first friend Bojack had, and also the first friend to realize their friendship could only work if it had boundaries.
The Telescope was without a doubt the game-changing episode for me watching the show. I've always told people that they have to watch that episode before they decide to quit the series.
I've actually recently begun rewatching the show once again and what a fantastic ride it still is. It might actually have been due to your continued efforts to produce content about and interpretations of it ;)
People wonder why I won’t forgive a teacher who allowed my class to bully me. Forgiveness isn’t deserved, it’s earned. He never apologized, realize what he did, or supported me. I understand people who forgive their abusers but I can’t. That’s my choice. He’s a lesson in not assuming all adults care about you but he didn’t get me to where I am today. He doesn’t deserve that credit
I just wanna say I absolutely love the thumbnails on your Bojack videos they’re just such a clean visual summary of the episode and it’s extremely satisfying seeing new ones each video. I wish I could see every episode visualized like this, maybe someday heehee
Wonderful analysis, always really enjoy your videos.
I really love Herb as a character, he's likable and as someone who's also queer I felt seen when it was revealed he was gay. I can also really feel Herb's pain. Can you imagine that after a spat, your dear friend doesn't speak to you for _twenty_ years? I'd be devastated. The heartache that Bojack put him through is terrible. And even though Bojack knew what he was doing, even though he still could've called Herb any time after his firing, he never did. He never stopped and considered the pain he caused Herb. It really shows his fundamental selfishness.
I just LOVED the fact that herb refused to forgive Bojack unlike most shows where the conflict is handled easily. It breaks the illusion that just feeling guilty is not enough, just saying sorry won't erase your past actions.
absolutely love that no attention is given to the broken telescope. it adds to the sense of lack of closure.
This was a great video! I also feel Bojack kissing an already engaged Diane that same night when she tried to comfort him also says a lot about how selfish he still continued to be.
I honestly feelt Herb had a huge crush on Bojack and that couldve been part of why his betrayal hurt so much. Not saying it wouldnt have hurt with them being very close friends but he did kiss bojack and you dont just kiss someone unless you really like them. So while he may not have had hope of a relationship, he still had rose colored glasses on with bojack. And that got shattered when Bojack betrayed him
Decades of friendship and a crush....
Gone for an opportunity
i cannot put into words how happy i am to see another bojack video from u, love em keep up the good work
Definitely the first episode that made me realise this show's gonna be something special, much like The Storm in The Last Airbender
The telescope is the episode where I started to fall in love with the show. This one got deep and was the turning point in the show where you knew it wasn't just another family guy or Simpsons like adult animated show when Herb refused to forgive Bojack I was like "woah" that never happens on tv shows especially animated ones. The first of the F bombs and it was put in there so perfectly.
This is basically a summary on the the cost of cowardice or passive inaction. Avoiding emotional discomfort or challenge may give u short term relive but as we saw it can have serious unrepairable damage. Bojacks lack of moral and emotional courage costs him his closest relationship due to choosing temporary comfort over doing the right thing
This show just hurts man. Watching someone ruin every relationship in their life until it's too late is just too real.
People talk about Jurassic Bark being emotional
The view from half way down…
love seeing a new bojack from you. you’re the best at analyzing bojack. had to follow you the moment i saw you pop up on tik tok
Thank you!!
Another great video Johnny.
I remember when this episode was being talked about after it aired and how many folks were surprised that they pulled the "I don't forgive you" moment and the discussions that came from that.
Love how you casually refer to that show as Krill and Grace.
I think what’s the saddest thing about all of this was that Herb didn’t even care that he got fired or even if he did, that was never what he was angry about.
It was that Bojack abandoned him and their friendship.
He always had a choice, which he wouldn’t realize until many years later.
This episode hurt so good
8:35 "cutting remarks" like the knife Bojack left in Herbs back
Man, your videos have been increasing exponentially in quality and I’m really glad to see your channel growing.
This was the scene that made me finally watch the show. It was brought to my attention, as I had a close friend show me that she didn't really give a shit when push comes to shove (casting our friendship aside because her boyfriend got jealous). I wondered what it'd be like if (and that's a big "if") she ever apologized and I refused to forgive her.
I mean, I would, because I'm a Christian, but I'll make it clear that there's no hope of ever restoring our friendship.
Forgiving for the sake of it makes you vulnerable for more hurt. This is what I hate about Christianity. It trains you to be a forgiving mat.
This is hands down my favorite episode of the entire series! Thank youuu Johnny ❤
This video was released on 13 March 2023: the day before my 24th birthday, so I’m treating this as an early birthday present
I could watch you analyze every episode and love every second. Keep up the great work on your channel overall man huge fan for a while now.
Its small, but I never see anything about the transitions in these episode analysis. They really set the tone and add impact to your words at times.
Herb is the character I can relate to the most because of a past friendship I had with with someone similar to Bojack
crazy timing, literally just finished rewatching the show yesterday.
Something that just occurred to me
If Herb stayed in contact with Sarah Lynn all that time, that means she wasn't alone. She had someone good in her life looking out for her. Why didn't that have a positive impact in her life? I don't remember the whole show , so remind me if I've forgotten
Now that I re-read my comment I feel like she was used as a plot point to drive the story forward, which is fine. She wasn't the main character after all.
And according to the story she did look at Bojack as more of a father figure than Herb so that would answer my question. Bojacks influence was bigger than Herbs.
@@ola171 If I remember correctly, Bojack and Sarah Lynn used to watch Horsin' Around episodes constantly. So, think Bojack was probably always more important to her, because the show gave her this idea of belonging to a perfect and healthy family, and "The Horse" was always there for her no matter what. Even if it was just acting and fantasy, she grew up there, and it's shown that she didn't even have any friends outside or inside the production. So... I'm not surprised she chose to follow Bojack's example, rather than listen to Herb.
@@ola171i think is also the fact that sarah lynn was too late for getting recovered, the media was too harsh with her. She was like a cartoon britney spears
You know, I finally watched BoJack a while back because of your videos and I think Herb is my favourite of the earlier storylines.
Probably not my favourite moment overall though, that would have to go to in "Sunk Cost and All That" right after BoJack, Princess Carolyn, Todd, and Diane write out every last bad thing on the two whiteboards. BoJack has just told them about Sarah Lynn, and he steps out to his class to talk to them all.
Diane and Princess Carolyn sit there, listening to BoJack talk. Listening to how different he sounds. and they just both take on a sad look to their faces. They're gonna be sad to see this BoJack go.
The flashbacks to herb and bojack as friends always give me sad vibes because it reminds me of when I’m thinking about things I could’ve done different.
The past for a good many people is nostalgic and we long for it because we think it was a better time.
But again, that’s just nostalgia
A detail that I find interesting is that when Herb says that the future is bright, he and BoJack are looking at an artificial sky that I think represents Holyhood and all its artificiality.
Just when I think johnny is done with the Bojack stuff he throws a banger at the back of my head lol
I too remember what Krill and Grace did for society's acceptance of Krill people.
Man, I love all of the thumbnails these videos have
i will never ever get tired of these in depth analyses videos on bojack horseman episodes
Still one of my favorite episodes of the series after all of these years. This was the episode that turned the show around imo. I enjoyed it enough to this point, but The Telescope was when you realized the show would be much more than just another fleeting goofy cartoon.
I never thought about it before but Angela said “if Herb is your real friend, he’ll understand.” And sure enough, Herb understood 😮
I firmly believe that if Bojack accepted Herb's decision to not forgive him, and didn't push for his forgiveness, Herb would have acknowledged some growth and there would still be a chance they can reconcile and rebuild their friendship.
Of course, instead, BJ shows his true colors and intentions which cemented he didn't grow at all, and the visit was only so he would feel better about himself. There was nothing to save in their already doomed friendship. Herb refused to play BJ's game. Even then, Herb offered one last harsh, but necessary lesson that reality is not a sitcom, and that BJ's actions have consequences.
How could they continue a friendship if Herb didn't forgive Bojack?
6:01 and Herb would have understood if Bojack didn't ignore him afterwards
While Bojack is fully culpable here, worth noting is that Herb was in love with him. Bojack’s betrayal is bound up with that, I think.
I was thinking the same thing
Hey Johnny! I have a question. Do you think Bojack is the most well written charcacter in adult animation history? If so, than who are close to him.
i still feel like sarah-lynn's death will be his biggest regret..
In all honesty, even if Bojack really meant his apology, I still don’t think Herb would’ve forgiven him.
Because after carrying that pain of deep betrayal for 20 years, how are two simple words suppose to make him feel better?
Because those aren't just words. They're an expression of regret and willingness to make amends. Why are people here so vindictive and cruel?
@@BrianSandler that's not cruel. You are not obligated to forgive