@@RRM693I agree but I don’t think that’s what they meant. They’re talking about the villains, always the highlight of Kung Fu Panda. Tai Lung, Shen, Kai, into… the Chameleon? Three broken, layered villains, each original in their power, story, motivation, and then “I’m too short.”
I really hope she doesn't get blacklisted or punished in any way for revealing the truth about the production drama. This is so eye-opening to see that so many people behind the scenes had the same problems with this movie that a lot of us did
@@falconeshieldSpeaking of that, there was no NDA at all for anyone. Some of the critics that saw it earlier went full spoiler on their reviews and at least on the hispanic side of the internet, people were making summaries of the movie the moment they finished watching it.
@@falconeshield Even without an NDA, it’s not acceptable in the entertainment industry to openly dissect a bad product (even if it’s their own work). Because of Jack Black’s stamp of approval, she may be okay. A video like this can make studios think Stephanie’s not a “team player” (ie not making issues behind the scenes public). Even if the film flopped, most people that high up in a production only spoke up decades later. By that point, everyone who was part of the production would’ve moved on.
@reinweissritter NDA for production people is different from NDA for review critics. In the moment the movie hit theatres, you are free. For critics it depends on the contract. That being said, even without NDA she might receive some backlash, but whatever she said in this interview it's still her experience and opinion, so I guess she's gonna be fine.
@@JuQui228 There’s 3 writers in the movie. Jonathan Aibel, Glenn Berger, (who both all wrote the KFP movies) and also Darren Lemke. I think Darren was the main writer who mostly sabotaged the movie since he probably wrote the jokes more than both Jon and Glenn. Also, he and Mike came up with the idea that the F5 were on their joke-y missions.
Even with all the production drama, I still believe this movie would've turned out way better if Mike Mitchell didn't push for certain things. I still wish there never even was a Kung Fu Panda 4.
It's ridiculous that studios keep insisting on only casting celebrities instead of voice actors. It's equally baffling that they made a 4th film at all, but of course DreamWorks are just too greedy.
@@WobblesandBean I love a lot of the cast in Dreamworks movies, even though I would prefer real voice actors. But for KFP 4, considering how nothing the new characters were, they should've used real voice actors.
Nah, I don't trust anyone who comes out of a group project saying this is not me, I advocated against everything bad, it's all this guy's fault. Things don't work this way in the real world.
"Feature people don't count TV directing as experience" honestly makes me very sad, as if TV animation is inherently lesser than Feature film animation. This whole team deserved better.
Tv directing is completely different than film directing. The show runner does what film directors do. TV directing is you pop in and shoot your episode and leave. They’re interchangeable.
As a Kung Fu Panda 4 Fan who watched Paws of Destiny & The Dragon Knight. I was pissed off, and really surprised at how the 4th movie basically redid what the shows did, but downgraded to a t.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudios as a 4 dissenter, I have to agree with you equally. I dislike that they retreaded everything in the shows but worse. I was noticing it throughout the movie and was cringing so hard.
I kind of get why they dont consider tv show work the same as movie work - it would be like asking an oil painter to use watercolors. Different techniques, even if both go under the name of "painting".
Ahem, have these Hollywood Executives seen any good TV Shows? The Owl House? Avatar: The Last Airbender (the animated one, not the mediocre live action one or the horrendous live action film)? THE DONKEY KONG COUNTRY TELEVISION SHOW FROM THE 90'S WHERE KING K ROOL CHASES AFTER A MAGICAL CRYSTAL COCONUT?
They could have had a moment where shifu and tailung MET AND MAYBE EVEN MADE UP??? It's a travesty that that idea was axed. The emotional weight that would have carried?! It's been nearly(?) a decade since the first movie, it would have been a massive nostalgia factor for all of us who were the first wave of kung fu panda fans. They missed out HARD. I'm actually so mad that that didn't happen 😢
god i can feel the frustration of the co director is very sad how she seemed to really wanted the tone to stay more true to the original kfp movies but how she got brushed off, it would have been real cool if that was the case
They're usually a safe bet for studios, guaranteed to appeal to all audiences in marketing and be financial successes (just look at the 2000s-early 2010s for how well Blue Sky did primarily making those kinds of films), and they allow for the animators to flex their skills & creativity through crafting zany scenarios. Also, four of their biggest franchises are comedy films - Trolls, Boss Baby, Madagascar, and Shrek (I know Shrek has more dramatic sincerity than the other two, but it's still primarily considered a comedy by many), so they're usually going to be a box office hit. Even Kung Fu Panda is technically a "martial arts comedy franchise," at least according to Wikipedia. Dramatic moments having center stage in their films is often only possible when they're attached to an IP that's already certain to be successful (Puss in Boots: The Last Wish is attached to Shrek), and even more serious first entries like the first HTTYD & KFP films were considered very risky for a studio that was reliant on the revenue made from the blockbuster smashes of Madagascar and the Shrek films.
@@PandoraSwag Or maybe they're salty because Wish's animation looked awful compared to what Disney said they were going for, because the team writing and conducting the music weren't given any direction causing them to produce lyrics that sounded almost ai-generated, because the plot and motives for the characters made no sense, oh, and also there was no romance. I get that some people enjoyed it, kudos to you, but it was still a mess of a movie when you look at it technically
It's so frustrating to hear yet another case of business decisions being a snake that eats it's own tail They hire fucking Angelina Jolie and Jackie Chan to do voices instead of hiring, you know, voice actors Then later down the line hiring these star actors again is too expensive so they basically murder the character for some marginal gains
exactly, I can understand Jack Black because he's the main character and business face of the franchise so its more out of principle to get him back than anything, maybe Jackie Chan too because I think he does the voice actor for monkey in Chinese as well as English and China is big bucks, but for the others? why??? they will all get dubbed anyway🤣🤣🤣💀
I don't understand why some treat recasts like they're taboo. In fact, in KFP's case, don't separate people already voice the Furious Five in the TV shows? Get them to do the movies!
Just a reminder that this was made DURING the 2023 Writers Strike! Now hearing how this was made by mostly animators, this was no surprise. What I'm actually surprised of is how they managed to finish this. Now I have another new perspective on Hollywood and the Animation Industry, knowing how cutthroat and money hungry corporations are. I haven't watched the film and I don't think I plan to. Imo, the third installment has more integrity than this.
Uh, yeah it was made during a writers and actors strike. Making an animated film takes 4-5 years so most of the writing was done back in 2020 or 2021 and any writing changes would’ve had to be made during the storyboarding process. The voice acting is usually done 1-2 years before the movie was released and so it was more of the actors strike that hurt the production because Jack Black, Dustin Hoffman, Viola Davis, Awkwafina, and whoever else were striking or needing permission from the guild in order to finish or do last minute recordings.
@@tmdiz4579 nah bruh that would just be worse, voice acting has a flair even ai can't do, and actually competent or, genuinely good va's are needed, god forbid that all the fun jobs be ai, and all the hard labor is what humans will do
They didn't even have a story bible... Compared to the work done on the past three movies, that's just sad to hear. And Mike Mitchell being considered the lead director and head for the film reminds of a BoJack Horseman quote: "[Film and] TV is a collaborative medium where one person gets to take all the credit." At least Jack Black was considerate enough to consider both the Mitchell and Ma Stine as having important head roles in the production process (he's good like that).
@@youknow2145Having to make a whole feature film in a little under 2 years didn't help for planning out characterization, especially given the original focus on comedy. Though in the end, KFP 4 is still a good movie, just disappointing given the past installments.
That quote reminds me of the OOF.mp4 documentary HBG did, where he talked about that same sort of thing and even referred to Warren Spector’s quote about that sort of thing as well. It’s infuriating tho that when things go wrong ppl pin the blame on the ppl down the totem pole who don’t have the final say on decisions, but heap praises onto higher ups with little to no part in the creative process when things go right. It should really be the other way around.
Holy. Shit. I already knew how screwed the production was from a basic standpoint, but Jesus Christ! Creative disputes, scrapped ideas, explains everything. I genuinely give the team massive props for even getting this far into making this damn film. Gives me a good idea how hectic the animation industry, no, the FILM industry in general can get. I absolutely respect the co director especially for going through the process of working on this film in particular.
The fact that they start animation before even finishing the story says a LOT. Also the fact that this is standard?? Also the damn MARKETING TEAM, getting to dictating the STORY??? This is a creative nightmare imo, I've always wanted to work in creative industries like this, but hearing how stupidly unorganized the process is I may aswell quit while im ahead.
@@kidsto2612it’s Hollywood everything has to have marketing involved. Want to know why theirs a new superhero suit even if it changes practically nothing it’s marketing. Character depth thrown out for easy good vs bad marketing.
I'm so relieved knowing that the chameleon's backstory was a last minute addition. "I was too short for kung fu so I became evil" is a backstory that should only take a minute to come up with.
Po’s entire character is about how him being “a big fat panda” allowed him to utilize king fu in a way others couldn’t, that his specific body type came with weaknesses but also strengths. All three major villains had drastically different fighting styles suited to their body types. Hell, the Furious Five showed that you can do king fu even if you lack arms (like Snake and Crane), and that size doesn’t matter (Mantis). Po even taught kung fu to other pandas who were all far less experienced than him. It sounds a lot like the Chameleon just gave up pretty quickly, which could have been interesting if it was fleshed out more.
The idea of including HUMANS all of a sudden breaks ALL logic with previous films. Thank god they scrapped it entirely. The worst idea for this series, bar none.
I guarantee you the Po in a box thing was a holdover from when it was a half live action film, almost certainly done to get away with not animating the CG character for an extended period
I'm also a moderator of the r/KFP discord, and yes, this interview was... a league of it's own. I was glad to have helped with "control", in not running the interview, but everything to keep the server in "coherent sense" as it occurred (largely digital crowd control it seemed, basically). But something I'll remember for sure (and the community at large, too) and thanks for the video!
Yes, I am a moderator for the KFP discord/sub and can say that day was quite wild, the information was crazy and jaw dropping in parts to hear at the least. But honestly from all this info, this movie ended up just as "a movie of all time".
@@ArcticWolf00Alpha0 i was a normal discord member at the time. Goon, shootbangdang, and object were responsible. I didnt become a mod until afterwards.
@@ArcticWolf00Alpha0 Thank you. (I'm object-195) We were so lucky to get such an opportunity so we're glad that we managed to make good use of it and that people are seeing it.
@@jammygamer8961 Absolutely. I'm (Arctic Avenger 141) Its crazy how much it takes to make a movie, but also how much easier it could have been if the execs didn't give Mitchell full creative control.
“No one knows the real me. Heck, I barely know the real me!” We need more creative people who are unsure, but willing to learn than those who think their God’s gift to Earth.
"The moral of the story is to never become an artist 'cause it's a neverending nightmare" 🤣 goddammit, as someone who's stuck in the "how the hell do I make this concept happen?" phase of my animation carrer, this is painfully accurate.
i liked the movie but it was the weakest, but when i found out about this, now i just feel incredibly sorry for stephanie. hope she directs the next one.
seeing that this only has 300 views is nuts. Your production value compared to your traction is night and day, i hope you really do make it in the YT world
Please never let Mike Mitchell near this franchise again. The Kung Fu Panda films have literally been my favourite films of all time, a large part of that owing to how the films seemed to be aware that they could be serious and tell interesting complext stories AND be banging fun action comedies all tied together with great animation and yummy visuals. I never wanted a 4, for this EXACT reason. If the entry isnt going to be handled with the same dedication and care as the previous titles its going to be EVEN MORE apparent because of the proceeding hits. Ive still not seen 4, and I have no urge to either. I just hope Stephanie Ma gets to helm the next one. She would be amazing.
I'm so glad they got the director of masterpieces such as Alvin and the Chipmunks: Chipwrecked, Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo and Trolls to manage the follow up to one of the best animated trilogies. Such an intelligent decision, Mike Mitchell really proved he could direct with this one, as if his track record didn't already prove that!
@@jeffreyquinde6707 simple. Talk over them and not allow them to work. The exit of the character designer for 1-3 says enough. Director gets to make the decisions, and decide what the writer does. Look at Wonder Egg Priority. The quality of the anime drops off a cliff when the director went to the hospital and the writer got more creative control. The director directs what the writer does, so if the director is an ass then it stands to reason the writers can’t do much to salvage a project if he wants things written a certain way.
Depends - when I see stuff like X-Men 97 getting universal praise, it really goes to show that something doesn't need to be indie nowadays to thrive and get treated well.
@@Stew91 This right here. Sony's AAA as it gets and the Spiderverse formula is admitted to everyone to just have been "they didnt get superinvolved and let us cook". That can happen at any level. But its not always consistent, sometimes within the same company.
I was a part of a test screening for early storyboards and early production. I didn't even know about the human stuff. I really had no idea what the movie was trying to do and every question I answered basically boiled down to "what is this movie?" but they just kept asking about if I found the goofy small characters endearing or not.
Nah, it’s a fire idea. With that logic I expect you to hate The Bad Guys. I do, but having an unbalanced amount of humans to furrie- I mean animal humanoids is odd.
@@braydenleaderofthetirkins1143 I think that's because The Bad Guys, ever since the comics, already established in its story humans and humanoid animals living together whereas in KFP, it was never thought of (not even in the TV shows) until the 4th installment.
Never ever let this dude cook again. EVER! I almost cried at the end of the movie and not because it was good. When you compare any Kung Fu Panda movie to this one you‘ll see the difference even more. Kung Fu Panda 4 is a soulless movie benefiting from the formers success…
Dude??? Is nobody gonna talk about the fact that the STORY is finished last?? Thats insane and stupid as hell. You cant tell a good story without logic.
Nah, without Stephanie and the creative team who spent overtime to get it done, this whole movie would have bombed so hard. I can actually sit back and appreciate this film now. Seriously, imagine if Stephanie's input was not present. Holy shit this would have been such a disaster omg
It would've made more sense if Po initially tried to offer Tigress the Dragon Warrior Title as a means of making up for the past but to his shock she declines stating she no longer wants it or needs it as she and the Five have their own Goals: Viper has taken over her Father's place as Grand Master Viper, Crane has taken up a Teaching Position at his old school Lee Dai Acadamy alongside his old friend Mei Ling the Mountain Lioness, Monkey seeks out troubled youths to redeem as Oogway did for him, Mantis becomes a traveling acupuncturist warrior looking for love and attention, and Tigress has become a wandering warrior also attempting to achieve her inner peace by tracking down her origins before either becoming the New Caretaker of Bao Gu Orphanage or returning to Po's Side to aid him in training Zhen and a new Furious Five. Even a letter left for Po explaining their reasons (Po reads it out loud so movie saves on cameo costs).
This could also be the basis of a solo Tigress movie (because honestly, she is the most interesting of the Five). Bonus points for Shifu finally acknowledging her as his daughter, something she's always wanted as she saw him as her father figure.
In a alternate universe where it was Stephanie Mastine was the one in charge of the film, it would guaranteed be better. I really fucking hate it when film studios are incompetent to let people who care about the universe their film is going to add to be the ones who got shit on and instead have egotistical brain dead bitches be the ones in charge. Happened in Toy Story 4, now in Kung Fu Panda 4. Definitely wish it isn't the film franchises that are so near and dear to me that are getting bastardized.
I seriously hope that she directs the fifth movie, and that she hires better writers... The ones that worked on the fourth sound like real assholes. The movie we got was still good, but it sucks to know it could have been so much better.
This might come as a bit of a shock, as it did to me when I found out, but outside of Darren Lemke, these are the same writers that wrote all of the previous KFP movies.
@@DenisFilippenkov No way! That's a shock for sure, hard to think these are the same people behind the first 3... Don't know why they had to be such dicks to the co director.
Because she's a woman, no major studio will give her a chance. Doesn't matter that Mike was the one in control, or that the only decent parts of the film are because of her. Mike will still have a career, she won't.
@@WobblesandBean That really doesn't feel right considering how Hollywood is today, with all the femenist agenda and putting women in charge of everything... Which makes it even more frustrating, cause when there's finally a woman who's talented, has great ideas and wants to respect the franchise/audience THAT'S the one you choose to ignore??? Goddammit Hollywood!
I read this interview a couple weeks ago and it only upped my disappointment because it made me realize that this movie could have been good, if only they were more willing to listen to Stephanie Stine's ideas.
dude how the fuck do you not have more subscribers?? this shit is so high quality, i hope the algorithm snatches your channel up through the ranks cause damn you deserve it
yeah i could live with it too considering the reasons. It would be a lot better than just writing them out of the story. Honestly I don't get why people keep hiring the most expensive big celebrities for voice acting anyway. I don't watch movies for any big names, I watch them because I'm interested in the movie. I'd rather give less known voice actors a chance to be succesful too instead of listening to the same famous voices in every big movie (who apperantly swallow a huge chunk of the budget).
@@K.I.A22 there are ton of people that can do crazy good impressions, i would rather have the furious 5 with a slightly different voices than never getting them
Thank you for linking my document in your description. It was annoying to see mainly twitter users to take info from it but neglect to share the source itself I think some youtubers did it too? I don't quite remember lol Edit: awesome video too, subbed :)
@@rennythespaceguy7285 Lego movie 2 wasn’t bad from what I’ve remember (then again I’m no critic or someone that knows about movies) but the Lego movies felt like they were getting tiring with doing the same humor every year
@@kevinp.h157 It's very much not the same humour, TLM2 is written notably differently and worse. They insist upon every joke and spell them out in a way the first didn't + it's meta in the annoying lampshading way. While the first film has garnered a reputation for being "meta" it writes any jokes about tropes in a very nuanced way films now don't get. Every joke in the original works on three levels: it makes sense as something the LEGO characters would say, it makes sense as something a kid who had seen a lot of movies would say and it works as a meta commentary on tropes. In the sequel characters just repeatedly say a trope is being done (good thing that was a vision and definitely not a vision, good thing the door is closing so slowly and dramatically, etc) or do the Butch Hartman thing of repeatedly going "trust me this thing is never, ever, ever going to happen" then that exact thing happens (that's literally the first joke in the film) It's characters are weak and underdeveloped, it relies way more on reference humour (what makes the first film funny is every time a pop culture character shows up they're the butt of a joke. They're all jerks or pathetic losers, in the second the joke is always just "it's X from Y" Also, how much they spam the phrase everything is awesome in the sequel drives me insane. In the first it was just a parody son, no-one says it outside of the context of it being a song and it's explicitly not the moral of the film. But because the song was massive the sequel acts like that the thesis of the last film was that. Every five minutes someone says "everything is awesome, everything's not awesome, everything can be awesome etc" and it doesn't at all fit how the original was written it's so blatantly pandering to what most people remember about the original. And that's all the humour is, trying to repeat the original but misunderstanding the joke.
No exaggeration when I say Kung Fu Panda 4 is probably like, the Sonic Forces of movies, because the amount of parallels between the two is surprisingly way larger than you'd think. - Main character is sidelined in their own movie for the epic and awesome new character, but still needs screentime shared between the 2 resulting in characterization and development being undercooked for both - Returning villains hyped up only to either be not real (Chameleon disguising as Tai Lung and all of the other villains in Forces) or not even do anything - New villain who relies on the powers of others (Infinite'a illusions and the Chameleon's transformations), with neither ever really doing much either beyond getting anticlimactically beaten by the 2 main characters. (Neither of them even have proper names! We don't know what Infinite called himself prior to the ruby, and The Chameleon is self explanatory) - Extra third main character who is kinda just there for some reason and doesn't really add much to the experience (Classic Sonic in Forces, and Po's dads in Kung Fu Panda 4) - Narrative which meanders throughout its main body with barely any feeling of stakes, and in the end feels like nothing much even happened - Established side characters are either written out of the story or do literally nothing I'd even argue both suffer from clearly originally being intended as more, but were mismanaged heavily, thus resulting in a final product which is a shell of what was originally intended. Best way I can describe these 2 stories is that they both feel hollow, having cool ideas but never doing anything with them. (Which makes it feel really weird that these are the things which set up new status quos, with the IDW Comics taking place directly after Forces, and Kung Fu Panda 4 now having Po passing on his Dragon Warrior title. Guess even that can count as a parallel between the two, huh.)
Why can't the higher ups just let the people hired to do the actual creative thinking do their work in peace without any meddling. They don't know better, they never do and just want to feel important. This industry and big studios are seriously corrupted. And Im not even going to get into all the extra hours animators are expected to do. I really wish there was something like a fair new studio out there founded by passionate people and perhaps former indie artists that love the work but dislike the state of the industry. I need someone to breathe life and good work conditions back into the industry because it seems to be getting worse and worse
Because they want as much money as possible and they did let the creatives do what they want… if they’re popular enough like Christopher Nolan. and yeah I agree with what you said about needing a new studio lead be indie people with how the industry is right now, it baffles me how there’s no indie studio that’s making 2d movies (based in the US) considering how people want 2d movies to make a comeback desperately
@lyria, and @kevin, going indie isnt a recipe for guaranteed success, just like not every non indie studio deals with corporate B.S. (ex: the works behind Arcane, Blue Eyed Samurai, etc) At the end of the day, it's always about the creatives and executives behind the work.
@@sexy1018 that's true of course. I just noticed that indie people usually put their passion and their vision first when it comes to a project. Big companies meddle. I just think hiring more independant artists now and then or giving them the means to bring their ideas to life would keep things fresh
Such a shame that there were some scrapped interesting things,such as the chameleon backstory,the one in the movie felt just eugh,okay but not like the other 3,its not a bad movie,but couldve been way more cooler,especially when looking at the chameleon she is so COOL,especially her transformation animations.
@@ForteMagalait’s down to what you prioritise in that case. Maybe people don’t want a success but want to stay true to their creative vision without corporate meddling
They keep saying that shen, Kai and the F5's models were made of "sticks and glue". Could they really not just reuse the models from the previous films? Why make new models for such minor roles? And they were going to incorporate HUMANS??seriously?? Wtf??
New films often change things like resolution, animation software, rendering, etc. so it's likely in the ~decade since the last film the technology progressed or otherwise made the older models incompatible
@@Sootielove couldn't they retopologize older models in higher poly counts and reuse rigs and keys? low resolution textures could be an issue, but it seems like it wouldn't be that much work given they already needed skilled 3D artists
@@メシャLikely, no. It isn’t like such as with the 3D models for the recent Pokémon games, where they were made on computers during the time of Sun and Moon before being downgraded in terms of resolution, only to be built back up on continuously game to game. From what we know, these models were meant to be used and improved upon as the tech on handheld Nintendo devices improved to be closer to what was used to create them. “Future-proofing” models has to be planned for, in one way or another.
They apparently can’t reuse models a lot. Talking about Pixar for a bit: I remember hearing that Inside Out 2’s characters had to be made from SCRATCH, and that film was made less than a decade ago. I understand doing that between 1999-2010 for Toy Story 2 and Toy Story 3, but the fact that technology moves that fast is crazy.
This insight was fascinating to me and shows just how allergic some studio heads are to animated family features daring to actually leave a lasting impact beyond selling something or keeping your kids entertained for a bit. That very much explains as far as the film side is concerned in America, the amount of memorable animated family films I've seen in the last decade can be counted on one hand, yet the foreign side of it in many parts of the world are making up for that.
2:43 Ok... that IMDB lineup comprised entirely of mid-to-ok films really explains a lot. This man has never made something on par with the first two Kung-Fu Panda films.
I was hoping the Last Wish was part of a changing tide, but it's pretty clear it's just lightning in a bottle. This is Hollywood after all, can't have a good thing.
@@woshee_real @christ Or just Dreamworks being inconsistent as usual. Example: The same year that Shrek 4 got mass praise, Sinbad flopped a year prior, and then in October of 2004, came Sharktale. Meanwhile in the present, Wild Robot could be good after a string of questionable movies.
She sounds so dissapointed at Mike Mitchell, at every decision and the final product in overall. Its so sad that she stills needs to be respectful to a man that dismissed her opinions as his CO-DIRECTOR. Its incredible that a man like Mitchell can have SO many bad ideas and yet get to direct a sequel for one of the most important series of Dreamworks. Heck, he even got as far as to almost not give a backstory for the villain on a continuation for a movie series whose main attraction besides the action ARE the villains. Its annoying at the best and fucking offensive at worst how these people are getting more and more jobs and the ones that respect not only the og product but the audiences are, as she said, swept under the rug.
Incredible video, and I love how many insights into the industry it revealed. Thank you so much for it. I wanna do film so much, and this video, actually , inspired me to pursue it more because if there are such great people as Stephanie Stine, then there's still hope
"a story is only as good as the villain they present" i don't know who said, or even if i heard someone say it, but i write and analyse stories by that rule always, and it is so good to hear someone repeat those same words! PS: if executives were good at making good CREATIVE decisions, they wouldn't be just executives in the first place! they should be worried about financing the work only!
Remember people: It could have been a *LOT* worse for this movie. The Kung fu panda 4 we got may not be on the same level as the last 3 with what feels like a rushed pace, a somewhat lacking story and the furious five not even showing up until literally the end of the film, definitely the weakest of the franchise yet but its definitely still better than the likes of megamind and the doom syndicate(ironic how both released this year and one looks like it came out on the PS2). And in spite of the reception, its a box office success so far, If Kung fu panda 4 was written the way Mike wanted it to be, i don't think it'd get the box office it'd have and even worse reception than it already does. To the point it'd probably kill any chance of the next two movies happening.
I actually heard on a video essay about movies, it was said that the effects of the movie won’t be on the current movie, but the next one. So say there was a sequel that nobody liked, and was rated poorly. It would still be a box office success, since it is a new movie that isn’t stopped opening weekend, but the third movie would be a box office failure. Because at that point, it’s too late to take back the money you paid for the second movie, so people wouldn’t pay for the third because they were not satisfied with the second.
You can hear the passion her voice and how she really cares about the franchise and it's sad when she sounds defeated when a good chunk of great ideas get scrapped for unfair reasons. It genuinely makes mes sad that this movie could have been amazing with the help of people who genuinely love and care about the franchise.
All im gonna say after listening to this whole video was that the fourth movie should have stuck with the original story where shifu would get kidnapped by the chameleon and po would go out to save him because they could have included moments between tai lung and shifu. Tai lung still feeling bitter about shifu giving him hope of being the dragon warrior and shifu having to go through that guilt while also seeing father-son moments between the two. The story of po having to choose a new dragon warrior feels a little too early to be made
4:51 just remember that animated movies like spirited away, across the spider verse which are both pg rated films for example has longer running times than kfp4
Pretty much. Him and the executives who kept interfering with the movie or making ridiculous requirements for the movie to be 90 minutes because they thought children couldn't pay attention... even though half of their audience isn't children.
I feel like it's an important bit and noooobody on the film's story acknowledged the parallels between Zhen and Po. That absence was specially felt from Po, whose whole arc in the previous two movies dangled around him being abandoned and adopted. He never saw it as relevant for their character development, like... unbelievable.
Stine is so cool to go into all this detail about the movie's production. Seriously, I didn't think this would be so interesting. In a strange sense, it is a little heartwarming that creatives can work against the odds to successfully create and release a movie.
14:04 pretty ridiculous despite the fact the previous 3 movies made nothing near that and were all successes, what’s the excuse going to be for kung fu panda 5?
Next film with have Po get knocked out and out of commission for much of the movie, allowing the newer and less expensive talent to be used most, if the logic is to be right.
Having Tai lung as a companion throughout the movie to take down a greater evil would have been great for the whole dragon warrior thing they had going on in the movie
I’m sure Stephanie Ma Stine is a massive gem to talk to. In fact, she just followed me on LinkedIn recently and not only I’m excited but I hope I’ll work with her someday. It’s ashamed she’s been mostly ignored during this production of a somewhat unnecessary sequel to Kung Fu Panda. But if she did had creative control on the film, I think it could have been amazing. I know she can do greatness. But sadly, this is not the case.
This part at 33:28 where Stephanie revealed that Zhen was originally not going to get an onscreen redemption scene is one of the more surprising things to hear from this interview, both because of the writers' baffling reluctance on putting one in, and the fact that it just seems like common sense to do for a character that's gonna be sticking around for future films. It makes me appreciate the scene we got a little more, even though I do agree with Stephanie that more could've been done with Zhen and Po's friendship that's supposed to drive the emotion for their 2nd fight.
I guess they wanted to do the Han Solo thing where a character has an off-screen realization and returns for the climax, but that wouldn't have worked here
It's so fascinating how the most imcompeted and out-of-touch people are always managers. Like, lets say you are a revered creative director. The moment you are put into team lead or management duty, do you just lose half your brain cells? Do they force you to go through a lobotomy? It's not just that they try to manage the project, they are trying to manage the money. And they can barely do that. So what gives?
The interview was really insightful, and a reminder of the human element behind all these films, how they're still filled with passion. It almost makes me want to try getting into it again, but the horror stories of execs also make me just want to keep my passion as a passion.
Whoever thought up of adding humans should never cook again
Yeah especially only the sonic movies,the detective pikachu movie,and paddington movies did it great
@@Mr.Feather130 It makes more sense in Detective Pikachu because that is how the games are, Pikachu and his human friend solving crime.
@@zeppo1982 yeah but so as the sonic movies since we saw sonic characters interact with human characters in sonic games and Sonic X
@@Mr.Feather130Also, there were the 3D Sonic games for that.
@@DanialTarki yeah and it used to be common for Sonic characters to interact the humans back then
The embarrasment when saying Hu-man city can be felt on her voice.
That works for a TV show only stoners watch. Not for a feature film.
@@falconeshield I'm sorry, but I wouldn't watch that on the strongest shit you would give me.
The horror of reading this comment before things have even started ..
It's as dumb as the anime Hunter x Hunter renaming it's New York inspired city to 'York New City'
Ain't this a voiceover of a transcript, not Stephanie's actual voice?
The main bad guy didn't even have a backstory until the second screening jeez. HUMAN CHARACTERS?! WHAT
They nearly destroyed an element hat made this series stand out
@@fireemblemaddict128 any human character would break any immersion the audience has with kfp
@@RRM693I agree but I don’t think that’s what they meant. They’re talking about the villains, always the highlight of Kung Fu Panda. Tai Lung, Shen, Kai, into… the Chameleon? Three broken, layered villains, each original in their power, story, motivation, and then “I’m too short.”
@@jeromevaleska2014 I'm smol.
@@DragonOfTheMortalKombatI can deny it no longer
I really hope she doesn't get blacklisted or punished in any way for revealing the truth about the production drama. This is so eye-opening to see that so many people behind the scenes had the same problems with this movie that a lot of us did
No NDA, no problem
@@falconeshieldSpeaking of that, there was no NDA at all for anyone. Some of the critics that saw it earlier went full spoiler on their reviews and at least on the hispanic side of the internet, people were making summaries of the movie the moment they finished watching it.
@@falconeshield Even without an NDA, it’s not acceptable in the entertainment industry to openly dissect a bad product (even if it’s their own work). Because of Jack Black’s stamp of approval, she may be okay. A video like this can make studios think Stephanie’s not a “team player” (ie not making issues behind the scenes public).
Even if the film flopped, most people that high up in a production only spoke up decades later. By that point, everyone who was part of the production would’ve moved on.
@reinweissritter NDA for production people is different from NDA for review critics. In the moment the movie hit theatres, you are free. For critics it depends on the contract.
That being said, even without NDA she might receive some backlash, but whatever she said in this interview it's still her experience and opinion, so I guess she's gonna be fine.
No wonder legacy media is dying from all the execs
So, in conclusion, Mike Mitchell needs to listen to ideas from coworkers.
Conclusion: Mike Mitchell should never take the helm of an animated film again.
@@ArcticWolf00Alpha0 Yeah, basically.
Hello
@@ArcticWolf00Alpha0 Hes ruined multiple this point
More like Mike Mitchell should never direct again. He's an incompetent idiot.
its a miracle this movie was coherent at all
It's coherent :'D ?
It is?
YEAH THEY DIDNT EVEN HAVE A STORY BIBLE IS INSANE
I want to have what you smokin, it'll help get my mind off of this shit movie :)
@@unripetheberrby6283 so i've heard 🤷
Moral of the story never let Mike Mitchell cook again
Mike - Cooks raw and burnt
Stephanie - Cooks perfectly
Those writers are also idiots. I think they were sabotaging this whole thing from the beginning. They sounded like teenagers forced to do an essay.
@@JuQui228 There’s 3 writers in the movie. Jonathan Aibel, Glenn Berger, (who both all wrote the KFP movies) and also Darren Lemke. I think Darren was the main writer who mostly sabotaged the movie since he probably wrote the jokes more than both Jon and Glenn. Also, he and Mike came up with the idea that the F5 were on their joke-y missions.
this is why you don't get a crap director like him
Apparently he worked on the sequel to the lego movie
Now it makes sense why the first movie was a masterpiece
And why the sequel was utterly ass
Even with all the production drama, I still believe this movie would've turned out way better if Mike Mitchell didn't push for certain things. I still wish there never even was a Kung Fu Panda 4.
Us moderators and quite a few other members of the community feel the same way sadly
was more interesting, the behind the scenes drama or the movie
It's ridiculous that studios keep insisting on only casting celebrities instead of voice actors. It's equally baffling that they made a 4th film at all, but of course DreamWorks are just too greedy.
@@WobblesandBean I love a lot of the cast in Dreamworks movies, even though I would prefer real voice actors. But for KFP 4, considering how nothing the new characters were, they should've used real voice actors.
@@Maretoast Obviously the behind the scenes.
Moral of the story: Let Stephanie Ma Stine cook
I wish I could wrap her in a warm blanket, serve her tea, fix her cushion and tell her
"It wasn't your fault Steph."
Agreed
You can tell she REALLY CARES
Exactly, im pretty scared for the KFP franchise...well have been since 3 and 4 proved me right...and under Universal. Good GOD.
Nah, I don't trust anyone who comes out of a group project saying this is not me, I advocated against everything bad, it's all this guy's fault. Things don't work this way in the real world.
"Feature people don't count TV directing as experience" honestly makes me very sad, as if TV animation is inherently lesser than Feature film animation. This whole team deserved better.
Tv directing is completely different than film directing. The show runner does what film directors do. TV directing is you pop in and shoot your episode and leave. They’re interchangeable.
As a Kung Fu Panda 4 Fan who watched Paws of Destiny & The Dragon Knight. I was pissed off, and really surprised at how the 4th movie basically redid what the shows did, but downgraded to a t.
@@ShockwaveFPSStudios as a 4 dissenter, I have to agree with you equally. I dislike that they retreaded everything in the shows but worse. I was noticing it throughout the movie and was cringing so hard.
I kind of get why they dont consider tv show work the same as movie work - it would be like asking an oil painter to use watercolors. Different techniques, even if both go under the name of "painting".
Ahem, have these Hollywood Executives seen any good TV Shows? The Owl House? Avatar: The Last Airbender (the animated one, not the mediocre live action one or the horrendous live action film)? THE DONKEY KONG COUNTRY TELEVISION SHOW FROM THE 90'S WHERE KING K ROOL CHASES AFTER A MAGICAL CRYSTAL COCONUT?
They could have had a moment where shifu and tailung MET AND MAYBE EVEN MADE UP??? It's a travesty that that idea was axed. The emotional weight that would have carried?!
It's been nearly(?) a decade since the first movie, it would have been a massive nostalgia factor for all of us who were the first wave of kung fu panda fans. They missed out HARD. I'm actually so mad that that didn't happen 😢
It's been closer to two decades since the first movie...
but atleast we have a mrbeast cameo🤪
I read made out ☠️
god i can feel the frustration of the co director is very sad how she seemed to really wanted the tone to stay more true to the original kfp movies but how she got brushed off, it would have been real cool if that was the case
Why is DreamWorks hell bent on comedy movies. Most of their successful franchises have funny moments but they're not comedies.
They're usually a safe bet for studios, guaranteed to appeal to all audiences in marketing and be financial successes (just look at the 2000s-early 2010s for how well Blue Sky did primarily making those kinds of films), and they allow for the animators to flex their skills & creativity through crafting zany scenarios. Also, four of their biggest franchises are comedy films - Trolls, Boss Baby, Madagascar, and Shrek (I know Shrek has more dramatic sincerity than the other two, but it's still primarily considered a comedy by many), so they're usually going to be a box office hit. Even Kung Fu Panda is technically a "martial arts comedy franchise," at least according to Wikipedia. Dramatic moments having center stage in their films is often only possible when they're attached to an IP that's already certain to be successful (Puss in Boots: The Last Wish is attached to Shrek), and even more serious first entries like the first HTTYD & KFP films were considered very risky for a studio that was reliant on the revenue made from the blockbuster smashes of Madagascar and the Shrek films.
Cuz of illuminations massive success lmao
Shrek started it all and was through and through a comedy
It’s sad to know both KFP4 and Wish died due to executives failing to allow artists to do their job.
Sources on Wish?
@@TheStarBot surely you've seen the various disappointed reviews and exposé's about wish ever since it released?
@@TheStarBot no source they are just salty there’s no romance in wish
@@albedoweatheruno I have seen the disappointment, but never any expose
@@PandoraSwag Or maybe they're salty because Wish's animation looked awful compared to what Disney said they were going for, because the team writing and conducting the music weren't given any direction causing them to produce lyrics that sounded almost ai-generated, because the plot and motives for the characters made no sense, oh, and also there was no romance. I get that some people enjoyed it, kudos to you, but it was still a mess of a movie when you look at it technically
It's so frustrating to hear yet another case of business decisions being a snake that eats it's own tail
They hire fucking Angelina Jolie and Jackie Chan to do voices instead of hiring, you know, voice actors
Then later down the line hiring these star actors again is too expensive so they basically murder the character for some marginal gains
Adding to it, a whole lot of the gross ticket sales comes from overseas anyways, where having a star actor voice means nothing
exactly, I can understand Jack Black because he's the main character and business face of the franchise so its more out of principle to get him back than anything, maybe Jackie Chan too because I think he does the voice actor for monkey in Chinese as well as English and China is big bucks, but for the others? why??? they will all get dubbed anyway🤣🤣🤣💀
I don't understand why some treat recasts like they're taboo.
In fact, in KFP's case, don't separate people already voice the Furious Five in the TV shows? Get them to do the movies!
I hope she doesnt get black listed for doing this interview. Companies dont like you airing their dirty laundry like this...
Just a reminder that this was made DURING the 2023 Writers Strike! Now hearing how this was made by mostly animators, this was no surprise. What I'm actually surprised of is how they managed to finish this. Now I have another new perspective on Hollywood and the Animation Industry, knowing how cutthroat and money hungry corporations are. I haven't watched the film and I don't think I plan to. Imo, the third installment has more integrity than this.
Uh, yeah it was made during a writers and actors strike.
Making an animated film takes 4-5 years so most of the writing was done back in 2020 or 2021 and any writing changes would’ve had to be made during the storyboarding process.
The voice acting is usually done 1-2 years before the movie was released and so it was more of the actors strike that hurt the production because Jack Black, Dustin Hoffman, Viola Davis, Awkwafina, and whoever else were striking or needing permission from the guild in order to finish or do last minute recordings.
This is why we need to replaced all writers and voice actors with AI. Much easier to get movies done that way
@@tmdiz4579 nah bruh that would just be worse, voice acting has a flair even ai can't do, and actually competent or, genuinely good va's are needed, god forbid that all the fun jobs be ai, and all the hard labor is what humans will do
With movies taking years to make, no doubt the script was already done when the strike started, so the writing was not effected.
@tmdiz4579 have fun with your shit movies with everyone looking 3/4ths to the left.
They didn't even have a story bible... Compared to the work done on the past three movies, that's just sad to hear. And Mike Mitchell being considered the lead director and head for the film reminds of a BoJack Horseman quote: "[Film and] TV is a collaborative medium where one person gets to take all the credit." At least Jack Black was considerate enough to consider both the Mitchell and Ma Stine as having important head roles in the production process (he's good like that).
oough jesus christ they didnt even have a story bible..... how did that happened
@@youknow2145Having to make a whole feature film in a little under 2 years didn't help for planning out characterization, especially given the original focus on comedy. Though in the end, KFP 4 is still a good movie, just disappointing given the past installments.
@@youknow2145 Saying jesus christ's name while talking about a lack of a story bible, i dunno if that was intentional or not.
That quote reminds me of the OOF.mp4 documentary HBG did, where he talked about that same sort of thing and even referred to Warren Spector’s quote about that sort of thing as well.
It’s infuriating tho that when things go wrong ppl pin the blame on the ppl down the totem pole who don’t have the final say on decisions, but heap praises onto higher ups with little to no part in the creative process when things go right. It should really be the other way around.
That's because both directors worked with him during the recording sessions. If Stephanie wasn't there, he wouldn't have mentioned that
When she said the TV division got dissolved and is now working on Cocomelon I died inside a little
And megamind rules
Holy. Shit. I already knew how screwed the production was from a basic standpoint, but Jesus Christ! Creative disputes, scrapped ideas, explains everything.
I genuinely give the team massive props for even getting this far into making this damn film. Gives me a good idea how hectic the animation industry, no, the FILM industry in general can get. I absolutely respect the co director especially for going through the process of working on this film in particular.
No disrespect to the artists who worked on this film, but I think it's best that it shouldn't have been made in the first place.
@@jonathanmendezperez7818 All the good ideas got wasted on the spin-off tv show imo.
The fact that they start animation before even finishing the story says a LOT. Also the fact that this is standard?? Also the damn MARKETING TEAM, getting to dictating the STORY??? This is a creative nightmare imo, I've always wanted to work in creative industries like this, but hearing how stupidly unorganized the process is I may aswell quit while im ahead.
@@kidsto2612it’s Hollywood everything has to have marketing involved. Want to know why theirs a new superhero suit even if it changes practically nothing it’s marketing. Character depth thrown out for easy good vs bad marketing.
Please don't use the LORD'S name in vain
I'm so relieved knowing that the chameleon's backstory was a last minute addition. "I was too short for kung fu so I became evil" is a backstory that should only take a minute to come up with.
When she said that I said isn't mantis smaller than her?!
Po’s entire character is about how him being “a big fat panda” allowed him to utilize king fu in a way others couldn’t, that his specific body type came with weaknesses but also strengths. All three major villains had drastically different fighting styles suited to their body types. Hell, the Furious Five showed that you can do king fu even if you lack arms (like Snake and Crane), and that size doesn’t matter (Mantis). Po even taught kung fu to other pandas who were all far less experienced than him.
It sounds a lot like the Chameleon just gave up pretty quickly, which could have been interesting if it was fleshed out more.
OF COURSE it was executive meddling...
The idea of including HUMANS all of a sudden breaks ALL logic with previous films. Thank god they scrapped it entirely. The worst idea for this series, bar none.
I guarantee you the Po in a box thing was a holdover from when it was a half live action film, almost certainly done to get away with not animating the CG character for an extended period
I like how realistic she’s being. She’s not sugarcoating too much I think. I appreciate it
You know who should've been the director of the 4th entry, Joel Crawford!!! He was a story artist on the past films and knows that universe so well
You know, after Puss in Boots: The Last Wish, I say let him and Stephanie co-direct movie 5
No, the director should have been Stephanie.
Joel was actually supposed to direct Kung Fu Panda 4, but got fired from the movie for unknown reasons.
@@antwain2799Bruh, that makes this all the more sad.
@PhoenixWrightAceAttorney I know. I was hyped for the movie when I heard that Joel was diecting it, only to find out Mike Mitchell was directing it.
I never considered that kids movies are limited to 90 minutes just so they can fit more showings into a day. That's crazy
I'm also a moderator of the r/KFP discord, and yes, this interview was... a league of it's own. I was glad to have helped with "control", in not running the interview, but everything to keep the server in "coherent sense" as it occurred (largely digital crowd control it seemed, basically). But something I'll remember for sure (and the community at large, too) and thanks for the video!
moral of the story is that I gotta rewatch kung fu panda 2
Ditto.
Lung flu panda 2
Yes, I am a moderator for the KFP discord/sub and can say that day was quite wild, the information was crazy and jaw dropping in parts to hear at the least. But honestly from all this info, this movie ended up just as "a movie of all time".
You and Object 195 killed it with the interview. Ill never forget how pissed off I was upon reading the interview. Mitchell was a dog crap director.
@@ArcticWolf00Alpha0 i was a normal discord member at the time. Goon, shootbangdang, and object were responsible. I didnt become a mod until afterwards.
@@featheromega8870 Oh. Noted.
@@ArcticWolf00Alpha0 Thank you. (I'm object-195)
We were so lucky to get such an opportunity so we're glad that we managed to make good use of it and that people are seeing it.
@@jammygamer8961 Absolutely. I'm (Arctic Avenger 141) Its crazy how much it takes to make a movie, but also how much easier it could have been if the execs didn't give Mitchell full creative control.
Wow. I am genuinely shocked at how honest this hole interview was. Thank you so much for making it available!
“No one knows the real me. Heck, I barely know the real me!” We need more creative people who are unsure, but willing to learn than those who think their God’s gift to Earth.
"The moral of the story is to never become an artist 'cause it's a neverending nightmare" 🤣 goddammit, as someone who's stuck in the "how the hell do I make this concept happen?" phase of my animation carrer, this is painfully accurate.
As a college student who took an animation course, it's too late to turn back now 😂
i liked the movie but it was the weakest, but when i found out about this, now i just feel incredibly sorry for stephanie. hope she directs the next one.
seeing that this only has 300 views is nuts. Your production value compared to your traction is night and day, i hope you really do make it in the YT world
such high quality
Here before he blows up
He just got 10k views
12K now.
18k!
Stephanie's so calm and amazing with her words but you can tell deep down that her soul is sad. Mike ruined this film something she truly cared about.
Please never let Mike Mitchell near this franchise again. The Kung Fu Panda films have literally been my favourite films of all time, a large part of that owing to how the films seemed to be aware that they could be serious and tell interesting complext stories AND be banging fun action comedies all tied together with great animation and yummy visuals. I never wanted a 4, for this EXACT reason. If the entry isnt going to be handled with the same dedication and care as the previous titles its going to be EVEN MORE apparent because of the proceeding hits. Ive still not seen 4, and I have no urge to either. I just hope Stephanie Ma gets to helm the next one. She would be amazing.
I'm so glad they got the director of masterpieces such as Alvin and the Chipmunks: Chipwrecked, Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo and Trolls to manage the follow up to one of the best animated trilogies.
Such an intelligent decision, Mike Mitchell really proved he could direct with this one, as if his track record didn't already prove that!
I never liked Mike. Such a cocky jerk
Jon and Glenn were worse
@@jeffreyquinde6707well, they actually worked on the first three films, so they had a right to be
@@TheAMVDorf That’s exactly what makes the quality of the fourth film all the more baffling.
@@jeffreyquinde6707 simple. Talk over them and not allow them to work. The exit of the character designer for 1-3 says enough. Director gets to make the decisions, and decide what the writer does.
Look at Wonder Egg Priority. The quality of the anime drops off a cliff when the director went to the hospital and the writer got more creative control. The director directs what the writer does, so if the director is an ass then it stands to reason the writers can’t do much to salvage a project if he wants things written a certain way.
I knew I smelled a rat when I found out he was the director and knowing this makes it more frustrating.
The year of our lord 2024 and the CEOs still think that animated movies are watched only by the toddlers.
And this is why indie animation is thriving.
For real. When the creatives have most of the control the works are always so much better
Don't bring it up.
Depends - when I see stuff like X-Men 97 getting universal praise, it really goes to show that something doesn't need to be indie nowadays to thrive and get treated well.
@@Stew91 This right here. Sony's AAA as it gets and the Spiderverse formula is admitted to everyone to just have been "they didnt get superinvolved and let us cook". That can happen at any level. But its not always consistent, sometimes within the same company.
Dude, shut up. You clearly don’t care about indies.
I was a part of a test screening for early storyboards and early production. I didn't even know about the human stuff. I really had no idea what the movie was trying to do and every question I answered basically boiled down to "what is this movie?" but they just kept asking about if I found the goofy small characters endearing or not.
It’s kinda weird that they wanted to make those bunnies cute and marketable, yet they were vicious and sadistic
@@jeffreyquinde6707 Reading this and wondering if someone saw all the 2000s trends coming back and wanted to resurrect Happy Bunny.
The fact that humans were unironically considered still shocks me
that tells me all I need to know with how much of a mess the final product is....
Nah, it’s a fire idea. With that logic I expect you to hate The Bad Guys. I do, but having an unbalanced amount of humans to furrie- I mean animal humanoids is odd.
@@braydenleaderofthetirkins1143 I think that's because The Bad Guys, ever since the comics, already established in its story humans and humanoid animals living together whereas in KFP, it was never thought of (not even in the TV shows) until the 4th installment.
@@braydenleaderofthetirkins1143 It's a bad idea when in all the previous movies it was just animals. It's jarring and out of place.
Never ever let this dude cook again. EVER! I almost cried at the end of the movie and not because it was good.
When you compare any Kung Fu Panda movie to this one you‘ll see the difference even more. Kung Fu Panda 4 is a soulless movie benefiting from the formers success…
Dude??? Is nobody gonna talk about the fact that the STORY is finished last?? Thats insane and stupid as hell. You cant tell a good story without logic.
I just like how they recognize that Kung fu Panda is definitely more mature and what many people want to see.
Nah, without Stephanie and the creative team who spent overtime to get it done, this whole movie would have bombed so hard. I can actually sit back and appreciate this film now. Seriously, imagine if Stephanie's input was not present. Holy shit this would have been such a disaster omg
Strongest villain of kfp... Mike Mitchell
There is no easter bunny, there is no tooth fairy and there is no Kung fu Panda four
It would've made more sense if Po initially tried to offer Tigress the Dragon Warrior Title as a means of making up for the past but to his shock she declines stating she no longer wants it or needs it as she and the Five have their own Goals: Viper has taken over her Father's place as Grand Master Viper, Crane has taken up a Teaching Position at his old school Lee Dai Acadamy alongside his old friend Mei Ling the Mountain Lioness, Monkey seeks out troubled youths to redeem as Oogway did for him, Mantis becomes a traveling acupuncturist warrior looking for love and attention, and Tigress has become a wandering warrior also attempting to achieve her inner peace by tracking down her origins before either becoming the New Caretaker of Bao Gu Orphanage or returning to Po's Side to aid him in training Zhen and a new Furious Five. Even a letter left for Po explaining their reasons (Po reads it out loud so movie saves on cameo costs).
I didn't watch the movie but I think what they went with is better because they can come back easily if they decided to do a 5th movie.
This could also be the basis of a solo Tigress movie (because honestly, she is the most interesting of the Five). Bonus points for Shifu finally acknowledging her as his daughter, something she's always wanted as she saw him as her father figure.
In a alternate universe where it was Stephanie Mastine was the one in charge of the film, it would guaranteed be better.
I really fucking hate it when film studios are incompetent to let people who care about the universe their film is going to add to be the ones who got shit on and instead have egotistical brain dead bitches be the ones in charge.
Happened in Toy Story 4, now in Kung Fu Panda 4.
Definitely wish it isn't the film franchises that are so near and dear to me that are getting bastardized.
I seriously hope that she directs the fifth movie, and that she hires better writers... The ones that worked on the fourth sound like real assholes. The movie we got was still good, but it sucks to know it could have been so much better.
This might come as a bit of a shock, as it did to me when I found out, but outside of Darren Lemke, these are the same writers that wrote all of the previous KFP movies.
@@DenisFilippenkov No way! That's a shock for sure, hard to think these are the same people behind the first 3... Don't know why they had to be such dicks to the co director.
@@julianpagano1659A sense of entitlement from being the people responsible for managing the previous films in the franchise, possibly.
Because she's a woman, no major studio will give her a chance. Doesn't matter that Mike was the one in control, or that the only decent parts of the film are because of her. Mike will still have a career, she won't.
@@WobblesandBean That really doesn't feel right considering how Hollywood is today, with all the femenist agenda and putting women in charge of everything... Which makes it even more frustrating, cause when there's finally a woman who's talented, has great ideas and wants to respect the franchise/audience THAT'S the one you choose to ignore??? Goddammit Hollywood!
The moment they hired Aquaphina I knew the movie was cooked.
Voice didn’t match the character. It was too fast paced. No drama. No development. I don’t really remember what it was about anymore.
Never let Mike Mitchell cook
I read this interview a couple weeks ago and it only upped my disappointment because it made me realize that this movie could have been good, if only they were more willing to listen to Stephanie Stine's ideas.
nico marlet leaving and refusing to return is one HELL of a harbinger
"TV is not considered canon" this means...
THIS MEANS MEGAMIND RULES ISNT CANON ANFMD BY PROXY MEGAMIND 2 ISNT EITHER
YEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAWWW
Okay, where did that proxy come from? Megamind 2 is not a TV series, nor is it dependant on one's existence.
Brothers, sisters, and variations therupon! Let us celebrate and rejoice!
@@GoodbutevilgeniusSHUT UP AND LET US HAVE THIS MOMENT!
@@Goodbutevilgenius megamind 2 was made by dreamworks animation television and is meant to be the pilot for megamind rules
dude how the fuck do you not have more subscribers?? this shit is so high quality, i hope the algorithm snatches your channel up through the ranks cause damn you deserve it
i didnt even notice the lack of subs until this comment wtf!! thought this was a channel with a few thousand subs
i would have been completely fine with the furious 5 getting new voices
yeah i could live with it too considering the reasons. It would be a lot better than just writing them out of the story.
Honestly I don't get why people keep hiring the most expensive big celebrities for voice acting anyway. I don't watch movies for any big names, I watch them because I'm interested in the movie. I'd rather give less known voice actors a chance to be succesful too instead of listening to the same famous voices in every big movie (who apperantly swallow a huge chunk of the budget).
Honestly, they should have just hired the cast from LOA. Considering that they technically have voiced the characters longer than the movie ones.
No wtf?
@@K.I.A22 there are ton of people that can do crazy good impressions, i would rather have the furious 5 with a slightly different voices than never getting them
@@RNoctowl Case in point, the LoA cast did a damn good job.
Thank you for linking my document in your description.
It was annoying to see mainly twitter users to take info from it but neglect to share the source itself I think some youtubers did it too? I don't quite remember lol
Edit: awesome video too, subbed :)
Seems like Mike had a heavy hand to why this movie turned out as bad as it did
And the co director is the reason why it didnt end up worse than it is
He's already ruined the LEGO movie and Kung Fu Panda series, who knows where he's gonna fuck up next
@@rennythespaceguy7285
Lego movie 2 wasn’t bad from what I’ve remember (then again I’m no critic or someone that knows about movies) but the Lego movies felt like they were getting tiring with doing the same humor every year
@@kevinp.h157 It's very much not the same humour, TLM2 is written notably differently and worse. They insist upon every joke and spell them out in a way the first didn't + it's meta in the annoying lampshading way. While the first film has garnered a reputation for being "meta" it writes any jokes about tropes in a very nuanced way films now don't get. Every joke in the original works on three levels: it makes sense as something the LEGO characters would say, it makes sense as something a kid who had seen a lot of movies would say and it works as a meta commentary on tropes. In the sequel characters just repeatedly say a trope is being done (good thing that was a vision and definitely not a vision, good thing the door is closing so slowly and dramatically, etc) or do the Butch Hartman thing of repeatedly going "trust me this thing is never, ever, ever going to happen" then that exact thing happens (that's literally the first joke in the film)
It's characters are weak and underdeveloped, it relies way more on reference humour (what makes the first film funny is every time a pop culture character shows up they're the butt of a joke. They're all jerks or pathetic losers, in the second the joke is always just "it's X from Y"
Also, how much they spam the phrase everything is awesome in the sequel drives me insane. In the first it was just a parody son, no-one says it outside of the context of it being a song and it's explicitly not the moral of the film. But because the song was massive the sequel acts like that the thesis of the last film was that. Every five minutes someone says "everything is awesome, everything's not awesome, everything can be awesome etc" and it doesn't at all fit how the original was written it's so blatantly pandering to what most people remember about the original.
And that's all the humour is, trying to repeat the original but misunderstanding the joke.
No exaggeration when I say Kung Fu Panda 4 is probably like, the Sonic Forces of movies, because the amount of parallels between the two is surprisingly way larger than you'd think.
- Main character is sidelined in their own movie for the epic and awesome new character, but still needs screentime shared between the 2 resulting in characterization and development being undercooked for both
- Returning villains hyped up only to either be not real (Chameleon disguising as Tai Lung and all of the other villains in Forces) or not even do anything
- New villain who relies on the powers of others (Infinite'a illusions and the Chameleon's transformations), with neither ever really doing much either beyond getting anticlimactically beaten by the 2 main characters. (Neither of them even have proper names! We don't know what Infinite called himself prior to the ruby, and The Chameleon is self explanatory)
- Extra third main character who is kinda just there for some reason and doesn't really add much to the experience (Classic Sonic in Forces, and Po's dads in Kung Fu Panda 4)
- Narrative which meanders throughout its main body with barely any feeling of stakes, and in the end feels like nothing much even happened
- Established side characters are either written out of the story or do literally nothing
I'd even argue both suffer from clearly originally being intended as more, but were mismanaged heavily, thus resulting in a final product which is a shell of what was originally intended. Best way I can describe these 2 stories is that they both feel hollow, having cool ideas but never doing anything with them. (Which makes it feel really weird that these are the things which set up new status quos, with the IDW Comics taking place directly after Forces, and Kung Fu Panda 4 now having Po passing on his Dragon Warrior title. Guess even that can count as a parallel between the two, huh.)
Sounds like the writers didnt know basic storytelling
Also in the 220th commenter
Why can't the higher ups just let the people hired to do the actual creative thinking do their work in peace without any meddling. They don't know better, they never do and just want to feel important. This industry and big studios are seriously corrupted. And Im not even going to get into all the extra hours animators are expected to do. I really wish there was something like a fair new studio out there founded by passionate people and perhaps former indie artists that love the work but dislike the state of the industry. I need someone to breathe life and good work conditions back into the industry because it seems to be getting worse and worse
Dont worry - The Wild Robot will breath new life back into Dreamworks. They have had plenty of mishaps before.
Because they want as much money as possible and they did let the creatives do what they want… if they’re popular enough like Christopher Nolan. and yeah I agree with what you said about needing a new studio lead be indie people with how the industry is right now, it baffles me how there’s no indie studio that’s making 2d movies (based in the US) considering how people want 2d movies to make a comeback desperately
@lyria, and @kevin, going indie isnt a recipe for guaranteed success, just like not every non indie studio deals with corporate B.S. (ex: the works behind Arcane, Blue Eyed Samurai, etc) At the end of the day, it's always about the creatives and executives behind the work.
@@sexy1018 that's true of course. I just noticed that indie people usually put their passion and their vision first when it comes to a project. Big companies meddle. I just think hiring more independant artists now and then or giving them the means to bring their ideas to life would keep things fresh
Such a shame that there were some scrapped interesting things,such as the chameleon backstory,the one in the movie felt just eugh,okay but not like the other 3,its not a bad movie,but couldve been way more cooler,especially when looking at the chameleon she is so COOL,especially her transformation animations.
Going independent sounds nicer and nicer tbh hearing this.
Yeah but also means trying to look for work immediately after you did your project.
That doesnt mean that your project will be a hit or even be good
@@ForteMagalait’s down to what you prioritise in that case. Maybe people don’t want a success but want to stay true to their creative vision without corporate meddling
Yeah but where’s the money?
They keep saying that shen, Kai and the F5's models were made of "sticks and glue". Could they really not just reuse the models from the previous films? Why make new models for such minor roles?
And they were going to incorporate HUMANS??seriously?? Wtf??
New films often change things like resolution, animation software, rendering, etc. so it's likely in the ~decade since the last film the technology progressed or otherwise made the older models incompatible
@@Sootielove couldn't they retopologize older models in higher poly counts and reuse rigs and keys? low resolution textures could be an issue, but it seems like it wouldn't be that much work given they already needed skilled 3D artists
@@メシャ It would likely stick out like a sore thumb, considering how long its been since the second film.
@@メシャLikely, no. It isn’t like such as with the 3D models for the recent Pokémon games, where they were made on computers during the time of Sun and Moon before being downgraded in terms of resolution, only to be built back up on continuously game to game.
From what we know, these models were meant to be used and improved upon as the tech on handheld Nintendo devices improved to be closer to what was used to create them. “Future-proofing” models has to be planned for, in one way or another.
They apparently can’t reuse models a lot. Talking about Pixar for a bit:
I remember hearing that Inside Out 2’s characters had to be made from SCRATCH, and that film was made less than a decade ago.
I understand doing that between 1999-2010 for Toy Story 2 and Toy Story 3, but the fact that technology moves that fast is crazy.
This insight was fascinating to me and shows just how allergic some studio heads are to animated family features daring to actually leave a lasting impact beyond selling something or keeping your kids entertained for a bit. That very much explains as far as the film side is concerned in America, the amount of memorable animated family films I've seen in the last decade can be counted on one hand, yet the foreign side of it in many parts of the world are making up for that.
2:43
Ok... that IMDB lineup comprised entirely of mid-to-ok films really explains a lot. This man has never made something on par with the first two Kung-Fu Panda films.
The moment they showed the "competition" to choose the next dragon warrior I KNEW the writers or whatever didn't care about the franchise.
Puss and Boots 2 was such a good movie…
What the hell is happening at dream works?
Like many companies in hollywood, corporate greed, toxicity in the workplace, etc.
Well, them moving away from animating in-house as part of a layoff is definitely a sign of where their priorities lie.
I was hoping the Last Wish was part of a changing tide, but it's pretty clear it's just lightning in a bottle. This is Hollywood after all, can't have a good thing.
@@woshee_real @christ Or just Dreamworks being inconsistent as usual. Example: The same year that Shrek 4 got mass praise, Sinbad flopped a year prior, and then in October of 2004, came Sharktale. Meanwhile in the present, Wild Robot could be good after a string of questionable movies.
@@Stew91 Do you mean Shrek 2?
She sounds so dissapointed at Mike Mitchell, at every decision and the final product in overall. Its so sad that she stills needs to be respectful to a man that dismissed her opinions as his CO-DIRECTOR.
Its incredible that a man like Mitchell can have SO many bad ideas and yet get to direct a sequel for one of the most important series of Dreamworks. Heck, he even got as far as to almost not give a backstory for the villain on a continuation for a movie series whose main attraction besides the action ARE the villains.
Its annoying at the best and fucking offensive at worst how these people are getting more and more jobs and the ones that respect not only the og product but the audiences are, as she said, swept under the rug.
Yeah. Some ideas were pretty good and he just dismissed them.
Incredible video, and I love how many insights into the industry it revealed. Thank you so much for it. I wanna do film so much, and this video, actually , inspired me to pursue it more because if there are such great people as Stephanie Stine, then there's still hope
"a story is only as good as the villain they present" i don't know who said, or even if i heard someone say it, but i write and analyse stories by that rule always, and it is so good to hear someone repeat those same words!
PS: if executives were good at making good CREATIVE decisions, they wouldn't be just executives in the first place! they should be worried about financing the work only!
his IMBD credits are indeed long. I wouldnt exactly say impressive
this definitely makes me realize how hard is it creating moves and shows
Remember people:
It could have been a *LOT* worse for this movie.
The Kung fu panda 4 we got may not be on the same level as the last 3 with what feels like a rushed pace, a somewhat lacking story and the furious five not even showing up until literally the end of the film, definitely the weakest of the franchise yet but its definitely still better than the likes of megamind and the doom syndicate(ironic how both released this year and one looks like it came out on the PS2). And in spite of the reception, its a box office success so far,
If Kung fu panda 4 was written the way Mike wanted it to be, i don't think it'd get the box office it'd have and even worse reception than it already does. To the point it'd probably kill any chance of the next two movies happening.
I actually heard on a video essay about movies, it was said that the effects of the movie won’t be on the current movie, but the next one. So say there was a sequel that nobody liked, and was rated poorly. It would still be a box office success, since it is a new movie that isn’t stopped opening weekend, but the third movie would be a box office failure. Because at that point, it’s too late to take back the money you paid for the second movie, so people wouldn’t pay for the third because they were not satisfied with the second.
Steph and the creative team fucking carried this franchise so hard its not even funny.
You can hear the passion her voice and how she really cares about the franchise and it's sad when she sounds defeated when a good chunk of great ideas get scrapped for unfair reasons. It genuinely makes mes sad that this movie could have been amazing with the help of people who genuinely love and care about the franchise.
All im gonna say after listening to this whole video was that the fourth movie should have stuck with the original story where shifu would get kidnapped by the chameleon and po would go out to save him because they could have included moments between tai lung and shifu. Tai lung still feeling bitter about shifu giving him hope of being the dragon warrior and shifu having to go through that guilt while also seeing father-son moments between the two. The story of po having to choose a new dragon warrior feels a little too early to be made
This is so fascinating!! As someone who's trying to get into feature editing for animation, this was such a treat to learn about!
The note about scenes starting sad and ending happy and vice versa is so interesting!
I really like the cut at 10:02, a great picture with the most evil villain: the stairs. It nicely underlines what is said.
4:51 just remember that animated movies like spirited away, across the spider verse which are both pg rated films for example has longer running times than kfp4
This is kind of why you never make a 4th installment unless you're 100% sure you can pull it off.
32:42 I’m not gonna lie if they kept this in the film, it could have been probably the best moment in the Kung Fu Panda series.
Really insightful and informative video! Keep up the good work mate 👍
sooo mike mitchell is the villain here? never let him cook again orrr?
Pretty much. Him and the executives who kept interfering with the movie or making ridiculous requirements for the movie to be 90 minutes because they thought children couldn't pay attention... even though half of their audience isn't children.
Even if this movie was good you still shouldn’t let him cook
I feel like it's an important bit and noooobody on the film's story acknowledged the parallels between Zhen and Po. That absence was specially felt from Po, whose whole arc in the previous two movies dangled around him being abandoned and adopted. He never saw it as relevant for their character development, like... unbelievable.
Stine is so cool to go into all this detail about the movie's production. Seriously, I didn't think this would be so interesting. In a strange sense, it is a little heartwarming that creatives can work against the odds to successfully create and release a movie.
Ugh, I'm glad I ditched my dream of working for Dreamworks while in college. Dodged an ego-run BULLET!
14:04 pretty ridiculous despite the fact the previous 3 movies made nothing near that and were all successes, what’s the excuse going to be for kung fu panda 5?
Next film with have Po get knocked out and out of commission for much of the movie, allowing the newer and less expensive talent to be used most, if the logic is to be right.
Having Tai lung as a companion throughout the movie to take down a greater evil would have been great for the whole dragon warrior thing they had going on in the movie
I’m sure Stephanie Ma Stine is a massive gem to talk to. In fact, she just followed me on LinkedIn recently and not only I’m excited but I hope I’ll work with her someday. It’s ashamed she’s been mostly ignored during this production of a somewhat unnecessary sequel to Kung Fu Panda. But if she did had creative control on the film, I think it could have been amazing. I know she can do greatness. But sadly, this is not the case.
This part at 33:28 where Stephanie revealed that Zhen was originally not going to get an onscreen redemption scene is one of the more surprising things to hear from this interview, both because of the writers' baffling reluctance on putting one in, and the fact that it just seems like common sense to do for a character that's gonna be sticking around for future films. It makes me appreciate the scene we got a little more, even though I do agree with Stephanie that more could've been done with Zhen and Po's friendship that's supposed to drive the emotion for their 2nd fight.
I guess they wanted to do the Han Solo thing where a character has an off-screen realization and returns for the climax, but that wouldn't have worked here
It's so fascinating how the most imcompeted and out-of-touch people are always managers.
Like, lets say you are a revered creative director. The moment you are put into team lead or management duty, do you just lose half your brain cells? Do they force you to go through a lobotomy? It's not just that they try to manage the project, they are trying to manage the money. And they can barely do that. So what gives?
Most of the managers are BUSINESS managers, not even past writers sometimes.
Jheez, poor Dreamwork's guys. "They're making Cocomelon" How the mighty have fallen.
Dreamworks changed a lot after the acquisition by Universal. It feels that they are getting too much influence from Illumination nowadays.
The interview was really insightful, and a reminder of the human element behind all these films, how they're still filled with passion. It almost makes me want to try getting into it again, but the horror stories of execs also make me just want to keep my passion as a passion.
“Never become an artist because it’s a never ending nightmare”
BASED
Kai: I spend 500 years in the spirit realm !!!!
Also Kai:
*Walks back in casually*
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂