Rahdo hits it with the discussion of the roles at the end. All of the OtB roles (except epidemiologist - a poor man's researcher) are good enough that they could easily be in the base game. On the other hand many of the ItL, and especially SoE, roles are much more situational and often a bit too complex for their own good. All of the expansion modules are nice as extra flavor, but at the end of the day what makes Pandemic great is figuring out how the roles interact with one another and how to use your combination effectively, so that alone makes OtB the strongest expansion in my mind
On the Brink saved Pandemic for me and my wife. I thought the base game was simple and lacked the complexity and flavor I had anticipated. The mutation and virulent strain rules have made all the difference. We love the game now.
If you make actually completing (all/some/a few) games a stretch goal in your next Kickstarter campaign, I will back the **** our of it. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched your run-throughs (400+?), only to be left with a cliffhanger at the end of the extended run-through video... I know you want to give us a "taste" of the games and just enough to make up our own minds, but I have to tell you: it is very often (though not always) painful to be left hanging at the end of the second video, asking ourselves: WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?? WHAT WILL JEN DO?? PLEASE TELL US!! Wonderful job, Richard, as always. :D Thank you!
There absolutely is hidden movement involved, even if you often reveal a location you've been in (and possibly even out yourself completely) and being captured is not the end and may even be tactical. I would say that OtB is not using the wrong terminology, but rather that we've collectively become to used to "find/capture/fight the hidden player" win/loss-conditions being implied with hidden movement. And perhaps we should also distinguish hidden-movement mechanics from hidden-movement games. Hidden-movement games revolve around the hidden movement, and for that it makes sense that there is some win/loss condition based on being found (with extra steps such as capture/fight). OtB uses a hidden-movement mechanic, but it doesn't revolve around it, it still revolves around the central theme of Pandemic. Heck, I've even seen people suggest that Fury of Dracula isn't a true hidden-movement game because finding Dracula isn't enough, you then also need to get to him and then fight him (and he can escape, thereby making you go trough those steps again), and for that you also need to prepare yourself rather than just focusing on finding him. Personally I'd say FoD still is a true hidden movement game, but yeah, there are people who already think that additions like that make it not a true hidden movement game any longer.
I have to make a case for Containment specialist being great too as even though he only really works for cities with 2 or 3 cubes with the same color, he could mean the difference of a chain outbreak happening and/or losing because you ran out of cubes.
@rahdo I know you've said Letters from Whitechapel is a no-go due to the theme, but mechanically it is my favorite of all the hidden movement games. It is the purest and most elegant, yet is also the most tense and dramatic. If Jack is caught the game is over, so the stakes are high. Meanwhile the hunters are playing a game of pure deduction that is more satisfying than any other deduction game I've played. Actually, I would argue Whitechapel is to Hidden Movement what base Pandemic is to cooperative games - both are clean and elegant while being incredibly tense and puzzle-y. Whitechapel even has that roller coaster feel where things can go from slow to teetering on the edge of chaos very quickly. They seem to share similar design philosophies. Also, about the powerfulness of the Medic vs the Generalist: In our Pandemic Legacy campaign we purposefully made it a point to never use the Medic, but used the Generalist in almost every game. And it seems we faired better than most groups.
+atonaltensor Agree, Whitechapel is the best Hidden Movement game, it's simple, elegant and yet deep in strategy. Can't wait to hear more about Whitehall, the new game coming out, hopefully this year, from Gabriele Mari and Gianluca Santopietro.
On the brink adds more of the good stuff, and introduces challenges that are fun and engaging. In the Lab is thematic and adds the extra flavor of researching and processing the cures. State of Emergency adds unnecessary complexity to the game, the only good thing about it is Emergency Event cards, really bad expansion that last one.
I've read and seen videos of pandemic plus expansions and was sold bought the whole bundle. Even starting out you shouldn't play with out OTB's virulent strain or mutation challenges. The Virulent strain aspect was so threatening right off the getgo even when I started out with 4 epidemic cards. Since then it's been 5+ depending on my mood. That said I wouldn't have bought Pandemic without expansions.
Yeah I am not a fan either, for the same reason. But i do sleeve every card from every game I buy and pack all components into individual bags to aid with setup. This often adds enough bulk to games that at the very least I end up throwing the insert out completely. With expansions I usually leave them in their own box as a way of separating the components from the main game, unless i know i always play with that expansion.
Rahdo hits it with the discussion of the roles at the end. All of the OtB roles (except epidemiologist - a poor man's researcher) are good enough that they could easily be in the base game. On the other hand many of the ItL, and especially SoE, roles are much more situational and often a bit too complex for their own good. All of the expansion modules are nice as extra flavor, but at the end of the day what makes Pandemic great is figuring out how the roles interact with one another and how to use your combination effectively, so that alone makes OtB the strongest expansion in my mind
On the Brink saved Pandemic for me and my wife. I thought the base game was simple and lacked the complexity and flavor I had anticipated. The mutation and virulent strain rules have made all the difference. We love the game now.
If you make actually completing (all/some/a few) games a stretch goal in your next Kickstarter campaign, I will back the **** our of it. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched your run-throughs (400+?), only to be left with a cliffhanger at the end of the extended run-through video... I know you want to give us a "taste" of the games and just enough to make up our own minds, but I have to tell you: it is very often (though not always) painful to be left hanging at the end of the second video, asking ourselves: WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?? WHAT WILL JEN DO?? PLEASE TELL US!!
Wonderful job, Richard, as always. :D
Thank you!
Specifically, the roles and the petri dishes should have been in the base game. This expansion could easily mostly be part of the base game.
There absolutely is hidden movement involved, even if you often reveal a location you've been in (and possibly even out yourself completely) and being captured is not the end and may even be tactical.
I would say that OtB is not using the wrong terminology, but rather that we've collectively become to used to "find/capture/fight the hidden player" win/loss-conditions being implied with hidden movement.
And perhaps we should also distinguish hidden-movement mechanics from hidden-movement games.
Hidden-movement games revolve around the hidden movement, and for that it makes sense that there is some win/loss condition based on being found (with extra steps such as capture/fight).
OtB uses a hidden-movement mechanic, but it doesn't revolve around it, it still revolves around the central theme of Pandemic.
Heck, I've even seen people suggest that Fury of Dracula isn't a true hidden-movement game because finding Dracula isn't enough, you then also need to get to him and then fight him (and he can escape, thereby making you go trough those steps again), and for that you also need to prepare yourself rather than just focusing on finding him.
Personally I'd say FoD still is a true hidden movement game, but yeah, there are people who already think that additions like that make it not a true hidden movement game any longer.
I have to make a case for Containment specialist being great too as even though he only really works for cities with 2 or 3 cubes with the same color, he could mean the difference of a chain outbreak happening and/or losing because you ran out of cubes.
@rahdo I know you've said Letters from Whitechapel is a no-go due to the theme, but mechanically it is my favorite of all the hidden movement games. It is the purest and most elegant, yet is also the most tense and dramatic. If Jack is caught the game is over, so the stakes are high. Meanwhile the hunters are playing a game of pure deduction that is more satisfying than any other deduction game I've played. Actually, I would argue Whitechapel is to Hidden Movement what base Pandemic is to cooperative games - both are clean and elegant while being incredibly tense and puzzle-y. Whitechapel even has that roller coaster feel where things can go from slow to teetering on the edge of chaos very quickly. They seem to share similar design philosophies.
Also, about the powerfulness of the Medic vs the Generalist: In our Pandemic Legacy campaign we purposefully made it a point to never use the Medic, but used the Generalist in almost every game. And it seems we faired better than most groups.
+atonaltensor Agree, Whitechapel is the best Hidden Movement game, it's simple, elegant and yet deep in strategy. Can't wait to hear more about Whitehall, the new game coming out, hopefully this year, from Gabriele Mari and Gianluca Santopietro.
On the brink adds more of the good stuff, and introduces challenges that are fun and engaging. In the Lab is thematic and adds the extra flavor of researching and processing the cures. State of Emergency adds unnecessary complexity to the game, the only good thing about it is Emergency Event cards, really bad expansion that last one.
I've read and seen videos of pandemic plus expansions and was sold bought the whole bundle. Even starting out you shouldn't play with out OTB's virulent strain or mutation challenges. The Virulent strain aspect was so threatening right off the getgo even when I started out with 4 epidemic cards. Since then it's been 5+ depending on my mood. That said I wouldn't have bought Pandemic without expansions.
Good lord, You could have just gotten a box FROM ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET. And just written pandemic on the side of it!
why bother with boxes at all? just put all the components in plastic bags and leave them in a pile in the corner of the room! :)
+rahdo in all seriousness there are 3rd party companies that provide boxes to fit the contents of many popular games that have many expansions.
yup, too rich for my blood though :)
Yeah I am not a fan either, for the same reason. But i do sleeve every card from every game I buy and pack all components into individual bags to aid with setup.
This often adds enough bulk to games that at the very least I end up throwing the insert out completely.
With expansions I usually leave them in their own box as a way of separating the components from the main game, unless i know i always play with that expansion.