It looks cold on the day of filming, wouldn’t the air temps have affected the aerodynamics? Colder air is much denser after all? Perhaps Boliver Fridgewater has a mate who could enlighten us?
I am Bill Thornton, the record holder for a production Velomobile at Battle Mountain; 60.87 mph, or right at 98 km/hr. I think Manon did pretty good considering little recumbent experience, and colder weather which would negativity effect a conventional road/track bike worse than a Velomobile. (Denser air) If I were coaching her, first: ,1. Remove some cold weather clothing. You'll overheat in Velomobile; I wear cycling shorts and a short sleeve shirt down to zero C or about 32 deg F. It's nippy at first, but you warm up quickly, because your enclosed. It gets warm. 2. Her FTP type is likely a 1, I am a closer to FTP type 2. 3. It takes about two months if you have never riden a Velo coming from a triangle frame bike, to learn to maximize power output. Even after adapting, if you switch between a road bike (or track bike), and a recumbent, give yourself two weeks to readapt. Two months initially. 3. You build to top speed in stages, NOT all at once. 300 meters to do this is not the right approach. Certainly true at Battle Mountain. At Battle Mountain, guys who can generate 2,000 plus watts have FAILED because they didn't build speed in stages first, and burned themselves out. 4. You should adapt your FTP type to the task of building to top speed. Someone who is max at FTP 4, like a 1 hr time trial specialist will have a different staged approach than a sprinter will. The secret is to build speed in stages without killing yourself, and have interval sprinting abilities according to your FTP type. Kevin Sirue holds to world record 200 meter men's track at like 9.35. If he tried sprinting all at once at Battle Mountain, he wouldn't break any records of not staged correctly. 5. Again Manon did really well for never having adapted to the recumbent style of the Milan, also the steering and handling takes time to learn how to steer smoothly and simultaneously apply max wattage. Especially since air at 32 f has about 7 percent more drag than air at 85 deg. Records are not set when it's freezing ! Cold temperatures and head winds do not slow down a Milan near as much as a conventional bicycle, but there is still some speed lost. Cars with internal combustion engines actually produce more power when it's colder, humans do not. Because cars make more power when cold, their top speeds at 35 deg are about the same as at 90 deg. Humans on bikes can go faster at 90 degrees.
@@mikemowett7401 Thanks Mike. I hurt my right knee a little bit on vacation 2 weeks ago. I am stubborn and still rode my bike anyway, but I think I need to take a week off from riding and hopefully it will get better.. I have not ridden in four days. Hate taking more time off, but I think I need too. Its a little better, but still there on the stairs in my house (maybe i should crawl up the stairs !) I want to try for 100 km/hr (62.137 mph) at Battle Mountain again if this COVID situation finally subsides world-wide. I hope it does, so the event can happen !
@Abduljabar Amirbekov No. Have not. Not sure about that, or if it would fit. There is a carbon fibre wheel fairing that encircles the rim like a donut. Would have to measure.
Smiles per mile with my velomobile, especially when there is a cold rain, 50 mph plus winds, storms and even light snow. The normal cyclists are inside on trainers while I am enjoying the outside. Some of the most beautiful views have been when I would not pedal a road bike and all the cars could not see the awe inspiring majesty of the storm directly over their heads. I was a tad chilly on my face and chest but the experience was worth it. I didn't buy a velomobile for speed. I bought a velomobile so I could pedal through anything except snow beyond ankle deep.
@@hoekie3652 it's a circuit so at some point in the lap it would be giving a benefit. How much would alter the whole way around and it'd never be a disadvantage so...🤔
I love this video, Manon flying in my Milan SL. A little more practice in the beast and she would go a lot quicker, The invite is still open Manon for you to represent team Velo Ads at the worlds this summer.
Hard acceleration all the way will not get you to your personal top speed in a velomobile. Because of their lack of aerodynamic drag, they'll teach you the meaning of E = 1/2 * m * v² very quickly. It takes its time to pump a velomobile full of all that kinetic energy. Go easy until 60 kph (which in a properly set up Milan SL on a warm day with race tyres on a level and good road will take only about 200W), then a little harder until 70 kph (~280W) and then all out. With proper gearing, 600W should then get you close to 90 kph. But you need a lot of road to do this. While acceleration is hard, velomobiles are insanely good at keeping speed. I have no video of a Milan SL on a level surface at hand but here's me on a 20 km long stretch of road that has an almost constant downhill gradient of about 1%. That resulted in an average(!) speed of over 77 kph: th-cam.com/video/a7Ps6tOR4aA/w-d-xo.html
@Alan Uren The Milan is actually very stable at those speeds (dare I say "disappointingly unspectacular"?). When it's not it's usually the driver's fault. Look at the Milan swaying from side to side around minute one when I'm approaching 100 kph. That's me getting uncoordinated beyond 120 rpm, not the Milan generating lift or anything. I even stopped pedaling, concentrated and started again (didn't help much as you can see). I wasn't close to losing control but you've got to respect those speeds. You could even do this in harsh crosswinds (bft 7+) because the Milan's aerodynamics are made for that, too. Center of gravity and center of pressure are very close together and there is a controlled stall effect (for crosswinds). Furthermore, crosswinds (from about 20° on, which I would still count as headwind) do propel you forward because of a sail effect, sometimes even noticeably.
To be fair probably evens out the benefits in parts of the circuit of having a camera car there so in the end the filming would be neutral... Maybe, ish, sort of... 🤔 Let's face it they have to film these things somehow so. It's always bothered me with their "science" runs. Even when trying to see the benefits of Aero stuff they often have a camera vehicle in front of them but again it's a TH-cam channel so got to get footage somehow.
The larger effect was the filming car towing her to the line. Its in the shot a few times, its a big car, and Manon is tucked right behind it right when she is peaking her sprint.
@@jweezy101491 I'd tend to agree. Even if the wind was coming from her right so not blocked by the car in the finishing straight. The circuit they use is fairly round so for at least half of the circuit she's getting good cover from the camera car.
@@jweezy101491 you’re thinking road bike advantages here. It only helps a lot for a rider on a road bike because they have worse aerodynamics than the van. In a Milan, the difference is not very big. The diesel fumes would have probably slowed her down again
Yes! Adventures of Manon and Milan: Part 1 done! I can't wait to see more! Manon and Milan: Tour Wales, Manon and Milan: 24 hour challenge, Manon and Milan: Take Over the world!!!
Great idea, Brittney. It's a radical departure from upright, so whichever presenter goes velo should do it for a few months in everything they do to get their "bent legs". I think touring for several days to the worlds HPV with some other velos would be a great feature, to show how the storage and efficiency makes the velomobile an asset. They could even cross Australia to get to the races there. It's been a while since we've seen commuting to work features (because COVID), but replacing a car with a velomobile would be an awesome GCN+ feature.
@@glennoc8585 Is it the third wheel or the chassi that makes it a car in your opinion? Would a covered-up two-wheeler or a conventional three-wheeler count as a bike?
@@nept123 in reflection I think it's just a covered in recumbent. If it had 3 wheels I guess it's a covered trike or 3 wheel recumbent. Four wheeler pedal operated is definitely a pedal car.
Manon is wasting energy on that short acceleration. Give her some more velomobile training and a straight road (the longer the better) where she can slowly accelerate and she'll go damn fast.
Yup. The trick to high speeds in a velo is getting to a high cruise speed without killing yourself first, and then punching it. With the 600 watts she is putting out I think 70 should be possible if well timed and on the right tires.
Manon is a sprinter, so short bursts of very high watts is her specialty. Still impressive that she was able to accelerate to nearly 60km/h in that short a space her first time riding a recumbent.
@@mrvwbug4423 Didn't know she's a sprinter, I thought I saw her in an endurance ride before - my bad! In that case, the bike was probably not configured well for her and you have to get used to it (your gluteus maximus needs to get used to putting power in while being a lot shorter, especially in a low position like in the Milan). I can put out more power in the recumbent than on a road bike (~300w difference)
the way bike is moving she needs to work on her smoothness, the jerking side to side is costing her speed. Probably the cranks are too long for her. That and she can't leverage her body against the tiller like she can with handlebars.
More of this please. Manon can do 60kph and more - it's a matter of getting used to power output while almost horizontal. We know she's got the power. Please make at least a Part 2!
A good effort. A friend of mine went out the other week to test his latest HPV racing trike and averaged that for the entire circuit (which isn't flat).
We race recumbents in Australia and go those speeds with no where near as many watts (ours are set up more for racing than touring though). The big things we found make power is pushing hard through your shoulders to really get the force onto the pedals and also using the required seatbelt to really lock the hips from moving. We are run steering that is rigid, which making it much easier, and can actually be used to pull on when pushing hard. Our designs have also become far more aerodynamic than that head pod style being used in the video.
@@philipcooper8297 they definitely aren't for everyone and they have their weaknesses but their strengths are undeniable. They are without a doubt the best tool for a number of cycling jobs
@@dr.science_0177 great for year round cycling in cold climates. Fantastic for people with long commutes or for touring. Just look at their performance in the Trans America race. Try one before you shoot your mouth off without looking into them even the tiniest bit.
@@dr.science_0177 consider that their are almost no cars with an upright bike seating position, and that most seats are recumbent style rather than saddle style
Yes, please do a GCN+ feature on the history and present of ICE Trikes in Cornwall. ICE are some of the highest developed trikes in the world. Then you could do some content on who rides recumbents, and trikes and WHY. There is a huge segment of aging riders who are finding trikes to be a great enabler in keeping them cycling into their 70s and beyond, even after experiencing health challenges. And then there are handcycles and the F1 of open handcycles the Carbon Bike. So much fun tech and culture to explore in the world of recumbents.
I've enjoyed seeing Manon and her recumbent all over TH-cam and social media, recumbents are so unique (dare I say wacky) and Manon is such a lovely, funny and inspirational lady (coming from a female cyclist). Just makes me smile. And seeing that this video premiered today was the cherry on top of my weekend.
Yesterday I watched The Lost Origins of the bicycle on GCN+. They said nothing major had changed for 100 years and was unlikely to again. Think you need to show them this video, looks like a change in development to me!
It’s the wrong environment. With a rider like Manon, the road bike would speed off and close to the end of the straight she would probably be closing in fast. I saw a few strong road riders on my tail today too, through a village with lots of bumps and corners. Outside the village I just focused on ~300w (for slow to normal acceleration) and they got really close.. and then my Milan started picking up serious speed. Once I’m cruising at 49 kph, there’s few road bike riders that’ll stay with me :-)
Wattage might have been nearly double, most women's track sprinters can easily break 1000w in a sprint and most men's track sprinters have a 2000w+ sprint (a lot of men's track sprinters will break normal chains if they try to put full power down on a normal road bike).
@@mrvwbug4423 Yup. Although breaking chains is due to torque, not power. I have a 1700W sprint in the velomobile, and I do break chains (and bent a spider, chainwheels, cassette). The only bike I have that I dare to put full torque into is my fixie. That 1700W figure however only comes out > 130 rpm, I can maintain >1500W until about 180 I guess.
@@Jaburu Depends where and how. On the flats, only with an extremely strong rider (let's say 400~450W FTP to keep up with my 250~270). I have experience on a TT-bike too; had a hard time with the low aero position so I was down on power a bit. That ten years younger me (>300W FTP back then) really couldn't keep up with myself in the velomobile now. But I'm fairly ideal for a velomobile: Tall and heavy (103 kg now, used to be ~115 and in top shape), I have a really powerful sprint, but not so much endurance power. So my un-aerodynamic body is covered, and the extra weight of the bike is a smaller issue for me. An endurance friend in a similar bike can't really drop me unless we have really long straights; I catch up by being quick in the corners and can basically put out a short term 1000W any time of the day, also after 250-300 km :-) If you get to hilly area, around 5-6% is where the aero benefits of the velomobile don't make up for the extra weight anymore. Whether a velonaut is still quicker in very hilly area all depends on one thing: Is he/she willing to descend at 160 km/h, or not? For me, 100-110 is enough, and a long enough 5% hill will get you there :-) If you want to see how velonauts fix that speed problem, check out this video >> th-cam.com/video/A0aOwmiMOhk/w-d-xo.html
I definitely want to try one of these and love the evil little smiley face on the front! Manon really does seem like she has the potential to break records if she wants to. Her enthusiasm is contagious!
I ride one of Bram’s amazing (unfaired) M5 recumbents. My M-Racer is by far the fastest bike I’ve ever owned. When riding alone in flatter terrain, nothing beats a recumbent for speed AND comfort.
Manon has still some potential to develop. The recumbents (mostly Milans) taking part in our club time trial from Hamburg to Berlin in Germany (about 275 km) finishing rugarly in a time of less the six hour. No road blocking or such - you do the math.
The international human powered speed association has a deal every year in Battle Mountain Nevada. The women's record is like 120 k an hour. Crazy setups that look like an egg.
@@matteodiluce9387 Thanks for recognizing this. I am that person. 60.87 mph. I would like to try for 100 km/hr if my German team can assist. Need to call Alan and Alice at IHPVA and make sure it's on for 2021. COVID cancelled 2020.
@@williamthornton5856 Congratulations again! That was awesome! I already heard of you from Jens in 2017 after you had come to Siedenburg to test the SL. Good luck hitting the 💯 kph soon!
When she said to get introduced by an expert, I really thought, John Williams from VeloAds, the owner of the Milan would finally come into the video. Short stretch of road, cold air, no specific training, not a great bikefit, bloody camera tower on the nose and not the fastest tires. Under optimal conditions I guess she might get to between 65 and 70km/h?? (Assuming she mostly stayed out of the camera car's wind shadow.)
I think you need a km or 2 to get up to maximum speed in a milan or a df. There are videos on TH-cam of riders going 88 on the level in a milan. I don't see why she shouldn't be able to reach something similar.
@@EdouardTavinor Power. You need a really high top-end power output and although she’s a strong rider I don’t think she has that (like most road bike riders don’t). I can manage extreme speeds in my Milan not because of a high FTP (which I don’t have), but I’m a sprinter. So for a few minutes I can run off a lot of riders (at the expense of being everything except dead after a good sprint)
@@EdouardTavinor It is, and it's even enough to go far past 60, if you can maintain it long enough. Take a look at the video from Sven from Velomobile Nord - he does 88 km/h in a Milan SL in similar conditions: th-cam.com/video/4IHIdGVGKdI/w-d-xo.html
👍Fantastic video, Manon! Sprinting is cool and you are really working hard. Maybe you should try the " Snoek" . A lighter weight is favorable in sprint. but one of the great advances of velomobiles ,is their low drag, which makes it very easy to maintain high speeds. when I am riding my Alpha7 ,I am only actively producing watts for 40% of the time, while enjoying the smooth ride at high speed for a long time. I suggest you taking a day tour in a light velomobile in the countryside acompanied by an experienced velomobile-rider. Bert van Brakel
Very cool vid guys! It would be interesting to see how fast Manon could go down a hill. I’ve been a triker for many years and my personal top speed (that I remembered to measure) was around 64 kph on a modest hill. That on an HP Scorpion which is by no means as aerodynamic as this Milan. If you do try it down a hill, be VERY familiar with your trike, some can be extremely sensitive to tiller input, and are super easy to roll.
My personal experience with my recumbent is that I can put out much better power at lower cadence. Normally up my upright bike I try to keep those cranks spinning so I don't come out of the seat. But with the trike you can brace against the seat and PUSH!
Yes Colin! You need that gap to see. The edge below the window is like a lip pointing up. The Milan design is quite ideal in this respect - windows fog up very rarely. Also, this Milan has a closed nose (sticker over the headlights), and although it’s only 300m I think Manon needs some oxygen too 😂
One of the records recumbent riders hold that absolutely smashes any UCI legal record is the 24 hour record.. held by a 56 year old Austrian who I think was also riding one of these... he averaged (AVERAGED!!!!) over 30MPH (50+KPH) for 24 straight hours. How many pro or Olympic quality road bike riders can do that for an hour? None can do it for 4 much less 24 hours.
I got a recumbent trike a year ago because I was having problems with vertigo and DID NOT WANT TO stop pedaling. There is enough difference in the way your muscles put out power on a recumbent that it took a couple of months to get back to the speed I was doing on my road bike. Manon, you need to get out there and practice more. If you want to see what is possible, check out a youtuber named "Palm Victory". He's one of my heroes! 60kph without a fairing!
54 KpH, In college (1970's) room-mate and I usually finished our Saturday rides (50-100 miles) with a sprint. Dead stop to the cross walk at the gym. The university had conveniently placed a speed monitor there, it flashed up your speed. If you didn't hit 30 MpH (50 kph) you bought beer for the other one for the next week. Was riding a Raleigh Super Course, weight 29 lbs (12.7 KG) aerodynamics of a brick.
@@JohnR31415 yes,also solo streamlined bikes-not trikes [under IHPVA rules-Battle Mountain USA] now reaching speeds of 92 MPH [145/150KMH ish].Motor manufacturers can learn a lot from this vis aerodynamics.For me the interest is in terms of watts put in for distance travelled-& recumbents need fewer watts than traditional mount bikes per unit of distance travelled.
That wobbly is such a difference. Sprinting on road bikes is wobbly, but on a recumbent, you need to be a bit more jumping to the front and have that balance
With a (heavy, but extremely aero) velomobile, you're supposed to slowly, steadily accelerate to 50 or 60 kph and *then* start your sprint. Remember that velomobile racers run these things at well above 50 kph *average speed*. Of course you should also put on fast tires and wait for warm weather for your top speed run.
Why don't you guys and gals get John Williams from the Velo-Ads channel to co-host a show and do some proper velomobile instruction? Learn how to ride the whole circuit properly. Then do some comparisons with different GCN riders vs him? That would make for an exciting show, good watching and some good-natured velonaut vs roadie banter! That's a Velo-Ads Milan anyway...
Manon, you would go about 10kph faster without that camera stuck on the hood of your Milan. Not only does it add drag, but it disturbs the laminar flow behind it.
I would guess that they filmed all these shows at the racetrack on one day, to make the most of having to hire the track for the day. On the recent e-bike v road bike challenge at this racecourse this recumbent was seen in the background so that video was probably done at the same time too.
I'm curious about recumbent pedal strokes - you don't get the assist of gravity on the kick but you don't have to fight it on the pull either. It must be very different.
I'd love to see Manon take a recumbent on the Velodrome. Bonus points if it's rocking a belt drive and 70/11 gearing. Actually, I really want to see how fast a _tandem_ recumbent could go on the Velodrome.
That was nice. Suggestion try the same with the alpha 7. I think she is the lightest model and just acceleration would probably be much faster. That would be a good comparison. Surely a lot of people would like to see that.👍👍👍
She'll get there soon enough. The repeated mentions of her sprinting skills does remind me of another topic only occasionally mentioned in videos is sprinting technique. Any chance of a video on how to improve bike handling and actually get the power to the tarmac when sprinting, once Manon is back on her own two wheels?
Those of us who have ridden recumbents for years know only too well that there's a significant power drop compared to riding a road bike; about 200 watts in my case. Many people have tried to figure out why this is the case, but I've seen no really convincing explanations so far. The only thing I can say for certain is that I use the quadriceps muscles to a far greater extent when riding a recumbent, while on a road bike most of the work is done by my glutes and hamstrings.
She really needs a solid mile or more to build up speed...in stages. Racing tires, no camera, close windscreen gap, and a warm day and she’ll be at 45mph
Manon, what would be a normal max sprint wattage for you? I'm curious what that reduction was for a recumbent position. 20% less, 50% less? Thx! Great video as always!
next you guys should try an australian made JT or Whipstick. Quite a bit faster than these, and in a 400m outdoor velodrome I have hit nearly 80kph. we race them here in australia
Give her about 5 miles to reach top speed. Also if you watch she is bouncing from side to side. This means she is smashing or pushing on the pedals. If you want a velomobile to scream down the road learn to spin and not smash the pedals. You want to almost point your toes forward to get this spinning down. Try this and you will not be smashing the pedals every again. The speed comes from spinning and not smashing the pedals. Great video by the way.
Can you imagine a GCN branded and styled recumbent bike that GCN just always keeps on retainer? Like old Top Gear UK with older back up vehicle creeping in the background in case something breaks down
How fast do you think Manon will go?
She could hit 70 km/h some months after this of she keep zwifting on a recumbent
I love to see manon riding a bike 🚲
@@taufikabidin412 That's a thing? I didn't know. Lmao.
Fast, but a certain veteran on a TT bike is faster.
It looks cold on the day of filming, wouldn’t the air temps have affected the aerodynamics? Colder air is much denser after all?
Perhaps Boliver Fridgewater has a mate who could enlighten us?
I am Bill Thornton, the record holder for a production Velomobile at Battle Mountain; 60.87 mph, or right at 98 km/hr. I think Manon did pretty good considering little recumbent experience, and colder weather which would negativity effect a conventional road/track bike worse than a Velomobile. (Denser air) If I were coaching her, first:
,1. Remove some cold weather clothing. You'll overheat in Velomobile; I wear cycling shorts and a short sleeve shirt down to zero C or about 32 deg F. It's nippy at first, but you warm up quickly, because your enclosed. It gets warm.
2. Her FTP type is likely a 1, I am a closer to FTP type 2.
3. It takes about two months if you have never riden a Velo coming from a triangle frame bike, to learn to maximize power output. Even after adapting, if you switch between a road bike (or track bike), and a recumbent, give yourself two weeks to readapt. Two months initially.
3. You build to top speed in stages, NOT all at once. 300 meters to do this is not the right approach. Certainly true at Battle Mountain. At Battle Mountain, guys who can generate 2,000 plus watts have FAILED because they didn't build speed in stages first, and burned themselves out.
4. You should adapt your FTP type to the task of building to top speed. Someone who is max at FTP 4, like a 1 hr time trial specialist will have a different staged approach than a sprinter will. The secret is to build speed in stages without killing yourself, and have interval sprinting abilities according to your FTP type. Kevin Sirue holds to world record 200 meter men's track at like 9.35. If he tried sprinting all at once at Battle Mountain, he wouldn't break any records of not staged correctly.
5. Again Manon did really well for never having adapted to the recumbent style of the Milan, also the steering and handling takes time to learn how to steer smoothly and simultaneously apply max wattage. Especially since air at 32 f has about 7 percent more drag than air at 85 deg. Records are not set when it's freezing ! Cold temperatures and head winds do not slow down a Milan near as much as a conventional bicycle, but there is still some speed lost. Cars with internal combustion engines actually produce more power when it's colder, humans do not. Because cars make more power when cold, their top speeds at 35 deg are about the same as at 90 deg. Humans on bikes can go faster at 90 degrees.
Excellent details Bill Thornton, and a pleasure witnessing you go 60.87 mph at Battle Mountain!
i thought no way is this 54km... yeah KP xD
killöh miles ? öh deär -.- mp ^^
Drive mäcnettez n elegdröhnz should be faster..?
@@mikemowett7401 Thanks Mike. I hurt my right knee a little bit on vacation 2 weeks ago. I am stubborn and still rode my bike anyway, but I think I need to take a week off from riding and hopefully it will get better.. I have not ridden in four days. Hate taking more time off, but I think I need too. Its a little better, but still there on the stairs in my house (maybe i should crawl up the stairs !) I want to try for 100 km/hr (62.137 mph) at Battle Mountain again if this COVID situation finally subsides world-wide. I hope it does, so the event can happen !
Thank you for your explanations. I appreciate them a lot 👍
@Abduljabar Amirbekov No. Have not. Not sure about that, or if it would fit. There is a carbon fibre wheel fairing that encircles the rim like a donut. Would have to measure.
Hank forgot to mention the most important thing: Always smile on a recumbent bike.
To wring humiliation out of failure?
Lol, I remember that video, it was great.
@@chalocolina3554 boo
Smiles per mile with my velomobile, especially when there is a cold rain, 50 mph plus winds, storms and even light snow. The normal cyclists are inside on trainers while I am enjoying the outside. Some of the most beautiful views have been when I would not pedal a road bike and all the cars could not see the awe inspiring majesty of the storm directly over their heads. I was a tad chilly on my face and chest but the experience was worth it. I didn't buy a velomobile for speed. I bought a velomobile so I could pedal through anything except snow beyond ankle deep.
Always smile on any bike, full stop!
Poor old Manon - goal of hitting 60Km/hr done in by the numpty that insisted on mounting a GoPro as an airbrake ontop of the recumbent....
Are we not offsetting that with the fact the camera car gave her some draft in that final run?
@@kevkeates She might have gotten behind the car just after the sprint, when they came into the next corner.
@@hoekie3652 it's a circuit so at some point in the lap it would be giving a benefit. How much would alter the whole way around and it'd never be a disadvantage so...🤔
Then they don't even bother to use those shots in the clip anyways...
@@kevkeates Draft doesn’t even help that much. On a road bike, sure, but in a Milan.. maybe a 2 km/h advantage.
Nice result, hitting that speed on such a short run is impressive. These bikes only really come into their own on longer stretches.
@Easy cycling Agreed
I love this video, Manon flying in my Milan SL. A little more practice in the beast and she would go a lot quicker,
The invite is still open Manon for you to represent team Velo Ads at the worlds this summer.
Supercool idea John! And go for it Manon! 😁
Its in netherlands roght?
@@taufikabidin412 it is in the Netherlands this year, and next year Italy 🇮🇹.
@@velo-ads4206 Cool, will be stopping by with one of the Dutch Milans then! (GT)
Great idea John!
Hard acceleration all the way will not get you to your personal top speed in a velomobile. Because of their lack of aerodynamic drag, they'll teach you the meaning of E = 1/2 * m * v² very quickly. It takes its time to pump a velomobile full of all that kinetic energy. Go easy until 60 kph (which in a properly set up Milan SL on a warm day with race tyres on a level and good road will take only about 200W), then a little harder until 70 kph (~280W) and then all out. With proper gearing, 600W should then get you close to 90 kph. But you need a lot of road to do this.
While acceleration is hard, velomobiles are insanely good at keeping speed. I have no video of a Milan SL on a level surface at hand but here's me on a 20 km long stretch of road that has an almost constant downhill gradient of about 1%. That resulted in an average(!) speed of over 77 kph: th-cam.com/video/a7Ps6tOR4aA/w-d-xo.html
Wow, very impressive! So who's going to do that on a TT bike? LOL
Ha just watched this! Looks fun but pretty scary
@Alan Uren The Milan is actually very stable at those speeds (dare I say "disappointingly unspectacular"?). When it's not it's usually the driver's fault. Look at the Milan swaying from side to side around minute one when I'm approaching 100 kph. That's me getting uncoordinated beyond 120 rpm, not the Milan generating lift or anything. I even stopped pedaling, concentrated and started again (didn't help much as you can see). I wasn't close to losing control but you've got to respect those speeds.
You could even do this in harsh crosswinds (bft 7+) because the Milan's aerodynamics are made for that, too. Center of gravity and center of pressure are very close together and there is a controlled stall effect (for crosswinds). Furthermore, crosswinds (from about 20° on, which I would still count as headwind) do propel you forward because of a sail effect, sometimes even noticeably.
I think the mounted camera also added a lot of drag at that speed. I wonder if they've also tried without this...
I think it's fair to call it 60, given the extra drag of the GoPro sitting on the front! Nice riding!
Got to love the additional bulf body for no good reason lol
To be fair probably evens out the benefits in parts of the circuit of having a camera car there so in the end the filming would be neutral... Maybe, ish, sort of... 🤔 Let's face it they have to film these things somehow so. It's always bothered me with their "science" runs. Even when trying to see the benefits of Aero stuff they often have a camera vehicle in front of them but again it's a TH-cam channel so got to get footage somehow.
The larger effect was the filming car towing her to the line. Its in the shot a few times, its a big car, and Manon is tucked right behind it right when she is peaking her sprint.
@@jweezy101491 I'd tend to agree. Even if the wind was coming from her right so not blocked by the car in the finishing straight. The circuit they use is fairly round so for at least half of the circuit she's getting good cover from the camera car.
@@jweezy101491 you’re thinking road bike advantages here. It only helps a lot for a rider on a road bike because they have worse aerodynamics than the van. In a Milan, the difference is not very big. The diesel fumes would have probably slowed her down again
Thanks for the recent coverage of recumbents and velomobiles. They may not be mainstream, but they’re loads of fun for a number of uses.
Agreed thank you so much GCN!!!
Yes! Adventures of Manon and Milan: Part 1 done! I can't wait to see more! Manon and Milan: Tour Wales, Manon and Milan: 24 hour challenge, Manon and Milan: Take Over the world!!!
Great idea, Brittney. It's a radical departure from upright, so whichever presenter goes velo should do it for a few months in everything they do to get their "bent legs". I think touring for several days to the worlds HPV with some other velos would be a great feature, to show how the storage and efficiency makes the velomobile an asset. They could even cross Australia to get to the races there. It's been a while since we've seen commuting to work features (because COVID), but replacing a car with a velomobile would be an awesome GCN+ feature.
Recumbents again! Great!
So the question I've got is how fast does Manon go on a road bike? Still. nearly 60 in a non-familiar bike is pretty damn good.
Not a bike though it's a pedal car.
34mph. That's nothing to shout about.
@@glennoc8585 Is it the third wheel or the chassi that makes it a car in your opinion? Would a covered-up two-wheeler or a conventional three-wheeler count as a bike?
@@nept123 in reflection I think it's just a covered in recumbent. If it had 3 wheels I guess it's a covered trike or 3 wheel recumbent. Four wheeler pedal operated is definitely a pedal car.
That crashing scene while screaming sniling from Hank is legendary
Manon is wasting energy on that short acceleration. Give her some more velomobile training and a straight road (the longer the better) where she can slowly accelerate and she'll go damn fast.
Yes, you Need longer distance
Yup. The trick to high speeds in a velo is getting to a high cruise speed without killing yourself first, and then punching it. With the 600 watts she is putting out I think 70 should be possible if well timed and on the right tires.
Manon is a sprinter, so short bursts of very high watts is her specialty. Still impressive that she was able to accelerate to nearly 60km/h in that short a space her first time riding a recumbent.
@@mrvwbug4423 Didn't know she's a sprinter, I thought I saw her in an endurance ride before - my bad! In that case, the bike was probably not configured well for her and you have to get used to it (your gluteus maximus needs to get used to putting power in while being a lot shorter, especially in a low position like in the Milan).
I can put out more power in the recumbent than on a road bike (~300w difference)
the way bike is moving she needs to work on her smoothness, the jerking side to side is costing her speed. Probably the cranks are too long for her. That and she can't leverage her body against the tiller like she can with handlebars.
Manon riding a shoe had been the highlight of my year so far
More of this please. Manon can do 60kph and more - it's a matter of getting used to power output while almost horizontal. We know she's got the power. Please make at least a Part 2!
yes more recumbent content!
A good effort. A friend of mine went out the other week to test his latest HPV racing trike and averaged that for the entire circuit (which isn't flat).
My wife and truly enjoyed your commentary. Looks like a great fun.. you rock
We race recumbents in Australia and go those speeds with no where near as many watts (ours are set up more for racing than touring though). The big things we found make power is pushing hard through your shoulders to really get the force onto the pedals and also using the required seatbelt to really lock the hips from moving.
We are run steering that is rigid, which making it much easier, and can actually be used to pull on when pushing hard.
Our designs have also become far more aerodynamic than that head pod style being used in the video.
Recumbent, perhaps one of the more underrated modes of cycling.
Very expensive and ''cumbersome'' mode of cycling.
@@philipcooper8297 they definitely aren't for everyone and they have their weaknesses but their strengths are undeniable. They are without a doubt the best tool for a number of cycling jobs
It's very niche, expensive and unnecessary.
@@dr.science_0177 great for year round cycling in cold climates. Fantastic for people with long commutes or for touring. Just look at their performance in the Trans America race. Try one before you shoot your mouth off without looking into them even the tiniest bit.
@@dr.science_0177 consider that their are almost no cars with an upright bike seating position, and that most seats are recumbent style rather than saddle style
GCN more recumbent content please 😁
Yes, please do a GCN+ feature on the history and present of ICE Trikes in Cornwall. ICE are some of the highest developed trikes in the world. Then you could do some content on who rides recumbents, and trikes and WHY. There is a huge segment of aging riders who are finding trikes to be a great enabler in keeping them cycling into their 70s and beyond, even after experiencing health challenges. And then there are handcycles and the F1 of open handcycles the Carbon Bike. So much fun tech and culture to explore in the world of recumbents.
@@karlaldinger3017 A feature on Peter Ross developer of the Trice would not go amiss too.
Thank you GCN for this series covering Velomobiles. I made point of not hitting "skip ads" just in case it throws a little more money your way.
Hey Manon! You was lucky to get Hank as your expert! The thought of Ollie as an expert on speed... 🤣🤣🤣
Way to go Manon, I appreciate the recumbent content. I have several bikes but when I want speed and comfort the recumbent is my pick.
I've enjoyed seeing Manon and her recumbent all over TH-cam and social media, recumbents are so unique (dare I say wacky) and Manon is such a lovely, funny and inspirational lady (coming from a female cyclist). Just makes me smile.
And seeing that this video premiered today was the cherry on top of my weekend.
How can one not enjoy a video with Manon 🥰
Not gonna lie, those shouts of "COME ON!!!" sent tingles down my spine. Way to push it, Manon!
I was kinda hoping for the return of that 'SMILE!!!!' guy
Manon would've been faster if he was the coach. Not hitting on Hank but he should've at least passed on the magic words to Manon.
@@Eis_ I know right, I bet smiling would have given her at least 5 kph extra
Manon you rock....
You are lovely.
Cheers from NYC
Yesterday I watched The Lost Origins of the bicycle on GCN+. They said nothing major had changed for 100 years and was unlikely to again. Think you need to show them this video, looks like a change in development to me!
Would have been interesting to have compared to Manon on a road bike at the same power, and at max power too.
It’s the wrong environment. With a rider like Manon, the road bike would speed off and close to the end of the straight she would probably be closing in fast.
I saw a few strong road riders on my tail today too, through a village with lots of bumps and corners. Outside the village I just focused on ~300w (for slow to normal acceleration) and they got really close.. and then my Milan started picking up serious speed. Once I’m cruising at 49 kph, there’s few road bike riders that’ll stay with me :-)
Wattage might have been nearly double, most women's track sprinters can easily break 1000w in a sprint and most men's track sprinters have a 2000w+ sprint (a lot of men's track sprinters will break normal chains if they try to put full power down on a normal road bike).
@@mrvwbug4423 Yup. Although breaking chains is due to torque, not power. I have a 1700W sprint in the velomobile, and I do break chains (and bent a spider, chainwheels, cassette). The only bike I have that I dare to put full torque into is my fixie. That 1700W figure however only comes out > 130 rpm, I can maintain >1500W until about 180 I guess.
@@4nz-nl what about tt bikes? can they stay with you?
@@Jaburu Depends where and how. On the flats, only with an extremely strong rider (let's say 400~450W FTP to keep up with my 250~270).
I have experience on a TT-bike too; had a hard time with the low aero position so I was down on power a bit. That ten years younger me (>300W FTP back then) really couldn't keep up with myself in the velomobile now.
But I'm fairly ideal for a velomobile: Tall and heavy (103 kg now, used to be ~115 and in top shape), I have a really powerful sprint, but not so much endurance power. So my un-aerodynamic body is covered, and the extra weight of the bike is a smaller issue for me. An endurance friend in a similar bike can't really drop me unless we have really long straights; I catch up by being quick in the corners and can basically put out a short term 1000W any time of the day, also after 250-300 km :-)
If you get to hilly area, around 5-6% is where the aero benefits of the velomobile don't make up for the extra weight anymore. Whether a velonaut is still quicker in very hilly area all depends on one thing: Is he/she willing to descend at 160 km/h, or not? For me, 100-110 is enough, and a long enough 5% hill will get you there :-)
If you want to see how velonauts fix that speed problem, check out this video >> th-cam.com/video/A0aOwmiMOhk/w-d-xo.html
Love Manon - great vid GCN! Best channel
Next vid is Connor trying to get into a recumbent.
Ha ha!
I rode one for a few months last year and I'm 193cm tall. Had to buy a new, longer the chain because we did extend the bike to it's max length...
Just would like to add that I seen one of the racing recumbents on Sunday during our group ride. They are here in Southern Arizona.
I definitely want to try one of these and love the evil little smiley face on the front! Manon really does seem like she has the potential to break records if she wants to. Her enthusiasm is contagious!
Send Manon to Battle Mountain Nevada for the HPV speed competition.
This comment. Yes!
I'm convinced this is manons new favourite toy and looks for any excuse to get in
yes I was thinking that too
It should be :-)
If you drafted the filming crew’s van a little bit closer, you would have hit the 60km/h 😜
You did well. Feels awesome fast at lower down too. Good to do it on a track. You might go faster with your cleats further back.
True, that's one point I noticed when I started pedaling on recumbents. 👍🏻
We need Bram Moens and Mike Burrows riding their recumbent here to compare
Exactly. Please with watt meters.
I ride one of Bram’s amazing (unfaired) M5 recumbents. My M-Racer is by far the fastest bike I’ve ever owned. When riding alone in flatter terrain, nothing beats a recumbent for speed AND comfort.
An amazing idea!
Manon has a really likeable personality
I love it, bravo Manon, I always wanted to try one
Manon has still some potential to develop. The recumbents (mostly Milans) taking part in our club time trial from Hamburg to Berlin in Germany (about 275 km) finishing rugarly in a time of less the six hour. No road blocking or such - you do the math.
I wish we could attract Manon to come over to the west of Germany for some real road velomobile riding over varied terrain
The international human powered speed association has a deal every year in Battle Mountain Nevada. The women's record is like 120 k an hour. Crazy setups that look like an egg.
The women's record is on 2 wheels. The three wheel record is 115.3 by Trisled in Completely Overzealous.
A Milan SL went more than 98 kph at Battle Mountain. It's the world record for a human powered production vehicle.
@@matteodiluce9387 Thanks for recognizing this. I am that person. 60.87 mph. I would like to try for 100 km/hr if my German team can assist. Need to call Alan and Alice at IHPVA and make sure it's on for 2021. COVID cancelled 2020.
@@williamthornton5856 Congratulations again! That was awesome! I already heard of you from Jens in 2017 after you had come to Siedenburg to test the SL.
Good luck hitting the 💯 kph soon!
Looks like the most fun you can have lying down other than sleeping!
I can think of at least one more thing.
When you hit puberty another one will occur to you!
@@DCuzick thanks for this idea: I have never tried that in my recumbent
When she said to get introduced by an expert, I really thought, John Williams from VeloAds, the owner of the Milan would finally come into the video.
Short stretch of road, cold air, no specific training, not a great bikefit, bloody camera tower on the nose and not the fastest tires. Under optimal conditions I guess she might get to between 65 and 70km/h?? (Assuming she mostly stayed out of the camera car's wind shadow.)
I think you need a km or 2 to get up to maximum speed in a milan or a df. There are videos on TH-cam of riders going 88 on the level in a milan. I don't see why she shouldn't be able to reach something similar.
@@EdouardTavinor Power. You need a really high top-end power output and although she’s a strong rider I don’t think she has that (like most road bike riders don’t). I can manage extreme speeds in my Milan not because of a high FTP (which I don’t have), but I’m a sprinter. So for a few minutes I can run off a lot of riders (at the expense of being everything except dead after a good sprint)
I also thought that John Williams was the expert 🤣
@@4nz-nl She said she could get up to 600W. that should be enough for much more than 60 in a milan, i'd have thought.
@@EdouardTavinor It is, and it's even enough to go far past 60, if you can maintain it long enough.
Take a look at the video from Sven from Velomobile Nord - he does 88 km/h in a Milan SL in similar conditions: th-cam.com/video/4IHIdGVGKdI/w-d-xo.html
Marginal Gains!! That terrible GoPro camera position robbed Manon of the 0.46kmph to hit 60.
👍Fantastic video, Manon! Sprinting is cool and you are really working hard. Maybe you should try the " Snoek" . A lighter weight is favorable in sprint. but one of the great advances of velomobiles ,is their low drag, which makes it very easy to maintain high speeds. when I am riding my Alpha7 ,I am only actively producing watts for 40% of the time, while enjoying the smooth ride at high speed for a long time. I suggest you taking a day tour in a light velomobile in the countryside acompanied by an experienced velomobile-rider. Bert van Brakel
I like to see Manon race against Neil Hood, both in a milan on this circuit
Well that would be an actual known fast velo pilot, so yeah, it would be worth exposing that sort of speed to a wider audience.
Very cool vid guys! It would be interesting to see how fast Manon could go down a hill. I’ve been a triker for many years and my personal top speed (that I remembered to measure) was around 64 kph on a modest hill. That on an HP Scorpion which is by no means as aerodynamic as this Milan. If you do try it down a hill, be VERY familiar with your trike, some can be extremely sensitive to tiller input, and are super easy to roll.
My personal experience with my recumbent is that I can put out much better power at lower cadence. Normally up my upright bike I try to keep those cranks spinning so I don't come out of the seat. But with the trike you can brace against the seat and PUSH!
The gap in the windscreen cost 1km/h
No gap in the windscreen = steamy windows.
Yes Colin! You need that gap to see. The edge below the window is like a lip pointing up. The Milan design is quite ideal in this respect - windows fog up very rarely.
Also, this Milan has a closed nose (sticker over the headlights), and although it’s only 300m I think Manon needs some oxygen too 😂
please more Recumbent content
were these filmed out of order? feel like this should have been the first in the series.
I'm glad I'm not the only one to think that 😄
One of the records recumbent riders hold that absolutely smashes any UCI legal record is the 24 hour record.. held by a 56 year old Austrian who I think was also riding one of these... he averaged (AVERAGED!!!!) over 30MPH (50+KPH) for 24 straight hours. How many pro or Olympic quality road bike riders can do that for an hour? None can do it for 4 much less 24 hours.
I was a bit surprised about the amount of clothes you're wearing. I never have more than a t-shirt and a windbreaker. Especially with the roof on
I started like this too. It’s a matter of experience 😄
And more and more I‘d like to try the Milan for myself 😅
Super performance 👍
"I feel the need. The need...
...for SPEED! Come on!!" -2021, Manon ;)
I got a recumbent trike a year ago because I was having problems with vertigo and DID NOT WANT TO stop pedaling. There is enough difference in the way your muscles put out power on a recumbent that it took a couple of months to get back to the speed I was doing on my road bike. Manon, you need to get out there and practice more. If you want to see what is possible, check out a youtuber named "Palm Victory". He's one of my heroes! 60kph without a fairing!
54 KpH, In college (1970's) room-mate and I usually finished our Saturday rides (50-100 miles) with a sprint. Dead stop to the cross walk at the gym. The university had conveniently placed a speed monitor there, it flashed up your speed. If you didn't hit 30 MpH (50 kph) you bought beer for the other one for the next week. Was riding a Raleigh Super Course, weight 29 lbs (12.7 KG) aerodynamics of a brick.
I was pretty disappointed it's not the Velo-ads guy that came in as "the expert"
I was rather hoping for someone John would consider an expert - The one and only Mike Burrows.
@@JohnR31415 yes,also solo streamlined bikes-not trikes [under IHPVA rules-Battle Mountain USA] now reaching speeds of 92 MPH [145/150KMH ish].Motor manufacturers can learn a lot from this vis aerodynamics.For me the interest is in terms of watts put in for distance travelled-& recumbents need fewer watts than traditional mount bikes per unit of distance travelled.
37 mph is insane speed on the flat. Great job, Manon!
That is a taster of what a newbie to recumbents can do. 1 hour record is 91 KPH and top speed 144.
@@JanneRasanen2 that is without going slightly downhill?
@@rogerrabbit7469 The downhill is 0.6 % max IIRC But mostly flat at Battle mountain NV USA
Whatever Manon says I just listened, my favourite GCN presenter.
Yayy well done, You are my heronie Manon ♥️💛♥️💛♥️
As a recumbent rider, I'm intrigued by this.
That wobbly is such a difference. Sprinting on road bikes is wobbly, but on a recumbent, you need to be a bit more jumping to the front and have that balance
I can tell you, you should not watch this video, when your parents can hear manons noises..
With a (heavy, but extremely aero) velomobile, you're supposed to slowly, steadily accelerate to 50 or 60 kph and *then* start your sprint. Remember that velomobile racers run these things at well above 50 kph *average speed*.
Of course you should also put on fast tires and wait for warm weather for your top speed run.
This is so much fun to watch.
Why don't you guys and gals get John Williams from the Velo-Ads channel to co-host a show and do some proper velomobile instruction? Learn how to ride the whole circuit properly. Then do some comparisons with different GCN riders vs him? That would make for an exciting show, good watching and some good-natured velonaut vs roadie banter! That's a Velo-Ads Milan anyway...
Manon, you would go about 10kph faster without that camera stuck on the hood of your Milan. Not only does it add drag, but it disturbs the laminar flow behind it.
Manon is always worth watching and this...could not be saved
This must be a prequel
She literally says that in the video...
I would guess that they filmed all these shows at the racetrack on one day, to make the most of having to hire the track for the day. On the recent e-bike v road bike challenge at this racecourse this recumbent was seen in the background so that video was probably done at the same time too.
I'm curious about recumbent pedal strokes - you don't get the assist of gravity on the kick but you don't have to fight it on the pull either. It must be very different.
I love that it has a face😍
It's so sleek, makes me think of my dad's glider (well without the wings and tail)! I feel like my abs would take ages to recover riding this.
I'd love to see Manon take a recumbent on the Velodrome. Bonus points if it's rocking a belt drive and 70/11 gearing.
Actually, I really want to see how fast a _tandem_ recumbent could go on the Velodrome.
Ollie Bridgewood would tell you there 7 watts lost by that unsightly GoPro on the top!
That was nice. Suggestion try the same with the alpha 7. I think she is the lightest model and just acceleration would probably be much faster. That would be a good comparison. Surely a lot of people would like to see that.👍👍👍
Great job either way!
She'll get there soon enough.
The repeated mentions of her sprinting skills does remind me of another topic only occasionally mentioned in videos is sprinting technique. Any chance of a video on how to improve bike handling and actually get the power to the tarmac when sprinting, once Manon is back on her own two wheels?
Those of us who have ridden recumbents for years know only too well that there's a significant power drop compared to riding a road bike; about 200 watts in my case. Many people have tried to figure out why this is the case, but I've seen no really convincing explanations so far. The only thing I can say for certain is that I use the quadriceps muscles to a far greater extent when riding a recumbent, while on a road bike most of the work is done by my glutes and hamstrings.
And to think that the world speed record is 139.45 Km/h (off course is a completely different bike), but very well done Manon.
Super-streamlined Milan SL... with a big boxy camera mounted up in the airflow...
If nothing else, I think this shows how serious a competitor she is.
Bet you would have hit 60 without that super aero GoPro strapped to the front 🤙🏼
That's what I was thinking.
She really needs a solid mile or more to build up speed...in stages. Racing tires, no camera, close windscreen gap, and a warm day and she’ll be at 45mph
I agree with you. Aerodynamics in velomobiles is so extreme that any little disturbance makes a huge difference.
Manon the cannon
Manon, what would be a normal max sprint wattage for you? I'm curious what that reduction was for a recumbent position. 20% less, 50% less? Thx! Great video as always!
When "Global Recumbent Cycling Network"(GRCN sounds nice)
next you guys should try an australian made JT or Whipstick. Quite a bit faster than these, and in a 400m outdoor velodrome I have hit nearly 80kph. we race them here in australia
It would be interesting to see a comparison with Manon on a road bike
6:00 reminds me of clarkson xD
Give her about 5 miles to reach top speed. Also if you watch she is bouncing from side to side. This means she is smashing or pushing on the pedals. If you want a velomobile to scream down the road learn to spin and not smash the pedals. You want to almost point your toes forward to get this spinning down. Try this and you will not be smashing the pedals every again. The speed comes from spinning and not smashing the pedals. Great video by the way.
Can you imagine a GCN branded and styled recumbent bike that GCN just always keeps on retainer? Like old Top Gear UK with older back up vehicle creeping in the background in case something breaks down
What an excellent idea. Get Etoe to paint it and WHAMMO! Content for ages.
Good job Manon!
sounds like Simon needs to be worried, waiting for that rematch
I love my Strada DF :)