*REAL VERSION* Aikido Kotegaeshi in MMA • Martial Arts Journey
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- After training MMA intensively for 3 months I've finally found an Aikido technique which works in MMA and now is used even by my coaches. This Aikido technique is called Aikido Koteageshi and in MMA I use it when my sparring partner throws a one two.
Do you have Aikido techniques that work in MMA? Did you pull this Aikido technique in MMA sparring yourself? Let me know in the comments.
Check coach Eddie Ziegler's TH-cam Channel ForRealFightMoves: / @forrealfightmoves
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Check the video which started it all:
► • Aikido vs MMA - REAL ...
WATCH THE VIDEO FIRST BEFORE READING THIS COMMENT BELLOW:
Helo everyone. As some of you know, this video was actually an experiment. We have done the same with a BJJ technique, which can be seen here: th-cam.com/video/lh2Qq7Bpoqk/w-d-xo.html
The purpose of these videos were to tests the ability to use critical thinking while analyzing an introduced martial arts technique in a youtube video, which would be promoted as effective by authority (youtuber, BJJ black belt, MMA coach). While the BJJ community did a great job at perceiving the presented technique, which would actually not work, unfortunately most of the Aikido community did not request more proof of the technique under live circumstances. For those who do not understand: this technique was performed with a cooperative partner (coach Eddie Ziegler) who threw a jab and cross and then either allowed me to grab his hand, or waited for me to catch it and apply a technique. We did not show the same technique in live sparring where he could apply any resistance and means to not allow me to perform the technique, thus the published video was no proof of an effective technique. Furthermore this technique in general is highly unlikely to succeed in an MMA setting, since it's nearly impossible to catch a strike mid-air and after you do catch it, most likely the attacker will continue to attack or base out.
That being said, unfortunately most people believed the technique is effective just because it was stated by perceived authority and did not ask for more proof or did not consider under what circumstances it was presented. There were some people that addressed this type of critical thinking, but that was the minority.
If you want to see more videos where coach Eddie Ziegler tests people's critical thinking, check his TH-cam channel ForRealFightMoves here: th-cam.com/channels/i0eD6jKRxeTcVkBEFw7yxg.html
Well, i feel disapointed xD the reason i took it as real was because he said they had started doing it xD i took the authority of an mma gym that i thought wants the best for THEIR students... :(
Well, i hope you find something that works some day xD i still have hope
yo rokas dude love you and the video was quite interesting but can we see it in sparring? its not to be sarcastic i even think it would work, but that might be my mma bias talking so the most unbiased way to look at it is watch it in live resistence.
Bravo! Good Sir! I thought you caught it because of the repetition. I've never caught a wrist in sparing, but I know it's not something I look for either. Though I still believe the more you spare the slower things become. I've actually had someone catch my wrist, though I just circled out. Tony and Israel have both caught wrists in live fights and both threw elbows. Other than that, I've seen many people hit different things from other martial arts like the Uchi Mata, or wheel kick, or even a front snap kick and make them work in a pressure test scenario or fights. 15 years ago a lot of people believed none of that works, they thought on BJJ and Muay Thia was the answer. But now they train to a sort of mix things, so on that note, I would say be creative.
I commented below, but just one suggestion: If you want people to gain critical thinking, maybe a series where you present moves and claim that they are effective and later explain why or why not this technique works. And people have to guess in the comments whether or not it is real.
Its true. Why not try a different technique? Irimi nage?
I took your trainers word for it. I've only trained boxing, and in my bias, I thought there's no way you could catch my wrist. But when I thought critically about that, I considered that I knew nothing about grappling, and this guy's a BJJ black-belt, and you've been grabbing wrists for a decade. The problem with intuition, is that it's often wrong, so did the only thing that made logic sense, and took the word of an expert over my own ignorant bias. So yeah, you got me. Not sure what that proves though.
that proves the truth is elusive xd
you're right, you can't "catch the fist or wrist" and that's not what a good aikido school teaches... this guy is confused about aikido... aikido is mostly about footwork and positioning... move to the side and parry the arm if needed... it's not about the arm or fist, once you are too the side, then you are safe and out of reach, if the arm is still sticking out then you/nage (the aikido guy who does the technique) can do the "kotegeshi"/rear wrist throw, if the arm is pulled back then the momentum of the attacker (uke) is going back and the correct aikido technique is to do a kokyuho (basically an elbow strike to the temple or face or forehead), if the attacker doesn't block the elbow strike and it connects then the attacker (uke is hurt or killed and the rest of the encounter is easier)... if the uke (attacker) blocks the elbow strike then the attacker is in perfect position for a low kick and ikkyo or nikkyo... aikido is not a static martial art... it's a moving art that requires striking (atemi)... the founder who people call O-Sensei clearly stated that aikido is 90% striking (atemi.) the guy in this video is oversimplifying and always forgets the atemi, probably because most schools never teach the atemi because O-Sensei never focused on it in the later years... so most aikido students only learned 10% of aikido (since the striking aspect is 90% of aikido)... aikido has over 10,000 nameable techniques and freestyle techniques can be made up on the fly... so aikido has an answer to every position or situation... but of course it's unlikely to ever "catch" the attackers write or fist and the good aikido schools don't teach this, they teach to throw the other person's "center" or entire body... most people only ever learned aikido to a low level, even black belts, because in those days a real martial arts master only showed his art to 1 student and taught the rest of them a watered down version... and a real martial arts master never gave up his most valued techniques in fear of being killed with them... so much was lost and never taught and needs to be discovered by each individual student... this is different than judo and bjj where everything is taught and coached... aikido is taught on a completely different basis from the old days, where the teacher just shows the move and the student has to get what he can without extensive coaching... this is how Takeda taught O-Sensei and how O-Sensei taught everyone else, so all the 2nd generation and onward aikido "masters" only learned what they were able to see.
this explains some of what I'm saying th-cam.com/video/hF35Eg9OPgM/w-d-xo.html
I took up some aikido after a foundation in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and kickboxing. Kotegeshi and Ikkyo were the two techniques I found could be used pretty well to complement striking. The standing pins and control techniques are awesome. Honestly, I think aikido is really underrated. If you already know how to fight, aikido can work.
This is what my older brother says. He's a hardcore fighting mofo with military background but has studied Aikido.
My history too!! I have prectice KArate n some wrestling, and Aikido has been a great complement to me
You there was stuff before mma
In before a "*REAL REAL VERSION* Aikido Kotegaeshi in MMA • Martial Arts Journey" for the next video to tell everyone that it actually really works and this video here is actually another experiment to confuse the shit outta them 🤣
Hahaha it's like aikido inception
When do we get the real real real version...
I didn't read the comments of the last video but I've a feeling people are going to be triggered.
The BJJ community liked the experiment a lot and those who were tricked were grateful. Let's see how this works
@@MartialArtsJourney having practiced BJJ for around a year i was "got" by the BJJ video and once i was told why it was "obvious" however i would take issue with one aspect of the BJJ video which was "be wary / there is no such thing as 'advanced' techniques" - clearly in BJJ there are fundamentals and then advanced techniques like Berimbolo / Iminari entries. As a matter of fact i recently failed in training executing a technique that looks very much like it wouldn't work (vulnerable to armbar/triangle) if you didn't include one particular detail (the detail i forgot when i tried it) ..... this technique was taught from a position of great authority (dirty dozen member) which in this context is interesting.
So far, I haven't seen any "triggered" comments though. I do agree with the ones saying this is taking it a bit far though - you'll never learn anything, if you never trust any information from anyone, even someone who you think is genuine, has built up trust with you, and is supported by an authority. Is this a nice reminder that "everyone can lie"? Sure. But it's also a "fuck you" to people who just trust Rokas, because of the content he puts out.
Imagine if you went to University, but every single thing you read in a book, or your teacher taught you, you wouldn't believe until you literally checked it out yourself. Education would end in a standstill, the science practically wouldn't further itself at all. At some point, you really do have to just believe that the people that teach you, are trustworthy in what they teach you.
I totally get what Rokas is trying to do here, and it's a fun little experiment. But I also don't really see this going any other way, than this, every time, for pretty much every martial art. Even on the BJJ video, I saw a bunch of people who thought it looked good enough to try and use in sparring - and that's people who actively pressure test the stuff.
So again, I get the *point* of the videos, but I don't really think they teach much, or prove much - again, apart from saying "even people you trust can lie to you". Which is probably also why I don't see any comments (so far at least) of "triggered Aikidoka".
But Rokas, next time you do it, don't make the videos so short - we all know that if you actually managed to pull an Aikido technique off, you'd practically make a documentary out of it at this point ;)
@@PhilipZeplinDK I don't see it as a "fuck you" whatsoever. I see it as a pressure test of his audience. Some passed, some failed, like you'd expect from any good test. If Rokas only put out the fake vids, with no follow up explanation, then sure, that would be uncool. I think the point you missed is to think critically about anything you're told. This is a good thing. This is how the world progresses. If some people took Rokas' advice, went out and pressure tested it that day and failed, good.
I'm speaking as a former amateur boxer. There is no way you can grab my arm middle air BUT having a trained eye I was able to easily grab telephoned punches from untrained people, at least it happened once in a fight in a disco I happened to be.
You are not testing anyone critical thinking, what you are doing is making people distrust you, im a Karate black belt, i know ome thing or two about punching, i have practiced with Aikido people in the past and they are never able to grab anyone fist in the air, in fact, i even let my fist still to see what they would do and they had a lot lf trouble trying to bend my wrist while i was making a tsuki, this was done in good fate and we also noticed flaws in Karate i might add. So i know you Aikido people cant do it, but when i see an Aikido expert and an MMA telling me it can be done the first thing i thought was "Maybe he is a better Akidoka than the ones i practiced with" or "Maybe if someone doesnt have strong wrist or is tired it can be done" and know you ate basically moking me for trusting in the words of two experts in fields wich i am not, and im going to guess that most people in your audience are not experts in both Aikido and MMA, in fact, as far as i know you could make a next video telling that this one was a test of critical thinking and that the technique really works. You are not my sensei, its not your job to put to test my skills, you should share your knowledge in an honest way, this feels like mockery for trusting you, dont worry, it wont happen again.
Lol u mad bro?
Me pasa lo mismo, también vi con mis ojos que no pueden agarrar ni mis puños de tkd pero si piensas un poco solo muestran una técnica que a pesar de ser con fuerza no es en situación de sparring, eso debió haber levantado sospecha pero si, el haber conocido a aikidokas que no pueden y de repente ver a dos expertos que si me hizo dudar cómo a vos
Si fuera algo con lo que no tuviera experiencia como ser eh...ninjutsu hubiera sospechado desde el principio por la falta de más ejemplos y sparring pero acá justamente la experiencia me jugó en contra
Yea that seem hard to do with a resistant opponent. I don't think I could do that or they can catch my wrist while I'm throwing a straight jab at full speed or force trying to take ur head off...Maybe If I throw maybe a very slow predictable punch drill type.
Your open-mindedness is genuinely inspirational. Keep it up.
I can see what you were trying to do, but I'm not sure if it's a true expirement in critical thinking. Learning is about as much being open to expert advice, and trusting that it comes from their credentials, experience, and expertise. Being resistant and skeptical for reasons that any advice could be bad is being just being a bad student and inefficient because the advice is more likely to be good than bad. Where critical thinking part would be when the advice fails to meet results. Then someone has to analyze whether it's because they 'have been doing it wrong' or whether it is simply bad advice.
When you say you have sparred with it and it works with actively resisting opponents, and other credentialed martial arts experts are also endorsing it, we have no reason to believe that you are actively lying to us, so we should have good reason to go out and try it ourselves.
I don't want to dismiss the point you guys were trying to make, but the issue of learning is more complex than total acceptance or total skepticism. I say the dichotomy you imitate from the best people in the field because it's probably why they are successful, at the same time you shouldn't be afraid to abandon things when it's not working with insufficient explination as to why.
I think the point of the video was to show that a demo you see online might not be real even if a muscular dude with credentials is telling you that it is.
TH-cam is a free video sharing platform not a training center, some skepticism is always advisable.
@@driver3899 That's an understatement if I ever saw one. :D Bucket of salt and mat time. Sometimes even otherwise good folks show mediocre to crummy technique, which then can usually be fixed.
@@driver3899 Even at training center, how do you know the technique your coach is showing is real and not fake?
@@bubblewhip382 watch when the technique is done by others in sparing, does it work often yes
o? When you eventually get to spar try using it (get someone to film you if you can, even on a cell phone) and see for yourself how it does against someone who doesn't want you to do it to them. Ask experienced people about it, get the general consensus. If you are totally new to to training then go to more than one place (as many as you can ideally) so you can compare them to each other, you will soon spot someone that's teaching from experience vs someone full of BS
So you wouldn't believe your coach if they came to the class with a new technique claiming it was done in sparring, unless he pulled it off in live sparring in that particular situation because the coach might be lying? Or would you just just take his word because he hasn't lied before and is objectively successful and try it out for yourself to see if it works?
But....but....Aikido only works for da streetz!
Lol!
Analizing this video again, I will tell you the technical problem that I have observed here (according to aikikai aikido and other traditional budo). For some reason, even in your very first MMA sparring, you (Rokas) have forgotten that atemi waza (striking techniques) exist in aikido. In Morihei Ueshiba's words: "Atemi is the 99% of aikido", other sensei such as Gozo Shioda said that is the 70%, and others like Mitsugi Saotome the 100%.
But let us focus on O Sensei's words, because I am pretty sure (I need to investigate it a bit more, however) that O Sensei Morihei Ueshiba was citing Ogen's Formula, which is a formula by a swordsman called Ogen. He provided his students with a formula to success in a fight:
5 + 5 = 10
6 + 4 = 10
7 + 3 = 10
8 + 2 = 10
9 + 1 = 10
Explanation: Let us imagine that it takes 10 units to defeat the opponent, if we both take 5, it is a matter of strength. But if we take 9 (the atemi waza to prevent him from moving or to knock him down), just 1 is left to defeat him.
Atemi waza in aikido deals with kuzushi (loss of balance) A LOT, and I have not seen your intention to make your coach loosing his balance. As in your first MMA sparring, you are directly trying to catch the punches, which is IMPOSSIBLE... forgetting about atemi is a common nikkyu, ikkyu or shodan mistake. You, as a sandan (3rd dan/degree black belt) are supposed to know the basics, and atemi waza are part of those basics...
Your tai sabaki needs also some improvement, but comes alone with a proper position for the atemi.
And again, this is MY analysis purely from the point of view of aikido. You cannot expect using your aikido if your foundations are not solid enough. It is like having bad/wrong bjj foundations and claiming that it does not work against striking techniques...
About the Ogen's Formula, check it out, it is used nowadays by pro judo or kendo competitors (and surely by many others out of Japan)
I am open to discuss it with you, Rokas, since we are talking about your aikido.
Exactly. Atemi.
Kuzushi.
Bravo, perfectly said.
I do not know if you guys have seen this, but is really nice: th-cam.com/video/0u4ck4Se4gk/w-d-xo.html
This shows that being open minded is a matter of the individual and not of the style... you cannot imagine how many bjj black belts are actually adding aikido moves to their bjj.
th-cam.com/video/WAVxYY0hf-4/w-d-xo.html juts not how often thar rams of left out there to be trapped by a gloved hand...would those hands be grabbed and leveraged by an ungloved hand? the claim that the moment trapping is applied the other will counter with a punch please not how many moments of trapping were applied with zero counters from opponent
Let me try to explain what I think you totally missed about Kote Gaeshi. Look at this kickboxing video which deals with the same one-two combination th-cam.com/video/IdIY2IgMpE8/w-d-xo.html
Do you see Kote Gaeshi? No? Why not? Isn't the setup there? i.e. the unbalancing. To explain: if instead of counterpunching, he slid his hand down the arm while lowering his center of gravity, wouldn't he exactly end up in the position for the wrist lock? He's free to do it since the attacker's balance is broken and his hand is on the elbow.
Of course, once you've understood the evasion and the unbalancing, you can go for the counterpunch instead, like in the video, much simpler than the throw.
If you've only thought about Kote Gaeshi as a wrist lock, and never thought about the way towards the wristlock, then you will miss this martial application of the concept, and I'd say that's where your Aikido training failed you. If you tell me that there may be easier ways to learn the counterattack than practicing Aikido, sure, I believe you. But don't say that Aikido has no value in fighting just because you have a very myopic view of its techniques.
What is the relationship between the throw and the counterpunch? You quoted from Gozo Shiodas autobiography before. If you've read it, you'll remember the dialogue preceding the demonstration of aikijujitsu to the royal family. "Show them the lie!" -that is show them throws instead armlocks and counterpunches. The 90% atemi bit was quoted to you by others already.
Dude, I get that you want to disprove aikido,and I get it, I’m not a fan, but just because it doesn’t work in the ring doesn’t mean it’s shit, check out this video, I would never use this technique in the ring,but it’s effective in the situation: m.th-cam.com/video/83d-16REC40/w-d-xo.html
What a waste of people's time. Including your own.
Sad, petty, and dishonest at best.
😂😂😂😂
Hey - good one! I will now apply my own critical faculties and watch some videos that don’t deliberately waste my time. No offence Rokas, but I only have so many minutes in my life and one has to prioritise.
He sure fooled you! Don't you feel bad now? Rokas got a chuckle out of it. If all it takes is a little white lie to piss people off, I guess it is fair game.
@@jamesowens9710 Have to admit, when I first saw the video I wasn't sure about it, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt. That's what I get for being too trusting! As to whether I feel bad... No, I am glad to say I feel pretty great! This is one of those times when everybody gets what they want. Rokas got to have a little fun, and I get the time back I would have spent watching any more of his videos! Now every time one drops I will have that sweet sensation of reclaiming my life 6 to 10 minutes at a time.....
@@Anathmatician You can stop being passive-agressive salty any time now..
Dener Witt Given that that is 95% of my personality, I’m afraid I probably won’t (the other 5% is existential angst and cute animals).
You are basically describing the internet in general. Also you could add hypocrite into that since you said you dont like wasting your time but it seems you do like to waste your time with useless comments instead of just dont watching the videos.
Jebaited xD
I will be honest, I did believe you even though I was a little bit suspicious. I am following your journey for quite some time now and I trust you and didn't expect you to "betray" my trust. The things you pointed out now (why it wouldn't work) were the points I was suspicious about when I initially watched your video. But you legitimated them by saying that you could pull it off because you trained it for 15 years. As for the takedown I somehow assumed that you would surprise your opponent enough with that move enough that he wouldn't know how to react for a split second which would make it work. I really had more of some drunk guy on the street in mind though. That's not an excuse. I totally fell for it.
About myself: I did a little Judo as a kid and started Karate a year ago but quickly stopped doing it because it felt fake as well. I do watch and follow some fight/MMA related channels. So I would say that I have virtually no fighting background.
The joke is on folks like yourself who honestly trust that Rokas does not want to make you feel like an idiot...
Sorry, but I do not understand the point here.
I am really sorry, but from a technical point of view I do not think that the way you perform your aikido techniques (and I have seen most of your aikido videos, since AikidoSiauliai, all these years) would help you to apply those techniques properly... These techniques actually work, but training properly FROM THE BEGINNING.
If what you are trying to do is applying your aikido in a practical situation, I suggest you to go back to basics in aikido (and I am talking about retaking kihon, deai, maai, sudori, atemi...). If you do not want to, then do not blame or demerit aikido, it is YOUR aikido (base) the only element failing here. And no, do not blame yourself either, I know some stories that you told about the aikido community in Siauliai, these sensei considering himself like 12 dan and so on, and it is... kind of horrible. So again, if you do not want to go back to basics in aikido, at least do not talk about something that you do not fully understand.
The problem got even uglier the moment you analyzed Shioda's and Doshu's videos from the point of view of two bjj practitioners. It is like analyzing a kashima shin-ryu kenjutsu video from the point of view of a olympic fencing athlete... it is kind of wrong, they (your bjj coaches) are professionals of bjj and mma, but they did not understand the background of these techniques, as a fencer would not understand kashima. The athlete would say: "My opponent cannot stay in hasso no kamae with his sword, it does not work since I could thrust straight to his chest".
My suggestion, if it is allowed, why don't you go to an aikido dojo where they do work with pressure testing after your mma course? Bruce Bookman's, Bruno Orozco's, Lenny Sly's... would be a really awesome next chapter of your journey!
Hello again
Aikido Scholar!
thanks for your nice comment before, for some reason its gone now, I don't seem to be able to reply. In any case it was a fun chat :)
In regards to this comment, I am curious if you have any footage from your own training center or would you consider uploading some maybe? Its really hard to find aikido being used well in sparing and I know now you guys do some reality based stuff over there. I think it would help clear things up and would be well received among this crowd, all we ever seem to be able to find is the worst versions of it being shown. Just an idea anyway!
@@driver3899 Hello, nice to see you again! Yes, the main purpose of my channel is to upload different content related to aikido.
Right now I am mainly uploading technical videos with the techniques required for every level (from white belt) from different technical sources, let's call it a sort of "audiovisual guide".
But of course the plans with this channel are bigger than that, I want to upload interviews to different aikido sensei (trying to show the different ways of training that exist), some pedagogical videos of my own and some pressure testing with some of the non-aikido coaches of my environment too. This channel is so young yet... haha
Anyway, I do not know if you have seen it in the other video, but in the case of this technique, kote gaeshi, there are some videos of different pressure tests. Most of them against pure grappIing and clinches, but I remember seeing one of a punch successfully applied. For now, here is the video of that kote gaeshi in grappling by DanTheWolfman:
th-cam.com/video/7Oo2Sa8BHzs/w-d-xo.html
Has been nice seeing you again!
I have posted an analysis from the aikido's point of view of this video. Maybe you want to check it out, I tried to explain every mistake seen.
@@AikidoScholar
For sure I will watch it, my youtube is acting really weird at the moment but I will check it out when I can. Is it on your channel?
@@driver3899 Nope, is one of the last comments I posted in this video. I am afraid I do not have the proper equipment to record my analysis yet. 🤷🏻♂️
Great experiment. Something like this could be a nice Hail Mary to throw someone off guard in a very specific situation. As always, I applaud your willingness to have your ideas scrutinized. I hope you keep it up, and find some ways to work your Aikido experience into your current training.
But who made the claim that you could catch punches out of the air with Aikido? That was the red flag for me. You are speaking more from a standpoint of a complex of what you think they think rather than what they actually think. Basically, you are assuming. Unless Rokas told you that he was taught that I dunno.
the First and foremost golden rule in applying Kotegeshi is what?....... U must NOT try to apply it unless your opponents center is compromised. Sigh.
Meaning what exactly? The technique does work against punches but he was just doing it wrong?
@@driver3899 Meaning exactly what i stated. Did you see him take his center? Did you see him apply atemi ( strike) then take his balance in grappling range? then if those two things are applied successfully then the opponents main aim is to try to regain center or a place of strenght all while being stunned, then and only then it is possible to apply Kotegeshi effectively.
As his bjj coach stated in a previous video on the same technique; the problem with small joint manipulation is that the opponent still has a lot of structure in the rest of his body to free it. Hence take that away by striking and taking his center. This is jujutsu fundamentals.
@@driver3899 The technique does not work against punches. And i'm not saying its easy to apply the format i presented above. But that is the way it is taught in Jujutsu. All Jujustsu and Aikido practitioners should know this. It is Jujutsu 101... page one stuff.
There are a LOT of Aiki bunnies around. but they are not Practicing satisfactory Budo. They are just living in a fairytale with soft puffy clouds. cough cough.
@@steadydoesit8914
Ok, interesting. So how do you "take his center" before the wrist throw, is it a set balance breaking move like in judo?
@@driver3899 Yes judo has many effective ways. Do not even think of kotegashi until his structure is upset.
In contrast to many commentors: it is good to see you coming to understand how aikido is supposed to be used. Think about it correctly. Contrast: thinking food comes from supermarkets or factories...instead the soil, the plants, the waters. Aikido ( pure ) is cousin of bujutsu...senior, hard, ruff bujutsu. Aikido was formulated, initially to not be as immediately brutal or fatal as father bujutsu; so from bujutsu...jujutsu...from jujutsu : aikido. So then, Aikido is supposed to be "gentle" jujutsu. Not impractical, not airy, not faux... but really mirror to jujutsu in its application. Forever keep in mind, as o'Sensei dictated: Jujutsu principle(secret)...push when pulled, pull when pushed (there are other principles of course!)...Aikido's twin principle: enter when pulled, turn when pushed.
The whole thing is blown open right there. Aikido is supposed to be jujutsu with a certain fluidity that is masterfully destabilizing to the aggressor. My friends and I have returned to those principles some years now (about 16) and found Aikido vastly improved and works just as intended. Of course, precisional flow comes with practice/competence and it must be said that Aikido must study all other disciplines of movement (styles)to continue to increase capability in handling different motions. If jujutsu can handle it, Aikido must handle it! Fighting, after all, is geometry, physics and psychology ( including tactics).
It must be said, Jujutsu is beautiful and honored. Absolutely love it. Anyone studying Aikido must study the precursor of Jujutsu to completely appreciate the relay of the principles involved. I hope you attain enligthenment. I hope your journey is elliptical and propers you many things, especially a renewed insight and appreciation for the powerful system that is supposed to be Aikido.
Which attacks are true attacks? That's the key. I've said this since last year...in a duel, not all attacks are to hurt you, some are just baits, only experienced fighters know which is which. The principle is the same to any martial arts...all traditional techniques only work on committed attacks, the real attack done by opponent to hurt you, there you can apply whatever martial art techniques you have. The mistake martial art fighters usually made is eating the baits...and that's why their techniques failed.
Just ask yourself, if no martial arts work, then all fights will just be punches and kicks like kangaroo....
I really don't get it, why people in the year 2019 still think, that Aikido would Work in a Combat Sport Situation! It works perfectly for self development and, as a boucer i can tell, to throw drunk people Out of the Club :D
But in both cases you don't have much resistance when you apply the technique :D
I love Aikido, but be realistic guys :D i really appriciate Rokas work here
Wasnt it always meant as a means to defend Yourself against the average untrained attacker? Im doubtfull even its practitioners believe it would work against a broadly trained fighter
why do people wish aikido works? easy. because great martial artists like khabib, machida, jon jones and tony ferguson have taken techniques from sambo, wing chun, karate that have been long been seen as "ineffective" and have actually used said techniques in combat sport situations. from the karate front snap kick that muai thai practitioners drop saying a teep is better and that the front kick wouldn't hurt anyone (but used by both machida and silva to KO opponents), to sambo ground control principles that khabib blindsinds american wrestling oppenents with, to ferguson actually combining wing chun hand trapping with his boxing, to jon jones using a kung-fu/wing chun style oblique kick that is so effective. even BJJ isn't immune to evolution. just look at the eddie bravo vs gracie match. what matters is experimentation, and actual sparring resistance.
I recently read an interesting article, that quotes one of the original Aikidoka sent abroad to spread Aikido to the west - even back then, from the highest ranking ones, they are quoted saying they found winning fights (to demonstrate Aikidos effectiveness) against western fighters (boxing, wrestling) was extremely difficult for them, and they usually had to resort to other arts to compliment Aikido to manage it.
With that said, I think most peoples gripes these days, is when you read "Aikido doesn't work for anything", "Aikido is only for meditation" etc.. I think MOST people only want that out of Aikido, just what you described - a relatively non-violent way of dealing with low-to-medium "threats", generally from untrained people, often intoxicated - you know, the drunk uncle at the Christmas party, that asshole at the bar who's harassing your girlfriend while spilling his beer, the hustler on the street who refuses to let go of your arm, and so forth. Really, everything Aikido is built around, almost by nature won't work in an MMA-type setting.
Obviously, Aikido by itself is shit for MMA. Hell, even generally, Aikido is shit for MMA. Gloves fuck it up, can't grab fingers, trained fighters are too good to grab arms or wrists, pain compliance won't work, they've trained to get out of joint locks, the list goes on. Can some small bits of Aikido maybe work in MMA? Maybe. Can the principles work? A tiny bit, maybe. But it's pretty rare these days, that I see anyone claiming that Aikido is great for MMA - most people just say that Aikido works for the above mentioned scenarios, the "drunk uncles" of the world.
Do I think Aikido TRAINING METHODOLOGY is horribly horribly outdated? Yes. Even for those scenarios, Aikido is trained in an absolutely silly way. But man, wrist locks fucking hurt, lol.
I can tell you, that once you applied a wristlock, it's nearly impossible to get out, but lets be realistic :D you will never apply a kotegaeshi against a resisting opponent :D and kotegaeshi is one of the best locks, because you can so so many variations! japanese jiu-jitsu, German Jiu-Jutsu and even israeli Krav Maga use it :D
I think Aikido is one of the greatest martial arts ever, because it helps you to develop a healthy and peaceful way of life, but for self defense or Combat Sports, it is useless :D the real Problem are the Aikido "Masters" who want to sell Aikido as a Self defense System to their students
The technique works very good for movies, which is why most of us train any kind of martial arts.
Reading the previous video comment section I got really surprised with the amount of people who were celebrating it like a score in a world soccer cup final. Soccer fans use to pick a flag and defend it as it was their own skin. That was exactly the feeling I got from Aikido people in the comments. Sad.
You mean comments like this one:
>>This move actually comes from judo. One of our black belts at my Gracie Barra school who also did judo taught us this same throw and I love it. We actually started it from a position where someone reached out and grabbed your throat but it’s cool that you can do it from a punch>I do Muay Thai and could definitely see this being used against me (with the small gloves of course), especially in the later rounds when I’m not as fast. Get me to react with my guard up, bait that guard up and go for this aikido move and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t know what the hells going on for that split second.>If that's how your aikido instructor taught you how to do Kote gaishi it's a good thing you closed your dojo. You are way off balance by reaching over his hand to grab, and if he was being serious when he brought his arm back after the punch he would have nailed you right in the face with his other fist. Some are saying in the comments you are doing a prank on Aikido students here, and if you are then fine, Supposedly, you are a 3rd Dan, but from what I have seen you may have rank, but you have no competence. Also just a tip for Aikidoka out there, with a fast punch that don't try for the wrist, try to get kuzushi by the elbow.
@@Tigermaster1986. Well, maybe you're right about people who weren't caught in the prank being already waiting for it. But that's is not the point I'm raising up. Why should people celebrate whether something works or not? It's not a Victory for Aikido if something of all it's stuff work. Why be so concerned about aikido, Bjj, Muay Thai honor? We, as martial artists, should be way more interested in truth rather than keep our traditional identity safe. I think Rokas has been doing a great job in passing this mensage through. I have a long term relationship with traditional martial arts (Aikido/taekwondo) and I'm a recent student of BJJ. I can see value in all those practices but it doesn't make anything sacred to me.
@@PaulArchety Why be so concerned about aikido, Bjj, Muay Thai honor?
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I can't speak for anyone else, but... I'm not. I'm concerned about intellectual honesty. A flawed experiment will produce flawed results. If you read the comments under that video, you will see that it wasn't just Aikidokas that fell for it, it was people who didn't expect to be lied to, (almost) regardless of their style.
@@Tigermaster1986 But I guess that was exactly the intent of Rokas. He didn't want to prove Kotegaesh would work in that scenario. He was pretty sure it wouldn't. He was just trying to mesure how easily people would go for their bias. Considering a big picture it is not essentially a martial arts experiment. It's a critical thinking experiment performed in a martial arts environment.
Too much focus on techniques these days. Techniques are just a guide to help further your understanding of fundamentals, and once you master that understanding, then you'll see that all arts and systems are pretty much the same, just a different philosophy on execution. All the greats understood that and showed the proper respect to the different arts; Bruce Lee, Mike Tyson, Takeshi Kamura, ETC. Cross training doesn't mean you're just learning another system, it means you're gaining a different perspective, just like how a chef goes abroad to train in different cuisines to further their understanding of the culinary arts or how a musician plays a different genre of music to further their understanding of music theory. That's hard to do if you're closed minded and disrespectful. Don't judge a system or style by the effectiveness of a technique but by the level of understanding an instructor or practitioner has of the fundamentals, because if the fundamentals are there, then the technique will work.
From my training all of the locks that you attempt in striking distance must be a follow up from a strike or strikes. Same holds true for takedowns. My instructor taught us many disarms in Philippino martial arts, but the crucial lesson was not the disarm it was the principle of defanging the snake, so that it can't bite. So every punch, kick, elbow, knee, eye jab, headbutt, and so on must be a precursor to applying such techniques. The more I cut up your arm, the harder it is for you to hold the weapon so the more I break your resistance through the application of pain, the more applicable these sort of techniques become. The three quarter turn (without the arm barring your opponent) you performed would likely only work on an opponent you've already rocked/dazed some strikes ago, hand immobilization followed by striking then the lock, or through attack by drawing.
Sadly, many channels do this expecting people to take it serriously. Countless 'masters' of Wing Chun, Aikido, [>insert doubted style hereinsert popular proven style
In mma I already saw judo guys grabbing arm, as a defense for punches, and throwing the opponent away. But not anyway. They didnt this easily. They took some punches while they were doing this. But eventually this can happen, why not. If you do it appropriately, maybe you can find a way to do it.
But try to apply aikido in clinch... Whould be much better.
All aikido needs is explosive sparring(or more of it I'm not sure how all of specific instructors teach the fundamentals) but I'm a believer in aikido's hand manipulation in combat for many reasons including that I've been taken down by hand manipulation.
The test is nice, i am not a aikido guy (far from it), but i think the test was not done properly. Yes, he can pull his hands and stuff, but he knows a priori that you will try to do your aikido move, which i think it could work if the opponent is taken by surprise. If the opponent is tired and "throwing" his hands and not pulling it properly, maaybe this technique may work. You will have to test it in a real sparring where your opponent is not expecting it and try to apply when you got his timing and he is a little tired.
I am a Karate/Muay Thai guy, but i think this would be interesting.
Knew it!!! There is no way Kotagaeshi is going to work off a punch thrown by a fighter. Awesome.
@Birger Nilsson If a punch comes in and turns to a grab, it could possibly work. Its a standard wrist turn. Many martial arts have similar techniques. There must be SOME use for it. :D
@@sohrabkazerooni69 Usually near zero, it is trivial to counter.
My initial thought was, good luck in grabbing that arm during a fight. But I must admit it looked a lot more plausible to me than the bjj one. Probably because it was executed fast and looks good.
Also I'll say it again. Would love to see some real techniques.
Hah! I knew this was troll video.
This is "children" action , i can tell you that even you trained few month in there and you go back to your country , you still get you ass kicking in the street . Before you trying to find what technique is "secure" for you , firstly you must have "budo" mindset , then technique later , and that's how i overcome my fear at street fight . I can see the "insecure" feeling behind the camera.
this is just my observations on your skills and ability to apply,here it is ,i would ultimately say that you will fail to make mma,bjj and whatever else you are training in to work for you in real life in the same manner you failed to make aikido work for you.the reason is very simple you are making the same mistake you are making in aikido you assume the things you are training in will work .nearly very cop who is also a bjj or mma stylist have warned that mma and bjj WILL NOT work in a street encounter based on the simple reason that your aikido failed ALL,yes ALL did not train for reality...Bjj and mma success in the arena does not automatically translate into success in the streets ...
when it is ones failure to train for reality best not to blame it on the art.when you cant shoot straight under pressure and think things will happen as you train in the gun range dont blame the gun
i find it strange that if a person who wants to prove or disprove whether aikido works or not in the street or again mma should not thae person seek out someone who have successfully used such against rather than those who failed to used it including yourself and consult them how they were successful in application ?
going by your kind of reasoning than all guns should not work because of those who dont know to use them in true situation and only perform great in a gun range
hmm. all accounts of koichi tohei taking on 5 yondan and above jiujitsoka in hawaii way back when say it was something odd looking like that slap hands deal. the best account i read was from robert smith. tohei is famous for doing this repeatedly all over. that specific case he took on 5 yondan and above at the same time no rules. it allegedly looked like a grown man schooling young boys and it looked silly. now that is koichi tohei. not rokas. for what it's worth, i have seen this technique pulled off and it looked nothing like what rokas tried to do. there was no grab. there was no hanging out in front of uke waiting to catch a strike. it's a left to the chin over uke's number two and as he retracts, help him (don't grab) to retract more than he wants to. now can i pull that off on eddie. no way. can i pull it off on rokas? maybe. does that make it a useless technique? probably as useless as teaching me to rear naked choke in my first 3 months of training in jiujitsu. even more so if i have to pull off a rear naked choke on eddie. thanks for doing this. i want more like this and more on applied critical thinking applied to critical thinking.
This was my main issue with this video. In Aikido the Nage doesn't stand there in front of the Uke trying to snatch a wrist out of the air. If they're going to make the point the technique can't work then at least attempt to perform the move properly.
@@CharlesDunkley It usually does not work properly even if Nage but skips the funny rolling part, instead stays on their feet with good frame. I had some good time demonstrating to pretty good aikido folks how terrible it is and how terribly worse it is if someone actually tried to defend themselves intelligently. And yes, I played the part of Nage to the T except for falling down when moved.
It is at best a situational exploit to bad frame and the are other comparable exploits with wider applicability.
Astral storm. Your anecdotal performance is just that anecdotal, especially when most Aikido people fail to understand real application due to limited training methods.
@@AstralS7orm do you understand that nage was rokas in this scenario and eddie was uke?
it is exactly a situational exploit of uke's bad frame. what we're siting is that when nage is more skilled than rokas, the bad frame happens to uke because of nage's aggressive attack during uke's right cross. that aggressive attack is a left from nage. snatching a punch from the air is the first mistake good teachers scold about. there is no grab of uke's arm, wrist or anything. before during nor after that left to uke's body or head. it looks nothing like what rokas showed. it looks like close quarters karate. and probably is.
@@zendogbreath No, you can only exploit bad frame by pulling or pushing. Maybe striking too with intention of knocking someone off their legs.
Locks are supposed to work in any frame by pain and especially force and give a secure hold. Wrist hold is just about the least secure hold (that still holds) you can get and wrist rotation alone gives little of anything else. To execute the circle dance of sprawling, you need the elbow lock anyway or the guy walks around with you and you waltz. (Or they get annoyed and pull you by their own wrist.) It is hard to achieve the elbow lock on an isolated free arm, especially if you put both hands on the wrist. It is easy if your opponent helps you to do it or if they really are completely surprised. But then you can do any number of things that are immediately winning instead of 10s victory dance lap that attempts to not scratch the guy while putting them on the ground and at the same time ignores his other arm.
Sorry about uke/nage terminology, I sometimes mix it up.
Great video, teaching people to be critical of what they are seeing. I was watching the first one and saying to myself you aren't going to catch the guys wrist in real life and then you show that in your next video. Really enjoying your videos as it shows and open mind and no ego.
I look forward to the follow up video with you guys discussing the different responses received from the two videos!
hell yea
I've been waiting for the real version for a minute now lol.
It was pretty obvious it wouldn't work. It has the same problem as pretty much all Aikido techniques I've seen have. You can't grab wrists and gain control of the opponent for long enough to pull something like this off. It's easy to see why, and it's not just because the wrists are retracting back quickly.
Rokas I've seen videos of you trying that same move in your first BJJ tournament and it didn't work then either; and in that situation you were able to hang onto the wrists for more than an instant because it was a straight grappling match and the opponent wasn't trying to punch you.
Why is it that it still didn't work in that setting? Well let's look at it through a BJJ lens. What's the BJJ saying again? Position before submission? The fact is, when trying to use a wrist lock to throw your opponent from standing, you don't have control over the rest of their body. If they are any good at grappling and have any base to speak of, they aren't just going to go with it. They're going to fight back and try and pull their wrist from your hands. The entire throw rests upon you being able to maintain wrist/wrist lock control, AND position your body in the correct spot that gives you the leverage needed to force the opponent down. But because you only have control of the wrist, they can still move the rest of their body and their base to adjust and resist you and muscle out of your technique; which is ultimately you just holding onto my wrist for dear life while I punch you (or reaching out for wrists to grab).
A situation where I can see wrist lock type throws working is this: the guy grabs your collar. In that setting he's stapled himself to you so maintaining control of his wrist should be easier; he's actively giving it to you and trying to not let go. As far as gaining the rest of the body control needed (position before submission if you will), that's only going to come from a strike to the face or something that off balances and disrupts the person (makes them flinch) first, and then maybe you'd have a small window to grab the wrist and twist. But again, that involves the opponent grabbing your shirt, and you striking them. It's a very limited use technique. Sorry Aikido peeps....
Dillon looking at it through a bjj lens you're right, cause they have no good throws. What bjj guy has a good throw. Maybe Xande.
Kote gaeshi works all day, when you know how to do real Judo. Which Rokas does not. He doesn't get it, nor does that coach. But I actually think it's good people do not believe these things work. Keep training your mma template with the blinders on.
I think aikido is pretty awful, but labelling this vid as an exercise in 'critical thinking' when you know your viewers trust your judgement is also awful.
Once you trust an authority you tend to take a lot of what they say on faith because you cant learn anything if you literally question everything while its being taught.
For example when your instructor shows you how to jab, do you then go into a discussion of, 'but larry holmes / muhammad ali / mike tyson / tommy hearns etc did it this way, so why is yours different?'
In most cases, the instructor would be able to explain, but why should he? Do what he tells you, practice it, try it, *then* you can question it with authority ('think critically'). This is literally how you learn anything, so these trick videos arent encouraging critical thinking so much as mocking people who take you at your word.
Their actual critical thinking would have come without your 'reveal' anyway because if they actually care, they will try it in sparring and find out if it works for them.
Yeah, as someone with no striking training I thought this was an interesting counter that grapplers might be able to use. I took it on authority as, like you said, you can't learn if you question *everything* you hear.
@@georgek2092 good to hear the grappler's perspective. I used to do muay thai and even i was like, well, if the aikido expert and his mma coach say he could do it, then maybe i should try it.
Fyi, if you hit google you can even find an early 20th century article of a wrestler telling a judo guy that an arm bar is stupid and would be impossible to nail in a match.
That's fault on your part, if you do not question the authority (who/what, doesn't matter). You have to check/think if the information is sound.
@@GuitarsRockForever perhaps i wasnt clear. I said you should try it yourself rather than questioning the source, particularly when the source is already trusted. I did not say that you should follow blindly as you seem to imply.
This.
I totally bought what he was trying to sell, but, honestly, from the comments under that video I got the impression that the people who weren't fooled weren't fooled mostly because, unlike me, they'd already seen his previous fake video. This has nothing to do with the art people are experienced in. Here is a comment from a Muay Thai practitioner:
>> I do Muay Thai and could definitely see this being used against me (with the small gloves of course), especially in the later rounds when I’m not as fast. Get me to react with my guard up, bait that guard up and go for this aikido move and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t know what the hells going on for that split second. >If that's how your aikido instructor taught you how to do Kote gaishi it's a good thing you closed your dojo. You are way off balance by reaching over his hand to grab, and if he was being serious when he brought his arm back after the punch he would have nailed you right in the face with his other fist. Some are saying in the comments you are doing a prank on Aikido students here, and if you are then fine, Supposedly, you are a 3rd Dan, but from what I have seen you may have rank, but you have no competence. Also just a tip for Aikidoka out there, with a fast punch that don't try for the wrist, try to get kuzushi by the elbow.
Aikido the principles work in MMA the training methods Aikido uses does not work.
You se the best man I’m just... idk I’m laughing but not at anyone. Really well done.
Wow you really learned nothing in your Aikido training. First you never grab or catch you blend and let him turn toward you can then turn that into Tenshi Nage also move your body toward him don't reach that's called irmi nage but you should know that. Easy to defend against when your partner knows what your going to do ahead of time. What about Atemi throwing your own strike to interrupt, throw your right hand as your moving in then take the same hand you hit him with and move it in to Kote Gieshi. Sorry you waisted your time training in Aikido.
Cool man, give it a try at an MMA gym and let us know how it goes.
This was an interesting experiment, granted. And I think the reason I was more inclined to believe you (Rokas) could make this work was because you're an experienced Aikidoka, you trained the movements of wristlocks regularly for over a decade. I had no illusions that I'd be able to do it myself, as someone who has learnt one or two wristlocks as an afterthought in BJJ classes. I'm now feeling a bit stupid and very humbled, so I guess I'd call your experiment a success.
I'm half wondering if I should warn you against making a habit of posting these kinds of videos. I think it's valuable to always think critically when being shown new moves and concepts, and see what moves work for you. But as someone who watches lots of these online videos, I highly value a content producer who I can trust to produce videos of techniques that work well (at least, for them, in whatever context they state). If you were to make a habit of posting these kind of videos (which I don't think you would anyway), it'd make you a content producer that people wouldn't feel they'd be able to rely on for valid techniques (if there's a 50/50 chance you're doing a bait and switch).
Just a thought. Good experiment nonetheless and look forward to seeing your journey continue.
good point. it's more than that though. critical thinking requires more thought than simply how could i be wrong here. it's much more important to understand what happens if i'm wrong. what it rokas puts out one of these critical thinking vids and is wrong? what problems come from that?
@@zendogbreath i suppose the issue might be that Rokas has developed a trust and authenticity with his previous videos .... but now we have learned that he often lies "for our own good" ..... it doesn't sit too well with me. --> Q : how could i be wrong? A : Rokas could be lying Q : What happens if i am wrong? A : I wont trust Rokas as much
It's also a lot less visually obvious that it won't work, I think. An open back is easy to see, not being able to catch a punch because it retracts too fast is not so easy. The difference between a block that works and a grab that doesn't is a very subtle one, and is primarily a difference in timing and speed.
@@serenacula3256 oddly enough i was a little more skeptical of the MMA video because of the speed of the sparring / demonstration - where i would disagree is that there are plenty of techniques in BJJ that leave you exposed (such as passing choking arm over head as back escape - see Ryan V Jones EBI final) but are still "legit" techniques.
@@witte2702 yep it defines critical thinking about --------- critical thought. kinda like how i felt about my older siblings and parents lying to me bout santa
oh yeah you got me here..
Another video spent spreading the message "Aikido is useless, I wasted 14 years of my life, this is my revenge"...
He seems obsessed with it. From what we know of his background, I can see why he is so bitter. I would be bitter too if all I learned was a new dance style.
@@jamesowens9710 I know the Aikido school he practiced, his masters are high level and experienced martial artists. If we compared his older videos and his masters' demonstrations, we could see a big difference in what they were doing.
He totally misunderstood what he learned.
Aikido doesn't work in combat sports, although it isn't useless for self defence, but he never understood what his masters taught him.
@@FR3NS1S Is it the problem with him, or the masters, or the technique itself?
Funny, we have easy enough time recovering working technique from simple drawing of it and biomechanics in HEMA. (Not that they're better or anything, but they work in live combat, not just compliant demos.)
@@AstralS7orm I don't understand what do you mean with that
@Frito Pendejo Even if not, if they're not from Tomiki they're pretty done. Aikido in normal form (and all aikikai I've seen, which is not a lot) does not teach fighting.
I prefer this video to the bjj one because you guys show how the technique fails. I wish the bjj video have Rokas take Eddie's back and rnc him 🤣 If this becomes a series titled "Can this work? :technique name: in MMA" I hope you always show how the technique succeed/fail to allow a better understanding for the viewers
RNC work because don't work on Eddie ;) :D ... simple and logical ;) ...
Chinese TMA saying, being an expert in grappling (grappling as in joint manpulation) is less valued than a beginner in striking. （巧拿不如拙打）It's not that grappling does not work, but it takes a lot of skills and effort to make it work, at least more than the time you need to put into striking.
Another saying is 'a set of strength equates to ten set of skills' （一力降十會）. Power > techniques, hence needing a lot of dedication and training to make our techniques work in fight.
RAWSNL if wrestling-like grappling that puts people down to the floor , then definitely, but joint manipulation kind of grappling like Qin Na or Aikido would be hard to apply against someone who knows how to throw fakes or just flails around.
Much better to punch or grapple when you can to create space, distraction and opening before flowing into manipulation. Like boxing, only throw a cross when you have gauged the distance and created openings with your jabs, we should do the same with joint manipulation.
Tell your opponent that you are going to catch his wrist and kick him in the groin instead. I promise it will work! LOL The fundamental flow of your research is that you fixating on one technique. At first you let your opponent feed you so you can perform wrist lock. Then you ask him not to give you opportunity and of course you fail. In both cases he knows what is coming. If that was a case all real fights would be boring and predictable. Join locks do work we can see it in many wrestling methods over centuries! In fact, generally speaking everything works given prefect timing, distance and execution.
Still won't work against a punch from a trained fighter, though.
Luís Marques and of course everyone remembers “karate kid” kick by Machida that worked on Randy Couture lol Also they thought that BJJ doesn’t work until UFC net Gracie :)
I've tried kotegaeshi against uncooperative sparring partners, but never got it to work cleanly. Not trying to catch a fist, mind you, but after tearing loose from grabs. It feels better now to know that trying was silly, rather than me failing for other reasons.
I think I once managed to use it to follow a particularly nasty/lucky leg kick or foot stomp. Probably not so much evidence for the effectiveness of the wrist lock/throw, but it does pay off to act fast on a stunned opponent.
In sparring, you might even get away with an aikido technique if that's the first to come to mind. On a sufficiently distracted opponent, that is. In a real contest, I would have probably not gotten away with it. Adrenaline and determination make powerful allies.
My dime of critical thought: what about using atemi (strikes) as a setup for other techniques? The aikido class I attended stressed the importance of strikes in addition to body positioning (tai sebaki) to break the opponent's structure/stance. This at least reflects a basic awareness that the primary aikido techniques do not work out of the blue. But in fighting, a strike that destabilizes or stuns is usually followed up with more strikes or a grappling takedown.
Is there any scenario in which it pays off to follow up with a technique that requires being set up, rather than something that can be effective on its own? Not asking for hypotheticals here; there are plenty of recorded fights to pick an example from.
Why would you even try a kotegaeshi against someone who has boxing skill? I'm just a beginner aikidoka, but even I know that's not gonna happen...
No doubt, I recommend anyone doing aikido to spar with a boxer/kickboxer(I did). Rokas apparently thinks just cuz he was fooled for so long that everyone else was as well.
Well that was a waste of time.... Master Ken peforms the move better.
I’ve seen a few of your videos. I really like the critical thinking approach. This is an awesome video because it bridges your traditional aikido training to practical fighting application.
Are you familiar with hooking blocks? I teach those to students in taekwondo. It’s a good way to transition from striking to grappling, wrist locks in particular. /-)
I saw the first video, and i belived it.
I knew that they sometimes do this "fake" videos, but i still belived it.
In my expirience this kotakgeschi (aikido), or uru gyaku (ninjutsu), or simply wrist joint manipulation, worked one time in a real situation for me.
I guess that was just luck or so.
And i am nowhere able to proof it, i think if someone coud proof or is able to do this, we would see it in mma, but we are not (sadly) i liked wrist manipulation.
If i can find a sparring partner again(most are working the season and are away) ill upload the stsnding joint manipulations that i can use... Not as fancy as this but, pretty fun anyway ñ_ñ
Me too, wrist/joint locks can work, but not against someone attacking you. You got to take the initiative with them to work, and still they fail sometimes.
@@TheVigilante2000 i do a "figure 4" elbow/wrist lock from a punch parry, a standing armbar from another punch parry, and one that starts like the standing armbar but ends like an inbetween the figure 4 and a kotegaeshi... Those are the 3 that i land the most, with just luck i made other stuff work, but those 3 i can land more times than i can land a double leg...
@@TheVigilante2000 i do a "figure 4" elbow/wrist lock from a punch parry, a standing armbar from another punch parry, and one that starts like the standing armbar but ends like an inbetween the figure 4 and a kotegaeshi... Those are the 3 that i land the most, with just luck i made other stuff work, but those 3 i can land more times than i can land a double leg...
You know theres also the posibility of these wrist manipulation techniques being usefull against the average untrained agressor right?
As the end of the video reveals, Rokas' intent was to mock a particular segment of his audience. Painted as an "experiment" in critical thinking, but nothing more than a tool to poke fun of others. Worst of all, it is designed to malign those who trust Rokas the most as an honest content creator.
@@boxing.ascetic lol u mad bro
Doc you loss my respect with that one. I'm thinking you finally find something that works and you tricking folks. You shouldnt have done it in the first place. Show me something that works.
Is there anything in aikido that works?
Aikido is a fusion of martial art, philosophy and religion. O’Sensei, driven by deep religious believes, crated this art from a combat art, Aikijitsu or Daito-Ryu, to show his students a way of defending themselves without inflicting injury on their opponents. As a result, it became a a non-combat art showing a way of self-defence with very peaceful attitude. What is your problem with that? Not everyone is interested in kicking, punching, or rolling with other dudes as a way to learn self-defence. Aikido offers a different approach, it is not suitable for a combat, but it is suitable for self-defence. It can teach you footwork, distance control, and body movements to be able to stop the fight, not to escalate it. I don’t know why you are so shortsighted to see Aikido for what it is, not what what you were brainwashed with.
RAWSNL Have you ever seen a boxing round where one opponent dances around the ring and another one just follows him punching nothing but air? I’ve seen hundreds of them, not just in boxing, in MMA too. So yes, footwork alone can work well for self-defence. Unlike in combat or competition, you don’t need to defeat your opponent in self-defence.
@RAWSNL Tell that to my boxing coach. He was really happy he didn't need to teach me the fundamentals of footwork.
Are you planning to do a video with the opposite concept? To show some aikido techniques (or variants) that actually would work - or aren't there ANY?
I've made a video based on a similar concept named "pressure testing Aikido" if I remember the name correctly
@@MartialArtsJourney wow, thanks for the quick reply!
if you mean the bjj experts try to fix an aikido technique, I'm watching it right now and enjoy it very much :)
but I meant more of the "result" of such a session - just like this video, but with something that actually works.
Although i already know this is not going to work (you can check my last comment), but firstly you post a troll video and then you post later part video to crush the aikido practitioner , man , you lost the moral and dignity that you once have . Whether you like it or not , whether it is practical or just 'dancing' , you must respect all form of martial arts . Tell you the truth , from my friend 's job as policemen , he said that all 99% of martial art is practically useless in street fight .
Policemen try to gain control, no fight. They try to place you in cuffs.
The officers at my judo club (way back) found it useful for their work. They weren't street fighters, but policemen.
It could be just because it helped them with their budo mindset. I've never heard them talk about using a judo technique on a suspect, but it became clear that police don't get nearly enough grappling practice in on-the-job training. Spending a couple of nights a week at the judo club, wrestling younger and fitter people, sure as hell made a difference for their job.
I fully agree that mindset and attitude are at least as important as skill and technique in (avoiding) a real fight. But I'm calling bullshit on your "99% of martial art" comment: what does it even mean when your friend says that?
I'm so glad this isn't real I thought I was going crazy
There are a lot of pricks around Martial Arts, I have never seen something like this psychology before, I swear!
Rokas should check his demographic as his channel only rose when I used my commentary!
I knew this was coming!
It does not work because the performance is wrong. in aikido you can not drop anyone if he keep the ballance. Note the kotegaeshi should be applied for jab punch in counter-clockwise after one atemi so it possiblily works, The mma guy keep the ballance all time like a tree, very good. the aikido guy does know the aikido roots.
The term is Aiki bunny. The Aiki bunny doesnt know the Aikido roots.
Great experiment Rokas. Congratulations for keeping it real
Didnt believe it completely, cause stepping in like that with both your hands on hoe wrist opens you up for an attack with his other arm. Might work if you are willing to take a hit in order to potentially break his wrist
My friend who is a bjj coach lands kotagaeshi all the time from clinch where the opponent has one plum of the thai clinch, so it certainly works from that position/pressure
It is not kotegaeshi but a wristlock throw and I bet he does not pull you by the arm but throws you. A variant of ippon seoi nage if you will with a wristlock.
Kotegaeshi is done from distance and pulls the opponent by the arm in circle motion.
@@AstralS7orm who says kotagasshi has to be done from distance? And the compression of that circle is even part of normal aikido training. It was a wrist lock takedown, it was also kotagaeshi, or are you going to go all "it's not kimura its double wrist lock!" About it
On the original comment I posted “so it works against a one two. But what about against a one two three?” I was trying to show that I got that you were pulling a trick but without giving it away to other readers.
Also I never even debated martial arts but there were so many people calling you out personally (rather than aikido) that I ended up getting into a series of debates.
I’m seeing the same sort of mentality you’d expect from a flat eather. A lot of faith that they’re aware of some big secret no one else knows, no evidence at all that it is effective.
The last video I was thinking about no it cannot be... But as far as I don't have fighting experience and there are two I think reliable people I believed. But yet I expected more explanation.
and i fell for it, i need to do more sparring
Yes that's the answer progressive resistance no cooperative partner
How about trying it offencively? Like trample him with several punches and as soon as he raises his arms to defend you grab his wrist and apply the lock from there? Also the original technique seems to be meant for a powerfull punch that doesnt retract immediately, like an amateur would or a tired fighter might. Lets face it, 9 out of 10 would be attackers on the street is going to be an amateur.
Why would you wristlock a guy you have wrecked instead of any of the following, in the order of increasing effectiveness/speed:
- arm bar
- elbow lock
- arm lock
- knee or elbow to soft spots
- standing front choke
- standing rear choke
Because of his response and positioning...
Hah!! Rokus is beginning to get it.... It does NOT work off the fly.... It never has!! Kansetsu waza is a follow up FROM a strike.... FFS!!
Totally fell for it 😂😂😂. Instant classic
Wlad Klitschko with his 'hanging jab' guard and muay thai 'long guard' don't "keep it in tight". And if your fists are held too close to face without padded gloves on, they can be smacked into your face. A longer outstretched guard, as was standard in bare knuckle fighting,was and and before spongy pillows were tied around fists for more comfort and safety, is therefore a more 'standard' oldskool boxing/fighting guard, and leaves itself more open to this aikido technique. That's not to say that the aikido technique would even work 1% of the time, but I expect that this fact of longer guards being standard when gloves are off is the origin of the idea.
Hi and bravo. I would see an opening To this if you managed to read your oponent at mid or late rounds. When fatigue kicks in. Je this "trick" did not failed before To keep the surprise. There is definilitely something To dig here ;)
Well i have a little doubt but i realy think that you realy find a way to make it work. I left aikido a year ago, since then im doig full contact sports and sparings i really find a way too do some techniques but in general its hard.
Well, that is just plain ol' MEAN. Of course, you can't learn much from TH-cam - that's the take home message, when in face you CAN. However, everyone's truth is just a tiny bit different - anyone seeing any technique that 'works', even after watching UFC and getting carried away with 'oh my god, BJJ is the best' should go and train it and find out when it works and when it doesn't within their specific environment. Aikido will obviously only work in any capacity from some kind of clinch or overweighted attack.
When I watched the previous video I was thinking that It would have let you way open for a counter left hook while doing that or even just with the recail it would have been almost impossible to grab the hand. This said, I thought that if you are able to time the cross that good, it'd be a wasted opportunity when you could for example slightly parry downwards with your lead hand ( left if orthodox ) and come with an overhand right to the chin, which most likely will inflict loads of damage and from there continue striking of even take down depending on the situation. Keep up the good work!
I was thinking close to the same. " what about the other arm!" figthers have two...
Ah ha! I think that this was a great idea. I must admit I didn’t quite get what was going on straight away. I was skeptical of the technique because I couldn’t see how anyone could react to a 1,2 combo in that way but I didn’t want to say anything because of who was endorsing it and that did cause me to accept the Akido bit at face value. I loved the idea of trying techniques with fully resisting sparring partner to what happens and posting the results.
My favorite technique. However, I doubt that it will work in a mma fight. Of course there is probably a chance. Greetings!
Great Job man ben following you for a long time. it takes guts to do what you do. in my journey i noticed (hapkido /kempo) now bjj / judo but once you have some live training against a reseting opponitet. you can realy start to implement surtin techniques into your game from the classic arts like circule motion in hapkido . great job man. ignor the haters..
To all of you saying that Rokas broke your trust: are you forgetting that that he revealed the truth (and rather quickly)? If he showed ineffective techniques without pointing out their inefficacy then I could see your point, but he didn't do that.
To all of you saying that this test was more difficult than the jiu-jitsu one: perhaps. The standing range is much more dynamic than the grounded range, and so it is less obvious to identify a technique as low percentage. But a few rounds of trying it in live sparring should reveal that, even if theoretically possible, this technique is so unrealistic that no amount of precious training time should be devoted to it. Fundamentals should be the focus, and the fundamentals reveal themselves in live training.
Zero seconds. The technique only makes sense if striking is not allowed.
(Which is why I was playing to the joke that BJJ guy needed more judo time. Which in and of itself is silly.)
+
ForRealFightMoves
What you are saying here is the exact opposite of reality. If you see a new technique and try it a few times in sparring and it fails that is in NO WAY indicative of a bad technique. You would need to have trained the technique in question for at least 5 years. And tried it in many sparring sessions over that time. Then if it still fails it could be considered a very low percentage or bad technique.
Too many MMA and BJJ guys see a technique that does not fit their confirmation bias and they try it without even knowing how to do it properly and then claim it does not work.
There is an entire channel devoted to this sort of nonsense. Reality Check Self Defense is its name. They have no experience at all in the techniques they try. They watch a video and then try to emulate it and then dismiss it. Ludicrous.
Another bad one is Ramsey Dewey. He has done similar videos where he is way out of his area of expertise yet claims what he shows is proof something does not work.
Do not mistake what I am saying - there are plenty of bad techniques that are almost impossible to make work in a real fight. But there are many that seem bad but are gems. My point is a person who has not mastered the particular technique is in no position to determine its effectiveness. This is one of the principles behind scientific methodology. No one is going to ask a biologist to determine if a marine biology theory is correct are they. They would ask marine biologists. And they could only answer correctly after years of work.
@@VestigialHead So what's your argument from first principles?
Saying "try it more" is not a valid argument, you can try putting square pegs into round holes for all eternity.
The technique as shown is invalid from basic principles. The wrist is free to move, the other hand is free to move, the opponent will move so it is hard to land and can further remove any leverage, even worse, pull you by the hold. (Without even reversing it.) Sweep you and then you're dead in any number of ways as BJJ would do. Turn the hold into an armlock if you're aikijujutsu inclined. Choke you like standard combative would suggest or throw you as per judo. Bear hug wrestling throw from the other arm underhook. Or even just simply strike you until you're paste as krav or boxing style. Or eat as many knees as the Muay Thay practitioner wishes to deliver.
Even correct kotegaeshi (wrist lock combination) is situational at best. And that situation is not a frontal charge onto your person. It's what you can do once you have other means of control. It's essentially identical to your typical snake oil weapon disarm. It does not work in isolation. As such, it shouldn't be trained in isolation without training the approach first - and from there you would find a whole number of techniques much more applicable and ways to actually break someone's structure. (And no, aikido atemi is not enough.)
There is a good reason why wrist lock or even wrist throw techniques are so rarely seen and they stem from actual first principles. Strike a soft target hard, prevent movement then hyperextend. Avoid getting hit, thrown or grappled.
You cannot stop and grab a moving arm easily if at all.
Even aikido's using opponent's momentum is missing since most of it comes from the core and not arm movement... And if the person is moving, you can do more damage in other ways, more securely and surely. Much more.
@@AstralS7orm Trying more after being taught proper techniques is a very valid argument and is the entire basis of martial arts.
I can see a video of a very effective BJJ technique and then try it with my mate and shoot it full of holes. But obviously if you train that technique intensely and with skilled instructors and real sparring you will find the technique is very effective. The same can be said for any technique.
So my point is valid.
I am not trying to say that any technique is perfect and can not be stopped or dissipated. I am saying EVERY technique in existence can be defended or dissipated. So you could say that is not worth training because the opponent can just do this or that with any technique.
What ifs are not useful training questions.
@@VestigialHead Try dissipating a bullet.
There are limits to a technique and if you do not know them, you will die (or lose) if you meet your match or worse, actually better or advantaged in some regard. It does not even have to be skill.
That is not taught in many martial arts.
It's not that it can be countered, it's that even perfectly executed kotegaeshi is ridiculously easy to counter. As in a blue belt BJJ guy (can be as little as few months of work) working out on weekends can easily get it done.
A solid amateur boxer won't get caught with this.
It is simply not worth training until you've explored other things. Show me anything that could convince me otherwise. Even taking out rowdy unskilled street guys would do.
I'dv say if you have no evidence or have to resort to "only a master can pull it off" then the technique is just not useful. You would be better off training a punch and footwork a lot.
Life's too short to waste time. Anything is worth a college try, but not worth trying to polish poo into diamond at the expense of other things.
Without what ifs and actual combat (not choreographed) you will not improve. Kotegaeshi is open to what ifs and not pressure tested either. It is a limited tool for specific situation that is not properly introduced. Knowing this technique only you know nothing actually of how to actually apply wrist locks and when.
Principles trump techniques. Technique that does not match any principle without a specific opening is not general thus rarely useful and therefore low priority to train.
The thing with aikido is that actually applying the principles instead of techniques ends up with old stand up defensive jujutsu, but the techniques and footwork so not match aikido it is not even funny. Specifically, aikido movements do not flow in combat against resistance and do not connect to each other, while old jujutsu does. And allegedly flowing or blending with the opponent is a major aikido principle.
Specifically, when they're being interrupted there is no continuation.
Shows the lack of "what ifs" or sparring.
Aikido: Kote-Gaeshi
th-cam.com/video/YM2Hg2p08aE/w-d-xo.html
*Aikido -> timing, atemi, kuzushi* ... just enough and so much...
ilu ludzi tyle styli sztuk walki, nawet jeśli mają wspólną nazwę każdy dąży do celu inaczej i u każdego dana "technika" będzie "inna"...
I mean, if someone isn't over comitting and bulldoging towards you to punch your face, you want to fight.
Just back pedal until they over commit, that's Aikido. If you wanna fight, learn how to do it. Aikido is not for fighting, it's actually the opposite. If someone is endlessly swinging at you but you stay at a "I really don't wanna fight" range (Adesanya's posture against the Cuban guy the last fight during the last round), they'll gas out eventually; that or they'll over commit to get to you. That's when Aikido works. If the guy is postured like a boxing match just fucking leave, you won already. If he goes at you just fucking back pedal until he over commits.
I've never been in a cage but I trained Muai Thai and BJJ for like a year each. In real life people over commit A LOT if they actually wanna harm you and you're just backpedaling with a decent boxing guard. People who say this shit doesn't work just accept fights. Aikido never "Accepts" fights; it's just to deal with over committing opponents when they actually don't give a fuck and just want to hurt you, not for "matches" and shit.
The other thing is that, in real life, in real confrontation, men tend to grab their hands A LOT, so saying that those wrist locks aren't "Real". I mean, it's just hilarious to think people actually use "boxing" and "Muai Thai" when real fighting occurs. Most of the time is random scrambling...
This is pretty shocking obviously. Well I thought it was a Longshot move but I figured your months of training had given you the MMA skills to make some aikido work.
You were doing it wrong Rokas, sorry this is the correct way:
th-cam.com/video/aa8UHOvdm2U/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/XiPX-bQFW1w/w-d-xo.html
wait.. did I just find the aikido version of ForRealFightMoves??
Kotegaeshi is not aikido only. Comparing force based hybrid mma combat with aiki is not quite right thing to do. Different philosophy, different goals, different pedagogy, different state of mind.
Kotegaeshi or any other technique will not work if "partner" is aware of it. Yes Kotegaeshi hard to apply if you have prepared it in mind. There is no AIKI. Suggestion. You videos have nothing to with aikido,
Glad I finished watching before I broke the bad news. There are many ways to get to a successful Kote Gaeshi. Unfortunately, none of them come from Aikido. One of the easiest is probably from a collar tie or a half plump. Shrug out, like they do in wrestling but instead of going for a Russian tie or something like that, go for an arm-over Gonkyo then back into a Kote Gaeshi. Remember, if you're Kote Gaeshi fails, you've just opened up a line of attack to the side of your opponents face and head. Hit it with something!
I really REALLY enjoyed watching your videos until you started testing the viewers. As someone newer to BJJ and with little free time (I’m either at work or training or meal prepping/recovering)-i don’t have the extra bandwidth to learn something and find it’s not real. Now, I find myself not wanting to immediately watch your videos in case it’s a test. For those of us with less knowledge, it’s a lot less obvious when something is fake. I guess I’m disappointed, but maybe I would feel differently as a colored belt?
First of all there are two types of jab/tsuki. One: you just jab hardly reaching your target, the other you advance your whole body with the tsuki. If uke doesn’t advance but just quick-pokes from an immobile stance then this is not an attack. Second, I am not a great “master” of aikido but for the 12 years I trained we NEVER dealed with tsuki by grabbing it, we just posed a cutting sword above it from the side. If he retracts it then the force is withdrawn. If he would hit you to hurt you he’ll put a real force and advance a step towards you.
The other thing is that your never going to take someone down just by pulling their arm.
Not much of MMA experience here. And no Aikido at all. But still, i think that the takedown itself is not the problem. It's just difficult to catch that arm like that. Wrist locks have helped me before to execute a takedown, usually from a clinch situation.
Serafim B Mm, if your starting from clinch then your starting with more then just an arm. I’d imagine maybe a wrist lock could open up a take down but not alone there’s not enough connection. But maybe i’m wrong? Do you have any videos i could reference that are none compliant?
The reactions on here are very interesting. You've already explained many times (omg, so many times) how to think critically about martial arts techniques. Yet some people still were fooled. Okay, that happens. However, the commenters have two different mindsets. All who were fooled feel ashamed. Some look inward and ask what they're doing wrong to have been fooled so easily, and how they can improve. That's a very mature way. Others run from the feeling and look outward to blame you for being mean to them. It's immature, and what they don't understand is that a coach or teacher will encourage critical thinking by testing it, once in a while.
I'm glad you did this. Don't be discouraged by any negative comments. You are extremely polite and caring, and are doing exactly what needs to be done, because of how caring you are. Remember that many people have been positively affected by your work.
My BJJ coach showed me a technique a while ago which was like the one you are showing in the video but it was from guard. The idea was that if it failed it turned into a back take if it succeeded it would hopefully result in a tap or the control allowed for other submission opportunities. He did say it would not submit many experienced people. It felt like more of a trap being laid than anything. I have never done it in a roll that being said I can't do anything in a roll yet other than surviving a little ;)
At hapkido we practice alot of punch counter exercises with techniques like this, if I pull my punches nothing works very nicely and everything gets messy instantly. Maybe it would only work for Steven Seagal ;D
Hey Rokas, new sub here, but I've seen a few of your videos.
I've never trained Aikido but I think the main problem with the technique is the trapping itself. Maybe you can get a dominant position and prevent the easy escape by trapping and holding the hand differntly?
This is because the principles, the foundational ideas of aikido, are *fundamentally flawed*
People who think that aikido could be effective if it was trained “effectively” are delusional. You might as well say it’s possible for humans to fly as long as they trained properly...
I had NO COMMENT for your last video ;) Thank you for truing it up!
Wasn't sure if this part was part of the joke or not, but in the original upload I was like, "One of the best gyms in the world? Really?" But I take it that was part of the test to build up the credibility of the perceived authority figure, right? Still sounds like a pretty cool gym, though haha
Obviously the system doesn't work as shown by the practitioners in the video. But I got a system of attack that's kind of similar in which mines does work. Now I don't catch flying punches though, but if a guy is in his stance I will sometimes reach out, and grab his wrist. And once I grab & hold his wrist(from a side angle of my opponent) I will unleash punches upon my opponent with the free hand. And since I'm on the side of him he can't reach me with his free hand. And if he tries to turn to me in order to reach me I will turn with him as I continue to strike him.
Sucks to be the people who wasted valuable training time trying this.
A video is never proof that a technique "works". Even if it works for you, it might not work for me. You have to try it yourself.
If an instructor is consistently showing you videos that work well for you, then you start to trust that instructor that when they show a technique, it's likely to work for you.
On the other hand, if an instructor intentionally makes fake videos, then you know not to trust that instructor. Yeah this looked highly suspicious from the start, but you'd always been upfront in the past, so some might have thought they were just doing something wrong. Usually if it works for anyone, especially MMA instructors in sparing, then I really should be able to make it work for me.
But if an instructor lies to you, then the main lesson you can take away from it is to never trust that instructor again.
I keep thinking arm drag. And left hook
Now that I've seen the video, I assume all aikido doesn't work, because if something does kinda work you have to adapt it to a wrestling or judo technique.
More than anything I was thinking I was going to have to stop watching you at first
In fact the wrist lock you demonstrated is similar to a move in Buddhist Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar. Aikido and Taijiquan share the same idea of using opponents' energy against themselves.