I'm planning to go with the minimal tech option of Mike Oehler's earth sheltered greenhouse as a front porch extension to a "wofati": richsoil.com/wofati.jsp This is in western Montana, around zone 5, and I've slept in a wofati there and it's naturally warmer from the earth berming. The greenhouse on front will use raised beds so the coldest air drops below the plants. The wall of windows between house and greenhouse will let some of the internal heat through as well. Since the raised beds can go in last, it makes it easier to put some air tubes in the ground, and have a solar powered fan circulate the warmer daytime air into the soil to heat it up, so that might be the only tech I might try.
Ive always wanted to build a large cistern under my greenhouse then use a solar pool heater, place it inside its own lil greenhouse, and use a solar pump to heat the water up during the day. Im not even sure if a heat exchanger would be required for night as the heat rising may be enough to keep it in the 40s. Like you mentioned, the initial cost of construction is expensive. Btw heatpumps are terrible in freezing weather. They usually use resistive heating to compensate for the defrost cycles. When its near freezing the coils on the condenser will ice over quickly, kicking in the defrost cycle, which is the cooling mode. Remember, a heat pump is pulling that energy from the temp differential. The colder it is the less heat it can grab and put inside. It probly wouldnt be a huge problem in a greenhouse if your just trying to keep it in the 40s or 50s but it will run continuously. Then there is biogas which can be a very cheap option if you have the organic matter to fuel it. Also the added bonus of extra co2 in the greenhouse.
A big advantage of thermal solar in my eyes is in certain applications where you just need reliable heat and have a small footprint to work with. Another thing is you could position some mirrors to reflect additional sunlight on the collector (pv would overheat) if you need to heat a pool/greenhouse/thermal battery/buffertank for hot water etc. i think a thermal collector can be quite useful. The con is always the piping. I could see a thermal battery with thermal solar to keep a stock water tank from freezing(might be cheaper with pv tough)
I think you can do both. Your northern wall could be built out of IBC totes, with removable insulation panels on the outside. Your solar panels could be mounted on top of that wall, facing south of course. Your heat pump water heater can be in the greenhouse. During the day it wöuld remove heat from the air, and add that heat to the water storage. At night the heat would naturally radiate back into the greenhouse. A little bit crazier: In summer, the insulation panels would be removed from the outside and used inside. The heat pump water heater would still heat the water. The heated water would shed heat into the night air, with help from a heater cores and fans, mounted outside the greenhouse. Extra crazy idea. Mount heat exchanger coils on the back of your PV panels, collect the heat and improve their performance. Super stupid crazy idea: Your PV panels are mounted on the inside of a hinged and insulated "lid", which opens to reveal the greenhouse glazing and PV . Probably too heavy to actually work.
I like Extra crazy best. Alternate crazy instead of storing the energy in lithium batteries, run the heat pumps immediately and store that in a thermal battery. then release it at night.
I live in northern Us so I use both. The pv runs ac and other power. Thermal heats a hot water pretank for my hot water usage and heats my house in the winter
People here are wondering about numbers so I did some math. A 55 Gallon drum of water heated 40C above ambient temperature has about 9kWh of energy in it, which is roughly a 12V battery with a 750 AH capacity. Rough math: Water has 4.1J/gC heat capacity 55 gallons of water weighs ~200kg 200Kg*40C*4.1J/gC ~=33MJ ~=9kWh
Just to put the info somewhere, if you mix abt 5 micron fine zinc dust 10% per weight in black paint you will increase heat collection by more than 17%. (See study: Indoor and outdoor performance study of metallic zinc particles....) Now if you use "Isonem thermal paint" (or similar, contains vacuum microspheres) on the inside of boards in your tube coil heat collector you should be able to again decrease loss and increase reflectivity back to the tubes significantly, not cheap 5 to 10 eur/$ per m2 (just found 3M glass microspheres you can mix in your paint yourself...cheaper) but better insulation cost even more. I will have to try it...
If PV is installed, then it's more economic to add a wind turbine because the electrical storage and load side already exists. Significant in areas like ours with plenty of wind but a lot of cloud in winter.
It sounds like the thermal panels are very efficient and that heat is probably convertible to light with diodes. Then magnifying lenses might enhance that light so photovoltaic can get more supply. Might be quieter than turbine. Probably easier way to get electricity via conductive metals...heat rises is thought with turbine though because a fabricated draft might be possible
Alternate crazy idea PV+heat pump + thermal battery. Run the heat pump during the day to store thermal energy into a thermal battery during the day then release the heat at night. PV is cheap and last 20 years.Thermal battery is cheap and long lasting. A big problem with thermal batteries is they inefficient when you need to electricity out of them but efficient if you want het. if the battery is below the level of the green house (in ground?) then you may not need much of pump to move the energy from the battery since since hot water/air rises.
I'd be interested in looking at the numbers extended over the life of these two types of designs. If we accept that the Lithium batteries will need to be replaced several times over three decades while we should expect a well built, thermal battery to need zero maintenance across that same period, the total ROI over the life of the project might even up. This would obviously depend on how often you needed to replace the battery bank. It's been my experience that the battery packs will likely need to be replaced every five years. And even if we take into account the cost of batteries dropping over that same period, that's a significant cost.
this is kind of on the subject but in 1984 I work for resource technologies Incorporated and they manufactured a panel called solartherm...we open 260 offices across the country and then Ronald Reagan discontinue the federal tax credits for solar and the company closed... We used sunlight and a fan to blow hot air from the roof into the house below
My experience. Having thermal panels still installed since 21 years and PV panels installed since less than 1 year. Nowadays, I would only choose PV panels. Why? The thermal panels produce more energy when less hot water is needed (summer) and they only produce hot water. However, the PV panels can be used to operate any kind of electric device (heat, cold,...), i.e. in summer they can produce cold (with an AC) or reduce the electricity bill,...
For heating homes I think both. I have built solar air heaters and they work especially if highly insulated. Solar PV could heat up electric coils in thermal mass floors.
One additional way to store additonal energy (in home application in summer or warmer climes) is to cool more significantly at night when power is cheaper. And set thermostat higher during the day. What about cheap home built geothermal rigs. Not too bad to pay a guy to dig a trnch for thr exchanger coils . Benefit is with said heat pump you an also use to cool in summer. Hybrid system approaches can be better for some applications.
I live in an area where ~98% of all electricity is generated by hydro (dams, run of river, etc.) and a country that is ~60% hydro electric. I enjoy some of the lowest electricity rates in the world. It doesn't make financial sense to buy all of this equipment myself. Informative video though.
I use solar tubes to heat my greenhouse via a sand battery which heats the greenhouse at night and recharges during the day, much better than electrical solar panels and a lot cheaper to buy.
We don’t use sun in right way for the greenhouse climating. We can use sun to heat up the water at day time and stock the hot water in buffer tank to use at night. Heating up should be done by lenses. We are on research and development period of these systems. We will show better solutions soon.
By the way thanks for sticking up for Christians in one of your other videos!!! Ppl faith shouldn't be an issue because alot of Christians on TH-cam just want to help others be more self sufficient. Helping others is a majority of Jesus' message. I'm a faithful servant of the Lord, so thanks again
I defend all religions, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, even the cult of the flying spaghetti monster! You have a right to believe in whatever you want without persecution.
There's a doomsday advantage to thermal I see. Use mechanical timers and ZERO digital and minimal or zero electrical. EMP attacks. There's always a chance a solar flare can kill all electronics. Just a FYI for any preppers here
A fellow prepper here. I shifted both heating AND cooling to solar thermal. Yes, there are technologies that do refrigeration and use heat energy as their primary energy source. Solar thermal can also be used to dry foods and make food powders that last several years if stored in dehumidified environments and guess what, solar thermal can also power dehumidifiers that work on desiccant technology.
Hi I m from india My question Can I make 100 litter thermal heater and use this thermal heat to my green house at night by gi water pipes which I also use to hold the green house as use itin fabrication of green house
I have a 10 foot by 12 foot greenhouse - would I really need a big heat pump like shown in the background of your video for $1,200? Wouldn't an end-of-season sale window unit be sufficient for a space that size? My concern is that I only need this maybe a dozen nights (and maybe days) a year here in zone 6b, but when it gets down to 10 degrees farenheit, how well is a heat pump going to work anyway? The heat pump on our house switches to the natural gas backup system when ambient temperatures are below 40 degrees farenheit. Btw, I pretty much am growing cool weather crops in the greenhouse in the winter. Not ambitious enough to be trying to grow tomatoes in January in zone 6b.
yes what you buy economically depends on what you need - I live in manitoba Canada so I'm always thinking super cold - you don't need that much heating
That is an older heat pump. The new ones work way below freezing. But a even better solution is to use the earth as the heat source. Where you live the ground is a lot warmer than the air in the winter and pump heat energy from that.
I like your flash on the screen a vcr and beta. Not an exact comparison but close enough to give the point. PV is winning by investment dollars and panel durability. Evac thermal tube glass is only so strong. When one breaks your system can drain out. That said, I still want both systems storing electric in a redflow redux flow battery and thermal in a daisy chain of sand filled tanks. Back to VHS: Understand that Sony won the battle because they sold it extreme loss to beat out betamax in the marketplace. betamax still the superior product. Just like tasimo is supirior to Keurig but lost on price.
@@SimpleTek of course it work. But how about efficiency? That's the problem of heat pump. For example if you live in cold weather like -5 or -10 is normal you shouldn't use heat pump because of efficiency. Electric combi with resistant is more reliable with same low efficiency. Ground to air heat pumps are much more efficient then air to air. Because of that i asked how it works.
Still the problem with PV is storage! Without a conventional power generation plant to act as a battery PV is useless. You can use the lithium batteries, but the cost to store the energy is ridiculous. Ten to fifteen thousand dollars to store enough energy for a small house and you have replace them every eight to ten years. Look at the Tesla power wall, about sixteen thousand dollars Canadian to store $1.00 worth of electricity. You can give me the electricity free, I can’t afford to store it!
@@SimpleTek also the average lithium battery might get 5000 charge cycles. To have a battery that will last a lifetime you need over 30000 charge cycles.
@@dgreen341 I believe the 5000 cycles is based on 80% DoD, going from 90% to 10% every day. That certainly won't happen, large parts of the year the heat pump isn't running at all. 5000 cycles could easily last 20+ years.
What kind of Solar heating system do you have or want?
I'm planning to go with the minimal tech option of Mike Oehler's earth sheltered greenhouse as a front porch extension to a "wofati": richsoil.com/wofati.jsp This is in western Montana, around zone 5, and I've slept in a wofati there and it's naturally warmer from the earth berming. The greenhouse on front will use raised beds so the coldest air drops below the plants. The wall of windows between house and greenhouse will let some of the internal heat through as well. Since the raised beds can go in last, it makes it easier to put some air tubes in the ground, and have a solar powered fan circulate the warmer daytime air into the soil to heat it up, so that might be the only tech I might try.
Thought you might be interested in this webinar we did for the Department of Defense: th-cam.com/video/i-AehL9Opkc/w-d-xo.html
@@chammockutube Thank you!
Ive always wanted to build a large cistern under my greenhouse then use a solar pool heater, place it inside its own lil greenhouse, and use a solar pump to heat the water up during the day.
Im not even sure if a heat exchanger would be required for night as the heat rising may be enough to keep it in the 40s.
Like you mentioned, the initial cost of construction is expensive.
Btw heatpumps are terrible in freezing weather. They usually use resistive heating to compensate for the defrost cycles. When its near freezing the coils on the condenser will ice over quickly, kicking in the defrost cycle, which is the cooling mode. Remember, a heat pump is pulling that energy from the temp differential. The colder it is the less heat it can grab and put inside. It probly wouldnt be a huge problem in a greenhouse if your just trying to keep it in the 40s or 50s but it will run continuously.
Then there is biogas which can be a very cheap option if you have the organic matter to fuel it. Also the added bonus of extra co2 in the greenhouse.
R134a solar heating panel which one is most efficient if you use closed systems.
A big advantage of thermal solar in my eyes is in certain applications where you just need reliable heat and have a small footprint to work with. Another thing is you could position some mirrors to reflect additional sunlight on the collector (pv would overheat) if you need to heat a pool/greenhouse/thermal battery/buffertank for hot water etc. i think a thermal collector can be quite useful. The con is always the piping. I could see a thermal battery with thermal solar to keep a stock water tank from freezing(might be cheaper with pv tough)
Simple tek you are great guy which wakes up the greenhouse sector from their sleep.
Thank you for the kind words!
I think you can do both.
Your northern wall could be built out of IBC totes, with removable insulation panels on the outside.
Your solar panels could be mounted on top of that wall, facing south of course.
Your heat pump water heater can be in the greenhouse.
During the day it wöuld remove heat from the air, and add that heat to the water storage.
At night the heat would naturally radiate back into the greenhouse.
A little bit crazier:
In summer, the insulation panels would be removed from the outside and used inside.
The heat pump water heater would still heat the water.
The heated water would shed heat into the night air, with help from a heater cores and fans, mounted outside the greenhouse.
Extra crazy idea.
Mount heat exchanger coils on the back of your PV panels, collect the heat and improve their performance.
Super stupid crazy idea:
Your PV panels are mounted on the inside of a hinged and insulated "lid", which opens to reveal the greenhouse glazing and PV .
Probably too heavy to actually work.
I like the way your thinking
I think you might be right!
I like Extra crazy best.
Alternate crazy instead of storing the energy in lithium batteries, run the heat pumps immediately and store that in a thermal battery. then release it at night.
I would love to see a video on how to 'do the math'. For different systems, different sizes. You have a nice set of videos.
Great suggestion!
I live in northern Us so I use both. The pv runs ac and other power. Thermal heats a hot water pretank for my hot water usage and heats my house in the winter
they each have their purpose!
People here are wondering about numbers so I did some math. A 55 Gallon drum of water heated 40C above ambient temperature has about 9kWh of energy in it, which is roughly a 12V battery with a 750 AH capacity.
Rough math:
Water has 4.1J/gC heat capacity
55 gallons of water weighs ~200kg
200Kg*40C*4.1J/gC ~=33MJ ~=9kWh
That's awesome - thank you!
Great topic! I'm dealing with this issue now. Building my green house and heat system.
thank you - good luck with your system!
Heat pump can also be used for A/C correct? My greenhouse becomes a shed in the summer because I can't get the temperature down and everything dies.
yes - absolutely!
Simple tek! that is the name of this channel.... Hahaha I just love it! great channel!
Glad you enjoy it!
Just to put the info somewhere, if you mix abt 5 micron fine zinc dust 10% per weight in black paint you will increase heat collection by more than 17%.
(See study: Indoor and outdoor performance study of metallic zinc particles....)
Now if you use "Isonem thermal paint" (or similar, contains vacuum microspheres) on the inside of boards in your tube coil heat collector you should be able to again decrease loss and increase reflectivity back to the tubes significantly, not cheap 5 to 10 eur/$ per m2 (just found 3M glass microspheres you can mix in your paint yourself...cheaper) but better insulation cost even more. I will have to try it...
Wow
This guy is a thinker ❤
:)
If PV is installed, then it's more economic to add a wind turbine because the electrical storage and load side already exists. Significant in areas like ours with plenty of wind but a lot of cloud in winter.
totally agree!
They definitely compliment each other quite well, especially in areas with relatively few trees or major buildings.
It sounds like the thermal panels are very efficient and that heat is probably convertible to light with diodes. Then magnifying lenses might enhance that light so photovoltaic can get more supply. Might be quieter than turbine. Probably easier way to get electricity via conductive metals...heat rises is thought with turbine though because a fabricated draft might be possible
Alternate crazy idea PV+heat pump + thermal battery. Run the heat pump during the day to store thermal energy into a thermal battery during the day then release the heat at night. PV is cheap and last 20 years.Thermal battery is cheap and long lasting. A big problem with thermal batteries is they inefficient when you need to electricity out of them but efficient if you want het. if the battery is below the level of the green house (in ground?) then you may not need much of pump to move the energy from the battery since since hot water/air rises.
interesting!
So this is why we're still waiting for your thermal dirt battery video!
PV + lithium ion + air-to-air heat pump for the win!
I need to put up more videos.... Thank you for the kind words!
I'd be interested in looking at the numbers extended over the life of these two types of designs. If we accept that the Lithium batteries will need to be replaced several times over three decades while we should expect a well built, thermal battery to need zero maintenance across that same period, the total ROI over the life of the project might even up. This would obviously depend on how often you needed to replace the battery bank. It's been my experience that the battery packs will likely need to be replaced every five years. And even if we take into account the cost of batteries dropping over that same period, that's a significant cost.
very good point
are you planning on doing a video on making cheap aercrete pannels?
actually YES - soon!!!!!!!!!
this is kind of on the subject but in 1984 I work for resource technologies Incorporated and they manufactured a panel called solartherm...we open 260 offices across the country and then Ronald Reagan discontinue the federal tax credits for solar and the company closed... We used sunlight and a fan to blow hot air from the roof into the house below
That's awesome - thank you for sharing!
My experience. Having thermal panels still installed since 21 years and PV panels installed since less than 1 year. Nowadays, I would only choose PV panels. Why? The thermal panels produce more energy when less hot water is needed (summer) and they only produce hot water. However, the PV panels can be used to operate any kind of electric device (heat, cold,...), i.e. in summer they can produce cold (with an AC) or reduce the electricity bill,...
Costs have changed a lot in the last few years
where does one get the insulated blankets to put over the greenhouse?
amazon or alibaba
Do you have any suggestions on where to purchase lithium batteries to store the energy from my solar?
amazon or alibaba
Missouri wind and solar
I bought used off of battery hook up
A good SS cylinder is going to last ages especially with a additive in the water, battery replacement is very expensive
sweet
For heating homes I think both. I have built solar air heaters and they work especially if highly insulated. Solar PV could heat up electric coils in thermal mass floors.
One additional way to store additonal energy (in home application in summer or warmer climes) is to cool more significantly at night when power is cheaper. And set thermostat higher during the day. What about cheap home built geothermal rigs. Not too bad to pay a guy to dig a trnch for thr exchanger coils . Benefit is with said heat pump you an also use to cool in summer. Hybrid system approaches can be better for some applications.
interesting !
Also some hybrid solar mixed with vacuum tubes pannels you can get now to do a bit of both in same surface area
very true
I live in an area where ~98% of all electricity is generated by hydro (dams, run of river, etc.) and a country that is ~60% hydro electric. I enjoy some of the lowest electricity rates in the world. It doesn't make financial sense to buy all of this equipment myself. Informative video though.
everybody's situation is different
@@SimpleTek indeed.
Isn't there a voltaic Hazzard waste produce when they have to be remove or replaced
ok
Not any more. Recycling is actually simple comparatively.
What s with the funky head movement ?
I did it to confuse you
Definitely going to look into this
;)
How would pvt panels compare?
I don’t know
I use solar tubes to heat my greenhouse via a sand battery which heats the greenhouse at night and recharges during the day, much better than electrical solar panels and a lot cheaper to buy.
That’s awesome
There are good Systems which are glass panels that heat up the water up to 300 Celsius.
Do those systems have a name?
thermal is way more efficient - but photovoltaic is much cheaper now
We don’t use sun in right way for the greenhouse climating. We can use sun to heat up the water at day time and stock the hot water in buffer tank to use at night. Heating up should be done by lenses. We are on research and development period of these systems. We will show better solutions soon.
Hey buddy I'm curious! If u have a wood boiler why don't u store that heat in an earth battery so that u don't have to run the boiler all the time?
By the way thanks for sticking up for Christians in one of your other videos!!! Ppl faith shouldn't be an issue because alot of Christians on TH-cam just want to help others be more self sufficient. Helping others is a majority of Jesus' message. I'm a faithful servant of the Lord, so thanks again
cost - thinking of new systems all the time....
I defend all religions, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, even the cult of the flying spaghetti monster! You have a right to believe in whatever you want without persecution.
There's a doomsday advantage to thermal I see. Use mechanical timers and ZERO digital and minimal or zero electrical. EMP attacks. There's always a chance a solar flare can kill all electronics. Just a FYI for any preppers here
you need backup components berries underground for this kind of use!
A fellow prepper here. I shifted both heating AND cooling to solar thermal. Yes, there are technologies that do refrigeration and use heat energy as their primary energy source. Solar thermal can also be used to dry foods and make food powders that last several years if stored in dehumidified environments and guess what, solar thermal can also power dehumidifiers that work on desiccant technology.
Hi I m from india
My question
Can I make 100 litter thermal heater and use this thermal heat to my green house at night by gi water pipes which I also use to hold the green house as use itin fabrication of green house
need a lot more info
I have a 10 foot by 12 foot greenhouse - would I really need a big heat pump like shown in the background of your video for $1,200? Wouldn't an end-of-season sale window unit be sufficient for a space that size? My concern is that I only need this maybe a dozen nights (and maybe days) a year here in zone 6b, but when it gets down to 10 degrees farenheit, how well is a heat pump going to work anyway? The heat pump on our house switches to the natural gas backup system when ambient temperatures are below 40 degrees farenheit. Btw, I pretty much am growing cool weather crops in the greenhouse in the winter. Not ambitious enough to be trying to grow tomatoes in January in zone 6b.
yes what you buy economically depends on what you need - I live in manitoba Canada so I'm always thinking super cold - you don't need that much heating
That is an older heat pump. The new ones work way below freezing. But a even better solution is to use the earth as the heat source. Where you live the ground is a lot warmer than the air in the winter and pump heat energy from that.
The problem with solar panels is that they need space, and it is not possible to install them on top of the greenhouse.
True
This is interesting, but it would be substantially more useful with some real numbers and a whiteboard.
Thank you
Ok but what if there are no more battery's than what?
Good point
I like your flash on the screen a vcr and beta. Not an exact comparison but close enough to give the point. PV is winning by investment dollars and panel durability. Evac thermal tube glass is only so strong. When one breaks your system can drain out. That said, I still want both systems storing electric in a redflow redux flow battery and thermal in a daisy chain of sand filled tanks.
Back to VHS: Understand that Sony won the battle because they sold it extreme loss to beat out betamax in the marketplace. betamax still the superior product. Just like tasimo is supirior to Keurig but lost on price.
happy you got it!
Forget lithium ion batteries get a redflow zinc bromide flow battery they're made in Australia I'm waiting for them to be available in America.
interesting!
I am in Australia....have you any details on them for us Aussies?
The way his mouth moves... it's like he belongs in the Jimmy Neutron universe
lol
Air to Air heat pumps are only effective in climates that don't go below -15c.
The ones we use now on our park models here are good to -30C
@@SimpleTek how?
@@kemaleksi6725 no idea how they work, they just do
@@SimpleTek of course it work.
But how about efficiency? That's the problem of heat pump.
For example if you live in cold weather like -5 or -10 is normal you shouldn't use heat pump because of efficiency. Electric combi with resistant is more reliable with same low efficiency.
Ground to air heat pumps are much more efficient then air to air.
Because of that i asked how it works.
@@kemaleksi6725 seems to be ok so far
Rather popular - The West, Ubiquitous - The East
Ok
automatic ac for greenhouse
tubes can be cheap too
if not, why do you make green houses
tubes are cheaper, only someone has to be paid, when they dont
solar heat + peltier, to combine both, its simple
copper for the win
what do you mean electric heaters aren't efficient? they convert 100% of the electricity to heat.
cost efficient - electric heaters are VERY expensive to run with on grid power in most locations
Still the problem with PV is storage! Without a conventional power generation plant to act as a battery PV is useless. You can use the lithium batteries, but the cost to store the energy is ridiculous. Ten to fifteen thousand dollars to store enough energy for a small house and you have replace them every eight to ten years. Look at the Tesla power wall, about sixteen thousand dollars Canadian to store $1.00 worth of electricity. You can give me the electricity free, I can’t afford to store it!
You never mentioned life cycle. Solar thermal had a better service life. Chess Cheap Chinese solar panels dont last.
that's somewhat questionable, but for the most part I'd agree with you there. The evacuated tube systems are mostly Chinese too.
@@SimpleTek also the average lithium battery might get 5000 charge cycles. To have a battery that will last a lifetime you need over 30000 charge cycles.
@@dgreen341 good point
@@dgreen341 Who has anything that lasts a lifetime? That is not a valid criterion.
@@dgreen341 I believe the 5000 cycles is based on 80% DoD, going from 90% to 10% every day. That certainly won't happen, large parts of the year the heat pump isn't running at all. 5000 cycles could easily last 20+ years.