They had it right with Third Reich. The complexity was the turnoff. Those that were willing to take the time to learn it, however, found a strategic depth and excitement that kept me and my friends coming back to play it again and again.
I was surprised to see my Favourite Avalon hill game at number 1, since I've seen so many people trashing it. I Loved it when I bought it in 73, and I still love it today, you feel the grind and attrition of the Italian campaign. Wish I could find someone to play it now, or even a serious video of a playthrough with 2 players. But sadly, we live in a different age, people do not sit across the table pushing cardboard pieces around anymore.
Glad you enjoyed it! I have been putting together a history of Avalon Hill - here is Episode 1 if you are interested: th-cam.com/video/7-l83XaTLgw/w-d-xo.html
My first avalon hill game was The Stock Market game which I received as a gift back in 1980. In 1981 I bought Origins of WW2 in a Tokyo Daimaru(I made a mistake should have bought Napoleon), and Samurai( in a Osaka Matusukaya dept. store. Then in 1983 bought Dune Ameoba wars and Mystic Wood from a Hong Kong Sogo department store. Yah those were the days where the toy section was full of avalon hill games. Its only in the past ten years which I bought Kingmaker, Machiavelli, Acquire, Air Assault on Crete(signed by the Designer), Blackbeard, Dark Emperor, Starship Troopers, Geronimo, Source of the nile, War at sea, Victory in the Pacific, War and Peace(forgot to mention I bought that one in a Vancouver Canada department store, Eaton's I believe in 82).
@@LegendaryTactics yah back int he 80s I remember seeing even SPI TSR and AH products in hallmark gift stores. Macey's toy section, and even some bookstores carried them.
I think I've played 7 of the top ten. To this day if the rule book for a game isn't 30+ 8.5"x11" pages with 6 point type it just doesn't cut it. And the "people" skills learned in arguing & cajoling over the intent and meaning of those rules came in very handy in my corporate life. Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Good times.
Rise and Fall of the Third Reich 1st edition was for you then. Not really 'rules' more like 'guidelines', they were a source of many a argument. WEll, we managed thru a few games, and then got a decent 3rd edition. Many campaigns were fought over a paper Europe.
First of all, I love all your videos. I think the AH had, with their rating system, the customers in mind before the internet and wanted tangible feedback (what areas can we improve). I think particularly 1. ease of understanding (how do I really win, even though I understand the mechanisms i.e. chess) and 2. comprehensive rules (how unambiguous/clear are the rules and how often do we waste time looking them up) where and are important criteria in any game. These aspects are often hidden by the BGGs complexity rating system. I mean COIN games (for example) have problems with 1 (for new players) and most wargame manuals have problems with 2 (sometimes because of convoluted attempts at simulation). Problems in 1, lead to analysis paralysis and problems in 2, lead to a slow discontinuous play where the players are trying to work out what the designer meant (even having to look into the rules section of BGG all the time). AH was on the right track for sure but modern boardgames have lost it. I think the play balance aspect could easily be fixed with adding a kind of handicap system, for example the Germans need to beat the french at the historical level to get an average victory. Balancing is easier than solving 1 or 2, I think. Learning what´s important (1) can be solved by a lot of plays or tutorial scenarios but personally I think dealing with unclear rules (2) is by far the worst.
Yes, I agree with what you say here. It's interesting in that they don't provide any definitions as to what they mean by these categories. And I agree that dealing with unclear rules is the worst - I am fine with complexity, but not incompleteness.
We do our best! We really think that board game coverage can be innovative, and so that's what we try to do! Thanks for your kind words and for watching!
This brings back so many fond memories of my childhood. A hobby shop 30 minutes drive by car was an often destination. I was fortunate to buy or get gifted a number of the games featured in this video (which I still retain). I can only imagine all the great games they had there that I passed over either due to limited purchasing power or general lack of awareness of how good they were. I wish I had a do over for my purchase of Kriegspiel instead of Anzio. What was I thinking?!?
I have played most of those. That brings back memories. My favorite AH games (and some may have been out after 75) are Russian Campaign, Wooden Ships & Iron Men, Panzer Blitz, Circus Maximus, Victory in the Pacific, and Caesar Alesia. Their Blitzkrieg was the first game I ever owned.
I play newer games now mainly do to our group. But I love me some Avalon Hill games and have many of the essentials. Lol Recently I ordered Vol 14: 1-6 of the General magazine because of there articles on "The Russian Campaign" found another on 2 player "Rail baron cool huh" it's been a blast from the past.. Now I'm reading a piece on "Caesar at Alesia" A game I own and now ready to play it with my Son. Just wanted to share a little life story thanks for reading this. Love the list !!
It is interesting that in 1975 a lot of games that still are remembered fondly were all active: Panzerblitz, 3rd Reich, Midway, Panzer Leader, but was surprised by Anzio.
Yes, I'm sure it was challenging! There's nothing quite like knocking over a stack or two of counters and having them start a domino effect. Or if someone bumps the table...
@@LegendaryTactics Really #1 was the only one I noticed the first time though. Just happened to be looking at the right place at the right time. Strange that that's #1 because I'm not led to believe it has aged very well.
And there were constant revisions of the rules. I think my copy of Squad Leader was the fourth edition rule book. The General magazine had a Q&A section in every issue where reader questions about rules were printed to help us out.
I think feedback in S&T was already providing a hot games list in each issue by this point that covered more companies than just the publisher SPI's games.
That's interesting! The only challenge is that it seems that back issues of S&T, or really any information at all, is so hard to find. I would love to cover more stuff about S&T and SPI, but that is the challenge I'm having.
In addition to computer games as Legendary Tactics mentioned, I think the RPG games, specifically D&D had a huge negative effect on the war games. I can remember going into the local hobby shop that my brother and I frequented one day around 1979 or 1980 and it being all RPG games and miniatures. Our beloved war games had been regulated to a small area in the back. The end was neigh.
The Third Reich was the first game I ever purchased back in 1975; I was fifteen years old at the time. Four other games in this so-called top ten I also purchased after The Third Reich. And despite what others may have thought of them, I didn’t care for them at all because I saw them as a step down. It wasn’t until the “Fleet” games from Victory Games came out did I get excited about board games again. “The Longest Day” was the only other Avalon Hill game published that may have come close to The Third Reich in grandeur.
Yes, I sometimes give it a glance just to see what's going on, and not much more. But trust me, there are lots of people that do pay attention to it...perhaps too much!
Midway is the game Battleship would have loved to be. Many of Avalon Hill's games seemed one-sided due to the fact most of these situations were. France 1940 gave you many different ways to equalize the game by assuming for example, if the French hadn't built the Maginot line but instead concentrated their efforts on armor.
@@LegendaryTactics Honestly I think it would be Tobruk. I've had it since 75 and it is just so in-depth. I left a comment under your top ten AH games. 👍
Definite thumbs up for Panzer Leader. But Third Reich and 1776 cost me many many hours. Third Reich was one of those games - there were many others - where you'd go through the rules very carefully and decide what they meant before you started the game. Anyway, we played the 1942 scenario and I even one once on the German side - took some good rolls. I teach and write military history for a living. If I was going to point at one game that really reproduced the strategic dynamic of a conflict it would be 1776. To win, the Brit has to occupy (I think) 10 out of the 12 strategic points on the board. Even though the Brit starts with a huge stack of paper units, and absolute freedom of the sea, he's very quickly faced with a problem. If he wants to occupy all of those points, he has to have some very weak positions - which the Rebel pounces on. Think Trenton, Saratoga and Yorktown. To make matters more interesting, when the British army goes into an area, the rebels get extra militia troops - far more than the Brit gets tories. Think of the Tory-Brit catastrophe in the south in 1780-81. Anyway, my opponent was a war game vet (a fellow grad student - he was in math) and we each played both sides three times. The King's forces never came close. The good old days.
I pretty much played all those game. Played Anzio with Dave Hughes in the early '90's at his inlaws house....a bunch of kids started watching us so Dave Farted and they all ran...
I don't have any idea why they would include "play balance" in judging battles that were one-sided. What did they expect? Yes, I did play these games too.
Yeah, it's a little strange. I guess you could always adjust the victory conditions so the weaker side wins if they don't lose too badly. But it was part of their criteria!
Third Reich was a bear of game, fun, but I don't think we ever finished a round of it. You could play 4-6 hours and be about half-way though. Richtofen's War was quick fun, good game. Battle of the Bulge should be higher . Gettysburg, when playing with the intermediate rules was one of the best AH games ever , surprised it was low on the list , but it was an old game then, and good luck if you ever tried the advanced rules for that game. Maybe the basic game rules , which were simple, and the advanced rules hurt its rating. Midway was my first game, got it about 1974 from my dad , I was 8. It is alright , though as noted, unbalanced. Panzer Leader was agame we played early 80;s good game, and yea better than Panzerblitz, IMO. D-Day was alright Surprised to see Tactics II missing. Never played Anzio, but I suspect some of it high ranking was the result of AH putting out a new edition in 74, and had been pushing it in The General and though number of copies to retailers. I have seen the game Anzio set-up , and to tell the truth it looked "ugly" , the board color and the pieces made it look like " colorful vomit with chunks". Saw Kriegspeil in the stores, I don't think anybody bought it. I knew. AH said it was a beginner game with no dice, so it seemed a little weird and beneath us . Now , years later early 2000's I played a real "Kreigspeil" version online as a MMORTS, called TRAVIAN , now that was an intense endeavor. And people would literally spend $100's-$1000's on one round which lasted about 3-4 months (and it was REAL time and ran constantly ! miss a day or two, and you were screwed unless you allow another player to run your forces.! LOL AH Kreigspeil was adopted from "Kreilspeil" a real-time Prussian Staff Army Wargame/ map exercise from 1811 , and the first strategic wargame made. The Prussia Army version on paper is still played and there is great article on wiki about it. Note: probably all these games and almost all AH games are on Tabletop simulator. But I can't play "board-games" online, they are missing the "atmosphere" of face to face war-gaming . And me rolling real dice and kicking butt ! LOL
Battle of the Bulge was number 13 on the list, with a cumulative value of 3.21. Gettysburg was at number 17, with a value of 3.88, although it is hard to know which edition they were reviewing - Gettysburg was completely reworked with each edition. "Colorful vomit with chunks" is a great saying - I may steal that for future use sometime. That's interesting about Kreigspeil - I will look that up and perhaps do a video on it. I know Shaw needed a quick game because Jim Dunnigan couldn't make a deadline, and he threw it together pretty fast. It makes sense that there was some ready-made inspiration for it. Thanks for the heads-up!
@@LegendaryTactics Check in the back of an issue of Strategy and Tactics.... A vid on how SPI appeared and relation to AH might be nice. Thanks for a great channel btw.
@@LegendaryTactics compared to the tedious complexity of many (nearly ALL 😄) AH and SPI games, where you may spend an hour or more learning the game, Kriegspiel could be learned very quickly. It’s conflict resolution was quite simple: you had (I believe it was - it has been over 40 years 😉) four options in a situation, as did your opponent. These were printed on cards. You would select your response at the same time as your adversary and then reveal them simultaneously. The intersection of the two determined the outcome. It was nice not to have to roll dice. You, by prudent selection, could have more influence on the outcome than in a standard game. And, even though the game was a stylization and abstraction of WW2, you could use nuclear weapons throughout the game. A fun game and an ideal game for someone who may lack the patience for a slog through a thick rules manual. ☺️
The original D-Day (without an air power component) I could win every single time as the German by ruthlessly retreating ever single static division (1-2-2) every move to the fortified line to Germany. I use the rest of the German army to screen the retreat. No penalty for moral, abandoned equipment, allied air power being stationed closer and closer to Germany, abandonment of agricultural and industrial resources. But I did love love love that game.
I know! It was a surprise to see it there. I think it was there mainly because it had a re-release the year before, and so it was a beneficiary of the "cult of the new" that still affects board gamers to this day...
I rate Fun as the most important factor. My top 3 would be Stalingrad, Midway and Afrika Korps. Panzerblitz was good but Squad Leader was what I was dreaming of at the time. Anzio, meh. 1776, meh. Third Reich looked good but I never played it much. France 1940, meh. I thought Richthofen's War campaign was awesome. Maybe top 3 material.
Richthofen's War was the first game I picked up as a kid. I recall saving up my allowance so I could buy it for the whopping price of $7.99. Loved that game. Still have it on a shelf but haven't played in ages.
I enjoyed the list I have everything on it. I was surprised by some. Every time I think of Chancellorsville I think of General Hooker, Because of him we no prostitutes as hookers. (He used to bring ladies with to battles and that's hookers got there name). I do like Panzer Blitz better the Leader. Panzer Blitz was the transition from the AH now know as the classic series to more complex games, I can remember It came out and was shocked by the rules no more 4 pages. Silhouettes on the counters and Geomorphic game boards. It felt to me like a miniatures game. Anzio I think is on the 6th edition rules
They had it right with Third Reich. The complexity was the turnoff. Those that were willing to take the time to learn it, however, found a strategic depth and excitement that kept me and my friends coming back to play it again and again.
AH's Tournament Games were fantastic.
I loved it.
Hours and hours I played Richthofen's war.
I was surprised to see my Favourite Avalon hill game at number 1, since I've seen so many people trashing it.
I Loved it when I bought it in 73, and I still love it today, you feel the grind and attrition of the Italian campaign.
Wish I could find someone to play it now, or even a serious video of a playthrough with 2 players.
But sadly, we live in a different age, people do not sit across the table pushing cardboard pieces around anymore.
Panzer Blitz was my first introduction to Avalon Hill as a kid - we had no idea what we were doing. Panzer Leader is still on my game shelf.
Do you think Panzer Leader is the superior game?
That was the first for me as well. It was a tough one to start out with.
@@LegendaryTactics I think Panzer Leader was better - i think they refined some of the rules to make it clearer.
PanzerBlitz - where we all learned NATO unit symbols.
This takes me back to the early 70s when I cut my teeth on wargames. My three brothers and I played these and many more. Love the memories. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it! I have been putting together a history of Avalon Hill - here is Episode 1 if you are interested: th-cam.com/video/7-l83XaTLgw/w-d-xo.html
I remember the post cards that games in that time period had. There were check-off boxes.
Yes, I believe so!
My first avalon hill game was The Stock Market game which I received as a gift back in 1980. In 1981 I bought Origins of WW2 in a Tokyo Daimaru(I made a mistake should have bought Napoleon), and Samurai( in a Osaka Matusukaya dept. store. Then in 1983 bought Dune Ameoba wars and Mystic Wood from a Hong Kong Sogo department store. Yah those were the days where the toy section was full of avalon hill games. Its only in the past ten years which I bought Kingmaker, Machiavelli, Acquire, Air Assault on Crete(signed by the Designer), Blackbeard, Dark Emperor, Starship Troopers, Geronimo, Source of the nile, War at sea, Victory in the Pacific, War and Peace(forgot to mention I bought that one in a Vancouver Canada department store, Eaton's I believe in 82).
Wow! That's awesome! I don't think I ever personally saw the the games in stores, but I lived in the countryside. Which one was your favorite?
@@LegendaryTactics of the ones I bought my faves are: Dune, KIngmaker, Samurai, Ameoba wars, Acquire, Victory in the Pacific , War At Sea.
@@LegendaryTactics yah back int he 80s I remember seeing even SPI TSR and AH products in hallmark gift stores. Macey's toy section, and even some bookstores carried them.
I think I've played 7 of the top ten. To this day if the rule book for a game isn't 30+ 8.5"x11" pages with 6 point type it just doesn't cut it. And the "people" skills learned in arguing & cajoling over the intent and meaning of those rules came in very handy in my corporate life. Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Good times.
You are welcome, and thanks for watching! It's excellent that all that time invested in gaming led to some transferable skills LOL
Rise and Fall of the Third Reich 1st edition was for you then. Not really 'rules' more like 'guidelines', they were a source of many a argument. WEll, we managed thru a few games, and then got a decent 3rd edition. Many campaigns were fought over a paper Europe.
First of all, I love all your videos.
I think the AH had, with their rating system, the customers in mind before the internet and wanted tangible feedback (what areas can we improve). I think particularly 1. ease of understanding (how do I really win, even though I understand the mechanisms i.e. chess) and 2. comprehensive rules (how unambiguous/clear are the rules and how often do we waste time looking them up) where and are important criteria in any game. These aspects are often hidden by the BGGs complexity rating system. I mean COIN games (for example) have problems with 1 (for new players) and most wargame manuals have problems with 2 (sometimes because of convoluted attempts at simulation). Problems in 1, lead to analysis paralysis and problems in 2, lead to a slow discontinuous play where the players are trying to work out what the designer meant (even having to look into the rules section of BGG all the time). AH was on the right track for sure but modern boardgames have lost it. I think the play balance aspect could easily be fixed with adding a kind of handicap system, for example the Germans need to beat the french at the historical level to get an average victory. Balancing is easier than solving 1 or 2, I think. Learning what´s important (1) can be solved by a lot of plays or tutorial scenarios but personally I think dealing with unclear rules (2) is by far the worst.
Yes, I agree with what you say here. It's interesting in that they don't provide any definitions as to what they mean by these categories. And I agree that dealing with unclear rules is the worst - I am fine with complexity, but not incompleteness.
I absolutely love how you guys keep putting out not just new videos (like anybody else), but new ideas. Kudos!
We do our best! We really think that board game coverage can be innovative, and so that's what we try to do! Thanks for your kind words and for watching!
This brings back so many fond memories of my childhood. A hobby shop 30 minutes drive by car was an often destination. I was fortunate to buy or get gifted a number of the games featured in this video (which I still retain). I can only imagine all the great games they had there that I passed over either due to limited purchasing power or general lack of awareness of how good they were. I wish I had a do over for my purchase of Kriegspiel instead of Anzio. What was I thinking?!?
I have played most of those. That brings back memories.
My favorite AH games (and some may have been out after 75) are Russian Campaign, Wooden Ships & Iron Men, Panzer Blitz, Circus Maximus, Victory in the Pacific, and Caesar Alesia. Their Blitzkrieg was the first game I ever owned.
If you had to take one to a desert island, which would it be?
I'm ashamed to admit I've played all of them, and wish I still could.
Great video. I had and played all but one of these. Still own 3 of them. Great stuff
Awesome! Thanks for watching! What would be your Top 10?
I play newer games now mainly do to our group.
But I love me some Avalon Hill games and have many of the essentials. Lol
Recently I ordered Vol 14: 1-6 of the General magazine because of there articles on "The Russian Campaign" found another on 2 player "Rail baron cool huh" it's been a blast from the past.. Now I'm reading a piece on "Caesar at Alesia" A game I own and now ready to play it with my Son. Just wanted to share a little life story thanks for reading this. Love the list !!
And we appreciate it! Thanks for sharing! If you had to pick one, what would be your favorite?
I think the Russian Campaign would be the one but that could change I certainly love the Ancient world.
It is interesting that in 1975 a lot of games that still are remembered fondly were all active: Panzerblitz, 3rd Reich, Midway, Panzer Leader, but was surprised by Anzio.
At the time, Panzerblitz was only 5 years old, and Panzer Leader & 3rd Reich had come out only the year before. Anzio surprised me as well
This list reflects my gaming world as a 15 year old. Very nostalgic!
Awesome! Glad to bring back some memories for you!
I agree with Bob K...although Squad Leader wasn't out yet for this rating chart. Squad Leader was the most intense FtoF game in the '70's.
Yes, it is an amazing game, but it came out two years after this list was published...
There it is! My favorite AH game Anzio. I'll need to check out the new one you suggested.
The number one game on the oldest hotness list! What made it your favorite?
Mine also, in the 70's I must have played thousands of games of Anzio, wish I could now.
I played so much Panzerblitz in the late 80s. But keeping up with all those chits is the killer problem.
Yes, I'm sure it was challenging! There's nothing quite like knocking over a stack or two of counters and having them start a domino effect. Or if someone bumps the table...
I didn't have to guess because you showed the whole list in the General near the beginning of the video :D
Haha, I know, I was hoping it was too fast for people to read...
@@LegendaryTactics Really #1 was the only one I noticed the first time though. Just happened to be looking at the right place at the right time. Strange that that's #1 because I'm not led to believe it has aged very well.
It's interesting that the ease of understanding category consistently came in lagging the benchmark results.
Yes, Avalon Hill's games were not known for their ease of understanding, especially by the standards of the time.
And there were constant revisions of the rules. I think my copy of Squad Leader was the fourth edition rule book. The General magazine had a Q&A section in every issue where reader questions about rules were printed to help us out.
I think feedback in S&T was already providing a hot games list in each issue by this point that covered more companies than just the publisher SPI's games.
That's interesting! The only challenge is that it seems that back issues of S&T, or really any information at all, is so hard to find. I would love to cover more stuff about S&T and SPI, but that is the challenge I'm having.
Ceasar of alexia needs to be reprinted with larger counters and larger map
That one always looked interesting to me! I wonder if another publisher will pick it up at some point?
love these kinds of historical video looking back at the history of this hobby. when did wargames stop being so dominant in the US?
About the time computers became affordable for the average family. Computer games took over from there, sadly.
In addition to computer games as Legendary Tactics mentioned, I think the RPG games, specifically D&D had a huge negative effect on the war games. I can remember going into the local hobby shop that my brother and I frequented one day around 1979 or 1980 and it being all RPG games and miniatures. Our beloved war games had been regulated to a small area in the back. The end was neigh.
The Third Reich was the first game I ever purchased back in 1975; I was fifteen years old at the time. Four other games in this so-called top ten I also purchased after The Third Reich. And despite what others may have thought of them, I didn’t care for them at all because I saw them as a step down. It wasn’t until the “Fleet” games from Victory Games came out did I get excited about board games again. “The Longest Day” was the only other Avalon Hill game published that may have come close to The Third Reich in grandeur.
Wow, you don't mess around - those are all big games! And yes, the cutting edge evolves over time, that's for sure
Hmm.. if there's one thing I pay no attention to on BGG, it's the hotness list.
Yes, I sometimes give it a glance just to see what's going on, and not much more. But trust me, there are lots of people that do pay attention to it...perhaps too much!
Awesome!
Thank you for watching!
What did they mean by physical quality as opposed to components and mapboard?
That's a great question - they never explain it. Perhaps it has to do with the artwork vs the quality of the cardboard used, etc.?
Midway is the game Battleship would have loved to be. Many of Avalon Hill's games seemed one-sided due to the fact most of these situations were. France 1940 gave you many different ways to equalize the game by assuming for example, if the French hadn't built the Maginot line but instead concentrated their efforts on armor.
Yes, and that's the fascination - reliving history and seeing what might have been. Do you have a favorite game?
@@LegendaryTactics Honestly I think it would be Tobruk. I've had it since 75 and it is just so in-depth. I left a comment under your top ten AH games. 👍
Definite thumbs up for Panzer Leader. But Third Reich and 1776 cost me many many hours. Third Reich was one of those games - there were many others - where you'd go through the rules very carefully and decide what they meant before you started the game. Anyway, we played the 1942 scenario and I even one once on the German side - took some good rolls.
I teach and write military history for a living. If I was going to point at one game that really reproduced the strategic dynamic of a conflict it would be 1776. To win, the Brit has to occupy (I think) 10 out of the 12 strategic points on the board. Even though the Brit starts with a huge stack of paper units, and absolute freedom of the sea, he's very quickly faced with a problem. If he wants to occupy all of those points, he has to have some very weak positions - which the Rebel pounces on. Think Trenton, Saratoga and Yorktown. To make matters more interesting, when the British army goes into an area, the rebels get extra militia troops - far more than the Brit gets tories. Think of the Tory-Brit catastrophe in the south in 1780-81. Anyway, my opponent was a war game vet (a fellow grad student - he was in math) and we each played both sides three times. The King's forces never came close. The good old days.
I wonder if the play balance could have used some work? But it sounds like you got some great memories out of it!
I pretty much played all those game. Played Anzio with Dave Hughes in the early '90's at his inlaws house....a bunch of kids started watching us so Dave Farted and they all ran...
Ha ha ha!
I don't have any idea why they would include "play balance" in judging battles that were one-sided. What did they expect? Yes, I did play these games too.
Yeah, it's a little strange. I guess you could always adjust the victory conditions so the weaker side wins if they don't lose too badly. But it was part of their criteria!
@@LegendaryTactics or just play checkers :)
Third Reich was a bear of game, fun, but I don't think we ever finished a round of it. You could play 4-6 hours and be about half-way though. Richtofen's War was quick fun, good game.
Battle of the Bulge should be higher .
Gettysburg, when playing with the intermediate rules was one of the best AH games ever , surprised it was low on the list , but it was an old game then, and good luck if you ever tried the advanced rules for that game. Maybe the basic game rules , which were simple, and the advanced rules hurt its rating.
Midway was my first game, got it about 1974 from my dad , I was 8. It is alright , though as noted, unbalanced.
Panzer Leader was agame we played early 80;s good game, and yea better than Panzerblitz, IMO.
D-Day was alright
Surprised to see Tactics II missing.
Never played Anzio, but I suspect some of it high ranking was the result of AH putting out a new edition in 74, and had been pushing it in The General and though number of copies to retailers. I have seen the game Anzio set-up , and to tell the truth it looked "ugly" , the board color and the pieces made it look like " colorful vomit with chunks".
Saw Kriegspeil in the stores, I don't think anybody bought it. I knew. AH said it was a beginner game with no dice, so it seemed a little weird and beneath us . Now , years later early 2000's I played a real "Kreigspeil" version online as a MMORTS, called TRAVIAN , now that was an intense endeavor. And people would literally spend $100's-$1000's on one round which lasted about 3-4 months (and it was REAL time and ran constantly ! miss a day or two, and you were screwed unless you allow another player to run your forces.! LOL
AH Kreigspeil was adopted from "Kreilspeil" a real-time Prussian Staff Army Wargame/ map exercise from 1811 , and the first strategic wargame made.
The Prussia Army version on paper is still played and there is great article on wiki about it.
Note: probably all these games and almost all AH games are on Tabletop simulator. But I can't play "board-games" online, they are missing the "atmosphere" of face to face war-gaming . And me rolling real dice and kicking butt ! LOL
Battle of the Bulge was number 13 on the list, with a cumulative value of 3.21. Gettysburg was at number 17, with a value of 3.88, although it is hard to know which edition they were reviewing - Gettysburg was completely reworked with each edition.
"Colorful vomit with chunks" is a great saying - I may steal that for future use sometime.
That's interesting about Kreigspeil - I will look that up and perhaps do a video on it. I know Shaw needed a quick game because Jim Dunnigan couldn't make a deadline, and he threw it together pretty fast. It makes sense that there was some ready-made inspiration for it. Thanks for the heads-up!
I liked Kriegspiel.
Yes, I think it sold reasonably well, and it certainly has its fans!
As a kid:
Panzer Leader - What? The Germans used horses?
Third Reich - Not that hard to learn. Get your BRPs!
Haha, nice!
SPI did this from the start?
They might have, and likely did! I don't know for sure, as I haven't looked into it yet. Perhaps AH got the idea from them.
@@LegendaryTactics Check in the back of an issue of Strategy and Tactics.... A vid on how SPI appeared and relation to AH might be nice. Thanks for a great channel btw.
IIRC, SPI compared games from multiple publishers whereas the General only rated AH games
I once owned 1-5, 9 and 10...and have played all but #18.
Wow, that's great! I wish I could say the same, but I didn't even discover Avalon Hill until 1987
I loved Kriegspiel! It was great fun! It played quickly and there were no dice used to play. 😃
Yes, I know it has its fans! Glad to hear you enjoyed it! What aspect did you enjoy the most?
@@LegendaryTactics compared to the tedious complexity of many (nearly ALL 😄) AH and SPI games, where you may spend an hour or more learning the game, Kriegspiel could be learned very quickly. It’s conflict resolution was quite simple: you had (I believe it was - it has been over 40 years 😉) four options in a situation, as did your opponent. These were printed on cards. You would select your response at the same time as your adversary and then reveal them simultaneously. The intersection of the two determined the outcome. It was nice not to have to roll dice. You, by prudent selection, could have more influence on the outcome than in a standard game. And, even though the game was a stylization and abstraction of WW2, you could use nuclear weapons throughout the game. A fun game and an ideal game for someone who may lack the patience for a slog through a thick rules manual. ☺️
The original D-Day (without an air power component) I could win every single time as the German by ruthlessly retreating ever single static division (1-2-2) every move to the fortified line to Germany. I use the rest of the German army to screen the retreat. No penalty for moral, abandoned equipment, allied air power being stationed closer and closer to Germany, abandonment of agricultural and industrial resources. But I did love love love that game.
Haha, I just acquired a hard copy of that game - I will have to try that strategy!
Anzio? I never knew anyone that owned it or played it.
I know! It was a surprise to see it there. I think it was there mainly because it had a re-release the year before, and so it was a beneficiary of the "cult of the new" that still affects board gamers to this day...
The first edition had a ugly box. A good box could sell a game. A great box was Jutland.
I agree. Nobody I knew back in the 70’s/80’s had it. I played it and absolutely hated. The game played like the actual campaign - frustrating slow.
When will you be finishing up your history of Avalon Hill?
Part 3 should be done next week. It's a combination of the research involved and the fact that I am easily distracted :)
I rate Fun as the most important factor. My top 3 would be Stalingrad, Midway and Afrika Korps. Panzerblitz was good but Squad Leader was what I was dreaming of at the time. Anzio, meh. 1776, meh. Third Reich looked good but I never played it much. France 1940, meh. I thought Richthofen's War campaign was awesome. Maybe top 3 material.
Yes, you can't go wrong with fun as a factor, and it is kind of funny that they left it off their list of criteria.
@@LegendaryTactics Isn't fun incorporated into the excitement factor?
Richthofen`s War was easy and fun to play !
I would like to try it someday!
If I still have it it's yours.
Richthofen's War was the first game I picked up as a kid. I recall saving up my allowance so I could buy it for the whopping price of $7.99. Loved that game. Still have it on a shelf but haven't played in ages.
I enjoyed the list I have everything on it. I was surprised by some. Every time I think of Chancellorsville I think of General Hooker, Because of him we no prostitutes as hookers. (He used to bring ladies with to battles and that's hookers got there name). I do like Panzer Blitz better the Leader. Panzer Blitz was the transition from the AH now know as the classic series to more complex games, I can remember It came out and was shocked by the rules no more 4 pages. Silhouettes on the counters and Geomorphic game boards. It felt to me like a miniatures game. Anzio I think is on the 6th edition rules
Please don't mention BGG as they suck because they censor everything and hate wargames.