I had this exact problem when trying to choose a tire last year. I wanted something "supple" but also something that wouldn't make me feel like I was doing extra work to keep momentum (I'm not a roadie but I do like efficiency). Ended up going with the Pirelli Cinturato Gravel H, size 70x45 (they also make 650b versions). The extra width gives the cushion I was looking for and the low profile tread enables me to keep speed on both pavement and gravel. Only down side is anything sandy or mucky and you'd have trouble finding traction...which is a fair trade-off in Arizona but maybe not other places. Keep up the good work and thanks for the videos!
This may be a confounding factor, but I’m pretty certain rolling-resistance wise the RH knobbies are faster than UD Rose. So both going down a size and improving to a faster tire probably made it feel a lot faster!
Like you touched on a little bit, weight and tread has a huge impact on how fast a tire feels. I run a 700c wheelset with 45 cinturatto hards, and a 650b wheelset with 2.0 panaracer quasimotos. The fatter 650bs feel a touch slower on pavement, but I still used them for the 200mile cross florida ride a couple of years ago and finished in the second group at about 12 hours of riding time. The 700x45 cinturattos have a semi slick, fish scale tread down the center, and it's super fast on pavement and harder trails, essentially anything that doesn't require tread to bite down physically for traction. I've used that to finish in the first group of races with guys running anywhere from 40-44 tires. Especially given your height, I think you'd really like 700x44ish tires.
you are right about tyres being expensive...... Rene Herse tyres cost between $85 - 100 USD here in Australia. Super boutique. Personally I run 42mm WTB Resolutes on my 29" wheels. I'd go bigger if I could but my gravel/bikepacking rig uses a Salsa cyclocross frame & 42mm is the biggest I can fit in the frame.
I run an ATB which is capable of 2.5in tires and hybrid geometry that skews toward trail riding. But I also ride a Surly Big Dummy with 60s on the front and back. That thing can sprint up to 30mph with avg pace around 12mph. With uo to 100 lbs of additional gear.
I find tire weight really affect the feel as well. The RH 42s are probably a bit lighter than the UD 48s. And that RH tread is apparently amazing. I haven’t had the change to ride either though.
This is close to home . I've been riding an aluminum frame CX bike the last three years as my 'gravel' bike. Its had those 42mm RH tires on it from the start. (I've been using RH slicks on my road recumbent for years) Its all I knew for dirt, and it worked. I took it on some extra chunky forest service "roads" to riding pavement around town to get to the local dirt. It was fun at high speeds, with just the right amount of slide to keep things interesting. I could tell they were slow on pavement, but I also ran them extra low pressure just to get some cushion in the dirt (usually around 24psi, probably should've been around 32psi) Just a week ago I picked up my new bike, a custom steel frame Mahall with Lauf fork; riding on 650b wheels. Currently have those set up with more Rene Herse tires, a 55 front 48 rear. (though they measure out to 50/47, so not too different) With the extra volume (and the fork, and the eesilk seatpost) giving me the cushion, I have these at the 'proper' pressure, more around 28-30psi. And ya know... I'm faster on the new bike at the same power output. 0.5 to 1.0 mph faster on a good dirt road. But on pavement, it definitely feels slower. Not sure it is, haven't measured yet, but it sure feels like it. I'll be keeping the old CX bike, probably putting 42mm RH slicks on it for 'road' use around town, but still totally manageable on the canal roads around here.
I run Maxxis DTH 2.3 x 26” on my “gravel bike” (modded Y2K hardtail with drop bars). The DTHs are a slick with some grooves. The bike is a champ off-road but feels a bit sluggish on pavement. I think most of the sluggish feeling comes from the fact it doesn’t like to turn due to the high pneumatic trail of the wide tires at 25 psi. I like how comfortable it is on the pavement.
For mixed surface. As wide and as low a psi as safely possible. I have 45mm maxxiss Ramblers on one 42 mm specialized pros and 45mm Schwalbe allrounds. Im about 220lbs run at around 30psi.
I"m on pirelli gravel M tires, 650b x 47. Supple ride :) Holding up well in winter slushy conditions, looking forward to gravel and hardpack singletrack rides with them.
Hell yeah, all about the motor. On my gravel bike I run the panaracer gravel king smooth in 38 something 😂 wide. I just don't get crazy aggressive railing burms and cutting corners on gravel
I used 50mm for a few rides on muddy roads, and they were cushy and rode very well, but I went back to 42mm mostly because they work perfectly fine on the roads I ride most often (I've still got the 50s because you never know).
Heya Hannah. I think the René Herse is faster because of the patented knob design not because of the width. It would be cool to try their wider knobbies and see. They are certainly very fast for the very fast rider engines like Lauren de Crescenzo, Lael Wilcox and Ted King will attest. I have recently changed to 700C x 44mm Snoqualmie Pass tires for my Kona Sutra Touring Bike. They are both super stable, supple and fast! Thanks for the insightful reflective video!
It’s always a balance , speed or traction. Which is more important. It can change depending on the route you are taking. I know this is no help it is just a compromise at best . BTW really like your glasses !!
I run 40c . It depends where you live . I am in UK so we don't have a network of gravel roads like the USA. I like bike to be fast on tarmac and off road so 50 /50 of each . I find 40c perfect for this 42 is also good. If wanted anything bigger I would take the mountain bike . I like my gravel bike to be like a road bike with off road potential. Everyone is different. Great video.
Coming from riding a fast road bike with 23mm tires, I first thought the 48mm on my gravel bike would make me slow and was overkill. After riding a bunch of gravel as well as a lot of poorly maintained roads, I am much more comfortable with the wider tires and usually willing to sacrifice a bit of speed for comfort.
Would 650x42mm lower the BB enough for pedal strikes to be an issue since Crust optimized it for wider tires? In one of the discord group I'm in, the talk was the UD tires are slower than they look & slower than the RH knobbies in equiv casing. Maybe the 650x48mm RH would have been the more fair comparison? Side note 650x42mm is way less common size than 650x48mm & 700x42mm. Only a few brands make th 650x42mm size, portion of them using Panaracer rubber. My gravel bike was on 29x2.1(max) for a good long while but now making it less XC & more all road with Vittoria Terreno Dry 700x47mm tire front & slicks in a similar size in the back.
Hell ya! I run a 650b front/rear 60/58 with the rear being race oriented and the front being enduro. I love the larger tires because I tend to run both gravel, road and single track. I also love the speed you get out of deep gravel. :)) It's really taxing my quads, but I love the training. It's also worth noting I'm a heavy girl and the extra cushion is required for my riding. I honestly find smaller tires to be very darty and unable to hold momentum like a wider tire can. You also cant hop on much without consequences and in urban cycling the curb hop is the key to safety. (Another reason I cant use an ebike...) Schwalbe Hans Damf (f/p:18/w:60mm) Racing Ralph (r/p:25/w:58mm) Furreal - On road after a hard warmup I can hit 35mph and the wide tires give me so much control. It feels like my old motorcycle.
All other things being equal: * width * suppleness * bead type * tread type * tube/tubeless type * rim width * pressure #whatpressureyourunning * rider/bike weight * ... ... there's also the fact that smaller tires lower your BB in a tiiiiiiiny bit. Like... 2-3mm in your case, but still! Might feel subtly more stable, especially on the road.
Great subject! There are always trade offs, pros and cons. I tried and did not like the Ultradynamico Rosé's at all. Not saying they are bad tires, I just don't need that much tread and weight on the mostly 50/50 pavement/smooth dirt that I ride, they felt really slow and "truck-y" to me. I also gave up on 650b altogether. At 6'1", I don't feel like 650b is proportionately a better size for me than 700's. 700's will always feel faster to me. And with so many nice, wide 700c tires available these days (and frames that will fit them!), there's no reason for me to ride 650b. Currently running Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass standard casing (700x44) on the front and Ultradynamico Cava JFF (700x42.??) on the rear. No real reason for that other than the front still has plenty of tread left and the Cava was next in line when the rear wore out. The Cava feels great and fast as does the Snoqualmie Pass. I think the Cava JFF's at $65 a pop are a pretty good deal. They compare well with the Snoqualmie standard casings which are $74 each and cost more to ship across the country. I am in New York and Ultradynamico's are shipping from Connecticut (I think), which is not far from me at all and cost less altogether to get to me.
Might be that fatter tires feel slower because of the lack of vibration. That said, I run 700x37 and 700x42 wtbs (riddler and resolute) on my budget gravel (kona rove) and funnily enough the 42s feel faster to me!
I feel like you are grappling over a bike that can keep up with other cyclists during a bike ride vs. the intended purpose of having a wider tire. If you're off road, especially on single track, just accept your goal isn't to move fast... Speed is not your friend. You're going to navigate better on the complex terrain with wider tires. I live in MN and bike during the winter. I ride considerably slower with studded tires but enjoy riding on snowy trails and love the quiet environment, and speed definitely friend is not my friend.
Bigger is funner
& more comfy!
Agreed
I had this exact problem when trying to choose a tire last year. I wanted something "supple" but also something that wouldn't make me feel like I was doing extra work to keep momentum (I'm not a roadie but I do like efficiency). Ended up going with the Pirelli Cinturato Gravel H, size 70x45 (they also make 650b versions). The extra width gives the cushion I was looking for and the low profile tread enables me to keep speed on both pavement and gravel. Only down side is anything sandy or mucky and you'd have trouble finding traction...which is a fair trade-off in Arizona but maybe not other places.
Keep up the good work and thanks for the videos!
This may be a confounding factor, but I’m pretty certain rolling-resistance wise the RH knobbies are faster than UD Rose. So both going down a size and improving to a faster tire probably made it feel a lot faster!
Like you touched on a little bit, weight and tread has a huge impact on how fast a tire feels. I run a 700c wheelset with 45 cinturatto hards, and a 650b wheelset with 2.0 panaracer quasimotos. The fatter 650bs feel a touch slower on pavement, but I still used them for the 200mile cross florida ride a couple of years ago and finished in the second group at about 12 hours of riding time. The 700x45 cinturattos have a semi slick, fish scale tread down the center, and it's super fast on pavement and harder trails, essentially anything that doesn't require tread to bite down physically for traction. I've used that to finish in the first group of races with guys running anywhere from 40-44 tires.
Especially given your height, I think you'd really like 700x44ish tires.
you are right about tyres being expensive...... Rene Herse tyres cost between $85 - 100 USD here in Australia. Super boutique. Personally I run 42mm WTB Resolutes on my 29" wheels. I'd go bigger if I could but my gravel/bikepacking rig uses a Salsa cyclocross frame & 42mm is the biggest I can fit in the frame.
Same with Surly tires, it's $100 per tire.
So I just end up using them until they just don't hold air anymore
off topic - love the glasses!
I run 60mm in the front and 58mm in the rear. Super fast and compliant in deep gravel and mud.
I run an ATB which is capable of 2.5in tires and hybrid geometry that skews toward trail riding. But I also ride a Surly Big Dummy with 60s on the front and back. That thing can sprint up to 30mph with avg pace around 12mph. With uo to 100 lbs of additional gear.
I use Pirelli cinturato velo 42 on my Orro gravel bike, ideal for all conditions road, mud and gravel, love your videos
I find tire weight really affect the feel as well. The RH 42s are probably a bit lighter than the UD 48s. And that RH tread is apparently amazing. I haven’t had the change to ride either though.
Chance*
This is close to home . I've been riding an aluminum frame CX bike the last three years as my 'gravel' bike. Its had those 42mm RH tires on it from the start. (I've been using RH slicks on my road recumbent for years) Its all I knew for dirt, and it worked. I took it on some extra chunky forest service "roads" to riding pavement around town to get to the local dirt. It was fun at high speeds, with just the right amount of slide to keep things interesting. I could tell they were slow on pavement, but I also ran them extra low pressure just to get some cushion in the dirt (usually around 24psi, probably should've been around 32psi) Just a week ago I picked up my new bike, a custom steel frame Mahall with Lauf fork; riding on 650b wheels. Currently have those set up with more Rene Herse tires, a 55 front 48 rear. (though they measure out to 50/47, so not too different) With the extra volume (and the fork, and the eesilk seatpost) giving me the cushion, I have these at the 'proper' pressure, more around 28-30psi. And ya know... I'm faster on the new bike at the same power output. 0.5 to 1.0 mph faster on a good dirt road. But on pavement, it definitely feels slower. Not sure it is, haven't measured yet, but it sure feels like it.
I'll be keeping the old CX bike, probably putting 42mm RH slicks on it for 'road' use around town, but still totally manageable on the canal roads around here.
I run Maxxis DTH 2.3 x 26” on my “gravel bike” (modded Y2K hardtail with drop bars). The DTHs are a slick with some grooves. The bike is a champ off-road but feels a bit sluggish on pavement. I think most of the sluggish feeling comes from the fact it doesn’t like to turn due to the high pneumatic trail of the wide tires at 25 psi. I like how comfortable it is on the pavement.
Vibration makes tires feel fast. They aren't actually faster
For mixed surface. As wide and as low a psi as safely possible. I have 45mm maxxiss Ramblers on one 42 mm specialized pros and 45mm Schwalbe allrounds. Im about 220lbs run at around 30psi.
I"m on pirelli gravel M tires, 650b x 47. Supple ride :) Holding up well in winter slushy conditions, looking forward to gravel and hardpack singletrack rides with them.
Hell yeah, all about the motor. On my gravel bike I run the panaracer gravel king smooth in 38 something 😂 wide. I just don't get crazy aggressive railing burms and cutting corners on gravel
I used 50mm for a few rides on muddy roads, and they were cushy and rode very well, but I went back to 42mm mostly because they work perfectly fine on the roads I ride most often (I've still got the 50s because you never know).
Heya Hannah. I think the René Herse is faster because of the patented knob design not because of the width. It would be cool to try their wider knobbies and see. They are certainly very fast for the very fast rider engines like Lauren de Crescenzo, Lael Wilcox and Ted King will attest. I have recently changed to 700C x 44mm Snoqualmie Pass tires for my Kona Sutra Touring Bike. They are both super stable, supple and fast! Thanks for the insightful reflective video!
It’s always a balance , speed or traction. Which is more important. It can change depending on the route you are taking. I know this is no help it is just a compromise at best . BTW really like your glasses !!
I run 40c . It depends where you live . I am in UK so we don't have a network of gravel roads like the USA. I like bike to be fast on tarmac and off road so 50 /50 of each . I find 40c perfect for this 42 is also good. If wanted anything bigger I would take the mountain bike . I like my gravel bike to be like a road bike with off road potential. Everyone is different. Great video.
Coming from riding a fast road bike with 23mm tires, I first thought the 48mm on my gravel bike would make me slow and was overkill. After riding a bunch of gravel as well as a lot of poorly maintained roads, I am much more comfortable with the wider tires and usually willing to sacrifice a bit of speed for comfort.
I miss your content ❤
I would think that the perceived speed is more due to the different tread than the different sizes.
Would 650x42mm lower the BB enough for pedal strikes to be an issue since Crust optimized it for wider tires? In one of the discord group I'm in, the talk was the UD tires are slower than they look & slower than the RH knobbies in equiv casing. Maybe the 650x48mm RH would have been the more fair comparison? Side note 650x42mm is way less common size than 650x48mm & 700x42mm. Only a few brands make th 650x42mm size, portion of them using Panaracer rubber.
My gravel bike was on 29x2.1(max) for a good long while but now making it less XC & more all road with Vittoria Terreno Dry 700x47mm tire front & slicks in a similar size in the back.
I use a knobby 47 on the front and a somewhat slick 42 in the rear. It seems to be a good combination for most of the riding I do
Heretic! Tires gotta match. What's next, a 29 in front and a 27.5 in back? :P
Hell ya! I run a 650b front/rear 60/58 with the rear being race oriented and the front being enduro. I love the larger tires because I tend to run both gravel, road and single track. I also love the speed you get out of deep gravel. :)) It's really taxing my quads, but I love the training.
It's also worth noting I'm a heavy girl and the extra cushion is required for my riding. I honestly find smaller tires to be very darty and unable to hold momentum like a wider tire can. You also cant hop on much without consequences and in urban cycling the curb hop is the key to safety. (Another reason I cant use an ebike...)
Schwalbe Hans Damf (f/p:18/w:60mm) Racing Ralph (r/p:25/w:58mm)
Furreal - On road after a hard warmup I can hit 35mph and the wide tires give me so much control. It feels like my old motorcycle.
All other things being equal:
* width
* suppleness
* bead type
* tread type
* tube/tubeless type
* rim width
* pressure #whatpressureyourunning
* rider/bike weight
* ...
... there's also the fact that smaller tires lower your BB in a tiiiiiiiny bit. Like... 2-3mm in your case, but still! Might feel subtly more stable, especially on the road.
Currently I’m running the pathfinder pro in 700/42.
I want to update to 650b with a 45mm wide tyre.
I ride mostly mtb-ish tracks 😅
I’d go 48. The best way to see which one is better for you is get the same tire in 48 & 42 and go from there.
Switched from 32 to 36. Thinking about 40 but hesitating.
Great subject! There are always trade offs, pros and cons. I tried and did not like the Ultradynamico Rosé's at all. Not saying they are bad tires, I just don't need that much tread and weight on the mostly 50/50 pavement/smooth dirt that I ride, they felt really slow and "truck-y" to me. I also gave up on 650b altogether. At 6'1", I don't feel like 650b is proportionately a better size for me than 700's. 700's will always feel faster to me. And with so many nice, wide 700c tires available these days (and frames that will fit them!), there's no reason for me to ride 650b. Currently running Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass standard casing (700x44) on the front and Ultradynamico Cava JFF (700x42.??) on the rear. No real reason for that other than the front still has plenty of tread left and the Cava was next in line when the rear wore out. The Cava feels great and fast as does the Snoqualmie Pass. I think the Cava JFF's at $65 a pop are a pretty good deal. They compare well with the Snoqualmie standard casings which are $74 each and cost more to ship across the country. I am in New York and Ultradynamico's are shipping from Connecticut (I think), which is not far from me at all and cost less altogether to get to me.
On 650 b i would go big as possible. Rene Herse UMTANUM RIDGE TC 650B X 55 are very good supple and very fast...
You play dumb, but you are spot on. I’m going up to a 43 or 45 from a 40. Comfort is king, but speed is necessary to not get dropped
I never ran anything bigger that 38c 😆 🤣 barely getting into the bigger sizes.
Might be that fatter tires feel slower because of the lack of vibration. That said, I run 700x37 and 700x42 wtbs (riddler and resolute) on my budget gravel (kona rove) and funnily enough the 42s feel faster to me!
in my mind 42mm was more of a 700c tire width
Bigger tires = more comfort & a negligible difference in speed/ rolling resistance.
I feel like you are grappling over a bike that can keep up with other cyclists during a bike ride vs. the intended purpose of having a wider tire. If you're off road, especially on single track, just accept your goal isn't to move fast... Speed is not your friend. You're going to navigate better on the complex terrain with wider tires. I live in MN and bike during the winter. I ride considerably slower with studded tires but enjoy riding on snowy trails and love the quiet environment, and speed definitely friend is not my friend.