The Werewolf: The Apocalypse Fifth Edition Experiment
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ย. 2024
- A vlog 1 month in the making by that sad British goth boy who discusses all things vampiric. This time, we take a look into how The Lore By Night Podcast Guy writes & plans a Werewolf: The Apocalypse Fifth Edition oneshot to solely answer the heavily debated question "How ship is it?"
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I am glad that even though you have been very vocal about your issues with W5 that you are willing to run few more games to give it a fair shake. I am running it myself for my friend player group and we are about 10 sessions and they have enjoyed it so far, but I as the ST also keep running into questions and issues that only have answers so far in Legacy edition. We've homebrewed some of W5 for quality of life and rule of cool considerations but nothing too extensive.
For my Chicago campaign, I took 5 pages of notes outlining character relationships, overarching plots, etc. 30 sessions in I have written a few bullet points about important choices the pcs make.
So after a couple of times running W5, I have to say I agree most of all with the way failure affects the players or takes agency away from them. While I never did mind the way Brutal Outcomes mess with things, I think a LOT of rage mechanics having a chance to fail AFTER the rage check really keeps getting in the way of players having fun.
I would probably house-rule that Losing the Wolf from a failed Rage Check lets you finish what you're doing before turning you back to Homid, or give my players enough Rage through the session so the game doesn't kneecap the player that's been rolling bad all night. Winning at a Cost is ALWAYS more fun than just *Save-or-Suck* mechanics.
There is a LOT of things I think I'm going to have to change or house-rule in order to keep the game from anti-climatically stopping players from doing fun stuff.
Hey if your not a fan of w5 that’s fine but personally think this is by far one of my favourite world of darkness systems I have felt way more like a monster fuelled by rage hunting down creatures of the wyrm an eldritch god of corruption and fighting desperately to make a dent. In w5 then I EVER did in w20
I don’t know they just feel way to restrained and organised in w20
I also really enjoy the idea the the garuo nation is over the tribes are trying their hardest to do their own thing and it allows werewolf to be ran more like vampire a free form pursing your own goals.
But ya I love w5 and have and a blast with it honestly
And that's awesome, I hope you continue to have loads of fun!
I’m going to be starting a W5 campaign here in a few months, using a bunch of house rules and homebrew to fill in as many of the holes that I can. This video and the ones that A Bunch Of Gamers made are quite helpful, thank you
Oh, yeah, I have a similar style of note prep for RPGs. It's really nice to be honest, just being able to run a game with nearly nothing makes me feel so much more confident in it, somehow? I know others locally who write tons of stuff and prep specific dialogue and I just don't get that need. I used to do extensive but even then they were general and heavily vibes based. And then I sat at a table with 3 other GMs and they talked about having giant journals and prepping details and all and I felt weird lol.
I know my players love my games and my prep is light enough i can run multiple different in the same week easily, those others stressed about a lot of stuff and prepping. Hell, I once ran a game for the standard group of one of them and they liked my way better lol (yes, yes Ciara pat yourself on the back about how awesome you are without the person you're comparing yourself to being able to respond.)
That bag looks amazing! I wish I had that when I was running multiple games at my FLGS.
So, TLDR, Don't play vanilla WtA5e. Got it, buddy. But, let's be honest, it's no surprise how bad it is... But mechanically it's a hit or miss depending on the individual in question who can understand it all.
You're telling me when that one player felt peeved about entering Frenzy, you didn't follow the "great advice" from the W5 corebook on page 139: "The werewolf cannot themselves use Gifts, however, and must keep acting out frenzy, or the player must yield control of the character to the Storyteller." According to the W5 corebook you should've taken the player's character-sheet away and played the character for them in response to their negative reaction... Man, imagine even thinking of putting this in writing in the year 2023 when collaborative play at least to some degree is considered the norm🤣...
In regards to Willpower, you have to also consider: Imagine if this had taken place in the Umbra. There, every scene after the first you also have to spent 1 WP or suffer 1 Aggravated damage. I don't even know how it would even possible for Garou to enter the Umbra and fight there, let alone fight there using their Crinos Form.
And you had a player "lose their wolf" at a bad time... So both your players experienced the wrath the game for not properly micromanaging their WP-track and Rage-track. Then again, I don't really see where the fun is supposed to be in being overly cautious in using Gifts, supernatural Forms or the Crinos Form. And of course if you have new players who are unfamiliar with the system, it's hard to imagine that they would be capable of properly managing their Rage-track and my guess is most wouldn't immediately be aware just how often the WP-track gets burdened in the W5-system and that Frenzy will disrupt the game entirely when you're not careful with your WP.
I also don't like the part of "losing the wolf" in general where the only way to get out of it is to howl at the moon (unless you have a specific Rite). There's nothing interesting about making players jumpt through that hoop.
The link between Hauglosk and the Chronicle Tenets isn't handled well. If I were to run it again, I'd probably reframe the Tenets as specific statements about "What should Garou do?" and present it to players like that as well. It doesn't quite work with the definition of Hauglosk as fanaticism but man... the book calls it fanaticism and overzealousness but then the only flavor of that which gets presented is the Cult of Fenris and the book later strongly links it to fascism and Nazism. So yeah... that sucks. And it isn't just that one part in the book, that adventure Deepest of Wounds that also had the strange torture/brainwashing-stuff also had a Cult of Fenris NPC called Draug (Eli Markkanen) whose description states "Draug had no qualms leveraging “deplorable”, hateful and prejudiced aspects of human society like the white nationalist movement and neo-Nazism. His ideas were unwelcome by everyone except Black Lung, which is why the two stuck together." (Black Lung is the other Cult of Fenris antagonist in the adventure)
Apparently the presence of Nazi-Werewolves will be a constant in W5 - which sucks.
In the spirit of being as vanilla as possible, I did take control of their character
I take notes but that's how I download things into my head, I never look at them ever, that goes for TTRPG as well as for college. lol
I think I’m pretty much done giving Apocalypse as a whole a chance, W5 did not fulfill my hopes of making the setting more appealing and at this point I’d probably only play with good friends. Otherwise? I’m good with Forsaken 2E. I think I’m done with hunger/rage dice because throughout all I have experienced with V5 and seen with W5, they just seem super gimmicky to me.
Glad everyone enjoyed it. I also understand some people's misgivings (including yourself). Im an OG world of darkness player including Werewolf. I will avoid snarky negativity that's so common and i imagine as a TH-camr, you are too. That being said... we've been playing for 3-4 months now in-between V5 games in the same setting and Chronicle; dozens of games. We definitely tweaked some rules and rewrote others. Not to an extreme extent but yes, several. Its inevitable in every game setting. We definitely had to change the legacy edition to fit our table un some respects, to a much greater extent than in w5. Our takeaway: a lot of change's were made for political correctness. Wether you agree or not that's what we saw. And the changes are good overall. But not as much for PC reasons as for pragmatic one's. Next Lore. This has little lore included (as did 1st edition if you recall). However, you can't just forget all that lore or just throw it away. There were just as many good ideas and lore as bad. We prefer to keep the good in our game. On top of that, this game offer's something old edition didn't offer as much of. Opportunity. We now have an opportunity to create our own lore to add to or replace old. We're not nearly as worried about going against 'canon', attracting the ire of keyboard warrior's and offending other new OG players that join. I've been playing this game longer than you've been alive. I only say that not as a brag (how wierd would that be) or in any way lesson the huge impact your channel has. I say it to remind people, you can be an old legacy player that can still enjoy this game as long as you gi in with an open mind and not trying to compare oranges to apples. If you do that then yeah you're not going to like it. I look forward to seeing more of your videos about the subject and ty for your efforts and for promoting the hobby.
My two biggest gripes with W5 as a legacy-player come down to this:
1) If I'm supposed to disengage from previous lore and fill the world with my own lore, W5 isn't nearly distinct or original enough for my tastes. When it says at the start "Re-imagination, not continuation", I feel the corebook doesn't do nearly enough in the "Re-imagination"-department for my tastes. Also, the setups in terms of lore in the W5 corebook are often merely bad writing instead of interesting, mysterious blank spaces. There's nothing interesting about the shrug the W5 corebook offers on the fall of the Garou-Nation. It... just happened. Not clear when exactly it happened and what exactly the cut-off point/event is supposed to be, it just happened. I understand the mystery of Father Wolf and Pangaea in WtF as it's an event in the distant past, here it's just weird to know absolutely nothing about such a critical event of the setting that could have happened in a span between the 1700s and presumably last year or something. I'd have a far easier time loving W5 for what it is if it actually had a stronger core-concept that is able to stand on its own.
2) I'd have more respect for the W5-premise of the game (Age of Apocalypse, Gaia dead/dying etc.) if there were a game built around it that supported this direction. The book laments the limitations of the Garou, their reliance on Rage and violence, for example but the gameplay doesn't reflect that. What PCs are equipped to do is the same-old Garou-stuff. There's no alternative or new way offered for the PCs to find a new and better way that is different from other Garou. So, on one hand the book is castigating the Garou of old and the deeply flawed nature of Garou but on the other hand, the game isn't set up to help players to do anything about that. And with the context being the literal end of the world as the stakes for the game, that just feels off to me.
I feel like these discussions all too often frame perspectives as a legacy vs 5th edition even when the criticisms are purely aimed at what W5 aims to do and how good/bad it is at doing that.
Sucks that the event got cancelled after all that work you put in. That said at least your friends seemed to enjoy things!
I know it's a bit odd of me but I do feel bad for the one person who wanted to participate but wasn't able to do so due to the lack of interest from others...
Regarding your player losing the wolf, the player can once per session take a point of Harano and raise rage to 5.
Same for the player who had low willpower, you can take a point of hauglosk and fill up your willpower, once per session.
Easy to miss of course because they don't list it under the section that describes how you gain willpower or rage(because that would make sense), they only list in where they describe harano and hauglosk(p.140-141)
Nice to hear of your experience playing and you bag is fiiiiine as well :)
This made my day LOL
Setting the bullshit with the Get aside (which, come on, we know damn well why they picked the Get to be the tribe to fall), they’re doing their damndest to water down every tribe to be just interchangeable garbage. Everything unique about each of the tribes is gone. The spiritual stuff is gone. It’s just cut-rate Forsaken and the meme version of what Werewolf is.
It's also very bad Forsaken compared to Forsaken.
@@RuneKnight3 yeah, calling W5 "just Forsaken" is so insulting to "Wolf Must Hunt" Forsaken. Such a good Werewolf game!
Its a very shitty version of Forsaken. Literally no reason to play it over Forsaken or W20.
Been saying the same thing about the other game lines since 2016@@Zombieflesheaters123 . Requiem 2e is a better Vampire game too imo.
I've played a storm lord off an on across two editions. He would utterly wreck the modern shadow lords and silver fangs presentation. And probably descend very quickly into "fanaticism", but he'd get things done.@@slimek20
Are green dice more expensive
Nah, I just didn't need them
Oh ok
I really would be interested in your opinion on changing rules.
How would you change/adapt the rules of W5 to make it fun to play for you?
th-cam.com/video/OmaNEBcEVWY/w-d-xo.html
Man, I really used to enjoy your content.....
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