I support and admire Kathleen Stock, but I disagree with her going too far with 'kindness'. She appears to seek some 'centre ground' where she can have a dialogue with 'Trans' Ideologues. I believe this is not possible, that there are not two sides to this argument. It is not a right-left issue. It is a right-wrong issue, and all right is on the side of biology and scientific fact, and gender ideology has no case whatsoever, and is, moreover, pernicious in its effects. Of course, that is why when gender idealogues engage with non-idealogues - which is extremely rarely - the idealogues' 'argument' seems to consist of confections, imaginary images, reifications, and when all else fails (and it always does), lies, libels, threats of violence and death, and actual violence. The conclusion that I come to, therefore, is that there must be no compromise with this ideology in any respect or any context.
As a man I find her a fantastic role model for my daughter. JK too. So brave in a world where women rights are under attack and when u speak out u are ostracised
I hear what you’re saying. But don’t find it completely fair to judge Kathleen on her “kindness” stance on this issue from an anonymous Internet user who’s not experienced the saga she unexpectedly found herself in. Might I invite you to step up to a very public position like Dr. Kathleen Stock and voice your viewpoint as you prefer?
@@Will_craig My 15 yr old daughter loved Harry Potter but now but has already been scared away from JKR by the misinformed children who have adopt the ideology. When she was little I worried about bad boyfriends, I had no idea I'd be trying to protect her the moment she reached puberty from cultist trans activists!
You can tell that KS never wanted to be centre of attention but thank God she keeps soldiering on because she is such a classy calm much needed voice! Thank you, KS!
Delightful stuff! In the often stifled world we now inhabit it’s easy to forget the simple pleasure of watching a thoughtful, free-wheeling and open-minded discussion (not debate) between two intelligent and experienced people.
So glad to see and hear Rosie Kay finally. I remember when the controversy broke around her several months (a year? +?) ago. Crazy. Stupid students. Stock is of course brilliant as always, too.
Great to hear this discussion, could have listened for much, much longer to these interesting women talking. Play and humour are essential to our wellbeing. Thanks FSU 👍
I'm a 73 year old man watching the idealistic and intellectual values I strove to live my life by completely trashed in a world that I can make little sense of and frankly scares and alienates me. I was so moved though by these two fine people (aka women) and resolved not to give up believing in reason and enlightenment. Bless them both.
Thank you Dr Stock. Listening to you is so refreshing and I hope you keep going on with more public appearances. A LOT of common sense messages that you convey reach more parents, especially those with children who rely so much on social media in their leisure time than use that time on developing their knowledge and experience in arts and creative fields.
Same, I joined yesterday. The union I've been with for 2 decades want us to use pronouns on our emails and badges and compel their use. Got a couple of TiMs running our local branch so, the thing i will need my union for, I know I won't be supported. I won't be forced to lie
In the days before my daughter started being sucked towards the gender cult ideology, I'd heard of Kathleen and some cancelling thing at Oxford, and thought it seemed odd but there must have been some good reason ... flash forward a year of educating myself to try and rescue my daughter and my eyes are now wide open. Thank you Kathleen and so many other cool objective heads I learn from who have helped settled me.
Love Kathleen Stock. She's a true philosopher, and understands the existential societal & ethical dangers of "identity culture" and "gender ideologies". In other talks she explains very well why it must be constrained, if not eliminated. Most liberals & conservatives who listen to her end up supporting her.
Kathleen is fantastic. I’m glad that she’s able to speak and have a platform to do so. So many women in my life can’t voice their opinions or speak without fear of losing their job. Or just out of fear in general. One thing is clear, they all agree that men can’t be women, a subset of woman and don’t wish to adhere to compelled speech in affirming said fantasy. All of them have experienced vile situations where a trans identified male has made them relive sexual trauma or abuse because said men feel entitled to spaces, usually small, confined ones like bathrooms. Bathrooms which used to be a female only sanctuary to escape males or feel comfort when dealing with menstruation related issues or even just using the toilet knowing we have to expose our lower half. The same is said for female rape support groups, domestic violence shelters where women have fled male violence, often with children or lesbian support groups/bars. Said fears rise from the TRA mob labelling them fascists/nazis or pressuring their employers, social circles and families to condemn them or else they will find themselves hounded and labelled as “bigots” by association. The fear also arises from these TRAs being masked, mostly male and threaten and often conflict violence. They hold signs where they say we should be killed, raped and decapitated. Yet they are one of the most protected and privileged groups worldwide. One example is a TRA fracturing the skull of a 70+ year old woman who attended a women’s rally. He did so by punching her repeatedly. This is modern day fascism, or at least a stepping stone to it. The women who believe in material reality and the protected characteristic of sex aren’t on the wrong side of history. We’re tired of having to fight against a faith based on gender. Perhaps read about the person who coined it and pushed for it to erase sex. I don’t believe in it and I never will. People like myself who are same sex attracted are told we are “transphobic” or to just try “girl dick” as “transbians” or men can be lesbians. No, lesbians are same sex attracted, female homosexuals. A male can never be a lesbian or a woman. Identify how you want, live your life in whatever clothes you want to. BUT-beware of Imitating highly sexualised stereotypes and caricatures of women because it doesn’t equal girlhood or womanhood. It’s sexist. It’s degrading. You don’t get to push your way into womanhood and tell women what it means to be a woman. You don’t get to invade hard won single sex spaces or abuse women in prisons. We are females and the majority of us are tired of men’s feelings trumping our lived reality full of misogyny, hatred and violence against us. Do our lives and wellbeing matter? They have to. We can’t stop for a second and let them take more from us. We have to reclaim our words, our spaces and rights. We fight on.
I feel for all women who feel silenced. Do you get this kind of repression in your everyday life? How? For me it's only if I discuss this topic with some so called "liberal" friends who accuse me of intolerance just for prioritizing biological reality.
I admire Kathleen Stock so much ! She is a brave and honest lady. The trans cult ideology is so divisive, these funny and intelligent women are to be aspired to be figures in society, the hand maidens of the trans cult ideology are missing out on truth, humour and common sense !
Lovely conversation! And now I am inspired to go and watch some 9f my favorite art....the Art,Beauty and expressiveness of a Papadakis/Cizeron routine.
An important conversation. I treasure and am grateful to my mentors for passing on their own heritage in Bel Canto. Something that cannot be learned from books . One intuits a deep truth in the arts that commercial exploitation can inhibit. The human person who wants to be an artist, perhaps even a great artist, is a kind of prophet with a unique name and message for their time. This often means taking the path less travelled. Courage and integrity in preserving beauty and truth in the arts still beckons.
Isn't it so very very telling that on this isde of the argument there's humour and humanism, and on the other side of the argument there's anger and misanthropy.
I would love even more discussion around this. How can someone not established in the arts even begin if they feel they will be lying for their whole career just to get by so they don't ruffle feathers? If things become precarious for the established artists, this current state will scare people away whose art we might be missing. Can an alternative scene be created if it is so intertwined? I am thinking about theatre mainly
I had a load of friends tell me what a transphobe JK Rowling was. I have no dog in that race I have no love of the potter series so I didn't have feelings about her that would colour my perceptions. The more people said this the more I got curious about what she had actually said. Noone could tell me so I started looking into it. I found sooo many articles telling me what JK thinks and how she wants trans youth to die and how she definitely promotes eugenics etc etc but I couldn't find anywhere any evidence of how this all started. Eventually I found out about the letter she wrote defending women's spaces and I was sure that couldn't be it because it was such a reasonable position to take. I'm pretty sure that is the "evidence" they are using but none of them can print it and break it down logically because once they did people would be asking where exactly the genocidal desires are communicated. So they cite each other. It's a horrific game if Chinese whispers that evolves into a witch hunt. They're looking for people to burn, so they whip up a crowd and getting them feeling so much they're not thinking any more. That for me was it then I found out about what they're doing to autistic children and I am struggling to stay balanced in the topic. I'm finding it's colouring my opinion of trans individuals and that's not fair
A couple things your post brings to mind is that these generations coming up are more influenced by appearances,the image, representation maybe because of the rise of social media rather than pre internet days where getting to the crux of the matter was more the motivation (now controversy is more important than the resolution) its about the simulacrum that was foretold. I feel sorry for them, it must be a really nervous way to live. It's like a dialectic without any isomorphism
@@davidsprouse151 I've been thinking about that a lot lately. I think what happened is they passed online as whatever they wanted to with their carefully curated photos from the right angles. Now they're in the real world and not passing the way they were online. They've already invested so much in the fantasy that the only ways to deal with the cognitive dissonance is to externalise the feelings and attribute the non passing to bigotry or accept that they are not what they want to be
@RenegadeContext a very basic fact about adolescents is an absolute obsession with authenticity. Anything that whiffs of hypocrisy drives them nuts! We're all hypocrits to an extent because of the unconscious. We lie to ourselves all the time. Just teach them to love their thumbs. The real world isn't an ersatz therapy.
@@davidsprouse151 I was talking about fully grow men! You're absolutely right about adolescents. That's very likely why they've been sucked in, the idea that they can be "authentic" if they behave in a way that is against who they are but I honestly think for the adults there's a ton of narcissism driving them
There is no need for cancel culture.The government must step into this nonsense and legislate to outlaw it,and reinforce the freedom of speech for all.Isn’t this the role of government to secure the welfare of the people who vote for them.
Subjects raised here reminded me why I discouraged my great nephews from going to university, regardless that both qualified. Anyone leaving university with esoteric qualifications (and being woke) are asking for poverty in later life. I suggested that they get skills which people wanted and would always want so they could always get a job.
One reason kids (trans or otherwise) stay in schools is because it's safe. Safety is a problem in the real world: psychological, physical, and economic. And now everyone is piling on the way fascists do. Getting rid of stock was a little bit like biting the hand that feeds you IMHO. But while theyre at university they spend an inordinate amount of time in the humanities and pseudo sciences. They'd be better off in stem. It's more useful.
Kathleen Stock is not only right and eloquent and successful and well established, she is also adorable for her integrity. That´s what resentful woke babies from divorced families don´t have. No wonder they hate Kathleen Stock..
.person to person connection is dying - sad. Yet is a great way to learn - mentorship, discipleship. .so much attention and airspace is given to the tiny minority - instead of opening up the Big Picture, and keeping Life rich.. .
Yes. I stood in the acapella choir I've been a member of for 15+ years. The younger (40) member standing next to me texted a friend with conversation for most of choir practice (except when singing, she's a perfect on pitch singer thanks to the app). She said neither "hello" or "goodbye" and the only words she spoke to me were "you're a semi-tone out" in that run of three notes. At break, she asked the choir leader "when is our next performance?". Performance, that's all they're interested in.
This channel needs and deserves way more views. But that's where the yt algorithm and agenda come in. Puhing the "right" narrative and hiding the "wrong" narrative as much as possible. Sad.Isn't it?
Arts Council Funding / Big Government funding arts .... look at how much greatness has emerged since it funds. It is merely a kind of Arts Dole which only forces people to make work with certain criteria.
Yes! This was a great discussion. However, I think there is more to be discussed regarding why the funding should set certain criteria. Is there an agenda? Or am I teetering on the edge of conspiracy theories???
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Honestly adore Kathleen Stock.. What a Woman!!! And what an amazing example to us all as well..
Yes, I love her. She is so poised and measured yet also has a great sense of humour.
I support and admire Kathleen Stock, but I disagree with her going too far with 'kindness'. She appears to seek some 'centre ground' where she can have a dialogue with 'Trans' Ideologues. I believe this is not possible, that there are not two sides to this argument. It is not a right-left issue. It is a right-wrong issue, and all right is on the side of biology and scientific fact, and gender ideology has no case whatsoever, and is, moreover, pernicious in its effects. Of course, that is why when gender idealogues engage with non-idealogues - which is extremely rarely - the idealogues' 'argument' seems to consist of confections, imaginary images, reifications, and when all else fails (and it always does), lies, libels, threats of violence and death, and actual violence. The conclusion that I come to, therefore, is that there must be no compromise with this ideology in any respect or any context.
As a man I find her a fantastic role model for my daughter.
JK too. So brave in a world where women rights are under attack and when u speak out u are ostracised
I hear what you’re saying. But don’t find it completely fair to judge Kathleen on her “kindness” stance on this issue from an anonymous Internet user who’s not experienced the saga she unexpectedly found herself in. Might I invite you to step up to a very public position like Dr. Kathleen Stock and voice your viewpoint as you prefer?
@@Will_craig My 15 yr old daughter loved Harry Potter but now but has already been scared away from JKR by the misinformed children who have adopt the ideology. When she was little I worried about bad boyfriends, I had no idea I'd be trying to protect her the moment she reached puberty from cultist trans activists!
Love Kathleen Stock - she’s such a wonderful speaker. So eloquent.
You can tell that KS never wanted to be centre of attention but thank God she keeps soldiering on because she is such a classy calm much needed voice! Thank you, KS!
Lovely to hear Kathleen talk.
What a fabulous glimpse of a speaker interacting as a learned philosopher as well as a delightfully humorous woman!
Delightful stuff! In the often stifled world we now inhabit it’s easy to forget the simple pleasure of watching a thoughtful, free-wheeling and open-minded discussion (not debate) between two intelligent and experienced people.
So glad to see and hear Rosie Kay finally. I remember when the controversy broke around her several months (a year? +?) ago. Crazy. Stupid students.
Stock is of course brilliant as always, too.
Triggernometry interviewed Rosie Kay (and Kathleen Stock) so if you wish to see and hear more of her story I recommend that podcast.
Great to hear this discussion, could have listened for much, much longer to these interesting women talking. Play and humour are essential to our wellbeing. Thanks FSU 👍
I'm a 73 year old man watching the idealistic and intellectual values I strove to live my life by completely trashed in a world that I can make little sense of and frankly scares and alienates me. I was so moved though by these two fine people (aka women) and resolved not to give up believing in reason and enlightenment. Bless them both.
At 70 I am much the same. These women give me hope.
Such admiration for these women. Could listen to Kathleen Stock speak every day!
Thank you Dr Stock. Listening to you is so refreshing and I hope you keep going on with more public appearances. A LOT of common sense messages that you convey reach more parents, especially those with children who rely so much on social media in their leisure time than use that time on developing their knowledge and experience in arts and creative fields.
Love this conversation and i joined the FSU at the weekend.
Welcome!
Same, I joined yesterday. The union I've been with for 2 decades want us to use pronouns on our emails and badges and compel their use. Got a couple of TiMs running our local branch so, the thing i will need my union for, I know I won't be supported. I won't be forced to lie
In the days before my daughter started being sucked towards the gender cult ideology, I'd heard of Kathleen and some cancelling thing at Oxford, and thought it seemed odd but there must have been some good reason ... flash forward a year of educating myself to try and rescue my daughter and my eyes are now wide open. Thank you Kathleen and so many other cool objective heads I learn from who have helped settled me.
I refuse to believe it's possible to be THAT beautiful and intelligent at the same time... Such an exceptionally stunning woman.
Love Kathleen Stock. She's a true philosopher, and understands the existential societal & ethical dangers of "identity culture" and "gender ideologies". In other talks she explains very well why it must be constrained, if not eliminated. Most liberals & conservatives who listen to her end up supporting her.
I just can't but love these women.
Great you managed to organise FSU Art Forum! Love it!
Kathleen is fantastic.
I’m glad that she’s able to speak and have a platform to do so.
So many women in my life can’t voice their opinions or speak without fear of losing their job. Or just out of fear in general. One thing is clear, they all agree that men can’t be women, a subset of woman and don’t wish to adhere to compelled speech in affirming said fantasy.
All of them have experienced vile situations where a trans identified male has made them relive sexual trauma or abuse because said men feel entitled to spaces, usually small, confined ones like bathrooms. Bathrooms which used to be a female only sanctuary to escape males or feel comfort when dealing with menstruation related issues or even just using the toilet knowing we have to expose our lower half.
The same is said for female rape support groups, domestic violence shelters where women have fled male violence, often with children or lesbian support groups/bars.
Said fears rise from the TRA mob labelling them fascists/nazis or pressuring their employers, social circles and families to condemn them or else they will find themselves hounded and labelled as “bigots” by association.
The fear also arises from these TRAs being masked, mostly male and threaten and often conflict violence. They hold signs where they say we should be killed, raped and decapitated. Yet they are one of the most protected and privileged groups worldwide. One example is a TRA fracturing the skull of a 70+ year old woman who attended a women’s rally. He did so by punching her repeatedly.
This is modern day fascism, or at least a stepping stone to it. The women who believe in material reality and the protected characteristic of sex aren’t on the wrong side of history.
We’re tired of having to fight against a faith based on gender. Perhaps read about the person who coined it and pushed for it to erase sex.
I don’t believe in it and I never will.
People like myself who are same sex attracted are told we are “transphobic” or to just try “girl dick” as “transbians” or men can be lesbians.
No, lesbians are same sex attracted, female homosexuals. A male can never be a lesbian or a woman.
Identify how you want, live your life in whatever clothes you want to.
BUT-beware of Imitating highly sexualised stereotypes and caricatures of women because it doesn’t equal girlhood or womanhood. It’s sexist. It’s degrading.
You don’t get to push your way into womanhood and tell women what it means to be a woman.
You don’t get to invade hard won single sex spaces or abuse women in prisons.
We are females and the majority of us are tired of men’s feelings trumping our lived reality full of misogyny, hatred and violence against us.
Do our lives and wellbeing matter?
They have to.
We can’t stop for a second and let them take more from us. We have to reclaim our words, our spaces and rights.
We fight on.
I feel for all women who feel silenced. Do you get this kind of repression in your everyday life? How?
For me it's only if I discuss this topic with some so called "liberal" friends who accuse me of intolerance just for prioritizing biological reality.
Brilliant. Really fascinating conversation.
Rosie Kay is intelligent and bright great conversation with also a marvellous BOTH .THANX
Rational sane person talking about things with evidence and the scientific method.
Great intelligent conversation. Thank you both.
thoughtful, eloquent, funny, and TRUE. thanks
Two very bright articulate women who are really funny and a real treat to watch. Very interesting thought provoking insights here.
So glad to see this conversation being had within the arts. Working in this sector has become ideologically stifling.
Brilliant....And not a glue tube anywhere. Thank you Kathleen for your absolute courage.
I admire Kathleen Stock so much ! She is a brave and honest lady. The trans cult ideology is so divisive, these funny and intelligent women are to be aspired to be figures in society, the hand maidens of the trans cult ideology are missing out on truth, humour and common sense !
💜Kathleen💜💜💜
Lovely conversation! And now I am inspired to go and watch some 9f my favorite art....the Art,Beauty and expressiveness of a Papadakis/Cizeron routine.
I adore you both.
An important conversation. I treasure and am grateful to my mentors for passing on their own heritage in Bel Canto. Something that cannot be learned from books . One intuits a deep truth in the arts that commercial exploitation can inhibit. The human person who wants to be an artist, perhaps even a great artist, is a kind of prophet with a unique name and message for their time. This often means taking the path less travelled. Courage and integrity in preserving beauty and truth in the arts still beckons.
Wonderful talk. I'd also like to recommend reading Elizabeth Grosz on art.
Rosie Kay has it right, we all need to know our brief..
Isn't it so very very telling that on this isde of the argument there's humour and humanism, and on the other side of the argument there's anger and misanthropy.
Whenever I hear the term “lived experience” I always what to ask “What’s an unlived experience?”
Excellent discussion.
Yes - it is a dumb, redundant, pretentious phrase.
Not your own
I would love even more discussion around this. How can someone not established in the arts even begin if they feel they will be lying for their whole career just to get by so they don't ruffle feathers? If things become precarious for the established artists, this current state will scare people away whose art we might be missing. Can an alternative scene be created if it is so intertwined? I am thinking about theatre mainly
Immediately clicked on this in my feed - A pairing of Rosie and Kathleen was not an opportunity to be missed.
They didn't disappoimt.
Excellent stuff.
“If there’s war between the sexes, then there’ll be no people left” Joe Jackson 1982 🎹
Love her love her love her
I had a load of friends tell me what a transphobe JK Rowling was. I have no dog in that race I have no love of the potter series so I didn't have feelings about her that would colour my perceptions. The more people said this the more I got curious about what she had actually said. Noone could tell me so I started looking into it. I found sooo many articles telling me what JK thinks and how she wants trans youth to die and how she definitely promotes eugenics etc etc but I couldn't find anywhere any evidence of how this all started. Eventually I found out about the letter she wrote defending women's spaces and I was sure that couldn't be it because it was such a reasonable position to take. I'm pretty sure that is the "evidence" they are using but none of them can print it and break it down logically because once they did people would be asking where exactly the genocidal desires are communicated. So they cite each other. It's a horrific game if Chinese whispers that evolves into a witch hunt. They're looking for people to burn, so they whip up a crowd and getting them feeling so much they're not thinking any more. That for me was it then I found out about what they're doing to autistic children and I am struggling to stay balanced in the topic. I'm finding it's colouring my opinion of trans individuals and that's not fair
Chinese whispers is a great analogy and once a respected media outlet repeats an untruth it becomes 'true'.
A couple things your post brings to mind is that these generations coming up are more influenced by appearances,the image, representation maybe because of the rise of social media rather than pre internet days where getting to the crux of the matter was more the motivation (now controversy is more important than the resolution) its about the simulacrum that was foretold. I feel sorry for them, it must be a really nervous way to live. It's like a dialectic without any isomorphism
@@davidsprouse151 I've been thinking about that a lot lately. I think what happened is they passed online as whatever they wanted to with their carefully curated photos from the right angles. Now they're in the real world and not passing the way they were online. They've already invested so much in the fantasy that the only ways to deal with the cognitive dissonance is to externalise the feelings and attribute the non passing to bigotry or accept that they are not what they want to be
@RenegadeContext a very basic fact about adolescents is an absolute obsession with authenticity. Anything that whiffs of hypocrisy drives them nuts! We're all hypocrits to an extent because of the unconscious. We lie to ourselves all the time. Just teach them to love their thumbs. The real world isn't an ersatz therapy.
@@davidsprouse151 I was talking about fully grow men! You're absolutely right about adolescents. That's very likely why they've been sucked in, the idea that they can be "authentic" if they behave in a way that is against who they are but I honestly think for the adults there's a ton of narcissism driving them
There is no need for cancel culture.The government must step into this nonsense and legislate to outlaw it,and reinforce the freedom of speech for all.Isn’t this the role of government to secure the welfare of the people who vote for them.
Subjects raised here reminded me why I discouraged my great nephews from going to university, regardless that both qualified. Anyone leaving university with esoteric qualifications (and being woke) are asking for poverty in later life. I suggested that they get skills which people wanted and would always want so they could always get a job.
Good idea!
One reason kids (trans or otherwise) stay in schools is because it's safe. Safety is a problem in the real world: psychological, physical, and economic. And now everyone is piling on the way fascists do. Getting rid of stock was a little bit like biting the hand that feeds you IMHO. But while theyre at university they spend an inordinate amount of time in the humanities and pseudo sciences. They'd be better off in stem. It's more useful.
Kathleen Stock is not only right and eloquent and successful and well established, she is also adorable for her integrity. That´s what resentful woke babies from divorced families don´t have. No wonder they hate Kathleen Stock..
.person to person connection is dying - sad. Yet is a great way to learn - mentorship, discipleship.
.so much attention and airspace is given to the tiny minority - instead of opening up the Big Picture, and keeping Life rich..
.
Yes. I stood in the acapella choir I've been a member of for 15+ years. The younger (40) member standing next to me texted a friend with conversation for most of choir practice (except when singing, she's a perfect on pitch singer thanks to the app). She said neither "hello" or "goodbye" and the only words she spoke to me were "you're a semi-tone out" in that run of three notes. At break, she asked the choir leader "when is our next performance?". Performance, that's all they're interested in.
@@carolynbrightfield8911 maybe she's neuro-diverse how dare you!
Instant sub! 💪
This channel needs and deserves way more views. But that's where the yt algorithm and agenda come in. Puhing the "right" narrative and hiding the "wrong" narrative as much as possible. Sad.Isn't it?
Arts Council Funding / Big Government funding arts .... look at how much greatness has emerged since it funds. It is merely a kind of Arts Dole which only forces people to make work with certain criteria.
Arts Council funding is like bright colours on posinous frogs, a warning to stay away.
Yes! This was a great discussion. However, I think there is more to be discussed regarding why the funding should set certain criteria. Is there an agenda? Or am I teetering on the edge of conspiracy theories???
Can an adult declare that they identify as a child and demand a right to hang out in children's spaces?
Trans Widow Ute Heggen YT channel thanks these 2 heroes! We are the ones who divorced suddenly crossdressing, demanding, porn sick parents.
Kathleen reminds me of Camille Paglia
Now you've opened up a can of worms!