As years have gone by, I am thankful that I no longer ever say which horse was better, and can simply enjoy the fact that I was alive to have seen them both. BRIAN
4/06 cont. The other Triple Crown winner I love, though never saw, was Count Fleet---a true freak of nature. But Slew was a monster. I've always said that one of the greatest races of all time would feature three horses at Belmont Park going a flat mile: Seattle Slew, Dr. Fager, and Swaps. Three true milers going at it with the sun shining and flags flying. What a horse race.
"The Doc" was in my mind the perfect match race horse, no horse ever survived going with him for the lead,and that includes the great Damascus. I've had previous debates on this video in the past. He was the ultimate front running destroyer,he could go 10F in 1:59 & change, 7F 1;20 & change,& carry 130+lbs. This is my ideal racehorse.
I never realized how great a horse Dr. Fager was. Even when Hedevar was in there to soften him up on the front end, he was still running gamely down the stretch. And with 135 pounds!
That is very true,all good trainers try to put their horses in the right spots. Also they learn about every horse in their barn. Knowing how a horse likes a race to set up for them(pace,position,opposition,and whether to use a rabbit,etc.). It has always been that way.
Look at all those cars in the Aqueduct parking lot for the Gotham! For a KD sub-prep! Today you'd see that much only at the Belmont Stakes and even then only if the Triple Crown was on the line!
I understand, who could fault Bill Nack for loving Secretariat. He spent a large amount of time following that horse around. His book on Secretariat is outstanding.
Damascus's trainer Frank Whiteley knew that Dr.Fager was unbeatable head to head. He put probably the best rabbit in history,One-time world record holder for a mile,in Hedavar to get Fagers blood up. The two times Damascus won he had his rabbit with him. When Damascus had to man up against "The Doc" he got it handed to him.
Dr. Fager and Damascus were both unquestionably great horses. Damascus at his best as a 3yo would come from off the pace and engulf the leaders by the time they were at the top of the stretch with a devastating move. Dr. Fager seemed to be peaking into an unbeatable horse as a 4yo when he was retired fully sound. I can't imagine betting against him in a match race situation against anyone in history from 6 furlongs to 1/1/4 mile, he just had the look of something never seen before or since as far as sustained speed and will to win. Imagine the times he may have run with the nowadays standard of 124 or so in todays handicaps.
I saw every triple crown race from 1964 until just recently. So I saw Northern Dancer, Damascus, Kauai King, and Majestic Prince. The 60's was a great decade but it proved to me just how difficult it is for a horse to win the Triple Crown. I still think people don't truly understand that very great horses don't win the Triple Crown. That is precisely why I think Affirmed has to be listed by everyone among the top ten of all time. I never saw a more competitive race horse.
Has there ever been a duel of such heavyweights? Man... How great was Dr. Fager? And how great might he have been if he could have been rated... Unbelievable. Damascus is great too, but I always hated that Damascus' stable used a rabbit. Came to find out that his trainer was Frank Whitely, trainer of the great Ruffian.
I can't believe you never hear about great horses like Damascus. A good example is Colin. He retired undefeated 15-0, and even beat Man O'War's sire Fair Play!
Yes that would be a great race. Seattle Slew was a horse with the rare ability to go real fast early and just keep pouring it on. How about Swaps, he was just incredible in 1956. Swaps set multiple records, he was one of the great ones.
Mr.Rotz got the oppurtunity to ride "The Doc" once. After just inhaling Kissin George(a pretty good sprinter himself), Rotz commented that horse was a freak! Need I say more?
@funshipM174 I politely disagree. If we remove "rabbits", then we would also have to re-examine jockey strategy, such as "floating horses wide" and "pinning horses down on the hedge" and "boxing horses in." The end result is which horse will win under the allowed rules. Even "Match Races" really do not prove which horse is better. I appreciate these two horses as equally great, now. In the '60s, I chose sides. Now, I just marvel at the greatness we saw for those years. Thank you.
@BE109 Hedevar did in fact hold the world record for one week in 1966, which Buckpasser broke winning the Arlington Classic in 1:32 3/5, which is the record Dr. Fager would break in the Washington Park Handicap when that was run at a mile in 1968.
Dr. Fager was a very fierce competiter, his burning will to win was sometimes used against him. John Nerud struggled with the idea of just letting him go. Sometimes Dr. Fager would rate somewhat,this sometimes gave Nerud the hope he might relax and not chase rabbits. Finally, the only time it ever cost him was the 2 times Whiteley put Hedevar(who once held the world record for a mile) to run as a rabbit for Damascus. Otherwise no horse could survive the punishment Dr. Fager dished out.
Greenwolfe Green What people I think don't realize is how great the 1967 crop of three year olds really was. The four Damascus-Dr. Fager meetings (including the 1967 Woodward, which could be considered the biggest non-Triple Crown race of the past 50 years and earned the "Race of the Century" status even if I think that title really belongs to Forego's Marlboro Cup nine years later when he carried 137 pounds) that are shown here were stellar and showed Dr. Fager clearly was the best horse up to 1 1/4 Miles. It's a shame Nerud did not try Dr. Fager beyond that distance, it would have been very interesting if he and Damascus had met in the two-mile Jockey Club Gold Cup and Damascus did not have Hedevar (a one-time mile world record holder) to help him in that.
Makes sense to me, just passing on Bill Nack's comments fm 'Talkin Horses Q&A. What about fact that in the 1 1/2 mi Belmont in which they all thought he was going "too damn fast" his 3/4 mi time was 1:09 4/5 and the broke his own Derby time doing 1:59 at 1 1/4 mi?
2.cont. and that, in a match race against Dr. Fager, he would run head and head with him until the turn for home and then, with that giant heart pumping Secretariat home, would draw away to win it. The really great match race is Dr. Fager and Seattle Slew at a flat mile, Belmont Park, 126 pounds each.. How do you see that one?
Well no one is wrong, this is of course just a discussion of great horses. I hold all 3 in high regard. In fact I believe Ruffian was the greatest racemare of all. She could have very well disposed of the "Good Doctor"and "Big Red". That is why it is so much fun to discuss these TB's. Bill Nack is of course entitled to his opinion,the point being someone else just as qualified,like Nerud,Baeza,Alan Porter could give just as convincing evidence for Dr. Fager.
Dr Fager, Damascus, Buckpasser, are you kidding me? Perhaps the three best horses to be racing at the same time ever. There are those who would dismiss Damascus because he used a rabbit twice to beat the Dr, but he was a monster in his own right. While Secretariat probably wouldn't be able to run away from any these horses at a mile, I suspect he would prevail nonetheless, and absolutely dominate at longer distances. As the Belmont, Preakness, and other races demonstrated, there wasn't a rabbit fast enough to soften him up over any distance. .
I agree with you about Fager on all counts,but secretariat wasn't a 100% against Onion on that day. He had been battling a low grade fever coming up to the race. Later he inhaled Onion(and many others) in the Marlboro Cup. I do believe that Fager could beat anyone going head to head.
In my opinion The Good Doctor was the best of both. If it hadn't been for the rabbit, he may have prevailed in all the 4 races, but that's part of racing. The fact is that they were both true champions, true superhorses
I believe Dr. Fager was the ultimate match race horse. I do believe that Seattle Slew would have given him a rough time. In the end I think the "Doc" would have gone on to win. He was a freak!
and this fm 4/06 'Talkin Horses w/Nack Q/ Apart from Secretariat, of course, which Triple Crown winner do you consider the best? Nack:I think Seattle Slew was one of the greatest racehorses of all time, and I suspect that he would have given Secretariat his greatest competition.
@BE109 I agree that Dr. Fager was the better horse, as Braulio Baeza said "Dr. Fager could beat Damascus even in his sleep." However he also said "He was a real free-running horse. I rated him a few times, but he resented it and he fought me." Physically going more than 10 furlongs isn't the problem (weight sure wouldn't be a problem!) but I think to much of a pace could be (I not talking about a rabbit, just some speed in moderate to big field).
I'm not saying rabbits should be outlawed. Also Buckpasser did use a rabbit (Great Power,I think),but that rabbit packed it in pretty early in the in the 2 races with Fager. Alas you know by now how I feel!
Their times were very comparable. 1:59 and change. Dr. Fager did it in the Surburban H. against his great rival Damascus. Fager ran the 10 furlongs in 1:59 and change 3 times. 1 1/4 was not a problem for Fager. Now drop back to a mile (8 furlongs), I really believe Fager would beat Secretariat. I'm not saying Secretariat couldn't win, but I think he would have had a real tough time with Dr. Fager. Now at a 1 1/2 (12furlongs), I see Secretariat just rolling away. Both are Great Ones.
ML- I just watched the '74 Carter. Impressive, you're right, but I've persuaded you to change for 8 out of 10 to 50/50, so I'm making progress. Just kiddin', my friend. I saw Secretariat (in person) in the Preakness and Belmont. 6/9/73 is the most amazing thing that I ever saw, and will always be. But, don't forget, Mr. Prospector was much better as a sire than Forego. LOL! What do I know? I was touting War Pass and a triple crown winner and was certain that Big Brown would win the Belmont!
I think you're both right. I'm a Secretariat girl, but might as well face what is possible. What Nack says in Talkin'Horses Q/A's, the 2007 I think on Blood Horse, is people don't realize how fast Sec cld be bec he won at classic distances. In The Hopeful as 2 yr old he did a 1/4 in 22. To the question w/Ruffian, Nack thinks at 2 yrs at 5 1/2-6 she'd beat any horse, but as you say, ahh, add a 1/4 mile. But he thought he'd beat Dr. Fager doing anything, unless he doesn't know Dr.'s fractions(?!)
4/06 cont 2. You are the experts, what do you think of last pt of statement: "By the way, one horse who rarely gets mentioned in conversation as a deserving member of the upper pantheon of modern horses is Kelso. He was a magnificent racehorse. Jockey Eddie Arcaro once told me that Kelso was the greatest racehorse he ever rode. "What about Citation?" I asked him. What Arcaro replied, word for word, was this: "Kelso would have beaten the s**t out of Citation!"
What you say about tail swishing is correct. But I've seen horses throw their tail up when hit with the stick,those horses weren't tired,they just resented getting hit. Some horses will just prop when hit with the stick. Fager threw up his tail every time baeza hit him,he just detested the stick. I had a mare at the track who would do all these things if hit. In workouts no less.
Hi, was reading comments and thought you'd like this fm 5/07 BH 'Talkin Horses w/Bill Nack Q/A: Q/ In a world of what if's who wins in Dr. Fager/Secretariat at a flat mile?A/I think Secretariat beats Dr. Fager doing anything. Most people don't realize how truly fast Secretariat was because he became a legend winning at classic distances, but Turcotte always said that Secretariat was the fastest pure running machine he'd ever been on, regardless of distances, cont.
@rscarbro100 What made Fager great was also the thing that at times got him in trouble. That being his fierce will to win,and his idea that the lead was his to have. Sec was more layed back in that respect. But I think in a one on one contest at any distance up to 10 furlongs,Fager would give Big Red everything he wanted and then some. Trust me I rever both of them. Fager was the prototypical match racehorse.
Once again you missed the point I'm trying to make, FAGER DID EAT HEDEVAR FOR BREAKFAST. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE SLEW WOULD NOT HAD TO DEAL WITH A CLOSING TYPE HORSE OF THE CALIBER OF DAMASCUS. ALSO FAGER DID SHOW THE ABILITY TO RATE ON MANY OCCASIONS,THE STATEMENT THAT HE COULDN'T RATE IS JUST NOT RIGHT. LOOK AT THE GOTHAM VIDEO THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A HORSE RATING JUST OFF THE PACE. NOTE HEDEVAR IS NOT THERE, GUESS WHAT THE RESULT WAS?
@DrFagersGhost Damascus was a horse who had to have a fast pace,and a rank Fager(thus the reason for Hedevar) to beat Fager. One on one Damascus was forced to be the one to try to crack Fager,and that was something he never did. Was Damascus a bad horse? Of course not,remember Damascus was not dependent on a rabbit in his races without Fager. And Fager would have shrugged off the challenge of hedevar,if Damascus wasn't present ,no matter how fast they went!
I have a question. The announcer said Dr. Fager wouldn't let anyone get away from him without him challenging that horse(esp. w/the rabbits). I think he said "rated". Does that mean Dr.Fager is little more than a well-primed missle on hooves, not listening to the jockey? Or did jockey have orders to let D.F. do as he pleases. I ask because I've heard stories of other great horses who seem to "think" about their run.
I respect everyones opinion on here,but in my opinion Dr Fager on dirt would have been extremely tough to deal with from 6 furlongs to 10 furlongs. That includes any horse you care to compare him to. He was a once in a lifetime kind of racehorse. One on one,I don't see many having much of a shot,remember a record of winning at a 10 furlongs(at age 3 and 4) in 1:59 and change,I believe he did it 3 times,set a NWR at 8 furlongs in 1:32 1/5,under 134 lbs.,capable of blazing 6 furlongsin 1:07,WOW!
@711ATOM No offense but we really don't know how Fager would have fared beyond 10 furlongs. Thats because he never ran beyond 10 furlongs. The only horse to have ever benefited from employing a rabbit was Damascus. Thats because he was a great TB in his own right. But I would put my money on Dr. Fager vs Damascus going any distance in a eye to eye contest with no pacemakers employed! In my humble opinion,Fager was the prototypical match race running machine!
I did not say that Shoe didn't admire Damascus(hell I admire him to) what I said was that in the racing business those jocks and trainers always say what they think the owners want to hear. Do you really think that Whiteley would have kept Shoe on Damascus if he had said he needed the rabbit? I hate to tell you this, you need to really look at the 4 races they ran against each other.
Once again I must say Dr. Fager was in numerous races with wicked fractions, but only the Damascus/Hedevar entry ever really bothered him. That tells me that Damascus was his only real rival(with the rabbit of course). Otherwise "The Doc" just sailed on down the lane. Ruffian was so far ahead in most of her races a rabbit wouldn't have done any good. It's kinda hard to compare horses who never ran against each other.
In terms of pure running ability, I would give the advantage to Dr. Fager. But the temperment of a horse is also part of the equation. Is a horse too rank or uncontrollable? A horse that could not be rated and could not avoid a speed duel with a rabbit is a horse with an exploitable flaw. And exploiting it is perfectly fair imo. In any event, both great horses.
Trust me Baeza was really trying to restrain Dr. Fager. But when you have guys coming out of the gate like a Quarterhorse race with the hootin and hollerin it was impossible to keep him back. The one thing that made him great was sometimes his downfall
I agree with you on all counts. Like I've said before I really believe that Dr. Fager would beat Secretariat at 1 1/4. At a mile, I just don't see Secretariat beating him. People now days do not understand what a freak this horse was. Nerud said hecould have run his world record mile race 1:30 and change. That was no idle boast, the chart said he won with something left. Baeza was actually easing him up,and he never moved a muscle on him. He said he had no idea he was going that fast.
Both horses have similar temperament, being dominant in nature(generally the great horses are the boss of the herd). I believe the tactics were very similar, if either horse was left to dictate things they would be impossible to catch. They presented huge tactical problems,1.If you go with them your cooked 2.If you lay back you can't catch them,hence the existence of the "rabbit"
Those fractions in the Belmont were unreal. His daddy Bold Ruler,who was pressed by a rabbit named Bold Nero,he ran the 6 furlongs in a rapid time and was almost walking at the end. They feared Secretariat was reliving the sins of his father. 99.9 % of all racehorses would stop just like that. Unable to keep a steady supply of oxygen to the blood. He was an incredible race horse.
I don't think a rabbit would work very well against Secretariat. Just to strong of a horse. Could you image a rabbit against him in the belmont. That rabbit horse would have died of a heart attack before he got to the 1 1/4 distance.(smile) The Dr. was truly a great horse. I am very impressed.
I forgot to add the quotes in this one too. This is ALL Nack's comments, not my knowledge or opinion. I've just been learning a lot in past 2 yrs about racing. Barbaro's fight rekindled my love for Secretariat, Ruffian, etc.
Your are correct about their running styles. But Fager was much much more than a sprinter. Fager's style created distinct tactical problems for his opponents. Secretariat was not susceptable to rabbits. But in a 2 horse race,Fager in my mind had the advantage at 1 mile. Thats not far enough for Sec's big heart to show any advantage. At a 1 1/4,it is a lot closer,but remember that Fager ran that distance 3 times in 1:59 & change,therefore he has most definitely got a real chance. No shot a 12 F.
IMO Fager might have been better sprinter than Secretariat. Secretariat had a well known habit of keeping is rear end against the back of the starting gate and he generally broke dead last and made blazing runs past the rest of the field as races progressed. Fager was a front runner so their styles were exactly opposite. Big Red's splits got faster every quarter including in his 31 length Belmont victory. Fager was great but I think Secretariat would beat him most times at 1 1/4 and 1 1/2.
I'm very aware of who Damascus was, do you not see the plain truth,you just said it yourself,that Damascus only had Hedevar in 2 of his 32 career starts. Wouldn't you know,Dr Fager was in both races,I believe that is proof that Whiteley knew he needed a rabbit to beat Dr. Fager.
You need to get in touch with reality,look at the one one meetings. Against a horse of the caliber of Fager, Damascus just didn't have the running style to stay with Fager. Remember every horse who tried to go with Fager got fried, and that is a fact,look it up!
While I agree that Dr. Fager was the better horse, I think that some of the comments deriding Damascus are much over done. I have been doing some reading up on Dr. Fager, and was surprised by how measured Charles Hatton's assessment of him was; Mr. Hatton seems to be in the Damascus camp. Today a horse like Dr. Fager would be a god (bullet to a mile, four times {i think} under 2 mins. at a 1 1/4). Damacus was clearly longer (Belmont, Jockey Club Gold, etc.) and that use to count for a lot.
Interestingly Shoemaker rode Dr Fager in that race(he actually rode him a couple times). Nerud and Shoemaker had a good working relationship. Strangely Shoemaker didn't fit the horse. According to Nerud he wasn't strong enough to control Fager. Ycaza and Baeza were better fits for Fager. Shoemaker was one of the very best ,but not on "The Doc".
What does the fact Fager never went over 10 furlongs have to do with anything. As I said before one on one Fager would beat anything as far as you want to go! 10 furlongs in 1:59 & change tells me he could run all day.
bon 1042, I respectfully disaagree. I see a match any distance up to 1 1/4 atight one. I favor Dr Fager up to that distance,because he ran 1:59 and change routinely. At a mile well I don't see him losing at all. 1 1/4 it would be close, now at 1 1/2 I see secretariats large heart paying dividends. In my opinion both great race horses.
My main point is that Dr. Fager was only susceptable to one horse, Damascus,when his rabbit was entered. Every other race in Fager's career it just made no difference to him at all. He just ran them straight into the ground. Meaning Damascus was the only horse who ever had a chance to beat him. No other horse could even pray that they had a slight chance against him. THAT IS A FACT! Successor beat him at 2, if you think in your right mind that he was better than Fager you outta of your mind.
I always hated Damascus and Saint Laim because they win with rabbits. Sure they were great horses and all but i feel it didnt show their true ability if they need to *cheat* to win. I call it cheating even though its not. PS- The ten greatest horses since the 60s. Colts only no fillys. 1) Ghost Zapper 2) Secretariat 3) Seattle Slew 4) Affirmed 5) Spectacular Bid 6) Point Given 7) Cigar 8) Giants Causeway (Turf) 9) Sunday Silence 10) Mineshaft
I respect your opinion, but I think that, at their best, Dr. Fager would have beaten Forego 10 out of 10 times going any distance. He would have been competitive with Secretariat, Man 'o War or any horse up to 1 1/8. Nevertheless, like I said, I respect your opinion and share your interest in racing!
The 60's.....what an incredible decade for
horse racing!
Two great horses that actually raced, with high weights, as close as 16 days between races. I don't think we'll ever see anymore.
As years have gone by, I am thankful that I no longer ever say which horse was better, and can simply enjoy the fact that I was alive to have seen them both. BRIAN
I saw the good Doctor run at Rockingham Park in Salem, NH. Set a track record
in the easiest way. GREAT horse!
You are right on the mark! I've always considered Dr. Fager the greatest pure racehorse in history!
4/06 cont. The other Triple Crown winner I love, though never saw, was Count Fleet---a true freak of nature. But Slew was a monster. I've always said that one of the greatest races of all time would feature three horses at Belmont Park going a flat mile: Seattle Slew, Dr. Fager, and Swaps. Three true milers going at it with the sun shining and flags flying. What a horse race.
i was looking for a Dr.Fager video for a long time.
thanks cf1970 thanks alot
You actually hit the nail on the head on one point. You mentioned Fager was a fierce competitor,that is what all the great ones had.
"The Doc" was in my mind the perfect match race horse, no horse ever survived going with him for the lead,and that includes the great Damascus. I've had previous debates on this video in the past. He was the ultimate front running destroyer,he could go 10F in 1:59 & change, 7F 1;20 & change,& carry 130+lbs. This is my ideal racehorse.
Wish these races hadn't been before my time. Magnificent. Johnnie Nerud -- what a horseman, what a gentleman. One of the nicest men I ever met.
I never realized how great a horse Dr. Fager was. Even when Hedevar was in there to soften him up on the front end, he was still running gamely down the stretch. And with 135 pounds!
Great commentary. Monsters, all!!!
A superb find! Someone should colorize it. Thanx for posting.
Damascus could NEVER BEAT the immortal Dr. Fager without help......EVER.
Wonderful video, thanks for posting.
That is very true,all good trainers try to put their horses in the right spots. Also they learn about every horse in their barn. Knowing how a horse likes a race to set up for them(pace,position,opposition,and whether to use a rabbit,etc.). It has always been that way.
There was another horse that ran in the sixties before them. He was one of the greatest.
Look at all those cars in the Aqueduct parking lot for the Gotham! For a KD sub-prep! Today you'd see that much only at the Belmont Stakes and even then only if the Triple Crown was on the line!
God bless you for this!!!
I understand, who could fault Bill Nack for loving Secretariat. He spent a large amount of time following that horse around. His book on Secretariat is outstanding.
Damascus's trainer Frank Whiteley knew that Dr.Fager was unbeatable head to head. He put probably the best rabbit in history,One-time world record holder for a mile,in Hedavar to get Fagers blood up. The two times Damascus won he had his rabbit with him. When Damascus had to man up against "The Doc" he got it handed to him.
Dr. Fager and Damascus were both unquestionably great horses. Damascus at his best as a 3yo would come from off the pace and engulf the leaders by the time they were at the top of the stretch with a devastating move.
Dr. Fager seemed to be peaking into an unbeatable horse as a 4yo when he was retired fully sound. I can't imagine betting against him in a match race situation against anyone in history from 6 furlongs to 1/1/4 mile, he just had the look of something never seen before or since as far as sustained speed and will to win. Imagine the times he may have run with the nowadays standard of 124 or so in todays handicaps.
A couple of beasts.
I saw every triple crown race from 1964 until just recently. So I saw Northern Dancer, Damascus, Kauai King, and Majestic Prince. The 60's was a great decade but it proved to me just how difficult it is for a horse to win the Triple Crown. I still think people don't truly understand that very great horses don't win the Triple Crown. That is precisely why I think Affirmed has to be listed by everyone among the top ten of all time. I never saw a more competitive race horse.
Does anyone have a clip of the '68 Washington Park Handicap? That was his greatest run - 1 mile in 1:32 1/5 which is still the world record.
Has there ever been a duel of such heavyweights? Man... How great was Dr. Fager? And how great might he have been if he could have been rated... Unbelievable. Damascus is great too, but I always hated that Damascus' stable used a rabbit. Came to find out that his trainer was Frank Whitely, trainer of the great Ruffian.
I can't believe you never hear about great horses like Damascus. A good example is Colin. He retired undefeated 15-0, and even beat Man O'War's sire Fair Play!
Yes that would be a great race. Seattle Slew was a horse with the rare ability to go real fast early and just keep pouring it on. How about Swaps, he was just incredible in 1956. Swaps set multiple records, he was one of the great ones.
awesome! Thanks.
Mr.Rotz got the oppurtunity to ride "The Doc" once. After just inhaling Kissin George(a pretty good sprinter himself), Rotz commented that horse was a freak! Need I say more?
@funshipM174 I politely disagree. If we remove "rabbits", then we would also have to re-examine jockey strategy, such as "floating horses wide" and "pinning horses down on the hedge" and "boxing horses in." The end result is which horse will win under the allowed rules. Even "Match Races" really do not prove which horse is better. I appreciate these two horses as equally great, now. In the '60s, I chose sides. Now, I just marvel at the greatness we saw for those years. Thank you.
@BE109 Hedevar did in fact hold the world record for one week in 1966, which Buckpasser broke winning the Arlington Classic in 1:32 3/5, which is the record Dr. Fager would break in the Washington Park Handicap when that was run at a mile in 1968.
Dr. Fager was a very fierce competiter, his burning will to win was sometimes used against him. John Nerud struggled with the idea of just letting him go. Sometimes Dr. Fager would rate somewhat,this sometimes gave Nerud the hope he might relax and not chase rabbits. Finally, the only time it ever cost him was the 2 times Whiteley put Hedevar(who once held the world record for a mile) to run as a rabbit for Damascus. Otherwise no horse could survive the punishment Dr. Fager dished out.
Greenwolfe Green What people I think don't realize is how great the 1967 crop of three year olds really was. The four Damascus-Dr. Fager meetings (including the 1967 Woodward, which could be considered the biggest non-Triple Crown race of the past 50 years and earned the "Race of the Century" status even if I think that title really belongs to Forego's Marlboro Cup nine years later when he carried 137 pounds) that are shown here were stellar and showed Dr. Fager clearly was the best horse up to 1 1/4 Miles. It's a shame Nerud did not try Dr. Fager beyond that distance, it would have been very interesting if he and Damascus had met in the two-mile Jockey Club Gold Cup and Damascus did not have Hedevar (a one-time mile world record holder) to help him in that.
Makes sense to me, just passing on Bill Nack's comments fm 'Talkin Horses Q&A. What about fact that in the 1 1/2 mi Belmont in which they all thought he was going "too damn fast" his 3/4 mi time was 1:09 4/5 and the broke his own Derby time doing 1:59 at 1 1/4 mi?
2.cont. and that, in a match race against Dr. Fager, he would run head and head with him until the turn for home and then, with that giant heart pumping Secretariat home, would draw away to win it. The really great match race is Dr. Fager and Seattle Slew at a flat mile, Belmont Park, 126 pounds each..
How do you see that one?
Wow! That was great. Do you have the 1962 Travers with Jaipur and Ridan? That was one of the best races I ever saw, but I can't find it on TH-cam....
Well no one is wrong, this is of course just a discussion of great horses. I hold all 3 in high regard. In fact I believe Ruffian was the greatest racemare of all. She could have very well disposed of the "Good Doctor"and "Big Red". That is why it is so much fun to discuss these TB's. Bill Nack is of course entitled to his opinion,the point being someone else just as qualified,like Nerud,Baeza,Alan Porter could give just as convincing evidence for Dr. Fager.
my grandpa's fave jockey was shoemaker!! a real great jockey!!
I agree with you on Sec winning at a 1 1/2,but at a 1 1/4 I think it would have a close fought deal,finish time probably in 1:59 & change.
Dr Fager, Damascus, Buckpasser, are you kidding me? Perhaps the three best horses to be racing at the same time ever. There are those who would dismiss Damascus because he used a rabbit twice to beat the Dr, but he was a monster in his own right. While Secretariat probably wouldn't be able to run away from any these horses at a mile, I suspect he would prevail nonetheless, and absolutely dominate at longer distances. As the Belmont, Preakness, and other races demonstrated, there wasn't a rabbit fast enough to soften him up over any distance.
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I agree with you about Fager on all counts,but secretariat wasn't a 100% against Onion on that day. He had been battling a low grade fever coming up to the race. Later he inhaled Onion(and many others) in the Marlboro Cup. I do believe that Fager could beat anyone going head to head.
In my opinion The Good Doctor was the best of both. If it hadn't been for the rabbit, he may have prevailed in all the 4 races, but that's part of racing. The fact is that they were both true champions, true superhorses
I believe Dr. Fager was the ultimate match race horse. I do believe that Seattle Slew would have given him a rough time. In the end I think the "Doc" would have gone on to win. He was a freak!
and this fm 4/06 'Talkin Horses w/Nack
Q/ Apart from Secretariat, of course, which Triple Crown winner do you consider the best?
Nack:I think Seattle Slew was one of the greatest racehorses of all time, and I suspect that he would have given Secretariat his greatest competition.
Sans rabbit, the good Dr. wins every time.
@BE109 I agree that Dr. Fager was the better horse, as Braulio Baeza said "Dr. Fager could beat Damascus even in his sleep." However he also said "He was a real free-running horse. I rated him a few times, but he resented it and he fought me." Physically going more than 10 furlongs isn't the problem (weight sure wouldn't be a problem!) but I think to much of a pace could be (I not talking about a rabbit, just some speed in moderate to big field).
Shoemaker was truly great, but he was saying that so he would not get taken off Damascus. Dr. Fager would crush any horse head to head!
I'm not saying rabbits should be outlawed. Also Buckpasser did use a rabbit (Great Power,I think),but that rabbit packed it in pretty early in the in the 2 races with Fager. Alas you know by now how I feel!
Their times were very comparable. 1:59 and change. Dr. Fager did it in the Surburban H. against his great rival Damascus. Fager ran the 10 furlongs in 1:59 and change 3 times. 1 1/4 was not a problem for Fager. Now drop back to a mile (8 furlongs), I really believe Fager would beat Secretariat. I'm not saying Secretariat couldn't win, but I think he would have had a real tough time with Dr. Fager. Now at a 1 1/2 (12furlongs), I see Secretariat just rolling away. Both are Great Ones.
CF-you do it again!
Thanks
ML- I just watched the '74 Carter. Impressive, you're right, but I've persuaded you to change for 8 out of 10 to 50/50, so I'm making progress. Just kiddin', my friend.
I saw Secretariat (in person) in the Preakness and Belmont. 6/9/73 is the most amazing thing that I ever saw, and will always be. But, don't forget, Mr. Prospector was much better as a sire than Forego. LOL!
What do I know? I was touting War Pass and a triple crown winner and was certain that Big Brown would win the Belmont!
I think you're both right. I'm a Secretariat girl, but might as well face what is possible. What Nack says in Talkin'Horses Q/A's, the 2007 I think on Blood Horse, is people don't realize how fast Sec cld be bec he won at classic distances. In The Hopeful as 2 yr old he did a 1/4 in 22. To the question w/Ruffian, Nack thinks at 2 yrs at 5 1/2-6 she'd beat any horse, but as you say, ahh, add a 1/4 mile. But he thought he'd beat Dr. Fager doing anything, unless he doesn't know Dr.'s fractions(?!)
4/06 cont 2. You are the experts, what do you think of last pt of statement: "By the way, one horse who rarely gets mentioned in conversation as a deserving member of the upper pantheon of modern horses is Kelso. He was a magnificent racehorse.
Jockey Eddie Arcaro once told me that Kelso was the greatest racehorse he ever rode.
"What about Citation?" I asked him.
What Arcaro replied, word for word, was this: "Kelso would have beaten the s**t out of Citation!"
What you say about tail swishing is correct. But I've seen horses throw their tail up when hit with the stick,those horses weren't tired,they just resented getting hit. Some horses will just prop when hit with the stick. Fager threw up his tail every time baeza hit him,he just detested the stick. I had a mare at the track who would do all these things if hit. In workouts no less.
wait i dont get the whole "rabbit" thing...why would you try to keep up with the rabbit knowing its just gonna tire itself out
Hi, was reading comments and thought you'd like this fm 5/07 BH 'Talkin Horses w/Bill Nack Q/A: Q/ In a world of what if's who wins in Dr. Fager/Secretariat at a flat mile?A/I think Secretariat beats Dr. Fager doing anything. Most people don't realize how truly fast Secretariat was because he became a legend winning at classic distances, but Turcotte always said that Secretariat was the fastest pure running machine he'd ever been on, regardless of distances, cont.
@rscarbro100 What made Fager great was also the thing that at times got him in trouble. That being his fierce will to win,and his idea that the lead was his to have. Sec was more layed back in that respect. But I think in a one on one contest at any distance up to 10 furlongs,Fager would give Big Red everything he wanted and then some. Trust me I rever both of them. Fager was the prototypical match racehorse.
Remember that Southern California racetracks are a bit faster than those on the east coast.
@Tigertail1717 Mr. Charles Hatton agreed with you. Fantastic horse.
Once again you missed the point I'm trying to make, FAGER DID EAT HEDEVAR FOR BREAKFAST. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE SLEW WOULD NOT HAD TO DEAL WITH A CLOSING TYPE HORSE OF THE CALIBER OF DAMASCUS. ALSO FAGER DID SHOW THE ABILITY TO RATE ON MANY OCCASIONS,THE STATEMENT THAT HE COULDN'T RATE IS JUST NOT RIGHT. LOOK AT THE GOTHAM VIDEO THAT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A HORSE RATING JUST OFF THE PACE. NOTE HEDEVAR IS NOT THERE, GUESS WHAT THE RESULT WAS?
@DrFagersGhost Damascus was a horse who had to have a fast pace,and a rank Fager(thus the reason for Hedevar) to beat Fager. One on one Damascus was forced to be the one to try to crack Fager,and that was something he never did. Was Damascus a bad horse? Of course not,remember Damascus was not dependent on a rabbit in his races without Fager. And Fager would have shrugged off the challenge of hedevar,if Damascus wasn't present ,no matter how fast they went!
I have a question. The announcer said Dr. Fager wouldn't let anyone get away from him without him challenging that horse(esp. w/the rabbits). I think he said "rated". Does that mean Dr.Fager is little more than a well-primed missle on hooves, not listening to the jockey? Or did jockey have orders to let D.F. do as he pleases. I ask because I've heard stories of other great horses who seem to "think" about their run.
I respect everyones opinion on here,but in my opinion Dr Fager on dirt would have been extremely tough to deal with from 6 furlongs to 10 furlongs. That includes any horse you care to compare him to. He was a once in a lifetime kind of racehorse. One on one,I don't see many having much of a shot,remember a record of winning at a 10 furlongs(at age 3 and 4) in 1:59 and change,I believe he did it 3 times,set a NWR at 8 furlongs in 1:32 1/5,under 134 lbs.,capable of blazing 6 furlongsin 1:07,WOW!
@711ATOM No offense but we really don't know how Fager would have fared beyond 10 furlongs. Thats because he never ran beyond 10 furlongs. The only horse to have ever benefited from employing a rabbit was Damascus. Thats because he was a great TB in his own right. But I would put my money on Dr. Fager vs Damascus going any distance in a eye to eye contest with no pacemakers employed! In my humble opinion,Fager was the prototypical match race running machine!
I did not say that Shoe didn't admire Damascus(hell I admire him to) what I said was that in the racing business those jocks and trainers always say what they think the owners want to hear. Do you really think that Whiteley would have kept Shoe on Damascus if he had said he needed the rabbit? I hate to tell you this, you need to really look at the 4 races they ran against each other.
Once again I must say Dr. Fager was in numerous races with wicked fractions, but only the Damascus/Hedevar entry ever really bothered him. That tells me that Damascus was his only real rival(with the rabbit of course). Otherwise "The Doc" just sailed on down the lane. Ruffian was so far ahead in most of her races a rabbit wouldn't have done any good. It's kinda hard to compare horses who never ran against each other.
In terms of pure running ability, I would give the advantage to Dr. Fager. But the temperment of a horse is also part of the equation. Is a horse too rank or uncontrollable? A horse that could not be rated and could not avoid a speed duel with a rabbit is a horse with an exploitable flaw. And exploiting it is perfectly fair imo. In any event, both great horses.
Trust me Baeza was really trying to restrain Dr. Fager. But when you have guys coming out of the gate like a Quarterhorse race with the hootin and hollerin it was impossible to keep him back. The one thing that made him great was sometimes his downfall
I agree with you on all counts. Like I've said before I really believe that Dr. Fager would beat Secretariat at 1 1/4. At a mile, I just don't see Secretariat beating him. People now days do not understand what a freak this horse was. Nerud said hecould have run his world record mile race 1:30 and change. That was no idle boast, the chart said he won with something left. Baeza was actually easing him up,and he never moved a muscle on him. He said he had no idea he was going that fast.
Both horses have similar temperament, being dominant in nature(generally the great horses are the boss of the herd). I believe the tactics were very similar, if either horse was left to dictate things they would be impossible to catch. They presented huge tactical problems,1.If you go with them your cooked 2.If you lay back you can't catch them,hence the existence of the "rabbit"
Respectfully, that DQ was shaky to say the least,but oh well it happened.
Those fractions in the Belmont were unreal. His daddy Bold Ruler,who was pressed by a rabbit named Bold Nero,he ran the 6 furlongs in a rapid time and was almost walking at the end. They feared Secretariat was reliving the sins of his father. 99.9 % of all racehorses would stop just like that. Unable to keep a steady supply of oxygen to the blood. He was an incredible race horse.
I don't think a rabbit would work very well against Secretariat. Just to strong of a horse. Could you image a rabbit against him in the belmont. That rabbit horse would have died of a heart attack before he got to the 1 1/4 distance.(smile) The Dr. was truly a great horse. I am very impressed.
I believe that was the last time Ycaza rode him. That DQ was pretty shaky It didn't appear that In Reality was bothered.
I forgot to add the quotes in this one too. This is ALL Nack's comments, not my knowledge or opinion. I've just been learning a lot in past 2 yrs about racing. Barbaro's fight rekindled my love for Secretariat, Ruffian, etc.
Your are correct about their running styles. But Fager was much much more than a sprinter. Fager's style created distinct tactical problems for his opponents. Secretariat was not susceptable to rabbits. But in a 2 horse race,Fager in my mind had the advantage at 1 mile. Thats not far enough for Sec's big heart to show any advantage. At a 1 1/4,it is a lot closer,but remember that Fager ran that distance 3 times in 1:59 & change,therefore he has most definitely got a real chance. No shot a 12 F.
IMO Fager might have been better sprinter than Secretariat. Secretariat had a well known habit of keeping is rear end against the back of the starting gate and he generally broke dead last and made blazing runs past the rest of the field as races progressed. Fager was a front runner so their styles were exactly opposite. Big Red's splits got faster every quarter including in his 31 length Belmont victory. Fager was great but I think Secretariat would beat him most times at 1 1/4 and 1 1/2.
I'm very aware of who Damascus was, do you not see the plain truth,you just said it yourself,that Damascus only had Hedevar in 2 of his 32 career starts. Wouldn't you know,Dr Fager was in both races,I believe that is proof that Whiteley knew he needed a rabbit to beat Dr. Fager.
A match race between Dr Fager & Secretariat would be sensational! I wouldn't wager on that one! Two incredible racehorses!
Dr. Fager was BY FAR the better horse. Damascus needed help from rabbits to win. I call that cheating.
You need to get in touch with reality,look at the one one meetings. Against a horse of the caliber of Fager, Damascus just didn't have the running style to stay with Fager. Remember every horse who tried to go with Fager got fried, and that is a fact,look it up!
While I agree that Dr. Fager was the better horse, I think that some of the comments deriding Damascus are much over done. I have been doing some reading up on Dr. Fager, and was surprised by how measured Charles Hatton's assessment of him was; Mr. Hatton seems to be in the Damascus camp. Today a horse like Dr. Fager would be a god (bullet to a mile, four times {i think} under 2 mins. at a 1 1/4). Damacus was clearly longer (Belmont, Jockey Club Gold, etc.) and that use to count for a lot.
Interestingly Shoemaker rode Dr Fager in that race(he actually rode him a couple times). Nerud and Shoemaker had a good working relationship. Strangely Shoemaker didn't fit the horse. According to Nerud he wasn't strong enough to control Fager. Ycaza and Baeza were better fits for Fager. Shoemaker was one of the very best ,but not on "The Doc".
What does the fact Fager never went over 10 furlongs have to do with anything. As I said before one on one Fager would beat anything as far as you want to go! 10 furlongs in 1:59 & change tells me he could run all day.
bon 1042, I respectfully disaagree. I see a match any distance up to 1 1/4 atight one. I favor Dr Fager up to that distance,because he ran 1:59 and change routinely. At a mile well I don't see him losing at all. 1 1/4 it would be close, now at 1 1/2 I see secretariats large heart paying dividends. In my opinion both great race horses.
no one horse could beat dr fager doing ANYTHING
Dr Fager vs Cigar vs Northern Dancer vs Spectacular Bid vs Ribot vs Frankel vs Secretariat that race would be Gr 1 all the way!!
My main point is that Dr. Fager was only susceptable to one horse, Damascus,when his rabbit was entered. Every other race in Fager's career it just made no difference to him at all. He just ran them straight into the ground. Meaning Damascus was the only horse who ever had a chance to beat him. No other horse could even pray that they had a slight chance against him. THAT IS A FACT! Successor beat him at 2, if you think in your right mind that he was better than Fager you outta of your mind.
I always hated Damascus and Saint Laim because they win with rabbits. Sure they were great horses and all but i feel it didnt show their true ability if they need to *cheat* to win. I call it cheating even though its not. PS- The ten greatest horses since the 60s. Colts only no fillys.
1) Ghost Zapper
2) Secretariat
3) Seattle Slew
4) Affirmed
5) Spectacular Bid
6) Point Given
7) Cigar
8) Giants Causeway (Turf)
9) Sunday Silence
10) Mineshaft
HATE rabbits
in my humble opinion Damascus was the better of the two.
I respect your opinion, but I think that, at their best, Dr. Fager would have beaten Forego 10 out of 10 times going any distance.
He would have been competitive with Secretariat, Man 'o War or any horse up to 1 1/8. Nevertheless, like I said, I respect your opinion and share your interest in racing!