Hey, I also ride my Time ADHX with rims with an internal width of 25mm and Pirelli 30mm tyres. I was sceptical too at first but after doing some research I figured out it is the way to go for modern road bikes. And I have to say it rides super good, super comfortable yet fast and tons of grip in the corner.
Wider rim and tire options are always WELCOME in my opinion. Good thing my gravel frame can handle 60mm Max tire size! 😎💯👍 I'm using a carbon rim with 30mm internal width and Oh Boy I am so happy out on the single track and fire roads 🥳 (running a 29x2.25 Continental Race King rubbers) AWESOME! 💯
I’m a huge fan of wider rims and adopted wider rims absolutely loved it when Derby released their rims and data about wider rims. I went wider on my mountain bike rims and currently use i35,i40 and i45 rims with 29x2.5” and 2.6 plus sometimes 2.8” tires. Yes I have some i30mm and like running 29x2.4 and 2.5” on those rims. As for gravel, I have been using mountain bike rims, specifically the Velocity Blunt SS i26.6mm. This led me to purchase the Zipp XPLR 101 rims as my first carbon rim wheel set for my gravel bikes. I also built up a set of gravel wheels with DT Swiss XM480 rims. So Zipp going wider is no surprise. Btw for the wider rims on mountain bikes getting more rim strikes, my advice is CushCore. I wouldn’t run any of my wheels without these inserts, including my gravel bike wheels.
Interesting. As far as rim strikes as I mention them in the video, I was not focusing on tire damage from pinches (those XPLR SW rims have a reeeeally wide rim wall so that will help there), rather I was thinking of damage to the rim itself because it sticks out compared to the tire. Cush Core won't help prevent that. gg
@@oldguyandabike agreed, I still occasionally damage my wider rims and but I truly value the benefits of higher volume tires and additional traction on many of the tires models I run.
Pretty good review of the current thinking on tires and wheels. No issues there. As we all know different horses for different corses. I for one have been chomping at the bit for someone to push beyond the long standing 25mm group-think on internal widths. One thing is certain, everyone Unbound running 40c or more (98% ime) will benefit from these wheels, period. The distances, gravel conditions, and time in the wind, average speed notwithstanding, make aero and compliance kings in races like this - for everyone. The point about tire compatibility shouldn't really be a concern, as noted in the review after(!) this point was presented. Goodyear and Schwalbe both make compatible tires. I'd be astonished if more didn't follow. But even if they don't and the available tires end up being terrible, they'll still be better on these rims than 45c on 25mm rims over 200 miles.
I've been running 700x47 Specialized Pathfinder Pro tires on i30mm aluminum lightweight XC rims at 26 psi for my 160 pound weight. Best Gravel tire/wheel combo I have ever ridden. Extremely fast on pavement and gravel while still been surprisingly capable on singletrack. Wide rims and wide tires are "da bomb". i30+ rims and 47-60mm tires are the future. An i32 rim with 2.2-2.4 tire like the 2.35 Thunder Burt, 2.2 Race King, and 2.4 Aspen ST is where we are headed. Your Gravel bike with max clearance for 45mm tires is about to become obsolete. The Pro's are already running 2.2 tires. I could see a time in the future when both Gravel and Mountain bikes come with i32mm rims for everything from an 45mm Gravel tire to a 2.8in Mountain tire.
The problem with that (at the moment) is that racekings have a max internal rim width of 30.5mm! So, unless they revise their specs the tyre “won’t work” (according to sram)
@@frienduro24 I never once suggested that a 2.8 tire should be used for Enduro. What I was trying to explain is that an i32 rim could have a lot of versatility. A 45mm, 550 gm tire on an i32 rim for Gravel. A 2.5in, 1300gm tire on an i32 rim for Enduro. A 2.8in, 1000gm tire on an i32 rim for Bikepacking.
@@marksandoval5361 the pros are running 2.2s on a few races. Definitely not in any mud or faster surfaces, that said…back pre-Covid times the plus sized tire thing on MTBs flopped hard. Just saying
I predict that Zipp's new rim design is going to become a new standard for at least high performance gravel riding and racing. The aero benefits are obvious, of course, and gravel racers are gravitating to wider tires anyway. The days of the 40 mm or less gravel tire are numbered: my own testing indicates that the 45 mm Schwalbe G One RS is faster than the 40 mm version, even on the smoothest gravel roads. I suspect we will see wider rims from other players for gravel as well, instead of the re-purposed road rims people have been using (303 Firecrest, Enve SES 4.5, etc). It looks like road rims are going to end up around 25 mm internal, and gravel may end up around 30-35 mm internal when this all shakes out. New gravel bike designs, even for racing, are going to all have UDH hangers, and are going to accept 50 mm tires. Hats off to Zipp for pushing the boundaries of gravel wheel design, that they are able to produce such a wide and deep wheel at such a reasonable weight is impressive.
@@oldguyandabike I wonder if there is going to be another step bigger. My question is, why is the current standard 25mm and 30mm tires? (the MTB limit makes sense, given that weight is maybe more important for XC and Train, but it does not apply for road or gravel (hits not as big and probably offset by more volume and liners)). A few years ago, it was much narrower. I am not sure the bike companies test or try to design anything much different than the current standard out of business conservatism. What if the new Trek Emonda/Tarmac/Etc came with a frame, rims and tires optimized to 35mm? I bet a lot of people would balk and there would be a risk of a backlash. Hence, they make changes little by little, when probably we could model and test out the optimum now. For that reason, I applaud Zipp for a change that is bigger than incremental, and reflects what they think the best product is.
@@andarenbici On the road there is a place where the weight of the tire and the width work against you...steep climbs and rapid accelerations. On the flat roads at moderate speeds I think you could get away with going a step up, but at some point, much of what people love about the way a road bike moves, handles, turns pedaling input into forward motion...it would dull that. But it would be comfy, secure, and smoother. So, we shall see. Remember that bikes from the big companies are designed way before you see them. Like a couple years. So changes in the market that might be driving things are not immediately answered. And a product managers nightmare? Commit to making a bunch of bikes that are what everyone 'said' they would buy if only they were made, and then they did not. gg
Great video. I appreciate the history lesson and clear explanation. I think the future is wider road tires, and gravel tires. Can the point of the tread be addressed with new tire design? I personally am only going to get a new road bike and wheels once the standard is settled so it can handle around 38mm (like a Rene Herse or a Gravel King Slick). Probably does not matter for anybody that is not competing at a very high level, so I'm sure you are fine on 25mm. I live on 21mm gravel wheels now on semi-slicks, and I don't get dropped (riding mostly road, but not the smoothest). Once I do find people who ride me off their wheel, then maybe I'll make a change, but it would be to faster tires and rims that are aero-optimized wider tires, but I am never riding narrower than a 38mm tire again (maybe a 35 if I were convinced of a big speed benefit).
Yes, as I understand it, there was some design changes in the MTB tire world that addressed wider rims, but I am not that familiar with it. Maybe it was a subtle change(s) over time as new tire molds were made. 38mm would be OK for a lot of what I do on the group rides, but I am not interested in it unless the bike was designed around that. My 30s on 25mm rims are 32mms wide at 60psi and wow...and yet the bike still feels snappy and agile. As tires get bigger, they change the personality of the bike in ways other than just speed. But, I am open to being shown I have more to learn! gg
yeah. I don’t see a penalty but then there is a limit to how low a pressure you can run on a smaller gravel tire till it begins to ping the rim on rocks. Interesting to see how this works out in the marketplace. I think it is overdoing it but then I thought that about 25mm internal road rims. Then again road tires have a different task to perform. gg
@@oldguyandabike Look at it from another perspective-there is very little downside to these IF of course you ride 40-45mm tires. They look good, not crazy expensive, not too heavy. Yeah realistically the gains will be marginal at 2,2- 2,5 bars I imagine but then again, why not? For you and me the only downside is they probably wont be a good fit for ADHX 😂😂
@@tonyg3091 Agreed. I have a vid going up tonight that talks about how it was riding 50s for a few hundred miles. It was interesting and depending on the terrain and priorities, bigger rubber is almost always better off road. But for me, for my typical rides, 50s are a bit much. By the way...I recently mounted up some 2.1 s and man...THAT was the 'Gamechanger' moment.for serious dirt riding for my gravel bike, but it was not a realistic situation long term (fit issues). More on that next week I think. gg
Hi gg, my Pinarello Grevil gravel bike came with Most ultrafast 40 carbon wheels, believe it or not 19mm inner diameter. Well I am running Pirelli Cinturato M 45mm tires tubeless, about 27psi rear tire and 25psi front and its a great setup! 19mm sounds super narrow for gravel but seems to work very well!
Yeah, I think too much is being made of rim width, unless you are really trying to take tire pressures down into the basement. I will say that every time I would go from a 21mm wide gravel wheel and then ride a 25-ish mm wide rim, same bike, same tires, like pressures, the wider rim imparted a feeling in faster paved corners that was noticeable....but after a while, with either wheel, it just felt normal. As well, all the wider rims required slightly less pressure in the tire to ride as well. Small difference, but there. Honestly, I bet if you did a blind test across 19mm vs 21mm vs 25mm that it would be guesswork to tell the difference outside of trying to run very low pressures for very rough conditions. And for many, that is not how they ride their gravel bikes. gg
I’m gunna be running some g one speeds in 29x2.35 on my astral carbon serpentines (30mm IW) for a gravel bike packing race in September. 250 miles and 25,000 feet of climbing will be the test so I’m curious if I can find a balance between running a lower pressure without any side all squirming because I’ll be spending a lot of time on the bike. Im also wondering how quick or slow they will be.
Looking back at CX bikes, take off the canti or vbrake, they were ahead of their time. All this coming from mass popularity in CX a few years back. So many realized why CX riders rode wide tires year around and their CX bike/custom non tubular wheels in off season no need to own many road frames each for unique goals, when the CX frame could do. Frames with slight geo. adjustements, tires, regular wheels, gearing setup -choices, etc small parts now changes can trace it back to that CX peak popularity period pre covid.
You are good for making people think. Just looking at that new SRAM ZIPP 3030 rim and considering the aerodynamic idea I had a thought. There is a great deal of added surface area for a cross wind to catch on. I have no idea how they test this stuff for aerodynamics. I suspect it is with a wind blowing straight on. I see a lot of these newer bikes with a lot more cross sectional surface area than the bikes of an earlier era. It's like a bigger sail. There are more square inches for the cross wind pushing the side of the bike to catch. There will be more force pushing the bike to the side. It doesn't really matter to me. I am not their target customer and this rider is far from being aerodynamic.
These young rim engineers use scare tactics to convince riders they need wider ri.ms if they get wider tires... Let's look and mtb rim history when Tom Ricthey was cutting down 700c Road Race Rims, to fit huge 26 X. 2.125 mountain bike rims. So what the hell are they talking about?!
I think Keith Bontrager was the main guy doing that with Mavic MA40 rims...they were like 17mm? maybe 15mm internal? Wow. Getting a tire mounted on there with a tube big enough to work was a CHORE! But they were light in a world of heavy rims for MTBs. I rode those in the day...not great and no desire to wind the clock back to that, but I think we will settle into a sweet spot at some point for gravel. gg
@@oldguyandabike Hey thanks for your reply, and yes I think you are correct it was Keith not Tom who was converting narrow road rims for MTB tires. You look familiar, were you inside the bike industry? I co-founded onZa back in the day.
@@danielsotelo3942Danny! Dude! Man been a while. I was part of the Curtlo tribe back then. Loved the Porcupine tires and I think I still have some bar ends somewhere. Good times. I hope you are well and still riding! Thanks for your part in the story! gg
Hey, I also ride my Time ADHX with rims with an internal width of 25mm and Pirelli 30mm tyres. I was sceptical too at first but after doing some research I figured out it is the way to go for modern road bikes. And I have to say it rides super good, super comfortable yet fast and tons of grip in the corner.
As I‘m aware of, not only the specific Goodyear - but also all Schwalbe G-One tires are compatible, tested and approved (40s/45s). Cheers
Wider rim and tire options are always WELCOME in my opinion. Good thing my gravel frame can handle 60mm Max tire size! 😎💯👍 I'm using a carbon rim with 30mm internal width and Oh Boy I am so happy out on the single track and fire roads 🥳 (running a 29x2.25 Continental Race King rubbers) AWESOME! 💯
I’m a huge fan of wider rims and adopted wider rims absolutely loved it when Derby released their rims and data about wider rims. I went wider on my mountain bike rims and currently use i35,i40 and i45 rims with 29x2.5” and 2.6 plus sometimes 2.8” tires. Yes I have some i30mm and like running 29x2.4 and 2.5” on those rims.
As for gravel, I have been using mountain bike rims, specifically the Velocity Blunt SS i26.6mm. This led me to purchase the Zipp XPLR 101 rims as my first carbon rim wheel set for my gravel bikes. I also built up a set of gravel wheels with DT Swiss XM480 rims.
So Zipp going wider is no surprise. Btw for the wider rims on mountain bikes getting more rim strikes, my advice is CushCore. I wouldn’t run any of my wheels without these inserts, including my gravel bike wheels.
Interesting. As far as rim strikes as I mention them in the video, I was not focusing on tire damage from pinches (those XPLR SW rims have a reeeeally wide rim wall so that will help there), rather I was thinking of damage to the rim itself because it sticks out compared to the tire. Cush Core won't help prevent that.
gg
@@oldguyandabike agreed, I still occasionally damage my wider rims and but I truly value the benefits of higher volume tires and additional traction on many of the tires models I run.
Pretty good review of the current thinking on tires and wheels. No issues there.
As we all know different horses for different corses. I for one have been chomping at the bit for someone to push beyond the long standing 25mm group-think on internal widths.
One thing is certain, everyone Unbound running 40c or more (98% ime) will benefit from these wheels, period. The distances, gravel conditions, and time in the wind, average speed notwithstanding, make aero and compliance kings in races like this - for everyone.
The point about tire compatibility shouldn't really be a concern, as noted in the review after(!) this point was presented.
Goodyear and Schwalbe both make compatible tires. I'd be astonished if more didn't follow. But even if they don't and the available tires end up being terrible, they'll still be better on these rims than 45c on 25mm rims over 200 miles.
I've been running 700x47 Specialized Pathfinder Pro tires on i30mm aluminum lightweight XC rims at 26 psi for my 160 pound weight. Best Gravel tire/wheel combo I have ever ridden. Extremely fast on pavement and gravel while still been surprisingly capable on singletrack. Wide rims and wide tires are "da bomb". i30+ rims and 47-60mm tires are the future. An i32 rim with 2.2-2.4 tire like the 2.35 Thunder Burt, 2.2 Race King, and 2.4 Aspen ST is where we are headed. Your Gravel bike with max clearance for 45mm tires is about to become obsolete. The Pro's are already running 2.2 tires. I could see a time in the future when both Gravel and Mountain bikes come with i32mm rims for everything from an 45mm Gravel tire to a 2.8in Mountain tire.
I have 27 inner width wheels and 2.35 thunderbolts. rides fantastic, handles very well and still accelerates quickly.
The problem with that (at the moment) is that racekings have a max internal rim width of 30.5mm! So, unless they revise their specs the tyre “won’t work” (according to sram)
You had me until you said 2.8 tires. XC World Cup pros are still running 2.2 to 2.4 max. A 2.8 will be heavy and slow af. Even on an enduro bike
@@frienduro24 I never once suggested that a 2.8 tire should be used for Enduro. What I was trying to explain is that an i32 rim could have a lot of versatility. A 45mm, 550 gm tire on an i32 rim for Gravel. A 2.5in, 1300gm tire on an i32 rim for Enduro. A 2.8in, 1000gm tire on an i32 rim for Bikepacking.
@@marksandoval5361 the pros are running 2.2s on a few races. Definitely not in any mud or faster surfaces, that said…back pre-Covid times the plus sized tire thing on MTBs flopped hard. Just saying
Excellent "bike nerdery" as usual, and while the concerns over "aero-gains" don't apply to this old guy, it's still interesting!
I predict that Zipp's new rim design is going to become a new standard for at least high performance gravel riding and racing. The aero benefits are obvious, of course, and gravel racers are gravitating to wider tires anyway. The days of the 40 mm or less gravel tire are numbered: my own testing indicates that the 45 mm Schwalbe G One RS is faster than the 40 mm version, even on the smoothest gravel roads. I suspect we will see wider rims from other players for gravel as well, instead of the re-purposed road rims people have been using (303 Firecrest, Enve SES 4.5, etc). It looks like road rims are going to end up around 25 mm internal, and gravel may end up around 30-35 mm internal when this all shakes out. New gravel bike designs, even for racing, are going to all have UDH hangers, and are going to accept 50 mm tires.
Hats off to Zipp for pushing the boundaries of gravel wheel design, that they are able to produce such a wide and deep wheel at such a reasonable weight is impressive.
I think you are very likely correct. Well predicted!
gg
@@oldguyandabike I wonder if there is going to be another step bigger. My question is, why is the current standard 25mm and 30mm tires? (the MTB limit makes sense, given that weight is maybe more important for XC and Train, but it does not apply for road or gravel (hits not as big and probably offset by more volume and liners)). A few years ago, it was much narrower. I am not sure the bike companies test or try to design anything much different than the current standard out of business conservatism. What if the new Trek Emonda/Tarmac/Etc came with a frame, rims and tires optimized to 35mm? I bet a lot of people would balk and there would be a risk of a backlash. Hence, they make changes little by little, when probably we could model and test out the optimum now. For that reason, I applaud Zipp for a change that is bigger than incremental, and reflects what they think the best product is.
@@andarenbici On the road there is a place where the weight of the tire and the width work against you...steep climbs and rapid accelerations. On the flat roads at moderate speeds I think you could get away with going a step up, but at some point, much of what people love about the way a road bike moves, handles, turns pedaling input into forward motion...it would dull that.
But it would be comfy, secure, and smoother.
So, we shall see.
Remember that bikes from the big companies are designed way before you see them. Like a couple years. So changes in the market that might be driving things are not immediately answered.
And a product managers nightmare? Commit to making a bunch of bikes that are what everyone 'said' they would buy if only they were made, and then they did not.
gg
Great video. I appreciate the history lesson and clear explanation. I think the future is wider road tires, and gravel tires. Can the point of the tread be addressed with new tire design? I personally am only going to get a new road bike and wheels once the standard is settled so it can handle around 38mm (like a Rene Herse or a Gravel King Slick). Probably does not matter for anybody that is not competing at a very high level, so I'm sure you are fine on 25mm. I live on 21mm gravel wheels now on semi-slicks, and I don't get dropped (riding mostly road, but not the smoothest). Once I do find people who ride me off their wheel, then maybe I'll make a change, but it would be to faster tires and rims that are aero-optimized wider tires, but I am never riding narrower than a 38mm tire again (maybe a 35 if I were convinced of a big speed benefit).
Yes, as I understand it, there was some design changes in the MTB tire world that addressed wider rims, but I am not that familiar with it. Maybe it was a subtle change(s) over time as new tire molds were made.
38mm would be OK for a lot of what I do on the group rides, but I am not interested in it unless the bike was designed around that. My 30s on 25mm rims are 32mms wide at 60psi and wow...and yet the bike still feels snappy and agile. As tires get bigger, they change the personality of the bike in ways other than just speed.
But, I am open to being shown I have more to learn!
gg
For those running 40-45 mm gravel tires these make lot of sense, well done Zipp.
What do you think are the big gains to be had? Just curious.
gg
@@oldguyandabike Not aero for sure. Better cornering at lower pressure is a plus and there is no real weight penalty so why not?
yeah. I don’t see a penalty but then there is a limit to how low a pressure you can run on a smaller gravel tire till it begins to ping the rim on rocks. Interesting to see how this works out in the marketplace. I think it is overdoing it but then I thought that about 25mm internal road rims. Then again road tires have a different task to perform.
gg
@@oldguyandabike Look at it from another perspective-there is very little downside to these IF of course you ride 40-45mm tires. They look good, not crazy expensive, not too heavy. Yeah realistically the gains will be marginal at 2,2- 2,5 bars I imagine but then again, why not?
For you and me the only downside is they probably wont be a good fit for ADHX 😂😂
@@tonyg3091 Agreed. I have a vid going up tonight that talks about how it was riding 50s for a few hundred miles. It was interesting and depending on the terrain and priorities, bigger rubber is almost always better off road. But for me, for my typical rides, 50s are a bit much. By the way...I recently mounted up some 2.1 s and man...THAT was the 'Gamechanger' moment.for serious dirt riding for my gravel bike, but it was not a realistic situation long term (fit issues).
More on that next week I think.
gg
I have 36 tyre on 30 rim, comes out at 38.3 mm. It is as soft as the older configuration 47 tyre on 27 rim. But more aero.
Hi gg, my Pinarello Grevil gravel bike came with Most ultrafast 40 carbon wheels, believe it or not 19mm inner diameter. Well I am running Pirelli Cinturato M 45mm tires tubeless, about 27psi rear tire and 25psi front and its a great setup! 19mm sounds super narrow for gravel but seems to work very well!
Yeah, I think too much is being made of rim width, unless you are really trying to take tire pressures down into the basement. I will say that every time I would go from a 21mm wide gravel wheel and then ride a 25-ish mm wide rim, same bike, same tires, like pressures, the wider rim imparted a feeling in faster paved corners that was noticeable....but after a while, with either wheel, it just felt normal.
As well, all the wider rims required slightly less pressure in the tire to ride as well. Small difference, but there.
Honestly, I bet if you did a blind test across 19mm vs 21mm vs 25mm that it would be guesswork to tell the difference outside of trying to run very low pressures for very rough conditions.
And for many, that is not how they ride their gravel bikes.
gg
I’m gunna be running some g one speeds in 29x2.35 on my astral carbon serpentines (30mm IW) for a gravel bike packing race in September. 250 miles and 25,000 feet of climbing will be the test so I’m curious if I can find a balance between running a lower pressure without any side all squirming because I’ll be spending a lot of time on the bike. Im also wondering how quick or slow they will be.
Sounds like a good test
gg
Looking back at CX bikes, take off the canti or vbrake, they were ahead of their time. All this coming from mass popularity in CX a few years back. So many realized why CX riders rode wide tires year around and their CX bike/custom non tubular wheels in off season no need to own many road frames each for unique goals, when the CX frame could do. Frames with slight geo. adjustements, tires, regular wheels, gearing setup -choices, etc small parts now changes can trace it back to that CX peak popularity period pre covid.
waiting for gravel bikes to have the clearance to use tires that make sense of such a wide wheel (50+ mm or even MTB tires)
A lot of the hand wringing around rim brakes feels like aesthetic sensibilities for stiletto thin wheels+tires being violated.
You are good for making people think. Just looking at that new SRAM ZIPP 3030 rim and considering the aerodynamic idea I had a thought. There is a great deal of added surface area for a cross wind to catch on. I have no idea how they test this stuff for aerodynamics. I suspect it is with a wind blowing straight on. I see a lot of these newer bikes with a lot more cross sectional surface area than the bikes of an earlier era. It's like a bigger sail. There are more square inches for the cross wind pushing the side of the bike to catch. There will be more force pushing the bike to the side.
It doesn't really matter to me. I am not their target customer and this rider is far from being aerodynamic.
These young rim engineers use scare tactics to convince riders they need wider ri.ms if they get wider tires... Let's look and mtb rim history when Tom Ricthey was cutting down 700c Road Race Rims, to fit huge 26 X. 2.125 mountain bike rims. So what the hell are they talking about?!
I think Keith Bontrager was the main guy doing that with Mavic MA40 rims...they were like 17mm? maybe 15mm internal? Wow. Getting a tire mounted on there with a tube big enough to work was a CHORE!
But they were light in a world of heavy rims for MTBs.
I rode those in the day...not great and no desire to wind the clock back to that, but I think we will settle into a sweet spot at some point for gravel.
gg
@@oldguyandabike Hey thanks for your reply, and yes I think you are correct it was Keith not Tom who was converting narrow road rims for MTB tires. You look familiar, were you inside the bike industry? I co-founded onZa back in the day.
@@danielsotelo3942Danny! Dude! Man been a while. I was part of the Curtlo tribe back then. Loved the Porcupine tires and I think I still have some bar ends somewhere. Good times.
I hope you are well and still riding! Thanks for your part in the story!
gg
Lot of members of the Johnny Cash cycling club here in Aus . All dressed in Black.
Really? I have to look that up!
gg