Tractor Pulling Test - Gear Drive VS Hydro-static
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2020
- 800.222.3373 | www.messicks.com | Parts Hotline - 877.260.3528
Kubota Parts - www.messicks.com/vendor/kubota
New Holland Parts - www.messicks.com/vendor/new-ho...
Case IH Parts - www.messicks.com/vendor/case
Service - www.messicks.com/schedule-service
Sales - www.messicks.com/attachment/c...
Messick's Merch - www.messicks.com/part/departm...
Kubota Merch - www.messicks.com/part/departm...
Toys - www.messicks.com/apparel - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
![[UNCUT] รัฐสั่งหยุดปล่อยคลื่น! แต่หยุดพลังปะทุ “น้องหญิง” ไม่ได้ I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RmQh47eIiV0/mqdefault.jpg)
I have to say. This man is very honest. He gives you the truth instead of the marketing pamphlet.
You realize all he is doing here is marketing....?
I find it cheaper to replace the clutch than replacing a transmission that cost almost what a used tractor goes for. Also, I've noticed gear drive trans are much better for heavy work and can last a lifetime if properly maintained.
Doing this test in high range on the hst seems pointless the high range is for driving on the road. Medium or low would be much more interesting
it couldn't be any more stupid to test it in high.. need to test low range against 1st gear....... stupid test comparison.
Agreed.
But having a HST they don’t have any power in any of the three ranges. L3830
My thoughts exactly. What's the purpose of this video really? Is Messick's overstocked with a whole lot of gear drive tractors?
Gear drive is stronger than hydrostatic no matter which range you compare them in. Hydraulic power is not giving direct power to the wheels like a gear will. Hydro is more convenient but gear is stronger. This test is a very valid test and isn’t stupid at all. If you want the conveniences of hydro your going to lose some pulling power but many folks don’t need to pull a lot with a small tractor. That’s why we have options, what works well for one may not for another. There are pros and cons to both drive systems. That’s my opinion, feel free to disagree
@@turbodiesel8651 isn't that kind of a generalization? The miracle of hydraulics us that a hydraulic systen actually _does_ put power from the pump directly to the motor that turns a wheel, with less loss of energy than with a standard drivetrain. In application, you are replacing the drive shaft, awkward u-joints and etc. The pulling power of the vehicle is limited, ultimately, by the quantity of hydraulic fluid it can carry and keep cool. If it were practical to load up the little Kubota with 60 gallons of hydraulic fluid and a couple of coolers, a powerful axial piston pump could be used to drive the wheels and multiple accessories to out perform the gear drive tractor, while still using the same fossils fuel engine.
All that said, since about 2005, ive thought hydraulic drive systems to be the wrong direction. Hydraulic systens are expensive, and it is the nature of liquid to seek more efficient means of travel than that you've selected for it. In other words, they break and are messy polluters. Far better to use a mechanical drivetrain and put your money into researching electric power. The electric tractor is the future.
As for me, I've got a couple of tractors, and both are gear drive and run on fossil fuels.
That was surprising. I have a hydrostatic transmission tractor and got it that way because my property is very hilly and uneven. The hydro transmission made it alot easier to drive around and do work. Now 15 years later I started doing open field mowing and quickly learned the value of a geared tractor.
Uhh... where's the rest of the video, where you put the HST in low range???
All he’d do is spin the tires, that’s why the test was done in high.
Once you spin it's over in my experience. In a hydro machine you shouldn't.
@@brandtwebber5761 they can both pull the same load up until the tires break loose. He should have tested to that point and there would not have been a difference. The tires are the limiting factor.
Unnecessary
You should have done this test on dry pavement or concrete. There is no consistency with grass. The minute you drive over it the traction factor changes. Once a tire spins even the slightest the tire and grass is slippery. Using "clean" dry pavement or concrete with the same air pressure in the tires of both tractors would give a much better apples to apples traction comparison. Regardless, a gear drive tractor will drag around a HST tractor any day.
You test a car on pavement The tractor is meant to work and off road conditions not on pavement.
The test was to show pulling force .not working capability.the tires and ground conditions have to many variables to accurate pulling force
should have done the test with chains wrapped around the tires and anchored to the ground... either tractor in low will simply dig in
I only watched a couple minutes, and was thinking the same thing.
The hydro didn't spin. The gear did. So the gear tractor was at a disadvantage. I've felt the hydro really struggle when pushing a tree. So this test makes sense... and making me thing about my next tractor which i already ordered as hydro. I do like the hydro for brush hogging and loader work. I guess tree crap is once and done.
I'm for gear drive.
I am fortunate to have a L3200 gear drive tractor for discing and bush hog mowing. And a B2301 loader tractor. I prefer the gear drive because of it's ability to work at a set speed while working on food plot's and mowing my 2 miles of trails. But a hydro-static is a much better loader tractor, almost instant direction changes. So you need both! Thanks for the video.
Or get a shuttle I think it’s the best thing since sliced bread, no torque loss, no whine, plus instant direction change.
Yes wish there was a shuttle option, Be awesome if u could get the GST transmission on this size tractor
That high pitch whine drives me crazy on hst.
I use earplugs on tractor anyway
yes I agree... BUT their better for loader and dirt work. I have a L3800 HST. don't like the wine
You'll hear that in the Std. L and MX series. Step up to a Grand L 60 or an older Grand L 40 series and virtually no whine. I don't know how they managed to quieten down the Grand L's like the way they did but they did.
My experience with my kioti tractor is there’s only a high-pitched whine and high range if I’m in four-wheel-drive
Did you put the HST in four-wheel-drive?
BUMMER!! I was looking forward to a tug of war at the end!!
Totally expected the gear drive to win having used both types of tractors. Anyone who’s ever tried to pull a stump out or climb a steep hill or even do tillage chores has experienced this. Can’t beat a HST for loader work or any other back and forth task, though. They both have their place.
Its what i am seeing. I am wondering how hard can you truly push these. I guess that is why we have 6 year warranty, to have peace of mind.
It is awesome you guys go out and play around with these machines and test them out. I can't wait to have a Kubota of my own one day!
I own a gear drive L3901 and love it. Great pulling power. I have a single bottom moldboard plow that it pulls easily, and when i had a 40' high cube storage container delivered the driver asked me if i would drag it off the trailer with my tractor. I didn't think it would, but he was confident. he ended up being right.
I'd like to see you try in the other 2 ranges of the HST and make more of a fair comparison. I feel hydrostatic has both more pull with more tractive effort at the same time. It didn't take much for the gear drive to break the wheels loose and still pull high numbers.
yeah in the same tracks as the hydro. If anything the the hydro had handy cap over the gear and still lost by a mile.
Exactly what I've known for years. The gear drive advantage is great when pulling and also when pulling constantly at high rpm the heat is handled more efficiently by square cut gears and shafts. The hydro units don't handle the heat nearly as good.
I love how blown away you were about that result. I am also suprised it is that much.
Please try the hydro in medium or low range. I'm curious to see if it catches the gear drive at some point?
It won't. The power loss through a hydro system is ever present. A manual, geared system is positive lockup. No power loss. On the hydro drive units there were too many checks on the don't like side of the list when I was looking for a tractor. Power loss was a biggie but that infernal obnoxious high pitched whine was the deal breaker. I was looking for a compact and found a 4wd B2320 with fel that had 71 hours, less than 2 years old for less than half the new price. I only have one complaint, and that is the valve type 3pt system instead of the pick a point that older/other tractors have. But that was just a matter of readjusting the driver(me) lol. Once I figured out how to use it, it was as easy as the old Deutz that my grandfather had that all of us learned to operate. And with the on fender shift/lift/control arrangement that little tractor is sweet to run. I couldn't be happier with it.
@@TheBrushcutter it will, regardless of power loss because the weight and grip of the tractors won't allow even half power to be transmitted to the ground. The tires would slip. This pull off should have been done in the lowest range. It baffles me how he said that he wanted to limit wheel spinning, but the hydro isn't even capable of spinning in high range.
GREGG G DUETZ! Have one with no brakes. It’s a scary ride on a hill! Stays hooked to a 15’ bush hog. If it gets to going a little fast just drop it all the way down and it will stop eventually 😂.
@@anymanusa no way. That's why you saw the gear drive smoke it in high gear.
@@TheBrushcutter Power loss is irrelevant in a test like this. The tires can only transmit so much power to the ground. Once you exceed that limit, the tires slip. As long as the HST has enough power to slip the tires in medium or low range, it would offer the exact same pull number on the scale because at that point the limit is the tires, not the amount of power being delivered by the engine or transmission.
Would like to see what the hydro would do in low range.
Spin the tires, I have a hst new Holland and it will spin all 4 on dry pasture in medium or low at an idle
@@russianacorns8080 our tc33d with hydro is nice but I think it looses a lot of powder through the transmission, with a shuttle shift you can put it in gear and let the clutch out and use the shuttle to take off and save the clutch wear
@@cargotoolshop5319 yeah, I’m replying because no one understands that it would be pointless to do it in low because then it’s a test of tires not transmissions.
@@russianacorns8080 This test *is* a test of the tires, not the transmission. On the geared test he switched to a lower gear and slipped the tires. So he should have done the same thing on the HST. Once the tires are slipping, regardless of transmission, that's it. A geared transmission with slipping tires will pull just as hard as an HST which is slipping, and you can switch either one to a lower gear to achieve that result.
Would have liked to see the HST in low range and in 4WD so it breaks the tires loose like you did the gear drive.
If the gear drive has 300% more pulling power over HST, then all salesmen should mention that when selling a tractor.
I have both and the gear drive for sure has more pulling power
@@rickywoods3101 Gear drive all day every day. No relief valves to open. It's just engine-clutch-gears-tires.
@Robert Black1911 You missed the point. Both tractors were in 4WD and High range exactly to point out that a gear tractor pulls a lot more while the HST can't even spin the wheels and is a noise maker.
Agreed. If you're hooking to a load with a HST, you're in low, not high. I'd be really curious about the peak numbers there. No question to me that if you're pulling/ground engaging almost all of the time a gear is better, but this vid gives the impression that HST can't pull even half of what a gear will.
@@javabean215 Their high end gear ratio is the same between them both. That's why he had them both In high to give them the same load and see which one is more efficient at transferring the power to the ground. if you put them in low without downward pressure they both will just spin
Hi Neil, these comparison videos are some of the most interesting content you put out there. Thanks so much for doing this. I would love to see you do a comparison video on turning radius. That number isn't always clear since Kubota's printed specs often assume wheel braking. I think comparing the BX, B2601, B2650 (or LX2610) would be great, maybe some L's too if you're into that.
I'm glad I watched this video my kubota dealer near me told me kubota doesn't make a gear driven transmission no more because of safety reasons. I'm in Michigan I just may have to go to your guys place and get a 50hp gear shift from you guys. Thank you for the video.
Good stuff man
Also.. We had Small Tractors with Gear drives pulling 110 000 lbs of paper at the Port doing long shore man work... Those tractors had over 23000 hours before they needed clutch replacements. Shuttle shift is a bonus. Nothing beats on a tractor worse then Long Shore man pulling 16 rolls of industrial size paper rolls along with it's trailer.
Great video! Loved the surprise on your face!
That’s awesome , how is this channel not over 100k yet
Gear Drive!
I'm going with the gear drive...
I would have like to seen a 4th gear pull in both hi an lo. As well a pull in all 3 ranges of the hydro
Right on. Compare each tractor in each gear at each range, make a chart, THEN compare. Todd at Project Farm is probably LHAO right now.
Theoretically both tractors spinning the tires with the same weight and grip will pull the exact same. The hydro never broke traction because it was in high range, there is no equivalent to the gear drives 1st gear even in high range. Friction dictates pulling power, the hst was in a range that could not produce the torque required to defeat the friction. This test should have been done in the correct range for both tractors individually. Same weight and HP with the same tires should require the exact same torque to break loose the wheels this is simply a difference in power curves not capabilities.
thats what i was thinking
Neil could you do that same test in low range for both tractors. Love your informational videos. You really have taught me a lot as a new tractor owner.
Thanks, Neil - you've answered (part of) a question I've pondered: "How low is the lowest HST equivalent reduction?" The HST is, philosophically, a fluid-coupled directly- engaging transmission (adjustable constant-volume pump on the input side, constant volume hydraulic motor on the output, fluid is practically incompressible, hence hydroSTATIC, completely unlike the torque converter in a car). At least until the pressure compensator/regulator and then eventually the pressure relief valve steps in to save the day. :-) It's a CVT that uses fluid instead of belts. But... there's a bypass valve in there so it will have a "neutral" when the pedal isn't pressed either way. I've wondered what the equivalent "gear ratio" is when that valve closes and it starts being a transmission. Now we know it's roughly 1/3 as much reduction as a gear drive will give in 1st gear. Thanks! This almost certainly explains provisioning the three-range axle as opposed to the dual-range, too.
Excelent explanation Erick. Could not have said it better myself in high-tech terms. In laymans terms; hydrostatic = = slip-o-matic:: with half of the transmision missing. Hydro's great for rapid back and forth and best at howling,wyning, frequent expensive fluid &filter changes, but best at burning fuel. Shuttle good, relieable,cheep and great at putting power down. And the best of both worlds; The hydralic-power-shuttle. Hands down the clear winner;; if you can afford them and in your right size. Fortunate to have all 3. Great comment for the "tractor gang". Thanks for information.
Throw the HST in Lo, 4wd and see how much closer it is to the gear.. probably wont match it but it’ll be close.
Not when you compare it to the gear in low and 4x4. Just look at hp to drawbar and PTO numbers! You lose ho to the HST drive, same engine HP will always be an orange to tangerine type comparison.
@@coypatton3160 there is literally a 1 hp difference between hst and gear
More like 3hp in these 25 or 30 ish hp machines it makes difference plus you don't have the god awful hst whine and need for high rpm to do any work gear is more efficient and powerful every time
@Coy Patton you lose hp to the pto because there is a lot of fluid inside the hydro.
@@highlanderc keep dreaming! Check the hp difference from engine to PTO on gear vs hst. There is always a greater loss in hst. Where does that hp go? HST! That means there is less to go to traction! Not to mention the need for rpm’s and foot fatigue.
Bottom line there are few places the hst wins very few.
Never change messicks, i love your intro!
I’ve had an old gear-driven Ford which pulled like a beast and I now have a Kubota B2650 that pulls hard too, but probably not quite as hard as the Ford. And I wouldn’t go back for anything. The HST is sufficient for pulling and MUCH better for any kind of loader work or even brush hogging.
I’ve always had a suspicion that gear drives pull a lot harder just because of old farmall tractors I used to play with. They were only 20-30hp but will literally flip themselves trying to pull if theres traction. You gotta be ready for that. I guess there is a clutch slip issue but the gearing is so low your not frying those clutch plates. My opinion, hydro is convenient but you do lose significant power to the ground in small tractors.
I think the gear drive lasts longer than hydrostatic
You need to try them both in the lowest gear they have for a fair comparison. Surely the hydro will pull a lot more than 1100lbs. You probably couldn't even use a turn plow if it won't.
The test wasn't for "the lowest gear" and no one is saying the hydro won't pull more than 1100lbs either. The test is simply to let all you pro-hydro home owners know that the GST will drag your HST around the yard all day long. But you boys don't need it for plowing a field, you only need it for plowing your driveways so doesn't matter right?
@@bonedancer3973 I didn't buy my tractor to be a big time farmer. I plant about 10 acres of deer plots and use it for landscaping, moving dirt, gravel etc. I will work circles around a gear shift tractor doing my landscaping spreading work especially in tight quarters. All in what you need them for. I was pointing out it was a skewed test to favor the geared tractor.
Yea who in there right mind would not try lower range in hydro. I have seen same tractors apples to apples comparison and the only difference was one was hydro and the other gear drive hooked up in tug of war and they just both set there and spin.
@@bonedancer3973 Do a video with both in low gear low range and watch them just sit and spin both of them guaranteed!
I love how Unbiased your channell is. Keep it up. I went with the L2501 HST as I use the loader alot. I just have to get used to the Whiney noise the HST's make. Take care.
Can you get a shuttle shift with the manual transmission
You have any information on the big toolbox that Kubotah has out for the L series of tractors? It fits on the quick hitch?
People it was done in the grass due to that being where the load cell is buried. Its not birried on his parking lot where people can damage it/it be in the way. Also he did the test in high to try and keep from spinning the tires/overloading that load cell. In low gear the gear drive would most likly max out the load cell. The hst would probably be in the upper limits. Is it truly scientific? Well no but its also something to consider.
Good video, and I love my gear drive l4400, but I think the test was a little flawed. When the gear drive started going on the first test, it was jerking around and had time to build a tiny bit of momentum. That momentum could lead to a shock value that reads higher than the actual pulling force. I think this is why the values were much closer on the second test in hi-4. Also, hi-1 would be much more similar to the medium range in the HST model if it is anything like my l4400. In it, lo-4 gives a top speed of 4.2mph, and hi-1 gives a top speed of 4.4mph, meaning they are very similar to each other in final ratios. Considering my gear drive has a top speed in hi-4 of 14.9mph, that means both of those gears are in the bottom 1/3(both less than 30% of the overall top speed/tallest gearing).
Either way, keep up the videos. There has been a lot of very entertaining and also educational information, and I think we all appreciate it.
I havea L3800 gea`r but for your comment on second time closer? Hell He was in 4th low. You have a gear unit and know low in 1st pull pull your head off.
That was fascinating. Despite the results, I’ll stay with my HST. As a novice whose work doesn’t regularly involve ground-engaging equipment, e.g., plows, disks, I love the HST’s ease of operation.
Hydro was meant for mowing your grass, shuttle was made for bucket work, stick shift was made for straight pulling
@First Choice Mechanical remember we are talking about little tractors, not heavy equipment or large tractors, I have used both and I prefer a manual transmission only if it has a shuttle shift, I know that hydro tranny's are great and all, bit again we are talking about budget tractors, not high end fancy stuff that the boss is paying for, but a at home cheaper the better little tractor, if you save some cash and it takes a little bit longer to get your work done, that's what I would do, but I'm old school, stay strong
@@cargotoolshop5319 can’t a shuttle shift do pulling work as well as a stick shift
@@firstchoicemechanical1403 Because hydrostats change directions and speed quickly and effortlessly without any shifting, and are better for loader work like on a skid steer. Excavators already have a massive hydraulic pump to run that boom and stick, so it just makes sense to run the tracks with that as well.
A gear drive tractor is better to run a 15' batwing mower in one direction all day without overheating, and none of the heavy tractors are hydrostat as far as I know, although some large tractors have electric drives.
After having many John Deere and Kubota garden and compacts over 40 years the significant power loss thru the hydo stat was always a trade off for ease of operation. 60 & 70's riding mowers started off with only 5hp engines but were gear drive and did a decent job.
You might have said and I missed it, but are the rear tires ballasted in either machine? Found my L3130 gear drive pulled a lot harder after I refilled the beet juice in both tires (leaky valve stem).
My neighbour had a 24 HP HST tractor. I had a 20 HP shuttle shift. Mine would pull a cord of wood in my trailer up my back mountain with ease, although slowly in 3/12 gear. The bigger HP HST in low range would bog out and stop barely into the hill. Varying the throttle made no difference. I've been told by dealers that HST sacrifices 30% of your HP. So 50% loss in the HST seems like good math in my example.
how much weight can the 3 point handle on the 25hp or the 30 hp with out lifting the front end off the ground
Good review and good results Neil. I've only owned one hydrostatic tractor which is my current tractor. I have to say i prefer the geared transmission. The ever present squall and whining from the hydrostat is very annoying. But, my 11 year old granddaughter cand drive my J.Deere 3025. She'll soon be using the F.E. Loader.
Changing directions fast is paramount for me, mowing and loading I’ll take the HST any day.
Hi, Neal. Cool video. I have a question. I have a 2018 BX2680 and have a blown fuse. I found the fuse box, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how to get the cover off. I've tried moving the clip on the bottom of the box both up and down and nothing works. Can you help me out, please? Thanks!
Most folk today don't really use ground engaging equipment much. Gardens used to utilize a plow and disc harrow. Now they use a PTO tiller. The gear will have more available HP to the PTO than a hydro. A box blade or a land plane use gets back to traction issues more than power issues. For the vast majority of folk hydrostat will continue to be the transmission of choice even though the cost is higher. Thanks for the videos Neil. I appreciate them.
The gear drive would’ve done EVEN BETTER if you eased the throttle on so it took longer to break loose instead of just setting it and going
I'm not surprised I use this same tractor at work and it's super powerful and 4wd works darn good tbh
Great video, that's what I want to see in this channel.
Thank you sir.
By the way you should do the same with smaller and larger machines.
Got a questions. A problem has arisen on my 2016 L2501 with 300 hours. I pulled the lever into 4x4 (it was difficult but I managed) and to my knowledge 4x4 has worked up until today. The lever is stuck in 4x4 position yet is 100% in 2WD. Any thought. I looked under the tractor and everything seemed normal
Gear and HST have their place, I run a gear B2320 now. But I do have a nice FORD 1210 two speed hydrostatic.
ETA: The Ford Boggs down in heavy grass. Thanks for video Neil
It may not put down the same numbers on a load cell, but the ability of a hydro to infinitely adjust the power output allows you to better control wheelspin. I have used dozens of different tractors and wheel spin is always the limiting factor on your ability to pull.
Gear tractors shine when you're pulling a heavy steady load, like ground engaging implements.
The hydro will run circles around any gear tractor doing loader work.
Different options for different tasks.
My 1992 1920 shuttle shift Ford would out pull either of my Kubota 5030 or 5740 HSTC. I hooked a root while plowing a neighbors garden and the 1920 broke one of the 7/8 hitch pins. One of the best tractors I’ve owned.
Reading through the comments makes me think that many people don't seem to realize that each design is optimized for a given performance range, as well as ideal workload.
First things first. Both will do a good job at forward and back type work, so both are sutable for loader work. That being said, if you're looking for a tractor for primarily loader work, with minimal heavy drawbar work, the hydro will most likely be the model for you. It's capable of decent towing, as well as draft work with a plow or subsoiler/ripper. But it's optimized for constant forward/reverse usage.
If,on the other hand you're looking for a tractor that can still do a good job with a loader, but is going to spend most of it's time doing tillage, mowing, planting/harvesting type work, then the gear transmission will be a better fit.
It all comes down to actually knowing what you need the tractor for.
I have a question, the hydrostatic drive uses a type of oil to run the motors for the wheel right? Oil is uncompressable so is it possible to generate close to infinite torque in a perfect world? Or are there hard limits exluding stuff like your low and high range gears of course. Greetings from belgium
I want to see project farm do a similar test
The reason for the higher gear drive numbers is due to the shock load. The first geared pulled there was a very hard shock load, the second pull had a shock load as well, but not as pronounced.
Great video! It really doesn't matter if the gear drive out pulls the hydro IF you can't get traction! I had a 20 hp John Deere lawn mower (430) and when using the full 20hp, I simply spun, not accomplishing any work at all!
Mechanical coupling beats out a fluid coupling. They both have their pro's and con's.
Exactly which is why torque converters have a clutch that locks up in automatic transmissions. Fluid couplers are great for stop and go. But once your moving mechanical is superior.
This is not true either. An automatic will beat a manual transmission in many tests. The best off road crawlers use autos. The hydro in this test isn't capable of performing a pulling test in high. This test video was worthless. Not to mention torque converters have enourmous mechanical advantages over gears. 2 to 1 in many cases.
Anymanusa this test showed my issue with hydros pulling trees out.
@@highlanderc while you may have had an issue, I cannot be convinced of any such issue when the test in the video was performed in gears other than low. My tractor will spin the tires all day long in low. Are you saying yours stalls out when trying to pull stumps? There are bulldozers that run hydrostatic transmissions.
Anymanusa yes. Mine stalled just like this video in low of course when trying to push a tiny stump. I wonder if there are mods for the hydro transmissions to make it work like a dozer that you mention!
Fun test though not many or any are doing this thanks for sharing.
Do it again in low range please.
Why? Just to see tires spinning? What's the point?
Yes please do it in low range !!!
You get max torque right before the wheels break loose. You have to drop it down.
If you didn't break the wheels loose you didn't record the max torque. All the gear reductions/ratios only go into putting torque to the wheels. I would expect no difference on grass. Now if you could stall the engines at the lowest setting without wheel slip then the gear drive would do better simply because you aren't dissipating energy in the form of heat like the HST does.
I love your videos by the way. I am an engineer for a diesel engine manufacturer. I did performance engineering, after treatment engineering, and now field service engineering. If you ever want to run a test idea by me please send me an email. If so I'll send an email to your work email, just let me know in the comments.
Any one who uses one of today’s modern ultra lite utility tractors realizes that the type of transmission is not the limiting factor while pulling but a lack
Of traction
@@mikrg291 this guy gets it.
@@javery50 not really, anyone who has tried pulling a 7 foot haybine knows that traction is the least of your concern, try pulling one with a hst tractor, first time you try going up a hill you’re done. If the haybine takes 30 horse to drive and the tractor takes 20 horse to pull itself up a hill and you only have 40 you’re done, but if the same tractor with a gear trans takes 10 horse to go up the hill you’re in business.
Is the PTO horsepower the same power that goes into the drive Wheels?
Lots of people asking what the Hydro would pull in low - answer is exactly the same as gear. Assuming similar weight, similar tires, and similar psi, you're always limited by traction.
At plowing speeds, the pull force is identical (limited by tire slip). The gear will use less fuel, and / or deliver more power to the PTO due to less parasitic loss. That's the real advantage. Disadvantage is clutch wear for loader type of work.
Want to bet?
i grew with standard gears on my tractors love them i hate hst. in the last 15 yrs i think we have replaced one clutch maybe. gears pull stronger and i personally feel like i have more control between gear selection throttle clutching and independent brakes. also i think older tractors are just flat out better, the tie rods on my old ford are 2x as big as a tractor of similar size and hp over recent yrs, just everything was built bigger and heavier.
Could ya redo the test both in Lowest possible gear and 4 wheel drive and diff locked (max pull) (and on a service that is less slippy if possible - hard dirt or pavement)
those factors alone improve the testing by 300% maybe not lab perfect but way more real world than the way neil decided to video this "test"
Well that was an easy one. Of course gears engaged are more powerful than a wet sump clutch system. I still have the HST for ease of use though.
What does a wet sump clutch have to do with either the gear drive or HST tractors in this video? Neither have a wet sump clutch. The gear drive tractor has a dry clutch and the HST is...well, an HST. It uses a pump and fluid coupling system.
Exactly wet sump is a atv thing ....
First off easy win for gear drive because the HST wouldn’t let the tires dig/ spin. Basic tractor pulling right there, no spin no power output. You don’t buy a HST for pulling power, your not going to go plow with it, it’s for ease of use, gears drive is just better for pulling regardless of high or low range
l2501 with gear drive has a transmission powered pto, which means when you push the clutch in to change direction the pto shuts off, which is less then ideal when bush hogging.
Could you retry this with a pair of new Holland's? They have 3 range gear drive transmissions.
The clutch is a point to focus on. It's hard on a clutch if it's not fully in gear. In this case, the 8 gears forward and 8 reverse or the neutral gear. If your application it a lot of speed changes like yard work HST is more advantageous. But also look at how the HST handels transmission heat. Long steady pulls like fieldwork gears have the advantage.
💥 That was very interesting, I didn’t think there would be such a big difference.
*keep on tractoring!*
I know this is an old video I’m just coming across, but there is one key point missing from comments. Piston motors have very low starting efficiency and torque (unless you are using a bent axis motor).
To get a true max drawbar measurement the test should be done on pavement with tractor moving first. Think of a situation where you are pulling a heavy load and start climbing a hill. In a situation like that the efficiency of the motor is about 40% higher and power transmission to the ground is significantly higher.
Yes getting a load moving is critical, but ever 74hp and smaller HST tractor I’ve ever operated or tested can break traction very easily which then means the tractor is traction limited and not power limited.
Btw I’m a hydraulic application engineer, with ag. Engineering degree. I’ve literally performed the ASAE and SAE tests in controlled environments. Many many many times.
I run an MX5200, HST, BB2572 Box Blade, about 8 to 10 hrs a day. For me, grading BOC, and general fine grade work, the HST is the deal! I'm on my 8th different tractor at my job, site work, road base crew work. I started with a 5100, 2572 box. Had 3 or 4 of those, I've put 3000 hours on one of those, and the only problem encountered, was the bushings on the speed control pedal, @1800 hrs. My ultimate favorite, is the MX5200, with a BB3578 box, water in the rear tires, and that's it. Ultimate fine grade weapon. Enjoy your vids, live life, 6 ft. At a time! #Tractortrash
Gear drive most of my life, hst certainly has it advantages!
I have a MX5200 HST and I would have liked to seen the comparison in low on both and like others suggested, maybe do this on pavement instead of grass.
For many people the Hydro the advantage for their home(stead) because they may not pull anything harder than the Roto-tiller or push harder than some snow or occasionally put new gravel on the driveway. For mowing lawns and the pasture, or cleaning out the horse stalls the Hydro is probably a better fit. If you want to do real tillage with plow, disc, and harrow, or you want to pull logs out of your own wood lot, then the Gear Drive will always be the best option. Gear drive is the more efficient way to get HP to the Ground, but jobs that require frequent F/R, and/or speed changes may make the Hydro the better option not just for ease of use, but save the clutches. For what we do here at our little Kentucky Farm our 2 smallest tractors (17 + 24 HP) are Hydro and the others (33, 49, and 120) are Gear Drive. There are Gear Transmissions that have F/N/R, a reverser that makes direction changes much easier for the operator and the machine is designed for it too
From what I’m understanding the hydrostat transmission if something blows or breaks and it would be way more expensive to replace than the clutch. And the gear drive sounds better and can pull more?
Correct, gear is more difficult to drive and more likely to fail than hydrostatic.
A 2001 B7500 gear drive, is that pretty similar to a cars manual transmission?
Great video Neil.. where a hydro really shines is when your doing fine detailed work or loader work.. it’s not very enjoyable moving buckets of material all day long with a clutch on your left foot.. you’ll realize your left leg will start to be in quite a lot of pain after an 8 hour shift and the level of precision with the loader/bucket is not nearly as good.. but a good operator can easily overcome these obstacles with a gear driven tractor and if your anything like me you may even prefer to use gear driven over a hydro most of the time.
Surprised I missed this one 👍🏻
I thought the gear drive would win, but didn't expect it to be by that much either. But for most general work, hobby farms and loader work in tight spaces, the hydrastat will be the best choice. Pulling plows through long fields etc, then a gear drive is probably the choice most people will make.
Thanks Neal. That was pretty interesting. I am not super mechanical, but I don't work my tractor in high gear. Maybe do the test again but in low, and on a more consistent surface? Grass is a wild card, I think. I'd like to see that. Thanks!
I agree with several here. Should’ve tried the HST in low. The jolting of the gear drive also probably spiked the reading. If both tractors go until they break traction that should mean they pull the same. Need to do another test on asphalt where the HST would possibly bog out before it loses traction. I’m assuming the gear drive would still win though.
I just purchased a l2501 hst and in low range its a beast will fill the box blade to full and spilling over even does well in med range i believe the hst can do just as good as gear drive in low range and prob pretty close in mid range either way glad i went with kubota though the l series is a great tractor i just like the 2501 for that old tractor feeling with no emissions junk
Got a gear drive Kubota L new last year zero regrets absolutely hate that whinny hydro trans they have there place but not in my garage
Interesting test and comparison . I guess what your gonna do with it will decide which is best from your application, I have a L4701 Hydro with R4’s . I have all the power and torque I need regardless of what I’m doing. Had I not had a gravel drive that’s a quarter mile long I probably would have bought a smaller tractor, which I was borrowing ( I hate borrowing) to grade before, so when I got my own, I did not want one with the shortcomings of a smaller lighter tractor, now when I grade there is no screwing around, the Kubota monster knocks it out and don’t take all day to do it, nuff said.
Does the hydrostatic have fail safety faults built into the system, to prevent pump damage or engine stall?
Yes
I was guessing it would be around a 14% difference. I saw a video on a manual vs. automatic in a jeep wrangler where the manual put down 40 more horsepower which is equivalent to around 14%. I understand that a hydro-static is not a car automatic but they are both fluid drive systems when you really at a basic level. Very impressive experiment.
A car torque converter operates very differently. It uses a turbine, while a tractor has a positive displacement piston based pump. Also the losses probably don't scale the same. The gear drive is more efficient though and while the logic behind your answer is off, the answer is probably pretty close.
@@court2379 True. They are very different pieces of machinery. The point i was getting at was exactly what you said about the gear drive being more efficient at transferring power. I think it would be interesting to see how these drive systems compare on a dyno.
Love my Kubota b7500 hydro and my Kubota g1800 hydro. Gear drive and hydro have there place but you have to look at the big picture. there are more and more Equipment being built with hydro transmissions from mowers to farm tractors to bulldozer's. I personally like the infinitely variable speed range from zero to top speed, just can't get that with a manual transmission.
I realize they're to different class of tractors but back in the 90's the 4 & 500 series Wheelhorse tractors were pretty stought units and if you read the manual on the rototiller it recommended the use of the gear drive tractor apposed to the Hydro. Reasons unknown to me
The old “Manual vs. Automatic” debate. Modern automatic transmissions are able to out perform human performance with shifting in cars and trucks, but the manual gives you the ultimate control and the solid mechanical connection. No replacing that. Very good video.
I may be stupid, but why didn't the HST ever spin the wheels like the manual did?
I would have pushed the HST to the point of spinning the wheels for a more realistic comparison.
So all things pretty even the gear is stronger than the hst? But the hst is easy and cheaper to repair? So I should go with hst and buy more hp. Is that a logical solution? I'll pay more up front but would save on repairs down the road maybe.
This video needs the context of all the others that I posted. The hydrostatic is the better choice for most people.
Gear drive model may be heavier allowing for more traction?
Downhill breaking is best with gear drive as well the engine will help maintain speed. Also you can get constant travel speed. Hydro is nice for loader work or a lot of back and fourth. I wish you would have done the test in all the ranges on both machines for comparison.
Watching you take the gear shift and drive it man what a way to burn a clutch
Absolutely ! Pulling power needs to be done on pavement with same or similar tires and pressure.
I could have told you the gear drive would have out pulled the hydro by quite a bit before you even tested it. If you remember the old Hydro 70 tractors back in the day were basically a 666 with a different rear half. PTO HP and drawbar HP is about the same between the two, but you need to push the hydro another 400 rpm higher (17% more RPM) just to match the gear drive 666 and with double the fuel usage to boot.
Hydro's have their place though. They offer the ability to infinitely adjust your ground speed without needing a gazillion clutch packs in a power shift which wears out. If the ability to forward and reverse with infinite speed adjust-ability is paramount over stump pulling torque then the hydro is a good choice. If you need the power you want a gear drive transmission.
I grew up on a farm when Deer first introduced its hydro trans (a long time ago). Pulling sugarcane trailers out of a muddy field with 100+ HP the hydro would bog before getting stuck but if you put a plow behind it they would not pull like a manual trans and also clutches on a manual is cheeper to replace than a clutch pack on a hydro. I own a Kubota 23HP now for gardening and I would not have a hydro on a small HP tractor unless all I was doing was cutting grass with it. Hydro looses a lot of HP.
it is literally a 1 hp difference.